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"American Antiquity" Features Special Section Reviewing Pseudo-Archaeology

7/17/2015

55 Comments

 
The current edition of American Antiquity (vol. 80, no. 3) contains a section devoted to pseudo-archaeology, and it features some terrific reviews of fringe history books familiar to regular readers of this blog. I’m not sure exactly when the July number of the journal will hit your local library, but when it does, you should check out some of the interesting pieces examining works by pseudo-archaeological writers like Graham Hancock, Robert Bauval, Andrew Collins, Philip Coppens, and more. If I had to sum it up in a sentence, I’d say that the overarching theme is that pseudo-archaeology books are glib, ignorant, and a little bit racist. I should also say that I am proud to note that several author recommend my books and website as resources for understanding fringe history.
According to the introductory essay by Donald H. Holly, Jr., the intent of the reviews is to offer curious laymen and especially inquisitive college students an academic perspective on popular archaeological fantasies, and to inform archaeologists of what the public is really reading about the ancient past.

I don’t want to spoil the quality of the reviews by repeating too much of the information. Instead, I’ll list some of the books under consideration and the well-chosen set of scholars who handle each skillfully: Graham Hancock’s Fingerprints of the Gods is reviewed by Ken Feder. Philip Coppens’s The Ancient Alien Question is reviewed by Jeb Card. Andrew Collins’s Göbekli Tepe: Genesis of the Gods is reviewed by Eric H. Cline. Robert Bauval’s and Thomas Brophy’s Black Genesis is reviewed by Ethan Watrall. Gary A. David’s Star Shrines and Earthworks of the Desert Southwest is reviewed by Stephen H. Lekson. Frank Joseph’s The Lost Colonies of Ancient America is reviewed by Larry J. Zimmerman, though sadly without mention of Joseph’s Nazi past, which is relevant to the theme of white cultural dominance. John A. Ruskamp’s Asiatic Echoes, about alleged Chinese pictograms in the desert southwest, is reviewed by Angus R. Quinlan. William D. Conner’s Iron Age America before Columbus is reviewed by H. Kory Cooper. And Richard J. Dewhurst’s The Ancient Giants who Ruled America is reviewed by Benjamin M. Auerbach, who is an expert on ancient American bones and notes that among the hundreds of skeletons he has personally measured, including some which were also cited from inaccurate reports as giants in Dewhurst’s book, there were no “giants.” No skeleton, he said, measured more than 190 cm (6’3”) in height.

In these generally excellent reviews, the authors collectively express dismay that the pressures of modern academia have left the public with unreliable fringe writers as their most important guides to the ancient past while archaeologists talk mostly to one another through specialist publications. They also point to trends familiar to readers of this blog, particularly the endless recycling of Victorian-era data and hypotheses, as well as the implicit racism that carries over from that era into many of the new incarnations. Native Americans especially receive the short end of the stick, with their achievements reassigned to almost literally every other people on earth, a holdover from the colonial and Victorian periods, when ideological justifications for seizing Native lands took precedence over facts.

One theme that recurred, however, went largely unremarked upon, and that was the quite frequent appearance of various forms of the Watchers-Giants myth familiar from Genesis 6:4. While it is made explicit in Dewhurst’s Ancient Giants—about the Giants—and Collins’s Göbekli Tepe, where he suggests that the Watchers and Nephilim were Neolithic shamans with advanced education (he also talks of the secret scrolls of Seth, a late adaptation of the tablets of Enoch), it is also implicit in many of the other books. Coppens’s aliens rest upon foundations drawn from 1 Enoch, and Graham Hancock’s lost civilization is Atlantis, for which it is no coincidence that Ignatius Donnelly called it the “antediluvian world.” The great white gods that ruled Atlantis were for him the Sethites, euhemerized Watchers from early Christian lore who lived before the Flood.

And that moniker—antediluvian—is also extremely important. The Watchers-Giants myth isn’t necessarily important in and of itself, but it serves a vital purpose in casting each author’s lot with those who agree that the Great Flood is the great demarcation point in human history. While many of the authors give lip service to a creationist denial of evolution, at a deeper level, they are still trying to come to terms with Lyell’s geology, and the suggestion that grew out of that work that the geological record and the Biblical one do not align around astrological or divine catastrophes. Authors like Dewhurst simply deny geology and adopt creationist views of the Flood, while more sophisticated fabricators of history like Collins and Hancock and Bauval try their best to identify the Flood with the end of the Ice Age and the rising sea levels that followed. Either way, the point remains the same: More important even than battling evolution is to restore the reality of the oldest and, in theory, most testable myth of all: the Great Flood. As theologians of the early nineteenth century realized, if geology disproves the Flood, then it calls into question faith in the literal reality of myth and legend.

55 Comments
CFC
7/17/2015 08:49:12 am

It's great to hear that your books and website are being recommended by contributors to this publication. Well deserved. Keep up the great work!

Reply
Joe Scales
7/17/2015 11:20:32 am

By not having his works included in these reviews, Scott Wolter will take it as tacit approval for his theories and add these reviewers to his imagined list of credentialed supporters...

Reply
Only Me
7/17/2015 02:13:26 pm

This deals with pseudo-archaeology, Joe. Remember, archaeology has /nothing/ to do with Scott Wolter's work. He deals with questions of geology, dontcha know? :)

Reply
Don holly
7/17/2015 03:26:59 pm

Many thanks for posting this. I became aware of your excellent website and blog when assembling these reviews. Thanks for your support. Keep up the good work!

Reply
Mark L
7/17/2015 09:04:14 pm

I'd like to read it, but as a British guy I guess my local library won't be carrying it. Will you be offering it as a downloadable file from your site? I'd drop a few ££ on something interesting like this.

Reply
David Bradbury
7/18/2015 09:35:06 am

If you are a user of a university or other library which takes JSTOR, you should be able to access American Antiquity online that way.

William Conner link
7/18/2015 03:55:29 pm

This is William Conner, and I am author of "Iron Age America:Before Columbus."

Reply
Glenn K
7/18/2015 04:44:23 pm

Einstein said something like. ..progress comes not from the accumulation of facts, but from the daring speculation based upon those facts...These"pseudo science" researchers make brilliant, daring speculations based on the meager available evidence. The "academic" reviewers deal only with what can be "proven" now, with fact based evidence.
Seems their approach to evaluating these alternative theories may be flawed from the get go, as they take on the preconceived role of debunker.

Reply
Only Me
7/18/2015 07:09:42 pm

Except these speculations are based on concepts that time and accumulated facts have proven are wrong, hence why they are considered pseudoscience.

Consider, again, the example Jason included in his article:

"And Richard J. Dewhurst’s /The Ancient Giants who Ruled America/ is reviewed by Benjamin M. Auerbach, who is an expert on ancient American bones and notes that among the hundreds of skeletons he has personally measured, including some which were also cited from inaccurate reports as giants in Dewhurst’s book, there were no 'giants.' No skeleton, he said, measured more than 190 cm (6’3”) in height."

If interpretation of available data is continuously influenced by Victorian era ideas, of what use is all that "brilliant, daring" speculation?

Reply
Glenn
7/19/2015 12:34:17 am

You're operating on the assumption that all the facts and evidence is known and all current interpretation correct. Has that ever proved to be the case? For many of these topics the verdict may not be in yet. Isn't it possible some time in the future, say in a few hundred years, we'll actually have made contact with extraterrestrials or confirmed a great pre-flood "lost civilization" existed, proving some of these researchers visionary instead of wrong? Time will be the ultimate judge of the pseudoscience theories.

Reply
Shane Sullivan
7/19/2015 04:48:56 am

The trouble is, even if the inexplicable lack of artifacts and cultural influence from a large-scale lost civilization could be explained in the future and it turns out there really was some Atlantis-like global empire in the distant past, that still wouldn't change the fact that "researchers" Graham Hancock and Andrew Collins play fast-and-loose with the facts and leap to unsupportable conclusions.

If something like that does happen, I trust that history will make clear that it is *despite* the bumbling and dishonest efforts of fringe theorists, and not because of them, that we learn the truth.

Reply
Glenn
7/19/2015 05:03:10 am

You make my point exactly, much of what's seen as "fringe" today may be accepted as mainstream someday.
Disparaging the messenger as bumbling or dishonest is simply your editorial take on it. We should give credit where/when credit is due, without the prejudice of personal views.

Shane Sullivan
7/19/2015 06:02:44 am

You're assuming that modern fringe research would have anything to do with such a discovery. The discovery of a lost super-civilization wouldn't make fringe figures correct if it turns out they were looking in all the wrong places. Considering how often a little research has shown them to be demonstrably wrong, it's a matter of fact that they're either dishonest or incompetent.

Heck, Graham Hancock openly admits to being selective with the evidence he presents: http://www.grahamhancock.com/features/trenches-p3.htm

"So it is certainly true, as many of my critics have pointed out, that I am selective with the evidence I present. Of course I'm selective! It isn't my job to show my client in a bad light!"

If there's evidence against your pet lost civilization theory, it is not only your job but your responsibility as a morally sound human being to show it. That is how we know that, if Mu/Lemuria/Waga/Númenor is ever discovered to be more than fantasy, Graham Hancock won't be implicit in the discovery: He admits to hiding anything that disproves his own ideas, which means there are things that disprove them.

Only Me
7/19/2015 05:50:14 am

"You're operating on the assumption that all the facts and evidence is known and all current interpretation correct."

No, I'm not. All the speculation being put forth by fringe theorists is based on the facts and evidence that IS known. What they are doing is reinterpreting that, to support ideas that are not supported by the facts and evidence, at all.

The current interpretation put forth by legitimate experts IS correct, with the caveat that new facts or evidence might change it.

Making contact with extraterrestrials in the future does nothing for the ancient alien theory. To prove a pre-Flood lost civilization existed, first we have to determine if the Flood actually took place.

I'm all for speculation, but, as your reference to Einstein stated, "daring speculation based on those facts." He's saying to take what is known and form questions from that, not to misuse or misrepresent those facts in service of a "theory" that has no factual basis on its own.

Reply
Glenn
7/19/2015 06:30:26 am

Again, making my point perfectly. Many past interpretations based on the available facts are turning out to have been incorrect as new and old evidence is reinterpreted in the proper context. Many of these alternative thinkers are providing that context even if their not right about the details. And yes, when attached many may behave as advocates for their theories (something quite correctly academics are forbidden from doing) presenting only the supporting aspects of their findings.
If a tee pee post hole is reinterpreted to actually be a feature of a calendar site, why should we continue to interpret it as a tee pee post hole if it's not. Of course if a Tribal nation is not considered sophisticated enough to have calendar sites or practiced observational astronomy, then the calendar site post hole will always be seen, incorrectly as a tee pee post hole.

Only Me
7/19/2015 07:36:45 am

It seems you're picking and choosing where you want to agree.

You said, "If a tee pee post hole is reinterpreted to actually be a feature of a calendar site, why should we continue to interpret it as a tee pee post hole if it's not." First, it has to be proven with evidence to actually be a calendar site feature; otherwise, both interpretations are equally valid. Only one can be correct, and that's the one supported by the evidence.

This is my point: coming to differing conclusions based on the same evidence is part and parcel of the scientific method. Simply reinterpreting facts and evidence, that are supported by other facts and evidence, to push a theory that has no merits of its own, is the bread and butter of fringe theorists. No fringe theorist has changed what we have learned thus far. Most are too busy making allegations of conspiracies and cover-ups, self-plagiarizing their own books or on speaking tours promoting the same material they've been promoting for years or decades.

Horton
7/26/2015 05:02:34 pm

Time has already been the judge. These authors are just rehashing worn-out ideas that date back to the late 1800s. They are as visionary as bleeding people for "bad humors," nostrums, and "miasma" as the cause of disease.

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Glenn
7/19/2015 08:08:58 am

True, smart, rational people can look at the set of facts and reach different conclusions. It happens on juries and in politics all the time. To consider the weaknesses of different approaches to understanding mysteries of the deep past as offering nothing new, being self serving, plageristic and just CYA, may be throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Let's just agree to disagree.

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Only Me
7/19/2015 08:46:38 am

That's fine. I was merely challenging your assertion that fringe theorists are changing our understanding of history through their theories.

It is my opinion that they do, indeed, offer nothing new and are self-serving. Fringe theorists accept those details that seemingly support their theories, while ignoring those that don't. This isn't how the scientific method works.

Two prime examples: the pyramids and Puma Punku. The Egyptians left us records and archaeological evidence that shows how the pyramids were built. There are simple hand tools littered about Puma Punku, undeniable evidence of how its builders accomplished the task. However, there are those who still insist-in direct contradiction of the evidence-the pyramids and Puma Punku were constructed by aliens with advanced technology. I don't see how that's helping to change our understanding of human history, at all. And this has been a claim that has been repeated since /Chariots of the Gods/ was first published.

I honestly don't need aliens, giants or lost civilizations to explain the past. I'm happy acknowledging the remarkable achievements of ancient people that didn't have our technology of today.

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Glenn
7/19/2015 09:51:01 am

The two are not mutually exclusive. We could have been visited and had ancient astronauts have a hand in our history and also have been extremely sophisticated and ingenious as an ancient population on Earth, creating many marvels and wonders with no outside help. Graham Hancock has never claimed he sticks to the scientific method but there were many things that are accepted such as dowsing which do not meet that threshold. People like Chris Dunn show that the evidence doesn't support the conclusion, when it comes to the exactness of some of the specifications and tolerances of the Egyptian constructions and the tools shown to be available to do the work at the time. The bottom line is the ancients clearly had methods and practices we do not fully understand today. I believe to claim they didn't and that there is no mystery does a disservice to seeking the truth.

Only Me
7/19/2015 10:18:58 am

"The two are not mutually exclusive. We could have been visited and had ancient astronauts have a hand in our history"

The possibility exists, but notice the difference between what you said and the claims made by AAT. You said *could have*, while AATs have been saying it *did* happen.

Therein lies the problem. To make such a bold claim requires evidence. This is a natural phenomenon claimed to have happened in many parts of the world, therefore, there should be some physical testable evidence. Everything I've seen thus far has an earthly or man-made origin that precludes alien contact. Art and stories are just that; I want something that can be independently verified.

As you said yourself, the ancients had methods and practices we don't understand today. For me, that's enough of a reason to not need the aliens/giants/lost civilizations that are recycled perpetually in fringe literature.

Harry
7/19/2015 10:35:08 am

Glenn,

Pardon me for butting in here.

If someone fabricates evidence, grossly misinterprets evidence or ignores evidence that contradicts his or her thesis, I see no reason to believe that person's conclusions. If it later turns out that he or she is right, then I am perfectly willing to modify my views and accept that he or she was right.

However, if the foundation of a fringe theory is built on sand, the chance that it will turn out to be correct is very small, and if it turns out to be correct, it is only accidentally correct. Until then, I feel entitled to disdain the poor methodology and illogic on which such a claim is founded.

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Glenn
7/19/2015 10:59:23 am

Some claims sure, but not all. Again the baby and the bath water. I wouldn't have disdain for dowsing just because I can't explain it to the standard of the scientific method.

Speaking of foundations built on sand; many of the pillars of traditional beliefs and attached dogma are crumbling on nearly a daily basis making way for a new paradigm.

Joe Scales
7/19/2015 01:01:54 pm

"Speaking of foundations built on sand; many of the pillars of traditional beliefs and attached dogma are crumbling on nearly a daily basis making way for a new paradigm."

Fringe theorists use this tactic quite often. Basically they're saying because other theories have been proven wrong, we shouldn't ignore whatever they're pushing. True, maybe if we lived another hundred years, we might find much of what we know today and take for granted is wrong. But it's going to take science and a scholarly approach to establish these new truths. Even if you ignore the fact that fringe theorists are all out there for a buck, you cannot forgive their distortion of fact and their poisoning the well of knowledge. How many times have the Ancient Alien contingent exclaimed that "mainstream" science/archeology/historians are baffled by whatever question is posed on the show... when that truly isn't the case. They create confusion and then attempt to clarify it with fantasy.

Yes, we've seen numerous scientific principles and historical facts evolve with new knowledge and discovery within our lifetimes. Yet fairy tales remain as they always were.

Glenn
7/19/2015 02:10:16 pm

Many "fringe theorist" are sincere and authentic and proud to be one; and not just out to make a buck...in some circles anyway. Their credo is...the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But we can only work with what we have and our minds.

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Shane Sullivan
7/19/2015 03:51:54 pm

I think we're all just waiting for a single iota of evidence that wasn't fabricated out of thin air. If by some astronomical happenstance John Anthony West and his unscrupulous buddies contribute to it in some way, I'm sure everyone here will join me in saluting them.

Until then, they might want to at least try to salvage their credibility by admitting that their blind speculation is just that.

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Day Late and Dollar Short
7/20/2015 03:57:36 am

Fringe theorists are Donald Rumsfeld?

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Joe Scales
7/20/2015 04:21:30 am

"Their credo is...the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Which is the retort to a form of argument from ignorance, where I suppose in this case would be when someone tells you aliens did not visit ancient Earth because there is no evidence of same. Said credo is still ultimately meaningless on its own, as the argument can still be made that the fringe theorists have not proven any such visitation occurred, and the burden for such extraordinary claims still rests with them. I mean, if we're going to get all logical about this. Otherwise I could tell you that Pluto has a creamy milk chocolate center, and you can't prove me wrong...

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Jennifer link
7/20/2015 01:13:15 am

Is the issue out yet? If so, do you have a link to it?

Reply
Jason Colavito link
7/20/2015 05:15:30 am

It's not online. Most major libraries will have a copy or can get one from interlibrary loan, and if you can wait 2-3 years, it will be in JSTOR.

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Glenn
7/20/2015 05:24:19 am

Logically is the only way to look at these claims. To look at them emotionally or to judge them emotionally, with anger and disdain, as has been done here, only serves to cloud the picture further. Reading their work fully, which I'd be curious to know just how many of the reviewers or commenters actually did, is to realize the depth and passion of their research. To claim their books are filled with empty words, lies and deceit is truly coming from a place of closed minded ignorance. I happen to personally know JAW and GBH very well for many years and can tell you they are not scoundrels and deserve better treatment than that which they have received here and elsewhere. But they are quite use to it by now yet continue to provide alternative, "outside the box" views that can lead to profound discoveries.....but just not to your standards of satisfaction.

Reply
Joe Scales
7/20/2015 07:02:04 am

"Logically is the only way to look at these claims."

Agreed; and here is where they fail


"To look at them emotionally or to judge them emotionally, with anger and disdain, as has been done here, only serves to cloud the picture further."

That's painting with a rather broad brush, and inaccurate to boot. Here the claims are dealt with academically, filling in the blanks with true research, facts and sanity. The anger and disdain are reserved for the mendacity of certain proponents of the ancient alien theory and the gullible that fall prey to them.


"Reading their work fully, which I'd be curious to know just how many of the reviewers or commenters actually did, is to realize the depth and passion of their research."

I for one do not look to sensationalized books from those without credentials and/or peer review to get my science or history. I grant you that ancient alien theories are compelling on their face, but ultimately lack substance.

Reply
Harry
7/20/2015 01:24:05 pm

I've never expressed a judgment for or against the Kensington Rune Stone because I do not consider myself sufficiently well grounded in the evidence to do so.

I do find it more fruitful to study the work of people who display a command, or at least reasonable understanding, of the subject matter they are addressing. That includes, but is not necessarily limited to, an understanding of the conventional point of view. Nevertheless, I am always delighted to read someone with an unorthodox take on the subject, provided that view is well reasoned and supported by a fair treatment of the evidence for and against. As a student of history, I sometimes disagree with the orthodox view on some issues of history, but I understand that I could be wrong.

I have also been in the position of reading works that I realized at the time or subsequently learned contained flawed logic, unfair representations of opposing viewpoints, misstated facts and misleading omissions.

On the other hand, if someone who does demonstrate expertise in a given field makes a good case that an unorthodox thesis does not stand up to scrutiny, I am likely to put more stock in the well-presented case of the expert than in the thesis he or she so effectively rebutted, and I am likely to refrain from spending my time reading that thesis. That does not guarantee that the expert is right, but it seems a reasonable way to budget my time.

Reply
N. Kent
6/19/2017 02:49:28 pm

Are you serious!? You are acting like a gullible, mushy brained simpleton.

Reply
Glenn
7/20/2015 05:29:58 am

It's also most likely available for purchase at a large chain bookstore (think B&N) in the magazine section. But not all will carry it in their history section. You can call and ask if they carry that one.

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Gordon
7/20/2015 12:45:42 pm

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle

Many people here are tripping over in the rush to debunk theories so that they can bask in their own intelligence and critical thinking.

However, true intellectuals court the seemingly ridiculous and absurd, because they know that the truth never lies in the realm of easy imagination.

I truly feel sad for those that dismiss notions of Atlantis, aliens, and celestial beings, because they have lost the spark of imagination that has driven and will always drive great discoveries, scientific and otherwise.

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Glenn
7/20/2015 01:03:44 pm

Thanks, well said Gordon....

An Einstein quote I like that may apply is..."the difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." And I would add that human imagination has none!

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Joe Scales
7/21/2015 03:39:55 am

Aristotle would have considered the ancient alien proponents beneath the Sophists. And I'm sure Einstein would have been thrilled to have found out that ancient alien theorists proposed his genius was the product of alien intervention. To throw their words out in defense of such pure speculation being sold to a world weaned on television is the ultimate insult.

Only Me
7/20/2015 03:18:46 pm

Strange, Gordon, how your comment is completely at odds with the quote from Aristotle you provided.

I have entertained the ideas behind Atlantis, aliens and what has been termed celestial beings, but, as Aristotle made clear in his quote, I can do so without accepting them.

There is nothing wrong with imagination, but for someone to claim Atlantis or aliens exist, they have to show me evidence that doesn't include "according to ancient texts" or "looks like, therefore is". Show me the satellite photos or oceanographic surveys that provide evidence of Atlantis. Show me the artifact that must be of alien origin because it contains elements not found on Earth or even within our solar system. Give me something.

No amount of imagination and passion will convince me a fringe theory is correct if there is no evidence for it. Otherwise, what fringe theorists are asking for is, by definition, faith.

Reply
Gordon
7/20/2015 04:32:29 pm

You are presuming which types of evidence would be available to support those theories.

Aliens might not be physical beings made out of chemical elements, rather they could exist solely on the electromagnetic spectrum, and interact with us in nonphysical ways that leave no conventional trace.

An ante-diluvian civilization (like most humans) would have primarily concentrated on their ancient coastlines, which in present day are miles off-shore and under water and mud, impenetrable except to specialized equipment that could be but hasn't been used, often times because it's presumed there will be nothing to find. I suspect we will find this a fruitful area of discovery in the future.

It's possible to read books by all these authors and find most of it bunk (I usually do) but still extract ideas and pieces of evidence worth incorporating into one's worldview. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Only Me
7/20/2015 04:55:02 pm

"Aliens might not be physical beings made out of chemical elements, rather they could exist solely on the electromagnetic spectrum, and interact with us in nonphysical ways that leave no conventional trace."

This is how ghost hunters describe the spirits they seek. How then, can you differentiate the aliens from the ghosts? For that matter, how could you differentiate this from someone's description of a spiritual experience?

The standard format for AAT is that ancient aliens are flesh and blood beings. If we're to include incorporeal, dimensional versions that communicate through telepathy, we once again run into the problem of trying to separate the alien from the supernatural. We also confront the problem of having failed to prove the physical and natural, let's default to the quasi-supernatural just to keep the theory viable.

Joe Scales
7/21/2015 03:34:36 am

"Aliens might not be physical beings made out of chemical elements, rather they could exist solely on the electromagnetic spectrum, and interact with us in nonphysical ways that leave no conventional trace."

The Emperor called Gordon. He wants his clothes back...

Historian
7/20/2015 02:01:27 pm

Flood myths are so widespread around the globe. The "reality" of a great flood is central to the histories of many cultures, not simply the Old Testement. This is not to say they all speak of some universal cataclysm at the same time in the past, and that this universal event must be a reality. But it is certainly understandable for guys like Hancock to utilize the possibility in ruminating about earlier- then-known civilizations.

In other words, silly to accuse him of trying to restore the reality of the flood. The simple fact is it's the most logical candidate for past cataclysm anyway, based on all those myths of a flood found throughout the world. It was just the logical direction for him to go. The story of a great flood is everywhere. What's to revive??

Reply
Glenn
7/20/2015 03:33:45 pm

Only you: Lost civilization conotates something was "lost", and that would be the lost evidence to prove their existence today. But there's plenty of scientific evidence to infer something was lost. In some cases I'm certain what was lost will/can never be known.

Reply
Only Me
7/20/2015 05:05:55 pm

I don't follow you. You said the evidence to prove the existence of a lost civilization is itself lost, therefore, missing. So what is this scientific evidence you mentioned that suggests something was lost in the first place?

Normandie Kent
10/1/2018 01:15:11 pm

Are you trying to tell us Floods didnt happen constantly throughout the world? Why wouldnt there be flood myth for each ancient people who witnessed them thruout their history ?

Reply
Glenn
7/20/2015 05:35:46 pm

Gordon covered some of it in his post...
"An ante-diluvian civilization (like most humans) would have primarily concentrated on their ancient coastlines, which in present day are miles off-shore and under water and mud, impenetrable except to specialized equipment that could be but hasn't been used, often times because it's presumed there will be nothing to find. I suspect we will find this a fruitful area of discovery in the future."

There plenty of geological evidence that a series of massive floods took place both in early historic and prehistoric human history, going back to the end of the last icecage. In some cases the data indicates localized cataclysm while other data shows more widespread events.

And Gordons correct that the most profound, groundbreaking(pardon the pun) archaeological discoveries will be made off shore, along the now submerged continental shelf around the world. So, much of the evidence is yet to be found and that which exists is meager, but all there is to go with, yet it's enough to tell us where missing a big part of the picture.

Reply
Only Me
7/20/2015 08:08:24 pm

Unfortunately, "An ante-diluvian civilization (like most humans) would have primarily concentrated on their ancient coastlines" is an assumption.

For example, Mesopotamia is considered the cradle of civilization, and that area focused primarily between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers; hence, Mesopotamia, "the land between rivers".

Here's where I'm going with this: I'm being pitied for not having the spark of imagination that, apparently, is a prerequisite for accepting fringe theories. However, when I ask for evidence that would lend credence to them (in a general sense), what I'm getting is, "Well, there isn't any because it's at the bottom of the ocean" or "See, the aliens are real, they're just not on the same frequency as you and I."

Again, no amount of imagination and passion will convince me a fringe theory is correct if there is no evidence for it.

Reply
Glenn
7/20/2015 11:56:15 pm

Here's an article from several years ago that includes evidence showing why the Mesopotamia model is slowly being replaced. Unfortunately, it's from Graham Hancock's web site so it must be bunk....

http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/BadrinaryanB1.php

Gordon
7/21/2015 04:09:31 am

Let's presume, for the sake of argument, incorporeal beings DO exist.

HOW would you prove it? Using materalistic science, you could not. A spark of imagination will allow you to consider the possibility even if it can not be objectively proven.

Shane Sullivan
7/21/2015 07:19:53 am

Seems like that article presents evidence of human habitation, but then makes the unfortunate leap of logic that habitation and tool use equal civilization. But that isn't what civilization is. We already know that humans were inhabiting six continents and making ingenious use of tools before the end of the last ice age, but that is not in any way at odds with the current model that the first civilization emerged in Mesopotamia circa 4000 BC.

Only Me
7/21/2015 07:57:11 am

Glenn:

Read the article. While interesting, the Mesopotamia model would only be replaced in terms of age.

It is taught in AP World History, both in Canada and the United States, that the six early civilizations as the foundation of human culture are: "Mesopotamia, Egypt, Indus, Shang (or Yellow River valley), Mesoamerica and Andean South America." Indus would include the site in the article you provided.

So no, the article isn't bunk. How it's presented and used...that can be bunk. And that goes back to one of my original points concerning fringe theorists.

Gordon:

If one must use increasingly ad hoc reasoning to support a theory, we eventually arrive at the conclusion you just mentioned. Once again, that goes back to one of my original points. If the goalposts have to be moved in such a way as to render the theory practically unfalsifiable, then it had no grounds from the beginning.

David Bradbury
7/22/2015 01:47:04 am

"An ante-diluvian civilization (like most humans) would have primarily concentrated on their ancient coastlines, which in present day are miles off-shore and under water and mud, impenetrable except to specialized equipment that could be but hasn't been used, often times because it's presumed there will be nothing to find. I suspect we will find this a fruitful area of discovery in the future."

The catch with that argument is that, for example in the Black Sea and the North Sea, settlement evidence already has been found miles offshore- but its character has not been different from what would be expected. All that would be needed to break the paradigm would be a single anomalous site spotted by remote sensing (sonar or radar, for example).

Reply
tomh
7/21/2015 05:27:04 pm

Glenn wrote:
" I wouldn't have disdain for dowsing just because I can't explain it to the standard of the scientific method."

Seriously, dowsing? If you're trying to establish credibility it's probably better not reference an age-old scam that pretends a random stick can point to water hundreds of feet below the surface. On the other hand, dowsing is on a par with ancient aliens and the Loch Ness monster, I'll give you that.

Reply
Jesse Glass link
7/27/2015 02:55:43 am

I live in Japan where we get a steady drip of this kind of stuff through the History Channel--searching for Giants, finding the Lost Ark and then not finding it, and the ever-ridiculous Ancient Astronauts. I'm glad to see that someone is taking this nonsense head-on and showing what these writers are really up to. My first brush with this stuff came via Charles Fort who delighted in presenting odd news and felt that he was constructing a philosophy of sorts. Then Barry Fell arrived with his glossy America B.C. and suddenly everybody ancient was revealing their GPS coordinates in New England via plow marks on fieldstones and "glyphs" in old root cellars. Sadly, ignorance is a cut artery in the body politic and with 24/7 bombardments of Densa-Rays coming from every new appliance--hand-held and other-- the future does not look very bright. Good luck and keep up the good fight! Jesse

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      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
        • Robert Temple
        • Giorgio Tsoukalos
        • David Childress
      • Blunders in the Sky
      • The Case of the False Quotes
      • Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud
      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
      • Native American Discovery of Europe
      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
      • Lovecraft in Bergier
      • Lovecraft and Scientology
    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
      • Aliens and Anal Probes
      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
    • The Antediluvian Pyramid Myth
    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Eridu Genesis
          • Atrahasis Epic
          • Epic of Gilgamesh
          • Kutha Creation Legend
          • Babylonian Creation Myth
          • Descent of Ishtar
          • Resurrection of Marduk
          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Atlantis as Biblical History
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Atlantis and Nimrod
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and Hanno's Periplus
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
          • Amazing New Light (Hoax)
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • History of Paleontology
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • America Known to the Ancients
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Remarkable Discoveries Within the Sphinx (Hoax)
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • The Shaver Mystery >
          • Lovecraft and the Deros
          • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • CIA Search for the Ark of the Covenant
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • The Fall of the Sky
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Poltergeist UFOs
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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