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Review of "Odysseus Returns," a PBS Quest to Find the Tomb of Odysseus

8/31/2024

48 Comments

 
Picture
Promotional image for "Odysseus Returns" featuring Makis Metaxas (PBS)
​This week, PBS presented Odysseus Returns, a documentary following the three-decade quest of “amateur historian” Makis Metaxas as he attempts to convince the world that Odysseus was real, that Homer’s island of Ithaca was in fact the neighboring island of Kefalonia in northwest Greece, and that he had seen both the tomb of Odysseus and the Greek hero’s bones. It’s a tall order for a ninety-minute film, and I was disappointed that the somewhat meandering documentary presents only one side of the argument, leaving the audience with the impression that not only is Metaxas right but that the Greek government and archaeologists are conspiring to prevent Odysseus’ tomb from being identified. So much does the film endorse Metaxas’s perspective that PBS affixed a disclaimer to the beginning of the documentary noting that the film’s claims are not the views of the Greek government. Typically, such as disclaimer says something like “not necessarily,” implying some wiggle room, but this one is simply “not.”
Picture
Kefalonia (bottom) and Ithaki (top) neighbor each other.
​Metaxas has been on the trail of Odysseus for thirty years, and part of his argument is logical enough and a defensible literary proposition: He argues that the “Ithaca” described in the Odyssey is not the island of Ithaki in today’s Greece but rather the neighboring island of Kefalonia, whose geography better matches the features described by Homer. It is quite possible that in Homer’s time, or before, Kefalonia and Ithaki were part of a single polity whose ruler referred to it as Ithaca. It would be unusual, of course, for a Greek location to have its name transferred, but it is not unprecedented. Robert Bittlestone proposed the same idea in his 2005 book Odysseus Unbound.
 
However, because Homer is big tourist business in Greece, the claim could threaten the island of Ithaki’s business model, so it has been controversial. Metaxas, who was once a government official on Kefalonia, claims that the Greek ministry overseeing archaeology has tried to suppress his claims to maintain the status quo. The Greek government did not participate in the film.
 
To this extent, the documentary offers little more than a local dispute over literary analysis, but Metaxas doesn’t stop with this claim. Sometime in the early 1990s, Metaxas says he stumbled across the entrance to a Mycenaean tholos tomb at Tzanata on Kefalonia, and he believes that it must be the tomb of Odysseus.  The tomb was formally discovered in 1992 by archaeologist Lazaros Kolonas, who excavated the tomb and its 72 bodies. It appears to be the tomb of kings or elites due to its large size and (formerly) rich burials, long since looted, so Metaxas concludes that Odysseus would have been buried there. He goes further and feels that a body with remains of a cloak might be Odysseus himself.
 
The argument rests, at heart, on the claim that a crystal seal found in the tomb is the broach Odysseus wears in Odyssey 19.225–232. There, Odysseus wears a golden pin on his cloak which depicts an unusual scene of a dog killing a fawn. The rock seal from the tholos tomb is made of crystal and depicts a lion killing a deer. We hear in the documentary that the words “lion” and “dog” have the same metrical length in ancient Greek, so Homer may have swapped out the lion for the dog, since lions were no longer common in the Mediterranean by his time. (They had become extinct in Greece after the Bronze Age collapse, by around 1000 BCE, some three centuries before Homer.) No comment is made about the seal being of rock and the pin of gold, nor of one being an identification seal and the other being a cloak brooch. (In the image below, Metaxas has colored an impression of the clear crystal seal yellow to appear more like gold.)
Picture
The seal Metaxas claims as Odysseus' brooch.
Picture
A similar seal found at Mycenae.
​This is quite a bit of weight to rest on a rock, particularly when the similarities can also be ascribed to coincidence, since hunting scenes, including those with deer and lions, are relatively common on Mycenaean seals. Indeed, a very similar seal with a lion killing a deer was found at Mycenae, showing that the Tzanata tomb seal is not unique. Further, Homer is known to have included some genuine bits of Mycenaean culture and lore in his poems. The famous boar tusk helmet in Iliad 10.260–5 describes a genuine accessory that went out of fashion three hundred years earlier, and he describes the Achaean leader with the old kingly term anax (Mycenaean wanax) that had fallen out of favor centuries before, replaced by basileus. Martin Nilsson carefully documented in The Mycenaean Origin of Greek Mythology (1932) how Greek myths, including Homer’s epics, correspond to cities that were important in the Bronze Age, even if they declined or vanished after, and character names use older word-forms that go back to Mycenaean usage. So, in short, while the rock crystal seal is not really all that similar to the Homeric brooch, it would not exactly be out of character for Homer (or whoever or however many passed under that name) to have remembered in a general way the royal seal of the kings of Ithaca from the Bronze Age, or at least the general type of animal seals used by Mycenaean high officials.
 
After Metaxas spends some time explaining how he has been wronged, persecuted, and ridiculed for threatening the monopoly of Big Greek Myth, he takes us to the site of the Tzanata tholos tomb, which had been open for tourists but is currently off limits due to what is said to be conservation and restoration work. Metaxas notes that almost no work has been done for many years and the site has never been formally published in academic literature (though I found that it has been discussed in academic books since 1999 and Kolonas published at least three articles about it since 1992), but instead of attributing this to the general malaise of the Greek government over the past challenging decade of austerity and crisis, he claims that the Greek government and elite archaeologists are conspiring to lock away the tomb to prevent the public from learning that Odysseus was real and buried on Kefalonia so Ithaki can keep collecting Odyssey-themed tourism money.
 
It’s a bit much, particularly since in 2021 Metaxas praised the government for its conservation efforts and plans to build a protective roof over the site. If they were really trying to suppress the “truth,” why would Ministry of Culture give filmmakers access to the identification seals and let an outside expert make impressions of them and study them? As far back as 1999, Christina Souyoudzoglou-Haywood published an academic book, The Ionian Islands in the Bronze Age and Early Iron Age, discussing the tholos tomb, how it transforms our understanding of the Mycenaean political structure of Kefalonia, and acknowledging the possibility that it might reflect a “Homeric” arrangement where Kefalonia controlled Ithaki. But she cautioned that not enough evidence exists to draw such a conclusion. And that hasn’t changed. It’s not a secret; it’s just not proven.
 
Metaxas’s conspiracy theory is rather silly on its surface, since Metaxas’s ideas appear in contemporary tourist guides to Kefalonia, including the Berlitz Guide, and the tholos, far from being suppressed, is actively promoted in the tourist industry as a major attraction in that part of Greece, appearing in literally dozens of tourist guides since 2000.
 
Metaxas’s ideas are not pseudohistory in the mold of Ancient Aliens, but his ideas go much farther than the evidence allows and are rooted in the same belief that ancient myths, if properly interpreted through modern eyes, become an eyewitness guide to ancient history. The filmmakers, working for Morgan Freeman’s production company (Freeman provides narration for passages from The Odyssey), pull back at the end from Metaxas’s extreme ideas and instead hold only to a more modest and defensible conclusion that the Mycenaean-era tholos tomb supports the idea that Kefalonia was the original Homeric Ithaca. But by then the damage has been done, and the audience is left thinking that an eccentric old Greek found the actual body of Odysseus, still wearing the same clothes Homer put him in. 
48 Comments
Jesse Kalin
9/1/2024 01:19:59 pm

Actually, I didn't think that--that it was proven this was Odysseus,etc. Dog vs. lion was a problem. But basically, no hard evidence. However, the geographical features there, vs. their lack or unconvincingness on Ithaki, is important, and shifts weight to Kefalonia as central and the idea Homeric Ithaca is a kingdom of islands (how many suitors does Penelope have and where do they come form?). Kolonas's last, hedging, "if", remarks give some wight to this idea. Your remarks that no one is hiding this cite, or even the Odysseian claim, are nice. Thanks for the analysis.

Reply
Paul
9/1/2024 03:38:20 pm

Kolonas is not silly: If Ithaka existed, and if Odysseus existed, he would be buried in this tomb.

That is plain as day. We now live in a World that treats this as myth.

Reply
Joe Sane
9/14/2024 09:00:15 am

Of course, Odysseus did not exist. If he did, nothing in myth and epic a thousand years later would be accurate. The site is of great value because of archaeology and history, not myth. But we now live in a world where reality is treated as myth.

Kent
9/1/2024 02:47:49 pm

Is it possible that "Ithaca" and whatever words that go with it, metonyms and such just *sound* better in the verse version of the made-up story?

Reply
Paul
9/1/2024 03:36:04 pm

Clearly, to assert what you have in this article you are not Greek (which your names gives away also) and you know nothing about how Greek politics work.

And, as a solicitor, in my opinion, I would suggest you have come close to slandering the man in the documentary. How does his giving praise to the government for finally putting a roof over the Tholos tomb found 30 years earlier mean that his other criticisms are not valid? I can praise one action but be critical of many more and it does not mean that such criticisms are unjust, or unwarranted.

Why would the Greek Government not want to be the ones to upset the apple cart? This is obvious, and you acknowledge the reason in your article. In allowing "outsiders" to look at the evidence, they can be the ones who do so and then the Ithakians cannot say anything. I didn't think that "keon" versus "lion" was an issue. It makes sense that something was lost over time by bards who merely recited the lyrics! What about the grave circle? What about the road? Why has this not been excavated when Greeks so proudly protect archaeologial sites. You are calling the man and his wife liars. Shame on you.

Kolonas published articles, yes, but he did not formally write up his findings/views.

Further you ignore the key part, which is the interview at the end:

[Kolonas: … [in Greek] I gave an interview [in Oct. 1999, a Greek newspaper is shown in the documentary] and they asked me about Ithaca. And I answered them. I said the Ithaca of today is where it is. But the Homeric one is somewhere else. And the Ithakians were up in arms about it. They wanted my head!”.

Director: So, okay. It’s been a long time. When you look back on your career, how does this place?

Kolonas: My first priority is the tomb. The Tholos tomb in Tzannata.

Director: This tomb is the first priority. Why?

Kolonas. Einai endiaferon thema. Poly endiaferon. I’m not crazy. I am normal archeologist. This is a famous item. If Ithaka existed, and Odysseus existed, he would be buried in this tomb."]

What say you to that?

They found Troy from reading Homer. They found Mycenae from reading Homer. They found Nestor's Palace from finding Homer. Everyone else looked in Ithaki because of the name; but he found the tomb from reading the text of Homer because he had local knowledge (who reads Homer in the ancient Greek anymore?), and after putting two and two together about Reithron Harbour, Korakopetra (Raven's crag), Melissani (obviously) being the Cave of the Nympths, and Ainos being Niriton. IT ALL FITS the text of Homer! From this, he searched for the tomb and he found one. That similar items were found elsewhere is not relevant to what was found in the location it was found.

This is, in my honest opinion, a seriously flawed article, and possibly biased (although I cannot comment on that with any certainty).

I am not uneducated on the subject either. I am guessing that you are not either. You reluctance to accept what is, on the face of it, obvious, is a puzzle to me.

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Kent
9/3/2024 01:41:49 pm

I'm not a very parfait solicitor whatever that is, but I think you come close to slandering the reviewer. "You are calling the man and his wife liars. Shame on you."

The reviewer didn't even say Kolonos got his facts wrong, the reviewer simply added facts. Yet you call him a liar. Shame on you.

Keep in mind that in your telling "the man"'s first response when asked "Why?" is "I am not crazy." Maybe finding out why you left the first bit in Greek would be an interesting project. Yes I know what it says. The non-craziness of what you left out makes the omission even more shameful. It's as if you want the casual reader to think the guy's kneejerk response is to defend himself against accusations of being crazy. Harrumph.

As Homer said, "Beware of Greeks".

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Mark L
9/3/2024 02:00:58 pm

You're not a solicitor. Might want to look up the difference between "slander" and "libel", for one.

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Kent
9/3/2024 05:47:05 pm

Aren't you just a delight!

I know the difference Einstein. I simply bowed to the faux solicitor's usage so I didn't look like a total git who lives to go "Buh buh buh..."

Separate things legally but a reasonable person could argue that libel is a subset of slander. I don't care, but you go right to town.

And how do you know I'm not? The same way you know he is: not at all. It's the internet Jake and today's challenge is called "Go piss up a rope."

Paul
9/25/2024 05:26:02 pm

Lol, apologies. You are right, I should have said defaming (I was having a conversation with the writer in my head). To call his conspiracy theory silly is to implicitly call it a fiction of his imagination, i.e., made up. That's quite a claim to make without any support. Minor references to it in tourist guides does not prove otherwise.

Kent is quite an aggressive soul: called me a "faux solicitor" while hurling insults at Mark L... it's easy to lower standards, eh!

All I did was given an opinion on the article/writer's views. It's, I certainly didn't call anyone a liar :) Shame on you, Kent! Shame on you!

Thomas
12/9/2024 11:09:58 pm

Bravo, Mark L. for putting that phony in his place. I'm doing the same. Kent (or whatever your name is), Homer neither said nor wrote any such thing. What your rather scattered brain was unsuccessfully trying to bring forth was "TIMEO DANAOS ET DONA FERENTES" : I fear the Greeks even when bearing gifts. That is a line in Latin from Virgil's "Aeneid" written aproximately 700 years after Homer. Obviously, you are not a "parfait" anything, just a blundering fool. Bugger off, shilpit gommeril.

Joe Sane
9/14/2024 09:08:17 am

As for the Kolonas quote, he caved in front of a camera, or almost, because of the hypothetical hedge. And let's face it, if the burial site belonged to a kingdom, there would be a palace! But there is not. As for Schliemann, it's super he found the archaeological sites, but like Metaxas it was all dumb luck. And he destroyed most of what he found. No sane person uses Homer to find reality (I have read the Homeric epics in Greek several times, believe me). No rational person thinks that a mountain, a rocky hang-out of ravens, and a harbor (there is no description of it) adds up to evidence for "Ithaca." If that is enough, I could show you a million other places for the "true Ithaca"

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Thomas
12/9/2024 11:48:19 pm

I doubt that you could find your own ass without very specific directions written down for you, Onanist.

Jens
9/23/2024 02:03:56 am

They did not find Troy! They found something else.
Lanse aux meadows would be a more correct example.

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Thomas
12/9/2024 11:54:53 pm

Now we have a dimwitted Dutchman weighing in with a typically foolish, irrelevant comment. It's a pity that the Spanish didn't do for your lot back in the 17th century. Hit your head repeatedly with your klompen. Maybe that will stimulate some brain activity.

Thomas
12/9/2024 10:55:27 pm

Bravo, Paul. You perfectly refute the rather obnoxious article.

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Olurst
11/16/2025 01:37:19 am

Excellent reply and splendid arguments to the so called reviewer, bravo!

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An Over-Educated Grunt
9/2/2024 02:21:04 pm

Yeah, the idea that the Greek government is suppressing something that could bring in tourist dollars is silly on its face. They're so cash strapped that anything that brings money into the country, up to and including AA nonsense, is a candidate for endorsement.

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Ignatius
9/3/2024 09:56:42 pm

The Greek government and the local Ephorates (archeology) are totally different things. Ephorates are massively territorial and they have immense power. Archeology is the most powerful thing in Greece. Even the Prime Minister cannot remove an Ephor in a region.

If a local Ephor were to say- desire to take the dig site in a different direction than the unpublished archeologist, (which until recently would have been illegal- no longer can archeologists sit on a site forever and not publish) this would and could yield great fame and success. also: no two archeologist totally agree on anything. Archeology is not a science. Tourism is a nuisance for local Ephors.

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Paul
9/28/2024 08:06:10 am

Clearly, you too know very little about Greek politics!

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Ignatius
9/3/2024 09:21:54 pm

Interesting review. I actually know the people involved, the situation, and the archaeologists in question—archaeology is a small world. I can assure you that the filmmakers did their very best to distinguish between opinion and statements from the archaeologists responsible for the excavations.

The filmmakers consulted Christina Souyoudzoglou-Haywood early on regarding the Homeric parallels. In her publications (which are excellent, as are her digs), she initially expressed skepticism about the parallels, comparing them to other Mycenaean palaces. However, the text describes Odysseus as being in awe of these other places, noting that his kingdom was more rustic. The industry in his region was focused on timber from Ainos (formerly Neriton). In a later article, she drew stronger parallels and seems to be coming around, though the area is only just beginning to be excavated. There are incredible discoveries yet to be made, which is why the area is now a protected site.

Moreover, the filmmakers had to fight hard for this film to be released, precisely because of the reasons outlined in the documentary. The access they were granted to the seals and tombs was provided early on and has not been given again. In defense of the Ministry of Culture, it would be easier if Kolonas would publish his ongoing and seemingly unending analysis, which includes contributions from several archaeologists and bone analysis that promises to be truly groundbreaking. However, the rivalry among archaeologists is intense, as this subject brings out a lot of greed. After all, archaeologists, at their core, are still just grave robbers with fancy titles.

Although there have been publications on these digs, they have been preliminary and have not included Kolonas's opinion on which family this tomb likely belonged to. There are also many fascinating details that could not be included due to the jurisdiction of other archaeologists currently working on the site.

It’s important to understand that this tomb and its related subject have been highly controversial. It also touches on an ancient text that, until recently (see the latest edition of the Cambridge Handbook on the Aegean), Homer has been considered highly unreliable. The filmmakers likely used disclaimers because the film was heavily vetted by the Ministry, and until Kolonas publishes his findings, it cannot take a definitive stance. This film indeed took a bold approach, with the support of the archaeologist who conducted the excavation.

Furthermore, the golden brooch was likely a pressing of the seal, as the seal itself is a “negative” image of the actual design. The seal that Makis published was not an attempt to recreate the seal stone in gold but to show what the image would look like if it had been pressed into heated gold.

The seal is unique in several ways. John Younger, the world’s foremost seal expert, noted that he had never seen a deer like the one depicted on the seal. It appears to be a female Red deer fawn (common to that area at the time). The long ears and snout resemble a donkey, but Red deer more closely resemble moose. There are few, if any, lion/fawn seal stones in this position, a position that John Younger identifies as common on seals. Rock crystal seals are rare and were typically reserved for nobility, which is why they were so special to wear. This seal stone was a significant heirloom, as it was found in the main grave along with other important items. You can view the publication of all that was found online.

Greek archaeology is truly special; there’s nothing like it on Earth.

Many events led to the making of this film, and Makis’s story is integral to the discovery of this tomb and its excavation. If he hadn’t hinted at its location—since it’s on private property—it might still be undiscovered. He certainly deserves gratitude for that. Your skepticism is understandable, but unfortunately it lacks some needed perspective that you just can’t accomplish is 90 mins alone. But now the world knows it’s there, perhaps the Ephorste will get off his behind and repaid the roof and stop turning people away and trying to wish it away.

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Doc rock
9/5/2024 10:47:46 am

I worked archeological sites in three states and never robbed a grave. Only excavated one grave and that was to determine if it was a Civil War grave to try to prevent the whole area from being destroyed by construction. But maybe things work differently in Greece.

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Kent
9/5/2024 11:28:11 pm

I lean toward thinking it's a different animal but el diccionario says red deer is "馬鹿 mǎ lù red deer / fool / idiot (from Japanese "baka")" literally "horse deer" and I believe the Japanese term figures in their term for The Three Stooges. I'm inclined to think this is a different animal because geography.

The European red deer is the fourth largest in the deer family. I suspect the Asian version is 麠 or 麖 jīng red deer / sambar deer.
Asian and European both in the same family the boffins tell us but different genus.

I'm on the road so can't access my hieroglyphics database but I've got two fingers of Fergil & Underwood's for ya if that's a problem.
____________________
I was looking up the term "idiot" preparatory to going on the internet and there it was. Also on my screen.

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Thomas
12/9/2024 11:18:05 pm

What a sad, pompous buffoon you are! For a face to go with the word 'idiot' look in your mirror.

Thomas
12/9/2024 11:14:54 pm

Thank for your sane,moderate, well informed remark.

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Ignatius
9/3/2024 09:49:36 pm

Clarify: I didn’t mean to imply that *you* were an ignorant person, obviously not, but as far as this situation is concerned, your assumptions about the ministry of culture and skepticism about motives of Makis and his claims - these are, from no fault of your own, based in ignorance about a deeply complicated 30 year web of intrigue. Americans (and Brits) always base their perceptions on their own reality, but the Greek reality is simply not the same. After all, we didn’t invent drama (or perfect it as one could say the Russians did for the Novel) because drama and tragedy was foreign to us. Odysseus is important to us, and the discovery of this tomb and this possibility brings us great pride and hope. We are all grateful for it and even though it was hard-fought, we are grateful the ministry allowed the film to premiere. They fact that they did without the archeologists publication should tell you more about the power of this discovery than its implied dubious nature.
Σου εύχομαι ότι καλύτερο!

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Michael
9/4/2024 12:55:19 am

PBS did not require to affix any such disclaimer. That was a directive from the Ministry of Culture in order to gain permission to show the films archeological sites. the reason for this is that Kolonas, though he has publicly stated his opinion that this is Homeric Ithaki and the tomb of Odysseus “if they existed” ( he is going by the same burden of proof to call Pylos “Nestor’s” place or Mycenae “Agamemnon’s Kingdom” -so one shouldn’t diminish what he is saying by simply being a careful archeologist) Kolonas has still not published his findings on the dig- a valid point the filmmakers chose to include provided by the archeological service on the island. I heard yesterday (there is no hidden rumor “mythos” on Kefalonia or Ithaki), he was supposed to have published his book before this film premiered. This of course is headache for all, and therefore the MoC in Greece had no choice but to require this and the filmmakers respected this request. However, there are those who do not agree with this theory, or any theory about anything probably, but as all things in this life, some seem to be driven just as much by the will to prove a thing wrong as those who are driven to prove it true. This is the way… unfortunately or perhaps fortunately. Hard to say. But I tell what is totally ridiculous. Every time I drive by that area and do not see an active dig or excavation is a crime to this Island and to archeology. I don’t know who is responsible for this but it is a terrible terrible tragedy. Every day is another day for some idiot to loot that area. And nothing is really being done to protect it!

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Aw
9/4/2024 10:52:54 pm

Can someone explain how there could be a tomb for a character from a fictional story about one eyed giants, a six headed monster, and a witch goddess turning people into pigs?

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Joe Sane
9/14/2024 09:19:53 am

No, nobody can. Time for grown-ups and adults to value the site for its Mycenaean remains. Kefalonians need to stop abousing Ithacans by spouting such garbage

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Ignatius
9/5/2024 03:45:26 pm

The Homeric poem is an amalgamation of previous stories and myths wrapped around real events and real characters. And then it’s spread out through history. Additionally, many of the tales are about “hospitality” and how the wretched suitors were abusing Odysseus’s hospitality. The bards used these tales as a dramatic build to Odysseus’s return. In each story, there is a crime against hospitality which for the Greeks of this time, this was the highest form of insult. So the Cyclops is worst kind of host. He slaughters and eats his prisoners. Odysseus and his men eat the sacred cows of the sun god and were all cursed. It was common for the Mycenaeans to place themselves into the stories of previous poems and myths- and also symbols. So this seal stone is Minoan and preceded Odysseus by 300 years but it’s cleverly written in and described to reflect Odysseus, his very seal stone symbol representing the situation between lion and helpless fawn. So these tall tales became devices for the character to transmute their “Kleos” or their renown. Through the ages certain things were modified for more modern audiences (800-600 BC) but a tremendous amount was left as it was told 1200 BC. The Mycenaean Kings from Homer most likely existed. (Why would the make up fake kings and fake places- rather they would adapt older stories to their real kings and real places) we kno for ure that thwie palaces and homelands existed. Even the person Odysseus might have been a preexisting character that was hijacked by the ruling king who participated in the siege of Troy. Fascinating book: Why Homer Matters.

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Kent
9/7/2024 02:19:39 am

"The Homeric poem is an amalgamation of previous stories and myths wrapped around real events and real characters."

You start out truey but end up nonsensely. The Homeric poem is an amalgamation of previous stories and myths. FIFY. Rules make the game more fun and editing makes what you write not suck.

Why NOT make up kings? You have something against makeup kings? Are you a maquillaphobe Focker? Everything you said is equally applicable to Lord of the Rings. 'Member Gandalf chiding Theoden on the decline of hospitality in his halls? Neither Saruman nor the Orcs of Mordor displayed good hospitalitying. Rivendell on the other hand was Hospitality Central.

Let's look at some of the players in the Tomb Game:

U.S. Grant existed.
Ghengis Khan existed.
Alexander the Great existed.
Odysseus did not.

Leaving Jesus out because that's one of many third rails but I'm inclined to believe that he was the QAnon of his day, i.e. didn't exist.

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IGNATIUS
9/12/2024 09:09:39 pm

I had heard tales of Anachronismland but never did I believe I would meet the second chair clarinet player in their high school marching band! It’s an honor.

First off: to the Greeks, the word "mythos" meant “news,” so as sailors bringing in goods would arrive, those awaiting would say, “What’s the mythos?” or “What’s the news?” So let’s get some historical context kicked into your semanticals. First of all, myth to them was not the same as myth to you.

Too much to dissect your frankenlogic totally, but let’s start with your first strawgirl:

- Lord of the Rings was written by Tolkien.
- Odyssey: Poems and songs passed down orally for 500–1000 years.

Tolkien: 20th century, written on paper the moment it was conceived. Read to his pals in a cottage in the Kilns.

Homer: Bronze Age poem, assembled and passed down through bards. Usually sung in the megarons to the aristocracy, often songs about the wanax (king) or later the descendants of the wanax to establish primogeniture. Some Homeric scholars believe Telemachus may have been a great-grandson of Odysseus rather than his son.

The analogy you provided hearkens back to my blogging days, when everyone was suddenly an expert on everything. A tell-tale sign of a modern Wikipedia scholar: they cannot help themselves from applying modern principles and contextual analysis to ancient texts and cultures.

A better analogy or comparison would be to another famous Bronze Age text, also passed down through oral traditions—the Old Testament stories from the late Bronze Age. The story of David and Goliath echoes the warrior culture of Achilles calling out Hector: one warrior per camp settling the score, etc.

So, like almost all Bronze Age texts, these poems weren’t composed to satisfy the imagination of a 20th-century author who was bemoaning the loss of their ancient Norse myths to Christian missionaries. This Bronze Age poem was created to brag about the renown of great kings and establish their ascendancy from the gods. The bards were their biographers. But even that is an anachronism. The song truly made you immortal. Your spirit I lived IN the music.

For the Mycenaeans, singing about someone made them immortal. And you didn’t get a song unless you did some seriously heroic stuff. And homeland, properly represented, became even more important as time went on in this song- especially as bards were traded around. As the poem stretched on and outlived the heroes, the homeland and palace descriptions grew even more vivid. Swords and other things got upgraded, but the majority of the poetry was mostly locked by 1200 BCE around the time it all crumbled and their heroes were defeated. It’s easy to spot the later modifications to the poetry. So if their homeland and palace descriptions are spot-on, it stands to reason that the patriarch of each palace region would be represented. (To them, it would be the other way around.)

The Odyssey (and Iliad) is indeed more like the Bible than any of the other characters or tales you mentioned, and the literature more closely resembles real kings put through heroic trials, aided by the gods, to establish their importance and permanence in the memory of their tribes—not just stories told for fun. So while one cannot prove that the characters existed in the modern sense, you can definitely say that they likely existed, and certainly more likely than Gandalf. We know why, who, and how he was made up. If singing made someone immortal and for some reason it was vitally important to keep this poem going and memorized through the Dark Ages, I’m banking on the characters in it being based on real wanax rulers (priest-kings).

For fun, here is a lineage that will make more sense than your mythical mood board of characters that I’m sure seemed like a logical slam dunk. Be warned, you won’t find this in your Dan Brown guide to ancient history!


Alexander the Great (356–323 BCE)
- Macedonian king and military genius who created one of the largest empires in history, stretching from Greece to Egypt and into Asia.

Pyrrhus of Epirus (319–272 BCE)
- King of Epirus and a formidable general who fought against Rome, famously remembered for his costly victories ("Pyrrhic victories").

Marcus Furius Camillus (c. 446–365 BCE)
- Roman general and statesman credited with saving Rome from the Gauls and defeating the Etruscans in the 4th century BCE.

Pelopidas (c. 410–364 BCE)
- Theban general and close ally of Epaminondas, instrumental in Thebes’ rise to power and their victories over Sparta.

Epaminondas (c. 418–362 BCE)
- Theban general, credited with breaking Spartan dominance after the Battle of Leuctra in 371 BCE.

Lysander (c. 445–395 BCE)
- Spartan admiral who led the final defeat of Athens in the Peloponnesian War, securing Spartan dominance in Greece.

Brasidas (died 4

Kent
9/13/2024 12:13:35 pm

When you say "myth" means "news" you're cherrypicking a definition that suits your purpose today. That's fine I suppose.

Songs make you immortal? Harumph.

Star Trek II: "He's not really dead as long as we remember him."

Seinfeld: "She's not really dead if we find a way to remember her!"

also "It's not a lie, if YOU believe it."

It's been my experience that people are people. Perhaps your experience is different.

"So if their homeland and palace descriptions are spot-on..." That's a big "if" Biff, a hard ask and a non-starter. A threefer.

"If singing made someone immortal ..., I’m banking on the characters in it being based on real..." "If" and "I'm banking on", the Batman and Robin of rhetoric. What the eye does't see the chef gets away with. Strangely enough in LOTR the world was sung into existence. Just like the Mycenaeaeaens! You don't suppose...?

"For fun, here is a lineage..." Then you present not-a-lineage. Seems very Humpty Dumpty with you. All you're showing is that people existed. One would be hardpressed to argue against the existence of people.

Weak as water Captain Peacock and I am unanimous in that.



Thomas
12/9/2024 11:44:24 pm

Since you have decided to employ mere abuse I'll give you a taste of the same, except that I'll use actual words and coherent sentences, you immature drunkard. You are incapable of fixing anything; you're a braying jackass. You apparently believe that "truey" and "nonsensely" are real words. They are not and I have never heard anyone over the age of 5 use such absurd infantile made up words. Thanks to your inane babbling we now know why you watched the program. You're just an imbecilic gamer fanboy who thought you might pick up a thing or two to lord over your no doubt equally stupid gamer pals. Put the bottle down, boy, or use it to crack your useless head with, yahoo.

Joe Truth
9/14/2024 09:21:53 am

You lost me at "real events and real characters." And don't even try with the dating...

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Thomas
12/9/2024 11:28:18 pm

Excellent comment and "Why Homer Matters" is a very good book indeed. What the less educated, less well read sneerers here should do is read Robert Graves preface to both his "The White Goddess" and his translation of the Iliad titled The Anger of Achilles". They should read a lot more and comment a lot less.

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E.P. Grondine
9/7/2024 02:51:55 pm

If there is a tholos, there should be a palace nearby.

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Joe
9/14/2024 09:25:38 am

"Homer: Bronze Age poem, assembled and passed down through bards. Usually sung in the megarons to the aristocracy, often songs about the wanax (king) or later the descendants of the wanax to establish primogeniture. Some Homeric scholars believe Telemachus may have been a great-grandson of Odysseus rather than his son.

The analogy you provided hearkens back to my blogging days, when everyone was suddenly an expert on everything."

Tears rolling down my face in laughter!!!

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Ignatius
9/16/2024 11:35:16 pm

Been fun! Cheers! Tolkien was well versed in the ancient texts of Homer and could probably read them backwards and forwards in Ancient Greek. He also equated in his letters Gondor to Greece. It's easy to draw comparisons because Tokien freely admitted that he did so. I'm not sure how one says "Gondor is as real as Ithaca" when clearly one is a real place, just as Greece is a real place, and Gondor is a made up place.

Some good lectures for starters when it comes to Homer and deeper understanding of the text: The Odyssey of Homer
By: Elizabeth Vandiver, The Great Courses
Narrated by: Elizabeth Vandiver
Series: The Great Courses: Western Literature. Also another great book "Why Homer Matters" though his chapter on oral traditions are a bit anachronistic- the Balkan peasants are not the same thing as the Mycenaean Bards coming from the Minoan traditions of music, language, art and symbols. but whatever. it's still a terrific read.

Also, your draw to use Tolkien as an example makes me think you must have read old Moses Finley's assessment of the classics. He was a product of his time- things are changing now with new archeology in the area.

I'll sign out and wish everyone well with quote from Cambridge Companion to the Aegean Bronze Age: chapter on Homer, and more current views on veracity of these oral traditions: latest edition :

"Nonetheless, there is a clear similarity between the portrayal of Nestor and the kingdom of Messenia in Odyssey Book 3 and the picture derived from the Pylos Linear B tablets and the iconographical program of the Palace of Nestor. In both cases, a specific palatial center and its leader are preoccupied with ritual piety and territorially unifying ceremonies. It is arguable that the kings of Pylos and Messenia were not fictionalized as exemplars of kingly and communal piety, but were incorporated and preserved in the oral tradition as a "true" historical memory. In conclusion, we might recall the massive community-uniting sacrifices of bulls conducted by Nestor in Homer's Odyssey Book 3. There Telemachus, son of Odysseus, arrives, searching both for his father and for role models - his own has been absent for many years - of the "good king" that he himself is on the verge of becoming. He immediately sees nine companies of men (compare the nine main communities in the Hither Province of Mycenaean Pylos), each sacrificing nine bulls under the supervision of their good king Nestor. This scene defines the main characteristic of the king of Pylos throughout this book: his pious attention to religious
ceremony.This is the same aspect of rulership that we see most in evidence in the iconographical program of the Palace of Nestor, in its archaeological remains, and in the Linear B textual documentation from Pylos. The description of the king of Pylos in Odyssey Book 3 then looks not like fiction, but like preserved traditional memory slightly "heated up" for emphasis."

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Kent
9/17/2024 12:15:22 pm

"I'm not sure how one says 'Gondor is as real as Ithaca'". That's a straw man, no one's saying that so suck it. In the nicest possible way. What THIS poster is saying is "Ithaca is as imaginary as Gondor." Maybe have Mom or Dad help you with this part.

Blah blah blah typey typey typey. Ithaca's a real place? Which one? Clearly there are at least two candidates, they can't both be real, though people do go there so they must each be real. I'm declaring a conundrum but I didn't make it so la la la la la la I don't care.

Of course Ithaca's a real place, it's a town in New York.
Arcadia was a real place. In Canada.
Neverland was a real place, the old Jackson ranch in California.
Eden's a real place, in North Carolina and Maryland. Two, just like Ithaca.

Obviously the Jerusalem artichoke has deep ties to the Old Testament because of the name. Right?

You need to get after the critico-historical approach son.

It's common to name real places after imaginary places. Applying the rubric that people are people I gainsay your implication that "the Greeks would never do that, it's all real, lineages blah blah."

And then the standard internet vow to go away. It never disappoints. Except when it's followed by some goddam homework assignment with no em-effing c-essing paragraph breaks. THAT is disappointing.

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Ignatius
9/19/2024 09:01:53 pm

Your argument is so full of logical fallacies… (this I studied for years and taught one semester on it) and I think just an easier way to line out your adolescent and dismissive responses is just pointing them out. Ive already posted all that im gonna post about history. What follows was like picking daisies. If I was still teaching it wound be a terrific example for a test.


1. Straw Man Fallacy: You claim the argument is a straw man ("Gondor is as real as Ithaca") but then shift the point to "Ithaca is as imaginary as Gondor." This misrepresents the original claim. The debate here centers on whether there’s historical evidence that Ithaca (from Homer) corresponds to a real location, specifically Kefalonia, and not whether it is wholly imaginary like Gondor from Tolkien's fiction. You are deflecting from the actual historical discussion.

2. False Dichotomy: Your argument presents a false choice: "Which one? Clearly there are at least two candidates, they can't both be real." You ignore the possibility that one site could align with Homeric descriptions better than the other. The existence of multiple candidates doesn't invalidate the claim that one might be the historical Ithaca. Just because Ithaca in New York shares the name doesn't mean it negates the historical reality of the Greek Ithaca. I mean come on man.

3. Red Herring: The examples of Arcadia in Canada, Neverland, Eden, and Jerusalem artichoke are irrelevant and distract from the central point. (You forgot Sardinia Indiana and Monet, TX) These comparisons are attempts to sidetrack the conversation by focusing on places with similar names rather than the historical validity of Ithaca in Greece.

4. Appeal ro Sarcasm or Ad Hominem: Phrases like "Mom or Dad help you with this part" or "blah blah blah" undermines any serious engagement . These are examples of ad hominem attacks, intended to belittle “me” rather than address the substance of the argument. Yawn.

5. Appeal to Ridicule: A favorite of the media and Trump. The comparison of Eden, Ithaca, and other mythological names to towns in the U.S. is an attempt to make the argument appear absurd without actually engaging with the historical evidence regarding Ithaca. It mocks the argument rather than addressing its core.

6. Slippery Slope: your statement "It's common to name real places after imaginary places... applying the rubric that people are people I gainsay your implication" creates an exaggerated and oversimplified assumption that, because some modern places are named after fictional locations, ancient Greeks must have done the same. This ignores the context of naming conventions in history and myth. It’s a lazy lazy argument. But one of my favorite fallacies because it sounds like a punch until you realize it’s just dad-gas.

7. Lack of Evidence: You provide no substantive evidence to counter the historical scholarship regarding Ithaca on Kefalonia other than “people make stuff up all the time. Harry Potter! Gandalf” Instead, you rely on sarcasm and irrelevant comparisons, avoiding a reasoned critique of the archaeological or literary findings. At least the poster did an*little* digging around, even tho his assumptions were just based upon limited knowledge and therefore a lot of unintended conjecture. Some assumptions I would have made myself, which is why I entered the convo here to provide some context. unfortunately, it’s just another troll den in here.

Reply
Thomas
12/10/2024 12:02:18 am

Ignatius, there's no point in trying to educate or reason with comic book/dumb tv shows/gamer fanboy. He's a hopelessly ignorant, comically immature, pugnacious punk.

Reply
Kent
9/20/2024 02:37:44 pm

#1. Straw Man Fallacy. YES. That is what you committed, as I explained above and provide below for your ready reference, College Boy. This is something YOU typed, YOU brought up Gondor. It's like I mentioned the Green Party and you're on me for dissing Brooklyn. Then having committed Straw Man you LIE and Move The Goalposts which you fail to point out, College Boy, at least in Item #1 which is the only one I've read.

I was discussing hospitality in literature which was originally brought up by you in borderline retarded fashion.

""I'm not sure how one says 'Gondor is as real as Ithaca'". [<--THAT is the lie, where you're not sure about something you made up out of whole cloth.] That's a straw man, no one's saying that so suck it."

I could type all the numbers and keep going but that would be tiresome like your stuff. "I'll sign out" as I hinted is the mark of someone who is lying and trying to present self as scorned or mistreated and you proved that. Thing is, it's the announcement of leaving followed by not leaving that STARTS the scorn because it's such a common move, a trope as you eggheads would say. Today's letter is F. I still chuckle, College Boy, when I think of a list of randos presented as "a lineage". You funny.

Reply
Ignatius
9/20/2024 09:04:58 pm

You are spiraling, young squire. Chill. I wish I were a college boy again. Life is too short. I didn't enjoy college enough. I did teach college, though. Not anymore. And I do miss it. You're making me miss it, you little rascal, you!... you and your post-college, non-classical curriculum-based six-shooter word-popping ballyhoo!

But first, in maturity, I must point out that you were the one who drew the parallels to LOTR a priori (from earlier). Here’s the main one you posted:

"Everything you said is equally applicable to Lord of the Rings. 'Member Gandalf chiding Théoden on the decline of hospitality in his halls? Neither Saruman nor the Orcs of Mordor displayed good hospitality. Rivendell, on the other hand, was Hospitality Central." - Kënt, the forgetful.

Ok! Drum roll and cue the gospel choir! Here come the Kënt Fallacy encores...

Ad Hominem Fallacy:
The repeated use of personal attacks, such as "College Boy" and "borderline retarded fashion" (that’s "borderline cognitively disabled fashion" to you, Kënt!) distracts from the actual argument and focuses on insulting moi, which is a classic ad hominem approach. (Plus, it's punching up. And that makes me sad.) Instead of addressing my points, you attempt to discredit me personally based on zero evidence—or maybe there was? I only remember your Tolkien analogies (ibid).

Straw Man Fallacy (your favorite!):
Ironically, you accuse me of a straw man fallacy but create one yourself. The claim that I made up something "out of whole cloth" (e.g., "I'm not sure how one says 'Gondor is as real as Ithaca'") is a misrepresentation of my argument, which was just to show you that using that analogy wasn't fair and was anachronistic (avoiding the insulting process of heading down this logical fallacy road). Your earlier argument was literally this Gondor comparison, which you are now accusing me of authoring (ibid). Again, you don't engage with my actual point, but instead construct a weaker and nonexistent version, made of your own straw innards, and then attack it.

Moving the Goalposts:
You accuse me of this fallacy, but your response shifts the focus of the discussion (from the original literary debate about hospitality and Ithaca) to unrelated tangents, such as insults about my "announcing leaving followed by not leaving." (I'll admit, I was trying to bow out with a nice peace sign and some reading that might move the needle on your calcified position about ancient texts—maybe it's not helpful to your super original Jesus theory? Is that the reason for the hostility here, Kënt??

Strike that, your honor. Unnecessary psychologizing!) But you sort of took a piss on it, and that’s kinda rude... AND, I’m half-Greek—drama is in my blood. So you brought me back.

Red Herring:
The mention of random concepts such as "Green Party and Brooklyn" and the "sign-off discussion" distract from the main issue. These diversions throw the conversation off course and prevent the central issue (hospitality and the literary debate about the lack of modern-day Ithaki toponyms and archeological evidence compared to the richness of all of these on nearby Kefalonia) from being resolved.

Appeal to Ridicule:
Statements like "eggheads" and "Today’s letter is F" are attempts to mock or trivialize my position rather than address the core of my (and many archaeologists who excavated this area’s) argument. This mocks the discussion instead of offering substantive rebuttals. So sad, Kënt. I'm no genius, but I’m seein’ a pattern here...

But I have spent too long on this.

But so you won't be so upset by my departure as before, I will indulge in some pageantry. (Cue: Mahler adagietto from Mahler 5.)

Dearest Kënt, my dear pithy picaresque, it has been fun. I haven't had one of these little bloggy comment white-glove-slap-fights in maybe... 20 years? Made me feel young again, though not college young as you had hoped. I blush.

You are a hoot. And an entertaining little writer. Might want to deal with some of that anger, though. Life is too short! In the end, this is fun stuff to talk about, and being snarky about it is just a waste of energy and your talent. I hope that echoes of this conversation will someday chip away the big wooden Greek dildo occupying your soul, crowding out your better gifts. Until then, yours affectionately, ZORO.

Reply
Kent
9/20/2024 11:53:18 pm

And then you go on and on with the Decline and Fall of Ignatius's Mental State. Haven't read it but honestly probably will in the near future. But that's not for now. You all know how Father Clifford felt about Assumpta.

What I'd really like is to hear more about what your thoughts are. Please go on College Boy. Anyone who's seen Red West from Elvis's Memphis Mafia in Baa Baa Black Sheep knows what I mean. Hamburger James laughs at you.

Reply
George Metaxas
10/4/2024 02:35:07 am

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Anyway, most indications are in favor of Lefcas as the ancient Ithaka.

Reply
Xavier
11/7/2024 07:12:24 pm

I bought into the several geographical matches he found on the site, the fact that the island was much more likely to support bronze age civilization than Ithaki, and I loved the idea that the Tholos was found on Kephallonia as circumstantial but compelling. The fact that a brooch matched a passage from the Odyssey on the fanciest warrior’s tomb is but one proof of the argument and not confirmation. Homer being an Asian immigrant theory places him far from West Greece, but these contributions affect both archaeology and our identification further with oral literature theories about these epics.

Reply
George Metaxas link
11/9/2024 03:43:08 am

I may propose an extract (in English) from a brief book of mine (in Greek), that among other ideas about the whereabouts of Odysseus and of Homer, suggests that today Lefkas is most probably Odysseus Ithaca: https://geometax12.blogspot.com/2019/05/where-was-homers-ithaca.html
If someone is further interested, there are some more extracts in English of that book (look at the index in the blog).

Reply
Vojtech Hlinka
11/17/2024 06:12:29 am

As an archaeologist, I find the Mycenean seal and Odysseus's brooch fascinating. The Mycenean seal especially looks like a star chart. We see the symbol for the Babylonian plough constellation on the left. The lion or dog appears representative of Sagittarius, in Babylonian constellation charts shown as a panther (Nergal). Near the Nergal constellation we find the Babylonian Stag constellation. In European imagery the panther is usually translated to lion or a dog. The Sagittarius constellation points to both the centre of the Milky Way and the galactic centre. It would have been invaluable to Greek mariners like Odysseus as a navigation aid.

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