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Did Ancient Greece Borrow Its Philosophies from India?

7/26/2013

61 Comments

 
It’s still early, and today I’ve already been accused of having an “almost pathological” obsession with Ancient Aliens on Twitter and also on my blog of being in denial about the importance of ancient India to Greek philosophy. The first question is a refreshing change of pace from the usual complaint that I am obsessed with America Unearthed. If Joe Rogan’s new show had more to say about ancient history and less about alleged Bigfoot-human hybrids, I’d review that and get charged with an unwholesome obsession there, too.

The poster writing under the name M. V. Jain suggests—well, Jain says a lot of things—that I am downplaying the evidence that ancient India contributed heavily to the development of ancient Greece, particularly its philosophy. This is a variation of the “Black Athena” theme from earlier decades, though one with a longer pedigree.

Ultimately, the claim that India influenced ancient Greece before the time of Alexander (when an Indo-Greek kingdom was established) derives from the early observation of the close similarity between Sanskrit, Greek, and Latin—known since the early modern period—which suggested to early scholars that Sanskrit, believed to be the oldest of the three, necessarily belonged to an ur-culture that yielded the other two. Today, we know that all three languages (and many more) share a common heritage from the much earlier Proto-Indo-European people. This is, for example, why similar events occur in the Mahabharata and the Iliad, or why the Greek god Zeus (Dios) shares his name with the Vedic Dyaus. Thus, common elements of mythology—and therefore the philosophical ideas that emerged from them—came from this shared heritage.

But in order to evaluate whether India contributed directly to Greece, we need to think about a specific timeline to see if it’s possible. The earliest Greek report we have of India is in the fragments of Ctesias from the fifth century BCE, but his report was not firsthand. Instead, he describes how the Persians viewed India, a secondhand source. Eusebius also says an Indian was resident at Athens in Socrates’ day, but most scholars think this is a later invention. Around 300 BCE, Megasthenes actually traveled to India, and he is the first Greek on record as having visited India, either in Greek or Indian records. Later writers like Strabo, Arrian, Diodorus, and Pliny make use of his work.

Megasthenes is important, I suppose, because he is the warrant for supposing earlier influence of Greece on India or vice versa. He claims, for example, that Heracles and Dionysus had previously explored India (Strabo 15.1.6), though this was an interpretatio graeca of the Hindu gods. Some have tried to identify this Heracles with Indra, but this is not certain. More to the point, Megasthenes wrote that the Brahmans held “several of the same doctrines which are current among the Greeks… They have also conceived many fanciful speculations, after the manner of Plato…” (Strabo 15.1.59). He also said, “All that was said about nature by the ancients is said also by those who philosophise beyond Greece: some things by the Brahmins among the Indians, and others by those called Jews in Syria” (Clement, Stromata 1.15). This, some feel, indicates that the Indians gave these doctrines to Greece, even though Megasthenes calls them “childish” and only encountered them two centuries later. While Clement of Alexandria used this to argue that Greek and Indian philosophy was ultimately derived from the Jews (and was thus Biblical), Megasthenes actually meant (as Strabo noted) only to compare the two philosophies and to point to similarities of doctrine, not to propose a common origin; and at any rate, he attributed Indian philosophy to Dionysus, which would put the Greeks first (in his view). After him, the Greeks and Romans were in more or less regular contact with India, and we need not care about what they did.

In the 1950s, George P. Conger tried to resurrect the Indian origins idea, seeking to relate Hesiod and Homer to Indian analogues (apparently hoping to minimize the inheritance of the Indo-Europeans, which he considered primeval Aryanism). He found influence from India in the doctrines of the pre-Socratic philosophers, but his examples are only fragmentary similarities between metaphysical concepts, which he admits could well have diffused westward via Persia and Babylon.

If there were a connection between Indian philosophy and early Greek philosophy, it would have had to travel along that route rather than by direct contact. The fact of the matter is that ancient cultures bordered each other, and their ideas did not stay within the limits of their cities. India traded with Mesopotamia; Mesopotamia traded with Syria and Anatolia. Both of those places traded with the Mycenaeans and the Greeks. It used to be verboten to argue that the Greeks borrowed anything from the non-Greeks, but today we recognize a vast debt Greece owed to the ancient Near East. Conger argued that “indirect” influence emanated from India, and that’s probably about right (if somewhat overstated), mediated through the ancient Near East, which we know securely was a source for Greek myth, cult, and philosophy—though the influence was never one way and probably involved the diffusion of ideas in multiple directions. 

61 Comments
Cathleen Anderson
7/26/2013 09:44:32 am

So, does that make me obsessed, since I read your column regularly and sometimes comment.

I did not notice any typos this time by the way.

Reply
Bill
7/26/2013 11:51:43 am

You are only vicariously obsessed.

Reply
The Other J.
7/26/2013 10:28:08 pm

There was one typo -- "Proto-Indo-Europeans people." "Europeans" doesn't need to be plural. Not that I'm obsessing.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
7/26/2013 11:26:58 pm

I fixed the typo. Someday, I will post something that doesn't have typos. Of course that means that at some point my typing will improve, and that hasn't happened over the past few decades, so I wouldn't hold my breath!

Constantinos Kyriakopoulos
1/27/2020 08:44:56 pm

Never ever have I read so much rubbish. Everybody wants a piece of the Hellenic Glory. Sorry Indians but we (Greece) are the center of the world as civilization began in the Aegean. Everything you see in this world came from the Greeks.

Reply
KLANMAN
2/13/2020 07:34:06 pm

You're funny! I'm sure you're able to find a way to explain the how the Universe came about as a result of Zeus' flatulence! (Zeus of course being the later Greek cognate of the 12,000 year old Indian deity, Dayus Pita). It's weird how Greeks & Romans speak about ancient India & Indians, but Indians in all their ancient text speak nothing of the Greeks! They didn't even mention "Alexander the Slav"...Heh heh heh. You're funny!

CFC
7/26/2013 12:59:17 pm

I wouldn’t call it an obsession. America Unearthed and Committee Films are in the business of exploiting gullible people and contributing to misinforming them about real science and archaeology. I would say you’re providing a great service by outing their deception.

Reply
Tara Jordan
7/26/2013 04:40:17 pm

From the perspective of non US citizen, I see the entire US educational system,the media & political establishment as contributing to misinform the public about the world.Hence the famous quotation: "each & every time the US engages a military operation against a foreign country,Americans learn about geography".The latest American phobia: Iran is an immediate threat to the security of the United States (approx: 7000 miles).

Reply
varika
7/27/2013 06:16:00 am

Tara, of necessity, educational systems lag behind the latest information. Japan has its prejudices, too. As for the "famous quotation," that is ALSO not a phenomenon unique to the US; I went to school in California with a girl from Japan who didn't realize that neither Canada nor Mexico are part of the US and had never heard of Delaware, where I'm from, which was the very FIRST state to ratify the Constitution. People mostly remember what geography they're exposed to regularly, not what they learned in the third grade and never had occasion to use again. How much of the geography of, say, South America could you recite without looking it up, for instance? However much it is, probably doesn't come close to how much someone who lives there could. I could say that I know there are three main islands in Japan and that Tokyo is at the southern end of the largest, bordering on the Pacific Ocean; you who lives there could certainly detail me much, much, much more.

As for Iranian threat--whatever the media might tout, most people over here aren't particularly worried that I've seen, but I do have to point out that in an age of intercontinental travel, 7000 miles isn't precisely a barrier to an attack. If you're going to scorn the thought of Iran being an immediate threat to the security of the US, please do it on the basis of politics and the lack of resources rather than on distance. Politics and resources are certainly more pertinent.

Tara Jordan
7/27/2013 07:22:04 am

Varika.People in the US are not particularly preoccupied with Iran at this moment,but this perception may be subject to change.Dont underestimate the power of propaganda & media spin.I don't have to tell you about the circumstances that brought Bush junior to the White house,but he "won" with a slight margin & despite being extremely unpopular by mid 2002,86% of Americans supported the US invasion of Iraq,courtesy of the propaganda & the official story telling.(again I am referring to the Iraq issue because we have enough distance & understanding of what actually happened).

America is not like any other country.Everything the US does is having a major impact on the rest of the world.There is something unique about the US.Its hegemony, its pornographic military budget,the capacity of its military,its willingness & casualness to invade foreign countries & engage in acts of war.The rest of the world is more than often the victim of American national interests & the predatory nature of US foreign policies.Dont get me wrong,I`am not the usual Chomsky type (I am not even a leftist) I am not blaming the US for everything,we also share a huge part of responsibility in what is happening, because we do nothing at preventing or stopping you.I cannot blame the US for protecting its own interests but Americans should understand that we also have concepts of national security,State sovereignty & national interests outside the US.

Cora
7/26/2013 02:31:37 pm

Nice post Jason!

Reply
The Other J.
7/26/2013 10:56:15 pm

You're "almost pathological," Jason -- some would say even "scholarly." Some would mean that as an insult; some wouldn't. I don't.

Whenever I read a post like this, I wonder if there's any good primers out there outlining just what that Proto-Indo-European world would have looked like. What were their gods, and how did they evolve/devolve into other Indo-European deities? Sort of a tracing of, say, war gods back to the Proto-Indo-European war god, etc. Similarly, are there any seeming historical figures who appear to resonate out of the Proto-Indo-European past into later stories? Or more likely, are there seeming Proto-Indo-European historical figures who later become mythologized in later traditions? (I guess something like an original figure who gives rise to the commonalities between, say, Gilgamesh and Noah.)

I know there's plenty of scholarship done on specific instances of this sort of thing; I'm just curious about a kind of overview.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
7/26/2013 11:35:19 pm

Surprisingly, there is less about them than you'd think. Apparently, publishers think that only specialized scholars are interested in the PIE people. There are some interesting books on the subject. There's an overview by J. P. Mallory and Douglas Q. Adams in "The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-Europeans and the Proto-Indo-European World" (Oxford, 2006) and M. L. West's "Indo-European Poetry and Myth" (Oxford, 2007). If you have access, Peter Jackson's article "Light from Distant Asterisks" (Numen, Vol. 49, No. 1 (2002), pp. 61-102) is also a good overview of current evidence.

Reply
The Other J.
7/27/2013 07:35:51 am

Cheers, thanks for the tips -- I do have access to Numen, and just nabbed Jackson's article.

BobM
7/28/2013 02:29:23 pm

There was some suggestion when I was studying eastern and western medical systems, that the Indian system of medicine was influenced by Greece, and possibly vice versa can't remember :-). Plus I was busy setting people straight on just because something's been used for 3000 years (actually a lot less) it must be good :-).

Reply
Aumkar
8/29/2013 05:21:40 pm

But after all Vedas were there thousand year before it was written down somewhere around 1500 BC.. much earlier and all these philosophies which are said to be similar were already there in Vedas. So there remains two options:

(1) Greeks were influenced by Indian philosophy.
(2) Greek ideas were independently developed.

But I don't see a mixing at least in the time of Vedas.

I should also comment about the Vedas here: Its mentioned in the scriptures that Vyasa sits on the banks of flowing Sarasvati river... and this river Sarasvati went dry before 2500 BC.. so that pushes the writing of Vedas to 2500 BC at least.

Of course later there will be mixing of Ideas.. but one should be very clear about at the time of existence of written Vedas and so also when it was an oral culture much before it was actually written down. Its important because, if you ever go through the Vedas and Upanishads then you'll find well structured form of philosophy and well structured divisions and chapters on how to attain enlightenment. Now about the language in which these were written.. Sanskrit, if you ever feel to study its grammar you'll realize for yourself that how structured this language is, as if some much advanced (eve more advanced then today's linguists) Linguistics experts had taken a long project to create an artificial language which will be perfect. So such a perfection and details and structure in 2500 BC would never have been influenced by Greek philosophies because Greek philosophies were not so structured and detailed at that time but were some collection of different ideas.

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Manik Ghoshal
11/6/2017 05:10:02 pm

Hi Aumkar, it’s true the River Saraswati dried up before 2000 BC. But it may have been at its peak flow a few thousand years before- it may have taken many thousands of years to gradually disappear. In the Vedas it’s written that Saraswati was the mother of [mightier than] Indus River. It was the Devi among rivers. Thus it’s true that the Vedas may have been written up to 7-8 thousand years ago. There are flood stories in Sanskrit scriptures from India from the time ice melted after Ice Age- probably 8-9 thousand years ago. It was the ice melt which made Saraswati such a mighty River- up to seven miles wide judging by its valley in Punjab.

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Vinay Seth
4/4/2018 04:24:57 pm

Hi Aumkar. Could I please have a link to the source you're relaying your information from? Or the book that you read which contains this information?

Thanks in advance,
and thanks for sharing this knowledge,
Vinay.

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Gopal
8/19/2014 11:58:35 pm

Indians worship the sun and Greeks did the same.

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jay3kn
4/26/2015 01:27:57 am

No, the Greeks didn't worship the sun. -.-

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Manny K
7/2/2018 07:09:35 am

Isn’t Apollo the Sun God?

jay3kn
4/26/2015 01:26:44 am

Greece invented everything and India borrowed things. There is no simultaneous influence.

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Shyan Sujeebun link
10/17/2015 05:50:03 am

Greeks are great at copying others.
The only reason that everything seem to
come from Greece because of the obsession
during colonialism to present a eurocentric
of the world to be able to oppress Africa,
Asia. Observe how the trend leans towards
China. Greeks built fine statues but apart
from that they gave NOTHING to Egypt,
India and Mesopotamia.
Alexander was a butcher,hunchback and
a perverted alkoholic.He massacred women,
children ,people who had surrendered to him.
And starting with the Athenians,he continued
in Asia. He is considered in Europe because
of the massacre of Asians,Athenians are forgotten .

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Manik Ghoshal
5/15/2017 05:47:05 pm

Indians invented the Zero and the 1-10, 11-19, 21-30 etc decimal system. I wonder how thew greek would have written 1 billion in their numerals. Coils someone tell me please.

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Johan
5/29/2017 11:18:18 am

Dude indians did not invent zero thats pure bullshit. Can you give an explanation why mathematica(μαθηματικα) or geometry(Γεωμετρια) have an exactly similar word in greek that have an actual meaning? only in greek you can understand what for example geometry(Γεω-earth and Μετραω-calculate) used from greeks to portate that they draw shapes in the sand to calculate and solve their problems. How about the triangle? Comes from greek τριγωνο(means τρι -3 angles γωνιες)? How about the entire planet uses greek letter π you know for π = 3,14..... Ever wondered why ? FOOD FOR THOUGHt

Manik Ghoshal
5/29/2017 01:52:25 pm

Tell me how the Greek wrote ten, hundred, thousand, ten thousand, hundred thousand, million, ten million, hundred million, etc. Do you know the answer Johan. L, C, X, etc?

It's Indians who taught the world the decimal system and to write- 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000, etc.

R Leakey
12/21/2017 03:20:04 pm

Don't be Jerk, look at the history of both countries. Indian civilization emerged 7K years ago, and still continue. Look mathematical tradition in India, From Vedic age to modern age India has mathematical continuity. But in contrast, Greek civilization emerged 6th century BC and collapsed by the 3rd century AD. Since then no any remarkable breakthrough in any field of knowledge.

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Kris
12/25/2017 08:10:16 pm

I think there are only two living cultures and civilizations that remain through millennia, one is Indian and the other is Chinese. The other ancient civilizations could not survive through time for very many reasons. Imagine a person who lived 3000 to 300 BCE and coming back to life now in Egypt, Greece or Mesopotamia cannot find similar cultures any more whereas an Indian coming to life now from that era can see many similarities in rural India. Unless the culture has strong routes, it cannot survive this long.

Dr Nat Khublall
1/11/2018 02:46:39 pm

I agree with R. Leaky that Indian civilisation was 7,000 years ago much earlier than that in Greece. India had established universities as early as the 5th century BC and Greek scholars were known to have travelled to India to study at Ancient Indian universities. Pythagoras acquired his knowledge in India for his famous theorem.


Vinay Seth
4/4/2018 04:40:50 pm

Well, I beg to differ with you on that one. Indians never really continued their discoveries in Mathematics. The last big peak died out with the Kerala school of astronomy in the 14th century.

Richard Long
9/18/2019 01:41:18 am

Indian civilization and Western civilization rose and fell just the same, over and over again, with different periods of Renaissance in different areas.

The idea of a continuous Asian civilization that is in some way different from the continuity of Western civilization collapses with even the most basic reading in Chinese or Indian history.

Arjun
4/19/2020 02:43:37 pm

Ever heard about minoans, they flourished from 3000 bc to 1200bc, and then myceaneans, then dorians, then greeks [hellenics]. Western Civilization is way oder than you think it is, the mediteranian sea was the cradle of civilization, and there are older ones, way older than IVC but are still in the process of being excavated and analyzed!

Dr Nat
5/17/2018 05:03:52 pm

Many famous Greek philosophers acquired their knowledge from ancient Indian universities when no other country had universities.
India had a colony in Greece. Refer to the book "India in Greece..." by Edward Pocoke 1852, available free on the internet. Greece was a conduit for the dissemination of knowledge to Europe from India, China and Egypt. You are Eurocentric in your opinion, unwilling like many Europeans to accept the truth.

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Abhimanyu Alexander
5/24/2015 08:12:05 pm

Folks need to study history instead of offering their knee-jerk comments.

We are not completely in the dark on the question of Indian influence on Greece. Speaking of ascetic practices in the West, Professor Sir Flinders Patrie (1853-1942) British archaeologist and Egyptologist, author of Egypt and Israel (1911) observes:

" The presence of a large body of Indian troops in the Persian army in Greece in 480 B.C. shows how far west the Indian connections were carried; and the discovery of modeled heads of Indians at Memphis, of about the fifth century B.C. shows that Indians were living there for trade. Hence there is no difficulty in regarding India as the source of the entirely new ideal of asceticism in the West."

It is significant to note that although the Indians and Greeks (Yavanas) had come from the same Indo-European stock, they met as strangers in the sixth century B.C. Persian Empire. Soon, however, the cousins became associates in a a common cultural enterprise. Similarities in language, associated by similarities in religious beliefs, indicate that these two peoples must have either been in close contact at some early period or have had a common origin, even though neither had any recollection of those times.

For example, the gods of heaven (Varuna - Ouranos; Dyaus - Zeus ) and the dawn (Ushas - Aurora) were common to the Greeks and Indians. The most prominent characteristics of the gods of both races was their power of regulating the order of nature and banishing evil. The Olympian religion of the Greeks and Vedic beliefs had a common background. The Greek concept of logos was very close to the vedic Vac, which corresponds to the Latin Vox.

Both Greeks and Romans habitually tried to understand the religions of India by trying to fit them as far as possible into Greco-Roman categories. Deities in particular were spoken of, not in Indian but in Greek terms and called by Greek names. Thus Shiva was identified as 'Dionysos', and Hare Krishna as ' Hercules'.

In a passage of the Rig Veda, Vac is praised as a divine being. Vac is omnipotent, moves amongst divine beings, and carries the great gods, Mitra, Varuna, Indra and Agni, within itself. The doctrine of Vac teaches that "all gods live from Vac, also all demi-gods, animals and people. Vac is the eternal being, it is the first-born of the eternal law, mother of the Vedas and navel of immortality." Vedic Aryans attached such great importance to the spoken word that one who could not correctly pronounce Sanskrit was called barbar (meaning stammering).

The Greek barbaroi had the same meaning. The brisk intercourse between India and Greece is attested by the fact that a special rule was inserted in the great grammar of Panini to distinguish three feminine forms of yavana: a Greek woman was yavani, the curtain was yavanika, and the Greek script was yavanani. There is also a striking similarity between the social life described in the Homeric poems- the Illiad and Odyssey- and that found in the Vedas. Homeric gods, like the heroes who believed in them, often rode in the horse driven chariots. Horse-chariotry was a feature of the life of the Indo-European people. The Homeric idea of a language of the gods is also found in Sanskrit, Greek, Old Norse, and Hittite literatures. Some scholars, like Fiske, have even asserted that elements of the Trojan war story are to be found in the war between the bright deities, and the night demons as described in the Rig Veda. It is clear from Homer that even they used articles of Indian merchandise which were known by names of Indian origin, such as Kassiteros (Sanskrit, Kastira), elephas (Sanskrit, ibha), and ivory.

Alain Danielou (1907-1994), author of numerous books on philosophy, religion, history and arts of India, remarks that: "the Greeks were always speaking of India as the sacred territory of Dionysus and historians working under Alexander the Greek clearly mentions chronicles of the Puranas as sources of the myth of Dionysus." He quotes Clement of Alexandria who admitted that "we the Greeks have stolen from the Barbarians their philosophy."

The similarity between the theory of Thales, that water is the material cause of all things, and the Vedic idea of primeval waters as the origin of the universe, was first pointed out by Richard Garbe. The resemblances, too, between the teachings of Pythagoras (ca. 582-506 B.C.) and Indian philosophy are striking. It was Sir William Jones, the founder of comparative philology, who first pointed out the pointed out the similarities between Indian and Pythagorean beliefs. Later, other scholars such as Colebrooke, Garbe, and Winternitz also testified to the Indian inspiration of Pythagoras.

Professor H. G. Rawlinson writes: " It is more likely that Pythagoras was influenced by India than by Egypt. Almost all the theories, religions, philosophical and mathematical taught by the Pythagoreans, were known in India in the sixth century B.C., and the Pythagoreans, like t

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JOHAN MATTAS
5/29/2017 11:27:43 am

man you really luck of history knowledge but please answer me this.. Why mathematics and geometry have an actual meaning only in greek? What about the triangle? Its used to portrate the greek word τριγωνο which means( τρι(3) γωνιες(angles)). How about Drama, Poetry,Philoshophy,Physics,Democrasy,and counteless other words have meaning only in greek language? And lastly how come indians invented 0 1, 2,3 and others and greeks by the time had built the first computer ever called Antikythira Mechanism? How could they build a pc without the knowledge of zero?And they did that whilst indians were on the caves searching for food? How come greeks firstly calculated the distance between planets and how they move? How come again Astronomy has meaning only in greek αστρονομια and means αστρο(stars) and νομοι(laws) all together means the law of stars? FOOD FOR THOUGHT

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Chith
9/5/2017 04:29:06 am

India is more than 15000 years old civilization. Europe believed in Church and the Bible. As per the Bible world came into existence around 5000 years ago. So English could not think beyond 5000 years and fitted the Indian history in that framework. See who wrote Indian history ? Not even a single Indian was allowed to do that till recent years. Indian history depend on a book written by a man who never visited India in his entire life. Even an average westerner cannot comprehend India's deep philosophy and its meaning. Pythagoras theorem was in India 1000 years before Pythagoras. All the geometric figures have Indian names such as Trikona for triangle. Gola for circle, Varg for square, Andakrathi for oval, thara for Star shape and it goes on and on. I wonder why you imagine that one can find science in Greek only. The first treatment method in the whole world was Ayurveda , a part of Indian vedic literature. All realms of science is covered by India , even inter galactic flights. Indian scientists were sages with extra sensory wisdom. With that they calculated distance between stars and shape of astral bodies (Khagola sastra). Indians knew speed of light and value of Pi and Indian music is composed in a way that it directly affects the body and mind of the listener.It is so vast that western music has to work thousands of years to compete with it. You should understand that India was there 15000 years before and it still exists. This itself is the proof to its inbuilt intelligence to survive any kind of circumstances..

Abhinav Singhal
2/17/2018 06:09:46 am

You are getting it all wrong!!! Indians used to speak in sanskrit. Mathematics was called ganita in sanskrit. Astronomy was called bhugolvidya. Indians didn't use these Greek names for Maths and Astronomy. Just because we call them By their Greek names now doesn't mean they make sense only in greek,This is the worst possible logic I ever found.Our names were different for maths, physics, biology, astronomy were in a different language.What were you even thinking while typing this point ??? We still call these subjects by their Indian names in India. Triangle is called trikon in sanskrit whuch means three corners. Doesn't this make sense?? Now!! The invention of zero is widely credited to India. The first computer you are mentioning was an astromical device. This device is still being interpreted and many doubt whether it is just a hoax. Astronomical computers don't need any use of zero. The entire world practiced astronomy without the knowledge of zero. Zero was mentioned as symbol by Egyptians and mesopotamians. But the Indians were the first to use it as a number. Many famous scientists have widely accepted this fact. Just check it!! And, it was not a PC!!! If you really want to talk about conspiracy theories, then I too have many regarding Indian civilization. So let us just stick to facts. And Indians were in the caves searching for food !!!! what ??? Have you ever heard about Indus valley civilization?? It was the first urban civilization and recent excavations have pushed the dates back to thousands of years. It was an urban centre of life while greeks and the west was living in caves and searching for food!!! Atleast search for proper facts before typing. When Greece emerged in the 6th century BC, India was already a well developed and civilised land. There was large kingdoms ruling India. There are records of wars being fought amongst Indians in 1500 BC. The Persians , our direct neighbours viewed us as extremely developed and civilised land. If you read Persian history, you will realise that they considered India to be unconquerable!!! And the greeks too were not able to conquer India. Alexander's invasion of India failed. Seleucus Nicator was defeated by Mauryans. Further attempts to invade India too didn't materialise for the Greeks as they constantly lost battles against the Indians. Indian astronomy is thousands of years old. Indians knew about planetary motions and even calculated distance between planets , distance between Earth and the Sun etc. The circumference of Earth is also calculated along with many other calculations. Greeks were not the first to do so!!! The Indus valley had calibrated scales for measurments, weighing scales etc. Vedas mention about accurate astronomy. Many sanskrit texts predate Greeks by centuries on astronomy. Indians knew about pie science time immemorial. Aryabhatta calculated values of pi. Indians developed infinite series for pie. They also developed infinite series for trignometric variables. The movement of planets is well known to Indians. Indians even now can predict eclipses and other cosmological events without any declaration from NASA or ISRO. They predicted these things beforehand. Much like what that antikythera mechanism did. There is a book called agastya samhita that mentions about an electric cell. You can check about this. There are references to the speed of light known to the Indians as well. This can also be easily verified. Indian civilization is thousands of years old. recent excavations reveal urban cities dated as old as 9500 before the birth of christ. A civilization so old and so developed as the Indus valley civilization will affect the future civilizations and not get affected by them. Still, there is profound greek influence on India. Same is the case with greeks. They had considerable Indian influence. This was a two way thing. But, the ones who already existed for centuries will affect the later ones more. That's what happened. This is pretty normal. This does not take the credit away from the greeks who were also a great civilization.

R LEAKEY
3/31/2018 05:02:41 pm

@JOHAN MATTAS

So funny, don't limit your knowledge only to language. CHITH has given the equivalent terms. Modern sciences were invented in 18th century, before it was called natural philosophy. Latin and Greek foundations helped them lots. All the modern scientific terminologies were invented in those days and still being coined. Ancient words of mathematics have equivalent words in India too. Sun Hell and Earth (Gaia) are called Surya, Ravi, Aditya etc and Prithibi, Dhara, Dharti etc respectively. I meant to say that don't make language a limitation but talk about subject or science itself.

In Greece, there is historical marker the, date of Olympiad. For example, Diogenes Laërtius (second century AD) says, Thales died at the age of 78 in 58th Olympiad. In contrast, in India the historical marker starts from King Asoka. But now because of recent excavation in Lumbini, we can say that Buddha existed between 8th and 6th centuries BCE. Vedas and many Upanishads are older than Buddha. In India, natural philosophy started in Upanishads. By the time of Buddha, in India, all the schools of thought agreed that we are made of four great elements: Earth, Air, Fire, Water [and sometimes Space and Vigyan (consciousness) too]. But in Greece, Thales still believes that water is the prime element and others thought other elements.

In fact, direct or indirect interaction between India and Greece is very old, older than Alexander the Great, through traders, travellers and gypsies. Indian gold, gems, zinc, indigo were sold in ancient Greece via Mesopotamia and Egypt, and later Persia. Indian peacock becomes companion of Greek goddess Hera. Aesop (was a slave, I think he was Indian gypsy) tells Indian stories. All it happens long before Megasthenes. Indians does not know Greeks but they know Yona (Ionia, Turkey). The founding fathers of natural philosophy, like Thales, Pythagoras, Anaxagoras are Ionion. Pythagoras looks more Persian than being a Greek. L.V. Schroeder gives details in his book “Pythagorus und die Inder” A. Seidenberg and Frits Staal give detail accounts how Geometry has Vedic Ritual. Democritus travels to India where atomism was already in existence. Epicurus' so-called famous paradox already existed in Buddhist Jataka. Socratic dialectics existed in Upanishads and Buddhist texts. Pyrroh travels to India and encounters Buddhism. Stoic sounds hybrid of Vedanta, Jainism and Buddhism. In fact, it's not new idea that Greeks learnt from India and others, in the second century, Graeco-egyptian father of church has already written that. It was Diogenes Laërtius denied and wrote his biographical book '"Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers" to glorify Greek pride. But it is very funny to note that the most of literary works of Homer, Hesiod, Sappho, and others survived but so called the Seven Sages' works we have in only in fragments.

If we read Pali and Sanskrit Texts, we come to know that democracy (clan based, Oligarchy?) existed in Buddha era; the warrior class often organized sport matches like Olympic; informal beauty contest also practiced, the most beautiful girl was called Janapad Kalyani, astronomers used to calculate the stars, solar and lunar eclipse, and accordingly they used to tell soothsaying. So-called Greek origin Drama is false, in fact, it is universal, many tribal cultures have drama culture. According to Pali canon, Drama was performed in contemporary societies. Poetry exists from the right beginning, in the first text of India, that is called Rig Veda. Almost all most 80% of Indian ancient texts have been written in poetry so that students could memorise easily. That does not mean that there was no writing culture in India. Buddhist Digh Nikaya says that before Buddha writing, calculating and accounting cultures existed. Unfortunately, none of them survived because of ecological degradation. They were written in birch barks. Unlike Greeks, North India, where most of religious texts were composed, lacks good stone to inscribe.

Besides, It was not Thales but long before Buddha era, time was scaled in nimish, prahar, hour, day and night, 7 days of week, fortnights (Krishna and Shukla), 12 months, 6 seasons, and year, and space-time (time dilation). It was important in rituals and metaphysics. See detail https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Reference/Days-Months-Seasons.htm

In essence, unless you don’t read carefully texts of both sides, and modern history of science and mathematics, you are not going to comprehend the truth. Sorry my incoherent writing, I have written in hurry.

Dr Nat Khublall
5/3/2018 08:01:24 pm

Johan Mattas lacks knowledge of ancient Indian civilisation which is the oldest in the whole wide world. Most of what Johan Mattas has written is trash, I regret to say. What he says about Indians in these words "And they did that whilst indians were on the caves searching for food? apply to Europeans, not Indians. For over 2000 years India was the richest country in the world, save for a short period when India was overtaken by China. I would refer him to the writings of the late Prof Dr Angus Maddison, a European, who carried out research for some 2,000 years. Further< there is a book by Edward Pococke "India in Greece..." published in 1852 in which the author claims that India had a colony in Greece.
India had a GDP up to 1750 AD which was twice the combined GDP of the whole of Western Europe. The was due to their wisdom and achievements in ancient times. Most of the great Greek philosophers studied at ancient Indian universities. I don't intend to set out in detail how India was ahead of almost all countries, including the whole of Europe. I have written 4 books on India in which I have set out relevant information in support of my assertions here. Dr Nat Khublall

Kiran Bhoite
4/3/2019 03:08:49 am

A Sloka in the 10th book of Rig Veda appears to be written for praising Lord Indra. The technical translation of that Sloka gives the value of Pi up to 28 digits accurately. It is not until the invention of the computers that the western mathematicians could get this value up to 16 digits accurately. Here is a test for those who think that a computer can do any calculation. Use the fastest computer available to you and write a program to calculate the value of Pi up to 28 digits accurately. You will know how difficult it is.

Vedic Numerical Code in the Vedas

In Sanskrit, the following Vedic Numerical code was used in many slokas

कादि नव

टादि नव

पादि पञ्चक

यद्यश- ्टक

क्ष शुन्यम्

“Kaadi nava

Taadi nava

Paadi panchaka

Yadyashtaka

Kshah sunyam”

Meaning:

Kaadi Nava Starting from ka, the sequence of 9 letters represent 1,2,..9

Similarly Taadi Nava , starting from ta

Paadi panchaka (1-5), starting from pa

Yadyashtaka (1-8) starting from ya

And ksha represents 0

In detail it is as follows:

ka (क) – 1, kha (ख) – 2, ga (ग) – 3, gha (घ) – 4,gna (ङ) – 5, cha (च) – 6, cha (छ) – 7, ja (ज) – 8, jha (झ) – 9

ta (ट) – 1, tha (ठ) – 2, da (ड) – 3, dha (ढ) – 4,~na (ण) – 5, Ta (त) – 6, Tha (थ) – 7, Da (द) – 8, Dha (ध) – 9

pa (प) – 1, pha (फ) – 2, ba (ब) – 3, bha (भ) – 4,ma (म) – 5

ya (य) – 1, ra (र) – 2, la (ल) – 3, va (व) – 4, Sa (श) – 5, sha (ष) – 6, sa (स) – 7, ha (ह) – 8

kshah (क्ष) – 0.

Based on this code there are many slokas in mathematics., e.g., the following is a sloka for Pi value:

गोपीभाग्- य मधुव्रातः श्रुंगशोदध- ि संधिगः |

खलजीवितखा�¤- �ाव गलहाला रसंधरः ||


ga-3, pa-1, bha-4, ya -1, ma-5, Dhu-9, ra-2, tha-6, shru-5, ga-3, sho-5, dha-8, Dhi -9, sa-7, Dha- 9, ga-3, kha-2, la-3, jee-8, vi-4, tha-6, kha-2, tha-6, va-4, ga-3, la-3, ha-8, la-3, ra-2, sa-7, Dha-9, ra-2

3.1415926535897932384626433832792

Manik
9/5/2017 07:12:51 am

Very informative post Abhimanyu. Thanks for posting it. Your name is very interesting too- the combination of two great personalities, one from the East and one from the West. 👍🏼👍🏼

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Sachin
1/13/2018 02:33:20 am

Who is Dyaous? Never heard of him. Zeus is inspired from Indra, the king of Devtas. Both have command over skies. Indra has a weapon called Vajra, which acts like a lightening bolt. Zeus has a lightening bolt and he is the king of gods in Greek mythology. But Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma have no parallel in Greek mythology. Comparing Shiva with Dynosius is like comparing a Ferrari with a bicycle.
For all those commenting why mathematical terms are based on Greek and not Sanskrit, there are words for every one of these in Sanskrit. Infact the origin of many of these lies in Sanskrit. Jyamiti is the origin of geometry. Trikonmiti is the origin of trigonometry. Yes, trigonometry was practised in India atleast a thousand years before Pythagoras. The earliest known book of surgery is from India. Sushrut Samhita ( 500 BC atleast) describes various surgical procedures including rhinoplasty and other cosmetic surgeries. Charaka samhitas are a comprehensive book collection on medical sciences with detailed description of anatomy, treatment of various deseases. People like Brahmagupta, Aryabhatta were pioneers of Mathematics and Astronomy. Modern counting system, decimal system, zero, trigonometry, arithmetic , calculus, all originated from India and carried by Arab traders to central Asia and Europe. It was Brahmagupta who postulated Gravity a thousand years before apple fell on Newton.

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Vinay Seth
4/4/2018 04:51:25 pm

'Thus Shiva was identified as 'Dionysos', and Hare Krishna as ' Hercules'' - That's the first time I'm hearing of that connection. Could you please provide the source of your knowledge? Link/ Book please?

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Kalpathy Balan
6/14/2018 06:18:35 am

No one supposes any longer that Sanskrit was the common source of Greek, Latin, and Anglo-Saxon. This used to be said, but it has long been shown that Sanskrit is only a collateral branch of the same stem from which spring Greek, Latin, and Anglo-Saxon; and not only these, but all the Teutonic, all the Celtic, all the Slavonic languages, nay, the languages of Persia and Armenia also.
The process by which that ancient chapter of history was recovered is very simple. Take the words which occur in the same form and with the same meaning in all the seven branches of the Aryan family, and you have in them the most genuine and trustworthy records in which to read the thoughts of our true ancestors, before they had become Hindus, or Persians, or Greeks, or Romans, or Celts, or Teutons, or Slaves. Of course, some of these ancient charters may have been lost in one or other of these seven branches of the Aryan family, but even then, if they are found in six, or five, or four, or three, or even two only of its original branches, the probability remains, unless we can prove a later historical contact between these languages, that these words existed before the great Aryan Separation. If we find agni, meaning fire, in Sanskrit, and ignis, meaning fire, in Latin, we may safely conclude that fire was known to the undivided Aryans, even if no trace of the same name of fire occurred anywhere else. And why? Because there is no indication that Latin remained longer united with Sanskrit than any of the other Aryan languages, or that Latin could have borrowed such a word from Sanskrit, after these two languages had once become distinct. We have, however, the Lithuanian ugnìs, and the Scottish ingle, to show that the Slavonic and possibly the Teutonic languages also, knew the same word for fire, though they replaced it in time by other words. Words, like all other things, will die, and why they should live on in one soil and wither away and perish in another, is not always easy to say. What has become of ignis, for instance, in all the Romance languages? It has withered away and perished, probably because, after losing its final unaccentuated syllable, it became awkward to pronounce; and another word, focus, which in Latin meant fireplace, hearth, altar, has taken its place.

Suppose we wanted to know whether the ancient Aryans before their separation knew the mouse: we should only have to consult the principal Aryan dictionaries, and we should find in Sanskrit mûsh, in Greek μῦς, in Latin mus, in Old Slavonic my̌se, in Old High German mûs, enabling us to say that, at a time so distant from us that we feel inclined to measure it by Indian rather than by our own chronology, the mouse was known, that is, was named, was conceived and recognized as a species of its own, not to be confounded with any other vermin.

And if we were to ask whether the enemy of the mouse, the cat, was known at the same distant time, we should feel justified in saying deciddecidedly, No. The cat is called in Sanskrit mârgâra and vidâla. In Greek and Latin the words usually given as names of the cat, γαλἑη and αἴλουρος, mustella and feles, did not originally signify the tame cat, but the weasel or marten. The name for the real cat in Greek was κἁττα, in Latin catus, and these words have supplied the names for cat in all the Teutonic, Slavonic, and Celtic languages. The animal itself, so far as we know at present, came to Europe from Egypt, where it had been worshipped for centuries and tamed; and as this arrival probably dates from the fourth century a.d., we can well understand that no common name for it could have existed when the Aryan nations separated.[15]


In this way a more or lees complete picture of the state of civilization, previous to the Aryan Separation, can be and has been reconstructed, like a mosaic put together with the fragments of ancient stones; and I doubt whether, in tracing the history of the human mind, we shall ever reach to a lower stratum than that which is revealed to us by the converging rays of the different Aryan languages.

Nor is that all; for even that Proto-Aryan language, as it has been reconstructed from the ruins scattered about in India, Greece, Italy, and Germany, is clearly the result of a long, long process of thought.

Prof.Maxmuller Historian

Reply
Dr Shailesh G
12/3/2015 05:23:14 pm

I hope you and your compatriots come with more honest and revealing acknowledgements, Sure if you KNOW, the basis of this similarity. Although we still haven't got all similarities on board here. Can we have 'em please? I'd love to know more. Thx.

Reply
Vinod C
11/27/2016 11:36:48 am

Worthwhile to read India in Greece by E.Pococke

Reply
HistoryLover
2/5/2017 04:36:46 pm

Vinod C,

I can't thank you enough for the great recommendation. This is a treasure.

Reply
Manik Ghoshal
5/15/2017 06:00:35 pm

I invite everyone to read my blog on Amazon.com. Buddhism spread to Syria, Macedonia, and Egypt in 250 BC during the reign of Ashoka the Great, emperor of South Asia. In fact it may have travelled in 350 BC with Alexander. There is the mention of an Indian monk called 'Kaalu' who was taken by the Greeks to the Middle East/ Europe. They were generally called Gymnosophists. Now, these guys were taken to teach Indian religion and philosophy and not to learn Greek philosophy.

https://www.amazon.com/forum/religion?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1M9TK6UGAX6EO&cdThread=Tx13YGIOQSANFP9

Reply
Dr.Chith
9/5/2017 04:34:37 am

India is more than 15000 years old civilization. Europe believed in Church and the Bible. As per the Bible world came into existence around 5000 years ago. So English could not think beyond 5000 years and fitted the Indian history in that framework. See who wrote Indian history ? Not even a single Indian was allowed to do that till recent years. Indian history depend heavily on a book written by a man who never visited India in his entire life. Even an average westerner cannot comprehend India's deep philosophy and its meaning. Pythagoras theorem was in India 1000 years before Pythagoras. All the geometric figures have Indian Sanskrit names such as Trikona for triangle. Gola for circle, Varg for square, Andakrathi for oval, thara for Star shape and it goes on and on. I wonder why one imagine that one can find science in Greek only. The first treatment method in the whole world was Ayurveda , a part of Indian vedic literature. All realms of science is covered by India , even inter galactic flights. Indian scientists were sages with extra sensory wisdom. With that they calculated distance between stars and shape of astral bodies (Khagola sastra). Indians knew speed of light and value of Pi and Indian music is composed in a way that it directly affects the body and mind of the listener.It is so vast that western music has to work thousands of years to compete with it. Indians knew the life time of this universe and how to live a life in harmony with it. Only India knows what lies after death and what happens after death.. The inventions made by Ramanuja , a mathematical giant of India, could not be understood even by Einstein. ONly today its been found out that his equations prove some complicated theories about black holes.You should understand that India was there 15000 years before and it still exists. This itself is the proof to its inbuilt intelligence to survive any kind of circumstances.

Reply
Reply
11/4/2017 10:16:59 am

15000 years? Sorry, The first 'civilisation in India was the Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC) or Harappan Civilisation, a Bronze Age civilisation (3300–1300 BCE; mature period 2600–1900 BCE) mainly in the northwestern regions of South Asia, extending from what today is northeast Afghanistan to Pakistan and northwest India. In Greece around the same time - Minoan and Helladic Civilisations around 3650/3200-1170/1050 BCE.
As for Pythgoras' theroem - Although it is often argued that knowledge of the theorem predates him, the theorem is named after the ancient Greek mathematician Pythagoras (c. 570–495 BC) as it is he who, by tradition, is credited with its first recorded proof. There is some evidence that Babylonian mathematicians understood the formula, although little of it indicates an application within a mathematical framework. Mesopotamian, Indian and Chinese mathematicians all discovered the theorem independently and, in some cases, provided proofs for special cases.
It's obvious you are very passionate about this topic and India seemingly as the originator of all knowledge.
Good luck to you.

Reply
Manik Ghoshal
11/6/2017 04:57:41 pm

Have you heard of the ICE AGE? (35,000- 10’000 years ago?) So where do you think the Europeans appeared from? I believe they went from West India/ Sindhu-Saraswati River Valley. Read about Mehergarh from Sindhu (Indus) River valley- they were doing root-canal treatment 8000-10,000 years ago. That’s the period the Sanskrit Vedas were written. The Harrapan civilisation on the banks of Saraswati ended in 2000 BC when the River changed course and dried up.
I suggest wash away all white-supremacist propaganda and wake up to reality. You guys are descendants from Indian civilisation which had an uninterrupted run for up to 50,000 years- no Ice Age in Indian subcontinent, no miles of Ice like in Europe. Sorry to tell you, you are sons of black and brown people who have gone pale in cold Europe over last 5-6 thousand years. 😩😳😁😁😂😂

Manik Ghoshal
12/22/2017 01:59:42 am

All skeptics about the antiquity of Indian Sciebtific wisdom, and superiority of the people of India (Douth Asian region) must google search Mehergarh- an ancient archeological sight of the IVC. Root- Canal treatment were done nearly 10,000 years ago. Show me any other Civilisation where this was done. The archaeologists were experts from France.

Manik Ghoshal
9/5/2017 05:52:37 am

The world not only got an injection of Indian philosophy but Christianity is pure Indian religion according to me.
During the reign of Ashoka the Great Buddhism was exported to Masedonoa, Egypt and Syria (according to 13th Rock Eddict of Ashoka- Google it). All the peace and love, celibacy of Jesus, John and Apostles, renunciation and social work, turning the other cheek, etc, were taught by Gautama Buddha 500 years earlier which was spread across the world around 250 BC by Ashoka- the Emperor of India.
Baptism in river Jordon is plainly and simply a dip in the 'holy river' to wash away sins. This has been practised in India for many thousands of years before Jesus, the Buddhist monk, was born. I shall write a book with all textual and other evidences soon- watch out for it.

Reply
Manik Ghoshal
9/5/2017 06:06:15 am

More over, entering 'The Kingdom of God' is to achieve Moksha of the Indian philosophy. It means deathlessness of the soul after death by coming out of the endless cycle of birth and rebirth. The criteria preached by Buddhist monks, Jesus, John the Washer, Paul, etc, are exactly the same as preached by Buddha and many other Indian sages - by getting rid of greed, anger, jealousy, revenge, attachment, riches and luxury, etc. These ideas were alien to Judaism which was much more materialistic where as Early Christianity was monastic and required renunciation (and celibacy for the monks).
There are many proofs - some of them very early - they are often called heresy or Gnosticism- but are the proofs of Indian influence in the MiddleEast. Jesus = Esseene = Buddhist

Reply
Manik Ghoshal
11/6/2017 04:58:33 pm

Have you heard of the ICE AGE? (35,000- 10’000 years ago?) So where do you think the Europeans appeared from? I believe they went from West India/ Sindhu-Saraswati River Valley. Read about Mehergarh from Sindhu (Indus) River valley- they were doing root-canal treatment 8000-10,000 years ago. That’s the period the Sanskrit Vedas were written. The Harrapan civilisation on the banks of Saraswati ended in 2000 BC when the River changed course and dried up.
I suggest wash away all white-supremacist propaganda and wake up to reality. You guys are descendants from Indian civilisation which had an uninterrupted run for up to 50,000 years- no Ice Age in Indian subcontinent, no miles of Ice like in Europe. Sorry to tell you, you are sons of black and brown people who have gone pale in cold Europe over last 5-6 thousand years. 😩😳😁😁😂😂

Reply
Kalpathy
6/14/2018 06:38:27 am

No one supposes any longer that Sanskrit was the common source of Greek, Latin, and Anglo-Saxon. This used to be said, but it has long been shown that Sanskrit is only a collateral branch of the same stem from which spring Greek, Latin, and Anglo-Saxon; and not only these, but all the Teutonic, all the Celtic, all the Slavonic languages, nay, the languages of Persia and Armenia also.
The process by which that ancient chapter of history was recovered is very simple. Take the words which occur in the same form and with the same meaning in all the seven branches of the Aryan family, and you have in them the most genuine and trustworthy records in which to read the thoughts of our true ancestors, before they had become Hindus, or Persians, or Greeks, or Romans, or Celts, or Teutons, or Slaves. Of course, some of these ancient charters may have been lost in one or other of these seven branches of the Aryan family, but even then, if they are found in six, or five, or four, or three, or even two only of its original branches, the probability remains, unless we can prove a later historical contact between these languages, that these words existed before the great Aryan Separation. If we find agni, meaning fire, in Sanskrit, and ignis, meaning fire, in Latin, we may safely conclude that fire was known to the undivided Aryans, even if no trace of the same name of fire occurred anywhere else. And why? Because there is no indication that Latin remained longer united with Sanskrit than any of the other Aryan languages, or that Latin could have borrowed such a word from Sanskrit, after these two languages had once become distinct. We have, however, the Lithuanian ugnìs, and the Scottish ingle, to show that the Slavonic and possibly the Teutonic languages also, knew the same word for fire, though they replaced it in time by other words. Words, like all other things, will die, and why they should live on in one soil and wither away and perish in another, is not always easy to say. What has become of ignis, for instance, in all the Romance languages? It has withered away and perished, probably because, after losing its final unaccentuated syllable, it became awkward to pronounce; and another word, focus, which in Latin meant fireplace, hearth, altar, has taken its place.

Suppose we wanted to know whether the ancient Aryans before their separation knew the mouse: we should only have to consult the principal Aryan dictionaries, and we should find in Sanskrit mûsh, in Greek μῦς, in Latin mus, in Old Slavonic my̌se, in Old High German mûs, enabling us to say that, at a time so distant from us that we feel inclined to measure it by Indian rather than by our own chronology, the mouse was known, that is, was named, was conceived and recognized as a species of its own, not to be confounded with any other vermin.

And if we were to ask whether the enemy of the mouse, the cat, was known at the same distant time, we should feel justified in saying deciddecidedly, No. The cat is called in Sanskrit mârgâra and vidâla. In Greek and Latin the words usually given as names of the cat, γαλἑη and αἴλουρος, mustella and feles, did not originally signify the tame cat, but the weasel or marten. The name for the real cat in Greek was κἁττα, in Latin catus, and these words have supplied the names for cat in all the Teutonic, Slavonic, and Celtic languages. The animal itself, so far as we know at present, came to Europe from Egypt, where it had been worshipped for centuries and tamed; and as this arrival probably dates from the fourth century a.d., we can well understand that no common name for it could have existed when the Aryan nations separated.[15]


In this way a more or lees complete picture of the state of civilization, previous to the Aryan Separation, can be and has been reconstructed, like a mosaic put together with the fragments of ancient stones; and I doubt whether, in tracing the history of the human mind, we shall ever reach to a lower stratum than that which is revealed to us by the converging rays of the different Aryan languages.

Nor is that all; for even that Proto-Aryan language, as it has been reconstructed from the ruins scattered about in India, Greece, Italy, and Germany, is clearly the result of a long, long process of thought.

Prof.Maxmuller

Reply
Raman Sehgal
6/21/2018 06:26:22 am

As per American Mathematician scholar Seidenberg - Algebra and Geometry originated from Vedic Rituals - Sulba Sutras and then it went to Babylonia - Greece.

https://www.scribd.com/document/132646695/Seidenberg-The-Origin-of-Mathematics-DOCTYPE-HTML-PUBLIC-W3C-DTD-HTML-4-01-Transitional-EN-http-www-w3-org-TR-html4-loose-dtd-HTML-H

Reply
Alistair
3/13/2019 10:23:52 am

It’s worth mentioning that although there may not be an appropriate place for Siva in the Greek pantheon, the iconic image of the ecstatic dancing shiva, or Nataraj, which symbolizes the unending cycle of destruction/death and creation/rebirth is clearly a mnemonic device to communicate much of the same concept put forth by Pythagoras’ contemporary, Heraclitus, that everything is in flux and the only constant is change.

Reply
Edward link
4/15/2019 08:35:36 pm

Hindu priest here. Not much to add to the extensive comments here, and I doubt anyone will get down on the page far enough to read this, but I have recently been studying Greek philosophy (Pre-Socratic and Hellenistic) and I am shocked by the similarities.

At first I was reading the Cynics and Epicureans and was astonished at the aspiration towards detachment and equanimity. The Cynics seem modeled on the Indian Yogis. Then I read the Stoics and was blown away. It is so close to the Bhagavad Gita that I am convinced there must be definite direct connections.

Some in the comments section have been emphasizing very ancient connections as seen through similar gods and language, but the similarity with later Greek philosophers is so astounding, there must have been a direct transference of philosophy, perhaps through Persia.

Megasthenes travelled to India when Zeno began his preaching in his portico.

Reply
Alistair link
4/16/2019 12:15:49 am

Edward. Thanks for your thoughtful response (and the others above). Regarding the Stoics, I’ve had the same impression but it sounds as though you’ve read the Stoics recently. Could you give particular examples of the similarities between the ideas of the Stoics and the Bhavaghad Gita?

Not a Stoic, Pythagorus’ ideas regarding transmigration of the souls couldn’t really be closer to Hinduism.

Regarding the how Ancient Greek philosophers came to share so many ideas similar to the Hindus I think more discussion needs to be had regarding the ingredients of bronze, without which the Bronze Age in the Mediterranean wouldn’t have happened at the pace it did.

Bronze is 90% copper. This was mined in Cypres. The remaining 10% is tin. The vast majority of tin used to create bronze that fueled the development of Ancient Greek societies was found in the Indus Valley.

That should make anyone pause who thinks ‘it all began’ with the Ancient Greeks.

Evidence of religious practice dates back to 5500 BCE...

Reply
IdPnSD link
10/27/2019 02:37:14 pm

Take a look at the Vedic Theory chapter in the free ebook Soul Theory at https://theoryofsouls.wordpress.com/

An archaeological discovery, 120 feet below ocean surface, and about 25 miles from shore, in the Gulf of Cambay in the west coast of India could be over 9000 years old, according to scientists. Remains of these two large cities, each of the size of Manhattan in New York, predate the oldest remains discovered in India.

Some pottery pieces were collected and tested by using OSL method at the Oxford university dating laboratory. They produced dates in the range of 24,000 to 30,000 years old. Take a look at many references mentioned in that book. There are also ocean water level simulation results, which confirm similar dates. Satellite radar imaging data of the Sarswati river bank confirm the existence of the rivers described in Vedas. Thus it can be safely said that Mahabharat period (Dwarka Cities) was older than 10,000 years.

Moreover, all major ideas of Vedas can be found in Bible and since Bible originated from the books of Judaism, it is expected that these ideas are present in them also. For example, Destiny concept is present in Bible. Reincarnation was there in Bible, but was removed later.

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        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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