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Creationists Attack!

8/17/2013

18 Comments

 
I certainly hope that no one here reads all of the comments on every blog post I’ve put up over the past three years, but all of them get sent to me and I’ve noticed some trends. Over the past two weeks, for some reason my blog has been inundated with creationists who are exceedingly upset about my posts, particularly about Ancient Aliens. This come as something of a surprise to me since I rarely write much about evolution or cosmology. I am not a biologist or a physicist and can’t really do justice to the finer points of the science. Except for when the ancient astronaut theorists propose alien genetic engineering, it isn’t even relevant to most of what I discuss here, and at any rate I would have thought creationists would oppose ancient astronauts since the ancient astronaut nonsense blatantly contradicts biblical fundamentalism.

But I’m wrong.

I’ve gotten weird comments from creationists who seem to see ancient astronaut speculators as fellow combatants in the war against Darwin. And then there are the terrible ones who are apparently Christian in everything but the spirit of generosity and goodwill.

The following is an edited comment left by a creationists last night, which I have altered to remove vulgar personal attacks, remove racist faux-Ebonics (because, of course, anything one disagrees with must be associated with racial minorities), and to shorten its excessive length. The creationist is reacting to part of my review of Ancient Aliens S04E10 “Aliens and Dinosaurs” where I wrote “Prior to the nineteenth century, people believed in all manner of gigantic, imaginary beasts, not least of which were the biblical Leviathan and Behemoth, which creationists often wrongly call dinosaurs.”

Wow, idiot. So no matter how many eyewitnesses tell stories of seeing giant sea creatures, and no matter how much archeological evidence, which includes countless amounts of fossils on dry land masses, including up on the mountains, including those giants found buried on a mountain top, moron Jason the God-hater here just pretends no one’s ever said anything about any extremely large creatures. What an idiot. […] Learn to listen, Jason, instead of convenient[ly] ignoring, like the Ancient Aliens idiots, what doesn’t fit into your feelings-based version of reality. And learn what logical fallacies [are] already, your credit-thieving atheist friends already collected extensive lists for you to read.

I don’t really follow this, to be honest. Since when are facts based on feelings? The creatures Leviathan and Behemoth, as described in Job, do not match any known animal, though Behemoth is frequently argued to be inspired by a hippopotamus. Even if you want to identify Behemoth with a dinosaur, this entirely depends on Job 40:17, where the usual translation says his tail sways like a cedar and thus like a sauropod dinosaur. But Stephen Mitchell says this line can also be read as referring to his penis becoming as erect as cedar when seen in combination with the rest of the verse, referencing the creature’s “stones,” which the King James version translated as “thighs” but are otherwise testicles.

Since Isaiah 27:1 says that Leviathan is still alive under the sea and will be until Judgment Day, the creationists can prove us all wrong by going out and finding our friend Leviathan. He’s got to be around here somewhere, unless of course the Biblical description is wrong, as fellow creationist Darek Isaacs worried about Revelation’s dragon earlier this week.

But even if Leviathan were a real creature, how does that translate into the reality of other “extremely large creatures,” or to such creatures as proof of creationism? Theoretically, there is only one Behemoth and one Leviathan mentioned, and other unrelated creatures would not therefore be proof of these two. Eyewitnesses have indeed seen large sea monsters, which Henry Lee explained more than 120 years ago were usually the result of sightings of whales, narwhals, giant squid, etc.—all of which are very large and very real. Yes, too, fossils of sea monsters have been found “on dry land,” though again these are long-extinct sea creatures whose bones the Greeks and Romans often mistook for more recent monsters. Some ended up on mountaintops due to the uprising of land due to plate tectonics, another science creationists are not fond of. If you don’t believe in geology or paleontology, there isn’t any way to profitably discuss fossil evidence. That, of course, is the whole point: If you are a fundamentalist, you are essentially (if I may blaspheme) enacting the apocryphal reply of the Caliph Omar in response to a question of what to do with the books in the Library of Alexandria: “If these books agree with the Koran, they are useless; if they disagree, they are pernicious: in either case, they ought to be destroyed.”

This is the problem with fundamentalist efforts to convince the secular of creationism: They want to appeal to the authority of science, but only selectively, accepting that fossils exist, but not their age; that the bones represent lost species, but not that sequences of such bones display evolution. But such cherry-picking is par for the course among fundamentalists.

One-third of Americans claim that they believe the Bible is literally true and must be taken as true word-for-word (and depending on what tradition you belong to, your Bible will have different books in it—which must make for fun times when deciding which truths are true!). Of those Americans, virtually none actually lives by that claim. Otherwise we would hardly have a stitch of clothing left in America, thanks to the ubiquitous cotton-poly blend (Leviticus 19:19), nor would newspapers be littered with the horoscopes that nearly one third of Americans believe to be true (Leviticus 19:26), nor hotel conference rooms jammed with psychics helping good Christian men and women talk to their dead relatives (Leviticus 19:31).

Let me say this to the creationists complaining on my blog that I hate God, am cursed by God, or am otherwise hellbound: Follow the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:5-6 literally:

When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Otherwise, if you feel compelled to pray about my debunking of ancient astronauts in public, you are welcome to call up Michael Cremo, who also hates evolution as much as you do, and you can debate whether Yahweh or Krishna is behind it all, since Cremo is a Vedic (Hindu) creationist and also supports Ancient Aliens. He believes evolution is a conspiracy foisted upon the Hindus to perpetuate British rule in India. Oh, right: Cremo also believes humans are millions or billions of years old. You’ll have to work out between yourselves how he uses the exact same evidence as you to reject young earth creationism and instead argue for an earth (and humankind) many, many times older than modern science suggests.

He is far more dangerous than I since he had major media coverage, popular books, and influence among the ancient astronaut-alternative history crowd. Have fun with that one.
18 Comments
Tara Jordan
8/17/2013 08:13:12 am

Today,Creationism is essentially the product of Evangelical Protestantism (not even real Christians).According to the Catholic Church & the Vatican,there is no conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution.Catholics went as far as creating a new concept which reconciles the scientific explanation to the Origin of Species & theology(Theistic evolution).The Evangelicals are swimming at the bottom of the gene pool,& are considered heretical by traditionalists.We shouldn't waste our time with these obscurantists.Evangelical Protestantism is to Christianity what Salafism & Wahabism are to Islam.

Reply
Aaron Adair link
8/17/2013 12:14:23 pm

The entity we call young-earth creationism (YEC) is actually not so much a product of evangelicalism but of Seventh-Day Adventism. That history is well demonstrated by Ronald Numbers in the book "The Creationists." So, when you run into a YEC, call them a heretic and an Adventist. I wonder if that will work better than throwing fossils around, a la Lewis Black : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKA1UNAu-dc

Reply
Tara Jordan
8/17/2013 06:03:05 pm

Seventh-Day Adventism is a Protestant denomination & Protestantism is a refuge for individuals who express anti social behavior & quasi insane belief systems(creationism,speaking in tongues,snake handling,faith healing.televangelism,megachurch movement etc...).I am atheist but religious people do not bother me as long as they keep their spirituality for themselves.When they try to force their lunacy upon the rest of us & on secular society, I feel I have to react,but usually I am pretty tolerant. I consider they have the right to believe whatever they want.For me,the Ancient Aliens crowd,the new agers,the alternative history aficionados are far more dangerous.They are infecting the very fabric of modern societies,perverting the essence of intelligence & polluting the minds of millions individuals with pseudo scientific-historical garbage.A secular society can deal with religious interferences,there is an extensive corpus of laws that regulates & prevents organized religions from meddling with the State.There is no defensive system to prevent societies from being contaminated with pseudo science & fake science.Scott Wolter is far more dangerous than Pat Robertson...

Clint Knapp
8/17/2013 09:36:22 am

Growing up I was made to attend a Baptist church and the pastor was not a fan of my interest in paleontology and myth. In an attempt to sway me from this obviously heretical course a book outlining how dinosaurs and man had always lived together was lent to me. I read it, and even at 11 years old I knew it was a bunch of rubbish.

Whale carcasses hauled up by fishermen and purported to be plesiosaurs, obviously modern black and white drawings of anklyosaurs pulling Chinese carts around, and a bunch of rambling about the aforementioned Leviathan and Behemoth were just not enough to convince 11 year old me- who had the entire Zoobook collection on pre-history and felt he was an expert because of this.

As a result of that failed, laughable attempt by a Texan Baptist pastor (who most certainly didn't live a very Christian life the other six days of the week; unless spousal/child abuse was a Commandment I missed...), I've never been able to take any of these people seriously.

Creationists, AA talking heads, conspiracy theorists, alien abduction "survivors", and our good friends the historical revisionists all seem to share the same fundamental personality traits, and as we see all to often one typically overflows into the other. It's a rather disturbing bit of Orwellian double-think that these sad pariahs of reason have to overcome to both believe in a single creator deity who made us from dust and in the same breath claim we were genetically manipulated into our current form from inferior stock by a savior race of aliens- who just may have been giants who communed with the lizard people living underground to preserve their holy bloodline in the New World.

Either these people are truly ignorant of the contradictions and misrepresentations they spew day in and day out and truly believe anything at all in attempt to make sense of the big scary world they don't understand... or they're a bunch of attention whores and liars out to make a buck. I'm looking at you, Giorgio.

I don't envy you the task of having to slog through the same old claims time and time again, Jason, but I do appreciate the effort. The folks making the claims may ignore the truth as long as they like, but at least it's out there to be examined honestly and we don't have to pay $150+ to hear it in a PowerPoint presentation.

Reply
The Other J.
8/19/2013 10:46:13 pm

"Creationists, AA talking heads, conspiracy theorists, alien abduction "survivors", and our good friends the historical revisionists all seem to share the same fundamental personality traits, and as we see all to often one typically overflows into the other."

I think I posited this somewhere on this site before, but I've wondered if there isn't a stronger link between AA/AH theorists and Protestantism. Both are concerned with discarding or ignoring previous scholarship, methodology, and other established work for personal reflection and experience. Both also tend to reject that which would contradict or otherwise challenge their personally-constructed world view (although Catholicism isn't immune from that, but seems more able to change positions if the evidence is overwhelming). And both tend to preemptively attack perceived threats (academics, Catholics, science, Jews, etc.) in a way which deflects attention, including their own, away from problems in their own arguments. It almost seems like a psychological disposition that influences a worldview, but that may sound more determinative than it really is.

I used to think that last quality was more particular to the early decades of a movement -- like early Puritans finding witches just down the street. Now I'm not so sure, with the way certain Protestant elements have attacked education (evolution) and civil rights (gay marriage).

I'm probably full of it, and this is just bad pop psychologizing. But it's hard for me not to see those commonalities there once I've recognized them. I'm sure someone from the other side of the fence would accuse skeptics of the same flaws, but I think that displays a misunderstanding of skepticism.

Reply
kennethos
8/17/2013 09:57:51 am

Jason, welcome to the fringe of creation that those of us holding to special, divine creation of the natural order, have to deal with!
I know Mike Heiser has dealt with some of these folks...who find it easier to insult those they disagree with (like you), rather than think their way through these matters. You may be an atheist or agnostic, but you're seeking the truth, which not all creationists do... sometimes they're seeking something to back up their view, instead of what ever is true, which fits with their view.
I've had many debates/discussions with those holding to a literal 6-day creation view (which I no longer hold, and haven't for years), and typically, it's about much more than one's view of Scripture. So folks are attacking anyone they view as threatening their view, which threatens their understanding of God. Sorry you're getting the flak!

Reply
Dave Lewis
8/17/2013 02:02:19 pm

I wish I could express my opinions more eloquently like others who post here.

Around thirty years ago I made the conscious decision to be what I then considered to be a Christian and to believe the Bible literally. As I read the Bible daily I experienced cognitive dissonance. The the creation story (among others) conflicted with what I learned in science courses in college. I believed anyone who didn't agree with my rather fundamentalist viewpoint to be a minion of Satan. This experience makes it easy for me to understand how the guy that attacked Jason C feels.

The more I studied the Bible, the more questions I had. I understood the point of most of the New Testament excepting the last book of the NT. The OT was a different matter. I was really confused by the OT. I decided to invest the time to try to understand the OT. I started reading books by historians of the Bible. My favorites are Bart Ehrman, John Dominic Crossan and Amy-Jill Levine. At some point I decided that the Bible didn't happen, but is true. I'm not sure who said that first; it certainly wasn't me.

Here is the big dilemma I faced..... I didn't have Jesus to forgive me anymore. I realized that I have to take personal responsibility for everything I do and say. I try not to hurt anyone's feelings but sometimes I fail at that.

I've learned quite a bit about the OT. I understand some of the motives of its writers.

The fundamentalist's attacks rarely bother me now. I recognize that the cognitive dissonance they are experiencing is making them venomous.

Dave Lewis

Reply
kennethos
8/17/2013 05:04:40 pm

@Dave:
It can be a challenge to reconcile certain views of origins with differing views of science, especially if people bring in baggage unaware. I've learned more about these areas, and how better to understand them, since finishing grad school, as opposed to during. I've found Jason's work to be valuable in some of the "X-Files" type areas, as I've found Mike Heiser's "Naked Bible" blog helpful on the theology side. I'd encourage you, if interested, to explore those resources. It's some fascinating research and learning.

Reply
Dave Lewis
8/19/2013 05:22:26 pm

I enjoy reading Mike Heiser's blog daily.

Dave Lewis
8/17/2013 02:21:05 pm

I recently read an article entitled JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN ASTROLOGY IN LATE ANTIQUITY - A NEW APPROACH by Kocku von Stuckrad in Numen: International Review for the History of Religions, 2000, Vol. 47 Issue 1. The author gives his opinion on how astrology came to be understood by Jewish and Christian monotheists.

Dave Lewis

Reply
Uncle Ron
8/17/2013 02:40:06 pm

Today's newspaper (yes, I still read stuff printed on paper) contains a review of the new book "Zealot", a biography of Jesus Christ, by Reza Aslan. The review written by Lesley Hazelton of the San Francisco Chronicle contains the following:

"Aslan points out that the concept of empirically valid historical reality is a relatively modern one. "It would have been an altogether foreign concept to the gospel writers for whom history was not a matter of uncovering facts, but of revealing truths.'"

This is something you run up against all the time, Jason, and not just in the gospels. And, yes, after I discovered your blog I went back and read every entry and every comment, in order. But then, I don't get out much.
U.R.

Reply
Geoff link
8/18/2013 01:40:33 pm

Fortunately, not all Christians are crackpots like those who call themselves "creationists". I've posted on my blog before about how these people have commandeered the term "creationist" and turned it into some perverse caricature of the truth.
In reality, anyone who believes that there is a God that ordered the universe is a "creationist". Many of us today believe that if there is a God, there is no way he would create a universe that "appears" old, but isnt.. or in which there is evidence of evolution, but that nothing actually evolves. And there _IS_ evidence, almost overwhelming evidence.
Regardless, a Christian should never be concerned because if there is evolution, God ordered it, if there isnt, God ordered it.. it's really irrelevant.
The funniest response I had was someone telling me that Christians and science can not mix.. Therefore there can be no Christian Scientists because they would find in their "science" that God can not exist.. That person and the "Creationist" should get along quite well together in the mental asylum

Reply
varika
8/18/2013 02:35:57 pm

I've always loved this quote from Robert Heinlein: "There is no conclusive proof of life after death. But there is no evidence of any sort against it. Soon enough you will know--so why fret about it?" It seems pertinent to this discussion. ;-)

Reply
Geoff link
8/18/2013 02:49:54 pm

Varika,
Ironically, if you were someone who believed in reincarnation or some such, fretting about it would be par for the course :P

Tara Jordan
8/18/2013 03:59:43 pm

Varika.I am quite confused.As a "Pagan" how can you can reconcile your own religious beliefs with scientific materialism?.

Only Me
8/19/2013 12:09:20 am

Let me preface this by saying I was bored. I checked out the comments on some of the AA reviews following the release of this post....holy deep-fried pork butts. I didn't know you could both feel and hear your own brain cells dying, until I read those comments.

I've congratulated you before on your ability to do it, but seriously, Jason, how can you stare into the mouth of madness these people come from without losing your own marbles? It terrifies me that these people can vote, drive, own guns, have children, etc.

Reply
The Other J.
8/19/2013 10:12:54 pm

"I felt a great disturbance in the Brain, as if millions of neurons suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."

Reply
Only Me
8/20/2013 03:12:01 am

Ha! I see that "wit is strong with this one."


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