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Australian Astrophysicist Claims Pleiades Myth Is 100,000 Years Old

2/3/2021

25 Comments

 
My computer's hard drive died, so I am working, slowly, from a backup machine while I shop for a new computer, since the other parts, like the keyboard, the monitor, and the touch pad, aren't working so well either. The last time this happened, last year, I received a one-year warranty on the hard drive, and it lasted ten whole days past the end of the warranty before crapping out. Anyway, on to today's issue...
Regular readers will remember that last year a team of Australian researchers alleged that an Aboriginal Australian story accurately recalled the eruption of Budj Bim 37,000 years ago. Prior to that, Australian linguist Nicholas Reid claimed that Aboriginal oral history accurately recorded the state of the continent's coastlines ten thousand year ago. Now, another Australian has a new claim to beat them both.

Australian astrophysicist Richard Norris claims that Aboriginal traditions prove that the Pleiades received their common name, "The Seven Sisters," fully 100,000 years ago. Live Science reports that he made the claim in an article accepted for publication but not yet published in a scholarly journal. According to Norris, the presence of similar traditions among Aboriginal Australians and elsewhere in the world suggests that the name originated before Aboriginal Australians traveled to Australia. This places the origin of the name 100,000 year ago, in his estimation.

Norris bases his claim on the appearance of an Aboriginal story of Orion chasing the Pleiades across the sky, a story similar to one from Greek mythology. He claims that the story is too "embedded" in several Aboriginal Australian cultures (whatever that means) to have been the product of cultural diffusion from Europeans or white Australians. I would doubt that, since stories can and do change very quickly. Consider, for example, the "traditional" Native American stories about dinosaurs and woolly mammoths that were only recorded after paleontologists began unearthing the prehistoric creatures. Or, consider, the claims on Ancient Aliens that oral traditions record visits from spacemen, another set of supposedly traditional stories that did not exist before the 1960s. A hallmark of oral history is its adaptation, revising and rewriting material to meet modern needs. To prove a story is 100,000 years old needs more than faith.

Norris also alleges that the Seven Sisters usually appear as six stars in the modern era due to the brightness of the star Atlas, which sometimes--though he concedes not always--masks nearby Pleione. He claims that 100,000 years ago they were farther apart and more obviously two stars.

Live Science included a fairly convincing debunking of Norris's claims:
While noting that it's a "fun and evocative idea," astronomer and archaeo-historian Bradley Schaefer of Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge, who was not involved in the work, did not think the explanation likely.

"Humans are humans," so they will populate the sky with male and female figures. By chance alone, about half the time, you would expect a given constellation to be associated with men, and half the time with women. Which means that "about one-quarter of that time, Orion will be masculine and the Pleiades will be female," Schaefer said. 

Given the huge number of traditional stories, simple coincidences between any given two cultures are likely to crop up, Schaefer said. He also pointed out that the Norris paper used outdated stellar positioning information to model the distance between Pleione and Atlas 100,000 years ago. The correct data places them two times closer during this epoch, meaning there wouldn’t be much significant change in how the constellation appeared to our ancestors. 

25 Comments
Doc rock
2/3/2021 10:03:05 am

Are you sure it is in a journal? It looks more like it is an essay to be included in a festschrift and focusing in "cultural astronomy." The bar is often set lower for chapters in edited volumes and people have more leeway to play around with ideas. The draft I see looks like a short piece in that vein.

Reply
vOD kANOCKERS
2/3/2021 10:42:29 am

So your Hewlett -Packard computer has once more betrayed you? Prithee get thee to a Best Buy.

If humans are generally wired similarly it seems reasonable that statistically, over time and in due course at the end of the day most people would see most "constellations" the same way.

How does Johnny Researcher know what the term was 100,000 years ago?

The earliest *written* mention is in China circa 2350 BC.

Reply
The Rooster
2/3/2021 09:40:13 pm

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/computer-hp-65-programmable-calculator/nasm_A20120307000

🖕😅

Yer off.

❤️

Okay? Who just said a laptop isn't a "calculator"?

Whaaaat?!

Dear me of mine.

Look? HP is as good as the next. I use HP, whenever I can.

They never stopped making good calcs. And no: not being paid to write this, nor do I work for them.

If you must insist on Windows? Gonna be HP. I just would build a box.

Listen? Buttholes?

Yer outta yer league here. Geaux Home.

Of course. J likely can't afford it, and neither can I. The answer for this is Apple. But that's tremendously expensive.

Can we end this?

Reply
Kent
2/4/2021 12:53:08 pm

"And no: not being paid to write this"

If you think anyone thought that there's an issue.

"We're going to rebuild and dominate the calculator market, gentlemen! Welcome to Task Force Rooster. Now if you will look at the printout of slide number one..."

The Rooster
2/4/2021 07:02:16 pm

Goddamnit!

That's funny.

I might be NOT KENT again.

Seriously? You always bring it, KENT.

❤️

The Rooster
2/3/2021 05:37:25 pm

Hehe,

HP calcs landed us on the Moon.

Who knows what HD they put in there? Just sounds like "bad luck" to me.

I would continue with HP, but build my own box, not a laptop, under these circumstances.

Don't short yourself. HP honestly rules. It's a build issue with Windows; or? Yeh, can just get a Chromebook, or go Apple.

Decisions, decisions...

Reply
vOD kANOCKERS
2/3/2021 06:56:44 pm

Yeah, don't think so. The first HP calculator came out in 1968.
The Apollo Guidance Computer was made by Raytheon.
Hidden Figures.
If you build it yourself it's not an HP product.
Their calculator buttons did feel good.

As a kid I used an HP gas chromatograph at work, but friends don't let friends have Corporate repeatedly install defective hard drives because of childhood memories.

Reply
The Rooster
2/4/2021 12:18:21 am

Man!

This subject? It really pisses me off. And you just walked on it.

No. Ya know what, kiddie-pie? Comps suck. There isn't a solution. It's all dirt. Don't try and pull my leg. I'm the "leg-puller". You got 0 on me, Brother.

When it boils down?

You have to make a decision. All this shit sucks. It just comes right down to that. You know it. I know it.

My "daily drivers"? Chrome & L & Apple. And that's a shame. But what we don't do is Windows.

Now? Please? Don't test me.

❤️

Vod Kanockers
2/4/2021 10:26:13 am

@Rooster:

The only way your post makes sense is reading "walked on it" as "got everything right" which of course I did.

People caring about brands and OSs is just sad. People wanting to continue being HP's battered wife is, well...

"A build based on HP, is HP." Well, that is certainly something we can read as .... what the hell are you trying to say?

The Rooster
2/4/2021 01:41:19 pm

Okay,

You got a good point there.

Got to hand it to you, but?

What's sad? It's not happy "1st World Problems" over brands and OSs.

HP is affordable if you must use just about any OS, but especially Windows. That's all. I don't ever buy new hardware. I rescue old hardware. It's a habit, from being a "starving student".

What's sad? Having to learn to remain agile enough with the hard and soft ware just to remain connected and product, because it ALL SUCKS!

That? Is sad.

Having to resign ones self to being "data-raped" by your "cloud o' choice": even sadder. We're still in the early days, here.

I don't even really do CISC platforms. I'm almost entirely RISC.

Anyhow, no point here, really, just rambling.

Have a good one.

❤️

Crash55
2/3/2021 07:38:46 pm

The HP of today is not the same one as a decade ago never mind back in the space race days.

HP calculators are still good but a laptop is not a calculator.

The scientific equipment HP used to make was spun off as Agilent years ago and most of that is now Keysight.

Reply
Crash55
2/3/2021 06:50:20 pm

Following the link to the pre-publication server it looks like a special issue of a journal. Often those have a lower bar for publication.

As for the laptop issue are you using an SSD or a traditional drive? I would go with an SSD drive. Over the years I have seen many issues with HP laptops. Friends have had good luck with Asus and MSI laptops but those were gaming machines

Reply
The Rooster
2/3/2021 09:48:35 pm

Well? That's some good advice^^

The Asus. I personally kicked and stomped an MSI to death. With boots.

That's why a "box", and not a laptop for Windows. You do Apple or Chrome for a laptop. Otherwise: Linux.

A build based on HP, is HP. Just takes a sec. And definitely yes on the SSD.

❤️

Reply
Crash55
2/4/2021 07:33:40 am

As with any PC brand individual experience will vary.

I am guessing Jason wants a laptop. While you can build your own, that isn’t for everyone. I have built many desktops but would never build my own laptop as I want the system level warranty for one.

Besides the mass market brands, the custom builders are an options. Falcon Northwest has a good reputation and warranty but you pay for it. I went with them for my last desktop due to time and the fact I wanted a 3080. I know they have two laptop lines as well.

Anthony G.
2/3/2021 09:35:46 pm

Proving anything regarding ancient astronomy is nearly impossible. Unless there is some underlying practical application, most interpretations appear to be conjecture, sheer speculation and flights of fantasy. There are only a handful of constellations which can be proven to have any form of antiquity. The Pleiades is not one of them. More often than not it is part of Taurus.

Studying works of cartography for the past few years, I have noticed what stars were of practical use to seafarers. Like Cygnus the Swan for instance, and more specifically the Northern Cross asterism part of the constellation.. This grouping of stars has been associated with the Swan since at least 44 BC according to the Dendera Zodiac. Medieval seafarers were using it to navigate from Europe to Vinland here in modern day America. The Northern Cross marked Vinland, and what would become a "Christian Refuge" here in America. The inscription on the Narragansett RuneStone means Cygnus Roseline. The Frius Globe and Mercator Globe gave away the navigational secret by marking the Star, Deneb and labeling "Cauda Cygni". Tail of the Swan. We know this star icon marks the 45th Parallel. It has been calculated on both the Frius and Mercator Globes. As some may know this is part of the Summer Triangle. The labels were pretty much illegible until I was able to bring them out with my cell phone. I've been able to digitally revive maps as old as a thousand years. It is an extreme privilege to be the first person to see something since the Crafter and original owner who've been dead for anywhere from 400 to a thousand years. It's my understanding many of these museums, Libraries, and private institutions are very excited with my work. All done on a cell phone in Kansas. I still haven't wrapped my mind around it all yet. I can't wait to be able to afford a computer again. I can't wait to work with a bigger screen.

Sucks that you're having so much trouble with electronics. I still have the stereo that I received as a Christmas gift in 1986. The five disc CD player attachment came along my sophomore year of high school. I can hook my iPod up to it. In fact I still have the first version of the iPod and it still works. My wife accidentally knocked my laptop off the table, causing the disk drive to completely shoot out the side and disconnected the wireless internet adapter. It still works, I just can't do what I want to with it.

There could be some environmental condition you're overlooking. Possibly too much humidity. Some friends of mine had a roommate with OCD. He was constantly putting bleach into air purifiers that ran constantly. My friend's electronics were crapping out all the time. Good luck on finding a quality replacement. Surely you can afford it with your book deal. Don't skimp. More often than not, you get what you pay for. From my own experience, make sure no one can trip over the cord.

Reply
vOD kANOCKERS
2/4/2021 10:45:49 am

That is some William Smith level nonsense.

"There are only a handful of constellations which can be proven to have any form of antiquity. The Pleiades is not one of them."

The earliest *written* mention is *still* in China circa 2350 BC.

You're making the standard mistake of thinking that constellations are actual THINGS, rather than just patterns imposed by the human wiring and agreed upon by consensus. For example, in the west we don't have the Greater and Lesser Literary Gods. You also make the mistake of confusing stars with constellations.

"It's my understanding many of these museums, Libraries, and private institutions are very excited with my work."

I'm thinking more "men in white with butterfly nets" or Autocorrect changed "bothered by" to "excited with".

Reply
Anthony G.
2/4/2021 07:06:39 pm

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11JNtSick3JODIKso9vOwrWoX6xml2LIY/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rYYyNLDkDjHiukUZvVoocnTI15rt4Jjv/view?usp=sharing

These are just two samples. Everything has been posted for free on Facebook at the Phippsburg History Center's page. I will forgive your attempted insult. William Smith is batshit insane. I'm not talking about a credit card and toothpick test. I was attempting to show how a broken computer can lead one to use a cell phone instead. By doing so, opening up a whole new world unseen for hundreds of years. Between the zoom capabilities of the Phippsburg History Center's computer and my cellphone, we have been able to revive maps to their original condition, and show the badass skill level of the miniaturist artists creating these cartographical works of art. We are basically teaching these people how to read the maps, and some globes that they own. We have even been able to undo a bad 40-year-old restoration on a water damaged work of cartography. I have to admit, I impressed myself on that one. More impressed with the designers of my cell phone than anything else.

[I'm thinking more "men in white with butterfly nets" or Autocorrect changed "bothered by" to "excited with".]

I believe the majority of the people dealt with have been women. I've learned I no longer have the ability to read German or French and have to rely on Google translate. I also have to rely on Google translate for the Italian, Spanish, and various other languages spoken by the map's curators, or owners. They all seem happy. From Great Britain, Spain, France, Italy and points in between.

Please do not compare me to any batshit insane pseudoscientists, or any other purveyor of bullshit. I use a Motorola Z not a credit card and toothpick.

vOD kANOCKERS
2/5/2021 01:43:35 pm

Sorry for rightfully being so dismissive of you but you are as boastful as Anthony Warren (he was big on using his cellphone rather than the appropriate tool too) and Phippsburg = Patrick Shakleton. And you're talking astronomy bullshit like Anthony Warren.

Again, sorry, but you sound like a buffoon.

Anthony G.
2/5/2021 07:00:11 pm

I am not talking "bullshit". The Narragansett RuneStone has been solved. Cygni Roseline. Scoff if you wish. The Phippsburg History Center, and Anthony have started a wave. Don't be the awkward guy that stands up after the wave has passed you by. I haven't even mentioned the relic church found by the Spanish.

https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Ffile%2Fd%2F1RaNW8z0MSTp31XJBiYlxq0GRBSdr07Ff%2Fview%3Fusp%3Dsharing%26fbclid%3DIwAR1N58NvNLBbtPfrVdSO-AektEAz2oErSFnqlXwW8Q6lLiAJyCfnY_z5qHI&h=AT3xPMn7T5VSUcy8LZmUG0bDDeFyEM5XoT_mTf-HdbNrKWYAKYNzhW9sdqDarPlmKGkbstX-u64t0M90FiEWmfaDdrjhpJXmhV3cWZaFGCVzyNy-39U1RPPb5e1Ap2rBqirrTgoWqVk7V1zJbpV3

Bezalel
2/3/2021 09:58:41 pm

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/ken-ham-complains-pbs-documentary-focuses-too-much-on-stupid-parts-of-ark-encounter-and-creationism#comments


The fascination with ancient cultures using astronomy and myth-making to create a practical calendar, especially with the Pleiades and Orion harkens back at least 150 years, as referenced in my comment 5th March 2020 (link above).

Robert G Haliburton hypothesized that Pleiades and Orion observers originated the elaborate death/resurrection myth from the Southern Hemisphere (Australia) prior to the Egyptians doing the same (Osiris killed on "17th Athyr" which is full moon near mid November) from the northern hemisphere thousands of years later.
Month of November was central, and was a spring month in the south.

Many reasons why this is interesting, one of which is the possibility of the myth originating in Australia (100,000 years seems a stretch) and eventually migrating north....but the fact remains that mid November is when Pleiades culminates at midnight and is close to "straight up" overhead depending on latitude.

First 3 days of the festival of the dead (Australia, possibly South America too) start near Halloween, and the other 2 subsequent days being much later co-opted by the Catholic Church as All Saints Day and All Souls' Day. This potentially explains how a "three day" period was moved from November ("spring" in Southern Hemisphere) to March/April ("spring" in northern hemisphere) but thousands of years later.

From Australia/South America eventually to Palestine, through Egypt/Mexico.

Reply
T. Franke link
2/4/2021 08:45:03 am

Examples like this appear now more frequently, as we can see. Somehow, the aboriginates inspire this. Errr no, not the aboriginates, but the view on the aboriginates. They are attributed (by whom?) with kind of supernatural capacities. And questioning the aboriginates is kind of a sacrilege (for whom?). Would it be possible to see these misinterpretations of the aboriginates' capacities as a backfiring of exaggerated minority politics, identity politics?

Reply
Paul
2/4/2021 12:09:02 pm

Not much worth commenting on lately. Don't much care what a pattern in the sky is called 100000 years ago.
As for the computer, been using them a long time, IBM's, Apple's and mostly HP's. Only had one hard drive crash and that was because the thing was dropped. Maybe should look at a line conditioner and battery backup. You have also mentioned a few electric problems in the past. I know, unsolicited advice is worth what it is.

Reply
vOD kANOCKERS
2/4/2021 02:30:25 pm

You don't see it as problematic that someone claims to know what something was called one lakh years ago, well before the aborigines moved to and settled Australia?

Reply
Paul
2/4/2021 03:41:43 pm

To put it simply, no. A liar is still a liar and don't have time for chasing every fantasy that comes along.

The Rooster
2/4/2021 03:15:48 pm

K?

Let's do something about this.

Captain J?

You think you'd be better off on Apple? Or are you feeling stuck in "Windows Land"?

Only curious.

Reply

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