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An Interview with Dr. Janet Six on the Mexican Obsidian Spear Point Found in Hawaii

3/11/2014

61 Comments

 
A green-gold obsidian spear point found in the volcanic Haleakala Crater by Brian Axtell and Trevor Carter in 2009 became controversial last month when the H2 series America Unearthed announced the results of tests conducted by University of Hawaii anthropologist and lithics expert Peter R. Mills confirming that it was made of obsidian from Pachuca in Mexico before the show then claimed that the National Park Service was working to suppress Scott Wolter’s investigation of the spear point. Wolter’s key contact during his investigation was Dr. Janet Six, a University of Hawaii archaeologist who had worked with the spear point after Axtell and Carter showed it to her several years ago.
In order to learn more about the spear point, I arranged to speak with Dr. Six. Due to our conflicting schedules and the five hour time difference between my home in Albany and her office on Maui, it took a while to find a mutually convenient time. I spoke with Dr. Six last night by phone, and she summed up her views on the spear point in three words: “We don’t know.”

Six is extremely personable and was happy to share as much information as she had about the spear point, what scholars know about it, and what has yet to be determined. I began by asking Six the $64 question: Is the spear point a genuine pre-Contact Mesoamerican artifact?

“I’m not a lithics person or a Mayanist,” Six told me. “I showed it to Peter Mills [the lithics expert at UH], and it’s a little thick on one side so he said it could have been made for the tourist trade. It’s a little rough on one side. No one’s going to say anything definitive because we have to run more tests.”

Mills told Six that a genuine Mayan spearhead would typically feature more carefully knapping and a finer finish, leading him to suggest that it was most likely a modern imitation. However, he could not render a fuller opinion without obsidian hydration testing to rule in or out a modern date. It was possible, for example, that it was an unfinished Mayan spear point that had been discarded and then transported to Hawaii. Six notes that the spear point has a very carefully serrated edge. “It’s not just like a crude-knapped tool,” she said. This, in turn, implies that regardless of when it was made, it was carefully produced.

Six said that while the spear head was in her possession over the past few years (she used it as a teaching aid in her classes), she showed it to several experts, including experts in American archaeology. She told me that there was no consensus among the scholars who have viewed the spear head as to whether it is actually a Mesoamerican (most likely Mayan) artifact, and if so if it had been made before the Contact Period. She said that one Ph.D. dismissed it as having been knapped from a piece of discarded colonial glass, which is obviously incorrect as it is made of obsidian. Some felt it could be a genuine Mayan piece, while others felt it was a modern imitation.

I asked whether the location in the Haleakala Crater where the two men found the spearhead provides any clues to when and how the spearhead came to Hawaii. “It was found inside the main vent, the main caldera, which is about the size of Manhattan,” Six said. She informed me that there is no additional evidence from the location since Axtell and Carter did not document any other features of the area where they found the site, and neither Six nor anyone else has visited the area to look for the spot where it had been unearthed. She told me, however, that her conversation with the two men revealed details about the burial of the spearhead that convinced her that they did not plant it. This involved the very specific way obsidian becomes embedded in the surrounding soil.

But even these details did not provide any indication of how long the spearhead had been in the Haleakala Crater. She finds it interesting that the artifact seems to have been carefully placed in an obscure spot that requires somewhat difficult climbing to reach. It is not on the normal path, and it requires climbing skills to get to. “People throw things into the crater all the time,” she said, but the location of the artifact high up on the crater wall implies that it had been placed there for a reason rather than simply tossed into the volcano. “Someone went through a lot of trouble to put it there.”

It was found in an area on the side of the Haleakala Crater that was not impacted by the volcanic eruption of the early eighteenth century, meaning that there is no geological evidence to place either a terminus post quem or a terminus ante quem on the deposition of the spear point.

Six told me that the part of the crater wall where it was found is an area where there are important Hawaiian burial caves, and this was one reason to think that the spear point could have been placed there by Native Hawaiians. “Hawaiians don’t mark their burials,” she said, because “if someone could access your burial cave they could take your grave goods and your power.” She suggests that an exotic and reflective item from a foreign land might have been used as grave goods and percolated out or been blasted out of the ground in more recent times.

However, even this potential explanation—which remains speculative until the area can be surveyed for burial locations—does not preclude a post-Contact deposit. “It could have come on a whaler,” she said, during the early Contact Period, brought by a ship that had passed through Mexico and then used in a nineteenth-century grave.

Six said that an obsidian hydration test could have helped narrow possibilities, but even this would not indicate the date of deposit since an older artifact could always be brought to Hawaii at a later date. Instead, the test could have indicated whether the object was a modern tourist object and brought to Hawaii during the Harmonic Convergence of 1987 or later. America Unearthed planned to pay for the expensive test, but the National Park Service took possession of the spear point before the test was scheduled to be conducted.

Six has not seen the episode of America Unearthed and dismissed the show’s implication of a National Park Service conspiracy aimed at suppressing the work of Scott Wolter as unfounded. However, Six was also extremely critical of the way the NPS handled the spear point. Six had contacted the Park Service herself before America Unearthed but no one expressed interest in the spearhead until the America Unearthed contacted the Park Service to secure permits to film inside Haleakala National Park. Only with the threat of national publicity for the NPS’s non-interest in an illegally-removed artifact did the NPS take the stone from Axtell and Carter while the two men were meeting with Park Service officials at a local Starbucks in a meeting arranged by America Unearthed producers. After the seizure, Six contacted the NPS, who told her they were investigating whether the men tried to profit from transport, sale, and display of an illegally obtained artifact. Six said that the Park Service declined an offer from America Unearthed to appear on the show to discuss the artifact and explain on camera why archaeological material should never be removed from national parks.

The National Park Service declined to comment, pointing instead to a press release in which they said that the spear point is part of an ongoing but unspecified investigation.

Six said that as a scientist she can’t speculate about whether the spearhead is ancient or modern, or when it was brought to Hawaii. However, she takes a very expansive view of Hawaiian (and Polynesian in general) trans-Pacific contact with the Americas. She has a well-developed story she related at length about Polynesian trans-oceanic contact spanning across thousands of years. For example, she sees as evidence that the Hawaiians had contact with “other races” somewhat unsecure references in the Hawaiian creation myth, the Kumulipo, to the first humans, born from a woman’s brain and

     …the ruddy tint by which they were known
     Showed the fine reddish hair at puberty [?]
     Showed on the chin a reddish beard
          (9.651-3, trans. Martha Warren Beckwith)

She also accepts as well-established the evidence for a Polynesian presence among the Chumash of California, as well as Polynesian contact with both Peru in Chile. She places great weight on Hawaiian oral traditions of a misty overseas land, which some modern Hawaiians today interpret as the Americas. As a result, she feels that Mesoamerica must also have had contact with Polynesia, and she believes that the colossal heads of Olmec are evidence of this. “The Olmec heads are really interesting,” she said. “They have distinctly flat noses and lips, and they were originally interpreted as African. However, they have epicanthic eye folds that are uniquely Asian, and the Polynesians come originally from Taiwan.”

The Olmec heads date to c. 1500-900 BCE, long before the Polynesians reached Hawaii (c. 500-1200 CE) or Easter Island (c. 700-1100 CE), had alleged contact with the Chumash (c. 700 CE), and or reached Peru and Chile (c. 500-700 CE). Experts in Mesoamerican archaeology point to the fact that the faces depicted on the Olmec heads closely resemble the native population still living in the same area today as evidence that the heads depicted native Olmec rulers, whose ancient ancestors were, of course, from Ice Age Asia. The native people of the tropical lowlands of Mesoamerica have epicanthic eye folds, which biological anthropologists believe is an adaptation to the tropical climate.

Six also believes that recent studies that linked the Mexican bottle gourd, the calabash, to Asia support the hypothesis that the Polynesians brought it to America. The most recent study, from February of this year, instead linked the American gourd to African species and suggested that the gourd floated across the Atlantic. Earlier studies suggested that the Paleoindians had carried them from Asia. At any rate, the gourds have been in use in the Americas since at least 6000 BCE, if not earlier, which far predates the emergence of Polynesian culture from the Austronesian speakers who left Taiwan between 3000 and 1000 BCE.

It remains possible that the early Polynesians who colonized the western Pacific between 1400 and 700 BCE could have sailed to Mesoamerica, but if they did they left no trace across the eastern Pacific islands during the Olmec period in Mexico or earlier.
61 Comments
Matt Mc
3/11/2014 04:36:25 am

Thanks Jason, very interesting interview.

While I pretty much expected the answers about the spearhead to be about what she said it was interesting to learn about her thoughts Hawaiian contact with our peoples and cultures.

Thanks for taking the time to address this issue in more detail.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/11/2014 06:21:58 am

EXCELLENT information, thoughtfully gathered and shared … Thank you ...

Reply
Varika
3/11/2014 07:27:00 am

My mother pointed out, when I was talking to her about this, that, assuming it were a genuine pre-Columbian artifact, Polynesians wouldn't have had to get the spear point directly from Mesoamerica. Trade isn't always a direct one-to-one transaction, particularly with items that are beautiful and/or unusual--and this spear point may have been precisely that, outside of Mesoamerica. A single out-of-place artifact doesn't actually mean contact OR a hoax.

I'm still going with Occam's Razor, though, that the Harmonic Convergence meeting thingee explains everything pretty much perfectly. Having been a New Age wackadoo in my teens, even the odd placement of it isn't really a mystery to me: I placed a few little trinkets (almost always polished stones) to "help even the energy flows" myself.

Reply
Clint Knapp
3/11/2014 07:59:14 am

A good read and interesting interview. It's nice to have a bit more back story to the whole situation. I find it curious that the overall description of the spearhead she lays out makes a strong case for it being an amateur attempt, though obviously whether or not it's a genuine piece- perhaps made as practice- or a tourist trinket is still up in the air.

I'm not quite sold on the grave goods hypothesis yet, if only because Dr. Six herself seems to have a particular lean toward widespread Polynesian travel and anything that will support it- evidenced by the anachronistic Olmec head explanation- but perhaps someone will fund a proper expedition to the find site and we'll see how well the idea holds up.

I can still see the Harmonic Convergence hippies as a rather likely explanation for now. If Axtell and Carter could hike to the spot, there's no reason to believe a hippie couldn't as well. A high location on a large natural feature of sacred significance is perfectly coherent with the usual New Age energy-attuning theme. Perhaps some more information can be dug up regarding the Convergence, its participants, and any organized activities/ceremonies that might have involved the volcano itself?

In all, an insightful article. I've enjoyed watching this story play out, and this whole ordeal highlights well a missed opportunity by AU to actually contribute something worthwhile. It's a shame they went with promoting their Hero's Journey fiction instead.

Reply
RLewis
3/11/2014 08:05:29 am

This is a wild thought, but is there any possibility this is an example of geocaching?

Reply
Matt Mc
3/11/2014 08:18:40 am

I would say its plausible as any of the other theories. I still think the Harmonic Convergence meeting seems extremely plausible. Geocaching does provide a reasonable explanation to the location it was found in.

Reply
Uncle Ron
3/11/2014 10:51:32 am

Or mess-with-their-head caching. When I was a Cub Scout (in the early Pleistocene) my dad and I used a grinder to shape an "Indian tomahawk" out of a fortuitously shaped piece of rock we found in a field. Years later I skipped that stone out across the Susquehanna river near Liverpool, Pa. One of these summers, when the river is particularly low, someone is going to find that "primitive stone axe head"...

Reply
Shane Sullivan
3/11/2014 11:30:37 am

Oh, that would just make my day. I sincerely hope it is.

Of course, geocaches traditionally consist of little pieces of gladware full of nicknacks or whatever, so unless it fell out of the box or something, that would make it difficult for Axtell and Carter to believe the spear point was a genuine find.

Reply
The Other J.
3/11/2014 06:45:52 pm

Love this.

Now I hope people start geocaching home-made Olmec heads.

Reply
Gunn
3/11/2014 08:22:17 am

Very interesting "temporary epilogue" to this still-unfolding drama, and very nicely relayed in detail.

I'm still a bit baffled about the age-testing being proposed. I was under the impression, after doing some research a few days ago, that hydration testing reflected "age" since formation of the obsidian. But this is not the case? It sounds as though this carbon-dating method must be interrupted upon knapping, if determining whether an item is recently knapped or not can be made. So then, can "knapping age" of obsidian be determined in most cases, going back hundreds and thousands of years...such as anything once living?

It seems peculiar to me that obsidian could be age-tested, but not rock such as granite--as far as disrupting the previous aging process to determine the age of a carving, for instance. Something to do with a difference in the material itself, I guess. Not sure.

Reply
Re. Phil Gotsch
3/11/2014 08:35:19 am

Microscopic examination of a thin section of an obsidian artifact can yield a relative date for the "knapping" since a freshly exposed face on a piece of obsidian will react with ambient environment at a fairly measurable rate … It's not as refined and accurate as a C-14 date but it gives one good approximation of age ...

Reply
Gunn
3/11/2014 09:37:10 am

Thanks Rev. Phil. Would this involve comparing originally formed obsidian with newly knapped obsidian, in the same specimen? Also, if you don't mind, are you referring to a "cross-section" of the thin section to make this comparison between the old and new? Thanks again, if you can help with this.

Also, sorry about the crudeness in the earlier thread-line. As an excuse, I used to be a corrections officer, and see, one of my specialties was breaking up fights; I came to understand over time that many, many fights erupted over someone "dippin'," which is to say getting themselves involved in a conversation not concerning themselves. This is a form of "dissing," of course, but in an environment where even an accidental prolonged stare could easily provoke a wolf or gorilla-like attack. Perhaps I'm a little sensitive to people purposely dippin'...here, usually out of rudeness and a desire to just be negative in some way. I may be occasionally appear to be over-jealous in protecting my "personal" communications, if you will. Anyway, that's what dippin' is, and it doesn't even have to be something negative. But when it is, then is becomes a matter of someone just not minding their own business, and looking for trouble.

So, maybe there's more to that spear point than meets the eye!

spookyparadigm
3/11/2014 10:24:32 am

Yes, it would give the date since a particular edge was last exposed (setting the hydration clock to zero, if you will).

The problem is, this method requires a year or so of probes stuck into the soil near where the sample came from, to calibrate hydration rates. And I'm not a lithicist, but that has to be _really_ near, it can't be in the same valley and work. This problem came up with the attempt 20 years ago to date all the households in the Maya city of Copan. The resulting data gave a very parabolic shape with a height centuries after the written records, architecture, and pottery sequence would otherwise suggest. Geoffrey Braswell critiqued these findings, noting that insufficiently close calibration data had been used for the entire project, when numerous probes should have been used to calibrate smaller areas. He interpreted the parabola as, IIRC, statistical noise as a result. While some scholars still support this research (it would have led to a very interesting conclusion, that the Maya collapse was a political, not a demographic collapse, something found in a few spots on the fringes of the Maya world such as Belize, but in most cases it was demographic), it has generally not been accepted (though not strongly denounced either).

So if they can't locate the find site to an area smaller than the size of Manhattan, I don't know if hydration will work.

Now, what the test might tell you is not a solid date, but it might be used to determine if we're talking about something a couple of decades old, vs. centuries. But I don't work with that kind of analysis, and without doing some research, I couldn't say off the top of my head if one could easily do that without probe calibration.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/11/2014 10:32:16 am

A suface hydration date of an obsidian artifact yields always only a "relative" date, not an "absolute" date ...

spookyparadigm
3/11/2014 10:36:42 am

Do you mean a surface find?

Or do you mean that obsidian hydration rinds haven't been used in absolute dating? Because they have, but it is a problematic technique and I suspect many archaeologists would not accept conclusions based solely on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian_hydration_dating

Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/11/2014 10:47:50 am

Absolute dating methods, such as C-14 and U-Pb, rely upon a known rate of a process that is NOT influenced by environment or environmental changes …

Relative dating methods are VERY useful in giving an APPROXIMATE date, so they have great value … But not uncommonly an investigator will try to use more than one sample from a site and make use of more than one dating method whenever possible ...

spookyparadigm
3/11/2014 10:56:04 am

Those radiometric techniques are absolute techniques, but as the article I linked to (and the wiki linked to) both discuss, obsidian hydration has also been used as an absolute technique. For some others following this discussion, an absolute technique gives you a date range, while a relative technique gives you "is this older or younger than that". Relative techniques can be correlated with other information, most typically in archaeology the use of seriation (based on style, how you know how old a car is by whether it has tail fins or rounded corners), a relative technique that is tied into absolute dating info (in this case, documentary evidence such as photographs).

Obsidian hydration can also be used in this manner, but as noted above, because it is highly dependent on local conditions, it is not very reliable. In this, it isn't as different from C14 as one might suggest, as that also has to be recalibrated depending on when in the c14 curve you're talking. While yes, as a radiometric technique, the half-life of C14 is hard and fast, the ratio of C12 to C14 in the atmosphere has changed, hence why there are calibrated and uncalibrated C14 dates.

Again, in this case, they'll probably be able to determine if the object was recently knapped or knapped several centuries ago, maybe. But hydration has been used for more detailed work, though there is debate, again as noted above, as to whether or not that is wise.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/11/2014 11:13:22 am

A measurement of the rate of surface hydration can be "calibrated" only crudely, since it is difficult to know for certain EXACTLY what the soil and moisture and weather conditions have been over a long period of time …

So an investigator, again, whenever possible will date multiple samples from a given site and use more than one method …

But indeed, greater or lesser observed hydration of a surface of an obsidian tool yields a good IDEA of "age," but can never be relied upon to give a PRECISE date ...

spookyparadigm
3/11/2014 03:46:02 pm

As I said, it's a probematic method for absolute dating. But it is a method people have used for absolute dating, regardless of how problematic.

Geoff Braswell, author of that article, has gotten better success with obsidian hydration, through more control over ambient environment (in his work with Kaminaljuyu), and he's an obsidian expert when I'm not. But I would be skeptical of something based purely on that, and I expect that would be the case for most archaeologists.

spookyparadigm
3/11/2014 10:38:41 am

Here's the article I refer to, btw, for the issues regarding calibration

http://www.academicroom.com/article/obsidian-hydration-dating-coner-phase-and-revisionist-chronology-copan-honduras

Reply
Uncle Ron
3/11/2014 02:58:40 pm

Spooky-
Even a cursory look at the article reveals that there are a myriad of variables which affect the hydration rate and that extensive data must be collected for calibration. The article concludes that obsidian hydration dating is "in it's infancy". I don't think it will answer the question at hand any time soon.

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spookyparadigm
3/11/2014 03:50:11 pm

It would probably answer whether the thing has been knapped in the last couple of decades. Still wouldn't be evidence against a hoax (as an ancient object could have been placed there, or coughed up with a story), but it would be an obvious thing to look at along with sourcing, which has already been done.

The model here would be the Piltdown Man and fluorine dating, another relative technique that showed minimal fluorine absorption on one part of the skull, while the other bit had a lot more fluorine, meaning they could not have come from the same hominin buried in the same site. Only then did people notice the file marks ...

Tara Jordan link
3/11/2014 11:12:22 am

I don't want to be unnecessarily rude but Dr Six would do great alongside Jonathan Young on the Ancient Aliens program."Dr Six believes,she sees as evidence,She accepts..."based on what?.I am probably hardcore but unlike Dr Six,I need more than "oral traditions" to make up my mind.She is constructing an entire beliefs system based on assertions,interpretations & speculations.She has the right to do so,but she cannot call it science.

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Only Me
3/11/2014 11:17:44 am

So, what it boils down to, is determining whether the spearhead is a modern construction. Relative date or absolute, either one would close the door on the question. If it's modern, then the Harmonic Convergence would be the most likely explanation of how it came to be in the park.

If it's far older, then I think Scott would benefit from a revisit. I think it would be exciting to know that the spearhead isn't an anomaly, but the first evidence in a possible Polynesian-Mesoamerican connection that was unknown until now.

Reply
spookyparadigm
3/11/2014 03:57:17 pm

Even if it is old, that wouldn't be evidence of contact, by itself. It could have been planted. It could have been dropped at the Convergence. Its possible it got there in some other fashion though that does stretch probabilities.

If it were old, for me it would be an interesting find that could be a hoax or a mistake, or could be evidence of contact. In which case, you need more evidence of contact, and preferably not stuff found this way. The Spiro Scraper, also Pachuca, was uncovered inside a pre-Columbian mound in North America, though in a context that had just undergone looting. That History won't discuss this, a find actually tested by professional archaeologists, says a good deal about what the real point of these narratives is.

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Only Me
3/11/2014 04:46:32 pm

Agreed. More evidence is needed, to establish whether the spearhead is a one-time find. If more evidence is found, I count it as a win for everybody, since we'll be adding to our understanding and knowledge of history. If this is the only artifact found, even if proven to be real, the Polynesian-Mesoamerican contact hypothesis will have to be classified as "possible...but unproven".

Gunn
3/11/2014 02:04:54 pm

I appreciate all the input and links about obsidian age-testing.

I wonder if a large shard of obsidian protruding out of the ground in nature can be tested in soil, at soil level, and above ground just from the ambient atmosphere? Is soil needed?

And if not, why can't this method be applied to other "rock types" besides obsidian...or can it be...again, such as with carvings in granite? (Notice I didn't say anything about any other specific rock "carving" types. Peace, yes, keeping it real.)

Reply
PNO TECH
3/12/2014 06:25:57 am

Gunn,
IF I correctly understood the reading on obsidian hydration testing I did Sunday, such technique is only usefull on a low-porosity, highly uniform substance. Rocks are usually made up of many,many tiny pieces 'glued' together which allows multiple paths for water migration. Think: obsidian=Saran wrap/rock=paper towel.
Scot

Reply
Gunn
3/12/2014 07:38:06 am

PNO TECH, I guess I'm having some trouble understanding how something more dense, or less permeable, can help effect age testing, while greater porosity hinders the process. I guess it's difficult to think of something as hard as obsidian as having any porosity at all. Also, it seems like lower porosity would make age-testing more difficult because of less ambient "impact" than on a softer stone. Can you or someone else help clear this up?

Is volcanic glass considered stone, even? I need to research how much quartzite it has, I guess, if any. Obsidian must be like agate, I guess, or about the same thing? Anyway, this blog site is good for learning, as it helps promote further researching.

I need to find out the latest technology for this new petrarchaelogy, or whatever it is. What latest surprises in new technology does it entail, if any? In other words, if the surfaces of obsidian can help determine age of knapping, can't this sort of technology also be used to help determine age-disturbances in ordinary glacial rock types, broken up and scattered over landscapes by glacial movements? I honestly don't know the answer, but I'll try to find out.

Maybe sophisticated optics can be used in conjunction with limited hydration testing, or something like that. I guess tombstone testing over hundreds of years might help, where actual dates could help affirm findings. I wonder if flintstone, a common material for arrowheads and spear points, can be flintstone hydration tested to compliment regular carbon-dating? In the future?

Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/12/2014 10:21:57 am

"Obsidian" is a volcanic glass, i.e., a lava that cooled so RAPIDLY that no individual minerals had any time to crystallize out …

The exact composition of any particular "obsidian" will depend upon the exact composition of the lava from which it hardened … But, yes, a significant component of any lava will be "quartz" -- but NEVER "quartzite," which is a metamorphosed sandstone ...

Only Me
3/12/2014 12:27:31 pm

Gunn, here's something to consider about the porosity issue.

Remember the stone with the bull carving shown in the episode "A Deadly Sacrifice"? When Scott went with its discoverers to the river where it was found, they pointed out that it had been in the river for an unknown period of time. Scott, IIRC, said that trying to date the age of the stone would be next to impossible, since the river current would have produced more erosion, thus premature "aging", than if it had been on land.

In this case, a softer more porous stone will be more prone to water damage than a harder material. If this water has corrosive elements within it, the damage would be more severe. I think this explains why harder materials, like granite and obsidian, develop a stained appearance or patina due to age and climatic conditions, whereas softer materials exhibit signs of erosion.

Gunn
3/12/2014 01:04:26 pm

Thanks. I'm trying to understand why dense material is better for hydration testing than porous material. I'm also trying to figure out if hydration testing can be applied to say, graywackle, a dark coarse sandstone, I think, or even to just common granite boulders, for instance, where the original glacial surface is disturbed much later.

What exactly is meant by chemical testing, and is that hydration testing...kind of the same thing? More research is in order, I guess.

Later: I found these. The first one goes into extreme scientific detail about testing obsidian; very interesting. The other links pretty well answer my other questions.

http://archserve.id.ucsb.edu/courses/anth/fagan/anth3/Courseware/Chronology/10_Obsidian_Hydration.html

http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/ks3/gsl/education/resources/rockcycle/page3564.html

http://www.agriinfo.in/?page=topic&superid=4&topicid=249

Gunn
3/12/2014 01:11:44 pm

Only Me, I didn't see your posting until after I posted the comments I was working on, just above. Thanks for the input; the links make it much easier to understand, but take a while to read.

Gunn
3/12/2014 01:35:27 pm

So then, after researching obsidian age-testing, it becomes more apparent that--possibly--more can be ascertained about the Maui spearhead by zooming in on the area the relic was found. Perhaps, then, it was not subjected to volcanic outbursts which would have covered it over. Or perhaps it was "shaken" to a point of visibility, but not completely covered over.

I'm guessing that the infamous "stoners"--for lack of a better definition-- know "about" where it was found by themselves, if not even rather precisely. Most people would kind of remember the spot, or at least the general spot, I think.

From what I just researched about hydration testing of obsidian, what is needed is a pretty well established location of known temperatures and relative humidity.

It seems like these two casual gentlemen might be able to point to a well estimated location so well estimated factors could be established, and then used for subsequent analysis. The "general surface area" it was found in may allow for time probes if these two factors are fairly consistent in the area, who knows?

Maybe this will be done to help determine when it may have been knapped.

The Chief link
3/12/2014 01:44:14 pm

My head hurts. I agree with Varika. harmonic whatsis thingee thanks again Jason, I'm enjoying this more and more. (no more ufos please)

Reply
J.A.D
3/13/2014 04:47:07 am

i'd say its at 50/50 odds
even though it may be
hundreds of years old
or more. neat thread!!!

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Mark E. gave us a cool link earlier!!! (J.A.D)
3/13/2014 05:17:22 am

http://www.worldmuseumofman.org/display.php?item=1347

(Mark E. found this link! its in the long 190+ postings thread)
(i also checked out item no. 775 on the Mayan spearhead page)

Inventory #: 1347
Type: Spearhead
Material: Green Gold Sheen Obsidian
Period: Late Pre-Classic to
Terminal Classic Period: 250 BC - 900 AD
Provenance: Central America
Measurements: 13.2 cm long

Identical in typology to collection item #775 but in green gold sheen obsidian.

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Gunn
3/13/2014 05:50:46 am

Very wonderful specimen, but the base is vastly different from the Hawaii specimen.

J.A.D
3/13/2014 06:20:08 am

Gunn... the two MAYAN spearpoints in the link Mark E. gave us,

that the museum numbered 775 and 1347 have a very obvious base

a sinew or a vine or a twine or a leather piece of string can secure.

if it is supposed to be a working object used on say a hunt, clearly

the trackers want it to come off in the animal so more blood will flow.

if one does a notch in a long stick ^ uses a birch glue like the very

had to process one the Native Americans had, you solve a problem.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/defy-stereotypes.html The

Neandertals of Europe could make this white birch resin or glue, too.

Odds are, if its pragmatic or practical, it was glued on a long pole...

Gunn link
3/13/2014 05:47:51 am

But, of course any scientific hydration testing wouldn't mean as much if the aging of the artifact happened somewhere else, such as in Mexico. And then, too, aging since knapping may have happened both in Mexico, and in Hawaii, if it is genuine. It seems like hydration testing on location may not do much good, ultimately, unless it shows that it was freshly knapped, which would answer most questions here.

We know that it was taken from Mexico, originally, to the faraway Pacific island...either in modern times, or in ages past...and of course someone may have taken a chunk of raw obsidian to the island and knapped the spearhead from that, in which case a hydration test could be more meaningful, if tied to the island. But any ensuing implications cannot be positively answered, only speculated about, because we cannot know who brought it to the island, either aged or freshly knapped. Somebody very well may have brought it during that Generation X crisis, or whatever it was. If the knapping is shown to be quite aged, even that could be meaningful, especially since the item appears to be both unique and made of fairly valuable material.

J.A.D, I think it may be genuine, but displaced. But it could just as well be freshly knapped. Either way, the knapper seems to have used a very unique, specific design...unless the center base portion was redone after breaking off. 50/50 sounds about right, for being aged or not, and 50/50 for how it got here, by either modern or long-ago means. I don't figure for a purposeful hoax, because of the apparent value of the item, though of course it is always possible.

BTW,I still haven't seen a photo of a spearhead exactly like the Hawaii specimen. The center base is knapped differently, unless a larger portion was broken off and then someone "smoothed" that broken off portion. So then, so far as I've seen from hundreds and thousands of photos, this is a very unique spear point. Who knows where it can from? We can know, possibly, if it is knapped freshly, or ages ago, but even that outcome would end up offering only speculation, unless one knew precisely where it had aged after being knapped. Of course, a finding of being freshly knapped would answer most of our questions. If the knapping is "very old," then valid questions will remain.

Reply
Seeker
3/14/2014 05:19:41 pm

Great interview, Jason, and great comments and links. I've also been looking at tons of examples and comparing them to the spear point in question. It has such a different base, lack of symmetry and thickness than so many other spear points. Overall, there's a crudeness to it--but I'm not sure if that argues for or against its authenticity.

Reply
william smith
3/16/2014 04:05:52 am

It is likely the ancient Condor carried the spear point from South America to Hawaii. These birds of prey fed on large animals and were fond of dead ones. They traveled long distances and had wing spans of 25 ft. Did anyone smell the stone to see if it dropped a rock in Hawaii?

Reply
Only Me
3/16/2014 11:49:41 am

Why am I reminded of the swallow and the coconut scenario from Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/16/2014 12:07:24 pm

"It could grasp it by the husk … "

william smith
3/16/2014 05:12:26 am

The following link has a map showing the migration of the Hawaii Frigate bird (Condor species) (http://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/condor/v088n03/p0304-p0317.pdf) I think this is the likely means of transportation of the arrow head from Mexico to Hawaii. But then I am not the expert like the History Chanel players. It would be good if the parks department of Hawaii sent the arrow head back to Mexico.

Reply
RLewis
3/17/2014 04:05:28 am

You think a bird carried a dead animal thousands of miles? Seems highly unlikely.

Reply
william smith
3/17/2014 02:20:04 pm

RLewis - Many sea birds can consume over 3 lbs. of meat and go for weeks without eating. The ancient Condors had larger capacities than the few that remain today. The Frigate bird and other sea birds of Hawaii nest on the high volcanic rocks. They are known to eat shells for calcium. If you read the article I posted earlier (http://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/condor/v088n03/p0304-p0317.pdf), The ancient sailors released frigate birds when they wanted to find land because of their ability to fly toward land. To answer your question. It is unlikely they carried a complete animal, however the arrowhead in a piece of that animal is very probable. The leading demise of the California Condor is due to lead shot consumed by the bird when he eats dead prey left by modern man hunting with lead shot.

RLewis
3/18/2014 01:58:32 am

Sorry, still not buying it.
The fact the bird is large and eats a lot is irrelevant.
The arrowhead was not calcium. I understand that many birds eat stones for various reasons, but I would balk at the idea that they would eat something as large as the arrowhead in question (at least it looks pretty large to me). Mistakenly eating buckshot seems to me quite different from eating a relatively large arrowhead.
I also don't believe it's plausible that the bird carried the partial dead animal over 3,000 miles (it would have to be a sizable piece of meat to still have the arrowhead lodged inside it).. That journey had to take a lot of energy even without carrying extra dead weight.

william smith
3/18/2014 07:03:31 am

R Lewis - I understand your position about the capability of birds being able to carry an arrow head from Mexico to Hawaii, however it is a theory. Many birds have the capacity to do this. If you look at the present day species in Hawaii as well as those in South America you will find many that may have made the journey with the arrow head. To decrease the number to the most likely you will find the Frigate bird has the best chance, however you can not omit the Pelican species and even the Canadian Geese. The number decreases even more when you look at the area where the arrow head was found and consider the nesting habits of this area. I have personally witnessed the American white pelican catch lake suckers over 10 lbs. in their bill in the spring when the fish are spawning in small streams. I have also caught northern pike with stones as large as the arrow head in their stomach. This theory is hard to prove, however should be considered before we accept Scott Wolter and the H2 channel as truth to the evolution of man.

Reply
RLewis
3/18/2014 09:34:30 am

I generally take exception to the phrase "this is the likely means of transportation of the arrow head from Mexico to Hawaii".. I don't think you have made a good case for "likely". You've switched from ancient Condors (which may have been more scavenger than birds of prey) to Frigates (I question the strength of their talons) to the northern pike.
You certainly have a right to your theories. But I even think the highly questionable Polynesian explanation seems more plausible (and it's vapor thin). Just my opinion.

Reply
william smith
3/18/2014 09:57:22 am

R Lewis - My point is their are other theories to be considered. If we do not challenge the first produced by the History Chanel we can assume the world is flat. I also feel the Newport Tower in R.I. is a smoke house for processing cod fish and the New Hampshire mystery stone is a lodestone from a compass.

mr mr
7/8/2014 04:57:52 am

I've travelled to Hawaii several times. I've placed numerous spearpoints in vents. Keep looking, you'll find more.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
8/17/2014 05:03:10 pm

You have an interesting hobby ...

Reply
.
8/17/2014 04:49:34 pm

In light of the carved rock with magnetic properties found in
New Mexico, and its logo or design that has has the look of
being more like the Astrological sign Cancer than anything
YIN/YANG and Eastern, its still sounding too 20th Century...

The obsidian arrowhead found in Hawaii due to its colored
flecs suggests an origin point in Mexico even though it has
nothing in its design that says loosely when was carved. it
seems to be more practical than ornamental, and looks like
someone could have hunted game with it and used a birch
bark resin glue to attach it to wood. if i go by the shape of
the human hand, it could have been knapped at any time
in the last half million years. our hands were fully evolved
as we were very Homo Erectus some million years ago. The
more logical assumption is that it was knapped at a loose
point after the end of the last Ice Age. Some people think
it is more recent. i am not a total expert on the age for the
surface, or how one is flaking or knapping obsidian, i am
trying to be very cautious about a basic design. it does look
like an effort went into taking it up to that volcano. if it is
from more than four decades ago but less than five, i am
almost sore tempted to link it to a burning man festival...

Reply
. link
8/17/2014 05:11:26 pm

http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/anthropology/science-homo-erectus-human-like-hand-bone-01620.html

WHAT GETs ME IS THAT ITSs OUR BRAINS THAT
CHANGE OVER THE LAST MILLION YEARS OR SO.

LUCY of 3.2 million years ago has a triangular hand
bone like the "Hobbits" on Flores some 100,000 years
ago. There is a loosely a three million year gap between
her and they.Their hands are less like our hands at times.

Reply
. link
8/17/2014 05:26:21 pm

bones more recent than 400,ooo years can be DNA tested

http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/anthropology/science-homo-floresiensis-not-distinct-human-species-02097.html

this last article is basically just off the presses... and it
has its levels of opinion, speculation and hypothesis.

Reply
ronald
10/19/2015 04:56:45 am

haleakala is a an alchatraz they get to keep you prisoner long time before they let you go. and they take anything they want from the park and get away with it. never let them know what you find. most rocks are graves, and curses travel world wide. spaceships travel there nightly and lives of rangers rare threatened if ever reported.

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David Lewis
12/12/2016 01:06:13 pm

Hi
I recently discovered a location where there is an ancient, clovis, with lots and lots of broken arrow and spear tips. I have learned alot by examining the tips before and after they were of no use any more
thx David.

Reply
Wesley D. Stoner
9/5/2019 09:53:41 am

I am researching this for a class I am teaching in Pseudoarchaeology. I have handled this artifact, and I can say with certainty that it is a poorly made fake. Green obsidian can be purchased on ebay. The point is too thick and heavy to be functional. Most of the flaking terminates in hinge fractures, a sign of a poor knapper. Finally, there are undetached microflakes all over the thing that could detach with even the slightest pressure from a fingernail. 1000 years kicking around on the surface (again, speaking in terms of archaeological context, why not somehow buried after 1000 years?) and these undetached microflakes would no longer be there. OR at least there would be some dirt under them, which there wasn't. How did it get there in the first place? A clumsy hunter accidentally lost his point that was transported across a vast ocean? For those who want to believe this, sorry...it's a fake. Not saying there couldn't have been contact, but this artifact does not support that contact.

Reply
Wesley D. Stoner
9/5/2019 10:02:12 am

I'll add that we did chemical analysis on the point, and it IS from the Pachuca source in central Mexico. But like I said above, that only proves that someone had access to ebay, or visited Teotihuacan where someone can buy points like this for 20 pesos.

Reply
Gerald Michell
2/7/2021 05:10:14 pm

There is the story of Arctic whalers capturing a right whale with a 200 yr old Inuit spear point imbedded in it, this could have happened here with Mayan whalers, the whale may have washed up on shore or harvested by Hawaiian whalers, the point may have been Mayan fine and then re-sharpened by the finder/owner, prestige piece for burial with owner,, just a thought

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