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Astrology, Cycles of Time, and Chronology among Pagan Greeks and Christians

7/18/2017

29 Comments

 
​Over the past few weeks I’ve talked quite a bit about the Alexandrian chronographers Panodorus and Annianus, and I have discussed some of the sources they used in compiling their influential discussion of world history, one that included the Fallen Angels as a key pivot point in antediluvian events. To that end, it’s interesting to note that the two authors seem to differ from their source material a bit. It is widely assumed, for example, that Panodorus relied on the so-called Book of Sothis, a forgery wrongly assigned to the Egyptian priest Manetho, for his Egyptian chronology, not least because this forgery has distinctly Judeo-Christian elements, identifying various pharaohs with their Biblical counterparts and identifying the first king of Egypt as Mizraim, the son of Ham, son of Noah. This is noteworthy primarily because Eusebius, in his Chronicle, makes that same identification, but does not attribute it to Manetho. 
​Eusebius wrote that all of the Egyptian claims for earlier kings before Mizraim were lies, and the surviving summary of the Book of Sothis seems to suggest that Egyptian history begins with Mizraim but that there had been a time before the Flood when Hermes studied the stars in Egypt. Too bad that too little survives to know what the book said about history before the Flood. We know from George Syncellus, though, that Panodorus “endeavours to demonstrate that the Egyptian books, which are quite at issue with our inspired and sacred books, may be reconciled with them, passing censure upon Eusebius” (Chronicle 42, anonymous 1855 trans.). In other words, he accepted the gods and demigods, who don’t appear in the Book of Sothis, and identified them with the Watchers of Enoch. In fact, Syncellus chides Panodorus for accepting such fictions as antediluvian kings of Egypt. “For neither had Babylon and Chaldea any kings before the Deluge, nor Egypt before Mizraim, nor, as I think, was it inhabited at all before that time.” In this, he echoes Augustine, who in his City of God (12.10) railed against the “highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000 years have yet passed” (trans. Marcus Dods).
 
While Christians were divided on this issue, I thought it interesting to look into what the pagan Greeks and Romans had to say about the chronology of the world just before the time that our authors wrote. There is surprisingly little information about their efforts at chronology outside of what the Christian Fathers wrote of them, but one relevant piece of information comes from the Roman grammarian Censorinus, who composed a book called On Birthdays in 238 CE, just before Eusebius and Panodorus wrote. In chapter 18, he offers a very familiar discussion that echoes much of what we know from Christian and Islamic views of history:
There is also a year which Aristotle calls Perfect, rather than Great, which is formed by the revolution of the sun, of the moon and of the five planets, when they all come at the same time to the celestial point from which they started together. This year has a great winter called by the Greeks the Inundation and by the Latins The Deluge; it has also a summer which the Greeks call the Conflagration of the world. The world is supposed to have been by turns deluged or on fire at each of these epochs. According to the opinion of Aristarchus this year was composed of 2484 solar years; according to Arestes of Dyrrachium, it was 5552 years; according to Heraclitus and Linus it was 10,800; according to Dion it was 10,884; according to Orpheus it was 10,020 years; and according to Cassandrus it was 3,600,000 years. Others have thought it infinite; and that it would never recur. (trans. William Maude)
​Many Classical authors believed that there had been fires and floods and would be again. Most of the authors that Censorinus references and the other Classical writers who wrote of this issue did not specifically attribute the fire and flood to a specific star cycle, though Plato implied as much in his Timaeus. The Babylonian priest Berossus had said much the same, and did attribute the claim to the stars:
​Berosus, who thus interprets the Babylonian tradition, says that these events take place according to the course of the stars; and he affirms it so positively as to fix the time for the (general) conflagration of the world, and the Deluge. He maintains that all terrestrial things will be consumed when the planets, which now are traversing their different courses, shall all coincide in the sign of Cancer, and be so placed, that a straight line could pass directly through all their orbs. But the Flood will take place (he says) when the same conjunction of the planets shall take place in the constellation Capricorn. The summer is in the former constellation, the winter in the latter. (Seneca, Natural Questions 3.29, trans. I. P. Cory)
​Thus, it seems that the claim moved from Babylon to Egypt via the Greeks and through astrology, and the Greek version found fertile fields in Late Antiquity among Christians like Panodorus who already believed in the Enochian Pillars of Wisdom and the prophecy, born of the Watchers or Adam or the angels, that fire would follow flood. This prophecy was probably a reflection of the Babylonian, like the Greek. However, Censorinus’ testimony shows us that by the period when our Christian authors wrote, the astrological interpretation of history had come to dominate, and as he indicates, the periods of that great year were likened to the seasons of the Mediterranean basin. There, winter is the wet season and summer the dry, and so this translated into flood and fire.
 
The growing tendency to see the stars as the arbiters of history seems to help connect the Book of Enoch to chronography, for Enoch’s corpus of literature has a lengthy astrological treatise. It seems that astrology helped to tie together formerly disparate traditions.
 
But what is perhaps of interest, albeit minor, is that Syncellus made use of a pagan chronicle, attributed to Eratosthenes, and recorded by Pseudo-Apollodorus, but which originated with Egyptian priests at Thebes. While its historiography agrees in no way with standard records, it is interesting to see that at least one Greek source listed a pharaoh (the eleventh Theban pharaoh) as Sirius, like the star, which was also know by the Hellenized Egyptian name Sothis. This is only important to me because the fragments of Abenephius, allegedly a medieval Jewish treatise on Egypt, refer to Khufu as “Sothis” and also identify Menes with Mizraim as the Book of Sothis and Eusebius had done. What connection there is, I can’t say, but it does show that there was at least the groundwork for identifying pharaohs with astrological events as far back as the Hellenistic period. 
29 Comments
Thorwald C. Franke link
7/18/2017 11:51:19 am

A very good topic to reflect the thesis that Plato believed in the existence of Atlantis, and that his readers took it seriously (although we know today that it cannot be real in a literal sense -- but they in their time could not know this). It was usual in Plato's times to consider Egypt to be 10000 years old, and Atlantis is a story from Egypt.

Those Christians, who believed in an age of the world of ca. 6000 years could of course not accept the 9000 years from Plato, so the rejected it. We can expect this from the lost works of Panorodus and Annianus, too. -- Other Christians were in favour of Atlantis and did not criticize the 9000 years. Among them Tertullian.

There are a lot of ancient authors who do not mention Atlantis explicitly yet mention an opinion about Plato's views such that it becomes clear that they believed or disbelieved in Plato's Atlantis. They are never mentioned in any book about Atlantis, until today. For example Saint Augustine who heavily polemizes against the view that the world is 9000 years old, that history goes in cycles, that Egyptians provide information about the past, or similar things which are clear attacks against a Platonic world view. Saint Augustine surely did not believe in Atlantis. This is safe to say. -- Another example is Hippolytos of Rome who most probably was in favour of the existence of Atlantis.

Find many until today unknown authors of antiquity expressing an unmistakenly clear opinion about Plato's Atlantis in my (German) book "Kritische Geschichte der Meinungen und Hypothesen zu Platons Atlantis",
http://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-geschichte-hypothesen.htm

Reply
Americanegro
7/18/2017 04:18:57 pm

Let's all get reacquainted with Mr. Franke, shall we?

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/lost-continent-of-atlantis-makes-triumphant-media-tour

Reply
Kal
7/18/2017 03:13:32 pm

Surely ancient scholars were guessing on these deep time ages of ancient history, knowing nothing at that point how astronomy actually worked, or even basic social history, or scientific history, which had not been invented yet.

Modern religions should not buy into the 6,000 years thing at all, as even the natural world proves much over via dating techniques.

Still there are those who believe such things, and are not thinking if it makes sense.

But if we confuse myth and oral tradition for scientific fact, when it is merely an established theory, lots of opinions, and documented hearsay, it is more a belief (thousands of years as creationists think) than an actual provable thing. (They can prove the universe is tens of billions of years old even from telescopes).

The bones of ancient living things can be dated at even millions (of years), discounting all of that 'oh we just guessed it was thousands' mythical stuff.

But one should not abandon all faith because some of it is hearsay and could not have been.

Plato was likely guessing too.





Reply
David Bradbury
7/18/2017 03:35:02 pm

Astronomy, famously, has been studied in detail from very early times. Ancient astronomers may not have understood what the lights in the sky were, or their spatial relationship to the Earth, but the sophistication of their observation and measurement system was beautiful, and at least sufficient to enable them to start thinking in terms of very long cycles.

Reply
Thorwald C. Franke link
7/18/2017 04:00:05 pm

No, Plato was most probably *not* guessing. Of course, he was wrong with his datings. Agreed. But Plato is not the man for guessing. It is more probable to listen to him what he himself says about his sources.

The 10000 years stuff was more than hearsay in his times. It was what more or less all believed to be true. And the source for it was Egypt, a most ancient civilization which preserved knowledge from times where no one could read and write in Greece. At least, this is very true. Only, that it does not reach back in time such far as they thought. Only 2500 years from Plato's time, not 10000 years.

Still today the Egyptian records form a backbone of history writing for the history of the Eastern mediterranean region. The Greeks got it right from a quality aspect, but not from a quantity aspect.

Reply
Americanegro
7/18/2017 04:34:46 pm

I look forward to the explanation of the distinction between "hearsay" and "what more or less all believed to be true".

"And the source for it was Egypt, a most ancient civilization which preserved knowledge from times where no one could read and write in Greece."

So, contemporaneous with Sumerian. Which puts it in the "So What" file.

"At least, this is very true."

Yeah, sure, whatever.

"Still today the Egyptian records form a backbone of history writing for the history of the Eastern mediterranean region."

Seriously dude? Do you even cuneiform bro?

Let's all get reacquainted with Mr. Franke, shall we?

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/lost-continent-of-atlantis-makes-triumphant-media-tour

Thorwald C. Franke link
7/18/2017 05:04:23 pm

Hello Americanegro ...

Hearsy is mostly not believed, as well as myths are mostly not believed, if they are recognized as such. What almost all believe, including authorities such as experts, is believed.

The source of the mistake was Egypt, surely, this is where the Greeks got this knowledge from. We can be more precise: The Greeks *thought* that Egypt was the source. In fact, the source was the *encounter* of Greek and Egyptian notions. This is the source of the mistake to believe Egypt to be so old. Herodotus started the game, Plato himself talks of 10000 years in the Laws (and most scholars take this as what Plato really believed), Diodorus follows, and so on, and so on. They all were wrong, and they all thought they got this from Egypt. And after some time, the Egyptians themselves believed this and mirrored it back to the Greeks.

Cuneiform tablets ... nice. But they do not replace Egyptian records. The cuneiform writing did not start before Egyptian writing, or at least not long before. Furthermore, I am pretty sure that the succession of kings is more messy in the Near East than it was in Egypt. And king lists are the backbone of every chronology of this time. Yes, Egypt is the backbone, still today.

The Greeks were not wrong in their expectation to find out about the past by searching in Egyptian records. That they made mistakes is another matter. Plato's Atlantis surely did not exist in a literal sense. But this does not mean that it did not exist at all.

Americanegro
7/18/2017 06:33:10 pm

"The 10000 years stuff was more than hearsay in his times. It was what more or less all believed to be true."

Because you time-travelled and took a survey?

"Cuneiform tablets ... nice. But they do not replace Egyptian records."

Because they are not records of Egypt. That said, they are better records of Mesopotamia than Egyptian records are of Egypt. I'm guessing you read don't read any of these languages. And I'm right.

"Furthermore, I am pretty sure that the succession of kings is more messy in the Near East than it was in Egypt. And king lists are the backbone of every chronology of this time."

Do you even intelligent bro? Do you even read bro? Do you even Mesopotamian king list bro?

"Plato's Atlantis surely did not exist in a literal sense. But this does not mean that it did not exist at all."

Excuse me, but what the fuck? It didn't exist but that doesn't mean it didn't exist?

TONY S.
7/19/2017 08:11:35 am

Americanegro,

All great points, especially the one about how cuneiform tablets are better records of Mesopotamia than Egyptian records are of Egypt.

I'm frankly baffled by that Atlantis comment too. It didn't exist in a literal sense, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist at all...?

Only Me
7/19/2017 08:37:04 am

@Americanegro, Tony S.

Mr. Franke is saying that Atlantis, as described by Plato, didn't exist. Instead, Atlantis was possibly a real civilization Plato knew about and embellished in his story.

If we accept this premise, then we have to ask the obvious question: Is Plato's Atlantis a historically known civilization for which we have archaeological evidence? If the answer is yes, then which one is the best candidate? Mr. Franke hasn't said.

If the answer is no, then what is the basis for Mr. Franke's premise? Answer: Herodotus was wrong about Egypt's age, Egypt is a known entity and no one has correctly identified Egyptian records of this potential candidate for Atlantis.

Now, what is the basis of that last argument? It comes from Plato himself. According to the story, Egyptian priests shared their knowledge of this Atlantis/not-Atlantis with Solon, who shared it with Critias, who shared it with Plato, even as Critias admitted his recollection of the story was faulty due to his old age.

So, the way Plato described Atlantis cannot be used to determine whether or not it really existed, BUT, the details of how Plato came to know of it must be true.

It's simply cherry-picking those parts of the story that support the premise while ignoring those that don't.

TONY S.
7/19/2017 10:54:37 am

OnlyMe,

That at least makes sense. OK, it wasn't immediately clear, thanks.

Thorwald C. Franke link
7/19/2017 02:50:29 pm

@Americanegro:

I wonder whether you deride me although you know better, or whether you really do not realize the idea of my arguments. Let us take your last words:

I wrote: "Plato's Atlantis surely did not exist in a literal sense. But this does not mean that it did not exist at all." -- You answered: "Excuse me, but what the fuck? It didn't exist but that doesn't mean it didn't exist?"

You omitted the "literal" ... which is the crucial thing here. Can't you see that ancient texts describe real things but distort the facts, unintentionally? I think, I can expect you that you can see this. And you omitted the crucial "literal" intentionally.

So, why the heck do you try to deride me at any cost?
Do we know each other? Did I hurt you?

For the rest:

No I did not time-travel. The information comes from the ancient authors, where you will find exactly what I said. I just repeat what scholars say on the topic. The only thing I add is the link to Atlantis. This you will rarely find in scholarly publications. But in some, you even find this. See for scholars open for Atlantis as a real place here: https://www.atlantis-scout.de/

Your guess about my knowledge of ancient languages is wrong. I learned (besides Latin and Ancient Greek) the so-called Middle Egytpian, i.e. "Hieroglyphic" in popular terms.

I do not want to quarrel with you whether the Egyptian or Mesopotamian records are of better quality. Be this as it may be. But please consider that in Plato's time only Egyptian records were known, not cuneiform tablets. And please consider also this: The 10000 years are *not* in the Egyptian records. The idea of the 10000 years came into being as I said above. And again, this is what scholars say. Cf. e.g. Jan Assmann, Weisheit und Mysterium, or any other good discussion of Herodotus and the Saitic time of Egypt.

@Only Me:

No, I do not say that the main distortion comes from Plato's embellishments. The main distortions come from the tradition over time from civilization to civilization, and these patterns of typical distortion are a topic of study among scholars.

Furthermore, you should not "accept" the premise, but you should accept the mere possibility! I am not claiming to have solved the riddle. I only claim that certain arguments against the existence of Atlantis do not work. I think I wrote this already. Solving this questions requires many steps. And one of the first steps is to realize that there really could be a real Atlantis of which Plato could say: Yes, this does not perfectly look as I thought but this is what I was talking about.

Americanegro
7/19/2017 04:24:57 pm

"Cuneiform tablets ... nice. But they do not replace Egyptian records. The cuneiform writing did not start before Egyptian writing, or at least not long before." Ass. You might as well say Chinese records don't replace Venezuelan records.

"Be this as it may be. But please consider that in Plato's time only Egyptian records were known, not cuneiform tablets." Again, ass. Cuneiform was in use at the time of Plato.

You may own a book on hieroglyphics but that's the extent of your knowledge.

If something doesn't exist in a literal sense it does not exist. This is not rocket science, Werner.

"Did I hurt you?" Are you in the habit of hurting people? So many that you don't remember? Tell us about that. Why don't you start with your first kill?

Let's all get reacquainted with Mr. Franke, shall we?

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/lost-continent-of-atlantis-makes-triumphant-media-tour

Thorwald C. Franke link
7/19/2017 05:03:15 pm

Americanegro:

By such a polemic style of discussion you prevent yourself of improving your knowledge.

You always confuse things and do not listen. It is not important whether cuneiform still existed at Plato's times, it is important whether Plato knew about this -- or about Egypt. It is not important whether the 10000 years came from Egyptian records, it is important that the Greeks thought so.

And the following is really the repeated evidence that you are not qualified for academic thinking, you wrote again: "If something doesn't exist in a literal sense it does not exist. This is not rocket science, Werner."

I can only smile on this. You declare almost all ancient texts to be works of pure phantasy. Because all of them deviate from reality in one way or another. I wish you well with this opinion.

Americanegro
7/19/2017 05:14:28 pm

"It is not important whether cuneiform still existed at Plato's times." Again, ass.

"But please consider that in Plato's time only Egyptian records were known, not cuneiform tablets." Again, ass.

Make up your mind, Heinrich. Either the Danzig Corridor or the Sudetenland. And how about bringing your website into the 1990s?

"You declare almost all ancient texts to be works of pure phantasy."

Sounds like the sort of lie a Jewkiller would tell. I never said such a thing but I will proudly wear whatever colored badge your oberhauptgovernment dictates.

Let's all get reacquainted with Mr. Franke, shall we?

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/lost-continent-of-atlantis-makes-triumphant-media-tour

Only Me
7/18/2017 06:28:20 pm

Nice article, Jason. It's interesting to see how the fire/flood myth and wisdom literature are brought together by astrology.

Reply
bkd69
7/19/2017 01:27:28 am

Damn, so even the 'catastrophic planetary alignment' books of recent vintage are as recycled as the ancient aliens/ascended masters/nephilim material.

Reply
TONY S.
7/19/2017 08:04:30 am

"There is surprisingly little information outside of what the Christian Fathers wrote of them..."

I don't think it's all that hard to believe, when you consider how much classical knowledge was lost through destruction, both accidental and deliberate which took place during the Hellenistic and Roman periods, culminating in the early Christian period. Whole libraries and corpuses of literature covering countless subjects were lost through war, natural disaster, rioting, etc.

"...it does show that there was at least the groundwork for identifying pharaohs with astrological events as far back as the Hellenistic period."

It's perfectly feasible that there were treatises that connected the Egyptian pharaohs with astrological events. Especially in centers of learning within Egypt itself (most notably Alexandria) and Babylon, both of whom were ruled by Hellenistic dynasties that revered and stimulated scholarship. Such scholarship in Egypt, where the Ptolemies were doing everything they could to glorify themselves as pharaohs to keep themselves legitimate in the eyes of the populace, would have been perfectly in place with what we know about other methods they and the native priesthood did to create their unique Greco-Egyptian culture.

Reply
Americanegro
7/19/2017 12:18:56 pm

Don't forget about Clement of Alexandria having Hyapatia Lee flayed alive.

Reply
TONY S.
7/19/2017 01:14:16 pm

Ah, yes. Those lovely early Christians, their maniacal intolerance of others, and their pathological hatred of all ancient knowledge.

We have them to thank also for the final obliteration of whatever ancient monuments and sculpture were still standing by that time in that once proud and beautiful city.

Americanegro
7/19/2017 01:48:38 pm

You know when Homer Simpson says "I get jokes"? You're no Homer Simpson.

TONY S.
7/19/2017 03:15:59 pm

And you're no George Carlin. ;)

Americanegro
7/19/2017 04:01:16 pm

No, still on the right side of the dirt.

Shane Sullivan
7/20/2017 11:05:56 am

Tony S, Hypatia was a philosopher who was murdered by a mob of Christians in Alexandria; Hyapatia Lee is an ex-porn star who claims that aliens brought cannabis to Native Americans.

Transward
7/23/2017 08:02:33 pm

Clement of Alexandria, ancient Christian theologian, (died c. 220,) Hypatia of Alexandria, ancient Pagan philosopher and mathematician, (died c. 415,) Hyapatia Lee, Native American porn star & spiritual leader. (born November 11, 1960). Your scholarship seems a bit suspect. Perhaps, a bit less arrogance might be appropriate.

TONY S.
7/20/2017 02:41:02 pm

Ah. It's been awhile since I kept tabs on porn stars. I took the intellectual route by default.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Good one.

Thanks, Shane.



Reply
Shane Sullivan
7/21/2017 01:17:19 am

Hey, I'll take any excuse to talk about adult films. =P

E.P. Grondine
7/21/2017 12:49:41 pm

Hi Jason -

It is strange to me when reading "scientific" articles from the early 1800's to note that you had biblical literalists, whose creation began say 6,000 - 4,000 BCE, arguing with Platonists, who absolutely defended Atlantis at say 11,000 BCE.

When working through your short notes on multiple authors,
it would help if you used each particular author's name instead of the pronoun "he". It will make your analysis easier to follow.

Reply
Thorwald C. Franke link
7/21/2017 01:23:23 pm

E.P. Grondine:

Yes, and the interesting thing is: The same discussion happened in Late Antiquity: Platonists against Christians.

It is really astonishing that from a modern point of view two wrong opinions were in battle with each other, yet one of them once was "our" side, the side of the enlightened and learned men; it was the side of the Platonists.

In the high Middle Ages, scholars could talk relatively freely about Atlantis and its alleged time period, yet when the inquisition started to tighten around 1250 AD, this stopped until the Renaissance.

Find a long lists of authors in the table of contents of my book about the history of Atlantis hypotheses from antiquity to 1896.
http://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-geschichte-hypothesen.htm

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