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Did Rip Van Winkle Get Abducted by Aliens?

7/6/2014

62 Comments

 
Did Rip Van Winkle get abducted by aliens? More importantly, why would anyone jump to that conclusion? The answer is a case study in how preexisting beliefs can prejudice an investigation and lead to false confirmation of an alien abduction narrative. This story is particularly interesting to me because it involves upstate New York, where I live and work.
Cheryl Costa is the UFO correspondent for the Syracuse New Times, an alternative newsweekly targeting upscale and affluent readers in central New York State. According to a recent article she published, in the fall of 2013, Costa was a student in a college literature class and had been assigned to write a term paper on one. She selected Washington Irving’s “Rip Van Winkle,” the famous 1819 story in which the title character tries to escape his wife’s nagging by escaping into the hills. There, he encounters the ghosts of Henry Hudson’s crew, thunderously playing nine-pins. He drinks their liquor, falls asleep, and awakens twenty years later with a foot-long beard.

This immediately suggested to Costa that the story had alien origins.
For my term paper, I proposed to my Literature professor that Rip Van Winkle read like a modern alien abduction account. I pointed out that the Hudson valley had been a hot bed for UFO activity for decades, perhaps centuries. I explained that I was of the opinion that the Washington Irving story might be based on some older Hudson Valley folk tale or Native American story.
Superficially, this wasn’t a bad idea. Although Costa said her professor could find no academic research on the subject, Thomas E. Bullard wrote a similar piece (though not on Van Winkle) on “UFO Abduction Reports: The Supernatural Kidnap Narrative Returns in Technological Guise” in the Journal of American Folklore in 1989, and before that Jacques Vallée also noted the parallels between folklore related to abductions in Passport to Magonia (1969).

But Costa began with the assumption that the UFO phenomenon is real, and therefore her analysis slowly but methodically derailed.

She begins well enough by recognizing, as scholars have since the early 1800s, that “Rip Van Winkle” is a fairly straightforward Americanization of the German folk tale “Peter the Goatherd,” which is a charming little story but one that should immediately suggest a solution to the mystery rather than a confirmation of aliens. Irving was well-read and may have encountered the story in the form published by Johann C. C. Nachtigal in 1800. He probably encountered the book during his tour of Europe from 1804 to 1806. Since the story is rather short, let me present it as it was translated in 1828 (I will spare you the italics and present it in roman for easier reading):
Picture
At the peaceful village of Sittendorf dwelt Peter Klaus, the goatherd. He daily tended his flocks to pasture in the Kyffhäusen mountains, and never failed, as evening approached, to muster them in a little mead, surrounded by a stone wall, preparatory to driving them home; for some time, however, he had observed, that one of the finest of his herd regularly disappeared soon after coming to this nook, and did not join her companions till late. One night, watching her attentively, he remarked that she slipped through a hole or opening in the wall, on which he cautiously crept after the animal, and found she was in a cave, busily engaged in gleaning the grains of corn that fell down singly from the roof. Peter did not look long before the shower of corn that now saluted him made him shake his ears, and inflamed his curiosity the more to discover the cause of so singular an occurrence in that out-of-the-way place. However, at last he heard the neigh and stamping of horses, apparently proceed from above; and it was doubtless from their mangers that the oats had fallen.

While standing, still wrapped in amazement at the singularity of the adventure, Peter's surprise was not diminished on observing a boy, who, without saying a word, silently beckoned him to follow. Peter mechanically obeyed the gestures of the lad, and ascended some steps, which led over a walled court into a hollow place, completely surrounded on all sides by lofty rocks, and crowned by the rich foliage of shrubs, through which an imperfect twilight displayed a smooth, well-trimmed lawn, that formed the ground he stood upon. Here were twelve knights, who, without so much as uttering a syllable, were very gravely playing at nine-pins; and as silently was Peter inducted into the office of assistant, namely, in setting up these nine-pins. Peter's courage was none of the strongest during all this time, and his knees smote each other most devoutly as he commenced his duties; while he occasionally ventured to steal a glance at the venerable knights, whose long beards and antique slashed doublets filled him with profound awe.

His fears, however, began to be on the wane, as he became more accustomed to his new employment. Indeed, he went so far as to gaze on one of the noble knights straight in the face—nay, even at last ventured to sip out of a bowl of wine that stood near him, which diffused a most delicious odour around. He found this sip so invigorating, that he soon took a somewhat longer pull; and in a short time Peter had quite forgotten that such things as Sittendorf, Wife, or Goats had ever existed; and on finding himself the least weary, he had only to apply to the never-failing goblet. At last he fell fast asleep.

On waking, Peter found he was in the same little enclosure where he was wont to count his flocks. He shook himself well, and rubbed his eyes; but neither dog nor goats were to be seen; and he was astonished in no slight degree to observe that he was nearly surrounded with high grass, and trees, and shrubs, which he never before remarked, growing about that spot. Lost in perplexity, he followed his way to all the different haunts he had frequented with his herds, but no traces of them were to be discovered; at last he hastily bent his steps to Sittendorf, which lay beneath.

The persons whom he met on his way to the village were all strangers to him; they were differently dressed, and did not precisely speak the language of his acquaintance; and on inquiring after his goats, all stared and touched their chins. At last he mechanically did the same, but what was his surprise when he found his beard lengthened at least a foot; on which he began to conclude that he and those around him were all under the influence of magic or enchantment. Yet the mountain he had descended was certainly the Kyffhäusen—the cottages, too, with their gardens and enclosures, were all quite familiar to him—and he heard some boys reply to the passing questions of a traveller, that it was Sittendorf.

His doubt and perplexity now increased every moment, and he quickened his steps towards his own dwelling; he hardly knew it, it was so much decayed; and before the door lay a strange goatherd's boy, with a dog apparently at the last extreme of age, that snarled when he spoke to him. He entered the house through an opening, which had formerly been closed by a door. All was waste and void within; he staggered out as if he had lost his senses, calling on his wife and children by their names; but no one heard—none answered. Before long, a crowd of women and children had collected around the strange old man, with the long hoary beard, and all inquired what it was he was seeking after. This was almost too much; to be thus questioned before his own door was more than strange, and he felt ashamed to ask after his wife and children, or even of himself; but to get rid of his querists he mentioned the first name that occurred to him, "Kurt Steffen?" The people looked around in silence, till at length an old woman said, "He has been in the churchyard these twelve years past, and you'll not go thither to-day."—"Velten Meier?"—"Heaven rest his soul!" replied an ancient dame, leaning on a crutch. "Heaven rest his soul! he has lain in the house he will never leave these fifteen years!"

The goatherd shuddered to recognise in the last speaker his next neighbour, who seemed all at once to have grown old; but he had lost all desire to inquire further. Suddenly a smart young woman pressed through the surrounding gapers, with an infant in her arms, and leading a girl about fourteen years old—all three the exact image of his wife. With greater surprise than ever he inquired her name. "Maria!"—"And your father's name?"—"Peter Klaus! Heaven rest his soul! It is now twenty years since his goats returned without him, and we sought for him in vain day and night in the Kyffhäusen mountains—I was then hardly seven years old."

Our goatherd could no longer contain himself. "I am Peter Klaus!" he roared, "I am Peter Klaus, and no one else!" and he caught the child from his daughter's arms. Every one, for an instant, stood as if petrified, till at length one voice, and another, and then another, exclaimed, "Yes, this is, indeed, Peter Klaus! welcome, neighbour! welcome, after twenty years!"
Do you see the solution? We’ll get to it in a moment. First, let’s see what Costa makes of the tale. She calculates that a foot-long beard takes 24 months to produce, so she therefore rejects the 20 year timeline. She then relates the return of Rip and Peter to the “missing time” reported by alien abductees like Betty and Barney Hill (themselves influenced by science fiction!). Naturally, this leads her to wonder how Einstein’s theory of relativity can apply here:
As I read the Rip Van Winkle/Peter Klaus stories, I see a character that was with the alien visitors for twenty-four months as evidenced by the natural record of his foot long beard growth. A person who returned to Earth where twenty years had passed.  Einstein’s “Theory of Special Relativity”, gives us the key to understanding how this is possible. If we travel near the speed of light. The person in the space craft ages at a slower rate than those of us back here on earth.
She concludes with the crackpot logic of Ancient Aliens: “Our ancient ancestors weren’t idiots; they are speaking to us through our ancient folks tales if we are willing take the time to look at these stories through modern eyes and interpretation.”

You will of course recall that Ancient Aliens did an episode on this very subject, called “The Time Travelers,” in which the ancient astronaut theorists similarly related folklore sleep narratives to Einstein’s time dilation. This was the episode that famously claimed that the story of the 66-year supernatural sleep of Abimelech in the extra-biblical 4 Baruch 5:1-29 was a biblical narrative.

Costa is obviously familiar with this episode and its claims.

I trust you can see that her preexisting belief in the reality of UFO abduction narratives has led her to interpret the “Peter the Goatherd” story as confirmation of the same. But her confidence in the extraterrestrial underpinning of the story led her to stop too soon, leading to a false conclusion of alien abduction.

The key to the story is its location, the Kyffhäusen. That is one of the most important localized traditions of the widespread European myth of the sleeping king. At this particular place, the Emperor Frederick Barbarossa was said to sleep with his attendants until such time as he is needed. Versions of the story are also told of Charlemagne, King Wenzel, Holgar Danske, King Harold, the Duke of Monmouth, Byzantine Emperor Constantine XI, Portugal’s King Sebastian, and many others. These are localizations of what seems to have been originally a Germanic or Celtic myth associated with Odin, preserved in Greek interpretation by Plutarch, where Odin has been interpreted as Cronus, the onetime king of the gods: He wrote of “one island where Cronus is confined, guarded while he sleeps by Briareus; for his sleep has been devised as a bondage for him, and round about him are many demigods as attendants and servants” (De Defectu Oraculorum 18, trans. Frank Cole Babbitt).

As in the case of King Arthur, these servants were usually twelve in number, answering to the twelve men seen by Peter.

The corollary to this myth is that the sleepers must be roused when the time is right. From this emerged stories that the tomb in which they slept (usually a cave in a mountain) opened once every seven years, or once a century, or some other period of time. And the sleepers would check to see if they were needed. From this derived stories of peasants who chanced upon the sleepers, who asked if it was time to wake. Because they were in a magic never-never land outside reality, these visits to the sleepers were often said to have seemed to last a few hours but to have taken hours, days, or even years. This seems to be a borrowing from fairy abduction myths, which typically involve an individual encountering dancing fairies, being taken to their home, and returning after a few hours only to discover that days or even years have passed.

“Peter the Goatherd” is a much later version of a traditional story, told of the Marquis John, standing in for Frederick Barbarossa. Edwin Sidney Hartland retells the story in his Science of Fairy-Tales, translating German accounts:
A peasant going with corn to market at Nordhausen, drove by the Kyffhäuser, where he was met by a little grey man, who asked him whither he was going, and offered to reward him if he would accompany him instead. The little grey man led him through a great gateway into the mountain till they came at last to a castle. There he took from the peasant his waggon and horses, and led him into a hall gorgeously illuminated and filled with people, where he was well entertained. At last the little grey man told him it was now time he went home, and rewarding him bountifully he led him forth. His waggon and horses were given to him again, and he trudged homeward well pleased. Arrived there, however, his wife opened her eyes wide to see him, for he had been absent a year, and she had long accounted him dead. It fared not quite so well with a journeyman joiner from Nordhausen, by name Thiele, who found the mountain open, as it is every seven years, and went in. There he saw the Marquis John (whoever he may have been), with his beard spreading over the table and his nails grown through it. Around the walls lay great wine-vats, whose hoops and wood had alike rolled away; but the wine had formed its own shell and was blood-red. A little drop remained in the wine-glass which stood before the Marquis John. The joiner made bold to drain it off, and thereupon fell asleep. When he awoke again he had slept for seven years in the mountain
The similarities, down to the intoxicating beverage, are obvious, but here the sleeping king elements are much more clearly presented. This version is older and betrays its origins. Other versions have no lost time but rather make the herdsman age rapidly as a result of his supernatural encounter.

If you’re interested, the Brothers Grimm recorded simpler versions of the legend of Kyffhäuser that are probably closer to the version from before it incorporated the fairy motifs. The very presence of such variants immediately casts doubt on the more elaborate time-lapse versions as literal truth, since they are coequal with these other variants. I translate from the Grimms’ Deutschen Sagen no. 23:
In 1669, a farmer who wanted to haul his grain from the village of Reblingen to Nordhausen was led into the mountain by a little man, who told him to empty out his grain and to fill the bags with gold. He saw the Emperor sitting, but quite motionless.

Also, the dwarf once led inside a shepherd who whistled a song that pleased the Emperor. The Emperor stood up and asked, “Do ravens fly still around the mountain?” And upon the affirmation of the shepherd, he shouted, “Now I must sleep a hundred years longer.”
Hartland was also of the opinion that “Rip Van Winkle” was a huge rip-off of “Peter the Goatherd.” In Science Hartland records dozens of similar stories—an ancient fairy-tale motif that entered into the sleeping king legend cycle from earlier stories of fairy abductions. That’s why the mysterious men are actively playing games in the “Peter” and “Rip” tales—they have become conflated with the mischievous fairies!

And here we can conclude that the “Peter the Goatherd” story is not one of alien abduction since it is a late addition to the broader sleeping king myth, one taken from fairy abduction legends. But by presupposing that myths are eyewitness account of aliens, Costa missed the origins of the specific tale she sought to illuminate.

Hartland’s Chapter VII and Chapter VIII are dedicated to the supernatural lapse of time in the land of the fairies (or the gods). The motif is well-nigh universal, known not just from Europe but also in the East, including (as mentioned) the story of Abimelech as well as the famous tale of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus; even in the oldest literary source, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Utnapishtim and Gilgamesh cannot age while in the Dilmun of the gods. Now at this point one might try to apply the alien abduction motif again—as indeed Thomas Bullard and Jacques Vallée have done. But there is nothing that should prejudice us in favor of aliens, there being no evidence that any such beings exist on the earth now or ever did. It is the very fact that ufologists try to impose their paradigm on these stories that makes them seem like alien abductions. We could, with equal weight of evidence, claim that “aliens” are really fairies. It is our perceptions that give shape to the stories.

62 Comments
Gregor
7/6/2014 03:35:37 am

I always love it when they trot out the ailing "our ancestors weren't stupid" argument, especially since I've never heard anyone utter the impetus (i.e. calling our collective ancestors "stupid"). They never seem to realize that all of our understandings of ancient (or merely "old") texts passes through a number of filters to make it intelligible to modern readers. Even some 400 years ago "English" would be difficult (at best) for any of us to read and understand as the author intended. That's NOT to suggest that translations or translators are wrong, rather to point out that such "secret messages from long ago!" arguments are akin to going to a botanical garden and marveling at the "beauty of nature", willfully ignoring the fact that a team of gardeners has to tend that plot to translate wild growth into something the average person enjoys.

More's the pity, as our links to such texts depend on as sturdy a chain of honest, accurate academic study as we can muster... and along comes a gaggle of idiots muddying the waters with their uninformed ramblings.

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Clint Knapp
7/6/2014 07:09:11 am

Even beyond the "not stupid" comments, perhaps the second most popular meme amongst the ancient astronaut pontiffs is that our ancestors "wrote what they saw", that they don't have the imagination to dream up tales of big birds or giant lizards, they're just recording exactly what they saw but "in terms they understood".

One of my favorite examples is the so-called Piasa Bird, being just down the river from me outside of Alton, Illinois. The Piasa Bird does not exist anymore. Anyone who knows the region knows it's all limestone bluffs, and limestone is probably the worst medium to work in. The current tourist-trap is a recreation based on 19th century sketches and descriptions. George Noory of Coast to Coast, probably without ever laying eyes on the thing, is fond of claiming it's a big bird (it's really not, it's more a chimeric creature) and our Native ancestors could only have drawn a bird this big if they'd seen it. But then, why should we expect a man with a lengthy journalistic background to actually do his due-diligence when he could just take any third-hand bullshit his guests are spewing?

That's right. Native Americans couldn't have possibly imagined a big bird. Just like Scott Wolter and company would like use to believe they couldn't have piled dirt in animal shapes. It's demeaning, absurd, and arrogant in the extreme.

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Varika
7/6/2014 09:01:25 am

" Even some 400 years ago "English" would be difficult (at best) for any of us to read and understand as the author intended."

Agreed. Witness how difficult it is for modern readers to read and understand Shakespeare even as a narrative without help--much less get all of what we now call "pop culture" references. And Shakespeare is the one who's pervasive in our modern culture, at that! As one student in my high school English class called out once, "I know what each word means, but the sentence doesn't make SENSE!"

Context is everything. It's what makes me want to rage every time I read Dan Brown now.

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EP
7/6/2014 09:56:08 am

Personally, I don't find Shakespeare "difficult to understand" (certainly not as a narrative!). I mean, it's not as easy as this blog, but I don't have more difficulty understanding Shakespeare than I do certain rap songs or Joyce's Ulysses. Shakespeare's English is the same language we speak. The same cannot be said of Chaucer, for example.

But this is neither here nor there in situations where mistranslation or misunderstanding of a single word may have far-reaching interpretative implications. Combined with confirmation bias, this has often set off chain reactions of great significance, and not only among marginal researchers...

666
7/6/2014 10:42:28 am

>>>makes me want to rage every time I read Dan Brown<<<

Jesus, had he existed, would have been a lifelong virgin. That would have been another one of his miracles.

666
7/6/2014 10:49:08 am

>>>my high school English class<<<

There are University Lecturers who take The Da Vinci Code seriously, and idolize The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail.

666
7/6/2014 10:51:06 am

>>>my high school English class<<<

>>>There are University Lecturers who take The Da Vinci Code seriously, and idolize The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail.<<<

And Music Directors in Evangelical Churches.

Varika
7/6/2014 03:17:37 pm

EP, there are quite a lot of people who DO find Shakespeare difficult to read, and while Shakespeare's English is closer to modern English than Chaucer, take it from someone who hangs out with a crapton of reenactors, it's NOT the same. No, you don't have to take a class in "Shakespearean English" in order to read his stuff. But have you ever read a reproduction of an actual manuscript of his, or have you only read nice printed books where the spelling has been all nice and cleaned up for you, to conform to modern standards?

666, you're an idiot. There's no reason to suppose that Jesus would have been a virgin whether he ever got married or had kids or not, and those who take Dan Brown seriously have never taken even a basic art appreciation class in their lives and should be taken no more seriously than you.

EP
7/6/2014 03:36:21 pm

"there are quite a lot of people who DO find Shakespeare difficult to read"

That's why I said "personally".

"have you ever read a reproduction of an actual manuscript of his, or have you only read nice printed books where the spelling has been all nice and cleaned up for you, to conform to modern standards?"

I have read both, actually. As well as many other authors of that era (also both edited and unedited). I actually find it a huge pain in the ass to read the typography of the time, but if it's a clean reproduction I can do it no problem. While of course I don't understand everything 100% of the time, my difficulties aren't different from trying to understand a difficult text in contemporary English. Chaucer, on the other hand, when I read him in the original, feels like a distinct, though closely related language.

Note that I am not a professional Elizabethan scholar (though I "hang out" with and occasionally even hold my own against some). But that's my point - I don't need to be a scholar in order to read the writings of that period.

Now please tell me more about the expertise one can gain by hanging out with reenactors (cosplaying? LARPing?).

666
7/6/2014 08:17:27 pm

Varika, you're an idiot - for taking the historical existence of Jesus for granted

Only Me
7/7/2014 11:33:10 am

More low-grade troll fertilizer from 666.

Varika
7/7/2014 06:56:57 pm

666, I don't take the existence of Jesus for granted--however, we were discussing the premise of his virginity if he did exist, as per YOUR OWN WORDS. Clearly, you're too stupid to even read what you yourself have written. Go back to third grade and stop bothering the adults.

EP, you're being an arrogant snot. You are 100% not reading the same story that Elizabethans got from Shakespeare because you are not from that time period. I've already said TWICE that Elizabethan English is not as far separated from modern English as Chaucerian English. DUH, Chaucerian English is some 200-300 years older than Elizabethan English. That is not AT ALL the point that was being made or that I was responding to. The point is that Elizabethan English is still NOT the same as what we use today. For one, we have far more Spanish-origin words and acronyms in modern English, and any number of words that were around back then have slightly to entirely different meanings than they did then. And then there's the words that are obsolete or even entirely extinct in modern English that were common 400 years ago. The flow and pattern of language was entirely different at the time, too--not the grammar, but the way it sounded when spoken is awkward to the modern ear.

And your condescension toward reenactors is entirely unwarranted, since most are significantly better versed in the time and culture they reenact than you are. It's not COSPLAYING or LARPING, jackass. It is recreating a time period, and you certainly can't do that without knowing what you're talking about, now CAN you.

Can the attitude of superiority. You are not nearly as educated OR intelligent as you think you are.

EP
7/7/2014 08:26:47 pm

Varika, I won't challenge your suggestion that you know better than I do how educated or intelligent I am... though it only makes your accusations of arrogance all the more ironic.

If you're unwilling to take me at my word when I describe my personal experience reading Shakespeare... well, I guess I can learn to live with that...

Not only did I not claim that our English is exactly the same as Shakespeare's, but I compared the difficulty of reading him to that of understanding Joyce's Ulysses or some rap lyrics. All three are different from each other and from my idiolect of English. I also specifically disclaimed 100% comprehension or any special expertise.

Trust me, I am comfortable admitting that I've read many things I cannot say to have understood well at all, so I can tell the difference. But Shakespeare just isn't one of them.

You and I are not from Victorian England. Does that mean that we cannot understand Dickens? I don't know about you, but I can't get all pop culture references on 4chan. Does that mean that they don't speak the same langauge? I'm not entirely sure you have thought through the consequences of what you seem to be claiming...

I am delighted that you're acquainted with many people who are all more knowledgeable about Elizabethan England than I am and all of whom also happen to be reenactors. (Not cosplaying or LARPing? Then Renaissance fairs, perhaps?...)

666
7/8/2014 12:47:57 am

>>> Clearly, you're too stupid (from Varika)

This, coming from a Jimmy Frazer parrot...

Only Me
7/8/2014 12:52:40 am

More troll filler from 666.

Dave Lewis
7/6/2014 11:23:15 am

Assuming that the myth of the returning king goes way back in time, I wonder if that is where the early followers of Jesus got the idea of his future return. Of course Paul expected him to return before the last of that generation of followers had passed away.

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666
7/6/2014 11:34:49 am

>>>Assuming that the myth

Please provide references

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666
7/6/2014 11:41:18 am

>>>There is an interesting question here

No there isn't - all I see is the usual nebulous possibilities from a bucket of suppositions

Clint Knapp
7/6/2014 02:31:22 pm

Seriously, dude. Get over yourself. You're not even a good troll. Just a persistent one.

666
7/6/2014 08:09:08 pm

>>>You're not even a good troll<<<

You feed off coffee table books

Clint Knapp
7/7/2014 01:56:55 am

Feed off what now? Your unqualified, acerbic statements about people you've never met and know nothing about? Give it up.

Jason puts a lot of work and free time into this blog, and the other regularly-commenting visitors here enjoy a spirited discussion of the articles and all of the avenues they open. You seem to exist solely to run these people down, ridicule their beliefs even when those beliefs do not factor into the discussion, and refuse to acknowledge that you might be wrong about anything.

So I ask you to stop. Simple as that. Find some manners, form some coherent arguments that don't arise from your pathological disdain for Christianity, and have a little respect for your fellow man and the owner of this blog. You don't have to agree with everything, but you don't have to be an ass about it either.

Only Me
7/7/2014 11:37:05 am

Clint, after reading anything from 666, I find it helps to just imagine the duct tape going over his mouth.

Unlike him, I respect his beliefs that he is an inconsequential cosmic accident, whose existence is meaningless. From that context, why should anyone care what he has to say?

666
7/8/2014 12:28:14 am

>>>after reading anything from 666

I presume ONLY ME has a predestined purpose and fateful plan of existence making that person totally different from the rest of life on Planet Earth

666
7/8/2014 12:30:48 am

>>>So I ask you to stop

You're not even a sceptic. You criticise Fringe beliefs from the Christian perspective. It's all a part of Christianity versus Fringe Beliefs sectarianism that you belong to.

Only Me
7/8/2014 12:55:00 am

You presume correctly. Everyone (except you, by your own admission) has a purpose.

666
7/8/2014 01:17:01 am

The purpose is subjective choice and not part of an overall universal blueprint plan

Only Me
7/8/2014 01:41:31 am

You are the one who implied that, not me.

If subjective choice means so much to you, why are you so intolerant of people who have made the choice to practice a faith? If life is meaningless, as you believe, why does their choice bother you so much?

You operate under the false assumption your opinion is the one that matters and no one else should think otherwise. Here's the thing, you don't have to justify your choice to NOT practice a faith...AND...no one who does has to justify their choice to you.

Clint Knapp
7/8/2014 01:59:04 am

Incorrect. I'm not a Christian. Never have claimed to be. I simply understand that the world is more complex than you're willing to allow it to be and can see quite clearly the impact and influence Christianity and other religions have had on the continuing evolution of civilization.

That's Cultural Anthropology 101. Ever taken an Anthro class? Or are those nasty academics too dogmatic and close-minded for your "freethinking" Google-spam education model?

Only Me, naturally it's useless to reason with a troll, but sometimes a troll just has to be dragged into the sun. It's amusing to watch them flail about until they either retreat to their caves or turn to stone.

666
7/8/2014 03:30:35 am

Being a believer corresponds with conviction and subjectivity.

666
7/8/2014 03:32:19 am

>>> sometimes a troll just has to be dragged into the sun

That's impossible in your case

666
7/8/2014 03:40:47 am

>>> the world is more complex

It's because of people like you
Because you can't see how simple and easy things are to understand

Only Me
7/8/2014 03:47:50 am

[Being a believer corresponds with conviction and subjectivity.]

I see. You can't actually answer my questions, though I'm not surprised. It seems irony is lost on you, as the majority of your comments are subjective opinion spoken with conviction.

So, you are cut from the same cloth as Scott Wolter and the talking heads of Ancient Aliens: you have something you're trying to sell from the back of your dung-laden cart and experience righteous indignation when no one is interested in buying. It absolutely chaps your ass that the rest of the world won't fall in lockstep with your limited worldview. Got it.

666
7/8/2014 03:53:22 am

>>> Got it

You'll never get it

Only Me
7/8/2014 04:07:34 am

That was subjectively spoken with conviction. Now go away, kookie britches, you're old news.

666
7/8/2014 04:12:05 am

At least I'm not tied to hogwash and humbug

Only Me
7/8/2014 04:35:57 am

Yet another subjective opinion. Here's one of my own: everything you say is hogwash and humbug.

Clint Knapp
7/8/2014 06:06:43 am

You are inexorably linked to that 'hogwash and humbug' in that your entire identity- or at least that which you have decided to display here in public- is built around rejecting it. You've bought so far into your own notions of what's right and wrong, true and false, that you become locked into this pathetic trapped-animal mode of lashing out wildly against anyone who disagrees with you or appears to hold a belief you do not.

You refuse to accept that any opinion but yours could possibly be correct. You are a religious zealot. Plain and simple. Your religion is Anti-Christianity. Not quite Satanism, which would invert the teachings of Christianity, just Anti-Christianity- an outright rejection built on nothing but the writings of people who agree with you. It's not even Nihilism, because you obviously believe in something- your own rightness.

Perhaps one day you'll grow up and understand that the world doesn't work the way you think it does. Maybe you'll enjoy a long and fruitful education in one of the sciences that you pretend to know so well. Perhaps in that unforeseen future you'll come back here and have something worthwhile to say. Until then, I wish you luck in your endeavors to use Google to make your cries for attention seem relevant.

666
7/8/2014 06:22:48 am

>>>to use Google to make your cries for attention seem relevant

I see plenty of your cherished material on Google
Google is only a search engine

EP
7/6/2014 11:37:35 am

There is an interesting question here, related to Jesus combining human and divine characteristics. On the one hand, Jesus as the Messiah (human even if ascended to Heaven), may have some connection with an earlier "hidden king" myth. However, it is more probable that many of the European versions of the myth (as well as, perhaps, those of some Muslim denominations) have been influenced by Christianity, rather than vice versa.

On the other hand, Jesus as a resurrected God and the leader of the final victory over evil echoes Egyptian cult on the one hand (Osiris), and Zoroastrian eschatology on the other (which was itself probably itself influenced by even earlier Hindu mythology). The shift from Jesus as Messiah to Jesus as the Avatar-King of the end of time corresponds with Christianity's shift from a Hebrew cult to a universal religion.

Reply
Gregor
7/6/2014 12:38:44 pm

I would say that "sleeping king" myths from Europe are probably more likely to be descended from their earlier, non-Christian belief structures (namely Wotan and his Valhal) than on any sort of oddball Christ-hood. In every version I've ever heard, the king myths reflect purely earthly issues (defense of the homeland, return of a golden age, etc.), not the purgation of the wicked (in a moral sense).

Ultimately, I think the trouble stems from the fact that virtually ever religion has stolen (sometimes wholesale) from those that came before it, including Judaism / Christianity

EP
7/6/2014 01:10:36 pm

Gregor, note that I was comparing the probabilities of early Christianity being influenced by Hidden King myths (Northern European or other) and vice versa. I wasn't saying anything about the influence of Wodan on modern European Hidden King folklore. And surely you wouldn't deny that it was influenced by Christianity as well as (and more immediately than!) by pre-Christian paganism.

Also, for what it's worth I'm under the impression that Woden/Odin's influence is usually located in other common elements European folklore - not in the Hidden King stories. And the Norse mythology of the Eddas certainly leaves little room for an Odin in hiding...

Gregor
7/6/2014 02:18:09 pm

-shrug- It's just my personal opinion. The bent of the Eddas depend on whether you read the originals, or those "edited" by Christians to interject a "king of kings"...otherwise they tend to be rather cyclical. In any case, I was saying that to me, the broad influence of a pagan faith (that allows for multiple heroes and mythological figures) and a "war chief" social structure strikes me as a more likely background for a "slumbering king" myth (in my experience, I've only heard of European variants a la Barbarossa - if there are others of distinctly non-European origin I'd find that pretty awesome) than the supposition that they likened kings to the literal god incarnate.

EP
7/6/2014 03:14:13 pm

Actually, I was talking about both versions of the Eddas. Not sure what you have in mind with your "cyclical" comment, but my understanding of Norse mythology is that it doesn't have anything like a temporarily absent God-King ruling over the end of time, such as those of the Hindus, Zoroastrians, Christians, etc.

I see what you're saying you were saying, even if I cannot see it in your original post :) But, again, I wasn't saying that the European legends of the Hidden King were influenced by the dogma of the Divinity of Jesus, merely that they may have been influenced by some parts of the Christian story of Jesus. Remember that Divinity of Jesus was a controversial topic in theology, contested for centuries as Christianity was spreading. Moreover, the missionary version heard by the common people was simplified and presumably adapted to the background of local folklore.

Besides, one needn't *believe* the story of Jesus in order to integrate it into one's prior background of folklore. One may go "cool story, bro", then drop a Norse-Christian remix at the proverbial campfire the next time.

666
7/6/2014 08:13:47 pm

How could a Northern European God-myth influence a Middle-Eastern myth like Christianity, steeped and modelled on the Old Testament?

This type of discussion of represents spamming.

666
7/6/2014 08:15:16 pm

All on the Jimmy Frazer level

I detect Jimmy Frazer

666
7/6/2014 08:26:38 pm

Let's say the Edda (circa 13th century) contains oral tradition dating back to the Viking Age - that would date it back to between 793 AD and 1066 in European history.

The Vikings must have had time machines in order for their myths to have been inspired by Christianity.

666
7/6/2014 08:28:59 pm

I mean the other way around - Christianity inspired by the Edda was the argument

>>>Assuming that the myth of the returning king goes way back in time, I wonder if that is where the early followers of Jesus got the idea of his future return.<<<



666
7/8/2014 12:43:18 am

>>>There is an interesting question here

No there isn't - all I see is nebulous suppositions coming from a bucket-load of possibilities

666
7/6/2014 11:39:51 am

>>>Of course Paul expected him to return

Just double checked this - Paul referred to the Coming, not the Return

Reply
Varika
7/6/2014 03:54:14 pm

Well, a little searching around found the myth of Endymion, from Greek mythology, who was in one story supposed to be the lover of Selene the moon goddess, and who chose to be put to sleep on a mountain rather than die and be separated from Selene. There are any number of deities who were being killed and reborn, from Odin and Baldur to Osiris, Dionysus, Adonis and a gazillion heroes in Greek mythology. The elements of the sleeping king myths are obviously very, very old. Some of them also clearly influenced Christianity; there are significant similarities between the Jesus stories and the stories of Osiris and of Dionysus, for instance. But whether you can call Revelations a "sleeping king" myth...I'm not as sure.

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666
7/6/2014 08:07:44 pm

That's right, a king fell in love with the Moon. If you believe in the New Testament, you're also prone to take this story seriously as well..

666
7/6/2014 08:21:00 pm

>>>there are significant similarities between the Jesus stories and the stories of Osiris and of Dionysus<<<

There you go - coffee table books - and Jimmy Frazer - this coming from someone calling other people idiots.

666
7/6/2014 08:36:22 pm

>>>there are significant similarities between the Jesus stories and the stories of Osiris and of Dionysus<<<

There are also significant and overwhelming differences. This is where Jimmy Frazer got it all wrong. Getting things out of context and cherry-picking, You know, the very same mistakes of Scott Wolter, Graham Hancock, Andy Collins, Philip Coppens, etc, etc, etc

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
7/7/2014 06:54:06 am

So, 666, if you don't believe a historical Jesus existed, and you don't believe that myths from other, neighboring cultures influenced the stories of a mythical Jesus, then where the heck DO you think Christianity came from?

666
7/8/2014 12:25:13 am

>>>where the heck DO you think Christianity came from?

For the umpteenth time - from the Son of Man theology found within the Book of Daniel. Christianity was a development of Apocalyptic eschatology

666
7/8/2014 12:36:32 am

Again I repeat, the New Testament literature is modelled on Old Testament literature - not from Mithraic mysteries, not from the rites of Dionysus/Bacchus, not from the rituals of Osiris where he was chopped up into 14 pieces and his resurrection depended upon the discovery of his penis by Isis, not on the rituals of Attis that was to do with Cybele, not on Gilgamesh who failed to find the fruit of immortality.

The New Testament is entirely dependant upon the Old Testament and was part of the development of pseudopigraphical apocalyptic echatalogical material as was demonstrated by R. H. Charles during the early 20th century.

Mandalore
7/8/2014 04:19:03 am

The New Testament being wholly dependent on Jewish scriptures is demonstrably false. It was written in Greek, a language and culture rejected by those apocalyptic groups like the Essenes that you imagine created Christianity. The Book of John was written by a Greek with little knowledge of Jewish culture, as evidenced by the sharp differences in how the author depicted Jesus compared to the Synoptic Gospels. Paul and eventually the Apostles (in the Acts of the Apostles and Paul's letters) rejected the applicability of Jewish law in favor of a universal approach more akin to philosophical ideas like Cynicism and mystery cults like Mithraism. Revelations was modeled on the Greek/Near Eastern hybrid Sibylline Oracles which likewise predicted a fall of the evil empire of Rome.

Obviously, Christianity owed its origins to Judaism and was heavily influenced by the centuries of Jewish faith and tradition. One could not exist without the other. But Christianity quickly divorced itself as can be seen in the progression of the Gospels from Mark, to Matthew and Luke, to John, alongside the Acts of the Apostles. However, there were many other factors as well.

666, your diehard obsession with 19th century Enlightenment scholars who rejected the historical Jesus is misguided. One would think that people hostile to Christians (in time Jews and Persian Zoroastrians) would have tried to make the argument that Jesus was fictional. But they did not. Instead they tried to discredit his status, like the story of the Roman Pantera being his father via rape. It is true that we are dependent on Christian texts concerning Jesus' existence, but that is no different from other historical figures. The scholarly consensus, and they can't all be Christian apologists, is that there was a person named Jesus. His life, teachings, and godhood are another matter. For comparison, all of the surviving sources for Alexander postdate him by centuries and are Roman (Arrian, Plutarch, Curtius Rufus, Diodorus, Justin). Nevertheless, Alexander's reality can be clearly inferred from these sources as well as the impact he had on the ancient world. Your virulent anti-Christian faith, whatever its origins, is not based on evidence but your own personal subjective beliefs. If you deny Jesus' existence, then there is no reason to believe that almost any historical figure existed. Acknowledging Jesus' existence, like the Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammad, or any other religious figure, does not necessitate belief in their message.

Of course, 666, all of this assumes you are sincere in your anti-Christian faith. You may just be a nasty troll just trying to pick fights for no reason. Eyes open.

666
7/8/2014 04:25:19 am

Mandalore, you can actually buy Bibles showing which New Testament passage is derived from which Old Testament passage. And similar works are available giving information relating to the Pseudopigrapha. All of the events in Jesus' "biography" find parallels in Old Testament texts.

It just does not matter that the New Testament was originally written in Greek. It does not affect anything in the slightest.

And that's only dealing with the opening part of your (over)long message.

666
7/8/2014 04:32:08 am

>>> like the Essenes that you imagine created Christianity

Mandalore, are you suggesting that the entire library of Qumran was Essene?

nablator
7/6/2014 08:48:06 pm

I wonder if there is any connection to this very similar Chinese/Japanese legend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranka_%28legend%29

Reply
666
7/7/2014 01:30:58 am

Charles Clemons mentioned it in 2008

Reply
.
7/7/2014 02:51:01 am

earlier, we have the cave of the 7 sleepers in turkey
http://www.ephesus.us/ephesus/sevensleepers.htm

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