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Father Crespi and the Toilet Tank Float of the Gods

3/26/2015

80 Comments

 
I was initially reluctant to post about the viral image going around Facebook this week showing what appears to be a side-by-side comparison of an ancient Egyptian image of Isis and a metal duplicate of the same from ancient Ecuador. The photo has been circulating for at least four years, and I had assumed that many would quickly recognize it for what it was. I was wrong, and as the number of people writing to me to ask for an explanation grew, I realized I had write something about the image you’ll see below:
Picture
Popular Facebook meme circulating this week.
The image on the left is a piece of ancient Egyptian art. The image on the right is a hammered sheet metal copy of the same, produced by a local artisan in Ecuador and sold to Father Carlo Crespi (1891-1982) in the late 1960s or early 1970s, according to other appearances of the same item in fringe literature and videos. The Italian-born Catholic priest displayed the item in his three-room museum at the Church of Maria Auxiliadora in Cuenca, Ecuador alongside hundreds of other modern forgeries that he believed demonstrated that Babylonians and Egyptians were the first inhabitants of what is today Ecuador.

So, silly me, I shared with some people on Facebook that the Ecuadoran image was from the Crespi collection, which prompted queries asking for proof that Father Crespi’s absurd grouping of modern forgeries was in fact made up of fakes. Here’s where things got interesting. I wasn’t able to immediately provide that information. Neither Skeptical Inquirer nor The Skeptic’s Dictionary had entries for Crespi, and nearly everything written about him online comes from fringe writers. So it seems that a few facts about Father Crespi’s “artifacts” are in order.

Father Crespi’s artifacts were nothing more than a local curiosity in Ecuador—encouraged by a government looking to instill pride in the country as the cradle of civilization—until ancient astronaut theorist Erich von Däniken showed up to do research for his third book, Gold of the Gods (1972). A local named Juan Móricz had come to believe that the stories that people were telling about Father Crespi’s cache of golden objects of ancient provenance had lent credence to an idea he developed that impressive natural caves in Ecuador were actually artificial, and had been built by a lost race of giants, who stuffed them full of their treasures. He invited von Däniken to write about the wonders of this cave, and von Däniken later admitted to Playboy magazine that he fabricated his account of his visit to this cave. I’ve told that story before. However, Móricz also took von Däniken to visit the elderly Father Crespi, and it was his account of Crespi’s gold in Gold of the Gods that turned the artifacts into a global phenomenon.
Picture
In Gold, von Däniken asserts that Crespi’s treasures came from the cave Móricz had found and that it is the “biggest gold treasure” found underground in South America. He claimed that there was a room of stone artifacts, one of mixed precious metals of Incan vintage, and one of antediluvian “gold and pure gold.” “You have to be very strong-willed not to get ‘gold-drunk,’” von Däniken wrote, and he gushed that Crespi had confessed that his gold hoard predated Noah’s Flood!

These claims did not go unchallenged. Shortly after the publication of Gold of the Gods the German magazine Der Spiegel published a major issue in 1973 devoted to exposing Erich von Däniken’s “swindle,” and in it they interviewed Juan Móricz, the local Ecuadoran who introduced von Däniken to the supposed cave of golden alien artifacts. In 1974, von Däniken admitted to Playboy that he had not been in the cave (and still later he recanted his confession). Anyway, Móricz was also responsible for taking our author to visit Father Crespi to view his collection. Der Spiegel asked Móricz about the artifacts after the magazine had determined that pieces were fraudulent. Móricz concurred, in my translation:

SPIEGEL: In Cuenca, you showed him the collection of Father Crespi. Did you not warn him of the many fake pieces?

MÓRICZ: Yes, we had told him that although Crespi had previously collected much of value, today the genuine pieces are buried under a cacophony of crap. Most of the two rooms are stuffed to the ceiling with sheet metal. Nevertheless Däniken wanted to photograph everything. He went crazy. From ten in the morning until three in the afternoon, he took pictures, and I think it’s not just the genuine pieces that he has shown in his book.
Von Däniken would later accuse Móricz of lying to discredit him. But that wasn’t all. The previous year, in 1972, Der Spiegel had reported that a scholar named Dr. Hartmann had viewed the artifacts and determined that while there were a few genuine pre-Hispanic stone pieces, most of the metal ones were forgeries made from tin and brass, including a large number of tourist trinkets. Anton Graf Preising concurred that there were a few valuable items among the mounds of forgeries. Danish archaeologist Olaf Holm said that the elderly Crespi wasn’t able to tell tin from silver, or brass from gold.

In a second 1973 piece from the same issue attacking von Däniken’s “swindle,” Der Spiegel noted that von Däniken seemed oblivious to the fact that the artifacts he once labeled confidently as “gold” were nothing more than imitation gold, made from sheet metal, copper, brass, and tin, happily calling them gold one minute and the next declaring their exact metallic content irrelevant:
The sheet metal and brass that he finds in the backyard of the Church of Maria Auxiliadora of Father Carlo Crespi is for him gold—and subjectively for him at that moment it really is gold. Däniken is not a fraudster. However, later he can, without hesitation and without concern, implausibly wipe away any reference to the tinny facts: “I do not know whether there is gold or not; what is important are the engraved characters.” (my trans.) 
After this was exposed, von Däniken changed his tune and admitted later that year in In Search of Ancient Gods that the artifacts were “brass, copper, sheet-metal, zinc, tin and wooden objects, and in the midst of them all pure gold.” He admitted, too, that Father Crespi was suffering from what we would today call dementia (James Randi recalled that in the 1960s Crespi was already frail, confused, and believed Hannibal brought elephants to Ecuador), but von Däniken claimed that there was a secret core of genuine artifacts amid all the locally made crap.

Weirdly enough, this was pretty much all that was said about Father Crespi for a while. The German pieces made little impact on this side of the Atlantic, and von Däniken’s rebuttal wouldn’t be translated into English for several years, reaching most readers in a 1982 paperback edition. In 1976, Ronald Story, writing in The Space Gods Revealed, an exposé of von Däniken, reported that archaeologist Pino Turolla had traveled to Crespi’s museum and investigated the artifacts found therein. “Turolla has seen the little factory clearing where, he says, the stuff is actually made” from tin, sheet metal, and other pieces of detritus. Worse, Turolla had told the Miami News that he figured out exactly what some of the objects were made from: plumbing supplies. “Once I recognized a copper toilet bowl float in Father Crespi’s collection.” Turolla went on to give a full account of his adventures with Father Crespi in his 1980 book Beyond the Andes.

It turns out that all of this could have been avoided had von Däniken just asked James Randi about Father Crespi’s collection. I turns out that in the 1960s, at least five years before von Däniken tramped through, Randi had traveled to Ecuador and Peru in search of the same fictitious “treasure cave” and had also paid a call on Father Crespi, who was happy to show him his collection. Writing in The Flim-Flam! (1980), Randi recalled the scene:
I was speechless: not for the same reason as von Däniken, however. The collection was a total, unmitigated fraud from wall to wall. Scraps of tin cans, brass sheets, and copper strips abounded, mixed with piles of rusted chains, shards of armor, and bits of miscellaneous machinery. Some of the brass sheets were embossed and scratched with everything from elephants to dinosaurs. […] I came across a copper float for a toilet tank and an embossed tin can on which the words “product of Argentina” were still visible.
Yes, the toilet float was there in the 1960s and stayed for almost twenty years! (To be entirely honest, the correspondence between Randi’s visit to Crespi and Turolla’s is rather astonishing.)

Randi found a single golden object, apparently reworked from an ancient piece that had been looted and hammered into a new shape to escape antiquities laws, and then impressed with a crude depiction of a pyramid and flying snakes. That gold object appears in Gold of the Gods.
Picture
Crespi's gold object, via Ancient Alien Fanatic Tumblr.
Crespi told both Turolla and Randi that he paid the locals in money, clothes, and indulgences to bring him “artifacts” and had told them that he believed that the Egyptians and Babylonians had settled the Andes. Not surprisingly, local artisans delivered to him imitations of Egyptian and Babylonian art, often copied from books. Crespi, whom Randi felt was gullible and deluded, seemed to have difficulty telling the difference between gold, copper, and tin even in the 1960s, and according to Olaf Holm, that only grew worse by the 1970s.

But thanks to von Däniken, Crespi became a folk hero to fringe history believers, and today you will find not just people who consider him a sort of martyr to diffusionism but also people who think that he was Adolf Hitler, escaped from Germany to preserve the Nazis’ secret knowledge of earth’s true heritage in remote Ecuador. That theory was promoted as early as 1997 by Sean David Morton, the self-described psychic who was charged with fraud, claimed a fake Ph.D., and mysteriously disappeared from Ancient Aliens. He, of course, is now a fringe radio host. It apparently originates with Col. Wendell Stephens, who in 1981 met Crespi and decided he was Hitler, according to fringe sources. But of that part of the story, I know nothing more.
80 Comments
EP
3/26/2015 07:36:42 am

One of the best posts in a while, Jason. Good job!

Reply
Flashback
3/26/2015 01:51:26 pm

Here from 1977 (poor quality upload but it's the only thing available

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DsOjqHm-VY

And going back to the previous blog about Aliens and Religion, this debate has also been uploaded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCaKY0rWwjQ

Reply
Robert Lebling link
4/7/2015 05:39:11 am

You missed the very best part of this saga: Juan Moritz's claims about a cave in the jungle filled with artifacts led to a British-Ecuadorian exploratory expedition, under Stanley Hall, in about 1976. That expedition was shrouded in mystery, but the Ecuadorian press found it interesting that Neil Armstrong, the first man on the moon, was brought in as expedition honorary chairman. Armstrong went down into the caves, and was photographed coming out of them. He wouldn't say anything about what he saw there, and the expedition's findings were not released.... Crespi was just an odd old man on the periphery of this drama.... Eventually Peru and Ecuador went to war over the border region where this cave was, but no one can seem to figure out why they fought.... A lot more investigation is called for! :)

Reply
Marty
7/30/2019 08:34:09 pm

I'm glad you posted this information. No one EVER questioned the validity of Father Crespi until his death. The Ecuadorian Government is VERY closed about letting people into Ecuador, even to the point of charging a $25,000 fee just to travel there because they don't let just anyone live there. This country has lots to hide and there's good reason to try to limit exposure to outsiders. I've followed Father Crespi and the paid "invalidators" never became real until after his death. The astronaut Mason will never tell the truth but continue the deception and fraud. Nothing is where they tell us it is because for the last 1000 years the entire earth has been mined and excavated beyond recognition from descriptions of the Egyptian voyagers who sailed around the world mining gold to England, Spain, France, Switzerland/Holland tearing up the earth trying to build lavish kingdoms for themselves. They will always mark their lies with the number 33 and Neil Armstrong is a 33 degree mason just like all astronauts are. Being a lying cheat pays well, really well and none of them are American citizens that's why they don't have to at taxes. Anyway, it could have been Hitler and I doubt that that old man would save a bunch of unauthentic junk for over 50 years. He was young and intelligent when he began collecting, even going to the caves himself but after age catching up to him would send the children. He was also old enough to know the real history of Ecuador before the liars re-wrote it just like they have everything else. How can people trust the same liars that erased and entire civilization that lived for 2-300 years in the Americas prior to England, France, Switzerland, Spain...gee the same countries that invaded Peru...Ecuador... 🙄😒 I remember when they sent those "explorers" in and I remember how shrouded in secrecy it was and how they then mysteriously now wanted this area sanctioned by government for no one to be able to enter it. Total bullshit from U.S. pussy puppets that sold the people out long ago. Freemasons are cowards and puppets.

CL Palmer
2/24/2016 11:04:34 am

There is a lot of hearsay on both sides of the issue, but I never see any real evidence, except the photos, to back any of it up. I tend to believe that there were some fakes and probably a great deal of real artifacts as well; having been to Ecuador and lived there for years, most Ecuadorians are very respectful of the Catholic Church and would be quite unlikely to rip off a priest. This is especially true of the indigenous people. Also, you use the word fringe a lot to describe people you disagree with--that's just ad hominem and pretty much sums up your argument. Not to be a jerk or anything, but you need more than skepticism to disprove anything. "I can't prove it so it's wrong" isn't a valid argument.

Reply
Karl
3/6/2016 11:20:49 am

"most Ecuadorians are very respectful of the Catholic Church and would be quite unlikely to rip off a priest"

Most humans are unlikely to ripoff another person. But there are people able to rip off another human being regardless of what kind of collar the "mark" wears or what passport the con artist has in his/her pocket. Let's not even get into the phenomenon of pious fraud. Sorry, it's not hard for me to think there are people in Ecuador capable of committing pious fraud (and if they have to be, you know, fairly compensated for their efforts, well...).

"I can't prove it so it's wrong" isn't a valid argument."

I don't think Jason was making that argument. Could you specify where he was making that argument? I read it as the onus is always on the person to provide sufficient evidence to back a claim. The role of the skeptic is to suggest many possible objections that need to be answered first. For example, how do you eliminate the objects being of modern manufacture for the sake of pious fraud?

"Also, you use the word fringe a lot to describe people you disagree with--that's just ad hominem and pretty much sums up your argument."

Suggesting a person and his/her hypothesis are on the fringe is simply a way of pointing out the person's hypothesis is not shared by the vast majority of experts in the field. That's not an argument in itself. But it's an important point to be made by skeptics when people try to skip over the process of peer review and publication and take their claims directly to the public.

Irna link
3/26/2015 07:53:28 am

Excellent! I was despairing to find a non-fringe resource about Crespi, and too lazy to write it myself :)

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Clint Knapp
3/26/2015 07:55:08 am

Toilet tank floats and Crespi's unassuming generosity aside, I wasn't aware of the retooled gold piece until now. It's rather disheartening to think that there might have been genuine pieces of archaeological significance hammered up and melted down to make some trash to fool an old priest with.

Von Daniken being drunk on gold sounds pretty much par, though. It is, after all, all about the money with that guy.

On a side note; did Weebly update yesterday? I noticed the comments section on yesterday's post proclaiming 15 comments while only showing 11 while <br> tags filled what should've been line breaks and some posts in the Atlantis article are simply missing or re-arranged.

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Jason Colavito link
3/26/2015 07:58:50 am

There must have been a system failure somewhere, but I'm not sure exactly what happened. I have an inquiry in to try to find out.

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EP
3/26/2015 10:13:25 am

It's also eaten several of my posts yesterday and today (an at least one of Shane's, as I recall).

EP
3/26/2015 10:19:53 am

The missing comments from yesterday are mine and Shane's. They disappeared somewhere but the count remained unchanged. Ditto for two of my comments in this thread (which it said were posted successfully but didn't even appear).

Scott Hamilton
3/26/2015 08:56:31 am

Heh. The second time today I read about Juan Moricz.

I've been going through Tim Green Beckley's UFOs - Wicked This Way Come, and it includes a chapter from Scott Corrales on underground "Ultra-Terrestrials." I was quite struck by claims of expeditions into tunnels under Cuzco, and particularly the story of a "French explorer" named Pierre Lamontierre who entered the tunnels in 1952 with 11 other people but came out alone, carrying a solid gold ear of corn and sick with bubonic plague! Google doesn't turn up anything else about Pierre, other than plagiarized version of the same story. I did notice that there are other stories from Peru about tunnels under churches that also yield gold ears of corn. Not quite sure what that's all about.

In any case, then the chapter goes into Moricz. One odd bit: Corrales states as fact that Moricz was a "Hungarian nobleman turned Argentinean citizen."

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Clint Knapp
3/26/2015 10:00:41 am

The gold ears of corn, at least, seem likely to be cribbed from the legend surrounding Pizarro's ransom price for Atahualpa's release.

According to this article:
http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/archaeology/lost-inca-gold/

"Treasure seeker Barth Blake followed up Spruce's discovery in 1886. If his writings are to be believed, Blake was the last person to find the gold. In one letter he wrote: "There are thousands of gold and silver pieces of Inca and pre-Inca handicraft, the most beautiful goldsmith works you are not able to imagine." He detailed life-size human figurines, birds and other animals, flowers, and cornstalks, as well as "the most incredible jewelry" and "golden vases full of emeralds." But, Blake claimed, "I could not remove it alone, nor could thousands of men."

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EP
3/26/2015 10:10:28 am

"nor could thousands of men"

This is the part that makes it realistic ;)

Clint Knapp
3/26/2015 10:35:38 am

More appropriately, the text of the Blake quote as propagated through various treasure hunting books and websites:

"It is impossible for me to describe the wealth that now lays in that cave marked on my map, but I could not remove it alone, nor could thousands of men….There are thousands of gold and silver pieces of Inca and pre-Inca handicraft, the most beautiful goldsmith works you are not able to imagine, life-size human figures made out of beaten gold and silver, birds, animals, cornstalks, gold and silver flowers. Pots full of the most incredible jewelry. Golden vases full of emeralds."

I cannot, however, find evidence of Blake's writing beyond this oft-repeated quote or confirmation he was a real person outside of the myth, in which he's given the title of Captain in the Royal Navy.

At a guess, the ears probably get repeated more often than the rest of Blake's list just because they're more easily recognizable as being native to the American continents than generic descriptions of figures of birds and people.

Clint Knapp
3/26/2015 02:45:21 pm

Let's try this again since the last response was eaten and it seems a few are making it through now...

I dug up the Blake quote that article references, but can't find a primary for it beyond repeated references that it comes from one of Captain Barth Blake's letters:

"It is impossible for me to describe the wealth that now lays in that cave marked on my map, but I could not remove it alone, nor could thousands of men….There are thousands of gold and silver pieces of Inca and pre-Inca handicraft, the most beautiful goldsmith works you are not able to imagine, life-size human figures made out of beaten gold and silver, birds, animals, cornstalks, gold and silver flowers. Pots full of the most incredible jewelry. Golden vases full of emeralds."

The quote, however, is recycled over and over (to the point the NatGeo article rewrites it for no good reason when a quote would do) in treasure hunting websites and books on the "Lost Inca Gold" with no actual citation. I can't find any proof Barth Blake was real, either. He's only credited as a Captain in the Royal Navy and it's claimed he "fell overboard" on his return trip to try and sell some of that sweet Inca swag.

I'd guess you keep finding "golden ears of corn" stories because the Blake story makes them a part of Atahualpa's treasure, and secret tunnels stuffed with gold in South America simply must be Incan by association.

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Shane Sullivan
3/26/2015 09:00:25 am

Jason, how you can believe that pyramid image is anything other than an authentic depiction of the famed Floating Cats of Giza dating back to Pharaonic times is totally shocking to me. =P

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Alaric
3/26/2015 09:54:34 am

Cat images! Proof that the ancients had internet!

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Alaric
3/26/2015 10:04:28 am

Actually, those are normal-sized elephants. The cats are giant cats. "There were giants in those days" doesn't specify HUMAN giants.

Bob Jase
3/26/2015 12:11:48 pm

Cats! Proof that ancient Egypt had contact with Ulthar.

Hypatia
3/27/2015 05:17:59 am

Yes, those tiny elephants are so cute! I'm sorry they destroyed a real artifact, but this is also a work of art.
Too bad the toilet float disappeared, it could have made a nice little flying saucer.

Alaric
3/27/2015 09:52:01 am

Actually, those a regular-sized elephants. The cats are giants cats. "There were giants in the Earth in those days..." They never specified HUMAN giants...

EP
3/26/2015 09:55:04 am

I like the tiny elephants :)

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Jason Colavito link
3/26/2015 10:41:27 am

To everyone: The comments aren't working right, and for some reason, comments are disappearing. I'm working with Weebly on the issue, but it might take a while to fix.

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Uncle Ron
3/26/2015 02:13:37 pm

This comment has disappeared!

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Hypatia
3/27/2015 05:07:23 am

..flushed out into the internetian black hole

Clete
3/27/2015 04:25:45 am

About six months ago I had to fix my toilet. In doing so, I threw away the old copper toilet float, unaware that I was throwing away a valuable ancient artifact. I should have kept it and sent it to Erich Von Daniken. He probably could have gotten another book out of it, "Plumbing fixtures of the Gods."

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tm
3/27/2015 04:51:11 am

Oh, now I get it. Those stories in which people saw an ancient alien fly were translated incorrectly. They actually said they saw an ancient alien float!

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EP
3/27/2015 05:02:18 am

I just wanna post goddammit! Stupid Weebly!

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Hypatia
3/27/2015 05:23:57 am

...testing...1.2.3...
quick comment before it disappears into the black hole:
Too bad the toilet float disappeared, it could have been a great flying saucer.

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EP
3/27/2015 05:25:54 am

My comments! My witty, erudite comments! NOOOOOO!!!

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Shane Sullivan
3/27/2015 05:45:09 am

I know, man, I posted yesterday in that Thorwald thread that we couldn't prove that there wasn't a man from Nantucket, only that his incredible genitals hadn't yet been discovered. That post never went through, and now the world has been deprived of that masterpiece!

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Clint Knapp
3/27/2015 06:17:34 am

And this one is a reply to Shane. For testing purposes...

Clint Knapp
3/27/2015 06:15:56 am

If it helps, I think I've spotted a pattern in the comment failures. The nesting is screwed up. My second post in the "golden ears of corn" comment above was actually a reply to Scott's post, not to my own, but it renders as a reply to my reply...

It might be possible to still post as long as one replies to the original comment instead of the replies to that comment. We'll see in a second when I hit Submit on this and note it's actually a reply to EP's...

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Clint Knapp
3/27/2015 06:18:31 am

Yep. I also tried to reply to Shane's just after that one. It didn't render at all, and this again is a reply to EP.

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Shane Sullivan
3/27/2015 06:26:35 am

I noticed replies were going well beyond the usual second degree. They all have a reply button, too.

Thanks for the tip.

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rw
3/27/2015 06:38:47 am

it seems that weebly has been losing your witty, erudite comments for quite some time. inexplicably, your other comments always manage to get posted.

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EP
3/27/2015 07:20:11 am

That was a pretty good one, rw, even if I did kinda leave the door wide open :)

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EP
3/27/2015 07:23:22 am

Weebly may not be the Hitler of blogging platforms, but it's definitely the Father Crespi of blogging platforms :)

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Alaric
3/27/2015 09:54:01 am

The witty comment I tried posting yesterday still disappears when I post it. Something out there doesn't appreciate my sense of humor.

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Joanne
3/28/2015 03:04:43 am

An excellent critique. Incidentally, Amazon delivered my copy of your new anthology, "Foundations of Atlantis, Astronauts and Other Alternative Pasts". I am barely into the depths of it, but I reviewed the index, table of contents, intro, and a few of the texts. It is wonderful and fascinating. Thanks for your approach - you identify and offer translations of old texts accurately and honestly, without a personal agenda.

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Scotty Roberts link
3/28/2015 10:48:38 am

JASON SAID:
"So, silly me, I shared with some people on Facebook that the Ecuadoran image was from the Crespi collection, which prompted queries asking for proof that Father Crespi’s absurd grouping of modern forgeries was in fact made up of fakes."

Now, now, Jason, you KNOW that is NOT how that exchange transpired. The way you state this is a bit misleading.

That picture was posted by a FaceBook friend on my page. You came in and also responded that the Crespi Collection was well-known to be fake, and you statd a few cursory facts.

In response, I asked if you could post some sources on the Crespi stuff, because all I could find were sites that praised his work from the perspective of the woo-community.

I asked you if you could give us all some information on the research work done on Crespi's "artifacts." I wanted to give you the opportunity to show what you have researched.

As is normally the case, what you stated in your quote above is "true," but you color it as if it was a bunch of idiot woo meisters responding to you with an "Oh-yeah?-Well-PROVE-it-wasn't-aliens" sort of thing. When that is not what happened.

And I thanked you for your input and supported it.

You have got to work harder to be more honest to the intent of things when you write about them. This is a huge problem with your criticisms. And this quote represents only a microcosm of that problem.

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Jason Colavito link
3/28/2015 11:52:03 am

I appreciate you thinking you're the only one to have been discussing that picture, but you were one of at least four threads where I was commenting on that same picture, and I received a number of private messages, too, asking for more information about Crespi. Your assumption that I am necessarily referring only to you is a microcosm of your own assumptions.

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Scotty Roberts link
3/28/2015 08:44:56 pm

Jason,
I fully assumed that you had been down this route before regarding Crespi, and had no doubt that you have addressed that topic in threads other than mine. I, however, was referring, above, specifically to your's and my exchange.

I operated under no assumption that you commented solely on the post someone put up on my FB page.

My assertion, however, is that you present a lot of information that skirts journalistic integrity.

But then again, you are not a journalist, you're merely a critic who spends little-to-no time presenting all the facts about... anything. You present only your facts and deliciously color them to pander to your audience. Yet your blogging career is based on decrying others for engaging in that very same thing.

You are like a food critic who walks into a Chinese restaurant, not liking Chinese cuisine to begin with, then finds every way to criticize the chef because the walls are painted red, and his food doesn't taste like a cheeseburger, which - duh - is what any good Chinese-American establishment would serve. Then you would go on to write about how proper Moo Goo Gai Pan should be made.

I maintain what I wrote above: "You have got to work harder to be more honest to the intent of things when you write about them. This is a huge problem with your criticisms. And [your] quote represents only a microcosm of that problem."

Scotty Roberts link
3/29/2015 04:10:33 am

Jason,
I didn't assume that your comments on my FaceBook thread were the ONLY place you chatted about the Crespi Collection photo. But your comments above did match the pattern of the exchange we had, earlier this week.

And, yes, silly you for sharing your insights to people who would actually ask for more information. Inconceivable.

Neither you nor I are unassuming about much of anything, and I maintain my assertion that you pander to your audience in your continual omission of facts that are unimportant to bolstering whatever case you are attempting to make.

As I said in our phone conversation several weeks ago, you aren't a journalist, you're a critic.

Scott Roberts link
3/29/2015 04:11:08 am

Jason,
I didn't assume that your comments on my FaceBook thread were the ONLY place you chatted about the Crespi Collection photo. But your comments above did match the pattern of the exchange we had, earlier this week.

And, yes, silly you for sharing your insights to people who would actually ask for more information. Inconceivable.

Neither you nor I are unassuming about much of anything, and I maintain my assertion that you pander to your audience in your continual omission of facts that are unimportant to bolstering whatever case you are attempting to make.

As I said in our phone conversation several weeks ago, you aren't a journalist, you're a critic.

terry the censor
4/20/2015 04:32:58 pm

@Scotty R
> you are not a journalist, you're merely a critic

So lame. Why don't you also say Jason is jealous/afraid of the truth/secretly believes what he debunks/a paid-off disinfo agent/blocking your healing psychic love emanations with his negative thoughts?

Clint Knapp
3/28/2015 12:58:01 pm

Scotty,
You have to be joking, right? Where in that recounting does he color the people OR the enquiries as "a bunch of idiot woo meisters responding to you with an "Oh-yeah?-Well-PROVE-it-wasn't-aliens" sort of thing"?

He says nothing about the quality of the people or their responses at all, only the quality of the objects. Hence the phrase "Father Crespi's absurd grouping of modern forgeries". It describes the collection, Scotty, nothing more.

Reply
EP
3/28/2015 04:11:24 pm

ITT: Scotty Roberts begging to be reminded that no matter how hard he tries he cannot escape the fact that he is part of the "woo-community". (And a painfully mediocre one at that.)

LOL

Reply
EP
3/28/2015 04:17:20 pm

"Your assumption that I am necessarily referring only to you is a microcosm of your own assumptions."

LOL Owned.

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Scotty Roberts link
3/29/2015 04:11:38 am

Jason,
I didn't assume that your comments on my FaceBook thread were the ONLY place you chatted about the Crespi Collection photo. But your comments above did match the pattern of the exchange we had, earlier this week.

And, yes, silly you for sharing your insights to people who would actually ask for more information. Inconceivable.

Neither you nor I are unassuming about much of anything, and I maintain my assertion that you pander to your audience in your continual omission of facts that are unimportant to bolstering whatever case you are attempting to make.

As I said in our phone conversation several weeks ago, you aren't a journalist, you're a critic.

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Clint Knapp
3/29/2015 06:16:27 am

You really have issues with reading comprehension, don't you, Scotty?

Notice the two sentences immediately following the single sentence you've taken umbrage with: "Here’s where things got interesting. I wasn’t able to immediately provide that information."

He's not talking about the forum in which the discussion took place: he's admitting it was silly of himself to respond without a complete answer already at hand. It's an admission of failure explaining the process through which this article came about.

Honestly. If you can't be bothered to read the entire paragraph, don't quote it to complain about a single sentence.

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Scotty Roberts link
3/29/2015 07:54:39 am

Hypatia,
I DO see that as one of Jason's handicaps - he never actually talks with anyone he writes about, stating that is his way to remain "objective." But he is anything BUT objective.

Most journalists would give a body part to speak firsthand with the subject of their opinions, especially when they are readily available for comment. That's journalism.

Its easy to criticize without taking the time to talk to the subject of one's criticism.

Hypatia
3/29/2015 06:39:42 am

It depends on your new definition of 'journalist.' In the olden days, when there was a first amendment, journalists were supposed to ask critical questions and record the answers, not just record people's orations and opine.

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Hypatia
3/29/2015 06:57:25 am

-correction-
In the olden days, when there was a first amendment, journalists were supposed to ask critical questions and record the answers, not just record people's orations and agree.

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Scotty Roberts link
3/29/2015 07:56:42 am

Hypatia,
I DO see that as one of Jason's handicaps - he never actually talks with anyone he writes about, stating that is his way to remain "objective." But he is anything BUT objective.

Most journalists would give a body part to speak firsthand with the subject of their opinions, especially when they are readily available for comment. That's journalism.

Its easy to criticize without taking the time to talk to the subject of one's criticism.

Clint,
No, I have no problem with reading comprehension. And I understood it, as I had the exchange with him, and have a pretty good handle on Jason's overall work and approach.

Reply
Scotty Roberts link
3/29/2015 07:59:04 am

I should also add that, in general, Jason shouldn't "bother" writing criticisms without first applying some rules of objectivity - which he claims he has, but in actuality, does not practice.

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EP
3/29/2015 12:00:52 pm

Tell us more about these "rules of objectivity", Scotty. I'm sure you have many deep philosophical insights to share.

terry the censor
4/20/2015 04:37:05 pm

@Scotty R.

You are insisting that when people are gabbing on Facebook, they are required to act like journalists?

Are you logged onto Bizarro Facebook maybe?

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Only Me
3/29/2015 09:57:37 am

Scotty, I don't think you're being fair toward Jason.

As I don't have Facebook, I can't read your exchanges, but, taking his quote at face value, I don't see him "coloring" the participants as "a bunch of idiot woo meisters". If anything, I take his quote as self-deprecating. He stated the Crespi collection was composed of fakes, you asked for sources he readily admits he didn't have available, and so, the above post was born.

You say he doesn't talk to anyone and journalists would speak to the subject of their opinion. There's a reason for that. Depending on the tone of the conversation, it may directly impact how his reviews are written. If the conversation was pleasant and respectful, he might be tempted to overlook weaknesses in the individual's work. Conversely, if the conversation was tense or confrontational, he might be tempted to highlight every mistake, no matter how trivial. In either case, objectivity is cast aside. This is especially troublesome if the individual in question decides *not* to communicate with Jason, whatsoever.

You would also have to remember, unless we're talking about a one-on-one interview, you are not the subject. Yes, your work reflects the information on a subject written in your voice, from your point of view, but how it's written also affects Jason's review. Does it reflect what you personally believe, or was it written in as neutral a tone as you could? I sincerely hope you aren't making the same mistake as Scott Wolter...that a critique of your work, based on the research and sources you provide, constitutes an attack on you as a person.

And, in the name of fairness, did you actually talk to Jason about what he meant, in regards to the quote you found objectionable? Or did you jump to a conclusion and decide to post it here?

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Scotty Roberts link
3/29/2015 01:04:33 pm

You are right, Only Me - you too, Clint.

I did jump a little too quickly. I read the entire article, but I filtered Jason's initial comments through my experience with many other things he's written.

For instance, were I an "ancient alienist," and I said something like, "I wonder what's out there in the universe?" You MIGHT tend to think you already know what I am thinking. I will admit that I did that with Jason's comment in this instance.

I did have an exchange with Jason in my public thread on FaceBook, and it was very polite and in good nature. I've also spoken with Jason on the phone.

I was also commenting,, above, on how I find Jason to work, in general.

Thanks, Only Me.

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Scotty Roberts link
3/29/2015 01:40:17 pm

Only Me,
I have never had an issue with critical review of my work. Where I have a problem is that if someone thinks your premise is hogwash, it immediately goes to character assassination.

I don't believe criticism of my WORK is the same as a personal attack. But I think you and many others here have seen where the critical review has gone way beyond the pale into personal attacks and blatant character assassination - and almost always from anonymous people who don't have the nads to put their name to their attacks.

If I need to be accountable for what I write, shouldn't an anonymous assailant (not to be confused with an anonymous critic) be held accountable for what they say?

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Only Me
3/29/2015 01:41:38 pm

I understand, Scotty. I also understand Jason has been writing about fringe topics longer than I've been a reader here, so, I would imagine there's a tendency to write each new blog post with filters in place (trying not to do this is the real challenge!). One can only revisit the same themes so many times before it becomes monotonous.

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EP
3/29/2015 11:31:20 am

Scotty, if you want people to take you seriously, you should have thought about it before writing about Reptilians, drawing anthropomorphized bunnies, and hanging out with ghost hunters and dowsers.

At this stage of the game, however, it's kinda too late. So even if your complaint was reasonable (and it isn't), your protestations that you're not like those *other* dumb fringe figures are going to be met with derision.

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Scotty Roberts link
3/29/2015 01:31:14 pm

EP,
So, you are saying that anthropomorphized stories for kids are a bad thing and cannot be taken as "serious" artistic work?

I've asked you this question before, but you never answer. That does not, however, prevent you from continually quipping about it.

Can anyone else defend EP's position on anthropomorphized work?

I'd like you to clarify what you mean by that, because most of what I see out there in children's/young adult books, cartoons and movies is anthropomorphized... Winnie the Pooh, Watership Down, Brian Jaques' Redwall books, Micky Mouse, Octonauts, Peter Rabbit, and a myriad of other stories in books and other media.

Anthropomorphized work is a vehicle to carry a story.

And for those who don't know what EP is referring to, you can see "The Rollicking Adventures of Tam O'Hare," here:
http://www.tamohare.com


I have six children, two of them already out of the house, one teenage boy, and three below the age of six, and ALL of them - and every parent and child I know through the schools, churches, libraries and other venues - read and view anthropomorphized stories every day.

And by your way of thinking, writing about the Nephilim and Reptilian mythology, as well as Moses, the Exodus and Pharaonic Egypt - as well as being the Editor-In-Chief of the Ghost Hunters' official magazine, engaging in paranormal investigation and dowsing somehow disqualifies me from being a critical thinker with an reasoned opinion.... how? Because you happen to not like any of those things?

And frankly, I've never said anything about how I should or should not be compared to anyone else out there. I happen to believe you can tackle writing about weird things and still know a shitload about geopolitics, psychology, geography, theology, history, science and literature.

If your world is too small for that, then that is your choice.

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EP
3/29/2015 02:11:37 pm

"engaging in paranormal investigation and dowsing somehow disqualifies me from being a critical thinker with an reasoned opinion.... how?"

Quoting not because it merits a response, but to highlight how absurd you are.

"I happen to believe you can tackle writing about weird things and still know a shitload about geopolitics, psychology, geography, theology, history, science and literature."

*One* can, Scotty. *You* specifically, however...

Never stop posting. You do your children proud with every post.

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Scotty Roberts link
3/29/2015 02:22:40 pm

And, once again, EP, you avoid clarifying your position on anthropomorphized literature.

Nice punt.

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EP
3/29/2015 04:10:39 pm

"once again, EP, you avoid clarifying your position on anthropomorphized literature."

Scotty, you seem to be under the impression that I care about clarifying things to you. I only do that for those whose opinion matters to me. And you are certainly not among them.

Also, if I clarify my position you might get all pissy again, and I don't want Jason to have to deal with it. Interacting with you for the sake of anything other than amusement is more trouble than you're worth.

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Scotty Roberts link
3/30/2015 12:30:55 am

It hardly matters, anyway, EP, as you operate under an hypocrisy.

You insist people be brought to task for things they write (or draw, in this case), but you do not believe you should be held to any sort of accountability, yourself, for your words.

You also operate under a false assumption: I couldn't care less about what you think or what you clarify. I simply think it is worthy of noting that while you decry others for being "despicable" human beings, your own actions and manners cast you in no better light.

You can act as cavalierly as you like, because there is no accountability. So, your caterwauls fall flat. Anyone can be a piss-monger from the sidelines.

And as I have said before, your words lack the power of conviction it takes to be accountable for what you say. When you have stupid things to say about my artwork or use of anthropomorphized characters in a book, its void of any substance. But it sure is fun publicly calling you on your ridiculousness.

And the reality of it is, you CAN’T explain yourself, you CAN’T clarify your point, because there isn’t an explanation or clarification that can be made. You are simply playing a game, and since no one holds you accountable, you continue to do it.

That, all in itself, makes me question your intelligence and your decency as a human being. It is generally said that the things you do in private are the true test of your character - it isn’t a stretch to extend that into anonymity, where you don't have to be afraid of anyone attaching your name to your words and actions.

And I find it very telling that there are people here who will vehemently state what they think about a theory, hypothesis, notion or idea that they think is scientifically or intellectually irresponsible, but they give indecency a pass, and allow you get away with it.

It will be a wonderful day when your real name is exposed. Not for any untoward reason, but because it will be interesting to see how your words will change when a little accountability comes into play. If you would act any differently, then that is the true gage of what kind of person you are, now. So, guard your anonymity close, EP.

As for the topic of anthropomorphization of characters in children books, your comments have never been anything other than attempts at insult, which makes you a fairly shallow human being.

Again, nice punt.

Reply
Hypatia
3/30/2015 04:01:38 am

Scotty, if you cannot edit down your personal attacks to one sentence, please refrain.

Reply
Scotty Roberts link
3/30/2015 04:10:35 am

Hypatia,
Who am I "attacking?"

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Scotty Roberts link
3/30/2015 04:12:43 am

And Hypatia, is it safe to assume that you want the "one sentence" rule to apply to EVERYONE who posts here? Look above...

Reply
EP
3/30/2015 06:28:14 am

Hypatia, I've edited my response to Scotty's personal attacks down to zero sentences. Am I doing good? :)

Reply
Scotty Roberts link
3/30/2015 06:55:45 am

Outstanding, EP.

Reply
BP
3/30/2015 09:39:32 am

I read a book about Crespi in the late 70s early 80s. It was this badly produced thing that looked like it a photocopy. The pictures in it were equally bad. I loved the fact that many of his artifacts were things like cogs and other misc industrial junk. Funny to see this crazy from the past raise its head again.

Reply
Karl link
12/9/2015 10:03:05 am

Another Father Crespi item making the social media rounds:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-P69_kiFlEjE/Vg4jGxtWQnI/AAAAAAAAFPU/CdpxuvFcNE0/w2048-h1536/image.jpg

Reply
J. Lyon Layden
3/5/2016 12:10:31 pm

Well, good job providing clarification on this story, there is very little other than the fringe sites.
However, you quote James Randi, who SAYS that he visited before Donniken in 1980, AFTER he had already heard about the plunger.
James Randi is a known liar. Rupert Sheldrake and others have proven that he will lie and falsify in order to prove his point.
He is a sensationalist with a contest that is legally worded in such a way that even if psychic powers were real, the contest could not be won.
Quoting him is every bit as irresponsible as quoting Van Danniken, since they are both known con artists.
Now, the interesting thing is that some of thise stuff was actually real, according to your research.
We need to know if the statue of the priest with big ears, artificial cranial deformation, and South East Asian ceremonial clothes is one of the real ones or not. If so, Stephen Oppenheimer would probably like to know about it.

Reply
James
4/17/2016 01:06:25 am

Thanks for the info. I came across Fr. Crespi in James Rollins' new novel Bone Labyrinth and immediately thought the collection was a hoax. There is very little legitimate information about him, with outlandish theories stating that he was Hitler, or linking the collection with ancient aliens or antediluvian civilizations and whatnot. Glad this article set the record straight: the collection is a complete hoax.

Reply
best toilet posture link
12/3/2017 09:21:03 am

The squatty potty is a stool that is designed to fit around the front of a standard toiletbowl, providing lift to your legs and resulting in a squatting-type position rather than sitting position ...... I want to buy one just to say thank you for making the most awesome ice cream pooping unicorn commercial of all time!!

Reply
steve
11/24/2018 01:49:43 am

revisa esto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRPcJCGN5ac

Reply

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