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Newspaper Roundup: The "Daily Mail" Seeks Atlantis in Spain, While the "Boston Globe" Hunts the Westford Knight

11/17/2018

51 Comments

 
​On the edges of history, fanciful stories never really die. They pass into pop culture folklore, endlessly recycled from one article to the next. Why? That’s a great question. As the recent Chapman University survey showed, one reason is that anywhere from a plurality to a majority of Americans believe in false history like Atlantis, ancient astronauts, and their ilk. The other reason is that these stories become the equivalent of the “bus-plunge” story—a familiar narrative that can be used reliably to fill time and space with a minimum of effort. The “bus-plunge” story is named for a distressingly frequent feature in newspapers of the twentieth century, which would fill blank spaces on their pages with small stories about buses plunging off of cliffs and bridges, usually in South America and India. As morbid as it sounds, these events happened (and continue to happen) with such frequency that editors could guarantee that they will always have one on hand to fill in any blank spaces, changing only the dateline and the number of victims. Atlantis, aliens, etc. are similarly easy features that require little effort.
​To that end, it was no surprise that The Daily Mail—as several regular readers informed me—latched on to a recent claim by Merlin Burrows, a scanning and surveying outfit, that they have discovered proof of Atlantis in Spain, where a series of cable TV documentaries over the past five years have placed it. 
Maritime historian Tim Akers, head of research at Merlin Burrows, said not only had they discovered Atlantis, but also found the people were incredibly advanced.
 
He said 'laboratory analysis' of material recovered from Spain showed evidence of a type of cement not seen before, as well as ancient advanced metallurgy.
​Akers claims that a blue-green residue found near Doñana National Park, north of Cadiz, represents proof of Plato’s truthful account of Atlantis. “Plato describes in detail a patina on the buildings and structures of the cities and temples making up this complex,” he said. I believe he is referring to a passage in the Critias in which Plato preposterously asserts that all of the walls ringing Atlantis were plated in metals, and all of the temples with precious metals: “The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum. … . All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold.” (trans. Benjamin Jowett). As you can see, Plato doesn’t speak of a patina, nor of just one covering but rather of incredible—literally—amounts of metal (even if just leaf) covering every surface of whole walls ringing the city.
 
As the Daily Mail dryly noted, many of the ruins that Merlin Burrows identifies as belonging to Atlantis are known or suspected Greco-Roman sites from Classical Antiquity. Akers has radically re-dated them to the last Ice Age and alleged that the structured he used satellite imagery to discover “match exactly Plato’s dimensions with no deviation.” Given that the length of Greek stadia varied greatly over Antiquity (modern estimates range from around 157 meters to more than 200 meters), it will be a neat trick to hear how he determined the correct length to use for such a match. Akers and his team also declared that Neolithic ruins in Spain were the eroded ruins of Atlantean buildings.
 
Akers declared these stone age ruins “the peak of human life on earth.” Insert your own joke here.
 
Naturally, Merlin Burrows have produced a documentary about their “discovery” and openly told the Mail that their purpose was to “secure funding for further research”—in other words, to get paid. Indeed, the company believe that they can successfully exploit Atlantis as an economic draw for all of Spain’s Seville region. They did not, however, answer the obvious question of how a powerful and militarily puissant Athens supposedly existed in 9600 BCE when there was no fully developed city before Mycenaean times and only small settlements before that. Apparently, Plato is only reliable when his details match one’s prejudices.
 
Meanwhile, a newspaper closer to home recycled yet another old chestnut this week. The Boston Globe delivered another in a fairly steady series of newspaper stories covering the so-called Westford Knight, a weird story that refuses to die. As I reported three years ago, the earlier accounts of the supposed carving of a medieval knight on a slab of rock in Westford, Massachusetts do not actually refer to either a knight or to clear evidence of intentional carving:
This claim may well be false, since the Westford image was first described in an 1874 gazetteer of Massachusetts … : “The mineral called ‘andalusite’ is found here; and an immense ledge which crops out near the Centre has upon its surface ridges furrowed in former times by glacial forces. There is upon its face a rude figure, supposed to have been cut by some Indian artist.”

However, it is unclear from the gazetteer entry whether the “rude figure” is actually the punched “sword” hilt or refers to the imaginary human figure projected onto the glacial ridges, as the text implies. If that latter, it would actually support the idea that the sword hilt was punched at a later date. Indeed, in the clearer description in Edwin Hodgman’s 1883 History of Westford, there is no mention of the sword-hilt at all, and it is quite easy to read his comments as referring to an imagined face appearing in the random grooves left by a glacier: “A broad ledge, which crops out near the house of William Kittredge, has upon its surface grooves made by glaciers in some far-off geological age. Rude outlines of the human face have been traced upon it, and the figure is said to be the work of Indians.” In both the 1874 and 1883 accounts, the obviously manmade features of the current carving are not mentioned explicitly, and in both cases the authors heavily imply by placing the “rude” outline so close to a discussion of glacial activity that the image is imaginary and the product of local fancy and legend.

My conclusion would be that local people in Westford imagined a human figure in the glacial markings, and sometime after 1883 someone “improved” upon it with the pecked sword hilt, perhaps under the influence of the then-popular hypothesis that the Viking Vinland was Massachusetts. 
​Indeed, there is some testimony that the “sword” hilt on the figure was actually intended to be a peace pipe and was carved around the time I referenced above.
 
Anyway, the usual suspects appear in the Globe article, notably novelist David Brody, a longtime advocate of the Westford Knight’s medieval origins. “I’m blown away by how much evidence there is,” Brody told the Globe, despite their being no medieval artifacts ever uncovered in connection with the rock. “The overwhelming weight of the evidence in this case points to the authenticity of the legend,” Brody said. There is not a single piece of evidence that Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney ever left Europe, let alone led an expedition to Massachusetts. Those facts which do remain about the only document from medieval times used to support this claim, the so-called Zeno narrative, actually refute it. The Zeno narrative clearly states that the character identified as Sinclair in the 1780s—Zichmni—traveled only to Greenland. The documentary record contracts key facts of the Zeno narrative, which, to be clear, its compiler admitted to recreating from memory and fancy in the 1580s after allegedly destroying the original, supposedly dated to the 1390s.
 
The Globe compared the myth of the knight to the Roswell UFO crash—an implausible myth sustained by a culture of belief, and, we might add, cynical or sensational media coverage.
 
One Westford resident summed up the appeal of the legend in an accidentally revealing interview response: “I like the romance of the story. I like the connection to Scotland. And I like Westford being featured as a very important place.” In short, the appeal of the story is (a) fantasy, (b) Eurocentrism, and (c) local pride. That basically sums up three quarters of the fringe claims we find associated with the out of the way corners of America. Brody concurs: “If this legend is true, it rewrites the history books, and Westford is really the first place we know of that Europeans came to explore,” Brody said. Except it isn’t. The Vikings were active in Newfoundland hundreds of years earlier.
 
I’ll give the Globe credit: Their article appropriately emphasized the skeptical viewpoint and accurately reported the complete and total lack of evidence for the wild claims made for the Westford Knight.
51 Comments
Skeptical Book
11/17/2018 08:44:20 am

Jeffrey Max Henry, The Signpost: The Evolution of The Westford Knight (CreateSpace Independent Publishing 2015)

Reply
Jim
11/17/2018 09:28:45 am

Good work Jason, you have nicely tied Atlantis to the Westford Knight. Lol.
Since the knight is carved in andalusite and Atlantis happens to be in Andalusia Spain,,,,,,,, well, you do the math.

Reply
Doc Rock
11/17/2018 10:27:44 am

"western lands"= WESTford

HELLO!!!


Reply
T. Franke link
11/17/2018 10:31:32 am

And again another "Atlantis" finding. Quite often in recent weeks. We are approaching the cinema release of "Aquaman", aren't we? (December 2018)

Reply
Frank
11/17/2018 02:08:35 pm

There is never enough of a "good" thing. And we are still awaiting for your Atlantis find. But don't let the Sicilian Mafia find out, as they will squeeze you for a percentage of the proceeds, "fire" insurance payments protection for your contribution to human knowledge, by way of a book on Atlantis in Sicily, which will risk going up in flames, since it will the "hottest" yet, on the finding of Atlantis.

Franke, you may not be a total idiot, as J Scales make you out to be, but for sure you are a complete hypocrite. Give it up, your Atlantis find claim will not even be considered as the worst one to date, since it is not even "good" enough to be that bad!

Reply
T. Franke link
11/17/2018 05:16:21 pm

FRANK, wherever I dare to write a small statement, you immediately show up and write denigrating off-topic texts against me. You really work hard to denigrate my ideas which -- according to you -- need no denigration.

What is your purpose? Why not stalking e.g. E.P. Grondine in the same way?

E.P. Grondine
11/18/2018 11:00:02 am

@Franke and Frank -

Ignoring Shit-for-Brains' distractions -

It is a common phenomenon to give naturally occurring tragedies some kind of divine moral meaning. That is what so clearly marks Plato's moral fable as a moral fable.

Then you get down to the particulars of that moral fables construction, the components Plato used to write it. But I am less interested in Plato than I am in Homer's Dorian confusion.

There are contemporary documents to read, after all.

But another "thing" is impact tsunami's in the Atlantic Ocean, and that is what we are dealing with here. And the one about 1,000 BCE was not the only one of these: there were others.

We have metal deposits at this site that undoubtedly were exploited since the Bronze Age.

So here's an idea - Determine what actually occurred, and then try to analyze Plato's moral fable.

PS - I am hoping that Jason provides us with a nice translation of Al Idrisi, which will likely point us to sites in Morocco.

T. Franke link
11/18/2018 02:07:33 pm

EP Grondine:

a) I already taught you about the special character of a "fable". The Atlantis story may be an invention and it may be a morality tale, but it surely is not a "fable". If you do not react on this argument, it makes no sense talking to you.

See again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fable
"Fable is a literary genre: a succinct fictional story, in prose or verse, that features animals, legendary creatures, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature that are anthropomorphized (given human qualities, such as the ability to speak human language)"

b) Let me remind you of Professor Wilhelm Brandenstein's argument that the natural disaster cannot be meant as a morality tale since the "good" guys in primeval Athens are destroyed, too, according to Plato's Atlantis dialogues.

E.P. Grondine
11/17/2018 12:51:41 pm

It is strange to watch people who have no idea of the manuscripts of Timaeus and Critias hang on every letter of them.

As anyone can see, there are major stone structures at this site in SW Spain. These likely date from ca. 1,000 BCE, and not 10,400 BCE. Note carefully the Rio Tinto operations nearby. The metal trade from this area also likely explains a number of features of the Iberian scripts.

I'd like to note here that "Cypro-Minoan" writings have been found in ancient Philistia, and they are likely Pelasgasian. The distribution of these inscriptions explain the silver and gold bowls found at Etruscan sites quite nicely I hope to do some theme analysis on those bowls theme this winter.

WTF did the griffins signify? These griffins were a common bronze age motif, and have absolutely no explanation.

MIT now has a computer program to analyze ancient scripts, a program which should be of great use in doing phonetic loading studies. There are many unread European bronze age scripts awaiting analysis, as well as Etruscan itself.

Well, Plato came up with a great writer's device. Throw in a fabulously wealthy city, and there you go.






Reply
American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/17/2018 06:29:16 pm

Because T. Franke requested it, I will say "no stranger than watching a fake Injun hawking fake Injun hand-crafted sleeves for Bic lighters."

You do talk a lot of nonsense and use a lot of bad language while fitting Hal's critique of Jason: someone who thinks he's an expert on a lot of things.

Reply
Frank
11/17/2018 08:13:13 pm

Thanks Disco Dan, but you put it mildly, although besides being appropriate, it was also entertaining, your use of the fake Injun as a parallel. I would leave it that, if Thorwald was merely dealing in throwaway Bic lighters to light the fire for sending us his fake Atlantean smoke signals.

Franke sees others pointing out his hypocrisy as stalking. He cannot get it that he is the stalker. He is the stalker of other's Atlantis claims. He is the one that insults any of his "colleagues" who have a different take than his on Atlantis. I can see someone who is a skeptic ridiculing anyone placing any credibility to a real Atlantis, but when one of the same faith, Franke, does it, it is plain and pure hypocrisy.

Franke asks me what is my purpose, when it comes to mentioning or addressing him. But all along I have made it clear, and he still does not get it. His pompous personality gets in the way of his understanding. And not even a very large and purely flat mirror will be of use when he gazes at his own image there. He will not accept the distorted image he projects thereon, as he sees himself for what he is not. He does not see that perfect image of an hypocrite that the perfect mirror projects back to him.

Stop posting your hypocrisy, and dumb claims on Atlantis, then see how easily I will ignore you.

And since I was specifically tasked by "higher spirits" to be solely your "guardian angel", E.P. Grondine must pray for a guardian angel of his/her own. But you, my dear Franke, are in more dire need, by far.

E.P. Grondine
11/17/2018 09:18:24 pm

Dear Shit-for-Brains -

I know what I know.

Now you and anyone else can try and ignore the evidence at this site. That is not really my problem, but yours.

I have given you my opinion of Plato. Fell free to differ.
I don't care.

But finally, I have gone through my DNA with you, you lying bastard. I remain what I am - 1/8 Shawnee descent.

If you have any positive contribution to make, do so.
I have yet to see any from you yet.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/17/2018 09:52:57 pm


It's always the pottymouth with you isn't it Chief?

"E.P. GRONDINE
5/15/2018 04:33:50 pm
Dear Dickwad -

Since you won't get up from your computer and go out and get laid, may I suggest that as an alternative you go fuck yourself."

"E.P. GRONDINE
3/21/2018 02:15:48 pm
Dear Dickwad,
Dickwad, there is a satellite I need to get launched, and I do not personally have a couple hundred million dollars lying around to do it. I also need to get some people fired, and since I still am able to type, I will continue to work on these problems."

The book is "Man-on-Man Impact in the Americas" right? Remind us again, who's your publisher?

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/17/2018 10:00:30 pm

And DNA tests don't work like that. You're just passing on a possibly made-up family story about a recent ancestor whom the census taker recorded as White.

For all anyone knows you taking a DNA test is made-up too. Much like your made-up tales of 7 and 8 foot tall Injuns in the Northeast of the U.S. when the Plains Indians are documented as the tallest Indians.

Note: Here "Indians" = real people and
"Injuns" = made-up people

E.P. Grondine
11/18/2018 10:34:45 am

Dear Shit-for-Brains

The Andaste, who were 7 and1/2 foot tall, were genocidally killed off by the Jamestown colonists in 1676. Their tall skeletons have been in the "scientific" literature for a long while. See Jason Jarell and Sarah Farmer's book "The Age of Giants". Your personal ignorance should not be my problem

My family stories were recorded by contemporaries, and match the DNA results. It appears that I am going to have to pay for a lawyer to straighten out the Dennings. Contrary to their wishes, people of native descent do exist east of the Mississippi River, and Keely's managed to piss them all off. But then again, your personal ignorance should not be my problem.

Now if you stopped playing with that worm you think of as your pecker, perhaps your vision would improve enough to see the stone structures shown in the photos. Your personal blindness should not be my problem.

So to conclude this morning's exchange, get up from your keyboard, go out, meet some people, find a nice guy, settle down, get married.

No Chris Wilson bic lighter cover for you.


T. Franke link
11/18/2018 10:36:59 am

FRANK,

your approach is based on the assumption that everybody looking for Atlantis is -- without exception -- ridiculous. Because there allegedly is unevitable evidence that Atlantis is only an invention. Therefore, you accept scholars ridiculing Atlantis searchers (even then a good idea?), and therefore, you see me (and others following the same historical-critical approach) on the same level as any silly Atlantis searchers following a literalist reading of Plato's dialogues.

But this only shows your lack of understanding of the problems connected with Plato's Atlantis. You are so sure about Atlantis being an invention that you behave like a dogmatist. You think you do not have to present any consistent arguments for your claim. Any argument will do for you, and if you are pointed to contradictions between the arguments, you only laugh about me like a dictator laughs about his victims when they accuse him to act against humanity. You think you do not have to examine what is put forward by any Atlantis searcher, because it can only be ridiculous, in your eyes, from the outset.

IMHO, this is not a scientific behaviour.

You failed totally to present any striking evidence that Atlantis must be and can only be an invention by Plato. You only put forward the unsupported claim that the wise reader can "see" it. (Here we are close to your religious reading of Plato which rejects a historical-critical reading). Or you rely on the majority of scholars (but there are dissenters there, be careful!) And you failed to present any argument against my arguments by which I wanted to present evidence that certain arguments of Atlantis skeptics do not work, so that the question of Atlantis is an open question.

Your rationality is overwhelmed by your wrong self-confidence.

It is absolutely necessary to distinguish various levels of quality among Atlantis searchers (as well as various levels of quality among Atlantis skeptics). It is YOUR "pompous personality" (your choice of words), not mine, which gets in the way of YOUR understanding.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/18/2018 01:22:32 pm

So where can I go to see one of these skeletons? Oh, that's right, nowhere!

Chief, I think any reasonable person would agree that your fascination with my penis is at best unseemly. You need to tend your own garden, unless the sugar diabetes has deprived you of one of life's great joys. No Samuel Pepys Asterisk Award for you!

Jim
11/18/2018 01:33:08 pm

E.P. Grondine:

"Their tall skeletons have been in the "scientific" literature for a long while. See Jason Jarell and Sarah Farmer's book "The Age of Giants"

Jason Jarell and Sarah Farmer, lol, so now you are using wingnuts from Ancient Origins and Ancient Aliens to support your giant native nonsense.
Did you know cats can talk ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cat_in_the_Hat

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/did-the-smithsonian-try-to-cover-up-giant-skeletons-in-west-virginia-youll-never-guess-what-the-facts-say

T. Franke link
11/18/2018 02:05:04 pm

American Cool "Disco" Dan

Surely it is possible even for you to realize that this is not a "hard" argument against the existence of anything. You should put forward some positive argument like "This is a literary device used often in Plato's time" or "This makes it clear that it is meant to deceive Plato's contemporaries" or something like this. Unfortunately, there are no such clearly working arguments.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/18/2018 03:28:40 pm

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Willis?

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/19/2018 09:20:23 am

"The Andaste, who were 7 and1/2 foot tall, were genocidally killed off by the Jamestown colonists in 1676."

Jamestown? Bumbaclot! Settlers from Virginia traveled as far as New York to "genocidally kill" those Indians? Sounds like a lot of work and the ramblings of a mentally ill old man.

You claim to know a lot of 7 foot tall Injuns alive now but cannot show us any of them. Fade away.

Indians = real
Injuns = not real

E.P. Grondine
11/19/2018 10:34:15 am

Yes, Jason and Sarah use "fringe" channels to publicizze their book. That is what is available. This presents them with a lot of difficulties. But read the information they have collected.

Or don't read it, and read the standard text on Adena, Dragoo and Neuman's "Mounds for the Dead". They faced the problem of accounting for the large skeletons they had excavated.

You know, the Watusi exist and are accepted. What is the problem with tall and large Native Americans? If you meet Cherokee and Osage, you will meet tall and large individuals.
If you dig an Adena grave, you will encounter tall and large skeletons.

Those are the facts. If your theory does not account for them, then it is likely that your theory is wrong.

Jim
11/19/2018 11:55:52 am

Grondine:

"Yes, Jason and Sarah use "fringe" channels to publicizze their book. That is what is available. This presents them with a lot of difficulties. But read the information they have collected."

Bullshit, you only choose to agree with them because they espouse your own nonsensical views.
Gimme a break, what are there actual qualifications ?
Did they attend a University, or even finish high school ?
Read their word soup bios.

"About The Authors

"Jason Jarrell is an investigative historian, avocational archaeologist, and public speaker. Other than ancient history, his studies include philosophy, comparative mythology, religion, and depth psychology."

"Sarah Farmer is a multi-faceted researcher and writer exploring ancient peoples, ancient organic technology, neolithic lifestyles, modern methods of viable living, cosmological paradigms, ancient and modern modes of healing, the historical interactions between plants and man, Biblical history and linguistics, as well as any other subjects that enter her intuitive kinesphere."

https://www.paradigmcollision.com/about

Lol, "avocational archaeologist",,,,who isn't ?

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/19/2018 12:14:19 pm

Another screed from the day ward at "the home".

"E.P. GRONDINE
11/19/2018 10:34:15 am
Yes, Jason and Sarah use "fringe" channels to publicizze their book. That is what is available. This presents them with a lot of difficulties. But read the information they have collected."

So it's the same as you flogging your book here?

"Or don't read it, and read the standard text on Adena, Dragoo and Neuman's "Mounds for the Dead". They faced the problem of accounting for the large skeletons they had excavated."

They face the problem of photographing the skeletons with a yardstick or ruler next to them.

"You know, the Watusi exist and are accepted."

As the New York Times reported in 1964:

'--Their average height, though well above the general norm, is no more than 5 feet 9 inches, but individuals reach more than 7 feet. The former king, Charles III Rudahagwa, was 6 feet 9 inches, and a famous dancer and high jumper—so famous his portrait was printed on the banknotes—measured 7 feet 5 inches.--'

Note the average height.

And Yao Ming is tall for a Chinaman. So what?

"What is the problem with tall and large Native Americans?"

The problem, Chief, is that you claim to know a bunch of them but cannot produce ANY.

"If you meet Cherokee and Osage, you will meet tall and large individuals."

James Garner and Johnny Cash, both Cherokee, were 6'2". So what? George Washington was 6'4".

"If you dig an Adena grave, you will encounter tall and large skeletons."

No, you won't.

"Those are the facts. If your theory does not account for them, then it is likely that your theory is wrong."

The fact remains that in the 18th and 19th centuries the Plains Indians were the tallest Indians in the Americas.

Ira Hayes
11/19/2018 03:26:53 pm

AmericanDiscoNegro speakum with forked tongue about Johnny Cash. He pure paleface, no Injun.

AmericanDiscoNegro listen too much Bitter Tears album, drink too much Thunderbird.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/19/2018 04:03:04 pm

The real Ira Hayes died drunk, face down in a puddle.

Handsome Lake
11/19/2018 05:33:21 pm

Ira dead, Johnny Cash still no Injun, AmericanDiscoNegro heap big dipshit, too much smoke from passing crack pipe in his Teepee to read Wikipedia.

Dan
11/19/2018 06:15:40 pm

I must ask you all to kindly refrain from talking any variety of shit about Ira Hayes.

Or Johnny Cash.

You boys stop it now; You hear?

Kal
11/18/2018 03:46:04 pm

Searching for Atlantis in modern times is ridiculous, (opinion), but carry on. The same goes for searching for the Ark or for searching for ghosts, bigfoot, aliens etc.

And Jason, it seems your commenters are entrenched in the something to prove thing. When they could be doing that elsewhere on their own time. Proves you're getting famous among your fans. Yikes. Next thing you know, they'll come to conventions and pester you at the book signing booth about 'their version of the myth', or something.

And terse foul language in the comments does show a genuine tact issue. In debate, it is not about shouting down and insulting the other, but presenting reasoned facts.

Altantis in Spain is not a fact, therefore, no argument can sustain itself about that.

Reply
American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/18/2018 04:21:15 pm

I agree with you that Chief's language is offensive.

Reply
T. Franke link
11/18/2018 04:43:37 pm

The current state of this discussion forum is not suitable to have constructive discussions about the topic set by the blog article.

But I do not know a solution. When I thought about starting a discussion forum (years ago), I soon came to the conclusion that it is much work to cultivate it. So I stopped the project. I do not have the time.

My current plan is to stop posting here. Further posting makes not much sense, at least not for me. I offer arguments and knowledge but rarely do I get back anything. I will concentrate on reading the blog articles without commenting. The blog is great, this forum's community is not.

Reply
American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/18/2018 05:04:43 pm

"My current plan is to stop posting here." = I will post here forever. Look at me! Look at me!

"I offer arguments and knowledge but rarely do I get back anything." = I repeatedly pimp my website and crackpot ideas and get only negative feedback.

T. Franke link
11/18/2018 05:37:32 pm

American Cool "Disco" Dan

O my dear AmericanPlunderHead, I will really miss you! You taught me an English vocabulary I never knew it existed! Sometimes you even find things you did not search.

Harvey the White Rabbit
11/18/2018 07:50:11 pm

Entirely agree with you. AMERICAN COOL "Disco" DAN/AMERICANEGRO, has to a great degree wrecked civil discourse on this blog. But the blame should be placed where it belongs. Jason Colavito is too "busy" and has "A life outside this blog" to be concerned with policing this blog and it's content and posters.

P.G. Grondine
11/18/2018 07:55:53 pm

"E.P. GRONDINE
5/15/2018 04:33:50 pm
Dear Dickwad -

Since you won't get up from your computer and go out and get laid, may I suggest that as an alternative you go fuck yourself."

Frank
11/19/2018 10:26:04 am


T. Franke
link
11/18/2018 04:43:37 pm

The current state of this discussion forum is not suitable to have constructive discussions about the topic set by the blog article.

But I do not know a solution. When I thought about starting a discussion forum (years ago), I soon came to the conclusion that it is much work to cultivate it. So I stopped the project. I do not have the time.

My current plan is to stop posting here. Further posting makes not much sense, at least not for me. I offer arguments and knowledge but rarely do I get back anything. I will concentrate on reading the blog articles without commenting. The blog is great, this forum's community is not.


Wow! Dear Franke, it only took less than an hour, and one more post to bring you out of your announced "long" and permanent retirement of watching on the sidelines. You are a man of your word.....And that is just one of the reasons why you are truly in a different class of Atlantis searchers, as you say!

T. Franke
link
11/18/2018 05:37:32 pm

American Cool "Disco" Dan

O my dear AmericanPlunderHead, I will really miss you! You taught me an English vocabulary I never knew it existed! Sometimes you even find things you did not search.

An Anonymous Nerd
11/18/2018 10:20:50 pm

[I’ll give the Globe credit: Their article appropriately emphasized the skeptical viewpoint and accurately reported the complete and total lack of evidence for the wild claims made for the Westford Knight.]

Honestly that literally is all we reasonably can ask for. Unfortunately we cannot ask the mainstream media to not cover bunk. It'd be nice, to be sure. But it won't happen so why try. The fact that, perhaps, they'll feel comfortable calling it what it is and not trying to establish false equivalence is more than enough, realistically.

-An Anonymous Nerd

Reply
E.P. Grondine
11/19/2018 10:49:58 am

Okay everyone.

In Plato's moral fable, he has the Atlanteans killed off by God or the Gods because of their greed. That is what marks his tale as a moral fable.

Plato's date of 10,000 years earlier is likely to be a distancing mechanism, as we have firm dates for the Sea Peoples invasions of Egypt, which were about 1,000 years earlier.

But this is kind of moot, as we do not know what Plato originally wrote - all we have are the later texts.

And this team's claims are certainly "questionable".

That is one thing. But the existence of a major site on the Atlantic Ocean near a metal deposit is another. And that is exactly what we are dealing with here.

Now none of you have any expertise with the geology of impact tsunami's. And of course, for many of you they could not have occurred.

But what happens when the geological data proves otherwise?
It does not take that much effort to look around for it. But then you have no incentive to do so.

Reply
Frank
11/19/2018 11:03:04 am

Dear Thorwald Franke, thou great and of a different class of Atlantis searchers. Since you are still watching from the sidelines, I know that your "silence" will still echo in my ear.

And while you are still "warm" and not a dead corpse poster here, let me address this by you. As you asked this of me.

"You failed totally to present any striking evidence that Atlantis must be and can only be an invention by Plato. You only put forward the unsupported claim that the wise reader can "see" it. (Here we are close to your religious reading of Plato which rejects a historical-critical reading). Or you rely on the majority of scholars (but there are dissenters there, be careful!) And you failed to present any argument against my arguments by which I wanted to present evidence that certain arguments of Atlantis skeptics do not work, so that the question of Atlantis is an open question."

An old and wise German doctor, a quack by some others' opinions, once put forth a great tenet of truth in the world of medicinal substances. He said that; let likes cure likes. Or better know to the wise as: similia similibus curantur. He also championed another slogan: prove all things. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

You have nothing good, as far as Plato's Atlantis. You are set apart from other searchers because you are making a myth of your own from Plato's myth. Exponentially, that is the "squaring" of a myth, as myth times myth = myth squared. You are a square my dear Franke. And the only way to set you straight is by using a "like" to cure you of your disease. Therefore let me address your request from the very extreme fringe of Plato's philosophy, to set you right on your own cooked up fringe ideas on Atlantis, as I'll use the immortality of the soul in the Timaeus, and elsewhere in Plato's work.

"You failed totally to present any striking evidence that Atlantis must be and can only be an invention by Plato."

Let me tell you from Plato's own mind, that this Atlantis business was a total invention. How can I be certain of this? I can tell you this because I'm the "reincarnation" of Plato's soul.
Take that, you pompous man, stuff it in your pipe and smoke it. How does that strike you?

Reply
T. Franke link
11/19/2018 02:45:08 pm

FRANK: >>I'm the "reincarnation" of Plato's soul.<<

=> Let him talk ..........

Reply
American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/19/2018 03:37:34 pm

"My current plan is to stop posting here." = I will post here forever. Look at me! Look at me!

orang
11/19/2018 01:22:51 pm

Quote from the modern 8 ft tall Chief Joseph: "I will post no more forever."

Reply
bezalel
11/20/2018 11:12:54 am

@ T. Franke

"You should put forward some positive argument like "This is a literary device used often in Plato's time" or "This makes it clear that it is meant to deceive Plato's contemporaries" or something like this. Unfortunately, there are no such clearly working arguments."

Wrong and wrong again. You did not listen to what I told you a month ago.

All forms of knowledge in the post Catholic world are EVIDENCE BASED.

So be more scientific.

Atlantis will be considered myth, fable, fiction, etc until enough physical evidence arises (first reviewed, analyzed by many different qualified scientists) to establish otherwise.

There is a very good reason why knowledge progresses through scientific methods (thus sometimes taking a very, VERY long time to change prevailing theories).

We do NOT and will not accept any authoritarian decrees on knowledge. We do NOT live in the church dominated 15th century any more.

The only real authority is the scientific METHOD. This does take a long time to learn thoroughly. But any person with relevant and qualified background education/training is considered an expert, not an authority.

This is why we do not consider "opposite day" hypotheses in today's world (except in a class setting maybe). The burden of proof is on you to produce the evidence that Atlantis is NOT an invention; it is not on the scientist (or anyone) to prove that it is.

For you to think otherwise proves you have not spent the necessary time and effort to understand how science works, thus how the progression of knowledge works.

Reply
T. Franke link
11/20/2018 01:07:44 pm

Belzael,

my claim in this forum was not that Atlantis exists. I have not put forward my own Sicily proposal in detail, so I cannot claim this. It is only my personal conviction, for the moment.

My claim always was to show that it is an open question.

I fully agree with you that you can only claim that Atlantis existed if you have sufficient evidence for this. -- But I heavily disagree that this means that the opposite is the prevailing doctrine.

Because: Where is the sufficient evidence that Atlantis is not a distorted historical tradition, such as Herodotus' Histories? There is no such evidence.

The prevailing doctrine for Plato's Atlantis should be: We do not know. We only know for sure that the literalist reading is wrong, in the same way as is the literalist reading of Herodotus' Histories, and that 99% of all Atlantis hypotheses are wrong. But we do not know whether 100% of them are wrong.

Reply
american Cool "Disco"dan link
11/20/2018 10:14:33 pm


"My current plan is to stop posting here." = I will post here forever. Look at me! Look at me!"

It took less than a day.

American cool "disco" dan
11/21/2018 04:19:55 pm

"My current plan is to stop posting here." = I will post here forever. Look at me! Look at me!

T. Franke link
11/20/2018 01:56:33 pm

Bezalel (2) ,

sorry, I wrote your name wrong. Further questions to you:

Why do you agree to consider the Atlantis story a "fable"? You may call it a morality tale, if you like, but a "fable"?! It is surely not a fable. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fable

"Fable is a literary genre: a succinct fictional story, in prose or verse, that features animals, legendary creatures, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature that are anthropomorphized (given human qualities, such as the ability to speak human language)"

The same with "myth": It may be an invention by Plato. But a "myth"? Think twice! The invention of a story does not make a story a myth. The usual myths of Greek mythology are not invented by some philosopher, but have grown over centuries, with no specific author. And the Atlantis story is not presented as a myth, so it is even not an "artificial myth", if invented.

You really should reconsider your choice of words!

And concerning your "post Catholic world": It was Philip Melanchthon, the "brain" behind Martin Luther, who rejected the existence of Plato's Atlantis with the argument that it cannot be true, since everybody knows (and the majority of scholars agreed) that the world is only 6000 years old, or so. One mistake (9000 years) encountered the other mistake (6000 years), funny, isn't it? (Yes, it is in my book ... AmericanPlunderHead!)

Yes, it takes a long time to learn Ancient Greek, history, read the ancient literature, study secondary literature. I do this for almost 20 years now. And as you can see, I am reluctant in my claims, as it should be.

Reply
T. Franke link
11/20/2018 02:15:03 pm

PS:

I made a mistake. "The majority of scholars agreed" is wrong in Melanchthon's time. The situation was quite mixed in these days, it is difficult to make such a statement.

To be able to correct yourself is also very important for practicing science, did you know this already, Bezalel?

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/20/2018 03:56:10 pm

"My current plan is to stop posting here." = I will post here forever. Look at me! Look at me!"

American cool "Disco" Dan
11/21/2018 04:22:24 pm

"My current plan is to stop posting here." = I will post here forever. Look at me! Look at me!

E.P. Gronfdine
11/21/2018 09:02:43 pm

Just so you know how crazy I am.

Given the successful "Sea Peoples" invasion of the Levant, and the destruction levels seen at "Mycenaean" sites, I have very serious doubts that the Achaeans won the Trojan War.

Reply

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    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
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        • Erich von Däniken
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      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
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      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
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    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
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      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
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      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
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    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
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        • Egyptian Texts >
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        • Hermetica >
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          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
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        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
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      • Lost Civilizations >
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          • W. Scott-Elliot >
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        • Lost Cities >
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        • OOPARTs
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        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
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      • Giants in the Earth >
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          • Fossils and the Supernatural
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          • Man During the Stone Age
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          • American Elephant Myths
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          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
        • Fragments on Giants
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        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
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        • Devil Worship in France
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        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
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        • Fabulous Zoology
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      • Extreme History >
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        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
      • Fortean Society and Columbus
      • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
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      • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
      • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
      • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
      • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
      • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
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      • Noah's Ark Cables
      • The Von Daniken Letter
      • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
      • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
      • UFOs in Ancient China
      • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
      • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
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    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
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      • Defining a Zombie
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      • Science and Fairy Stories
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
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      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
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      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
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