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Egyptian Dog Chariots in Olmec Mexico?

6/5/2012

74 Comments

 
I don’t think that the late Ivan Van Sertima actually knew how to read. At least that’s the impression I get every time I try to trace back one of his Afrocentrist claims from They Came before Columbus (1976) back to its source. Van Sertima wrote his book when he was a graduate student at Rutgers, and it says little for that institution’s educative training that one of their best-selling graduates simply cannot understand what he read in articles and books.

In discussing the “connections” between the Nubian people of the Sudan and the Olmecs of Mexico, Van Sertima makes a rather bizarre argument that, frankly, is difficult to follow. The background is that the Nubians (more properly the Kushites of the Kingdom of Kush of 800 BCE to 350 CE; “Nubians” being the people who replaced them) adopted and modified Egyptian culture, building their own pyramids and making statues of the Egyptian gods.

Pyramids
The Kushite pyramids at Meroe in the Sudan. Based on Egyptian models, they are smaller with steeper angles. (via Wikimedia Commons)

With that established, we can now look at Van Sertima’s tortured argument. He first identifies that importance of dogs in ancient Egypt, claiming they were mummified by the pharaohs. (This is true, but dogs were not universally part of the pharaoh’s funerary package; dogs were more likely to be buried in mass animal tombs, excepting perhaps beloved pets.) He then pivots and says that the “Nubians,” whom he confuses with Kushites, “were fascinated by horses” (p. 165) and buried horses in Kushite royal tombs along with full chariots.
Quote
Yet in spite of this departure from the Egyptian type of burial, the coexistence of the two cultures was preserved by a symbolic Nubian homage to the dog. The Egyptian dog-headed god, Anubis, graces the Nubian funerary offering tables. (p. 166)

Anubis had the head of a jackal, not a domestic dog.

This is where things get weird:

Quote
In this very period the Olmecs began to sculpt little clay dogs attached to wheels or to tiny chariots with wheels. In this peculiar blend of dog and chariot lies virtually their only use of the wheel.  […] How they struck upon this ritual association (dog/wheeled chariot) is an intriguing question. (p. 166)

It would be, especially since Van Sertima just told us that the “Nubians” (Kushites) buried horses and not dogs. Van Sertima intends us to believe that the Olmec were visited by the Kushites during the high point of their culture, 800 BCE to 350 CE. This is just possible since the Olmec flourished between 2500 BCE and 400 BCE. But does Van Sertima’s source support his claim?

Van Sertima relies entirely upon one academic journal article for this claim: Gordon F. Eckholm’s 1946 American Antiquity article “Wheeled Toys in Mexico.” It does not say what Van Sertima says it says.

In his article, Eckholm describes a series of toys found in Mexico, dating from primarily from the last few centuries before the Spanish conquest, which he called “period V,” dating to around 1200 CE. He does not provide dates for all the pieces, but those he does date are not Olmec. Eckholm describes these toys as “wheeled vehicles,” by which he meant that they could be pulled on a string, like children’s toys today. Van Sertima mistakes this phrase for confirmation that the toys were intended as a “peculiar blend of dog and chariot.” This is not what was meant by “vehicle.”

Eckholm describes a particular animal toy with wheels that had been found in 1880 and labeled by its discoverer, the French archaeologist Claude-Joseph-Désiré Charnay, as a “chariot.” Well, that's how Eckholm summarized it. In the original, Charnay calls it a "cart" and discusses how the word "chariot" was used in post-Conquest Mexico. But Charnay was describing the resemblance of the low-slung, flat animal with wheels to a cart with an animal face. Charnay thought it might represent an Aztec wagon or cart (Ancient Cities of the New World, pp. 174-176). His illustration, also given in Eckholm, is reproduced below. As you can see, it is an animal with wheels, not as Van Sertima mistakenly believes from Charnay’s wording as conveyed by Eckholm a “little clay dogs attached … to tiny chariots with wheels.” Nor is it of Olmec extraction; it was found near Mexico City and dates from either late Toltec or early Aztec times (around 1200 CE), as Eckholm clearly explained.

Dog Chariot
Dog "Chariot" as seen in Charnay, who labeled it a "cart." The artifact is now lost.
The final piece, the only one that Van Sertima could reasonably have associated with the Olmec, was described as coming from Oaxaca, near the Olmec heartland. However, Eckholm explains in no uncertain terms that he believed the toy “must have been made in Spanish times” since it depicted a horse with a saddle, something unknown in pre-Columbian Mexico. Saddles were only invented around 700 BCE and were not in widespread use in the Old World until the Olmec had vanished. He also said it was of the Zapotec (Monte Alban) style, not Olmec.

The earliest example identified Eckholm placed in the Teotihuacan Period (100 BCE-700 CE), again not Olmec.

He did write that such toys might be “the result of contact with or influence from some Old World culture,” which Van Sertima gleefully seized upon, ignoring the subsequent statement that such a possibility was “quite unlikely.”

Eckholm does not identify the wheeled animals as dogs. He cites others as identifying some as peccaries and armadillos, and suggesting the above-mentioned animal was a horse. Charnay’s illustration perhaps resembles a dog, but there is no way to be sure. The figures are stylized. Some, especially those found after he wrote, undoubtedly were dogs, but Eckholm doesn't say so and Van Sertima never went in search of those sources.

In sum, Ivan Van Sertima either purposely misrepresented Eckholm’s article for profit, or he was simply incapable of understanding the material that he read. Given the polemical nature of Van Sertima’s book, the former would seem the more prudent conclusion, but given his admitted ignorance of the Olmec in later years, I suspect the latter.

Van Sertima’s The Came before Columbus was not given a full academic review until this century, and so far as I know, its claims have never been systematically evaluated. It’s painful to see that entire careers can be built on misunderstandings, fabrications, and lies just because no one ever bothered to check the sources.
74 Comments
CuriousAnthro
6/5/2012 06:58:48 pm

Did the Mesoamerican's even have the wheel, that is, applied to transport methods? Reading this, I couldn't remember offhand. But how could it depict a horse; the contact theory is unproven and the indigenous horses in North America died off, leaving a gap in heavy pack animals that could be domesticated except the llama until the arrival of the Spanish.

Sorry, just some thoughts that struck me. I enjoy your excellent use of sources to give your arguments credit and validity. Is there some secret to how you do it so well? I'd love to be so effective at it.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
6/6/2012 01:48:30 am

No, the Mesoamericans did not apply the wheel to transport, which is one reason that the discovery of these wheeled toys was so remarkable.

The specific toy that seems to depict a horse was, Eckholm suggested, made after the Spanish conquest, thus accounting for the horse. However, he did note that the damaged figure could not be definitively identified as a horse (indicating, he thought, that it was made by native people unfamiliar with the animal). It is also possible that it was a different animal and that the seated rider was merely fanciful decoration.

Thank you for your compliment about my research! There's no secret to it, really, and anyone can do it provided you have the time and patience to read a lot of boring stuff. Mostly it just involves looking up the end notes in alternative author's books and then reading the original sources to see how they lied about them. I've also developed good Google skills, and I learned that archive.org is a great friend when trying to find obscure 19th century books.

Reply
David Rodriguez
1/19/2015 03:07:10 pm

I have a very old statue about 16in tall I believe it is from olmeca tribe, and it seems to have something's inside of the belly of it please contact if you would like to see it

pet friendly accommodation link
7/13/2012 01:31:02 am

I thing it was a great discovery and we can know more about it. Thanks to give us nice information.

Reply
Anthony
8/23/2013 09:17:01 pm

Seems like one thing that Van Sertima pointed to in his book as proof was not mentioned. Look in his book at the Nubian and look at the Olmec head. Exact matches. Jason, shame on you for accusing Van Sertima of poor scholarship and not presenting one of his main arguments for the connection he proposes!!!!

Reply
Jason Colavito link
8/23/2013 11:33:37 pm

I dealt with that claim more than a decade ago. Go to my "Articles" section above and select "Atlantis, the Maya, and Mu." You'll see that the "exact match" is no match at all, that "Nubians" look nothing like Olmecs, and that the Native peoples of Oaxaca still look today like the heads their ancestors built.

Reply
Jim R.
10/2/2013 09:07:33 am

The Olmec ´heartland´ was in the states of Veracruz and Tabasco. There was Olmec influence in central Mexico and Oaxaca, however.

anthony
10/2/2013 11:00:12 am

If you want to argue with physical proof than go ahead but you should ask yourself why you don't want to accept what the physical evidence shows without dispute!

The Olmecs were Africans from the Mandinka region of West Africa. They write and speak Mende which was written and spoken by the Olmecs. The chance that they just happened to use the same alphabet and spoke the same language is impossible! Just as the similarities in physical features of the Africans and the heads can't be assigned to chance either.

http://www.msresa.com/DataBase/History/PartII03.jpg

The Olmecs worshipped a thunder God where the axe was a prominent feature in the worship of this God. The west Africans also worshipped a thunder God who wielded an axe.

The list goes on. Others who are not Afrocentrists or Black say that the Olmecs created the mother civilization for Mesoamerican world and that it had African origins. The pyramids, art, language, religion, astronomy and other evidence show conclusively that the similarities are too numerous to be attributed to chance.

Thor Hyerdal showed that transatlantic voyages were possible using the boats that Africans used predating the Olmec civilization. He was not an Afrocentrist either!

When people refuse to acknowledge physical and non physical evidence that something is true the question then becomes why the denial.

ANTHONY
10/2/2013 05:57:26 pm

If you want to argue with physical proof than go ahead but you should ask yourself why you don't want to accept what the physical evidence shows without dispute!

The Olmecs were Africans from the Mandinka region of West Africa. They write and speak Mende which was written and spoken by the Olmecs. The chance that they just happened to use the same alphabet and spoke the same language is impossible! Just as the similarities in physical features of the Africans and the heads can't be assigned to chance either.

http://www.msresa.com/DataBase/History/PartII03.jpg

The Olmecs worshipped a thunder God where the axe was a prominent feature in the worship of this God. The west Africans also worshipped a thunder God who wielded an axe.

The list goes on. Others who are not Afrocentrists or Black say that the Olmecs created the mother civilization for Mesoamerican world and that it had African origins. The pyramids, art, language, religion, astronomy and other evidence show conclusively that the similarities are too numerous to be attributed to chance.

Thor Hyerdal showed that transatlantic voyages were possible using the boats that Africans used predating the Olmec civilization. He was not an Afrocentrist either!

When people refuse to acknowledge physical and non physical evidence that something is true the question then becomes why the denial.

ken williams
11/25/2013 01:10:00 am

Dear Anthony ,
Please don't be distracted by people like this jason person . His job
is to help maintain the status quo of the eurocetric view of the world .
As time goes foward these " jasons " are going to be pushed aside into the historical gutters they belong in . History, as taught in the Western and Western-dominated world, gives the impression that the first Africans to reach the Americas were brought as slaves, in shackles on slaves-ships. So total is the Euro-Americans onslaught on black people that all military, missionary, scholarship , academic forces are mobilized to paint the picture of the African as an eternal slave of the white man.
In order to justify their crimes of slavery and colonialism, Europeans have constructed a web of lies and prevarications and passed them as historical truth. How else do we explain the Western historians deliberate distortion of the truth to paint the picture of a Caucasian master and an African slave—even in the Americas, where evidence abounded that black people were respected, even venerated, by the old Americans (Occidental Indians)?
So complete was the Europeans falsification of history that several people, both black and white, will be shocked to know that there were historical, archaeological, even botanical evidence of Africans contact with the New World in Pre-Colombian times. As usual, Western scholarship popularized the myth that the history of the Indians started with their ‘discovery,’ by the pirate, ego-tripster and genius of mass-murder, Christopher Columbus.
Happily, one by one, these edifices of distortions, constructed by white-supremacists posing as scholars, historians, anthroplogists, even scientists, are being knocked down.

Reply
native_faces link
11/25/2013 08:33:28 am

https://www.youtube.com/user/blokcom

Debunks Afrocentric AND Eurocentric claims

http://statigr.am/native_faces

or

http://instagram.com/native_faces

Are the visual arguments that destroy Afrocentric claims about the Olmec.

We already proved those Monuments match Native Faces.

So even if you show an African, a Maori, a Filipino, a Chinese, a Polynesian matching those heads, you still lose the argument because we have proved native affiliation unmistakably. Game over.

native_faces link
11/25/2013 08:33:34 am

https://www.youtube.com/user/blokcom

Debunks Afrocentric AND Eurocentric claims

http://statigr.am/native_faces

or

http://instagram.com/native_faces

Are the visual arguments that destroy Afrocentric claims about the Olmec.

We already proved those Monuments match Native Faces.

So even if you show an African, a Maori, a Filipino, a Chinese, a Polynesian matching those heads, you still lose the argument because we have proved native affiliation unmistakably. Game over.

Saldim
2/12/2017 05:22:26 pm

http://diversityischaos.blogspot.de/2017/02/in-contrast-to-western-europeans-new.html?m=1

https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2015/12/25/refuting-afrocentrism-part-1-olmecs-were-africans/

Sorry Afrocentric, you lose. It turns out there aren't any cradles of civilization West Africans have any respectable claim to. And even Egypt (the Holy Grail of Afrocentrics) has been strongly Levantine since the Predynastic Era.

It was Europeans who first made contact with the New World from Eurasia after the former was populated by the Siberian Americans.

anthony
10/2/2013 11:12:12 am

By the way I went to your Atlantis Maya and the Mu article. You don't even show a Nubian next to one of the Olmec heads!!! Why?

Here is a side by side comparison which I am sending again.
http://www.msresa.com/DataBase/History/PartII03.jpg

I would like to know if there are others following this and what they think of the images.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
10/2/2013 12:16:32 pm

Nubians do not look like Olmecs, as Haslip-Viera et al. present in their article cited in mine. They have the relevant photographs.

Reply
anthony
10/2/2013 05:03:06 pm

look at the link i sent and tell me that.

anthony
10/2/2013 05:14:52 pm

The inhabitants of Tabasco and Veracruz have some of these features which likely came after the Nubians mixed with some of the native peoples. but the Nubians are without a doubt the models for the heads which were likely the rulers at the time.

anthony
10/2/2013 12:08:02 pm

I wish I had time to address the article Atlantis Maya and the Mu. All I can say my friend is you are not looking at the evidence with an open mind. Like you I don't ascribe to the theories of Hancock and von Daniken but you are missing a lot. For instance you ask "if the Egyptians did come to the New World, why should they have taught the Olmec of 1500 BC the pyramid-building techniques they themselves had stopped using hundreds of years earlier?"

See the big picture.
Its not about the building technique even though the Egyptians first built step pyramids as you point out. Its about what the pyramids represent. The understanding that the physical world is connected to a unseen world in their belief system. This is why pyramids all over the world were used for tombs and or religious ceremony by the priests.

Secondly, a higher understanding of our physical world such as Pi which is often found in the building of the pyramids.

Next, the understanding that our planet is a part of a larger system which is based upon cycles in relation to other planets and stars. T

Another example would be the winged serpent. It was passed from Africa to Mesoamerica. The image looks different but how it was used and what it represents is the same. Even the colors used were the same , red body, blue head, green feathers.


Reply
Jim R.
10/2/2013 06:28:58 pm

Anthony -I lived in Villahermosa (capital of Tabasco) for 4 years. The Mexican people of Mayan descent who live there do not have any trace of Nubian features. They look the same as Mayans in the Yucatan, Oaxaca, Chiapas, etc.
Also, there is no way to know what the spoken language of the Olmecs sounded like.
I guess I am wasting my time with this but you are singularly misinformed about Mesoamerican archaeology and ciltures.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
10/2/2013 11:35:33 pm

You're obviously right, Jim, but I agree that Anthony has very strongly held beliefs that are beyond fact. The Olmec were long dead when Europeans stated recording Mesoamerican language, and the whole claim is based on a few comparisons (which I have addressed elsewhere) between Maya and Mende words, which don't actually correlate.

Reply
anthony
10/3/2013 06:27:35 am

Jason,
Please lead me to your work on the language comparison.

I guess there is no correlation in the strong similarities in writing, religion, art, astronomy, and architecture which developed as well.

I suggest you look at the currents between the plates and you can see that Africans in the Americas is not some weird made up fiction.

Just as there were Chinese people in the Americas as well.

We are so arrogant (people of our time) and really know so little!

Jason Colavito link
10/3/2013 06:33:21 am

The linguistic material is here: http://www.jasoncolavito.com/1/post/2013/06/did-west-africans-discover-america-in-the-late-middle-ages.html

anthony
10/3/2013 08:10:29 am

I'm going to conclude w this. I feel I am wasting my time, no open minds here, or at least w who I have been conversing. Jason I appreciate your site but you pick and choose what you reply to.

Jim as far as talking about what the inhabitants if the region look like are you aware that China was first settled by East Africans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrCEhQ12HrA

Chinese do not look African either. Heres the rub, I am not saying that Mesoamaricans are descendants of Africans. I am only saying that they did make contact and heavily influenced the peoples already there.

If there is strong disagreement and there is tons of physical and non physical evidence to support this the real question becomes why does no one not want to see the reality of whats presented. eligiou beliefs kept people from wanting to accept that the earth was not the center of the universe. Racism, cultural, and temporal biases are the reasons people do not want to accept that people from long ago travelled great distances and influenced each other.

Jason Colavito link
10/3/2013 08:16:49 am

Do you think it's possible for me to reply to 200+ daily comments across 1,000+ blog posts while still producing new content and holding down a full time job?

You have an odd definition of open-minded. You seem to think it means that I need to agree with you, while you need not change your views no matter the evidence.

I reviewed the evidence, presented my views on it, and explained why I don't find it convincing.

anthony
10/3/2013 06:44:26 am

jason/jim
please enlighten me since you believe I am misinformed. the large basalt heads that have human faces carved on them that are Generally referred to s the Olmec Heads, who were the models for them?

Reply
Jason Colavito link
10/3/2013 06:48:37 am

The people who lived in that region, who today continue to look much the same and have no DNA link to (recent) African populations. I have a photo in my "Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya" article.

anthony
10/3/2013 06:56:32 am

Jose Melgar who discovered the head at Tres Zapotes said it was of "Negro Origin" and Leo Weiner as well. Again these are not quacks and
I find it hard to believe like them that all the similarities can be dismissed just by saying they are misinformed.

Jason Colavito link
10/3/2013 06:57:37 am

They weren't quacks but products of the their time, and wrong. Weiner in particular was very wrong on most everything.

anthony
10/3/2013 09:16:03 am

Jason
I appreciate your work and know you can't respond to everything. Its just how easily you and others dismiss things and seem to pick and choose what is responded to. My point is see everything tied together and show why its not plausible that it all adds up to contact between peoples of different parts of the world. Don't just take one part and say thats incorrect so see its not possible. Thats why I say people do not have open minds.

Jason Colavito link
10/3/2013 09:18:09 am

I think you're confusing "not possible" with "not proved." It is POSSIBLE that Africans visited pre-Columbian America, but the lack of evidence (and the fact that many points you raised are incorrect) means that this is not PROVED. A hypothesis with false evidence is no good for making factual claims.

anthony
10/3/2013 06:15:40 am

Your not really saying I am misinformed you are saying the PhDs who spent much of their lives in the region are misinformed.

Richard Diehl wrote "An Evaluation of Cultural Evolution in the Formative Period in Mesoamerican Prehistory". He states the features on the heads could be seen on the streets of Soteapan, Acayucan, and other towns in the region. He spent the 60's doing his work in the field and was a PhD in anthropology but was a anthropologist/ethnographer as well.

Read Alexander Von Wuthenau.

Mexican ethnographer Miguel Covarrubias. Mexico South and, The Eagle, the Jaguar and the Serpent.

Alfred V. Kidder, (1885-1963) then the foremost expert on the Anthropology of the Southwest and Mesoamerica. He coined a term, "Cultural Claustrphobia".

Read about the work of Mexican-born anthropologist Celia Heil.

These people are not quacks and have researched far more than our efforts combined.

Reply
anthony
10/3/2013 09:54:05 am

Some points I site from others may be incorrect because like you my time is limited and I can't verify everything but much of the physical evidence speaks for itself (basalt heads, pyramids, feathered serpent, etc) and I have verified much.

Yes, it was not only possible but all the evidence together shows us that the chance that it did not happen or the similarities in cultures is just a coincident is pretty much null!

The archeologists, anthropologists, ethnographers, metallurgists, etc who say the same thing can't all be wrong! I can reverse your argument and say there is so much evidence from different areas that its up to you to prove that it did not happen and you can't. However, your likely to say that all the evidence is wrong and thats why I say you should question your world view.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
10/3/2013 10:02:11 am

The basalt heads depict Native people of the Olmec region. The feathered serpent is a crested rattlesnake with feathers in Mesoamerica but a cobra with wings in Egypt, very different. Mesoamerican pyramids are step pyramids with a temple on top used for sacrifices, while Egyptian pyramids were smooth-sided tombs. These things are nothing alike except where you want to see what you want to see in them.

Reply
anthony
10/3/2013 10:34:15 am

So your saying the Native peoples looked African?
http://www.msresa.com/DataBase/History/PartII03.jpg

Its what the feathered serpent represents and how it was used. Not if it was a rattlesnake or a cobra.People will use the particulars of their land when they want to incorporate a symbolic concept from another land. Also the same colors were used as well which I mentioned earlier. Red Body, Blue head, Green feathers. Don't use the particulars like type of snake to discredit the obvious.

I already mentioned the pyramids after reading your article. Here it is again and I will add more.

<<Its not about the building technique even though the Egyptians first built step pyramids as you point out. Its about what the pyramids represent. The understanding that the physical world is connected to a unseen world in their belief system. This is why pyramids all over the world were used for tombs and or religious ceremony by the priests.

Secondly, a higher understanding of our physical world such as Pi which is often found in the building of the pyramids.

Next, the understanding that our planet is a part of a larger system which is based upon cycles in relation to other planets and stars.
added <Giza pyramids and Teotihuacan pyramids were markers on earth and planetary observatories(like others). They were in alignment with Orions belt.>

At Teotihuacan in Mexico, the size, layout and particularly their positions relative to each other almost exactly match those of the three pyramids at Giza in Egypt. The base of the Pyramid of the Sun matches to within inches that of the Pyramid of Khafre. The Pyramid of Quetzalcoatl & the Pyramid of the Sun are both accurately aligned with each other so that if one were to run a line between their summits it would run precisely parallel to the Avenue of the Dead, whilst the smaller Pyramid of the Moon is slightly offset to the left, at the head of this very great avenue. This layout follows almost exactly the same patternn as the Giza pyramids.

Also water was found under the Great Pyramid and there were waterways under the Pyramids in Mexico. Much we do not understand which is more fascinating than debating if there was contact which is obvious.



Jason Colavito link
10/3/2013 10:45:08 am

I think you seriously underestimate the diversity of features in Native and African populations. Egyptians and Nubians did not have the "wide" noses of West Africans, while the people still living in the Olmec lands have the same features as the heads. If you look at the heads and see African stereotypes, that's on you, not the facts.

The same applies elsewhere: You are seeing the connections you want to see but have no physical proof of it. Where are the Egyptian artifacts in Mexico?

Every culture worldwide has made connections between earth and sky; stars are found drawn in Paleolithic cave paintings. You need more than that to say two things share a common origin. Both structure and function need to match to begin suggesting such connections.

anthony
10/3/2013 12:04:12 pm

wheres the stereotype lol.
http://www.msresa.com/DataBase/History/PartII03.jpg

As far as stereotypes there was a wide variety of traits w the Egyptians. Look at the early Egyptians. Find a picture of Narmer!

Egyptian artifacts in Mexico.
Uuuuh winged serpent, pyramids w similar alignment and base dimensions.

Not every culture uses a snake with wings in or on religious structures.

I will try a different strategy since people don't want to believe non Europeans could have travelled the seas to other shores for whatever reasons which we know is untrue thanks to Thor Hyerdal.

Look up the work of James Guthrie a geneticist who did some research in Mexico. Look up Jin Li who recently did some genetic research in China and tell me about the stereotypes and lack of proof of their science! They come to the same conclusions that the older scientists I mentioned earlier came to. A diffusionist one that supports the other evidence that people travelled great distances intermixed and shared the many branches of their culture.

Reply
Jim R.
10/3/2013 02:57:17 pm

Anthony - Chinese do not look like East Africans but neither do the earliest migrants to what is now known as China. This is what Jin Li´s genetics research is all about. It simpy postulates that the first groups of modern humans out of Africa, between 125,000 to 60,000 years ago, eventually settled in China. They also went into SE asia, Europe, & the Middle East.
The Guthrie info only refers to the fact that there are Asian influences,such as blood types and some genetic markers in Amerindian populations. What a surprise! The website that refers to it takes speculation to a ridiculous degree.
I can see why you are so mixed up.

Reply
Jim R.
10/3/2013 03:24:13 pm

One last thing. The pyramids you refer to in Egypt do not, in any way, match the alignment of the pyramids and Temple of Quetzalcoatl in Teotihuacan. It´s not even close!
The Temple of Q and Pyramid of the Sun are on the Avenue of the Dead. Of course the alighnment between them is parallel to it! My house is aligned with my neighbours. Because we are on the same street!

anthony
10/3/2013 05:04:55 pm

Jim,
You are so arrogant and so wrong! Dr. Li's work does not "postulate" a migration 125,000 to 60,000 years ago but "demonstrates" Homo Sapiens from Africa migrated between 18000 and 60000 years ago and have a direct hereditary link to people living today in China which prior to the study was never done! The new data supports the Eve hypothesis you are referring to but challenges the notion that groups of humans evolved separately which is really what our discussion is all about!

Guthrie states that the genetic research as well as archeology and other disciplines support a diffusionist train of thought. What web site are you talking about?

If you knew what you were talking about you would not be so arrogant. ACheck the base of the Great pyramid and the Pyramid of the Sun. The difference is about 23 feet. Very slight when you are talking about over 733 feet! Check the difference in height and you will see the one in Mexico is almost exactly half the size of the one in Egypt. The alignment they share is with stars not with each other lol. They are aligned with Orions belt.

Some other interesting images like the basalt heads.

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Meso_additional/Olmec_images/Olmec040.jpg

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Meso_additional/Olmec_images/Olmec071.jpg

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Meso_additional/Olmec_images/Olmec008.jpg

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Meso_additional/Olmec_images/Olmec013.jpg

By the way the Chinese influenced the Olmecs as well. They also travelled to Africa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ShenDuGiraffePainting.jpg

Reply
Jim R.
10/4/2013 12:34:38 am

Anthony - I have seen the Olmec heads in person as well as other sculptures from Olmec sites that depict humanoid forms with no 'African' influence. They are in Parque La Venta in Villahermosa. You are just looking at 'clouds' and seeing what you want. That's arrogance!
You haven't said anything about Jin Li's work that disagrees with what I wrote. It is possible for diffusion of populations. But you were suggesting that Africans ( with modern 'racial' characteristics ) settled in China. You did say that " Chinese do not look like Africans". The ' mongoloid' characteristics are an adaptation, over time, to a colder climate.
As far as relative sizes of pyramid shaped buildings...so what! This proves absolutely zilch. Plus you prove your own ideas wrong by saying the the heights were different. Teotihuacan was also built between 300 to 700 AD. Thousands of years after any pyramids in Egypt. The same time as the Middle Ages in Europe.
Since the belt of Orion is very visible to the naked eye to any one in the northern hemisphere, why would it be surprising that groups of buildings from many cultures over time may have been aligned to it?
And before you lol yourself silly. You were the one who said they were aligned to each other.
Archaeology only supports the diffusion of people from Asia to N and S America. Your 'arrogance' leads you to see things that only look like connections to you.
Diffusion is a concept in archaeology. There were hypotheses about Japanese influences from the Jomon period upon the site of Valdivia in Peru. This was based on pottery styles that looked similar. Interesting idea but ... In archaeology it's only an idea.
In other words, your casual coincidences prove nothing about mesoamerican cultures.

Reply
anthony
10/4/2013 07:21:36 pm

I am not arrogant. I'm laughing because you use words like misguided and mixed up and like Jason will not allow yourself to see whats in front of you. Your likely not even aware that your vision is myopic. You would have likely been one of those who said Dr. Clyde Winter's archeological, artistic, and linguistic references proved nothing before DR. LI's findings. Winters said the Xia and Shang Dynasties were primarily African, and the later dynasties were Mongoloid. We now know he is MORE THAN LIKELY CORRECT based on the new findings however all it took for me was to see the images of the Africans in Chinese garb. Thats proof like the links of the Olmec carvings I sent yesterday. Either the Africans visited the Olmecs or the Olmecs visited the Africans and there is no evidence the Olmecs were in Africa.

Back to DR. LI's work. It shows that people in China did not develop independently of each other which based on your posts it seems you would not believe.

Once again the reason I said Chinese don't look like Africans Jim is because we now know that Africans with modern racial characteristics were in China and you say no way the Olmecs or Mexicans today can have African features. Sorry, I am laughing out loud again, did you see any of the links I sent you of the Olmec carvings yesterday??? Also does the African here
http://www.msresa.com/DataBase/History/PartII03.jpg
not look like the Olmec head or do the Olmecs look like the head and not look like the African?

As far as the pyramids. I made a slight mistake, the difference in the perimeter is less than 1 INCH. I said 23 feet but thats actually the difference on the sides. Differences like those mentioned are negligible when talking about structures of this size.You state that I disprove myself by stating the size is different and the similarities prove zilch. This is why I laugh. You say I make connections that are not there. Maybe you don't make connections that are there and I am not alone. I sited in a earlier posts older and more recent scholars who wrote about Mesoamerica.

you wrote
<< Since the belt of Orion is very visible to the naked eye to any one in the northern hemisphere, why would it be surprising that groups of buildings from many cultures over time may have been aligned to it?>> To build structures with the same shape, bury people in them, align them to the same 3 stars, and put water under them is not likely to happen by chance no matter how far apart temporally they were built.

yArchaeology only supports the diffusion of people from Asia to N and S America. Its obvious I am wasting my time. IF YOU LOOKED AT THE LINKS I SENT YESTERDAY there is no way you would have made that statement. Also archeology should be combined with other disciplines as well to arrive at the truth of the matter.

Finally, have you seen this Olmec head. Look at the afro hairstyle. Have you seen mexicans that look like this?
http://2012.caliwali.com/theolmecs.htm

Reply
anthony
10/4/2013 08:54:57 pm

Another interesting point is that the Egpytians thought their Pharaohs were an embodiement of God on earth and the pyramids were used to help them return to their heavenly home. While no one knows who built the pyramids in Teotihuacan, the name means "the place where men are turned into Gods."

More evidence that points to a connection.
Because we do not know how the connection happened no one should be so arrogant as to say there is none.

The same reasoning would lead us to say because we don't know who built Teotihuacan its really not there.

Reply
Jim R.
10/5/2013 05:33:56 am

First:
Teotihuacan is a Nahuatl ( Aztec ) word meaning ´birthplace ( or Home ) of the gods.¨ It is not the name that the people who built the city called it. No connection there. Sorry.
Building monuments in different times in different areas of the world aligned to stars and constellations that are clearly visible to the eye is, of course very likely. Never mind that you have to stretch things quite a bit to see any alignment at Giza. And again, Teotihuacan is not, by any measurement you choose, aligned with Orion's belt. I have the original site map developed by Rene Millon, et al.
Also the diiferences, at the present time, in diameters is 91 feet. But that is irrelevant because, as you said, the pyramid of the Sun is half the height. Look, they are just two large buidings using an engineering method that is the most stable way to pile either mounds of stones or earth together. Never mind the fact that they were built thousands of years apart.
I told you I have seen the original heads. I have been looking at Olmec artifacts probably since before you were born. You read somewhere that they looked African so that is what you see.
Clyde Winter can ´say´what he likes about Chinese dynasties but he offers no evidence. And Jin Li was talking about tens of thousands of years ago. Not the Dynastic Period.
Although your first paragraphs above are largely incoherent, you state that it may be that the Africans visited the Olmecs or Olmecs visited Africa but that there is no evidence that Olmecs came to Africa. First of all, there is as much evidence for Olmec influence in Africa as there is for your hypothesis. Can´t you see the Olmec ( bald heads ) influence in the Egyptian depictions of priests. See, two can play your silly game.
And of course Mexicans today can have African features. There have been Africans in the Caribbean area for hundreds of years. ( yeah, that´s a joke).
The whole discipline of archaeology is to use other sciences. Seeing patterns in ¨clouds¨ doesn´t happen to be one of them. ( this is just my snarky way to describe what pseudo-historians do.)
Archaeologists and other scientists are generally very open minded. Just not so much that their brains fall out.
OK, now you can have the last word. It's been fun.

Reply
anthony
10/5/2013 09:14:38 am

I DON'T WANT THE LAST WORD LOL!

FUNNY YOU NEVER COMMENT ON LINKS I SEND WITH IMAGES BUT SO BE IT.

I believe that Africans and Asians sailed to Mexico and mixed with the indigenous people based on research and I am in good company. Due to the low numbers of these travellers they disappeared. Jim, you believe people could come from Asia to Mesoamerica but not from Africa which is MUCH closer.

Riva Palacio "It is indisputable that the Negro race occupied our territory (Mexico)."

1972 Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin based on skulls and bones. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were African. The other possible African type found at Tlatilco and Cerro were the Laponoid group. The Laponoid group are Black Pacific Islanders. As someone stated if these people were in America today they would be called black!

There are others besides Clyde Winters who have similar claims but I can hear a simplistic "but they have no evidence," from you right now without addressing anything. Meggers, Betty J. (March 1975). "The Transpacific Origin of Mesoamerican Civilization: A Preliminary Review of the Evidence and Its Theoretical Implications". She agues that the Olmec's origin was the Shang Chinese who we know was a black dynasty in China.

King Don Juan of Portugal told Columbus that West Africans of Guinea had established a secret trade to the New World. Columbus con­firmed this on his second voyage. People in Central America told CC that Black men from across the Atlantic had been trading with them. On his third voyage Columbus met African merchants from Guinea who trafficked in an alloy called guanin. This guanin was eighteen parts gold, six parts silver, and eight parts copper.

Also it is said that Vespucci crossed Africans in the Atlantic as he was headed to the Americas returning to Africa. Not sure how true this is BUT combined with other accounts of blacks in the Americas it seems probable.

"Africa and the Discovery of America," three volumes by Professor Leo Wiener. He was a Professor of Slavic Languages at Harvard.

I am not a Afrocentrist but they have much validity in there claims based on solid research as well as other non-Afrocentrist. Van Sertima who seems to have stirred the pot simply stated that he believes there was African influence in Mexico. I am going to read his book but the evidence I have read so far supports this.

The question is why is it so hard to believe the evidence. Like the Chinese who had to recently admit that they are not descendants from Pe-King man as they called him why do others not want to admit influence from Africans in Mexico?

The reason is simple. It was necessary to state that people who were "discovered" by others like Columbus had no advanced culture and did nothing significant (like oceanic voyages). This was to justify to themselves and others the murder and inhumane treatment of other humans. Many still see the world from this paradigm that was set in motion so long ago and want to believe they are scientific and or objective.

Also for many humans today to see themselves as advanced they have to dismiss great past human achievements to things like aliens, or say they just did what they did by accident or by chance, or its really just clouds. The ancients were more advanced than we today in certain ways.

If you could show physical evidence for the Olmecs in Egypt or show like Thor Hyerdal did w Egyptian boats that Olmec had boats that could make the trip I would entertain your idea and do research w an open mind. If I found much to support your hypothesis in different disciplines I would not just say they are all wrong.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
10/5/2013 09:19:13 am

Weiner was wrong about King Juan of Portugal. It's a lie: http://www.jasoncolavito.com/1/post/2013/06/following-up-on-the-real-source-of-columbuss-mysterious-voyage-of-the-black-people.html

Reply
anthony
10/5/2013 10:30:11 am

Jason, lets say you are correct here and everything Weiner wrote was a lie or incorrect. Other historians, archeologists, anthropologists, linguists, ethnologists, etc pretty much agree now that Asians, Africans, and Europeans were in the Americas loooong before Columbus.

Some of the best evidence of the African presence in America before Columbus comes CC himself. He reported that when he reached Haiti the native Americans told him that black-skinned people had come from the south and southeast in boats trading gold-tipped medal spears. Other European explorers like Vasco Nunez de Balboa also said they saw what they called "Negroes" when they reached the so called New World.

Nicholas Leon a Mexican authority, recorded the oral traditions of his people. His work as he states reports that "the oldest inhabitants of Mexico were blacks."

Villacorta stated "Any way you view it, Mexican civilization had its origin in Africa."

In La Venta, dating back to at least 1500 BC four of the Olmec Heads were discovered on a ceremonial platform featuring a miniature step pyramid and a conical pyramid. The question is not if there was an African presence in the Americas but what part of Africa and when did they begin sailing there.



Jason Colavito link
10/5/2013 10:58:52 am

You don't have to take my word for it, I provide the original Spanish texts to show where Weiner mistranslated.

You really have a thing for scholars who wrote 50-100 years ago, don't you? They did the best they could with the evidence available at the time, and today we know more and can see that they were wrong. The argument from authority (an archaeologist said so 80 years ago so it must be true!) is not how science works.

I can see, though, that this discussion isn't going anywhere since you insist on repeating the same arguments even after their logical flaws have been detailed.

anthony
10/5/2013 09:48:38 am

One other thing. We agree on something. Its a Nuahatl word. I read it translates as "The place where Gods are Made," but lets say its "The Place where Gods are created." See the bigger picture lol ?!
The Egyptians who built the first pyramids also put men in them who they thought were Gods or were being made Gods.

Finally, who built the pyramids in Teotihucan? Also, how do you know the name the Aztecs used is not what the builders called it or a slight variation but its a moot point because of the paragraph above. Just curious, PLEASE answer?

If you think there is the slightest possibility that your beliefs may not have the full picture (even though you lived in Mexico and have been doing research years before I was born) do a google search for the physical similarities on the pyramids at the two sites if you have not already done so. Also see their relation to pi. Also look for arial views of the two sites. Again, all this by chance? Naaaaa! I'm not looking at clouds. These are stone structures that I am looking at. Make the connections so you can ask yourself he really interesting questions. Good luck.

Reply
anthony
10/5/2013 11:21:49 am

Jason, I have sited scholars from a range of time. The older authors seem to be more prolific and I site them because they are not called Afrocentrists and can't easily be dismissed as a result. I could agree with you if there were only a few guys but there were many.

Feel free to comment on the links with pictures that no one ever responds to.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
10/5/2013 11:28:31 am

The older authors didn't have modern facts; Afrocentrist authors are, as a rule, shoddy scholars working toward ideology rather than science. I've read many of them, and every one I've read shares the same terrible methodology, blatant manipulation of fact, and reliance on outdated, disproved scholarship.

The artifacts you link to remain images of Native Mesoamericans. Just because some people from elsewhere look like the Olmec heads to you doesn't mean they really are connected. Other people have argued that they look like Japanese sumo wrestlers. You see in them what you want to see.

Reply
anthony
10/5/2013 12:36:03 pm

What modern facts are you speaking of?

Like I said most scholars today do not doubt the presence of Asians, Africans, and Europeans who travelled the seas and have pretty much moved on.

YES people can see what they want but people can also not see what they do not want to see! When you look at ALL of the evidence made by past and present scholars from around the world there there really is not much doubt. I don't have a stick in it either way other than wanting to know the truth and an overwhelming amount of
information supports the conclusions that I have made based on multiple sources past and present as well as artifacts.

The Sumo wrestlers likely comes from some of the art like this one.
thehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WLA_metmuseum_Olmec_Baby_Figure.jpg

However, the people native to that land do not claim there Mother culture has Japanese roots. I am sure you will dismiss the indigenous people as just being wrong when they claim to know their roots. Like the scholars I site, when I went to Teotihuacan 2 of the guides who were students of Mesoamerican history and from Mexico City seemed confident in saying their culture had African roots but what do they know right!

The Japanese did not leave evidence to my knowledge of arrival like the Africans and Chinese.

Many of the scholars who are black have PhD's and are not concerned with ideology. Thats like saying whites who disagree are all racists and shoddy scholars. Yes some are concerned with ideology but the majority simply contend that history has been very skewed and would agree with some of the reasons I sited for this earlier today.

I'm done. I do thank you for your site. While I do not agree with all of your work and how you disagree, like saying Van Sertima could not read, I do appreciate the forum you have created!

anthony
10/7/2013 10:31:01 am

Jason,

A study conducted by Mexico's National Institute of Genomic Medicine showed in Veracruz that 11.13% of the people had African DNA which represented the group with the largest amount of African DNA in Mexico!!! This is why the people of Veracruz display features on the heads which are characteristics of those who I say all the evidence supports sailed to Mesoamerica.

I read your article article about Menzies. I have not read his material but to say the Chinese "discovered" the world is problematic for me. While you are right many of the characteristics of the people in Mesoamerica come from migrations long ago there is still the possibility that Chinese seamen arrived and intermixed. Have you heard of Han Ping Chen? He was able to translate a Olmec gylph at the Smithsonian. If not do a quick google search and tell me what you think.

Finally, this is the reason I stated our cultural and temporal lenses distort us from accepting science based evidence!
http://www.pbs.org/wonders/Episodes/Epi1/1_retel1.htm

anthony
10/8/2013 08:00:13 am

While there were slaves in Veracruz a lot can be deduced from this in light of the Olmec heads. Note that in Senora where there is the highest percentage of European markers the lowest number of African markers are present.

A study conducted by Mexico's National Institute of Genomic Medicine (INMEGEN) reported that mestizo Mexicans are 58.96% European, 35.05% "Asian" (Amerindian mostly), and 5.03% African. Sonora shows the highest European contribution (70.63%) and Guerrero the lowest (51.98%) which also has the highest Asian contribution (37.17%). African contribution ranges from 2.8% in Sonora to 11.13% in Veracruz.

Jim R.
10/5/2013 12:27:35 pm

Ok since you asked....
Well,the question of the origin of the word ´´Teotihuacan´is not ´moot.
It really doesn´t matter who built the city, however. It was abandoned in the eighth century AD. The Aztecs didn¨t arrive in the Valley of Mexico until the 14th Century AD. When they encountered the ruins they thought that they must have been built by Gods. Pretty basic reaction, really. No big picture there.
Actually, later peoples in the same area referred to the inhabitants ( who they didn´t know either) as people of the reeds. ( oh oh - here comes the Thor Heyerdahl reference. Actually, all his voyage proved was that a northrn european with skills in sailing over large areas of ocean, could sail a fanciful copy of a reed boat acroos the Atlantic. For no particular reason.
I'll try to make this simple. The inhabitants of Teotihuacan did not speak Nahuatl. ( it was a language group from N Mexico)They did not leave any written language that later groups could understand. So...how would the Aztecs know the name of a civilization that died out 6 hundred years before. Aliens, I guess.
Look...Cultures all through recorded history have built places where their gods have either been born, die, get reborn or live. Whether it is a pyramid, temple, altar, tree, or church. How they are built is usually determined by geography, climate, social organization, etc. And they tend to be really big. Something befitting a god(s). If some of them look similar that is just coincidence. Again, usually the result of the factors I mentioned above.
I don´t have beliefs. I follow the evidence. If it conflicts with my ideas I change. The problem is that you have beliefs only. Based on, from what I can gather checking your links, on the bizarre rascist rantings of strange Afro-centrists. The site realhistoryww.com refers to Europeans as Albinos. Please! It's a joke!
As I mentioned, I have seen all the pictures of Olmec artifacts and I have also seen them in person. I don´t need to follow links on the internet.
You obviously did not read my last message. I told you that there are only superficial similarities between these pyramids. The dimensions that you cited are wrong. The alignments are not similar. Maybe you should actually look at them yourself instead of ´believing´what somebody else tells you. Besides, a site map is an aerial view.
Also, what does 4 Olmec heads on a step platform have to do with African presence?
Also to Europeans in the 15th century I think they would call any group with darker skin ¨black¨.
The movement of peoples from Asia thousands of years ago is well established. There were successive waves over time depending on access between glacial periods. There is no evidence for African Influence, except for how stone heads look to you. That´s a belief system, not science.
I think you are getting confused by geographic terms, thinking that Asia means that the people have to look like modern Chinese or Japanese. Or that the movements of people out of Africa in Paleolithic times included people who looked like modern Africans. I´m sorry but this is not true.
It´s a big leap to having your feelings hurt by medievel Albino artists for depicting a probably semetic-looking Christ figure as a long haired blond man to saying that because early hominids developed in Africa then spread all the way through Asia and Europe that all subsequent civilizations around the world are constantly being influenced by African looking people. ( sorry for the long sentence.) This is the gist behind the realhistoryww website, after all.
I don´t have to prove that Olmecs visited Egypt because I can base this on the fact that pictures of priests in Egypt have bald heads, like Olmec heads. You obviously didn´t get my sarcasm. But this is the exact scientific rigor you are using for your beliefs. That´s sarcasm, too.
So you want me to support my´ ideas ´ with evidence in many disciplines. Or I can just pull BS out of my rear like you are doing.
As Jason suggests, you wouldn´t change your beliefs under any circumstances.
The floor is yours. Please proceed.

Reply
anthony
10/5/2013 12:53:55 pm

Jim, you make MANY MANY bad assumptions!

I have been to both sites but will not say because of that I am right and you are wrong.

I got your sarcasm and was turning it around to prove a point.

There was a writing system at Teotihuacan. They used glyphs like the Egyptians! I know when the Aztecs arrived. Maybe you did not catch my sarcasm question. I asked you who created the site at Teotihuacan because you stated in your post << It is not the name that the people who built the city called it. >> At least you admit you don't know who built it but to say that it does not matter who built it proves my point.

Oh yea, we can read languages that are older than 600 years but no way on earth could the Aztecs could know the name the original builders used.

Be well buddy.

Reply
anthony
10/5/2013 12:58:34 pm

sorry.. meant to write<< maybe you did not get my sarcastic question>> and <<Oh yea, we can read languages that are older than 600 years but no way on earth could the Aztecs know the name the original builders used.>>

Reply
anthony
10/5/2013 01:12:10 pm

I used the site I did w the links because it had the most extensive amount of images in one place. I have made it very clear that I am not a Afrocentrist and yes as I have stated some wish to promote an ideology but I am astute enough to take information and cross reference it. I don't just say wrong!

Reply
anthony
10/5/2013 01:27:23 pm

I want to let much of your last post go and be finished but you do not get what I am trying to do. Get you to link dots. Can't you see that early Africans in China would develop to have modern features.

To assume that I am not aware of the diversity in Asia is another arrogant assumption but oh well.

Reply
Jim R.
10/5/2013 01:41:54 pm

You did not read my message very well, or you made many bad assumptions.
I did not say that we don't know who built Teotihuacan. I said that it didn't matter for the purposes of this discussion. I also did not say that we can't read languages that are 600 years old. Only that the Aztecs could not read them.
The reason that we can read some languages that are 600 years old is that Linguists can track changes back through time when there is usually an unbroken thread of civilization in a certain area.
Also the glyphs at Teotihuacan do not look anything like Egyptian hieroglyphics.
How did you find that site unless you are an Afrocentrist? It is disgusting. That's like saying ' I'm not a white supremacist, I just like hanging around neoNazis.
You could easily get hundreds of pictures of Olmec heads from Google images.
I guess that is the real problem when you say you are trying to promote an ideology. I can't take anything you say seriously. ( not that I did before)

Reply
jim R.
10/5/2013 02:43:47 pm

You really do not understand phsical anthropology or relative lengths
of time.
If you want to postulate that people from Africa in historic times ( within the last 5000 years, say for instance ) scooted around the world dipping there toes into cultures. Then you can say that is why there is art that , to you, has African 'racial characteristics. Because those characteristics developed in relatively recent geological time. primarily the result of climactic conditions. Epicanthic eyes, melanin, long or short limbs for differential heat transfer, etc.

But you can.t say that Paleolithic man coming out of Africa 250,000 or so years ago resembled anything like modern Africans. Also they didn't just jump into land rovers and drive to China in a few weeks. Like the modern humans displacing Neanderthals in Europe successive waves of modern humans gradually arrived in the area of East Asia. as well as settling in all the habitable areas in between.
Repeat after me. They were not Negroid. As I said, the´mogoloid´ physical characteristics developed when the climate got cooler in that area. That is what Jin Li´s genetic studies conclude.
You might be aware of diversity in modern Asia but you don't understand how it developed. The assumption, arrogant or not, is based on your own words.
Tour guides in Mexico are notorious for spewing crap. Plus their English is not always that precise. They work for tips. They just told you what you wanted to hear. Just like the waitress at the pub who laughed at your jokes.
First of all, scholars are human and many have some sort of ideology. But they don´t last in any field of study with the shoddy methodology that the ones you follow have.

Reply
anthony
10/5/2013 08:10:01 pm

ok

Reply
Jim r.
10/6/2013 04:16:54 am

Jason - thank you for the use of your valuable real estate. I appreciate what you do.
I visit often but these are my first comments.

Reply
anthony
10/8/2013 07:50:53 am

While there were slaves in Veracruz a lot can be deduced from this in light of the Olmec heads. Note that in Senora where there is the highest percentage of European markers the lowest number of African markers is present.

A study conducted by Mexico's National Institute of Genomic Medicine (INMEGEN) reported that mestizo Mexicans are 58.96% European, 35.05% "Asian" (Amerindian mostly), and 5.03% African. Sonora shows the highest European contribution (70.63%) and Guerrero the lowest (51.98%) which also has the highest Asian contribution (37.17%). African contribution ranges from 2.8% in Sonora to 11.13% in Veracruz.

Reply
Jim R.
10/10/2013 02:31:55 am

Well since you asked...

The study that you cite is called Ánalysis of Genomic Diversity in Mexican Mestizo Populations to Develop Genomic Medicine in Mexico
This study was done using DNA from modern Mestizo populations in different Mexican regions.¨
- it states, in the discussion section, that due to epidemics reducing the Amerindian population African slaves were brought into the region between 1545 - 1548.
- historical records indicate that Veracruz and Tabasco states were the main entry point for Africans during colonial times and residence of African Mexicans since then.
So it would be no surprise that the Mestizo populations in these areas had higher incidences of African genomes.
Also, even if there may have been African incursions 3000 years ago there would be no way to differentiate that , in the genome, from the more recent influx of Africans since European contact.
This study does not back up your hypothesis.

Han Ping Chen, according to the article in US News and World Report. a highly respected scientific journal ( snark), said that one particular etching on a celt resembled writing from Shang dynasty China. The object, however, was found in an archaeological site scientifically dated to 500 BC. This is at least 500 years after the Shang period.
The article did not mention that other experts in Shang period studies have discounted Han's interpretation.
Also Han only looked at the celts individually. When they are put together, the carvings form more recognizable Olmec glyphs.

I assume you want Jason to address the Menzies info.

I think Jason has addressed this before in other blog commentary but you ( meaning advocates for diffusion) really have to look at primary material and sources or stop cherry picking only the parts that you think support your ideas. From just a quick look at discussions on alternative history websites, it is clear that you ( collectively, again) just cannibalize ( or plagiarize) each others information.
All the links that you have led me to look at are either just regugitation of wishful thinking by others or, in the case of scientific studies, actually say the opposite of what you are trying to prove.
I really don't think you have very good reading comprehension skills or just have a filter because you really haven´t acknowledged any of the scientific evidence that Jason or I have pointed out in this discussion thread.
The only lens distortion seems to come from your perspective.
We are open minded but you really have to do better.

anthony
10/7/2013 10:47:33 am

Jim,
I sent this to Jason and want to make sure you see it. What do you make of the first paragraph?

A study conducted by Mexico's National Institute of Genomic Medicine showed in Veracruz that 11.13% of the people had African DNA which represented the group with the largest amount of African DNA in Mexico!!! This is why the people of Veracruz display features on the heads which are characteristics of those who I say all the evidence supports sailed to Mesoamerica.

I read your article article about Menzies. I have not read his material but to say the Chinese "discovered" the world is problematic for me. While you are right many of the characteristics of the people in Mesoamerica come from migrations long ago there is still the possibility that Chinese seamen arrived and intermixed. Have you heard of Han Ping Chen? He was able to translate a Olmec gylph at the Smithsonian. If not do a quick google search and tell me what you think.

Finally, this is the reason I stated our cultural and temporal lenses distort us from accepting evidence!
http://www.pbs.org/wonders/Episodes/Epi1/1_retel1.htm

Reply
native_faces link
11/23/2013 02:04:32 am

Anthony, those are from post-1492 admix studies. It is well known throughout the world with genetic research that there is zero evidence of pre-1492 African or European admixture. Those studies were explaining certain towns with high African (post-1492) admixtures. As for the Olmec Chinese linguistic link, the claims by Han Ping Chen, similarities exist between many cultures but does not mean contact. So far between you and the other guy, your similarities are all over the place.

Reply
native_faces link
11/23/2013 02:04:46 am

Anthony, those are from post-1492 admix studies. It is well known throughout the world with genetic research that there is zero evidence of pre-1492 African or European admixture. Those studies were explaining certain towns with high African (post-1492) admixtures. As for the Olmec Chinese linguistic link, the claims by Han Ping Chen, similarities exist between many cultures but does not mean contact. So far between you and the other guy, your similarities are all over the place.

Reply
native_faces link
11/23/2013 02:04:52 am

Anthony, those are from post-1492 admix studies. It is well known throughout the world with genetic research that there is zero evidence of pre-1492 African or European admixture. Those studies were explaining certain towns with high African (post-1492) admixtures. As for the Olmec Chinese linguistic link, the claims by Han Ping Chen, similarities exist between many cultures but does not mean contact. So far between you and the other guy, your similarities are all over the place.

Reply
native_faces link
11/23/2013 02:05:01 am

Anthony, those are from post-1492 admix studies. It is well known throughout the world with genetic research that there is zero evidence of pre-1492 African or European admixture. Those studies were explaining certain towns with high African (post-1492) admixtures. As for the Olmec Chinese linguistic link, the claims by Han Ping Chen, similarities exist between many cultures but does not mean contact. So far between you and the other guy, your similarities are all over the place.

Reply
Lessure
11/22/2013 04:51:25 am

Anthony, you are correct.Much evidence for ancient contact across the Atlantic and Pacific! The architectural similarities go beyond chance as you state. Hopefully you see this.

http://www.richardcassaro.com/suppressed-by-scholars-the-mystery-of-twin-cultures-egyptians-incas-on-opposite-sides-of-the-globe

http://www.richardcassaro.com/research

http://www.richardcassaro.com/suppressed-by-scholars-twin-ancient-cultures-on-opposite-sides-of-the-pacific

http://www.richardcassaro.com/parallel-pyramids-across-the-pacific

Reply
native_faces link
11/23/2013 01:57:51 am

Cassaro's comparisons would be the best evidence of contact. However those pyramids (Asian) are relatively new. Too bad genetic studies do not link those people with the Maya. I mean, if such contact existed then we should see some genetic link. I understand the similarities are striking and is easy for people to easily say, "ah, proof of contact!" and is a subject I wish to tackle eventually.

Reply
native_faces link
11/23/2013 02:11:03 am

Please see Youtube user blokcom and native_faces on Instagram or Statigram for a thorough debunking of Afrocentric AND Eurocentric claims.

Interesting Anthony claims the Olmec were "Nubian-looking" but then talks about Chinese script. LOL Actually, it's not interesting it's ridiculous.

We have already proved the Olmec Monuments match Amerindian faces. We have even covered the famous Monument F.

We have already proved Luzia, Spirit Cave Man were Paleoindian, not European or African. We have done this using research from up to date material along with comparing faces of "full blood" natives.

Reply
Saldim
2/12/2017 01:51:53 pm

http://diversityischaos.blogspot.de/2017/02/in-contrast-to-western-europeans-new.html?m=1

https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2015/12/25/refuting-afrocentrism-part-1-olmecs-were-africans/

It's over already. The Olmecs were another Siberian American population. And East Asia has been significantly more homogeneous than Europe, debunking claims of Black Power advocates.

Reply
kel
10/1/2021 09:21:13 pm

nonsense,

The evidence of "Blacks" in Olmec mesoamerica is near overwhelming. The number of coincidences pile up until either u wallow in cognitive dissonance or you accept the obvious truth.

1. Clear evidence of Negro types based on the sculptures. DDo not forget the one with the afro, head band, and clearly African face. That is DEFINITIVE.

2. Presence of Olmec elephant statues (the neearest elephants are African) and could only have been made by someone who sae elephants or via first hand description

3. The presence of BES scultptures. Bes is an African God friom the Nile Valley and found in Nigeria. Presence of BES in Meso America is DEFINITIVE

4. The similarity of the Lavent Stela of man encased by the Serpent and the AE Goddess Hapi encased in a snake.

5. The pyramids.

6. The Stone Olmec burials with under ground/above group made from carved stone beams.

7. The crossed legged seated Olmec figures/priests reminicent of how Egyptian scribes and priests sat.

8.The clear presence of facial types not stereotypical MesoIndian. quite few have beards.

9. Comalcalco mud brick tiles and construction

.....the number of coincidednces ony leads to one reasonable conclusion: there is no coincidence and there was contact.

The "AfroCentric" conjecture which is not even afrocentric since the first to propose it where Mexican archaelogists and thereafter white American and Euro scholars is no longer mere conjecture. Someone would have to go through alll these evidences one by one and debunk them. Impossible.

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      • Book Image Galleries
    • Videos
    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
      • Secret History of Ancient Astronauts
      • Of Atlantis and Aliens
      • Aliens and Ancient Texts
      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
        • Robert Temple
        • Giorgio Tsoukalos
        • David Childress
      • Blunders in the Sky
      • The Case of the False Quotes
      • Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud
      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
      • Native American Discovery of Europe
      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
      • Lovecraft in Bergier
      • Lovecraft and Scientology
    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
      • Aliens and Anal Probes
      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
    • The Antediluvian Pyramid Myth
    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Atrahasis Epic
          • Epic of Gilgamesh
          • Kutha Creation Legend
          • Babylonian Creation Myth
          • Descent of Ishtar
          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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