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Fringe Festival Founder Claims Bronze Age Was Paradise of Peace and Harmony

7/28/2014

84 Comments

 
I keep trying to understand why people think crystals contain magic powers that can make rocks float, but I just can’t wrap my head around it. I understand that crystals, under considerable compression (mechanical stress), will generate piezoelectricity, but how does this translate into “crystal technology” that can shoot tractor beams that make rocks weightless? As I understand it from the 1985 book Crystal Power by Michael Gary Smith, this involves using crystals to focus “mental and emotional powers” and relates somehow to the lost technology of Atlantis, which we all know did not exist before Frederick S. Oliver invented it in Dweller on Two Planets (1894/1905). This is just one reason I was confused by Eternal Knowledge Festival founder Lucy Wyatt’s piece on Graham Hancock’s website from earlier this month in which she agrees with the power of crystals but seems to think it gives us magical mental powers rather than physical ones. Keeping it all straight is just too hard.
Wyatt claims that the Bronze Age has much to teach humans of the modern age, and she goes on to “prove” this somewhat reasonable idea with a hodgepodge of unrelated claims that fundamentally misunderstand history, reflect a romantic idea of ancient people living in harmony with nature, and include claims about spiritual dimensions to reality. Specifically, she is writing in support of her festival, which will discuss “ancient technology, Egypt and the stone of destiny, psychedelics and pharaohs, Medieval heresies, C17th Rosicrucianism, Carl Jung and hermeticism, concepts of the state ancient and modern, Tarot and the Hermetica, and sacred geometry.”

I’m frankly a little disconcerted that every fringe piece and gathering recently seems to draw on a hundred different fringe claims and presuppose knowledge of and acceptance of all of them. Doesn’t anyone stick to one topic anymore?

Wyatt begins her piece with a hippie New Age paean to the ancient harmony humans supposedly had with the earth, a claim more typically associated with Native peoples than with Bronze Age cities: “From agriculture to architecture, metaphysics to physics, harmony and healing, the Bronze Age ancients knew how to address the needs of the city dweller and still have with (sic) respect for the Earth and the natural world.” Yes, the festering hives of poverty and disease, where sewage ran through the streets and the skies were thick with the smoke of burnt offerings, were environmental paradises! The needs of the city dweller, as I understand it, apparently involved human sacrifice, slavery, and brutal punishments. It was the best of times, though, because there wasn’t any plastic, just good old-fashioned lead. But, seriously, scholars have discussed the environmental degradation caused by Bronze Age settlements, and this material should be easily available for Wyatt to read should she remove her rose-colored spectacles.

“Thanks to the Bronze Age, we began to move away from our hunter gatherer way of living,” Wyatt writes, apparently in ignorance of the existence of the Neolithic Revolution and its development of the single most important factor in the move away from hunter-gatherer lifestyles—agriculture. That said, I fail to understand why someone who wishes to live in harmony with the earth would see the end of the hunter-gatherer age as a positive, since hunter-gatherers have the least environmental impact of any human society.

The reason, of course, is that she belongs to the ancient mysteries school of history, which idolizes the religious writings of the first civilizations and therefore sees those civilizations as perforce possessed of particular sanctity by dint of having possessed this wisdom. This wisdom she sees as an understanding of the vibrations (yes, vibrations) that rule the universe. According to Wyatt—and based on no sources I can discover—ancient Egyptian women told stories of a Golden Age 65,000 years ago when women ruled with wisdom and compassion through vibrations.
This was a matriarchal civilization that revered the strength and wisdom of the “mother”– who they related to the creation energy of all that is. Everything is vibration; everything exists in waveform—the sin wave. [Note: I hope she means sine wave.] It is the Neter, Hathor (primordial mother energy) that gives this sin wave the spark of “life” through Sound! This is why so many cultures revere the serpent energy which is the basis for all that exists in our three dimensional reality including our very own DNA.
Here Wyatt seems to disagree with the famed ancient astronaut theorist Erich von Däniken. While he did write in Twilight of the Gods (2012) that all of reality was the result of “vibrations” of the “Great Cosmic Intelligence,” von Däniken was pretty sure that ancient times were dominated by men and male aliens who used “the females” as objects. Wyatt in fact even declares that humans, not aliens, were the gods of old! She accidentally repeats Euhemerus (Eusebius, Praeparatio Evangelica 2.45; Plutarch, Moralia 5.26.23; etc.) without having any idea who Euhemerus was or why his idea that the Greek gods were ancient human kings wasn’t right in 300 BCE and isn’t right in 2014.

But her faith in human ingenuity (which, I guess, is refreshing for a fringe figure) lets her assume that the Egyptians had “crystal technology” that harnessed “natural subtle forces” like sound to affect our consciousness—to what end she doesn’t say. Was this meant to be the mysterious technique she believes was used to build the pyramids of Egypt? It isn’t clear, but she is certain that copper, stone, and wood couldn’t be used to cut or move stone blocks.

She then breaks off into a seemingly unrelated discussion of the troubadours of medieval France, the Knights Templar, and the Cathars. She praises the Cathars for resisting Catholic conformity, and she says that the “civilising effects on medieval Western European society of the music, poetry and arts and crafts in this area in the High Middle Ages is legendary.” What does that mean? How did troubadours, singing raunchy songs of sex and satire, civilize France? What precisely was different about Gothic architecture that changed human nature in a way that Romanesque did not? Exactly how were the butchers of the Fourth Crusade (1202-1204) different than those of the First (1096-1099)?

In praising the Rosicrucians, Wyatt offers this howler: “After the Middle Ages, it was not until the Renaissance that ideas began to change and fed into the great movements of the C17th that produced geniuses like Sir Isaac Newton.” And what, pray tell, came between the end of the Middle Ages on October 12, 1492 and the start of the Renaissance the next morning? I kid, of course: The Middle Ages gradually faded into the Renaissance over the course of the fourteenth to sixteenth centuries; there wasn’t a hard and fast dividing line.

So what is the reason for revising history to celebrate the Bronze Age and the High Middle Ages? It’s to create a fictional past where humans supposedly lived in small communities, connected by faith, free from bureaucracy, and in harmony with the earth. Or, as Wyatt puts it:
If anything, it can lead us to a different way of viewing the modern state. The news media depends upon war and conflict almost as much as do politicians and the arms industry. Sadly, we have come to see organized strife as a natural part of being human – as something traditional and inevitable. But suppose that our natural tendency is to cooperate and live with each other in a state of peace and harmony, unburdened by state bureaucracy, its military establishment and the cost of their support? We have done it, we can do it, and today more than ever before we have the tools with which to effectively govern ourselves from the bottom up.
Because if there is anything that the Bronze Age and the Middle Ages were known for, it’s peace, harmony, and cooperation.

Anyway, this is a pretty clear case of a fringe figure trying to recreate the past to justify a New Age vision of the present.
84 Comments
Gregor
7/28/2014 04:28:47 am

>> "ancient Egyptian women told stories of a Golden Age 65,000 years ago when women ruled with wisdom and compassion through vibrations."

In the sequel she'll explain how certain "devices" were contrived by the wicked and deviant Men - indeed, even given an obscene phallic shape! - to control the wise and harmonious Women through those same "vibrations", plunging us into an unending cycle of strife and hunger and base carnal pleasures! CAN'T YOU SEE?! ITS ALL PART OF THE CONSPIRACY TO SUPPORT THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX VIA THE ENERGIZER BUNNY!!

As for why every fringe theory seems to draw on every other fringe theory... I'd have to guess its a matter of becoming a self-contained system. If one person says something, it's bullshit... but if *10* people say it... it's gotta be true! They're just trying to open up your mind, man! There's just so much "evidence" of everything!

As for why crystals, why "super mind powers", why any of it... I'd wager it's some bizarre amalgamation of the "New Age" movement and the literary fantasy genre. Then you get books, magazines, movies, video games that all feed right back into the source, reinforcing this idea that ancient Egypt or ancient Greece were these beautiful, pristine, idyllic sanctuaries of beauty, love and wisdom... instead of turbulent, even rancorous throngs of humanity. You know, not much different than today.

It can be fun (in a schadenfreude kind of way) seeing the abject horror in someone's face the first time they find out that those truly beautiful Greek sculptures of the gods were not serene moments immortalized in marble, rather brightly (or gaudily) painted icons set beside rotting bull corpses.

Frankly, what I think I would find most surprising is if this all turned out to be a matter of laziness. Why struggle and labor to create a better world for all mankind when you can just sit on your ass and lament how good things used to be (but never actually were).

Reply
Shane Sullivan
7/28/2014 08:06:20 am

Years ago, one of my mother's friends made a joke about a victorian era, coal-powered vibrator.

The phrase, "keep shoveling, I'm almost there!" was thrown around a lot after that.

Reply
Gregor
7/28/2014 11:48:29 am

Chugga-chugga... chugga-chugga...

PaulN. link
7/28/2014 09:54:09 am

Are you saying that the original Mr. Buzzies were powered by piezoelectrical current generated from crystals!!? And that the crystals were controlled by mind power!!?
Oh noes!!! That gives new meaning to min blowing. :P

Reply
Gregor
7/28/2014 11:49:36 am

<from an undisclosed relic circa 69,000 years ago> "Matriarch's Creed: Everything is legitimate, nothing is ridiculous"

EP
7/28/2014 03:10:23 pm

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

666
7/28/2014 10:20:42 am

>>>>As for why crystals, why "super mind powers"

"Danburite provides strength during turbulent times. It activates mental powers and encourages spiritual growth"

Scott Cunningham, Cunningham's Encyclopedia of Crystal, Gem & Metal Magic (1988)

Reply
Clint Knapp
7/28/2014 06:35:25 am

Hunter gatherers are bad because killing animals isn't harmony with nature, man! We're supposed to sit down and meditate with them and give them hugs. Even the toothy ones.

If you know you're Creationism, and I know you do, then you understand the true state of nature is peace and veganism. Even for the dinosaurs.

It's disturbing if you think about it too much. It requires a certain kind of obliviousness to not recognize the brutality of nature and what returning to it actually means.

As to the whole crystal thing; it'd be nice if everyone who believed in the magic/technological prowess of crystals (and for that matter, which varieties?) just got together and tried to prove it instead of blathering on about it. At least then we wouldn't have to hear from them all the time.

Reply
Gregor
7/28/2014 06:50:36 am

They've tried "proving" it every now and then... sometimes you end up with ridiculous things like Kirlian photography, other times you just get a gaggle of New Agers ranting about how our "science" doesn't "get it" because we're "not opening ourselves up to it".

Not sure one can expect much when there's folks like William Henry ranting about "Star Energy" as if its something other than radiation released via nuclear fusion.

Reply
666
7/28/2014 09:59:32 am

>>>sometimes you end up with ridiculous things like Kirlian photography

The Fringe Community and Religious Fundamentalists share a common belief in the Turin Shroud.

666
7/28/2014 09:48:19 am

>>>If you know you're Creationism

If you know your Creationism

Reply
Mandalore
7/28/2014 06:50:15 am

"But suppose that our natural tendency is to cooperate and live with each other in a state of peace and harmony. . ."

Even a cursory glance at any period or location in human history shows that warfare and conflict are fundamental aspects of human life. The Bronze Age was certainly full of constant warfare, despite their apparent crystal technology.

Reply
Shane Sullivan
7/28/2014 08:01:06 am

And it was hardly "unburdened by state bureaucracy".

Also, check this out:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1266108/

"The earliest conclusive archaeological evidence for attacks on settlements is a Nubian cemetery (site 117) near the present-day town of Jebel Sahaba in the Sudan dated at 12,000-14,000 B.P."

... A stone's throw from Wyatt's beloved Egypt!

Reply
666
7/28/2014 10:13:43 am

>>>warfare and conflict are fundamental aspects of human life

The history of the Papacy

Reply
Gregor
7/28/2014 11:52:32 am

... and virtually every other sufficiently developed human organization / civilization, regardless of religious particularities.

666
7/28/2014 12:10:16 pm

But the Papacy was allegedly pacifist

An Over-Educated Grunt
7/28/2014 12:16:46 pm

Funny how you never mention, say, the Ikko monks in Japan, or the division of the world by the Caliphate into the Faithful and all who must be converted, by the sword if need be, or how the Shaolin Temple was demolished because it was perceived as a military threat, or how the US government's "Department of Defense" has waged more overseas wars than the "War Department" ever did, or how the Delphic oracle actively profited off of every conflict in its sphere by promising both sides victory in vague ways.

Careful, your neutrality's showing again.

Gregor
7/28/2014 12:28:37 pm

@"666"

The fundamental nature (real or perceived) of the Church (and it's leader, the Pope) has varied wildly over the course of it's ~2,000 year history. Many today see the Catholic faith (and its leader) as emblematic of peace and goodwill, but even a cursory review of European history reveals a Church that raised its own armies, lorded over the Papal States, and actively contested "secular" rulers. You know, "not pacifist". Your claims are so broadly painted as to be inaccurate and inflammatory. I suppose that might be your intent, but granting you the benefit of the doubt... you'd be well served to give more thought to your claims (and stop trying to redirect to Christianity / religiosity).

@Over-Educated Grunt

Good points.

Only Me
7/28/2014 05:44:45 pm

"you'd be well served to give more thought to your claims"

You ask too much, Gregor. His own words clearly express his attitude:

"I cannot accept your 'summary' because I do not accept your standards. People holding different standards hold different conclusions."

"I read the texts myself. I study the history myself. I arrive at my own conclusions without any need from scholarship."

"It's not 'me' that's wrong"

Don't bother trying to debate him. Grunt has already proven 666 is distinctly lacking in that skill.

Paul Cargile
7/29/2014 02:43:52 am

And wars were fought over crystals when the wives (and other assorted influentual woman) of tribal leaders noticed and complained that the tribe down the river had more beautiful and sparkly crystals than their own, and demanded something be down about it. The men, not wanting to be cut off from a desirable source of pleasure, begrudgingly sharpened their blades and set out for conquest. Got to make momma happy. Always.

Reply
Pacal
7/28/2014 07:58:58 am

The Bronze Age was a period of time in which people lived in harmony without bureaucracy - really! I mean really!!

Obviously this person does not have even the most cursory knowledge of Bronze Age societies. The records of Egypt, to say nothing of the Cuneiform tablets of places like Mari and Ebla reveal in detail just how bureaucratic such societies were! To say nothing of the Linear B tablets found at places like Pylos in Greece. Bronze age societies were hierarchical, rigid and very bureaucratic. Once again fringe thinkers show they don't do even the most basic research.

Reply
Not the Comte de Saint Germain
7/28/2014 08:36:11 am

Well, Wyatt is reviving a very old tradition of nostalgia for the Bronze Age, seen most famously in the first work the "Western" literary tradition. But according to that work, the Bronze Age was a better time because men were stronger and better at slaughtering each other in hand-to-hand combat. One need only read the Iliad to see how far "Western" culture has gone from its origins, and how brutal those origins were. Aside from the scene with Priam in Achilles' tent, most of the poem feels profoundly at odds with modern values.

Reply
Pacal
7/28/2014 10:22:01 am

I agree that Homer's Iliad and Odyssey are nostalgic. But they are nostalgic for an heroic age that never really existed for real. Homer places certain archaic features in his Heroic world, such as Bronze, (Although iron creeps in in places.) However over all the social and political world of the poems is not by a long shot the world of the Mycenaeans. We have in the Linear B tablets a inside look of the actual bureaucratic social nature of the Mycenaean world and it is not the Heroic gift giving society of the Poems. In terms of social reality if the poems reflect a real society at all it is the "Heroic" society of the late Greek Dark Ages. What Homer seems to have done is to project Heroic values back to the very dimly remembered Mycenaean period where they largely didn't exist. The reason is seems to be is that the Greeks of his day could understand the "Heroic" values emphasized in the poems. The actual social mores, and social practice of the Mycenaean palace culture would have struck them as largely incomprehensible. I also rather doubt that the Greeks of Homer's time had much information concerning the Mycenaean age to begin with.

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
7/28/2014 10:37:59 am

Then Wyatt has accomplished quite a feat by having an even less realistic picture of the Bronze Age.

EP
7/28/2014 12:18:10 pm

Indeed. And she even managed to do it without bringing in aliens.

Joseph Craven
7/28/2014 09:07:07 am

She seems to be drawing at least partially from the same well as several of my high school teachers from way back when. They were very fond of pushing an idea of ancient matriarchies around the world that were inherently peaceful and harmonious due to their reverence of the woman, until they were overthrown by men.

Reply
EP
7/28/2014 11:01:16 am

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. (It reminded me of some of my high school teachers, I mean.)

All of it is a dumbed down version of the "Goddess movement" from the 1970s, which is itself a dumbed down version of some ideas found in Robert Graves (and others).

Reply
666
7/28/2014 11:15:43 am

Triple Goddess, phases of the moon, wisdom in darkness - all very close to something very famous and recognisable on a daily basis

Steve in SoDak
7/28/2014 12:21:20 pm

If the world were run by the women I know, there would be no outright war, just petty backstabbing, rumor mills running non-stop and endless drama over things that are invented in order to have something to complain about. the thought makes me cringe.

Reply
EP
7/28/2014 12:28:58 pm

"I’m frankly a little disconcerted that every fringe piece and gathering recently seems to draw on a hundred different fringe claims and presuppose knowledge of and acceptance of all of them. Doesn’t anyone stick to one topic anymore?"

Diversification, man. The same reason we have Virgin Records and Virgin Airlines.

Also, not sure why you'd say they "presuppose knowledge" of what they're talking about. All they presuppose is reflectory responsiveness to "alternative" buzzwords.

Reply
Gregor
7/28/2014 12:37:17 pm

And Virgin Mobile!... and isn't he trying to fund a "Space Taxi" now?

As for presupposition, I think(?) he was remarking on the fact that despite, say, being a "UFOlogist" you'll see one make arguments based on "Crystal Energy" or "Blood Magic" or "WooWoo of Woo". That is, they speak with the confidence of one who is equally well versed in all possible topics, no matter how tangential or newly-formed. I suppose the implied counter-example would be Academia, wherein you typically see both specialization and division of labor (i.e. architects design, engineers build, etc.)

Your point is valid, too... Nick Redfern comes to mind most prominently. I'm not sure I've ever seen that guy say "no" to anything (at least not while on TV).

Reply
EP
7/28/2014 01:16:45 pm

I think Jason was talking about the fringe writers' presupposition that their audience has knowledge of all the various fringe topics. I guess if by knowledge Jason means awareness (as opposed to any relevant learning), it does make sense. (Though even awareness need not go beyond unconcious association, which is the point I was trying to make.)

This isn't being nitpicky, by the way. Fringe works *require* their audience to possess minimal knowledge. This is one of the reasons why they are so opposed to proper inquiry and why they are so dangerous.

Jason Colavito link
7/28/2014 01:51:24 pm

Yes, I meant only that it supposes, for example, that someone interested in Atlantis would also be aware of crystal mysticism and the Templar mysteries. There seems to be a sort of assumption that someone interested in fringe ideas is interested in a wide variety of fringe topics.

EP
7/28/2014 02:20:12 pm

Doesn't even have to be that... Oftentimes it's just desire to be all things to all people.

I mean, a quack doctor advertising a panacea isn't looking for people with multiple coincident health problems, only people with miltiple kinds of health problems...

And why are you ignoring exploding alien pregnancies?! :)

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
7/28/2014 02:46:59 pm

The fringe theorist communities on separate subjects have been coalescing into one for a long time now. You've studied a lot of the steps in the process yourself, Jason, like The Morning of the Magicians, which (correct me if I'm wrong) was the first book to throw a lot of traditional esotericism and conspiracy theory in the same pot with ancient astronauts.

If I may be forgiven for bringing up Foucault's Pendulum again, I think it's a useful example. Eco, writing in 1989, satirized nearly every element of what you might call "classical" conspiracy theory (Templars, Rosicrucians, Freemasons, Kabbalah, Atlantis) but left out the elements of New Age thinking that originated more recently than Theosophy. Aliens and UFOs are also conspicuous by their absence. That might partly be because of Eco's location in continental Europe, where I think those themes are, or used to be, less visible than in the US. It could also be because Eco is more familiar with European history than with these late 20th-century strains of wackiness. But still, I don't think New Age and UFOlogical thought was as integral to conspiracy theory in the eighties as it is now. During the 1990s, there was an upsurge in both fringe archaeology and UFOlogy, and I suspect a lot of the fringe theory cross-exchange took place then.

In fact, the fringe communities have so much in common nowadays that I've probably thought of them as too monolithic. In my comments on the blog entry about the Las Vegas shootings, I mentioned how surprised I was at the presence of fringe ideas in Christian apocalypticism. Just a few years ago, I regarded this fringe stuff as a primarily New Age phenomenon, because I'd mostly seen it in a New Age context.

EP
7/28/2014 02:57:44 pm

New Age and related nonsense were pretty integral to the leftist fringe since at least the 1960s. Many of the most prominent names in the Black Power movement, for example, held views much like those regularly discussed by Jason. Ditto for some of the wackier communist groups in Latin America. And the connection between the present article and the feminist Goddess movement has already been mentioned.

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
7/28/2014 03:09:12 pm

Interesting. The connection between the hippie left and the New Age is obvious, but I'm not sure what you're talking about with Black Panthers (Afrocentrism?), much less Latin American Communists. Can you elaborate? (This history-of-dumb-ideas stuff is the most interesting part of the blog for me.)

EP
7/28/2014 03:16:13 pm

Black Power, etc.: Elijah Mohammad, Louis Farrakhan, William Karenga, the "Black Athena" guy... These are just off the top of my head.

Communists: I had in mind primarily J. Posadas. Though depending on whether you count Eduard Limonov's National Bolshevism as communism (you probably shouldn't), he's a good example as well.

Gregor
7/28/2014 03:51:43 pm

@EP

I'm not even sure that this can be answered (or that it even matters in the long run), but is there evidence of these things being genuinely held beliefs amongst such groups, or is more a matter of "whatever makes the white man / capitalist pig-dog look bad"?

Probably just a quirk of mine, but I always end up trying to make a distinction between those who *really* believe this insane junk, and those who simply adopt it out of convenience / shared interests.

EP
7/28/2014 03:58:17 pm

The two are not mutually exclusive. Just because Himmler was into some weird shit, doesn't mean he didn't also think it makes for great propaganda. Same goes for these people. I can't think of anyone I have a reason to think is a thoroughgoing liar.

Uncle Ron
7/28/2014 01:26:46 pm

"...Everything is vibration; everything exists in waveform"

"...every fringe piece and gathering recently seems to draw on a hundred different fringe claims"


She really is just using her brane. Her beliefs seem to be based on string theory and it ties everything together.








Reply
EP
7/28/2014 01:33:22 pm

Please tell us more about how string theory "ties everything together". Also, what it has to do with fictional Egyptian matriarchical cults from tens of thousands of years ago or with how Bronze Age was a time of peace and harmony.

Reply
Walt
7/28/2014 02:27:35 pm

I think that was a metaphysics joke. Made me laugh, anyway.

EP
7/28/2014 02:31:10 pm

I confess that reading "using her brane" did make me disinclined to be charitable... :)

Walt
7/28/2014 02:43:04 pm

Yeah, I laughed at the second sentence, then had to backtrack and look up "brane" since I figured it wasn't a mistake. Can't imagine why there aren't more metaphysics jokes.

An Over-Educated Grunt
7/28/2014 02:47:25 pm

It's a series of puns.

EP
7/28/2014 02:48:26 pm

Not sure why you keep calling it a metaphysics rather than physics, though...

Walt
7/28/2014 03:01:34 pm

That's just how I've always heard String Theory defined since there are no testable predictions. It can't be called physics without that. I see now there's no consensus. There are reasons it isn't either phsics or metaphysics.

EP
7/28/2014 03:07:49 pm

Well... physicists (including those who think it's stupid and false) tend to think it's physics...

And of course there are testable predictions! I didn't realize that anyone seriously took issue with that!

Walt
7/28/2014 03:22:19 pm

If there are testable predictions, then it's physics. But there seems to be a lot of hope that there may be in the future, which is why it shouldn't be called metaphysics, but there are none right now, which is why it isn't physics.

EP
7/28/2014 03:37:34 pm

No, there totally are testable predictions right now! I don't want to go into it too much, but the only sense it could be said to not be testable is the same as that in which some parts of Newton's phsyics weren't testable when Newton wrote his Principia.

There are some serious conceptual and methodological problems with "brane" theories, but unless you want to claim that Principia wasn't physics at the time of Newton but became physics later, they aren't problems of testability.

Gregor
7/28/2014 03:45:53 pm

@OverEducatedGrunt

Agreed, though I'm not 100% on "brane".

@Walt

I agree that "string theory to tie it all together" is a joke (and not a bad one at that), but you're trying to create a false dichotomy. Theoretical Physics (of which String *Theory* is a part) is still Physics, just as every other previously theoretical component was at some point. Either use of "metaphysics" (either the inane New Ager sense, or the Philosophical "structure of reality" / "mind vs. body" sense) is disingenuous.

Gregor
7/28/2014 03:47:30 pm

Also, what EP said.

Walt
7/28/2014 04:07:08 pm

It's not me deciding what to call it on my own, or deciding on my own if there are testable predictions.

The first page of results from google all give the impression that there's complete consensus among those who believe and those who don't, that no testable predictions have ever been found, at least through January of 2014. And, in fact, finding a testable prediction seems to be the Holy Grail of string theory that everyone has been working towards, unsuccessfully, for 40+ years.

There were some headlines from just this year that they may have finally found a testable prediction (and "finally found" was used in the headline) but I didn't read the stories. Searching for "string theory testable predictions" yields results that all seem to agree that there are none, at least through Jan 2014.

Likewise, searching for whether to classify it as metaphysics or physics seems to return results with writings and discussions from physicists that indicate there's no consensus. In fact, I get the impression most prefer to classify it as just "mathematics".

You need to tell your colleagues that a consensus has been reached, then it'll trickle down to people like me.

EP
7/28/2014 04:15:45 pm

What part of the first page of results is popular journalism or other popular treatments? How reliable are such sources when it comes to properly using terms like "testable", etc.?

There are difficulties with designing tests that are both specifc enough and are within our technical capacity. This isn't the same as whether a theory is in principle subject to experimental corroboration or capable of delivering empirically testable predictions. I am not aware of anyone seriously worrying about that...

Again, there are things we take for granted that were beyond Newton's technological capacity. That doesn't make the relevant bits of his theories not be physics.

.
7/28/2014 04:22:34 pm

Ed Witten's particles are very very tiny.

EP is totally correct about the Natural

Philosophy behind String Theory.... it

was not until the return of Halley's comet

in 1758/59 that we see a Newtonian Apex.

Plato would not have made the mistake the

woman did, not unless you assume each age

is more sophisticated and violent than the last.

Stone to Gold to Copper to Bronze to Iron to Steel

sees larger social units and bloodier wars. There

is a Stone Age harmony that hunter/gatherers have...

this may be due to a lower population density per acre.

EP
7/28/2014 04:33:16 pm

You really need to remember to take your medication, man...

Walt
7/28/2014 04:38:11 pm

Well, I agree there's a consensus that it will hopefully be testable one day. But as I said, I get the impression from some physicists that they won't call it physics until there are results. Your disagreement is with them.

I'll just call it theoretical physics next time.

EP
7/28/2014 04:42:40 pm

There is a cottage industry of creationists arguing that Darwinian evolutionary theory isn't real science because it supposedly doesn't produce testable predictions... Just something to think about :)

Walt
7/28/2014 04:46:07 pm

Gregor, I didn't intend to be disingenuous by calling it metaphysics. That's just what I was taught in school, very briefly I might add. Some phycisists do seem to still call it that, perhaps mockingly, but the consensus seems to be that the term "metaphysics" is used for things that will never be testable, which doesn't accurately describe string theory.

Walt
7/28/2014 04:48:46 pm

Yes, I didn't read the Google results from the journalists but I did read all of them from physicists, and I got the distinct impression some are waiting anxiously for string theory to be declared bunk.

.
7/28/2014 04:49:59 pm

EP ---- i was defending your take on physics...

i also was told my long paragraphs are difficult.

if Ed Witten gets a postumous Nobel Prize a century

from now, and ceases to be the clever author of a

metaphysical construct equal to Descartes's universe

then this debate will have its resolution. Clearly a string

of "Ages" happened, Stone, Gold, Copper, Bronze, Iron

Steel and Internet, and of these, Stone, Gold + Internet

were more Matriarchal than Patriarchal Copper, Bronze,

Iron and Steel. The Neolithic Revolution did not totally

improve life for all humans on this planet as it arrives...

call this a Guns, Germs and Steel thesis idea writ large.

EP
7/28/2014 04:55:09 pm

Walt, for what it's worth that's where I thought you were coming from. But in the context of discussing New Age stuff it carries wrong connotations...

Many scientists do talk this way. This sense of metaphysics comes from positivist and empiricist philosophy of science that became dominant among scientists after WW2. However, even brilliant scientists are notorious for being sloppy when it comes to philosophical terminology. And when it's filtered through the popular media, the problem becomes even worse...

Walt
7/28/2014 05:06:22 pm

Ah, nope, I wasn't coming from anywhere in particular. I've just always heard string theory described as metaphysics. I don't even remember the teacher who introduced it, but I'm pretty sure I didn't even take a physics class, so she probably wasn't a physicist.

I've typed "physicists" so many times, I think my fingers have developed a lisp.

EP
7/28/2014 05:18:29 pm

Wanna talk about something else, then? :)

.
7/28/2014 05:20:51 pm

Ed Witten's ideas = perceptive scientific hypothesis

Everyone else on String Theory = Metaphysics

Aristotle's natural philosophy ideas = ancient "science"

Newton's ideas = an improvement on Aristotle

Descartes's ideas = very close to describing branes + vortexes

Robert Hooke = brilliant if Ed Witten is correct


Many of the 1980s String Theorists revamped Robert Hooke's
bold ideas of a Harmony of the Spheres when getting past
Roman violas like Nero's or today's guitars, fiddles + violins!

Walt
7/28/2014 05:25:36 pm

Heh, well, I think "." was trying to address your original question about matriarchical cults and the "peaceful" Bronze Age, all while agreeing with your physics, so that might be an interesting conversation for you to have. ;-)

I don't know anything about those topics, so I'll observe.

EP
7/28/2014 05:29:42 pm

Why the hell would anyone want to talk to "."?

Walt
7/28/2014 05:38:47 pm

I sort of grasp what he's getting at, especially the last one. Unfortunately, I think one has to know about the topics in his messages in advance, to understand what he's saying.

He at least got me to look up Harmony of the Spheres, but I lost interest before I got too far, or before I even saw how it relates to string theory if at all.

EP
7/28/2014 05:43:05 pm

Hint: It doesn't. No more than the Templars relate to the Masons :)

Walt
7/28/2014 05:49:32 pm

Scary. There must be a method to the madness.

.
7/28/2014 06:01:06 pm

http://www.musicofthespheres.org/Whatismots.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta19.htm

http://www.halexandria.org/dward118.htm

http://www.soulsofdistortion.nl/SODA_chapter6.html

http://www.classicpersuasion.org/pw/burnet/egp.htm?pleaseget=54

http://www.cocreatorsworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Living-In-Harmony-With-The-Spheres.pdf

http://alexwraggemorley.wordpress.com/2013/07/05/robert-hookes-snowflakes/

http://www.superprincipia.com/Gravitation%20Vortex%20Theory.pdf

http://motls.blogspot.com/2013/12/edward-witten-what-every-quantum.html

Walt
7/28/2014 06:16:09 pm

Thanks for those links. I've saved the list and plan to read most of them. A couple look really interesting to me, and if they make sense, I might read them all. So, thanks.

.
7/28/2014 05:34:05 pm

Uncle Ron's joke was indeed very droll in light of EP's discomfort...

Reply
.
7/28/2014 05:38:24 pm

The years in the Bronze Age when major wars did not happen
were a paradise of peace and harmony by comparison to the
lives lived by the people who were very near the front lines in
both WW1 and WW2. We are now almost at the century mark
of the outbreak of the GREAT WAR. Time indeed marches on.

Walt
7/28/2014 05:45:43 pm

Nah, Uncle Ron's joke was as clever as a physics joke about fringe topics can be. I drew EP's ire by referring to string theory as metaphysics.

EP
7/28/2014 05:52:00 pm

No ire. I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page :)

.
7/28/2014 06:23:52 pm

his joke could solicit a belly laugh out of a student on the M.I.T
campus if you are able to talk to enuff of today's students, even
though the joke is older than they are! its like a Jack Benny skit...
its brainier than Milton Berle's material, even if it was stolen from
Jack Benny! i had to agree the attractive "unproven" nature of
Ed Witten's physics had it glommed onto by "alternative sites...
i am trying to see if there are references to the school of physics
Newton's ideas displaced. the phrase "Harmony of the Spheres"
is very 1600s, it stems from the ratios of the orbits of the planets
and thoughts of the Golden Ratio. its ancient & often revitalized.

http://hermetic.com/godwin/kepler-and-kircher-on-the-harmony-of-the-spheres.html

http://vaczy.dk/htm/spheres.htm

Seriously, the people Jason writes his blogs about often take
science back to the 1500s + 1600s but if we apply the older
ideas to the big question mark concerning String Theory, we
see ideas like Descartes's votexes.

http://www.keplerstern.com/Music_of_spheres/music_of_spheres.html

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/kepler.html

http://descartes.cyberbrahma.com/vortex.html

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-physics/ <---enjoy!

http://basyevortex.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=76&Itemid=117

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/view-witten.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/sense-of-scale-string-theory.html

Walt
7/28/2014 06:44:53 pm

I understood everything you just said! :)

I'm surprised I haven't heard about this stuff before. I'm an amateur astronomer and very familiar with Kepler, but apparently not familiar enough.

I'm gonna have to read it all when I'm more awake, and digest it for a while. I'll check out all of those links, and I'm actually looking forward to it!

Don't believe what people say about you, you're not so bad. ;-) The single-spaced paragraphs helps a lot, and not assuming everybody understands how you're connecting different things also helps. They still may not agree, but at least they'll understand what you're saying.

.
7/28/2014 06:54:46 pm

"Music of the Spheres" is the alternative phrase but that
leads into Benjamin Franklin playing a vintage 1700s
harmonica so very fast. the two phrases are interchangable.
Hooke clearly read Kepler in translation. Newton had read
Descartes in translation before the age of 18 and had either
five or eight years of formal schooling before arriving at Trinity
in Cambridge. His Arianism is legendary in light of his degree.

Paul Cargile
7/29/2014 02:49:26 am

Clever. lol

Reply
EP
7/28/2014 03:27:30 pm

"I keep trying to understand why people think crystals contain magic powers that can make rocks float, but I just can’t wrap my head around it."

This is a good question, actually. I don't know the genealogy of this stuff all that well... There seem to be several components to it. Piezoelectricity was all the rage right around the same time "psychical research" was really taking off. At the same time, people were getting into crystal balls, which Blavatsky goes on about. She seems to tie some ideas from alchemy (where crystal balls and crystals more generally were prominent) with South Asian "energy" mysticism.

Once we associate the divining powers of crystals with sensitivity to auras, etc., then the natural next step (if you're anything like Theosophists) is to turn the powers of crystals toward influencing the auras, etc.

Not sure whether and how the long tradition of attributing different magical properties to different minerals ties into all that...

Reply
Only Me
7/28/2014 06:43:51 pm

Natural progression?

Water was once believed to be a natural barrier to spirits, so the preferred method of escape was to cross a river. Salt was also used as a barrier to ward off things that "go bump in the night". Jade was once used for the mouthpieces of opium pipes, because of the belief that breathing through it would bestow longevity; the Maori believed objects made from jade possessed their own mana.

Of course, you also have the New Age belief in the healing and metaphysical properties of silver, so it seems that crystals are just another addition to the tradition of assigning magical properties to elements.

Reply
EP
7/30/2014 02:36:36 pm

Natural, given Theosophy's worldview and values.


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    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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