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Did Aelius Aristides Record Spanish Commerce with Atlantis in the Second Century?

1/31/2017

41 Comments

 
​As many of you likely saw, Georgeos Díaz-Montexano, formerly known as Cuban researcher Jorge Díaz Sanchez, replied to my review of his appearance on National Geographic Channel’s Atlantis Rising documentary. In his reply in the comments section of my blog post, he alleged that there were many reasons that I did not understand the full scope of his argument, mostly revolving around the idea that the documentary failed to capture the complexity and depth of his reasoning. He directed interested parties to his multivolume published works, in Spanish, and to the single-volume English summary he published as a tie-in to profit from his appearance on Nat Geo. Needless to say, he did not offer free access to his evidence, but rather expects us to pay him to hear it. Given the quality of his response, it would seem to be a waste of money.
​That sounds mean, of course, but in his comments Díaz-Montexano managed to contradict himself shamelessly. He claimed, for one thing, that “I have never been a fanatical believer in Atlantis, nor do I claim that Atlantis—like described in Plato—has existed.” Nevertheless, his evidence is and remains drawn from the very texts--Timaeus and Critias—he claims not to believe. For example, “The bull is a main symbol and an attribute of the god Poseidon, and is the main animal to which the Atlanteans worshiped, as we see in Plato’s description of Critias about the historical legend of Atlantis.” Both things cannot be true. Plato’s Atlantis cannot be fictitious and also an accurate description of the past. He elides this by saying his efforts are literary rather than historical, and yet he goes in search of physical evidence nonetheless.
 
Díaz-Montexano directed me to an article on his website giving the chronology of the Atlantis he says never existed. This, too, is an exercise in bizarre special pleading and motivated reasoning. Let’s take a look at what he has to say.
 
The article starts out badly, with Díaz-Montexano claiming linguistic expertise by dint of his involvement with Barry Fell’s Epigraphic Society, by which he alleges that he can translate ancient inscriptions, which magically confirm parts of Plato’s story in ways that no one else has ever confirmed. In his comments on my blog, he alleged that he could read some markings as “Semitic” (which is not actually a language but a language family, one not tied to a specific script) and a description of a sinking island.
 
In the article proper, he asserts that Atlantis was destroyed between 2600 and 1550 BCE, a date range that does not conform to Plato’s estimate of 9600 BCE. Nevertheless, he also asserts that we know the cause of the destruction could not be volcanic because Plato does not mention volcanoes. His justification for this is that he reads the reference to nine thousand years in the Timaeus to state that the story of Atlantis starts in 9600 BCE, and therefore he can end it whenever he fancies. That’s all well and good, but it’s contradicted by the clear statement in the Critias that “nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them” (trans. Benjamin Jowett). In other words, Plato makes plain that the end not the start of the story is fixed at 9,570 BCE. Despite this clear statement, Díaz-Montexano places this war between 2700 and 1550 BCE.
 
Next, he etymologizes the name of the king of Atlantis, Atlas, as “the one supporting, upraising, or upholding (the sky),” a claim that, while not indefensible, is far from certain. In the past, “Atlas” was thought to derive from a reconstructed Proto-Indo-European word meaning “to uphold,” but there is great dispute over this. Many linguists suspect the word is actually non-Greek in origin, perhaps related to the Berber word ádrār, meaning mountain, or to a pre-Greek word from before Indo-European contact. In short, we don’t know, and neither does Díaz-Montexano, certainly not with the degree of confidence needed to identify this Atlas—a human son of Poseidon—with the Titan of the same name and thus with the Egyptian god Shu, the god of cool air. In the interpretatio graeca, the Titan Atlas was identified with the Egyptian Shu, but the Atlas of Plato is not the Titan, so the correlation does not hold, even when Díaz-Montexano alleges that Solon (Plato’s alleged source) translated Egyptian names to their Greek equivalent in telling the story of Atlantis from Egyptian records.
 
Nevertheless, despite claiming the story to be a Greek translation of an Egyptian original, Díaz-Montexano proceeds to use Greek pseudo-historic chronology—itself a product of Classical and Hellenistic efforts to merge together contradictory folktales and myths—and antediluvian Biblical chronology from Genesis—another fantasy!—to fix the date of Atlantis:
The end of Atlantis can be established at some point within the time frame that goes, rounded, from 2.600 to 1.600 BC, for the simple reason that the catastrophic flood that destroys the primitive Athens is supposed to occur just before the Deucalion’s deluge (epi Deukalionos), after the Atlanteans had been defeated by the Athenians, which is dated around 1.530 BC, according to the most reliable Greek written sources. All the Classical sources agree that the cataclysm prior to Deucalion occurred in Ogygus or Ogyges times. Ogygian flood has been associated – since ancient times- to the biblical cataclysm known as “Noah’s flood” which has been dated by biblical exegetes, in round figures, at some point between 2.500 and 2.300 BC.
First, there are not Greek sources that record a war between Atlantis and Athens before Plato invented it. None place it in 1530 BCE. The flood of Ogyges has indeed been compared to that of Noah from time to time (though Deucalion’s more frequently is), but its date is not given as 2500 BCE. Sextus Julius Africanus, the first Christian chronographer to try his hand at the game, placed it in 1793 BCE but thought it different than the older flood of Noah, occurring instead during the Exodus. This alone is proof that we cannot automatically accept the flood of Ogyges as that of Noah on the authority of some imagined universal ancient association.
 
He alleges that part of Atlantis still existed as late as the second century CE on the authority of Aelius Aristides, who in his Orations (no. 36, “The Egyptian Discourse”) contradicts an older Greek account by the geographer Euthymenes of Masslia (c. 500 BCE) about a great freshwater river Ocean by referencing an island opposite to Spain which many traveled back and forth to. “And neither can the fishermen at Gadira nor those who cross over to the great island opposite Spain be heard to say that the outside sea is fresh-water” (trans. C. A. Behr). Aristides meant for his Greco-Roman audience to understand him; this is not some secret island. He is referring rather clearly to opposite side of Iberia from Gadira (Cadiz), which means the north. The great island must be the British Isles.
 
Aristides, for what it’s worth, hated Euthymenes and accused him of fabricating his whole account of rounding the horn of Africa and discovering the source of the Nile in the River Ocean.
 
The long and short of it is that Díaz-Montexano cherry-picks at will, just like every other Atlantis claimant.
 

41 Comments
Bob Jase
1/31/2017 12:16:10 pm

"Georgeos Díaz-Montexano, formerly known as Cuban researcher Jorge Díaz Sanchez"

What is it with fringers that they have to take multiple identities?

Reply
Raparee
2/1/2017 01:55:43 pm

It's so when they are discovered to be frauds, the shame doesn't extend to their families.

Reply
Only Me
1/31/2017 12:18:41 pm

At least he finally clarified his position. He really and truly doesn't believe in PLATO'S VERSION of Atlantis because metalworking and architecture.

So, in his mind, Atlantis is real, but Plato's description is impossible for a Bronze Age civilization. That's why he's looking for an Atlantis in the vein of Graham Hancock: a lost civilization, its existence preserved in cultural traditions spanning millennia.

Reply
DaveR
1/31/2017 01:19:00 pm

Georgeos/Jorge writes in a manner that is easily transparent. It appears he believes using many multi-syllable words makes him sound more authoritative. I understand he may not believe the Atlantis of Plato, but since Plato is the original author of the tale, where is Jorge getting his information? From scribbles that he alone can translate?

Reply
Tom
1/31/2017 02:01:59 pm

Since Aristides regarded this "great island" as being in the North and Mr Diaz-Montexano infers this was Atlantis then obviously we British were the genuine Atlanteans.
Can we now expect an influx of tourists eager to explore?
We could really do with the cash.

Reply
DaveR
1/31/2017 02:10:03 pm

I thought Brexit was going to solve all of your problems, just like Trump is going to solve all of ours.


Just in case, I'm making a joke.

Reply
V
2/1/2017 02:15:40 am

Will you take some refugees fleeing a fascist dictator carrot, instead? I promise you, we might cost a bit in the beginning but we'll make it up to you once we integrate into your society. You won't even know we're there. Unless you mention football.

Reply
Al
1/31/2017 03:54:41 pm

He is denigrating Celt-Iberian culture. All those petroglyphs were made by Celt-Iberians not fake Atlanteans.

Reply
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/1/2017 08:40:58 am

Sad thing is I think even with a full post you used only about a third the words he did. Be fine if he'd actually said anything but...

Reply
Frank
2/2/2017 03:27:31 pm

The long and short of it is that Díaz-Montexano cherry-picks at will, just like every other Atlantis claimant.

My dear Jason, does "every other" include all Atlantis claimants?

Does this mean that you have carefully, and specifically perused all of the most popular claims of an Atlantis found hypotheses? Is this inclusion of knowing them to be all just cherry-picking for "every other" Atlantis hypotheses, due to your special skills and extreme and wonderful knowledge of Plato's works?

Just how many of these claims have you debunked, officially?
In other words, how many notches have you scratched on your six-shooters? Must be many, I assume, as you are quick to the draw. And we will nott even mention your accuracy, as reason is your aim. And as we know, Plato was a very reasonable man, not to mention that some of you intellectuals have crowned him as the father of logic. After all, did not Aristotle, freely, sit at Plato's feet for over 20 years of his adult life? And the scholars of the past, and also the present, cannot place enough laurels on Aristotle's head, which goes further to say that his master and teacher, Plato, had to have had a bigger head, if we are to place more leafs on his head than on Aristotle.

And you, Jason, seem to want even more lauding from those disciples of yours, here on your blog. I too sit at your feet. However, I must recommend some type of cream for you, as I seem to sense an unpleasant odor emanating from them. Were you by any chance an athlete? Perhaps just a locker-room attended, as one is apt to catch athletes-feet fungus without being a real athlete, as all is needed is to walk around barefooted in those hallowed grounds to get infected. And you have been infected with the worst strain of all. This strain is incurable, and is very chronic as it will not abate one single minute. This requires constant scratching on your part. However, the scratching, even though it brings a slight, and temporary relief, if one is not careful to "wash their hands" often, it will spread. Now, as I sit at your feet, I notice that you are also grabbing your groin area a bit too often. This can only mean that you have not washed your hands carefully, and now you also got jock-itch. But I also see that you are also scratching your head now. What are we to make of this?

Well, besides not having good hygiene habits, your not being polite, and are being very vicious in continuing your scratching of others' groins. Because, like a pit bull's locked jaws, you are not wanting to let go of the friendly and polite hand that Georgeos has put forth to you in wanting to defend himself from your insults. Criticism of the documentary is one thing, but the attacks on the man are another. Why keep antagonizing the man? You made your point to your readers, which seems to be a success to them, especially when you have impressed Mr. T Franke, a very long-time seeker of Atlantis. A scholar of the first degree when it comes to Atlantis. Why he has a library on the subject, along with any of the cited references within them, which can rival any other in the world. And besides, being that he has the command of seven or more languages, he needs no one's else translations, as he can read the classical Greek, Latin, and Egyptian literature in the original mother tongue. And can, if he wanted, give us his own translations. Too bad that his language skills do not include the Atlantean tongue also, the one known to the Egyptians priests who translated the Atlanteans' names into Egyptian, and which Solon translated their meaning back into Greek. Then Mr. Franke could have easily told you what the name Atlas really means. But wait, he has, I think! Well, at least I think that he has given us two or three different hypotheses on Atlantis. And that makes him an Atlantis seeker, and one belonging to the group, "every other."

Now, Jason, why don't you give Georgeos' hand a rest, and unlock your jaws. Unless, perhaps, with these persistent insults, you are expecting to bait Simcha or even Mr. Cameron in extending theirs, so you can also bite them too?

Why don't you bite on your admirer's hand, Mr. Franke, since he has challenged you indirectly. He thinks he has not cherry-picked, and that no one has debunked his Atlantis. What say you, Jason? Does this "every other" include your paying readers? And trust me, Mr. Franke will be a devilish of a sparring partner for you. He will give you your money's worth!!!!!

Why don't you impress your readers even more with your Platonist knowledge? Mr. Franke will be a sight to see, a regular open book on Plato's Atlantis. Or should I say, that it is his site that is worth seeing? If one goes there, even without knowing the name Plato, for sure, one will come out an expert Atlantean of the first category; a sophist, at least, at any rate.

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T. Franke link
2/2/2017 03:51:57 pm

I do not like this pressing into a quarrel with Jason. The core of my Atlantis thesis is still not published, by the way. So it is naturally not possible to "debunk" it at this moment. What can be put to a test are only the parts already published, serving as foundation of the coming core thesis.

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Jason Colavito link
2/2/2017 03:59:11 pm

I meant every claimant who says he or she has found Atlantis. Since no one has yet found a gigantic island with a ringed city and a bunch of elephants outside the Pillars of Hercules, claimants who say they have found Plato's Atlantis are cherry picking evidence. There is a separate category for those who wish to argue that Plato's story is not 100% true. But once you make that argument, you are no longer searching for the Atlantis of Plato but something else.

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T. Franke link
2/2/2017 04:55:08 pm

Jason, this is a simplistic view of things, and you know this. According to this scheme, Herodot would not talk about Egypt, because his description of Egypt (?) does not fit to the real Egypt. But he *does* talk about Egypt. It is crucial, why and how a story is distorted, in order to decide whether it still talks of a real thing, or not.

Jason Colavito link
2/2/2017 05:40:15 pm

The question, though, is whether one has found the Atlantis *described by Plato* or merely something that one claims was his inspiration for the story. Jacobovici changed the details and claimed it was nevertheless true to Plato. Montexano claimed not to be looking for the Atlantis that Plato described, but then he turned around and tried to find evidence for a subset of the details anyway and claim it as the Atlantis of Plato.

al nika
2/3/2017 02:26:42 am

actually, i have found Atlantis and the story is 100% correct. i read it in ancient Greek (with difficulty of course) and it has nothing to do with the description you just gave Jason. nowhere does it say big island, nowhere does it say outside the pillars, and no where does it say 9k before Solon. i challenge you to find one fact/evidence that shows that Atlantis is not in Malta. i am talking about the megalithic temple builders in Malta of course. i am revealing the location of the city in a month or two.

T. Franke link
2/3/2017 01:50:49 pm

Jason, you are right: Somebody who claims that he found Atlantis "exactly" as Plato described it, or something like this (and indeed: we hear this all the time), then this person has not understood anything of history, philosophy, Plato's intentions, or about possibilities and plausibilities of historical tradition. Yet, "inspiration" (although another valid possibility) could be too less, either.

There is a third possiblity:

That Plato *intended* to talk of a real place, but this real place actually looks differently than Plato thought, because of distortions from the tradition. It will be difficult to base such a thesis on stable ground, but to me it is the most obvious solution considering Plato's open words about the construction of his Atlantis-Athens story, and considering known distortions in other Greek works of the time. This way of thought has much to do with the exploration of the Greeks' and Egyptians' biased views of history and geography and other fields of knowledge, over various stages of historical tradition in various centuries. A big puzzle with thousand pieces. Not solved yet. But a possibility.

Frank
2/3/2017 12:20:14 pm

Gentlemen,

That is the spirit I was intending to arouse. The spirit of friendly confrontation between the better heads. This is the only way that the "truth" can ever come out. And I'm holding to Plato's description 100%. It's like Jason says; It has to be the Atlantis of Plato on every and each detail, or it's no cigar! I meant it's no Atlantis! Can we leave Atlantis down there, whether under mud, or water?

In order that I might make another simile about you. For I know that all pretty young gentlemen like to have pretty similes made about them—as well they may—but I shall not return the compliment. As to my being a torpedo, if the torpedo is torpid as well as the cause of torpidity in others, then indeed I am a torpedo, but not otherwise; for I perplex others, not because I am clear, but because I am utterly perplexed myself. And now I know not where Atlantis is, and you all seem to be in the same case, although some did once perhaps know before you touched on it. However, I have no objection to join with you in the inquiry. And I see that we now have a Maltese bird in the pot, too! But Malta and Sicily are close enough to be one and the same. Or as they say; close enough when playing with marbles! Let us not lose any marbles then, and let the show go on.

Come on Mr. Franke, if anyone can do it, you can for sure. I mean debunk Jason's debunking of you. As Jason said; give us Plato's Atlantis, or don't even mention his name. As your hypothesis, even when published, like Trump's tax records, will be just another ancient civilization, and not Plato's Atlantis.

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T. Franke link
2/3/2017 04:09:27 pm

Frank, is there any ancient description of an ancient place which fits to the place for 100%? There is always a bias, at least in most cases, if not all. So forget your cigar doctrine. What can be done is to show *why* a story was distorted, and that the author really *meant* this place, thus establishing a valid connection between the biased description and the real place.

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Frank
2/4/2017 12:21:42 pm

Thornwald,

Of course not! At least not in the past. Plato is alluding to the future, through the characters in his dialogues.

If you compare these very laws with ours you will find that many of ours are the counterpart of yours as they were in the olden time. In the first place, there is the caste of priests, which is separated from all the others; next, there are the artificers, who ply their several crafts by themselves and do not intermix; and also there is the class of shepherds and of hunters, as well as that of husbandmen; and you will observe, too, that the warriors in Egypt are distinct from all the other classes, and are commanded by the law to devote themselves solely to military pursuits; moreover, the weapons which they carry are shields and spears, a style of equipment which the goddess taught of Asiatics first to us, as in your part of the world first to you. Then as to wisdom, do you observe how our law from the very first made a study of the whole order of things, extending even to PROPHECY............

Anyway, I wanted you to spar with Jason, who is the expert here, not me. I'm just one of the millions waiting for the apple to fall on my head. And apparently, a big apple has landed on your head, as you have a big tall tale of your own on Atlantis, and is much the same as Georgeos'. Or shall we say, cherries, instead of apples?

T. Franke link
2/4/2017 04:17:09 pm

Frank, my ideas about Atlantis are *not* the same as Georgeos'.

Frank
2/5/2017 12:25:41 pm

Thornwald,

I realize that your ideas on Atlantis are not the same as Georgeos', as you two have no agreement as to where Atlantis lies, and, if I recall, your hypothesis of Plato's account is a mixed bag of worms; real but not real, and being a combination of a tale based on some real historical facts that Plato used as a platform to fabricate the details of Atlantis on, so as to give the tale an appearance of verisimilitude. And this is also what most scholars believe. Still, your own "tale" of Plato's tale is one of cherry-picking from Plato's "tree." That is what I meant as to your association with Georgeos. And this cherry-picking from Plato's account of the tale of Atlantis was the core of Jason's article in attacking the NG documentary, and Simcha. And it was not merely a case of just cherry-picking, as Jason also commented, but total outright fabrication and distortion of Plato's writing on Atlantis. I will leave out Jason's criticism of NG for their bad archeology, as it is not pertinent to you.

But why are you seeking out Atlantis? What is that part within you which Plato has stirred, to have made you to apply so much of your life in the pursuit of such a strange tale? And which seems stranger still, when we consider that it's an incomplete story, to boot. Are you an aspirant philosopher who has made Plato's philosophy your pillar and model to fashion your life after? What do you consider as Plato's motive for giving us the tale of Atlantis? Do you think Plato was taking timeout from his busy schedule of philosophy to play a hand in the game of history to amuse himself and his disciples?

We know that Plato had many talents, but I doubt that he was also inspired to wanting to be an historian, much like Herodotus. Which makes one wonder why people would place so much credence on a real Atlantis having existed, when all the other classical historians, older than Plato, like Herodotus, Thucydides, and even Xenophon, another disciple of Socrates and was also a professional soldier, did not give mankind any account of such a tall and addictive tale? Mind you, at its core the tale of Atlantis was a story about an extraordinaire and colossal war to have taken place before history could remember, as it had to be taken from oblivion, and would rival even our modern two world wars. Surely all soldiers would have wanted to study the military tactics and strategies of this epic war of the mighty Atlanteans against all the civilized nations of the Mediterranean basin, especially since the underdog, Ancient Athens, in the end, and alone, with only a force of 20,000 defeated a force of at least a million? President Trump may want to know the particulars of this epic war, since we have similar lopsided odds when it comes to fighting the few thousands of Islamic terrorists, like ISIS. As we of the USA do not want our militarily overwhelming force to face the same kind of defeat at the hands of such a puny, ragtag, and immensely inferior force.

So if Plato knew this Island of Atlantis so well, as to give us such precise measurements down to 100 feet, and 50 stadia for the sea canal, and the measurements of 1, 2, and 3 stadia for the sizes of the 5 circles of land and sea, why could he not also give us a more precise location as to where the continent was located in the Atlantic? After all, only an actual eyewitness with "boots" on the ground on Atlantean soil could have given such minute details of precise measurements, and yet, no specific directions how to get there? Like which cardinal directions to sail towards, how many days sailing/rowing of those triremes did it take from a certain specific point within the Mediterranean, etc.

But you get the idea of what I intend here, don't you? So, tell us, give us a small "trailer,"as we say how about Hollywood movies that have not been released to the public audience yet, if your book is so secretive and are going to patent the salvage rights of all that gold and silver belonging to the Atlanteans' temples and palaces. For, you, surely, will be telling us that you have also found our mythical empire, the wealthiest and most powerful the world has ever known, or ever to be seen again. But wait, does not this definition sound familiar?

Now Atlas had a numerous and honorable family, and they retained the kingdom, the eldest son handing it on to his eldest for many generations; and they had such an amount of wealth as was never before possessed by kings and potentates, and is not likely ever to be again.....

United States. The U.S. is, by any measure, the wealthiest, most powerful and most influential country in the history of the world. Only its brief lifespan keeps it from topping the list. Buoyed by victories in World War I and World War II as the only major power not devastated, and especially after the collapse of the Soviet Union following the Cold War, the U.S. has emerged as the world’s sole superpower.

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T. Franke link
2/5/2017 01:15:32 pm

My name is Thorwald, not Thornwald. And I am not cherrypicking.

You screw up things. But some short answers:

Plato gives the exact location of Atlantis, as he saw it: Directly to the West of Gibraltar, since the mud hinders the ships entering the Atlantic Ocean. The emphasis is on: as he saw it. What is more, Plato himself was aware that this is only a translation, as you can see in Timaeus 24e.

My motivation is to have spent my time with something interesting, and leaving behind me some increase in humankind's knowledge. Among other motivations. You are not my psychiatrist.

How could the wild Germanic tribes defeat three well-trained Roman legions, equipped with most modern weaponry? How could the Russians defeat Napoleon? How could Vietnam defeat the US? How could Athens defeat the Persians? How could the Arabs conquer such a vast empire in such a short time? This all is not so unusual, as many think.

I cannot give you a satisfying trailer. A trailer which satisfies would not be a trailer any more. You have to be patient. Many of your answers are in the dialogue "Republic" since primeval Athens is constructed according to this model, where it lacked the full identity with this model. Plato says this explicitly in the dialogue (Timaeus 26cd). NB: I talk of primeval Athens, not of Atlantis. And I talk of: "as Plato saw it".

The United States resemble more the model from Plato's Laws, highly welcomed by the Roman Cicero, and adopted by early Islam to a certain extent (yes! a long time ago, but they have roots to return back from all the madness). This model is called "Republic". (Though, confusing, the dialogue which does *not* describe a Republic is called "Republic" in modern days.)

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Frank
2/5/2017 04:57:18 pm

So I gave you an extra n with a "keystroke." But perhaps, speaking of being your psychiatrist, it may have been inadvertently, but consciously, since you are acting as if I placed a thorn on your side.

Why do you say that I'm not your mental physician? Why, to ask questions one has to be a psychiatrist? I was simply asking a few personal questions, so as to get an idea if your interest in Plato was strictly, like most Atlantis seekers, only for this myth, or if you had other interests relating to Plato's philosophy, in general. Apparently, from your reply, I see that you are familiar with Plato's other work, and so I have received part of my reply from you. But are you a philosopher more than an anthropologist/historian? And what makes you think that you can increase man's knowledge when Socrates himself could not? Some of them were priests and priestesses, who had studied how they might be able to give a reason of their profession: there have been poets also, who spoke of these things by inspiration, like Pindar, and many others who were inspired. And they say—mark, now, and see whether their words are true—they say that the soul of man is immortal, and at one time has an end, which is termed dying, and at another time is born again, but is never destroyed. And the moral is, that a man ought to live always in perfect holiness. 'For in the ninth year Persephone sends the souls of those from whom she has received the penalty of ancient crime back again from beneath into the light of the sun above, and these are they who become noble kings and mighty men and great in wisdom and are called saintly heroes in after ages.' The soul, then, as being immortal, and having been born again many times, and having seen all things that exist, whether in this world or in the world below, has knowledge of them all; and it is no wonder that she should be able to call to remembrance all that she ever knew about virtue, and about everything; for as all nature is akin, and the soul has learned all things.

And I did not "recall" about all that mud impeding vessel traffic through the strait. The last time I sailed through, from both directions, I did not have to wash down all that MUD from the keel. Europe and Africa are separated by 7.7 nautical miles (14.3 km; 8.9 mi) of ocean at the strait's narrowest point. The Strait's depth ranges between 300 and 900 meters; 980 and 2,950 ft).

And as far as your psychoanalysis of the big losers, you have given only a past tense prognosis for some, which through history we recall, but you also have some wrong results too. But you never gave a diagnosis for any. Nor have you given us the disease that caused the demise of Atlantis. First, the USA did not lose the Vietnam war, we disengaged because a new administration took over, and also because all the people that had made monetary killing on the war, had made sufficient money, and making more was no longer feasible, since the anti-war movement was taking its toll on politics and politicians. cost-effective. The German barbarians finally got through to Rome, because the Romans had become too fat, too wealthy, and too Christian to fight and defend their own borders, and those ignorant barbarians did not know that they too would eventually suffer the same fate a few century later. The Russians did not defeat Napoleon. Napoleon's superego, and the Russian Winter, along with his fighting on too many fronts is what defeated French imperialism. The same curse and madness struck down that German madman of yours, Hitler. Enough of medicine and war stories.

And believe me, if all the answers I was requesting from you were in Plato's Republic I would not have asked you, as I have read this dialogue a time or two. Oh yes, Plato's Laws, now there is another cherry for some Atlantis seekers, as they claim that Plato stopped writing the Critias, and never wrote the implied Hermocrates, so as to take on the Laws until his dying days.

And Thorwald, do give me more lessons on Plato, but please leave it for some other occasion. The reason I engaged you here, if you can remember, is because you cheered Jason's criticism of others' hypotheses on Plato's Atlantis, as seen on the NG documentary. That to me, seemed sheer hypocrisy on your part, since you fall under the same axe that Jason used to cut down the NG Documentary top personnel/stars. Jason should be the one that you should educate, or more precisely, impress, and not me. Because, my dear Thorwald, you never impressed me, as I know Plato well enough to use him as my guard against all you modern sophists, who think they know, but really do not know a damned thing about life and existence. Or as Socrates would phrase it; at least I "remember" enough to know that, in this life, I know nothing.

But I do recollect enough to know that neither do you, know anything about Plato's Atlantis, nor about anything Plato wanted us to "know" (recollect). And I'm afraid that all you will leave to p

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T. Franke link
2/5/2017 05:10:45 pm

Concerning the mud: ... as Plato saw it ... even Aristotle saw it. You even find it in Late Antiquity in Martianus Capella ...

Concerning Jason's verdict: It is better to suffer from others, than to do harm to others. May Jason see no difference, *I* will always see a difference, and maybe, one day, Jason will understand it.

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Frank
2/6/2017 07:03:28 am

Thorwald, you use references as it fits your need; Aristotle and the mud for instance, as it relates to the pillars of Heracles (Gibraltar) being used by Plato to orient the reader towards Atlantis, and using that land/sea marker to tell us that Atlantis was to the west of the strait of Gibraltar (outside the Mediterranean). And yet, you maintain that Atlantis is the island of Sicily, smack in the middle of the Med. http://atlantipedia.ie/samples/franke-thorwald-c/

You are also one of those naive types that maintains an Egyptian origin for the myth of Atlantis when history, and all other classical witnesses you wish to bring to court, will tell the judge and jury that Plato made up all the lines of his dialogues relating to Atlantis. Plato himself provides the clue, as he tells that this tale was recovered from "oblivion." The following link mentions you by name, where it proves your gullibility for an Egyptian origin. http://atlantipedia.ie/samples/minoan-hypothesis/

Herodotus went to Egypt and "talked" to many priests there, even the ones at Sais, and yet, no Atlantis is ever mentioned. You yourself use Herodotus as you do Aristotle, but only when you have a cherry to pick, if I recall one of your early papers in which you used Herodotus.

And by the way, Since Plato made 3 different trips to Sicily, why did he not just say that Sicily is/was Atlantis? Why all the mystery and beating around the bush? Oh yes, so as to have people like you leave mankind's posterity your unique contribution of knowledge.

And since my last post to you was cut short by some limiting word counter, I had written that the only thing you will leave posterity is your bodily carcass, just like the rest of us stiffs and ignoramus. Because once your soul is free from that dead weight, it has to face the judge, and take that 1 thousand years journey we all have to make. And unless you are a true philosopher you do not get to go directly to the Go-line to collect your $200 and then take another trip around the Monopoly board. But you will have to go to jail and stay there for at least three turns, before you can roll the dice again. And you may be playing the game of Monopoly in eternity, unless you finally learn to not drink too much water of forgetfulness.

But, I need to stop this back and forth with you, since It's Jason's job to swing the mighty axe of reason. But apparently Jason is too busy cutting off other heads, or he does want to harm a paying customer like you, and the simple slap he gave on the back of your hand will suffice for him.

T. Franke link
2/6/2017 03:04:03 pm

Frank, pointing to Sicily is based on an argument which you just omit in order to impute cherry-picking to me. And this, although I told you about the quality of the hint to Gibraltar in the Atlantis dialogues? By the way, my best arguments in favour of Sicily are still not published. Come on, what is the purpose of this all? And yes, the role of Plato in Sicily ... is the key to it all. Therefore, I payed for the translation of a forgotten Swedish text elaborating on this idea. Available in English: Gunnar Rudberg, Atlantis and Syracuse. Rudberg thinks of an invention. I do not. But his approach is marvellous. https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis_syracuse.htm

Oliver Smith
2/5/2017 10:30:44 pm

@ Franke

You do cherry-pick, in fact its all you do. You've said you "search for Atlantis in the bronze age" yet a Bronze Age is contradicted by what is written in Timaeus-Critias, e.g. we're told Atlantis predated ships and navigation (Critias, 113e). To arrive at an Atlantis in the Bronze Age (your theory) means you ignore/disregard this passage, i.e. whatever doesn't fit your pre-conceived idea, you disregard as a 'distortion'.

"By judicious selection of those parts of Plato’s account which fit, and rejection of those which do not as distortions or exaggerations, a case can be made for almost any part of the world as the site of a historical Atlantis.” (Vitaliano, 1973)

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john last
2/6/2017 02:45:04 am

Actually, Oliver, you're wrong too: Plato is talking about the begining the development and the end of Atlantis.The beggining -very primitive people, no temples, propably stone age, then he talks about many generations (trying to outdo eachother) .This is the period between the beggining and the end of this civilization. Here they developed many things, writings sailing e.t.c then comes the moment of the war where they have reached their peak. They, now have 1,200 ships.

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T. Franke link
2/6/2017 06:33:49 am

Very true, John Last. Furthermore, we have to distinguish between what Plato got from his (distorted) historical source(s), and what he took from his (biased) theories about history.

Frank
2/6/2017 08:02:29 am

John, you are Last only because you stayed longer to count the ships, so as to make it clear to Plato that he had distorted history with his biased views. Therefore, apparently, Plato did not see that mud clearly either, if his view was biased, as our subject matter expert tells us. Well John, are you sure that the Atlanteans had exactly 1,200 ships? Just plain ships and all of same type? Or, being an advanced civilization, had 100 destroyers, 500 frigates, 15 aircraft carriers, 25 battle ships, 215 resupply freighters, 100 PT boats, and 245 of all-around classical and historical triremes? But that was only for the Royal city of Atlas, and you missed counting all the military assets for the other nine brothers' kingdoms, which were also located on this "continent" island of Sicily, not larger than Libya and Asia combined, but "in-between" Libya and Asia, as the priest told Solon, and as Thorwald, cleverly, figured out for humanity. And which also contained that great and most fertile, huge plain of Catania. And where all those buffaloes roamed, and contained swamp creatures and large herds of "pygmy" Elephants, which also roamed around and jumped over all those Sicilian Atlanteans' canals, which were carefully, and precisely dug at intervals of 100 stadia.

T. FRANKE
2/6/2017 10:03:58 am

FRANK, you're an idiot.

T. Franke link
2/6/2017 10:09:19 am

The last comment ("Frank, you're an idiot") was not made by me. Identity thieves are on the way ......

T. Franke link
2/6/2017 10:16:02 am

Frank, no pygmy elephants in my idea of Atlantis, and no "in-between". But I see that you know well all the ideas others had created on this. You obviously have read a lot about it.

You find my basic idea on the size of Atlantis on Atlantipedia, near the end of the article:
http://atlantipedia.ie/samples/size-of-atlantis/

It becomes unpleasant here, since my identiy is faked. You cannot rely any more on my name tag. We have to stop the discussion.

Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 03:37:59 pm

"Actually, Oliver, you're wrong too: Plato is talking about the begining the development and the end of Atlantis.The beggining -very primitive people, no temples, propably stone age, then he talks about many generations (trying to outdo eachother)."

He isn't. The war between Atlantis and Attica/Athens is dated 9000 years before the time of Solon. Read Jason's commentary on this above.

It would help if people actually read the dialogues before trying to debate. Franke apparently hasn't even read them either.

T. Franke link
2/6/2017 05:10:04 pm

Oliver D. Smith likes to give wrong impressions about me and my ideas about Atlantis ... everybody can see for himself:
http://www.atlantis-scout.de/

Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 09:01:29 pm

@ Franke

Your work is just cherry-picking. You say Atlantis fits a Bronze Age setting, but this means you have to ignore/disregard the pre-Bronze Age descriptions. The fact you don't admit you cherry-pick shows you have no integrity at all. And I've just caught you cherry-picking in these blog comments, why deny? If you're arguing Atlantis was Bronze Age, you're cherry picking because that's not what Plato's dialogues say.

"By judicious selection of those parts of Plato’s account which fit, and rejection of those which do not as distortions or exaggerations, a case can be made for almost any part of the world as the site of a historical Atlantis.” (Vitaliano, 1973)

This is the Atlantis syndrome. Each Atlantis researcher just subjectively selects whatever parts of Plato's dialogues that fit their pre-conceived location hypothesis, while rejecting the rest as distortions that don't fit.

T. Franke link
2/6/2017 10:07:30 am

The last comment ("FRANK, you're an idiot") was not made by me. Identity thieves are on the way ...

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FRANK
2/6/2017 10:15:31 am

I don't believe you.

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Real Frank this once and last time
2/6/2017 11:12:56 pm

True, Thorwald, I'm a victim too it seems, as anyone can easily hijack names around here as they can others' ideas. Besides, Jason has surrounded himself with lots of real well-to-do intellectual idiots and practical jokers. And apparently we are included in this elite group of intellectual giants, otherwise what are we doing here? I'm exiting, stage right. No more will I wash my dirty laundry in this public forum of unbelievers and criticizers. Note how there are no assertions here, only criticism of others' assertions. It's easy to criticize, only let anyone here come up with an idea of their own; that's just impossible. Caro Thorwald, Ci vediamo a cefalu`. Happy Atlantis seeking, and may the gods be with you! So long!

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Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 11:58:34 pm

I assume IPs are logged (and Jason has access to them) when comments are posted here, so there's not much point in trying to post under someone else's name. However, I noticed Thorwald C. Franke has a history of this sort of thing, see here:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Tony_O%27Connell

I don't know if Jason has seen this page:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tony_O%27Connell

What's hilarious is that as soon as Rationalwiki criticized Connell (the owner of Atlantipedia) for his pseudo-history views such as Olmecs are "Negroid", global flood, and support for expanding earth hypothesis - he rushed to edit what he had written. Within a day of his Rationalwiki article, he removed a lot of his support of the expanding earth etc. Are we expected he really changed his views within 24 hours?

My issue with Thorwald C. Franke is he's linked to these loons and pseudo-historians like Tony Connell (he showed up at Rationalwiki trying to defend Connell) and has fringe views on Atlantis of his own, but he is trying to pass off his research as "academic". His website is called "academic approaches to Atlantis" but academic it certainly isn't. Its the same thing with the Georgeos guy. None of their work is peer-reviewed, yet they're trying to claim it as academic and serious. I find the whole thing deceptive.

T.FRANK link
2/6/2017 10:17:49 am

then, you're an idiot.

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