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Erich von Däniken Puts Out Official Statement Attacking Me by Name

2/5/2021

80 Comments

 
On February 4, Chariots of the Gods author Erich von Däniken put out an official statement attacking me by name and disputing accusations that his history of using phrases like “failure” to describe the “Black race” constituted racism. The statement appears to be a reaction to tweets I made in response to a recent New Yorker article which interviewed von Däniken to comment on Harvard astronomer Avi Loeb’s claim that the interstellar object ‘Oumuamua was a piece of technology from an alien world. I noted at the time that von Däniken had a history of making statements that were racially insensitive or which expressed transphobic and homophobic views. That did not sit well with him.
In a statement on his personal letterhead, von Däniken said the following:
For decades there have been groups of people who believe that some of the contents of my book is racist. More recently, a pseudo-historian by the name of Jason Colavito had made himself important. Obviously, he has neither read nor understood my books.
 
He claims that my books contain Islamophobic comments and that I praise the Aryan race. None of this is true. There are no Islamophobic comments in my books, nor does the Aryan race appear anywhere.
As should be obvious, everything von Däniken said here is untrue. My book review page contains reviews of only some of the books by von Däniken I have read since the mid-1990s. Each contains quoted excerpts demonstrating von Däniken’s unpleasant and often controversial views. A simple review of his own writing demonstrates the falseness of his denials.
 
Here he is, writing in his book Signs of the Gods about the “failure” of the Black race:
“Was the black race a failure and did the extraterrestrials change the genetic code by gene surgery and then programme a white or a yellow race?”
 
“Nearly all negroes are musical: they have rhythm in their blood.”
 
“I quite understand that I am playing with dynamite if I ask whether the extraterrestrials ‘allotted’ specific tasks to the basic races from the very beginning, i.e. programmed them with special abilities.”
Similarly, his views on the subjects favored by conservatives and reactionaries are clearly expressed. In Twilight of the Gods, he offers unpleasantly reactionary views on gender, claiming that the world should have ended long ago if we gave credence to an Islamic prophecy that the End Times would occur when “women act like men and the men act like women.” A recent book, War of the Gods, expresses racist ideas about the socially constructed concept of race being genetically determined, and he threw in an aside about gender essentialism that seems to be an attack on transgender people: “The basic characteristics of people in different parts of the world are known. We all remain people, but we are not the same. The genetic patterns are different. No ‘gender mainstreaming’ disputes this scientific fact.” His book The Gods Never Left Us contains several pages of complaints about feminists and transgender people:
Within the framework of equality between men and women, some women demanded a program to implement gender equality. Meanwhile, gender has grown into a proper world strategy. “Gender mainstreaming” is even one of the goals of the European Union. But a few fundamentally correct thoughts have turned into a feminist world dictate. There are hardly any scientists left who have the moral courage to stand up against gender. […] There are only unisex people any longer. The biological sex no longer counts for anything. Boys should actually be ashamed to have been born with a penis. […] Anyone who does not adhere to “gender” is excluded from the community of reasonable people.
His books are full of similar comments about a raft of conservative issues. I needn’t outline them here.
 
The majority of his statement attempts to excuse his political views by appealing to the Bible and alleging that he has done nothing more than replace God with space aliens but otherwise follows the same biblical narrative of creation and population as Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Along the way, he nonsensically accuses me of arguing that Flood narratives are racist because only “one group” survives. Of course, that is ridiculous. Earlier generations argued either that races emerged after the Flood or that the survivors represented different racial groups. I have no idea what he thought to gain with that barbed nonsense. While I could explain in detail why his claims are closer in spirit to the twisted theology Victorian writers employed to excuse colonialism, imperialism, and slavery, I will confine myself here to noting that I did not make the argument that von Däniken complains about in detail in my criticism of his New Yorker appearance. Two-thirds of his statement is a straw-man argument against a claim I did not bring forward in this context. My concern, in this context, is with his racist language, gender essentialism, and other instances of obviously biased and offensive statements.
 
“Any kind of racism is completely foreign to me,” von Däniken wrote in his statement. “I never had and have anything in common with the ideas of the NAZI. I myself have friends all over the world in all cultures. We do not know any racism.” Chariots of the Gods, for what it was worth, was heavily rewritten by its editor-ghostwriter, who was a former Nazi propagandist. That said, I don’t believe von Däniken thinks of himself as a racist. But his written record firmly shows that he is blind to the consequences of his own ideas, both his so-called “analysis” of ancient texts and his own highly conservative politics.
 
Von Däniken concluded his missive by claiming that I and other critics are in fact the true racists. “This because they consider themselves to be something special.” I have hard time considering “I know you are, but what am I?” to be a serious defense against more than five decades’ evidence of sustained racist and sexist commentary, but it certainly seems to be an appropriate example of the level of von Däniken’s reasoning and the intellectual achievement it represents.
80 Comments
Ralf Buelow
2/6/2021 03:21:55 am

Jason: I checked your source "Signs of the Gods ?", and indeed it has a whole chapter on genetics. But note that von Daeniken's knowledge was based on UNESCO's statement on "The Race Question" from 1950. He may have read it at school and mentions it in his book giving the year 1951. (It is clear that he thought of the 1950 text which UNESCO revised in 1951 after receiving much criticism.) Note also that the German edition of the "Signs" book - "Prophet der Vergangenheit" - came out in the late 1970s. In those days the main German news magazine SPIEGEL still used "Neger" for African-Americans.

Reply
Kent
2/6/2021 10:47:30 am

What term did they use for African-Germans?

Reply
Kent
2/16/2021 08:31:04 am

Ulrich: I won't say "too little" but I will say "too late". Nonetheless (the elf who was edited out of Lord of the Rings) thank you.

So you're saying that Germans don't say what we here in the U.S. daintily call "the N word"? I find that hard to believe. Like it or not the word has punch.

If I'd said "Like it or not," WITH A COMMA, I'd have been saying "Whether or not you like the word the word has punch."

WITHOUT THE COMMA I'm saying "Regardless of your opinion on the word having punch the word has punch."

T. Franke link
2/6/2021 12:20:44 pm

It would really be interesting to know when exactly Erich von Daeniken made which statements, and to check it against the cultural context of his home country. I am pretty sure that there is some racism, but maybe less than thought.

Even I, in the 1970s, learned the word "Neger" as a neutral and normal word to talk of black people. It was not meant in any disrespectful way. It would be completely wrong to translate "Neger" with the N-word. Today I would translate it with "black".

I am very sad that so many people today think that this word is meant in a negative way. Some even started to erase the word "Neger" from famous books as if it was the N-word. But only from conservative authors. Wherever liberal or communist authors used the word, it is not erased. For example communist author Anna Seghers, "Das Siebte Kreuz".

There is no special word to talk of "African-Germans" in Germany. This makes no sense, there are too few of them, and they prefer to be identified with their country of origin, not with Africa in general. From which countries did the African-Americans come? Just from "Africa"? This is racism again! To lump them all together as "Africans"! How ridiculous. Liberal racism everywhere.

We have such a word for Germans with Turkish immigration history: "Deutschtürken". But I do not like it, since it prevents them from making a clear decision to which country they want to belong. It is another example of a liberal type of racism. Liberals want to protect poor immigrants from making decisions, but the result is that the immigrants are prevented to make the necessary decisions to establish them as Germans in Germany.

Can you imagine that young children still are taught Turkish language in German schools only because the grandfather once came from Turkey? It is so ridiculous, but the holy Grail of German liberals. And only Turks get this treatment, not the immigrants from Eastern Europe. There are no Russian lessons for children of whom the grandfather once came from Russia.

Reply
Kaiser Obvious
2/7/2021 12:27:13 am

The German language equivalents of Afro-German and Black German are among the terms used. There are hundreds of thousands of German citizens of African descent. Herr Franke is out of touch on yet another issue.

T. Franke link
2/7/2021 09:35:06 am

Kaiser Obvious, I never heard "Afro-Deutsche", no one says this.

Yes, there are some immigrants from Africa, but they do not consider themselves German in most cases, so why calling them "Afro-Germans" if they only laugh about you if you call them Germans? They mostly would like to be called Nigerians, or Moroccans, or from whatever country of origin, even if they have double citizenship and are legal citizens of Germany at the same time (liberals prevent them from making a decision about their loyalty and identity ...). By the way: Most of them are not black but come e.g. from Morocco.

Do count white Africans who consider themselves not as Americans into the number of Afro-Americans? I would say no.

A German who came from e.g. Morocco is a "Deutschmarokkaner", a German of Moroccan descent, but not an "Afro-German". No one says this. What a nonsense.

Dieter from sprockets
2/7/2021 12:47:16 pm

2002 German film entitled Afro-Deutsch, see:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0303295/

The term Afro-Deutsche has been in use since at least 1984, see:

https://femgeniuses.com/tag/afro-deutsch/

For Schwarze Deutsche, see:

https://oxfordaasc.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780195301731.001.0001/acref-9780195301731-e-41798



T. Franke link
2/7/2021 05:37:49 pm

Dieter from Sprockets, I never heard of this. I am living in Germany, consuming German news almost every day. Maybe the term lives among a very small minority of leftist activists and in small university circles, but it never made its way into mass media.

And as I said: The term makes no sense. There is no such thing as "Africa" as a common ground for immigrants. Africa is a very diverse continent.

I found the term in a German Wikipedia article about immigration from Africa. There, they try to define it as immigration of blacks from Africa, and do not look for citizenship. By this method they count 500.000 persons. These are 0.6% of the population.

But ... most immigrants from Africa are not black at all. And what about blacks not coming from Africa, but from Brazil or the US?! This term is nonsense, and I strongly hope that it will never make its way into public use.

This would be like calling white Americans "European-Americans" just because the ancestors of most (but not all) white Americans once came from Europe, while at the same time excluding blacks who immigrated to the US from Europe from being called "European-Americans" because they are not white. Sheer nonsense.

Frau Obvious
2/9/2021 10:53:06 am

For use of Afrodeutsche in a popular German magazine see

https://www.spiegel.de/geschichte/afrodeutsche-im-nationalsozialismus-a-1270980.html

https://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/black-history-month-nicht-alle-deutschen-sind-weiss-a-402113.html

https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/afroshops-in-berlin-fatou-und-binta-machen-haare-wie-beyonce-a-c76f36f3-7f77-4073-bac9-5d7b3d829d19

The third article specifically refers to native born black Germans as well as immigrants as Afrodeutsche.



T. Franke link
2/9/2021 12:58:27 pm

Frau Obvious, thank you for these SPIEGEL articles. I stopped reading the SPIEGEL years ago when it turned more and more to the left. Once, the SPIEGEL had been "the" political magazine in Germany, the "Sturmgeschütz" (assault gun) of democracy and enlightenment. Tempi passati.

What do you think is the feeling of an African immigrant who is not black, when he experiences that the words "Africa" and "African" and "Afro-" are used to describe blacks and black culture only, and that his idea of Africa is excluded?

And what do you think will be the feeling of an educated black immigrant from Africa when he sees this "Afro" shop which presents all the clichés about Africa, including bananas!!! .... throwing bananas onto a football field with black football players is considered racist in Europe, and here the SPIEGEL is celebrating this ridiculous cliché Afro shop. It is so disgusting ....

I feel so sorry for all the immigrants from Africa. They come to Germany with high expectations, and then they are confronted with this reckless attitude of liberals who consider themselves being tolerant and welcoming but in truth they only put their own dumbness on display and hurt the feelings of many immigrants.

No, these SPIEGEL articles to not represent the media mainstream in Germany. Not yet, at least.

Graf Obvious
2/9/2021 03:28:59 pm

First you deny that the term Afrodeutsche or related terms are used in Germany. When that is proven wrong with multiple examples from film and literature you move the goal post to Afro-Deutsche not being found in mass media. When multiple examples of the term being used in a major mass media outlet are provided you try to move the goalpost again. You are like Martin Stower; deny the existence of something and then continue to argue in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Yes, there are terms for black Germans in common use. No use in further arguments with someone who apparently lives a very isolated and sheltered existence.

https://www.facebook.com/AfrodeutscheGemeinschaft/

https://ujamaalive.africa/definitions/afro-germans/
https://carla.umn.edu/cobaltt/lessonplans/detail_plan.php?lessonplanID=LP312

https://www.amazon.com/Eine-afro-deutsche-Geschichte-Lebenssituation-Afro-Deutschen/dp/3929120089

https://www.amazon.com/Deutsch-sein-und-schwarz-dazu/dp/3423348577

https://topafric.com/index.php/afrodeutsch/1076-sie-sind-deutsch-ja-klar-afro-deutsch

https://www.amazon.com/Farbe-bekennen-Afro-deutsche-Frauen-Geschichte/dp/3922166210

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2rh32y

Thousands more such examples. Say Gute Nacht, Herr Falsch..


Martin Stower
2/10/2021 08:23:00 am

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site:.de+afrodeutsche

https://www.bing.com/search?q=site:.de+afrodeutsche

T. Franke link
2/10/2021 01:09:27 pm

Graf Obvious, I stay with my very first statement:
"I never heard "Afro-Deutsche", no one says this."

It is wrong to define the SPIEGEL as "mass media". It never was. It once was a political magazine for intellectuals of all sorts. (Do you know what intellectuals are? They do not represent the masses.) Once you simply "had" to read the Spiegel if you wanted to be taken serious, as an intellectual. Not anymore. The number of sold copies dropped over time, today it has little more than 650,000 sold copies which is 0,x% of all media consumers. I would say, you cannot call something mass media which does not reach at least 1,000,000 and which does reach only consumers of a very special political attitude.

Therefore: No moving target at all.

But I understand that the situation is difficult to judge if you are not living in Germany. And maybe the term "Afro-" is on the way of being established soon. But not yet.

Lost in translation
2/10/2021 04:43:11 pm

Mr. Franke,

Something may be getting lost in translation here since it is apparent that your English is not fluent. The circulation of Der Spiegel is well in excess of that of major US publications such as The Atlantic Monthly, Chicago Tribune and New Orleans Times Picayune all of which are considered to be mass media according to the definition of the term in American English. Germany has a population of around 80 million and the U.S. has a population of around 330 million to put this in better perspective..

It should be noted that there are publications in the US with much larger circulation, but many of them would probably fit in with your concept of left-wing/left-leaning. Based on your logic a term that is used in these outlets would not be valid and would only be valid if found in far right publications.

Perhaps you could work with a fluent Mother Tongue American English speaker to help you work thought the relevant terminology.

Luc
2/11/2021 01:21:55 pm

"This would be like calling whites "European-Americans..."

European-American is sometimes used in the US in reference to whites.
When it comes to trying to argue the absence side of a presence vs. Andence argument it only takes one example of presence for you to lose the argument. If you dont like a term or dont agree with its accuracy that is your opinion. If you argue that there is no such term you will often just come across as aggressively ignorant.

T. Franke link
2/11/2021 01:46:29 pm

No, it's not lost in translation. We differ in opinion. If there is an official definition of mass media defining The Atlantic Monthly with 425,000 copies per 330,000,000 US citizens a mass medium (and it is only per month), then this definition is wrong and useless and has to be rejected. And if there is something happening only in certain fringe parts of society, it does not happen in society as such. This is plainly clear.

Rupert the doll
2/11/2021 02:47:12 pm

Why are all of you arguing with someone who believes that Atlantis was a real place and that German colonialism in Africa wasn't all that bad? Do you really expect to see this silly discussion take a productive intelligent turn?

What's next, pick an argument with some feeble minded Brit who denies that Paki is a commonly used label in Great Britain because it doesn't appear in media that meets his impossibly narrow standards for approval?

Martin Stower
2/11/2021 08:33:12 pm

Some here (naming no names) are semi-educated mediocrities, of the kind who put The Dictionary on a throne, through ignorance of what lexicographers actually do.

One might as well talk to a clod of earth about linguistics, as to people like this.

Non-clods may wish to consider what something like this is telling us:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=unequivocal%2Cunequivocable&year_start=1700&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cunequivocal%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cunequivocable%3B%2Cc0

Kent
2/12/2021 08:56:28 am

With all due respect (do the math, ALL OF YOU) The Atlantic, with a circulation ≈ that of New York magazine and less than half the The New Yorker, is "media" but not "mass media". I personally don't care. It's of, by, and for WASP and uppity and aspirational SJW's (when will someone tweak to the "Jew" hidden in that acronym?).

This article equates Russia (that's the big country that did NOT invade and is currently NOT illegally occupying Syria, for those of you playing at home) with an "alt-right comintern".

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/10/trump-putin-alt-right-comintern/506015/

Up is down, left is right, cats are dogs.

"Oh, you're on the left!"
"Oh, you're on the right!"

That's an illusion.

"The message to nationalist and authoritarian-minded Germans is that Trump is a model: If, in the self-styled “greatest democracy in the world” the demagogic real estate mogul could have a decent shot at becoming president, then the right-wing fringe parties of Germany and the rest of Europe are not toiling in vain. If they work hard enough and employ the right themes, they can win."

If your opponent is as hideous, murderous (Qaddafi), and despicable as Trump's was, maybe yes. Again, do the math.

We were allies with Russia once before, we should be again. Russia is not the enemy unless the U.S. makes it so. Do the math.

T. Franke link
2/12/2021 09:29:46 am

Rupert the doll, be careful that you do not become impeached, you are just about to incite a mob with your words, don't you?

I do not "believe" that Atlantis was a real place, only fools do. I am convinced of it because of good reasons. Historical Criticism etc., you know. -- I only dared to say that German colonialism was neither better nor worse than any other colonialisms. -- But what I am really wondering about: You have forgotten to say that I expressed some support for Trump! Look, how bad and silly I am!

Currently, I am still able to counter your defamations, but what will happen when your words spread beyond this forum? Will you be happy to see me depicted as a foolish Atlantis believer, a denier of colonial actrocities, etc.? Do you enjoy destroying a fellow human being? Check your morals!

Last but not least, I realize that you just put the word "Afro"/"African" on the same level with an insult like "Paki", while at the same time you ask for a productive intelligent turn in the debate. Check your morals!

Luc:

In order to show that a term is generally used in a society it is more needed than to show one example. Even one single news with the term in a real mass medium is not sufficient. It is not only that I do not like the term, the term is in fact not generally in use.

There is another reason why the term "Afro"/"African" is not in use (I really try to explain this to you and learn myself about my society): Most blacks in Germany simply did not come from an African country, until a certain point in time. They have come from France and the US. Black soldiers from the US and the French army were the most blacks in Gemany up to a certain point in time. (And this point in time is not very far in the past. Hm, difficult to say. Maybe the year 2000?) Why calling Americans and Frenchmen "Africans"? It made absolutely no sense, then (and not now, for other reasons, see above).

Jim
2/12/2021 11:08:15 am

T Franke:

"No, it's not lost in translation. We differ in opinion. If there is an official definition of mass media defining The Atlantic Monthly with 425,000 copies per 330,000,000 US citizens a mass medium (and it is only per month), then this definition is wrong and useless and has to be rejected."

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/mass--media

"mass media
pl n
the means of communication that reach large numbers of people in a short time, such as television, newspapers, magazines, and radio

Let me POLITELY ask you this T Franke, is 425,000 a large number of people ?

Royko
2/12/2021 11:20:50 am

Kent and Franke

There is no specific required number of active consumers for something to be considered mass media. As Thompson has indicated in The Media and Modernity the issue is that in principal a given publication, or other resource, is "available" for mass consumption to a plurality of people regardless of political orientation. The Atlantic can be obtained nationwide via mailed subscription, online access, purchase at many newstands and bookstores, and even some public and university libraries. The same is true for Speigel in Germany. If only people of a specific likeminded political philosophy read these publications then there shouldn't be anyone complaining about their content like both Kent and Franke have done.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion.

T. Franke link
2/12/2021 06:39:34 pm

Jim, I am so happy that you politely asked: "is 425,000 a large number of people ?"

No, it is not, as I demonstrated above by the comparison of 425,000 copies with 330,000,000 US citizens. It is a small number. And just imagine: There are youtube influencers with more subscribers! And you have never heard of them, never! Take e.g. this pseudo-science youtuber "Bright Inside" with 1.1 mio subscribers: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsIlJ9eYylZQcyfMOPNUz9w Or would you prefer a fashion influencer?

Royko: I am not a slave of definitions made by others. I explained this above, and it should be understandable to every reasonable person. Look, this is just all about the simple fact that I can tell you by firsthand experience that the term is not (yet) established in German society. You are not obliged to believe me, but exaggerated scepticism may be harmful too.

You should rather start thinking about how you could free American society from the sweeping term "African" American, and to come to a more humane wording. I heard e.g. of the book "Roots" by Alex Haley, He found that his ancestors once came from Gambia. So he is a Gambian-American, as Ronald Reagan was an Irish-American. I never heard anyone talk about Ronald Reagan as a European-American. Europe is a large continent with very diverse peoples and cultures .... and so is Africa.

Hogans heroes
2/12/2021 07:53:36 pm

Franke is befuddled and flustered, doesnt know what he doesn't know, is immune to facts and logic, isnt taken seriously by anyone here, yet comes across as sincere in his ignorance. He is E.P. Gronidine trolling under another name.

Change my mind....

Jim
2/12/2021 09:04:21 pm

" I am not a slave of definitions made by others."

T Franke, you don't seem to understand how languages work. Everyone has to have the same definitions of the same words or we may just as well go back to grunts and hand signs.
You can't have people running around willy nilly making up their own definitions and expect to be able to converse properly.

I made a d in high school german
2/13/2021 04:48:24 am

When in doubt consult a current dictionary. The Collins German to English Dictionary lists Afrodeutsch. The Duden German Language Dictionary lists Afrodeutsch.

What color is the sky in a world where a term that appears in dictionaries, press, pop culture, and literature of a country supposedly does not actually exist?

I agree that Franke is probably just not expressing himself well here. His comments suggest frustration with what he views as overly PC terminology currently in use. Much like some Americans were/are resistant to African-American.




T. Franke link
2/13/2021 11:33:08 am

Jim, language is an important tool to manipulate others. Never heard of George Orwell's "War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength"? What if the Founding Fathers would have obeyed to all definitions in British law and dictionaries in 1776?!

Why do you ignore my arguments: What is it now, with the many-million-followers youtube influencers? Are they mass media? Do they define a language which we all have to obey? Just asking politely.

And let me repeat: This term is not (yet) established in German society. It has nothing to do with my preferences. I never heard anyone using this term. Even not the most liberal persons. I encountered its existence just now, in this discussion.

Jim
2/13/2021 01:11:29 pm

Franke, this isn't a one off where you dispute the definition of one word to bolster your point of view, you are redefining words and phrases on a regular basis.

When the rest of the world including dictionaries etc accepts the standing definition of "mass media" (or whatever word is in dispute) and you say no,screw that, that would make me wrong therefore I will change the meaning of the word to my own new definition and claim the rest of the world is wrong,, well, that is just nonsense.

Your "alternative definition" shtick is a kissing cousin to Trump and co's "alternative facts", it's bogus.

the prince of reason
2/13/2021 01:23:03 pm

"I never heard anyone using this term..."

Over a dozen links later to documentation of its use by other Germans in Germany and now you have.

..."youtube influencers. Are they mass media?"

Yes, youtube is part of mass media. That's why youtube influencer can be such a lucrative economic activity.

In fact, here is just one of many videos posted on youtube where afrodeutsch is used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUNQS3eyn94

"Do they define a language which we all have to obey."

Irrelevant. There is no rule stating you yourself must use a term like Afro-Deutsch or personally agree with its usage. But likewise there is no rule stating that just because you don't like the term and don't agree with it, it means that Afrodeutsch doesn't exist or that it invalidates its wider usage by other Germans.

"The term is not (yet) established in German society."

It doesn't need to be, even if your statement was true. A few documented examples that demonstrate a trend of usage refutes your original assertion that .."no one says this."













Jim
2/13/2021 01:33:16 pm

"Why do you ignore my arguments: What is it now, with the many-million-followers youtube influencers? Are they mass media? Do they define a language which we all have to obey? Just asking politely."

Yes youtube would be mass media, but that doesn't preclude other mass media venues from the term "mass media" just because they don't reach as many people.

Robert Wadlow weighed 439 lb therefore John Krahn, Standing at 7-feet tall and weighing over 400 pounds is not a large man because he is not as big as Robert Wadlow.
I have unilaterally decided to peg the definition of a large man at 435 pounds+ therefore my saying John Krahn is not a big man must be true.

This is what your argument sounds like.

T. Franke link
2/13/2021 04:13:25 pm

Pragmatic proposal: When I personally hear the first German using the term I will come back to you ...... meanwhile you could meditate about all the nonsense arguments you have put forward. Your assumption, that I hear this term all the time, but pretend not to hear it, is wrong.

I stay with my first statement:
I never heard "Afro-Deutsche", no one says this.

T. Franke link
2/13/2021 04:17:02 pm

Jim, the whole discussion about the "mass" media is about the question why I never heard this term used, although I am not living in the woods without electricity. You are missing the point completely, as always.

Ramstein fan
2/13/2021 05:09:41 pm

Bild, which is Germany's largest tabloid newspaper, and a conservative-leaning one at that, ran a story in 2018 with the title including: gesicht der afrodeutschen-bewegung. My German is not good but I read it as "leader (or face) of the Afro-German movement."

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, which by American standards would be considered moderate, and one of Germany's largest newspapers has included Afrodeutsch or Afrodeutschen in a number of articles.

Florence Kasumba, who recently joined the cast of the popular longrunning German police series Tatort has been described on Deutschlandfunk Kultur as the show's first Afrodeutsch (Afro-German) detective. Similar terminology has been used to describe her and her character on the series and in other media devoted to covering popular arts and entertainment in Germany.

The better question would be listing the contexts in Germany where Afrodeutsch is not used or at least clearly understood?






The thread that won't die
2/13/2021 07:09:27 pm

No one says this

Demonstrably false. The only context where one can be sure that it isn't used or readily understood is Franke's mind. At this point he is attempting to spread a blatant lie.

Jim
2/13/2021 07:36:07 pm

"T Franke
Jim, the whole discussion about the "mass" media is about the question why I never heard this term used, although I am not living in the woods without electricity. You are missing the point completely, as always."

Just NO Franke,,,,,,,,,,, you are ducking again.

"T Franke
No, it's not lost in translation. We differ in opinion. If there is an official definition of mass media defining The Atlantic Monthly with 425,000 copies per 330,000,000 US citizens a mass medium (and it is only per month), then this definition is wrong and useless and has to be rejected. And if there is something happening only in certain fringe parts of society, it does not happen in society as such. This is plainly clear."

T. Franke link
2/14/2021 07:37:40 am

Ramstein Fan has contributed a useful posting:

"Florence Kasumba, who recently joined the cast of the popular longrunning German police series Tatort has been described on Deutschlandfunk Kultur as the show's first Afrodeutsch (Afro-German) detective."

She joined in 2019, and she is the first one. Maybe a small hint to you all that this term is maybe still on the way of establishing itself, but -- I repeat myself -- it is not yet an established term.

I searched for other News about her being the first Afro-Deutsche as detective in "Tatort", and only few media use the term Afro-Deutsch. They all got it from the same news source. All other media did not use the term but of course they wrote about her. A new detective in "Tatort" is an affair of national interest, so to say.

So, you gave me another chance to show you that you are wrong.

Hans und Franz
2/14/2021 12:18:45 pm

Franke claimed no one uses afrodeutsche but now admits that it has been used in reference to an actress on a mainstream german TV show. Who has been proven wrong here?

T. Franke link
2/14/2021 05:47:04 pm

Hans and Franz, it were again just a few minor news! Not the broad mass media flooding across the nation. These minor news do not represent the common use of words in Germany. They slipped my attention, naturally.

I stay with my first statement:
I never heard "Afro-Deutsche", no one says this.

The "no one" clearly refers to my own perception as a mass media consumer, here. Of course you will find some usages in some media, but they are rare enough not to have come to my attention, or ot the attention of major parts of the population.

I stay with my first statement:
I never heard "Afro-Deutsche", no one says this.

The BILD example is another good example: It is an article from 2018 portraying a proponent of a so-called Afro-German community to the public. So, in 2018 there was a need still to explain it. And then I found that this so-called Afro-German movement is organized under a name .... not using "Afro" but using "black":
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiative_Schwarze_Menschen_in_Deutschland

I stay with my first statement:
I never heard "Afro-Deutsche", no one says this.

We can go on with this for years ...

Jim
2/15/2021 12:08:26 am

"The "no one" clearly refers to my own perception as a mass media consumer, here."

So T Franke, another "alternate definition" ?
You are going to have to publish your own dictionary so people can figure out what the hell you are talking about.

Ulrich Groff
2/15/2021 09:21:26 am

Kent:

To answer your question

Negrid
Afrodeutsch
Schwarze
Farbige
Maximalpigmentierte
Mohr
Mulatte
Neger
Afrodiasporisch
Dunkelhautig

Thse can be rare or common or PC or non-PC. Some apply specifically to people from sub-Saharan Africa or their descendants. Others have broader application to all people with very dark skin. There are others but I can't remember them right now.

Colonel Klink
2/15/2021 07:30:59 pm

For the love of God, Ulrich if you are fluent in both German and English will you explain to this idiot Franke what is being discussed here.

T. Franke link
2/16/2021 07:06:37 am

I honestly described my experience as a German in Germany, and the result is, that I am called an "idiot", and that single media pieces are put forward as alleged "evidence" that the term "Afro"/"African"-German allegedly is in use everywhere and all the time in German "mass" media, so that you allegedly cannot avoid it.

You are wrong, and you lack politeness.

I stay with my first statement:
I never heard "Afro-Deutsche", no one says this.

Siggy Freud
2/16/2021 10:46:48 am

"My experience"

"No one says this"

"Single media pieces [note the plural] are put forward"

LOL

Nobody argued that Afrodeutsch is in universal use, just that it can be found in a variety of media in mass media of various types and thus can be included in the list of terms used in reference to people in Germany from Africa or of African descent. Whether Franke has heard it or acknowledges it as a valid term is irrelevant.

Franke doesn't need a translator he needs a psychologist.

Jim
2/16/2021 10:49:35 am

"that the term "Afro"/"African"-German allegedly is in use everywhere and all the time in German "mass" media, so that you allegedly cannot avoid it."

Nobody said this Franke, you are dishonestly exaggerating. Give it a rest won't you.

This is what was said to start your unhinged ravings.

----------------------------------------------------------
Kaiser Obvious
2/7/2021 12:27:13 am
The German language equivalents of Afro-German and Black German are among the terms used. There are hundreds of thousands of German citizens of African descent. Herr Franke is out of touch on yet another issue.
-----------------------------------------------------------
T. Franke
link
2/7/2021 09:35:06 am
Kaiser Obvious, I never heard "Afro-Deutsche", no one says this.
------------------------------------------

And then a number of posters cited copious examples of the term legitimately being used resulting with you losing your shit. about it.

Ulrich
2/16/2021 04:48:40 pm

Colonel Klink, my German is functional but not fluent. I am an American who was raised around a Grandmother who spoke only German and I have made several visits to Germany. American. I don't want to be involved in a nasty dispute. Therefore, I am limiting my participation to answering the original question based on my own experiences and knowledge.

Ulrich Groff

T. Franke link
2/16/2021 05:38:03 pm

Ah, you are moving the goal posts, don't you?

Now YOU STEP BACK from the claim that the term is among the generally used terms. Now you claim that there allegedly never was talk about a generally used term. It was only talk, you say now, of a term, which is maybe, could be, rarely, seldom, heard and used, here and there, in some niche, and thus on the list, but only at the very margins of the list of terms.

IT MAY BE TRUE, you say now, that Franke never heard of it. Franke may be right, you say now, and the term is indeed very rarely used, but that does not disturb your claim, since your claim allegedly was a very small one.

Surprise, surprise ...

But thank you that you finally admit that it may be true that I never heard of the claim. Thank you very much. This is full victory, I would say.

OMG, how ridiculous! You stepped back to any kind of use of the term by any ideology-driven niche activists! You will find always some niche using crazy terms. This was not what this was all about. A clear case of self-demolishing.

What a spectacle!
*head-on-desk*

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
2/16/2021 06:18:20 pm

Who said that Afrodeutsch is among the "generally used" terms? Several people simply stated the fact that Afrodeutsch is among the terms used. In English if someone says that something is among a group of other things it simply notes that it is present. It does not indicate frequency of occurence.

"No one says this" has turned into a strange argument against a claim that has not been made, while also acknowledging that the term is present despite stating that "no one says this."

Jim
2/16/2021 06:40:34 pm

I'll take T. Franke doesn't like being wrong for $500 Alex.

Doc rock
2/6/2021 06:09:36 am

Am I following his logic correctly in that he is asserting that he is not a Nazi so therefore he cannot be racist or express racist sentiment?

Reply
T. Franke link
2/6/2021 06:35:59 am

It is true that Erich von Däniken exaggerated things so that he crossed the threshold of racism, and it would be pleasant to hear explanations / distancing him from, concerning certain words.

Yet this article shows that Jason exaggerates things too. It is still legitimate in a free world to hold conservative views and to voice them.

I fear that the clash of them two will not be fruitful.

Reply
Jim
2/6/2021 10:09:55 am

" It is still legitimate in a free world to hold conservative views and to voice them."

Define "conservative views", They kind of vary from place to place, so exactly what "conservative views" are you talking about ?

Being a conservative doesn't excuse someone from being a racist.
Racism and conservative views are not mutually exclusive, far from it.
If the shoe fits, wear it. Conservatives or Liberals, where do you think the majority of racists land ?

The world has a long tradition of racism,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
What is the definition of conservative again ?




Reply
T. Franke link
2/6/2021 12:00:45 pm

Jim, you are not the Great Inquisitor and I am not in your hands to be interrogated. Would it be a problem for you to apply more sensibility when asking such questions?

Conservatism and racism cannot go along with each other, unless you define Conservatism simply as the 50% of the population on the right side of the political spectrum. Every meaningful definition of Conservatism excludes racism. Men are bestowed by God or nature with the same dignity.

Liberals have no such definitions in their creed. Many liberals are even downright simplistic materialists. What reasons do they have to treat all human beings equally? Can't imagine any.

In Socialist countries, human beings have always been divided by their obedience and by their economic usefulness.

When looking at contemporary liberal identity politics, the majority of racists clearly lands on the liberal side. Establishing a systematic discrimination of Whites just in order to achieve equality "in results" is no doubt a kind of systemic racism.

Ok, to see differences between men and women is not a conservative view. It is just a normal view.

Jim
2/6/2021 07:21:09 pm

Say what ????

"When looking at contemporary liberal identity politics, the majority of racists clearly lands on the liberal side. Establishing a systematic discrimination of Whites just in order to achieve equality "in results" is no doubt a kind of systemic racism."

Did you just claim that liberals are racist against white people because they want equality for blacks and other minorities ?
I think you did.
Inversely, if a liberal is not a racist can he then still be racist towards black people ?
Is it only your perceived racism against white people that counts as racism ?

T. Franke link
2/7/2021 09:48:17 am

Jim,

it would be nice if you could make it to cite me correctly. A debate comes to a bitter end if the mere words are twisted in the mouth of the other side.

I did not talk of liberals being racist "because they want equality for blacks and other minorities" as you impute to me. I said something different. Would you please be so kind to read my words again? Thank you.

We are at the core of the problems of US democracy, here. Somehow liberals stopped to accept that there are other opinions than liberal opinions. They have drawn the line of allowed ideas very narrow, so that normal views suddenly are called racist although they are not.

It is just a normal and legitimate view that all citizens should get the same chances, in order to offer them the opportunity to advance as far as they are willing to invest efforts, but that it is at the same time not a good idea to enforce equality independently of what they have made of their chances.

Enforcing equality among citizens is just radical and can be achieved only by severe restrictions of freedom. It is unconstitutional. There is an equality of all citizens before the law. But you can have freedom only if you accept that there are many inequalities besides this.

Tomás de Torquemada
2/7/2021 01:37:42 pm

"it would be nice if you could make it to cite me correctly."

I cited you exactly as you posted, you know, copy/paste.

Reading between the lines I get the impression that you are speaking of white (Liberals) being racist towards other whites.
Be sure to tell me if I am wrong.

"the majority of racists clearly lands on the liberal side. Establishing a systematic discrimination of Whites"

Unless you think that the "majority of racists clearly lands on the liberal side" with them being minorities ? I'm pretty sure the numbers don't work for you.

Perhaps you should explain yourself rather than telling me that the exact quote of you was cited incorrectly.

T. Franke link
2/7/2021 05:42:54 pm

Tomás de Torquemada: "I cited you exactly as you posted, you know, copy/paste."

I am very sorry but you did not. You e.g. cut-off my words at a decisive point. And you fail to answer to any argument put forward by me. You are not acting like a gentleman, having an intelligent conversation. You are acting like a propagandist, just yelling time and again the same nonsense message.

Jim
2/9/2021 08:53:06 am

"I am very sorry but you did not. You e.g. cut-off my words at a decisive point."

B.S.,,, I quoted the entire paragraph, your commentary both above and below the paragraph has sweet eff all the do with the question posed to you regarding specifically the paragraph I quoted and not the unquoted part of your post.
Sweet baby Jesus, why in the hell do you think I quoted that particular paragraph ?

You:
"When looking at contemporary liberal identity politics, the majority of racists clearly lands on the liberal side. Establishing a systematic discrimination of Whites just in order to achieve equality "in results" is no doubt a kind of systemic racism."

You can keep on ducking, dodging and continuing to play the I am so hard done by pity card, but in the end you can neither prove nor justify your bogus comment fabricating racism where it does not exist in some sad attempt to put forth your agenda.

"Establishing a systematic discrimination of Whites just in order to achieve equality "in results" is no doubt a kind of systemic racism."

This sounds like something someone would say after smoking a big fatty.

You cooking up this nonsense that white (as well as colored) liberals are racist because the white liberals are racist towards other whites, is made up nonsense and for the liberals to claim the title of "most racist" you certain cannot make that boast without including white people, there is no way you can remove liberal whites from the equation and claim it to be true.
It's a word salad made out of horse turds.

I can see why you keep ducking and dodging with your made up white on white racism that supposedly makes liberals the most racist.

"the majority of racists clearly lands on the liberal side."

Anyhoo, since you refuse to account for, or justify your own remarks that I questioned, I will leave you to rant and rave to your hearts content. It is pointless to discuss your bogus statements without you even trying to respond or justify yourself but instead just throwing out complaints that don't even touch on the issue I questioned you about.

Adios


T. Franke link
2/9/2021 12:31:36 pm

Jim: "I will leave you to rant"

My impression is that it is rather you who is ranting? Why do you keep ducking and dodging when it comes to the realization that the aim of equality "in results" inevitably leads to systemic racism? Look, there is nothing wrong with supporting the poor etc., but equality in results?! The ticket to Utopia is not a ticket to freedom and democracy.

By the way, you used the word "colored". I learned that this is considered racist. Oups!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored

Jim
2/9/2021 06:13:46 pm

"My impression is that it is rather you who is ranting? Why do you keep ducking and dodging "

I know you are, but what am I ?
What are you, like ten years old ?

I don't know what you think "in results" means, but it doesn't mean spit to me, just more crap you are making up I suppose.

" when it comes to the realization that the aim of equality "in results" inevitably leads to systemic racism?"

Okay there bud, treating people of color the same way as one treats white people results in systemic racism. Gotcha.



T. Franke link
2/10/2021 01:11:28 pm

Jim: "Gotcha".

I am sorry, but you still have not got it. Try harder.

Kent
2/10/2021 03:33:32 pm

Mr. Frank:

"Okay there, bud" is a native English speaker trying to sound tough. Enjoy the Full Jim Experience. My high school library got Der Spiegel and I used to [try to] read it but that was long ago.

Jim
2/10/2021 04:31:21 pm

Why don't you fucking try harder and explain + admit what you mean instead of blurting out cryptic crap and pretending that everyone should know what your obscure or made up "in results" means, and quit being so butthurt when someone asks you explain your position.

I have a pretty good Idea what you mean but would like for you to say it your own self to remove the "that's not what I said" excuse you are counting on.
You seem to be too cowardly to let your right wing racist flag fly.
C'mon man, tell us how liberals are the most racist and are:

"Establishing a systematic discrimination of Whites just in order to achieve equality "in results" is no doubt a kind of systemic racism."

I think you are pulling the old switcheroo and dishonestly conflating a bs right wing talking point that does not actually apply and using this to fudge the amount of racism you claim with no evidence what so ever that you are accusing Liberals of.

Go ahead and show me I am wrong if you are not too cowardly to explain yourself !

I don't think I can make my position any clearer so perhaps you could do the same and explain wtf you mean.

Brian
2/6/2021 11:58:29 am

Racists don't usually think of themselves as racists, they think of themselves as "realists." It is extremely rare for a racist to use that term about themselves, as opposed to accusing their accusers of it.

That said, I have to wonder why all these folks writing allegedly "scientific" books about aliens, paranormal, fabulous ancient civilizations, etc., seem to spend most of their time opinionating on hot-button issues of their day (in the last several decades, race, culture, gender, etc.)? If they were really trying to live up to their pseudo-scientism, I'd think they'd try to keep anything smacking of opinion out of it. Of course, they're just propounding nonsense that happens to support their biases, so I guess that's a moot question.

Reply
Adam W.
2/6/2021 02:06:14 pm

Go easy on the poor guy, he's Just Asking Questions!

Reply
LeifFraNorden
2/6/2021 03:41:27 pm

When the New Yorker published a comment from von Däniken, it raised an eyebrow. Why would anyone care what he thinks about anything? And we’re quite amused that Mr. Colavito seems to have gotten under the old charlatan’s skin.

Von Däniken’s scientific writing deserves to be treated with the same confidence and respect one applies to his popular work. Enough of him.

Even so, several of things trouble us about this blog. First, Mr. Colavito seems to conflate scientific questions with politics. There are undeniable genetic differences between Africans, Europeans, and Asians. Whether these differences are great enough to constitute subspecies is a question of judgment on which legate researchers differ. That one viewpoint is favored by ‘conservatives and reactionaries’ is a red herring– In the end, the question must be decided according to scientific evidence.

Second, Mr. Colavito believes that arguing for a genetic basis of race is ipso facto racist. In line with this reasoning, a researcher who attempts to tailor medical treatment to patient genetics must also be racist.

Third, Mr. Colavito’s seems to treat his own views on sexuality, gender differences in cognition, and the role of genetics on human behavior as fact. Research into these issues is in its infancy, while in general they are poorly understood– especially in light of the reproducibility crisis and issues of falsifiability.

______________
History shows us we should be careful about conflating science with politics. Trofim Lysenko presents a well known cautionary tale. In his time, heredity was poorly understood. Lysenko based his theories on incomplete evidence (he guessed wrong), but still managed to obtain approval from the right people. As a result, researchers who disagreed were condemned, and ostracized (if they were lucky).

Another example: We learned in 7th grade science class (55 years ago), that humans were entirely without instincts beyond those displayed in a day old infant. This was a prevalent scientific view at the time– and one that aligned well with Marx: “...people are so widely malleable by their social environment that the very concept of human nature must be rejected.” Today, the denial of human nature still exists in the academy, just not in the sciences.

We read Mr. Colavito’s blog because we appreciate his skepticism, but wish he would apply it more broadly. Sometimes, it’s better to keep an open mind and simply say ‘We don’t know what we don’t know.’

Reply
T. Franke link
2/6/2021 07:27:12 pm

Leiffranorden, reading your contribution I would like to know your thoughts on just a few questions, if you have some time, please ...:

Would you agree that all human beings share the same dignity, even if there are some differences among them, of whatever kind?

Would you agree that cultural features are not necessarily inborn? And often are not inborn?

Would you agree that intelligence can be increased by education, too?

Would you agree that children do not only inherit the genes of their parents, but often their memes as well?

Would you agree that statistical differences between groups of human beings can change over time? E.g. if intelligent members of one group have more children than others and these children inherit the intelligence (by genes and by memes)? (Works the other way round too) (not to speak of such changes by social status and income)

Would be interesting to hear your answers.

Reply
leifFraNorden
2/8/2021 04:55:13 pm

____________________
Dear T. Franke:
Thanks for your response.
I will answer your questions, though my opinions matter little.
>>Would you agree that all human beings share the same dignity, even if there are some differences among them, of whatever kind?
I believe, as a matter of faith, that all human life has the same value.

>>Would you agree that cultural features are not necessarily inborn? And often are not inborn?
In a basic sense, culture is everything you learn.
According to this definition, what you say is tautological.

>>Would you agree that intelligence can be increased by education, too?
Of course. This is well documented– at least in terms of IQ scores. IQ measures the ability to solve certain classes of problems, which it isn’t the quite same thing as intelligence.
Even so, IQ is probably the best measure if intelligence we have.

>>Would you agree that children do not only inherit the genes of their parents, but often their memes as well?
No. My dictionary’s definition of inherit:
‘derive (a quality, characteristic, or predisposition) genetically from one's parents or ancestors.’ and the definition of meme: ‘an element of a culture or system of behavior that may be considered to be passed from one individual to another by monogenetic means, especially imitation.’ The two are mutually exclusive.

But a thought experiment:
For the sake of argument, assume von Däniken is a charlatan.
Let’s clone him and raise the boy in a family half way around the world. I think it unlikely he will show any interest in alien astronauts, but I suspect he would share personality traits with von Däniken, such as a lively imagination and the ability to deceive.

Your next question has a two parts.
>>Would you agree that statistical differences between groups of human beings can change over time?
This is well documented. In the case of IQ this is well documented. 100 years ago Ashkenazi Jews scored below average. Today they score considerably above.

>>E.g. if intelligent members of one group have more children than others and these children inherit the intelligence (by genes and by memes)? (Works the other way round too) (not to speak of such changes by social status and income)

What you are asking is the question that underlies eugenics.
This is in theory possible, but I honestly don’t whether it works that way in the real world– there are too many factors involved.
I strongly believe that governments and other human institutions
do not have the wisdom to incorporate eugenics as policy.

But your last question brings us to a situation where I feel quite uncomfortable. Brain researchers can, by examining a newborn brain, guess the socio-economic status of the parents fairly accurately. (Essentially, wealthier parents bear children with better developed brains.) There seems to be a body of studies which support this, though we don’t yet know why this happens.
(I add as an aside that these studies do not address race.)

Of course these studies might not hold up, but what if they do?
I want to believe that you can raise any child to be a highly intelligent adult, but what if this is not the case?

For my part, I only say that I would be profoundly disappointed.
This would be a situation where science might prove something I absolutely don’t want to believe.

PS> Thank you for your thoughtful comments which appear throughout this page.

T. Franke link
2/9/2021 05:21:21 am

Thank you, Leiffranorden, for answering.

No, I do not think that eugenics are needed to change the inborn aspects of intelligence of a group. It happens all the time, by changing economic and cultural circumstances. Sometimes the more intelligent members of a group have more children, sometimes it is the other way round. Also the (not always intentional) nudging effects of politics contribute.

Therefore, I am pretty sure that e.g. the Germanics who invaded the Western Roman empire and founded the Western European nation states (and consequently were also the ancestors of the US founding fathers) were fairly dumb at their time, and became more intelligent only in the course of time. White supremacist ideology is dumb to the core also under this perspective.

Inheritance of memes: I think of living together with your parents, and being educated by them, is a kind of "inheritance" of memes. Just the cultural mindset.

In the end, every human being deserves to be treated with the same dignity and as an individual. And every child should get a fair chance to develop as far as only possible. And for politics, it is IMHO enough to have an eye on the intelligence as such, independently whether it comes from genes or memes, simply because both are strongly correlated. It takes generations to develop families of low intelligence to families of high intelligence, and this can be understood with a purely educational perspective. There is no need to look at the genes to understand this. The memes perspective is fully sufficient.

Anthony G.
2/6/2021 05:53:23 pm

"More recently, a pseudo-historian by the name of Jason Colavito had made himself important."

Is this the new age way of saying, "GET OFF MY LAWN!!!"?

Time to start practicing your rebuttal. Take a couch pillow, pretend it is Von Daniken's sternum, and start furiously poking it while shouting, GET OFF MY PORCH!!! This tactic works really well with door-to-door religion pushers too.

GOOD JOB!!! You must have rattled his pocketbook.

Reply
Anthony G.
2/9/2021 10:06:27 am

I hope you took my advice to heart. EVD is extremely mental, and after publicly calling you out, his next step is to show up at your door. Hopefully you'll catch the encounter with a doorbell camera. I would watch that at least 10 times a day. Imagine the headline...
Author Colavito Chest Thumps Ancient Astronut. That would be clickbait for years.

Reply
Suzanne Olsson link
2/7/2021 10:48:05 am

It saddens me to see VonDaniken and Jason in a war of the words. I understand where and how Von Daniken got his ideas. he did serious scientific research-he just did not choose the same books, nor interpreted them in the same way as others. It comes down to choices; make up your mind about what you believe, then stand firm. No one understands this better than authors like VonDaniken and myself-who delve in to "fringe" areas of thinking. He believes that UFO's arrived long ago and have had a powerful influence on mankind. I will wager that a few airline and military pilots who witness :bogies" off in the distance have their alternate ideas too. If you really want to step in the doodoo, explore alternate religious explanations. Jesus died on the cross and rose the third day. OK.. We get that. But was that resurrection? Or resuscitation? And down the rabbit hole we go!!!! We'll meet on the far side.

Reply
Kent
2/7/2021 12:45:45 pm

Ms. Olsson: You have a history of including at least one wrong thing in each of your posts, the most recent being the "koalas are bears" debacle. I learned that's not true from Joan Embry on The Tonight Show.

Today it's "he did serious scientific research..." Sorry, not buying that for a minute. Saying it doesn't make it so.

"It comes down to choices; make up your mind about what you believe, then stand firm." You have an interesting idea of what science is to say the least.

Reply
Suzanne Olsson link
2/8/2021 02:55:10 pm

Dear Kent....you said "I have a history of saying at least one wrong thing in each post" then start by referring me back to koala bears, which I already explained was an error written in haste- not a scientific fact that I adhere to...Then you continue with as much bashing and counter claims as you can muster. I am flattered sir! I'd say for an elderly blonde like me, you have paid me the highest honors! Why, thank you! I am flattered to know that senility hasn't overtake me fully yet! You have a great day.

Kent
2/9/2021 08:51:51 am

There's a technical term for that:

"Getting caught".

Suzanne Olsson link
2/9/2021 11:55:44 am

Dear Kent, My you are priggish! 'Getting caught', as you call it, suggests deliberate attempts at lies and deceits ...which is not the case here..Geesh! .I feel sorry for your wife....

Kent
2/9/2021 04:04:30 pm

I'm not saying you're deliberately wrong just that you're wrong every time you post. This most recent post is yet another example.

Suzanne Olsson link
2/10/2021 04:25:55 pm

Dear Kent, You seem relentless...Tis better that I leave Jason's site rather than engage in who gets last word, or how stupid and insignificant you wish to make me......You may have at it sir. I wish Jason all the best....and you too Kent (or whatever your name is).

Martin Stower
2/7/2021 01:24:03 pm

To be called a “pseudo-scientist” by Erich von Däniken is surely a badge of honour.

Reply
Jerry E Stephens
2/7/2021 01:57:02 pm

I'm surprised that Von Daniken is still alive.I've not rwad anything of his since the 1970s. I'm always astonished that anyone gives him credence at all.

Reply
Nerd11135
2/11/2021 11:07:42 am

OK just to settle a few points.

1 - Von Daniken did no serious scientific inquiry or investigation. This is easily demonstrated by the fact that the notions in his books were debunked as far back as the 1970s, by actual serious scientific inquiry or investigation, as was related on a PBS documentary. Sad to say many of the same points had to be repeated by the more-recent Internet film "Ancient Aliens Debunked."

2 - Mr. Colavito, and to a lesser extent myself, have done more than say "racists like the ideas, therefore the ideas are bad." It also can be demonstrated that racists like these ideas because these ideas reflect that ideology, and/or are excellent complements to it, and/or because the ideology is actually reflected in these ideas (or reverse order -- doesn't really matter at this point). Clear lines can be drawn and Mr. Colavito has drawn them. (And, again, to a lesser extent, so have I.) The problem is that it takes more space to show these connections than it does to just say "lol nope." And, thanks in no small part to these ideas and the Conservative ideologies they alternately reflect and underlie, "lol nope" is considered a strong argument these days.

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    • The Antediluvian Pyramid Myth
    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Eridu Genesis
          • Atrahasis Epic
          • Epic of Gilgamesh
          • Kutha Creation Legend
          • Babylonian Creation Myth
          • Descent of Ishtar
          • Resurrection of Marduk
          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Zoroastrian Fatal Winter
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sacred History of Euhemerus
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Fragments of Artapanus
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Fragments of Bruttius
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Byzantine World Chronicle
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Chronicle to 724
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Pseudo-Diocles Fragmentum
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • Popol Vuh
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Atlantis as Biblical History
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Atlantis and Nimrod
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and Hanno's Periplus
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
          • Amazing New Light (Hoax)
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • History of Paleontology
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • Arabic Names of Egyptian Kings
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • America Known to the Ancients
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Remarkable Discoveries Within the Sphinx (Hoax)
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • The Shaver Mystery >
          • Lovecraft and the Deros
          • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • CIA Search for the Ark of the Covenant
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • The Fall of the Sky
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Poltergeist UFOs
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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