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Andrew Collins Is Having Trouble in Turkey

10/1/2019

38 Comments

 
Proofreading and indexing is slow-going work, and I’m finding it challenging to fit enough of it into my workday to meet the deadline after the publisher delivered the page proofs late, cutting the indexing time way down. As a result, I am not going to be doing much blogging until the indexing and proofreading are done. The good news, for what it’s worth, is that indexing goes faster the deeper into a book I go because most of the index terms will have already been entered into the list, so by the time I am halfway through, it will mostly be autopilot.
Meanwhile, I thought I would briefly discuss Andrew Collins’s Facebook postings from last week in which he claimed that Turkey was out to get him. If you subscribe to my weekly newsletter, I briefly mentioned it there, but it’s worth repeating for everyone. Collins says that his book From the Ashes of Angels was banned in Turkey and that he has himself been kicked out of Göbekli Tepe because of his controversial views about the site. No, not that it’s some sort of Nephilim-Denisovan afterlife computer. At first he said it was because he refuses to accept the Turkish line that Göbekli Tepe is the temple of idols that Abraham destroyed in the Qur’an, a claim that some Islamists in Turkey have been promoting with help from the Turkish government, as I reported years ago. (While Turkey’s media has promoted the claim, the government has done nothing to suppress actual archaeological research about the site’s history.)
 
Collins posted a YouTube video about the issue.
As he discussed the issue of the ban on his book, Collins admitted the real reason: His book carries a dedication to Kurdish independence, which ran afoul of Turkey’s hardline position against Kurdish independence or autonomy. A Turkish court found that the book was “propaganda” for the Kurds.
 
The suppression of books because they disagree with the government is a tragedy, and doing so in service of political ends is outrageous. The Turkish government is wrong to do this, and it betrays a fundamental sense of weakness if they think their position is so insecure that a bonkers book by a nutjob from Ancient Aliens can threaten an entire government. I’ve faced a lesser version of this when Turkish Pres. Erdogan’s supporters spent weeks attacking me when the Washington Post cited a blog post of mine to refute Erdogan’s false claim that Columbus saw an Islamic mosque in Cuba.
 
The Göbekli Tepe incident is, frankly, more funny than it is tragic. Dr. Lee Clare of the German Archaeological Institute, apparently screamed at Collins that he didn’t want Collins’s pseudoscience at the site and berated him until Collins left the site.
 
I can’t even work up the energy to care about him getting yelled at for having stupid ideas. I can however work up the energy to note that Collins spent more time in his YouTube video bitching about getting yelled at by Lee Clare than he did from having the weight of the Turkish government used to suppress his work. They just don’t carry the same weight, but Collins was much madder at Clare because Clare called him a purveyor of “pseudoscience,” which insulted Collins more than being considered a threat. In other words, one action hurt his ego and the other flattered it.
38 Comments
Kent
9/30/2019 08:06:27 pm

Having just looked at Mr. Collins's website, in this case I side with President Erdoğan. Mr. Collins is an idiot who buys into seemingly all of the stuff that has been discussed here ad infinitum.

I just pray to Black Jesus that he had time to finish clearing the poison ivy.

Reply
Aaa
10/1/2019 01:16:46 pm

I would take it as a compliment to be called a pseudoscientist by hardcore mainstreamists.

Reply
DR. MARTIN HESSELIUS
10/1/2019 02:03:28 pm

Consider yourself complimented.

Reply
Iskanander
10/1/2019 03:55:05 pm

Seems to me it would be prudent to do everything we can to keep Andy C. From pissing off "Islamists" that control world heritage sites. Right?

Otherwise:

"...all of the stuff that has been discussed here ad infinitum."

I have a question, open to the forum:

What the heck do you think Göbekli Tepe is? Or, "was"?

So far I haven't run in to anyone's ideas that really make any sort of sense. I say that while believing that the world and it's human-manufactured artifacts and residue have changed, but people haven't.

Reply
Ski
9/8/2021 07:53:05 am

Me too man, me too… the only consistent narrative grounded in most credible is some of the hieroglyphs indicated a comet or some type of cataclysmic event. But nobody knows anything concrete yet. Sigh.

Reply
Iskanander
10/1/2019 03:57:15 pm

"Trouble in Turkey".

When has there not been?

Reply
Doc Rock
10/1/2019 08:43:25 pm

I've always wondered what might happen if one of these idiots show up while someone is actually working a site. A very different dynamic from hanging out at the Great Pyramid or the Sphinx or Stonehenge for photo ops or a video bite for a crappy "documentary while nothing else is going on there.

Reply
Iskanander
10/1/2019 11:19:11 pm

Good question.

Is someone doing archeology-shit at Göbekli Tepe right now?

I wouldn't know how to confirm that. But you might. Is that an "active" site, or whatever you call it, right now?

Reply
Doc Rock
10/1/2019 11:44:22 pm

My reading was that Collins and Clare were both at the site and Clare yelled at Collins until he left. I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that Clare was at the site working.

Iskanander
10/2/2019 12:17:40 am

Just curious because I don't know how you folks operate that sort of business.

If it's a "pot-bellied" hill that is the result of covering up what was there and we are just taking tiny brushes to the navel?

What's keeping folks from digging drainage trenches and just going in with pressure washers and just stuck a fork in the mystery?

Thanks, Doc.

Kent
10/2/2019 12:42:41 am

Setting "trenches and pressure washers" aside for the moment,

https://www.academia.edu/33931844/MORE_THAN_A_VULTURE_A_RESPONSE_TO_SWEATMAN_AND_TSIKRITSIS

Doc Rock
10/2/2019 12:29:11 pm

A site like GT has many mysteries that require very slow and careful excavation and analysis of materials recovered in-situ. digging trenches and using pressure washers would be like exploring the mysteries of the human by dissecting a cadaver with a chainsaw and meat cleaver and then looking at the pieces under a bright light.

Iskanander
10/2/2019 09:45:24 pm

Been thinking a lot about your post. I realized that I had really wanted to leverage my silly post about trenches and power-washers to highlight some of my Scythian-humor. Yes, funny stuff about Scythians. That sort of thing happens when you don't have anyone to talk to about Scythians. But since you replied so thoughtfully, and gave me stuff to think about, I'm engaged.

I appreciated your "cadaver" analogy. I have a lot of direct experience with that sort of thing. Not cadavers necessarily, but the tools and lights and all the things that accompany all sorts of surgery. I think you'd be surprised, if you thought about it, at how "chainsaw-like", and "cleaver-like" the tools of that trade are. Then there's the lights; That's a whole technology that drives a bunch of trade and innovation all on its own.

I think any "feathering" with tiny brushes would be more in the realm of microscopes and microbiology labs.

So, I think if I had to sum up what I imagine to be the difference you draw in the analogy, it would be that in the case of the human cadaver, we don't feather away at a fingernail til it's dislodged and then go about making any assumptions about the entire system. I'm using "entire system" so I can avoid saying "the liver", or something like that.

What do you think?

I'm pretty sure the new pressure washers would allow for some "feathering".

RICHARD UPTON PICKMAN
10/2/2019 10:02:51 pm

I think that I've got a few close personal friends that I'd like you to meet.

Kent
10/2/2019 10:18:14 pm

"I think any "feathering" with tiny brushes would be more in the realm of microscopes and microbiology labs."

Newsflash: "What you think" is not part of any archaeology curriculum.

Barry Gibb
10/2/2019 10:22:47 pm

🎵More than a vulture...🎵

🎵...more than a vulture to me-ee-ee🎵

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HdrF_m67vr8

W. Ross Ashby
10/2/2019 10:40:51 pm

"What you think" is not part of any archaeology curriculum".

Well, I think it should be. What's wrong with scientific disciplines sharing notes?

Kent
10/3/2019 12:14:34 am

There's "scientific disciplines" and there's being wrong.

I gave the context for my remark and you kindly removed it. Drainage ditches and power washers are basic tools in the astronomer's toolkit but have little or no place in archaeology.

Doc Rock
10/2/2019 10:16:45 pm

Imagine wanting to take the body apart down to the smallest organs, bones, blood vessels and then down to their constituent parts, and then try to understand their relationship to one another. You are going to go as slowly and carefully as possible and with the smallest and most appropriate instruments for particular tasks.

Archaeology sites don't just consist of big rocks and tools to be uncovered in the easiest way possible. There are "features" in the soil that represent different types of soil to be collected and analyzed. Some floral and faunal remains in a site can be so small as to be nearly microscopic. Some artifacts or bones can be so fragile that anything but the lightest of touches will destroy them. Better to err on the side of caution and precision.

Something along the lines of a pressure washer is useful if it is decided that it is appropriate to water screen soil/sand/small rocks, etc. after removed from the ground, though.


Reply
Iskanander
10/3/2019 08:55:16 pm

"Something along the lines of a pressure washer is useful if it is decided that it is appropriate to water screen soil/sand/small rocks, etc. after removed from the ground, though."

I suspected as much. I started to try and imagine how my absurd suggestion might be more practical, and started thinking of mining techniques, and gauged sieves, and that sort of thing.

There are some tiny dissection tools for surgery that do resemble sort of little brushes, but the "whisker" part is sharpened steel. I think they are used primarily for fine dissection of blood vessels. I only encountered them very rarely, and out of context; which is to say I wasn't handing them to anyone that was about to use them.

Thanks for the reply, by the way. 😊

I suppose all I can think to add is that the cadaver analogy is a good one, but maybe not the best. We can go after a cadaver with tiny "chainsaws" and "cleavers" because we know what to expect and where we should go to find what we're looking for so that the "featherers" can then go on to handle any mystery that escapes our limited senses.

You just made Archeology sound way more complicated and multidisciplinary.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
10/4/2019 03:30:43 pm

Hi Doc -

A hot shower is not the best thing after exposure to poison plants, as it opens the pores. A moderate temperature shower is better.

I expect Andy to develop a protocol for his students and to follow it, the hole nine yards.

Then we can move on to Andy's unfamiliarity with contact era ethnography, the paleo landscape, and game migration patterns.

Reply
Kent
10/4/2019 04:54:44 pm

Nice to see that you have roused yourself from your sickbed because that bodes well for your much to be desired deceasement, but...

Jesus fucking Christ you are an idiot!

Doc Rock
10/4/2019 08:09:15 pm

A hot shower always worked for me. The one dermatology site that I took a quick look at advised against "very hot" water. But if folks want to go with lukewarm water or ice cold water then fine because washing and sensible clothing still does the trick. No elaborate protocol or nuking an entire site with multiple applications of chemicals is required.


I was unaware that White was so ignorant of so many topics related to archaeology. Wouldn't surprise me if the University of Michigan decides to revoke his Ph.D. and give it to you since you much more clearly understand all these things.

kent
10/4/2019 10:27:10 pm

Mr. Grondine expects it! Because he claims Indian ancestry that makes it part of the Native Oral Tradition. Show some respect!

Jr. Time Lord
10/5/2019 02:06:58 am

E.P. GRONDINE
10/4/2019 03:30:43 pm

"A hot shower is not the best thing after exposure to poison plants, as it opens the pores. A moderate temperature shower is better."

Dawn original dish soap. The temperature of the water is irrelevant. Dawn works every time without needing a cortisone shot in the keister.

Doc Rock
10/5/2019 04:25:40 am

E.P.'s blood quantum is probably too low for the tradition of using jewelweed for poison ivy to register.

E.P. Grondine
10/5/2019 10:22:04 am

AW strikes me as being a fun guy, a nice artist, and has done good work in dealing with theosophist cult archaeology.

But I can not recomend him as an archaeology instructor when there are so many other fine programs out there.

Jim
10/6/2019 12:26:19 am

This is E.P. Grondine, the one who is giving an assessment of an actual well qualified archaeology instructor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCCbP9I4nHw&list=PLQFjoWZeHDMQln37vSd1heFOfte_O_Rhp&index=3&t=0s

Not Kent
10/3/2019 09:29:47 pm

"Drainage ditches and power washers are basic tools in the astronomer's toolkit..."

That's really funny. Been chuckling over that for a couple days now. Made my face muscles hurt for a sec cuz they are rusty.

But it's not as funny as Scythian humour. That only means you aren't as sick as I am; But nevertheless.

You are racking up guffaws on the latest industrial-slag thread, though.

Here's an consolation prize:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Otmq80677V0

Reply
Kent
10/4/2019 07:13:00 am

"a couple days"? Based on timestamps that's clearly a lie.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
10/4/2019 03:25:24 pm

I am reminded of Brad Lepper, who plagiarized Bob Converse's book, and then forbid the sale of Converse's book in all OHS pfoperties.

Reply
E.P. Grondine's Pussy
10/4/2019 10:37:48 pm

Meow.

Reply
Sticker
10/5/2019 07:53:23 am

I'm so confused by all of the questions and conversation on here about "what archaeology is" and "what is happening at Göbekli Tepe" --- Come on, guys, if you really want to know, look it up!

Here is a great blog (the old discontinued one) of articles and updates created by actual members of the German Archaeological Institute team at Göbekli Tepe: https://tepetelegrams.wordpress.com/home/

Here is the new version (now officially part of the German Archaeological Institute's web presence), still as awesome and updated regularly: https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/

Enjoy!

Reply
Kent
10/5/2019 08:33:04 am

If it doesn't address poison ivy it's useless.

Reply
Doc Rock
10/5/2019 08:46:02 am

I've checked out the GT website in the past and don't recall seeing any discussion of why it isn't a good idea to excavate the site by means of drainage trenches and pressure washers. But there is a lot of material and perhaps I missed it.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
10/5/2019 10:31:21 am

This is beyond sad. I have always enjoyed Collins' books, and although I have not agreed with all of his speculations, they have always been based on a factual basis.

Collins interest in angels led to his book, and not some theosophist claptrap.

Collins had a good relationship with Schultz, the original GT excavator His showing gratitude to his Kurdish hosts probably brought this on.

i suppose Collins is just discovering how controversial archaeology can become, when nationalism and science collide.

Reply
Kent
10/5/2019 04:21:48 pm

"His showing gratitude to his Kurdish hosts probably brought this on."

"His book carries a dedication to Kurdish independence, which ran afoul of Turkey’s hardline position against Kurdish independence or autonomy. A Turkish court found that the book was “propaganda” for the Kurds."

You idiot.

Reply
TONY S.
10/5/2019 11:57:34 pm

So, you're saying Theosophy is claptrap, but believing in angels isn't?

Interesting thought process.

Reply

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