Fred C. Woudhuizen is an independent Dutch scholar who has produced a number of obscure publications making a series of controversial claims to have deciphered hitherto unreadable texts to reveal surprising confirmation of Greek mythological traditions. He argued, for example, that the Phaistos Disc was in fact a letter written by the Luwians to Nestor, the king of Pylos in the Odyssey. In another, he argued that the otherwise indecipherable Etruscan language is in fact a patois of colonial Luwian. The Luwians, for what it’s worth, are his major interest, and his arguments, as one published review of his scholarship put it, are “alas, not very convincing.” A regular reader called my attention to a bizarre passage in his otherwise quite dull effort at the decipherment of Cretan hieroglyphics, another unreadable ancient tongue which preceded the more famous Linear A by a century and coexisted with that script throughout the Minoan period. In 2016, Woudhuizen not only claimed to read Cretan hieroglyphics but also to have found Atlantis in them! His argument is complex, and originates with his identification—different from other scholars’ views—of 85 Cretan hieroglyphs with Luwian counterparts, 22 with Egyptian ones, and 23 with Linear A characters. Having made these connections, he then proposes to read the Cretan hieroglyphs in light of their alleged linguistic cousins, producing a series of syllables that he interprets and translates as an Indo-European tongue, likely closely related to Luwian. To the best of my knowledge, his view of the subject is shared only by some others who hold the Luwians in an exalted position not generally found in mainstream scholarship. The argument, however, is not convincing since anyone who speaks more than one language can attest to the vast differences that even closely related words can take on in different cultures, contexts, and languages. But, for what it is worth, here is his argument for Atlantis via Cretan hieroglyphics. It begins with his decipherment of a supposed hieroglyphic “formula” as the word ta-ru-nu, based on alleged Luwian parallels, which he proceeds to transform through some assumptions and guesswork that allow him to change the sounds to better suit his mood. Basically, he gives himself permission to invert the order of sounds and swap consonants until the right reading comes out the other end: Being puzzled in the beginning, a solution seemed to present itself when I realized that according to Cretan writing devices the r-series is used to express the consonants [r] and [l] at the same time, whereas according to Luwian hieroglyphic scribal traditions syllables of CV type are equally applied to render VC sounds. In this manner, then, we may well arrive at the reading Atlunu, which resembles the mythical Atlantis from our literary sources too much to be dismissed as accidental! Considering the distribution of the findspots of the total amount of 116 seals with profane formulas—in so far as this is reported—, which particularly affects the northern zone of Crete between Knossos in the west and Kato Zakro in the east, but, since the discovery of the seal from Vrysinas near Rethymnon—so that the find from Kythera, # 267, can no longer be dismissed as an importation—may now reasonably be argued to have included the coastal zone of northern Crete in its entirety (see Fig. 12), our geographic name Atlunu is most likely to have a bearing on this particular region. He then identifies this region as that of Santorini and connects the Atlunu reading to the eruption of the Santorini/Thera volcano around 1600 BCE.
We “may well” read the text as Atlunu, or we may not. Since it is an assumption at the very beginning that the symbols are even Luwian, adding another layer of assumption about their meaning across cultures, and then a third layer of assumption about the permissibility of swapping sounds according to parallels from another culture’s scribal conventions is simply too much to give anything approaching plausibility to this castle in the clouds. Even if we did, what exactly does it prove? Atlantis is a genitive, a possessive form meaning “of Atlas.” The name of Plato’s island was Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος, “the island of Atlas.” This Atlas, according to Plato, was the son of Poseidon, but the same word was used to describe the possessions of the progeny of the Titan Atlas, including the island of Ogygia. While scholars are divided whether the name Atlas is of Proto-Indo-European or Pre-Greek origin, either way, it was almost certainly in existence in the Bronze Age and therefore hardly a shock even if by some chance its genitive form appeared in a Cretan inscription. The rest of his reconstruction is likely to be irrelevant. He argues that because signet rings with the same pattern were found in Akrotiri, the city buried in the Thera eruption, and at Hagia Triada and Sklavokambos on Crete, then we can conclude that Atlunu was a name current both on Crete and Santorini and therefore may have something to do with the geography of Minoan Crete, thus confirming the popular hypothesis on the origin of Atlantis. None of that follows logically from the proposition, and there is neither evidence that Atlunu is the correct reading or what if may have referred to.
129 Comments
frank
10/27/2018 11:21:21 am
With Fred C. Woudhuizen and Atlantis as a subject, we are sure that the "sea peoples" expert, T Franke, will visit and provide us with his historical-critical wisdom.
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Dan
10/27/2018 08:35:47 pm
Hey, J!
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Eirik Sinclair
10/29/2018 06:19:42 am
Did you know that super heroes are based on the race of people who were the original inhabitants of Peru? Men over 300 pounds were shipped to the Americas by Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus in 133 BC, then they mixed with skinny people to create super men and wonder women. It's called the Religion of Thor. It started with Alexander the Great in 323 BC, and ended in 791 AD at the Battle for Uppsala Sound in Sweden.
Eirik Sinclair
10/29/2018 06:29:33 am
The Andes mountains produced a lot of Andersons.
Eirik Sinclair
10/29/2018 06:07:23 am
Mr. Colavito, can you get your blog moved to aol.com or another home page to get more people involved? Let's get this party started!
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Hal
10/29/2018 02:15:40 pm
Brilliant!!!
Joe Scales
10/30/2018 09:50:13 am
Dumb, meet Dumber.
Americancool"Disco"dan
10/27/2018 11:44:44 am
It's sounds like he's pulling a Sitchin but with languages no one can read so his work is difficult to check. This takes Lilly's "If you want to be an expert, invent the territory" to a new level.
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AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/28/2018 05:51:15 am
I still think he's pulling a Sitchin, but...
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Machala
10/27/2018 01:24:38 pm
My recollections of Luwian scholarship and linguistic interpretation centered around Eberhard Zangger theories about the Luwain and their link as the "Sea Peoples". His ideas were largely mirrored by James Mellaarts' work and translations of the “Beyköy Texts”.
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Americancool"Disco"dan
10/27/2018 01:33:38 pm
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/russians-push-alien-peruvian-mummy-narrative-plus-forgery-scandal-calls-ancient-luwian-inscriptions-into-question
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Machala
10/27/2018 01:45:24 pm
Thanks. I'd forgotten Jason's coverage of this.
E.P. Grondine
10/28/2018 05:12:42 pm
Hello Machala -
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Kal
10/27/2018 05:20:40 pm
He might as well read tea leaves and descide he saw a letter A in there somewhere, for all the sense such a text would make. Clearly he can invent his own rules also. Nobody can dispute it because he made it up, unless you figure, he made it up. Not that he'll gain any fame from doing so. Also 'Lun' is in there, which sounds like loon. So there you go.
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Josef
11/14/2021 06:44:21 am
Please read Plato's argument on Solon visiting Sais in Egypt and being told by Psonchis the priest there on Atlantis. While Aristotle didn't believe Plato another of his students did for he visited Sais Heliopolis together with Plato in 395 BC. Proclus (410-485AD) wrote in his Comments on Plato's Timaeus that the first commentator on the work of Plato was Krantor. Plato at Sais met three Egyptian temple priests; Pateneit, Ochalpi and Ethimon who confirmed the Atlantis story in hieroglyphs on their temple coloumns. Sais is today a waste. Strabo confirmed Plato's account saying Atlantis was an island or group of large islands South of Sicily.
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I have known this idea of Woudhuizen about Atlantis for years (at least since 2008, but don't ask me from which publication of Woudhuizen), but I never have taken it very seriously. I was not aware, too, that Woudhuizen put so much emphasis on it. Maybe he only expressed it as a mere guess in the publication I know, and later put more emphasis on it? Anyway it is a bad idea.
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AmericanCool"disco"dan
10/27/2018 08:30:45 pm
So Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος means "Son of Atlas Island"?
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@American.....:
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/28/2018 09:51:30 am
In English "Son of Atlas Island" means "Island Named 'Son of Atlantis' ". Similarly with "Atlantis Thelassa" meaning "Sea Named Son of Atlantis".
@American........:
E.P. Grondine
10/28/2018 05:15:07 pm
It appears you're dealing with a locative in nthos
V
10/28/2018 10:16:47 pm
"But the island of Atlantis is clearly not the daughter of Atlas." I wouldn't be so sure, in Greek mythology. Thalassa, after all, was not only the sea but the primeval spirit embodying the sea. With nature spirits in so many things and places, "This island is the physical embodiment of the spirit of a Daughter of Atlas" would not be remotely out of place.
@V:
Eirik Sinclair
10/29/2018 07:57:39 am
Atlas island was not an island. It was in the Sahara Desert.
Reims
10/28/2018 12:31:47 pm
Did you want to make a point regarding the liquids? That seems like a lost thread.
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@Reims:
Josef
11/20/2021 09:36:14 am
... Interchangeable in those ancient languages just like the 'b' with 'p' and the 'q' with 'k' ...
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AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/28/2018 09:54:48 am
Should read:
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AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/28/2018 11:56:40 am
No it is not.
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/28/2018 02:19:04 pm
I say stuff like that when I make a mistake too.
Reims
10/28/2018 12:40:28 pm
Atlantis is from Atlas plus the suffix -is which is used for forming feminine nouns or feminine adjectival forms.
Reply
@Reims:
Reims
10/28/2018 02:42:12 pm
Dear T. Franke,
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/28/2018 03:08:04 pm
Gonna have to ask you to hold it right there, cowboy, You say "adjectives or nouns". I don't remember it working that way with nouns. The better argument is still that "Atlantis island" means "Island [named] Son of Atlas", i.e. noun in opposition.
Reims
10/28/2018 05:23:38 pm
Good thing you don't teach Classical Languages. American society would be even worse than it already is. Yes, you arrogant dimwits, even nouns in the genitive agree with the noun they determine, that's how Indo-European grammar works. The fact that English lost this doesn't mean that it wasn't (and it still is) the way it works for the majority of Indo-European languages, including Greek and Latin.
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/28/2018 09:22:06 pm
Gymnasium is what in the U.S. is called "High School"?
Americancool"Disco"Dan
10/29/2018 09:17:11 am
"Students are generally admitted at 10 (12) years of age and are required to have completed four years (six in Berlin and Brandenburg only) of grundschule (primary education)."
AmericanAlexandroRey
10/30/2018 05:36:09 am
Still high school. Was there buggery? Sorry Mister Master Race, I didn't mean to start a fight in the middle of your Nazi Party. As our revered teacher Spicoli once said "Those guys are fags!"
Frank
10/28/2018 03:31:06 pm
From a standpoint of a non-academic's view, it behooves all you "lingo" experts that it is useless to conjecture any foundation on the structure and grammar of any of the languages being discussed. Why? Because none of them are Atlantean.
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AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/28/2018 03:43:03 pm
"Therefore unless we have in our hands a bonafide and certified sufficient sample of Atlantean writing, alongside with one of the languages that we really know well, such as we have with the Rosetta stone, and with which it can be used to attempt a correct decoding and understanding of Atlantean, it is folly to carry on such petty argumentation on the meaning and grammatical structure of words such as Atlas, and Atlantis. Not to mention that it is total folly to ponder on it for years, and struggle with it, as some claim here."
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Frank
10/28/2018 04:05:30 pm
WHO is making that claim??? Herr Franke.
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan on Son of Atlas Island
10/28/2018 04:56:51 pm
"you will note that I only prophesied the coming of a "languages" specialist, the "Cretin," Herr Franke, on this thread. And, am I not a true prophet?"
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/28/2018 05:02:18 pm
"if you are familiar with 'Engrish' "
Americancool"disco"dan
10/28/2018 03:32:24 pm
"opposition" should read "apposition".
Reply
10/28/2018 05:26:56 pm
This looks to me like another imaginary Linear A reading. They are quite common.
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Americancw"Disco"Dan
10/28/2018 08:25:14 pm
Maya as the destruction of the wooden people."
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Dan
10/29/2018 12:43:41 am
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DYd57rkvnpQ
E.P. Grondine
10/29/2018 10:34:26 am
Let me repeat myself here again- you're an asshole.
Americancool"Disco"Dan
10/29/2018 12:18:07 pm
Because only Injuns git the beedees and strokes. Some fake Injun science reporter you are! Maybe you should eat some human pituitary glands and let your stomach acids chew them up. The real world analogy would be "suicide by cop" (not saying you shouldn't do that) but here you'll just be mocked for all eternity because you're a fake on many levels.
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan fake Injun hunter
10/30/2018 08:13:20 am
"I carry my DNA test results with me, and provide them on demand."
E.P. Grondine
10/31/2018 11:15:22 am
Ancestry by DNA, Tampa St Pete, DNA Print Genomics
Eirik Sinclair
10/29/2018 07:54:22 am
Not wooden people - it's W(odin) people. Shieldmaiden's.
Reply
"August" Frank
10/29/2018 09:32:46 am
@ DiscoDan
Reply
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/29/2018 10:24:52 am
What does Maltese teach us?
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E.P. Grondine
10/29/2018 10:54:00 am
@Frank -
Reply
E.P. Grondine
10/30/2018 11:36:52 am
@Franke -
@EP Grondine:
E.P. Grondine
10/31/2018 11:29:12 am
@Franke -
@EP Grondine:
Doc Rock
10/31/2018 01:53:42 pm
In anthropology the concept of myth is used in reference to the stories that a group tells about themselves and/or the world, generally with supernatural elements to them. Often used in reference to indigenous groups the term is also used in reference to the stories that a given ethnic group tells about its origins in a manner that does not necessarily involve supernatural elements.
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/31/2018 06:56:07 pm
"You can rule out a handing down over 10.000 years by oral tradition. Surely. There is no possibility for this, even with the art of writing."
Just for the interested reader:
Reply
Frank
10/29/2018 10:16:04 pm
At the 2008 Atlantis conference, which was titled, The Atlantis Hypothesis, Herr Franke presented two short papers.
FRANK is screwing up everything, as always.
AmericanCool"disco"dan
10/30/2018 09:39:42 am
"FRANK has serious problems with differentiations, nuances, etc. This may be the reason why he has radical political views, e.g. he is a white supremacist (or did I get this wrong?)"
Bezalel
10/30/2018 10:39:37 am
@ TFRANKE
August Frank
10/29/2018 11:19:11 am
As I have read in the Atlantis community, based on another village fool's claim, Maltese teaches us that Malta in the Etruscan tongue is Atlas spelled backwards, if we interpose the ending "s" as a beginning "M." Therefore Malta must be Plato's Atlantis, since Malta is an island, and more specifically, the island of Atlas, if we consider the consonant "s," to be a Masculine one, since the consonant M is also the symbol for the gender, masculine. And it takes a real Muscular man to move an Atlas along these Maltese lines, especially with what an Atlas bears on his shoulders; the weight of world/heavens. As Muscular and Man also begin with the consonant "m," and muscular is analogous with man, gender speaking, since a man is made out to be stronger than the feminine.
Reply
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/29/2018 01:23:07 pm
"As Muscular and Man also begin with the consonant "m," and muscular is analogous with man, gender speaking, since a man is made out to be stronger than the feminine."
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Frank
10/29/2018 09:06:33 pm
You sound like the infamous poster in these here neck of the woods, Americanegro. In fact you must be the same idiot. You do not know your vowels, nor your baby talk. All babies are born speaking Italian, as "ma" is not the same as "mo", as mo is the first syllable of the English word mother. Whereas "ma" is the first syllable of the Italian word mamma. And Mamma = Mother. You Disco Dan/Americanegro screwed up, or as we say, FU bro, where bro = frate with a long running consonant rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr up yours!
Americancol"Disco"Dan
10/30/2018 06:32:40 am
That was .... interesting. Where are you institutionalized?
Pops
10/30/2018 12:47:10 pm
Jason can you do something about Americanegro/ Disco Dan? He always makes the comment threads hellish. I prefer trolls to this guy by a long shot.
Reply
Americancool"Disco"Dan
10/30/2018 01:05:33 pm
I want to lick you, over and over. Where are you institutionalized?
Reply
I have to say some things in favour of AmericanPlunderHead:
Frank
10/30/2018 04:12:16 pm
T. Franke, you always get it wrong, whether on Atlantis, or on racial matters. You got it wrong, I'm no white supremacist. How could I be?, as I'm dark skinned, and not color blind to not notice my own color. Besides, I'm really a Platonic supremacist, if any supremacist at all. And this is primarily why I have a problem with you. You are a Platonic idiot, but thinking yourself superior to those other fools and their silly hypotheses on Plato's Atlantis. As I told you, you don't belong with the skeptics, and you are not welcomed with the Atlantologists. You are an overly applied historical-critical dunce. In other words, you outsmart yourself because you argue from both sides of the story. You use sources to make your arguments, which when looked at carefully, and in full, those same sources contradict and refute you fully. Your have no reason nor rhyme to your silly claims and propositions. You could become proficient in 50 more languages, and you would still be an educated idiot, as you do not know how to reason, nor do you posses self-honesty, and modesty. Although modesty would not be good for a needy man like you. You think too much of yourself, when you are but a little man in the world of Plato, mentally speaking. You cannot accept sound, logical contradiction which clearly proves you, and your silly hypothesis wrong. If you were redeemable in any way, and open to logical criticism, you could be made to see just how idiotic and totally illogical your hypothesis on Plato's Atlantis really is. But making you see these faults and errors of yours, is like trying to tell a mule to stop wasting his time and energy kicking at the flies pestering him, as it is futile.
Reply
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/30/2018 05:05:13 pm
To be fair, Mr. Franke DID go to high school.
Reply
@FRANK:
Reply
Joe Scales
10/30/2018 06:14:55 pm
So T. Franke is an idiot? Took you how many weeks to realize this? Well Frank, the longer you argue with an idiot, the harder it is to tell the difference.
Reply
@Joe Scales:
E.P. Grondine
10/31/2018 11:39:17 am
@Franke -
@EP Grondine:
E.P. Grondine
10/31/2018 01:39:41 pm
@Franke
FRANK re-discovered! The 2016 e-mails:
Reply
Frank
10/30/2018 08:39:30 pm
You are such a naive dunce, my dear Thorwald. This is precisely why you could not possibly ever hope to come anywhere near Plato. If you mistake the sarcasm I threw at you, as you are pointing out, as positive comments towards you, and I'm just a nobody without any comedy talent, how can you possibly hope to understand Socrates' irony, and Plato's sarcasm? These two gentlemen were at the top of their business, as far as using irony and sarcasm towards those that were so presumptuous of their self-believed wisdom. They were the sophists and men of high standing in the eyes of the general public. You, Franke, are a kind of sophist, an unsophisticated one, in that you believe yourself very wise, and above your Atlantology colleagues, but you are a very little and insignificant fool.
Reply
Dear FRANK,
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/30/2018 11:07:23 pm
Frank pointed out in the very first post that T. Franke would pollute this thread with his Atlantis nonsense.
Reply
Frank
10/31/2018 03:48:34 pm
Contrary to your assumed knowledge, Thorwald my friend, you don't know me from Adam, nor do you know Socrates, apparently. Think a thousand times on that.
Americancool"Disco"Dan
10/31/2018 05:44:10 pm
Two things Mr. Franke: You can copy and paste my name. If you don't I will start calling you Jewkiller.
Jim
10/30/2018 11:34:23 pm
Wolter alert ,,,,,,
Reply
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/31/2018 08:45:12 am
Yes, I saw that too. Wolter tries to play the sceptic while totally selling the scam. BUT HE HAD A BROTHER FREEMASON LOOK AT THE STUFF! Did you notice that the original "documents" have been thrown in the trash so are not available for examination? Or conservation or carbon dating? I guess that's just what one does with documents from the 14th century.
Reply
Jim
10/31/2018 10:35:57 am
Ya, I noted the convenient lack of evidence.
Jim
10/31/2018 10:42:40 am
" Diana became a professional genealogist at the age of 18 and has continued to do genealogy for over 40 years."
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/31/2018 10:54:09 am
Something that has puzzled me from the beginning is how a Norseman from the 14th century was able to write in modern English. This is the Canterbury Tales era. I may be calling Fraud 2 Electric Boogaloo on this one.
Jim
10/31/2018 11:17:08 am
Wolter claims she did a bang up job of translating the documents, even though there are no remaining documents to compare to.
Joe Scales
11/1/2018 03:49:56 pm
You know it's bad when even Anthony Warren questions it...
Frank
10/31/2018 11:16:34 am
Franke,
Reply
E.P. Grondine
10/31/2018 11:52:24 am
To paraphrase Plato, sometimes destruction comes FROM ABOVE, sometimes from below.
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@EP Grondine:
E.P. Grondine
11/1/2018 12:34:24 am
@Franke
@FRANK:
Reply
E.P. Grondine
10/31/2018 01:48:10 pm
@Franke
Frank
10/31/2018 04:07:07 pm
"You should leave the dream world you have built up, the sooner the better." There Franke, let me tell you about my dream world, before I leave you to your reality, which is the world of ignorance.
Americancool"Disco"Dan
10/31/2018 04:18:13 pm
You harp on this bullshit like Lyndon LaRouche and the Treaty of Westphalia. The sweet release of death cannot come soon enough.
Americancool"Disco"dan
10/31/2018 05:51:58 pm
"To paraphrase Plato, sometimes destruction comes FROM ABOVE, sometimes from below."
Reply
E.P. Grondine
10/31/2018 07:39:50 pm
Here you go, Shit for Brains -
Reply
Eirik Sinclair
11/1/2018 01:26:53 am
Bibble, babble, boo...
Reply
AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
11/1/2018 08:01:14 am
You went a long way to find the word "above" and you are a bitchy bitchlington with a fondness for profanity and under caution on Hallloween because of issues. What a creep. Impact event my ass. Don't offend again Chief!
Reply
E.P. Grondine
11/1/2018 10:51:52 am
Too much fun -
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Jim
11/1/2018 12:01:10 pm
So, who are we gonna believe, NASA, or some guy who peddles genuine native American bic lighter covers from a tent on the side of a dirt road ?
Reply
P.G. Grenadine
11/1/2018 12:51:36 pm
"E.P. GRONDINE
E.P. Grondine
11/1/2018 05:11:21 pm
@Jim
P..G. Grenadine
11/1/2018 05:25:29 pm
Well, the "hack writer" part is true.
E.P. Grondine
11/1/2018 07:07:52 pm
@Jim
Jim
11/1/2018 09:31:47 pm
??? Do you think calling someone "stupid" or "dumb" lends you credibility ?
P.G. Grenadine
11/2/2018 12:55:30 am
"E.P. GRONDINE
E.P. Grondine
11/2/2018 10:37:16 am
@Jim
P.G. Grenadine
11/2/2018 12:35:22 pm
"The only reward is that me and some of my friends efforts have contributed to saving millions of lives." 11/3/2018 03:28:22 am
Whoa! I’m enjoying the template/theme of this website. It’s simple, yet effective. A lot of times it’s very hard to get that “perfect balance” between superb usability and visual appeal. I must say you’ve done a very good job with this.
Reply
Riley V
11/3/2018 10:04:10 am
Thank you Jason. I love this stuff.
Reply
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