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Is Alexander the Great's Body in St. Mark's Basilica in Venice?

7/1/2024

38 Comments

 
​Recently, Expedition Unknown sent Josh Gates to follow radiation expert Andrew Chugg as he retraced his research into the lost tomb of Alexander the Great. Chugg has published many articles and books over the past twenty years arguing that Alexander’s corpse is current in St. Mark’s Basilica in Venice. His speculative conclusions are intriguing, and possible, but I keep getting hung up on the details. 
​Chugg’s argument is rooted in ancient texts, archaeology, and the absence of clear evidence. The Ptolemies set up a tomb for Alexander, called the Soma, in Alexandria the late fourth century BCE. It’s exact location is unknown, and various ancient authors differ on the contents of the tomb, writing variously that Alexander’s body lay in a sarcophagus of marble, gold, or crystal. The last clear report of the intact tomb occurs around 390 CE. An earthquake had likely damaged the Soma in 375 CE, and by 391 CE rampaging Christian extremists had ransacked most of what was left of pagan Alexandria, including the Serapeum. But Libanius, writing in 390, says the body itself was on display.
 
It is at this time that a new monument appears, the tomb of the Gospel writer St. Mark the Evangelist in which his body was displayed. On the one hand, this was logical since Mark founded the Alexandrian church, but on the other, this was quite strange since Mark was believed to have been cremated after his martyrdom in Alexandria in 68 CE, though an Egyptian tradition claimed his body had been rescued from the flames. Theodosius I, who ordered the destruction of all pagan monuments in 391, reportedly discovered Alexander’s treasure in the chaos, suggesting the Soma was looted and destroyed at that time. Chugg hypothesizes that fans of Alexander disguised the body as that of St. Mark and installed it in the new tomb in 391 CE to keep it safe from rampaging Christians, and there it sat in plain sight until two Venetians stole it in the ninth century and took it to Venice, where it now sits in St. Mark’s Basilica. Proof, he says, comes in the form of a segment of marble found near “St. Mark’s” relics in Venice which is the exact size to have covered part of the granite sarcophagus of Nectanebo II, the last native pharaoh, which Islamic tradition holds had once held Alexander’s remains.
Picture
Sarcophagus of Nectanebo II.
This, though, is where things start to get squirrely. Chugg argues that Alexandrian Christian moderates were able to remove Alexander’s elaborate marble sarcophagus casing from the Soma along with his body, while leaving the granite inner sarcophagus behind, and move both to the tomb of St. Mark, where they were able to re-erect them as “Mark’s” tomb—all without the Alexandrians noticing, having completely forgotten about Alexander’s tomb. The evidence for this is St. John Chrysostom’s Homily 26 on 2 Corinthians of c. 400 CE, in which he asks after Alexander’s lost tomb:
For, tell me, where is the tomb of Alexander? Show it me and tell me the day on which he died. But of the servants of Christ the very tombs are glorious, seeing they have taken possession of the most loyal city; and their days are well known, making festivals for the world. And his tomb even his own people know not, but this man's the very barbarians know.
​Chugg takes this as proof that Alexander’s tomb had been forgotten between 391 and 400, utterly erased from the popular mind. But that simply isn’t what Chrysostom meant. He is very clearly implying that Alexander’s own people, i.e. the Greco-Roman pagans of the Roman Empire, not citizens of Alexandria, did not treat his tomb with the same reverence that Christians worldwide afforded to the tomb of Christ and the tombs of the saints. Chrysostom lived in Constantinople, not Alexandria, and was writing in that context. His claim is parallel to Theodoret of Cyrus’s which made the same comparison to the tombs of Persian emperors in the 420s, though the tombs he cited, belonging to Xerxes and Darius, were on full display carved into the rocks near Persepolis, and those of the Roman emperors, which still may be seen in Rome today (A Cure for Pagan Maladies, 8.60-61). At any rate, we know Chrysostom didn’t really believe Alexander had been forgotten among his people, for he also warned against the cult of Alexander and the magical enchantments pagans performed in his name (Ad illuminados cat.).
 
In short, Chrysostom and Theodoret are not proof of the loss of Alexander’s tomb and body, though it’s likely the original edifice had been desecrated when they wrote.
 
A bigger problem for Chugg is a logical inconsistency in his ideas. To my mind, it is ridiculous to suggest that the Christians simply moved Alexander’s body and sarcophagus casing, which everyone had seen for centuries, and set it up with a new name and everyone just accepted it as Mark’s. But Chugg argues that Alexander’s tomb had been utterly forgotten so that he can have “Mark” take over. But he also told me via X that the Venetians (known only, by the way, from an eleventh-century account of their ninth-century exploits) needed to bring Alexander’s sarcophagus casing to prove the body they brought back was Mark’s. But he compounds the incredulity by asking us to believe that while Alexander’s tomb had been forgotten and destroyed and the inner sarcophagus abandoned, the Arab conquerors of Egypt correctly identified the inner sarcophagus and set it up in a mosque built on the ruins of the church of St. Athanasius as Alexander’s grave. Early Muslim historians, such as Al-Mas’udi, writing in Meadows of Gold (1.253) in the early 900s, speak of a still-extant marble burial place—which must have been sealed, by the way, since it was not described as empty—and said it was Alexander’s. Leo Africanus, who visited five hundred years later also saw it and affirmed that the locals believed it held the body of Alexander—which means it had to have been sealed. He writes in his Description of Africa in the section on Alexandria:
Neither ought it to be omitted, that in the midst of the ruins of Alexandria, there still remains a small edifice, built like a chapel, worthy of notice on account of a remarkable tomb, held in high honour by the mahometans; in which sepulchre, they assert, is preserved the body of Alexander the Great, an eminent prophet and king, as they read in their koran. An immense crowd of strangers comes thither, even from distant countries, for the sake of worshipping and doing homage to the tomb; on which, like wise, they frequently bestow considerable donations.
Picture
The chapel (left) of the Attarine Mosque around the time of the removal of Nectanebo II's sarcophagus.
​This was the Attarine Mosque, built in the eleventh century atop the ruins of the Church of St. Athanasius. Within an octagonal chapel stood the cenotaph, which Chugg, following French and British scholars of the colonial period, assumed to be Nectanebo’s sarcophagus. (The hypothesis was first propoed by Edward Clarke in 1805, and heavily criticized shortly thereafter for inconsistencies and lack of evidence.) The French found it in the crumbling mosque in 1798, and the British took it to London in 1802. But there is a problem with that because Nectanebo’s sarcophagus was being used as a ritual bathtub in the mosque when the French found it (it had drainage holes drilled into the base) and was not the venerated cenotaph of Alexander described as late as the 1600s by George Sandys (likely copying from Leo). At any rate, Nectanebo’s sarcophagus is not made of marble, the material both ancient authors (beginning with Plutarch) and Muslim observers said Alexander’s sarcophagus had been made from.
 
Chugg gets around this by positing a limestone casing for Nectanebo’s sarcophagus, though this casing could not be what al-Mas’udi referred to if the Venetians had carried off the casing that had been already been moved to Mark’s tomb. He also believes Nectanebo’s box was Alexander’s first coffin in Memphis before he was moved to Alexandria, though this raises more questions than answers about why the Ptolemies, so rich and powerful, would have kept Alexander in a recycled box each time they moved his tomb. One might more parsimoniously assume that the locals remembered the former shrine to Alexander and attributed his name to the grandest piece of rock in there.
 
The piece of limestone in St. Mark’s, bearing a shield with “Macedonian” symbols, is, perhaps Chugg’s best piece of evidence, though the art is not the kind of quality you would expect the grandest empire in the Hellenistic world to apply to the tomb of the ruling dynasty’s divine hero. The piece of limestone features a shield with a Macedonian-style sunburst shield emblem. I’m no expert in Ptolemaic armaments, but it is my understanding that the same shield was used by the Ptolemies. At any rate, Chugg claims an exact match between limestone and sarcophagus. Nectanebo’s sarcophagus has a maximum height is 118.50 cm, while the casing stone is 118 cm tall. This is interesting but not conclusive; the Rosetta stone and some Ptolemaic orthostats are also the same height, and at any rate, if the casing and the sarcophagus were of the same height, then it does not account for either box’s lids. The casing wouldn’t hide the sarcophagus lid, and the casing’s lid wouldn’t fit. Of course, the ancient sources say the body was on display, so perhaps there were no lids, but why then were the sarcophaguses necessary to hide the crystal coffin that was on open display?
 
(An alternative hypothesis, put forward with reservations by Vassilios Christides in 1999—years before Chugg—in an academic volume too rare and expensive for me to consult on short notice, suggested that Nectanebo’s sarcophagus wasn’t Alexander’s first resting place but his last, in which the marble coffin rested, either for Ptolemaic propaganda or to hide it in Late Antiquity.)
 
At the end of the day, I can’t quite get over the idea that the body and outer casing were spirited off to St. Mark’s Tomb unnoticed, while Alexander’s tomb was forgotten yet simultaneously remembered only for the previously unsee inner sarcophagus, which went unmentioned for five or six hundred years. Does that mean Chugg is wrong? No. He might be right. His train of logic is intriguing, but too many little details don’t quite add up to say Chugg has proved his case beyond a reasonable doubt.
38 Comments
Crash55
7/1/2024 01:37:56 pm

Radiocarbon dating should settle the debate quickly. Though of course it is highly unlikely that it will ever happen.

One of the earthquakes that hit Alexandria destroyed most of teen Royal Quarter and swept a good chunk of it out to sea. Decent chance that is where the remains of Alexander’s tomb is.

Reply
Clete
7/1/2024 03:33:46 pm

I am unsure if you know that radiocarbon dating can be used. It can only be used to date organic material. It cannot be used to date stone. In order to date Alexander's body you would need parts of the body or artifacts found in the tomb that could be associated with his burial.

Reply
Crash55
7/1/2024 06:31:06 pm

I am afraid you missed a major part of the argument.

The body of “St Mark” is a state of preservation. Some are claiming it was mummified. This is part of the argument that it is actually Alexander since he was supposedly mummified.

So there should be material in his body that can be carbon dated.

An Over-Educated Grunt
7/1/2024 06:48:44 pm

How convenient that they also hold the remains of St. Mark; it's unlikely they'd be available but they'd either show a 300 BCE date, or a 100 CE date. Even with confidence intervals that's a pretty obvious delta.

For the sarcophagus you'd have to use other methods. Luminescence testing could do it, but again, odds of the Church allowing destructive testing of an artifact that's a minimum of seven hundred years old (assuming, worst case, it was taken during either the Alexandrian Crusade in the 1300s or the sack of Constantinople in 1204) are... minimal at best.

Kent
7/1/2024 10:40:43 pm

"CRASH55
6/25/2024 01:03:00 am
I work in advanced materials."

So a little respect if it please you! How do you know this guy won't go on to invent Transparent Super Elastic Bubble Plastic back in the 1980s using information from the 24th century?

And before you ask, no glitter is not an advanced material, nor as you know can it be carbon dated. I have what I think is a funny joke about carbon dating but it would rightly be considered objectionable. :(

Crash55
7/2/2024 11:21:26 am

Kent - good to see you haven’t changed. Your other post was almost logical.

If you had read my reply before posting your attack you would have known that carbon dating is possible in this case do to the remains being preserved.

Kent
7/2/2024 06:45:11 pm

Yup, still spotting idiocy, DROSS (Doctor of Real Orc Science 'n' Stuff). Are you still authoritatively pronouncing on the materials list of interstellar spacecraft which don't exist?

And you could carbon date the Ark of the Covenant if you could get access to the chapel in Axum. But what if there's no Ark in there, see? Same same with a body. You're taking a lot of people's word for it that there are remains in the box. And that they're human, so that's another test. Can't use the gom jabbar, that's a different fictional universe. Lotta religious people. Lotta politicians. At a safe guess, lotta criminals.

Was there a body shortage or a mummy shortage in Alexander's time? When did the unboxing of mummies fad hit so they could use the tar from the wrapping on boats? What if there are two sets of remains? What if there are remains and the pelvis or one of them is female?

Hooves horses not hooves zebras. The first thought on confronting a box with unknown contents should not be "This is a job for a DNA test!" it should be "Can we find out what's in it?" Baby steps.

And of course to placate the Space Brothers, no wire hangers!

Crash55
7/3/2024 10:21:16 am

Still authoritatively stating that aluminum is not an advanced material. For some reason I am still responding to your comments.

There is historical evidence for St Mark’s relics being moved to the high altar in 1835. So yes there are at least parts of a body in St Mark’s basilica.


As I said in another post the best we can get is a the date range. 323 BCE and 56CE are far enough apart to at least rule out one of the possibilities. Yes you can’t prove it was Alexander or St Mark. There is very little you can prove about the ancient world. All you can do is assign a probability.

It is highly doubtful the Church will allow testing so the question will remain unanswered in all likelihood. I am just positing a possible way to remove some of the contenders.


Most likely Alexander’s body was destroyed by either the earthquake/ tsunami or by Christian zealots. The tomb is likely in the bay though recent digs have found some promising structures in downtown Alexandria

Belisarius
1/8/2025 11:47:53 pm

I trust that his remnants, or the final chapter in his body’s journey, will be conclusively mapped via DNA testing of the Venice remains. We will see.

Reply
Crash55
1/9/2025 12:23:12 pm

How is DNA going to prove it? You need a relative to verify it’s him. We think we have his father’s grave but he was cremated so the DNA will be destroyed. The best you are likely to get is that he was from the general region of ancient Macedonia based on strontium analysis

Belisarius
1/9/2025 01:29:54 pm

You do not need a direct relative, other family members would do. Apparently there are sufficient skeletal remains in Tomb 1 from the murdered relatives (Philip's wife and infant). This is where this enters some of my professional expertise, albeit being unable to digress in what I do for a living, but it includes finding a needle in a haystack. even for Romans, burned remains were incomplete and urns preserved bone fragments. There are ample royal skeletal remains in Macedonia, but I presume the Greek authorities never benefited (yet) from the extensive genome mapping their Egyptian relatives did. From a forensic point of view, you can strongly infer or via a process of elimination and cross comparison (which worked very well for Egyptologists). The Y chromosome does not change (according to my NG genome mapping fundraiser and DNA interesting, I originated in Brescia and Foggia, so my ancestors were romans that settled in Dacia. With proper funding, and testing of Subj ) (St Mark), the origin will be determining fast but they need to test in Macedonia, Ptolemaics in Egypt and just do the study. It has not ben done to date as it does not exist.

The interesting thing is that your arguments, although cogent, do not necessarily exclude those of Chugg, and conflicting ideas can exist. Both can be correct and we are missing variables to reconcile them. For example, I lost track of how many historical interests I explored in regions where the locals were absolutely clueless as to their significance or even existence. To us, it was Alexander the Great. To 4th C uneducated, decayed, brain washed Alexandrians, historically illiterate, he may have been the pagan dude buried there. I attribute that to identity change or outright trauma. It is entirely plausible that Muslims- whom exchanged with Christians since early on, and educated Romans, could visit Alexandria, seek Alexander’s tomb, and many Alexandrians (in a dwindling population and decaying economics) had no clue. I cannot count how many citizens in cities with incredible histories going back to 2nd millennium BC have no clues even though walking past their local museum. The possibility that the Alexander vestige could be there, in Alexandria, a small decaying town, unknown to its citizens is what I see in the world today of connected data and ‘educated’ folks. Unless there was such a tsunami of travellers and pilgrims needing to be taxed, Alexandrian could have been clueless and brain washed by the effects of Christianity, which had been most aggressive in the 4-9th centuries. Other hypotheses also have precedent. Royal bodies being buried in a sarcophagus, removed relocated reinterred occurred in Egypt as well, quite frequently. If a major sarcophagus took a long time to craft, out of granite, then sourcing Nectobo’s would have been brilliant and befitting as a transient box for Alexander.

Now, inference is also very powerful. One of the most important missing clues, and revelatory in itself, is the absence of any written evidence documenting St Mark, or his remains, landing in Alexandria between 1st and 4th C. You would think radical Christians (and they were crazy radical back then, burning and pillaging pagan material) would make a fuss about such a dedication. Nada. On the other hand, tomb, sarcophagus, genealogical, identity, body or historical appropriation were a norm in antiquity, so a body swap then (Alexander for St Marks), for preservation, is a most plausible hypothesis. DNA would help because should it point to BCE Macedonian remains, the whole case, form an investigative, forensic perspective, changes.

Crash55
1/10/2025 09:52:01 am

I should have been more precise when I said direct. I meant fairly close as opposed generations removed. Phillips wife however will not be useful as she is not the mother of Alexander. The infant as a half brother would be. I thought the bodies had been cremated so wouldn’t that destroy the DNA?

Other Macedonian royals would be useful if you can work out the family tree. However the further you get from a direct or very close connection the less certain you can be in the knowing who it is,

The Y chromosome is going to give you basically the same sort of information as would Strontium analysis. You will know that the person came from the region of Macedonia. So yes that makes it much more likely to be Alexander but not definite.

At the end of the day unless you can get DNA from a known relative the best you will be able to do is say the body is that of someone from Macedonia.

Belisarius
1/11/2025 10:48:42 pm

Strontium less useful than DNA, as there are too many bones and fragments, crazy to see in images Philip's armor and bad knee. Did you know that for the 32 million euros allocated for Greek management, not one euro was dedicated to DNA testing? For the Venice remains, DNA strontium carbon can reveal the precise decade; before any familial DNA links, we will know of one one famous Macedonian that died in 323 BC. https://popular-archaeology.com/article/deciphering-the-dead-in-the-royal-tombs-of-macedon/#google_vignette and https://popular-archaeology.com/article/bones-of-philip-of-macedon-identified/. They have at least 7 skeletal remains, enough from Philip so on. now, we are all having this debate because of the pitiful state of Greek finances, which, in turn, undermined badly their own archeological program. Egyptians never messed with that as it also fuels their billion dollar tourism industry. At some point, the Church will come along, but what a crazy story. The only thing that might have survived that period in Alexandria is Alexander. We do not know how much survived, there were all sorts of accounts that parts of the mummified body survived, but enough for DNA. Clearly, papi's digs in Alexandria are futile, the mausoleum, royal quarter everything was erased and repurposed. As for the Church (Alexandrian or Rome), well, once they figure out how much money is there to be made by testing, they will turn around. They even permitted the shroud of Turin to be tested. Crazy crazy to think that such a body ended up spoiled, of armor, shield, sword, gold, everything except the mummy. There are several other bodies that beg finding, Cleopatra being one of them. Presently, one of the things that irks me most is looting archeological sites and hitting the black market.


Kent
7/1/2024 03:48:12 pm

I've seen parts of this one, next time it's on I'll follow along using this excellent article as a reference.

It occurs to this writer that ancient writers deserve to be looked at with the same askanceness and unease as later "travel" writers, Chatwinensis, Therouxidae, and Sir Marco of Polo being my current examples. And of course as Jason says "Chrysostom lived in Constantinople, not Alexandria, and was writing in that context." Then there's also the Letters of St. Paul, some they says am some they says ain't. Preacher man call me a sinner but his little girl she call me a saint.

It's not like these troubled days of modern times when a Thom Friedman can hop on a plane, fly to a five star hotel and start working the phone asking his cronies what they've heard about "the situation on the ground". Miles and miles of lifestyles for that one, married rich. But still often wrong. I could do other examples but he's low-hanging fruit and I'm hella jelly. Seems likely that many of the olde timey writers would have relied on a Game of Telephone long before the invention of the telephone.

"fans of Alexander" Great phrase! Much like today's politics is largely fan-based. One party is Philadelphia Eagles fans and the other is Man United. Not saying which, it's the Bob Ross approach, you can have your own little world. Maybe some folks pulling down a statue over there, and just a little tiki torch rally there, it's your world, whatever you want it to be. Oh, look out for that car! Oh, my shop window! Isn't that soothing?

Perhaps due to not seeing the entire episode I don't understand "Chugg argues that Alexandrian Christian moderates were able to remove Alexander’s elaborate marble sarcophagus casing from the Soma along with his body, while leaving the granite inner sarcophagus behind, and move both to the tomb of St. Mark..." How does leaving behind and moving both work? Oh, both the outer case and the body. Nevermind.

Chrysostom seems to have had unnatural wood for tombs, therefore I'm inclined to reject his account as tainted by his issues. I'm similarly skeptical of all Christian accounts in this matter, including the accounts of Saint Mark's corpse, even the contradictory ones. They *can* all be wrong. Neti, neti, neti.

"Within an octagonal chapel..." Some would say you've set off the Templar Alarm, the loon (State Bird of Minnesota) has dropped down from the ceiling. But this is the first I'm hearing of a Godfrey Daniels "ritual bathtub in the mosque" in Islam. You're really chasin', Jason. Not a fan of any of the three teams but pretty sure Islam doesn't have the Mikveh tradition and if it did that's not where it would be placed. You cannot trust olde timey writers. If you must, доверяй, но проверяй, a phrase that trips off the tongue like Terence McKenna, another travel writer.

You see drain holes, I see stone holes. My first thought was a veneer of some sort then I read that I was not the first to think it. Depending on what's on the non-visible side, are there holes lined up? Could they be for carrying? I fear I'm misunderestimating the weight.

https://web.archive.org/pdf/search/Vassilios%20Christides
Princeton's website doesn't show a 1999 publication and it's probably too modern for the HathiTrust so I'm at a loss as to *the title*. Shirley someone has access to JStor or a university library?

As Jason points out in the conclusion and I alluded to above the idea of taking the body and the outer box while leaving behind the inner box? As a coworker of mine used to say "Sounds like a lot of work, wouldn't it be more convenient if...?"




Reply
Belisarius
1/9/2025 01:47:06 pm

Quick reply, there are many ideas, that, seemingly contradictory, make sense. Granite is very heavy and the granite sarcophagus was 7 mt I believe. Marble, and anything marble, has been looted or simply used from many monuments. At Adamclisi, the locals snatched massive stones to make livestock troughs. Marble was repossessed for luxury, and limestone as construction (which is what happened to Alexander's mausoleum). Now, at the same time, if we go back to the period, newly founded cities in Italy were collecting rapidly massive trophies (Constantine's horse statues?). So the sculpted marble casing, whether inner or outer, must have been appealing to buy and bring to venice. It can be cut and reassembled, and craftsmen could make them seem one piece. Sure, to us, today, it may seem sacrilegious to carve antiques just to move them. But how much has not been done already to Egypt all the way to the 20th C?

Reply
Larry
7/1/2024 05:18:50 pm

Forget the body, did Gates find Alexander's ghost?

Reply
Crash55
7/1/2024 06:33:56 pm

That will be the subject of a future Expedition X episode.

Reply
Michael Redmond
7/1/2024 08:25:35 pm

A fascinating read. Thank you. And I think you're logic is impeccable.

Reply
John
7/2/2024 02:59:43 am

118.5 cm is pretty much exactly 4 Roman feet: 29.6 * 4 = 118.4. Other cultures like the Egyptians used roughly the same.

Reply
Ken T.
7/2/2024 05:53:20 pm

You can add to the coincidences that the size of my manhood is pretty much 118.5 cm.

Reply
Mark's Body??
7/2/2024 05:19:31 am

Haven't people got to be ignorant to believe that "Mark" existed at all? Ditto Matthew, Luke & John.

Reply
Crash55
7/2/2024 11:19:22 am

I believe current scholarly consensus is that they did exist. They are writing down what was being told orally before them and are writing 50+ years after the events. The oldest texts show distinct authors through there is some crossover.

The issue with Mark’s body is that there are stories saying it was burned. So a mummified body is at odds with that.

Reply
MARK'S BODY??
7/2/2024 03:55:15 pm

I know the issue. But Alexander The Great existed while Mark is not known to have existed outside of Christian tradition. You really have to discipline yourself into understanding the difference between history and tradition. Or people may call you a dogmatic fundamentalist.

Crash55
7/2/2024 07:01:46 pm

History says there is a body in Venice that was supposedly stolen from Alexandria. Tradition says it is St Mark.

The Gospels exist and someone wrote them. Call then whoever you want. We will never be able to definitively name them. Just like we are unsure of the authorship of several of “ Shakespeare’s” plays.

Whether Mark was written by an anonymous person or someone named Mark or St Mark the Evangelist is unknown. Tradition also says St Mark founded the See of Alexandria. So there being a body in Alexandria venerated as St Mark is logical.

In this particular case the tradition vs history part doesn’t matter at all. There is a body that supposedly dates from around 68 CE. Whether or not is St Mark doesn’t matter. What matters is whether it is from 68 CE or 323 BCE. Carbon dating should be able to answer that. Even then we can never be certain it is Alexander only a certain likelihood

Kent
7/2/2024 11:57:04 pm

If there are indeed hyoo mon remains in el box, and no one seems to know if there are, if someone threw in a mummy of a certain age it would at most test positive as "someone from the time of" AtG. And I mos' def want to check out that pelvis which could be done noninvasively these days. It's positively raining opinions, don't forget your brolly.

Were there indeed a mummy on board, researchers might only [be allowed to] test the wrappings so as not to [be allowed to] desacrate the body parts of a saint.

MARK'S BODY??
7/3/2024 10:00:02 am

The first Christian to recognise the authorship of the Gospels as Matthew, Mark, Luke & John by name was Irenaeus of Lyons in "Five Books Against Heresies", in circa 180. Nothing exists before then.

Kent
7/3/2024 02:11:43 pm

"History says there is a body in Venice that was supposedly stolen from Alexandria." I fear that here you are mistaking tradition for history given the centuries-long game of Telephone and the thieves and liars both priestly and political involved. Et in Arcadia Hugo.

Is there am or is there ain't a body? Perhaps someone who is not me can find the answer to that. The website of St. Mark's Basilica says "the relics of St. Mark" and doesn't say what the "relics" are.

In Catholicism relics include clothing and personal possessions. It's a non-traveling medicine show for snake-oil fanciers. Maybe St. Mark went proto-Trick-or-Treating with his friend Carolus Fuscus: "Accēpī petram." Bam, relic! Into the tomb it goes. To paraphrase Jerry Lee Lewis, carbon date that.

Wittgenstein's advice stands today, with regard to relics as well as the materials list for construction of non-existent interstellar spaceships.

Crash55
7/3/2024 07:40:36 pm

According to the Fitzwiliam Museum of Cambridge the relics are his bones. Also according to them the Vatican had some of the returned to Alexandria in 1968. So we know for certain that there were at least bones in Venice in 1968 that tradition says are St Mark’s. Took a whole 30 seconds to find this info.

With bones there is a chance (albeit slim) to recover DNA. You can also do strontium analysis to determine where the person grew up. Again won’t definitely say who the bones belong to but can say who it isn’t.

Feel free to once again reply with your nonsense but I am done with this post.

MARK'S BODY??
7/5/2024 01:59:01 pm

Awful lot of "According to" in this. It's commonly called special pleading. Especially in material relating to religion. And according to a religion that had many different sects and different contradictory beliefs that no-one is able to sort out.

Kent
7/5/2024 04:29:33 pm

"According to the Fitzwiliam Museum of Cambridge the relics are his bones. Also according to them the Vatican had some of the returned to Alexandria in 1968. So we know for certain that there were at least bones in Venice in 1968 that tradition says are St Mark’s. Took a whole 30 seconds to find this info."

So the takeway is: Telephone is now scored for time, you believe the Vatican or something someone said about the Vatican, and Fitzwiliam Museum has somehow seen inside the box. Brilliant.

"But Professor! I researched it for 30 seconds! Partial credit c'mon?"

According to Wikipedia "a" relic, a small bone fragment which was in the possession of El Pope 在 Rome, not Venice, was returned. According to other sources, e.g. the Christian Historical Society, "relics" and "a box of relics" were involved. Apparently Sarah got the lines crossed or my K-Telephone only dials Ilhan Omar: "Some people did some things." A keypress stud such as yourself should be able to sort this out in a trice!

Oh fiddlesticks! I forgot to start the timer. Gonna lose points for that.

"Feel free to once again reply with your nonsense but I am done with this post." Everybody funny. Now you funny too. Looking forward to your next appearance. To paraphrase H. Simpson "I get internet code!"

An Over-Educated Grunt
7/6/2024 09:35:06 pm

Multiple witness statements over several hundred years are not special pleading. They're evidence that SOMETHING was attributed to be the remains of St. Mark, including specific details. It is possible all odd those witnesses are lying or mistaken, but that is, again, not special pleading; special pleading would be that there is something in this case that makes it different from all other cases, and since it is possible to find witness statements of carrots quality for all sorts of phenomena, there's nothing special about including them.

The best solution would still be to open the box and test its contents, but arguing about whether the box exists in the first place is as absurd as arguing about whether or not there's a radioactive source in Schrödinger's box, or a cat. The test presupposes their existence. The solution to that problem is logicality trivial, regardless of whether or not it's legally complicated.

Kent
7/7/2024 09:59:57 am

Not "multiple witness statements" Shirley? "Multiple claims to be witnesses" perhaps. See above about travel writers and consider the phrase "multiple Gryphon witness statements". In anything so fraught with religionpoliticsandcrime statements are to be noted but acceptance is another black pot of fish.

Any history of TIA?

An Over-Educated Grunt
7/7/2024 11:22:38 am

Oh for crying out loud. I haste pudding from phones.

Jerry A Taylor
7/2/2024 06:46:01 pm

Thermoluminescence could potentially date the stone and determine the approximate age. And there are other methods used to date stone.

https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/dating-rocks-and-fossils-using-geologic-methods-107924044/#:~:text=Some%20minerals%20in%20rocks%20and,is%20known%20as%20radiometric%20dating.

Reply
Michael Redmond
7/3/2024 07:57:33 pm

1. Re the body, if there is one: IF DNA is present, haplogroup could indicate whether Hellenic or Semitic. 2. Re dating of New Testament texts: It's known that Romans confiscated and destroyed church mss during persecutions. Not surprising there's nothing from 1st and 2nd centuries, when the church was small potatoes, anyway. Maybe 1-2% of Roman population, tops.

Reply
Darold Knowles
7/4/2024 04:07:39 pm

Does this mean that Hamlet was wrong when he proclaimed that one could trace the noble dust of Alexander till he find it stopping a bunghole?

Reply
T. Franke link
7/7/2024 10:30:12 am

It may be added that the island monastery of Reichenau in Southern Germany also claims to have significant relics of St. Mark. They were allegedly transferred from Venice to Reichenau in 830, i.e. shortly after Venice received the relics, by Veronese bishop Ratoldus who came from this monastery and went back to it in retirement.

The authenticity of the Reichenau relics was confirmed by pope Innocence VIII in 1486.

And Venice retransfered a small part of Mark's relics to Alexandria in 1968.

You find this e.g. on the German Wikipedia page of St. Mark, please help yourself with a translation program. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_(Evangelist)#Heiligenverehrung

Reply
Kent
7/8/2024 09:59:10 pm

Did Pope Innofitzinhim recognize his old friend St. Mark or did he use alien mass spectrometry technology? Popes say a lot of kooky stuff up to the present day.

What does the Council on Real Orc Science 'n' Stuff (CROSS) say about this?

Riddle me this: What does it mean to consecrate Russia to the sacred heart of the Blessed Virgin Mary, one of whose titles I might add is Queen of Space? There's no such ritual under the canopy of the panoply of canonical cosplay. No, not that kind of Cos play.

Invoke what a supposed Pope supposedly said in a centuries-old game of Telephone? Congratulations, you just won an awkward question.

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    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
      • Secret History of Ancient Astronauts
      • Of Atlantis and Aliens
      • Aliens and Ancient Texts
      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
        • Robert Temple
        • Giorgio Tsoukalos
        • David Childress
      • Blunders in the Sky
      • The Case of the False Quotes
      • Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud
      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
      • Native American Discovery of Europe
      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
      • Lovecraft in Bergier
      • Lovecraft and Scientology
    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
      • Aliens and Anal Probes
      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
    • The Antediluvian Pyramid Myth
    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Eridu Genesis
          • Atrahasis Epic
          • Epic of Gilgamesh
          • Kutha Creation Legend
          • Babylonian Creation Myth
          • Descent of Ishtar
          • Resurrection of Marduk
          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Byzantine World Chronicle
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Atlantis as Biblical History
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Atlantis and Nimrod
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and Hanno's Periplus
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
          • Amazing New Light (Hoax)
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
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        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
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        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
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        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • History of Paleontology
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • America Known to the Ancients
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Remarkable Discoveries Within the Sphinx (Hoax)
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • The Shaver Mystery >
          • Lovecraft and the Deros
          • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • CIA Search for the Ark of the Covenant
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • The Fall of the Sky
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Poltergeist UFOs
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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