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Fringe History and the Survival of Esoteric Nazism

4/30/2014

106 Comments

 
Today I’d like to talk about a subject that makes a lot of people uncomfortable but which is important for understanding the development of fringe history. That subject is esoteric Nazism. This is not a moot point or a weird sidelight to fringe history; instead, it is central to the development of many of its claims. Fringe figures such as Frank Joseph and Jacques de Mahieu have been explicitly affiliated with Nazism and have incorporated Nazi racial ideas into their work. Others, like the late fringe theorist Miguel Serrano, have adopted esoteric Nazism as a belief system and incorporate Aryan racial theories into their promotion of fringe history. Serrano even started a religion, Esoteric Hitlerism, to promote his belief that inter-dimensional beings and Nazis were the path to salvation.
Today, fringe figures claim amazing things for Hitler: that he had a special relationship with supernatural forces or aliens, that he possessed the Ark of the Covenant, that he possessed the magic spear that pierced Christ’s side (that one was sort of true—though the spear was a medieval fake), that he presided over wizardry that included space flight and time travel, and that he had found the Holy Grail or was the Antichrist. One could easily be forgiven for thinking that fringe historians see Hitler as a sort of demigod since they attribute to him the range of powers and connections more typically associated with figures like Perseus, Siegfried, or Samson.

After World War II Hitler had indeed become a mythic figure, and it is rather shocking how easily Hitler slid into the template set by Charlemagne and Frederick Barbarossa—not to mention Odin and King Arthur—of the Sleeping King, the widespread European myth of the great leader who is not dead but waiting in a mountain or a faraway island to rise again and save his nation. Within months of Hitler’s suicide, many had started to claim that like Arthur to Avalon, he had not died but had been transported by ship (submarine) to a magical island (South America or Antarctica) where he would live on, regroup, and someday return.

This primal sin of Nazism is deeply embedded in the DNA of fringe history because it was present at the creation. The modern fringe history movement takes much of its shape and form from Jacques Bergier’s and Louis Pauwels’s Morning of the Magicians (1960), which launched the ancient astronaut theory and revived interest in lost civilizations like Atlantis. It was, of course, not the first fringe history book, but as the most widely cited and the one most closely tied to the postmodern, counterculture worldview that became associated with the fringe community, it bequeathed more than its share of claims to the fringe history world.

When I have talked of the book, I usually discuss its ancient astronaut and lost civilization claims, but the authors devoted about a third of the book to exploring esoteric Nazism. The two authors did more than almost anyone to make Hitler into sort of a Faustian demigod; indeed, much of their book is very obviously a reflection of the trauma of World War II and an attempt to find a supernatural explanation for that war’s devastation. In fact, they attribute the war to an invisible struggle between unseen gods.

They begin by likening the collapse of the Third Reich to the Twilight of the Gods in Norse myth, “Whoever has … known also the Twilight of the Gods of the Third Reich, can imagine what the end of Cordoba and Granada was like, and a thousand other ends of the world since time began,” referencing also the collapse of the Inca, the Toltec, and the Maya before immediately relating all these civilizations to “white men” who came from a vanished world.

Although the two authors take pains to call Hitler “satanic” they nonetheless say that he had special access to “Superior Beings” who had announced the creation of a master race. These beings, they implied, were aliens—and Hitler had met them in person. They see the Nazis in religious terms, speaking of their powerful “sacraments of evil,” equal and opposite to religion’s sacraments of good; and they see Hitler as almost, though not quite the Antichrist, Nazism as an offshoot of Satanism:
The problem must be faced. We will never be safe from Nazism, or rather from certain manifestations of the Satanic spirit, which, through the Nazis, cast its dark shadow over the world, until we have roused ourselves to a true awareness of the most fantastic aspects of the Hitlerean adventure. (p. 133)
I can’t stress this enough: The authors propose a Manichaean worldview of equal and opposite extremes, whereby evil is as direct and powerful a path to knowledge as good.

They link the Nazis to Atlantis, to the vril of the Theosophists, to Theosophy itself, to the hollow earth and its inhabitants. They ask why only the forces of evil study such subjects and why it is that the powers of good do not also appropriate the occult and the invisible history of the world to further their ends. To readers, this is all but an invitation to see in Hitler and esoteric Nazism a path toward spiritual enlightenment. They introduce into evidence all of the claims made for Atlantis and the Watchers and the giants, and they note that official science rejects such claims while noting—though with apparent condemnation—that Hitler said that there was a different science that rejects the “Jewish-Liberal science” of the mainstream. They seem to reject this claim, but the whole of their book—its hundreds of pages—is designed to prove that this secret science really exists.

They place the homeland of the race of Aryan giants from Atlantis at Tiahuanaco, which they claim is “hundreds of thousands” of years old, had survived the Great Flood, and depicted Ice Age megafauna in its art. They cite these claims to Nazi-era German archaeologists, and these claims appear almost point for point in Graham Hancock’s Fingerprints of the Gods, although filtered through the work of Arthur Posnansky, and they present as apparently worthy of research Hans Hörbiger’s “World Ice Theory,” beloved of esoteric Nazis.

The authors accuse the Western powers of suppressing Hitler’s connection to a lost civilization and a secret science, “to save countless million souls from being corrupted.” In a difficult passage to read, the authors claim that the Second World War was a battle between “the humanist or the magical” view of the world, and they seem more than a little upset that Hitler’s magical world collapsed in the face of a materialism. Their whole book celebrates the concept of “fantastic realism,” and it is impossible not to read this as the authors’ disappointment that Hitler failed to perfectly embody the pre-scientific, pagan world of gods and monsters—the world, they said, built not for man but for “something more than Man.” They mourn that the U.S. and U.S.S.R. are indistinguishable in their secular aims.

At length, the two authors liken Hitler to Hermes Trismegistus, and the parallel is strikingly accurate, not due to mystical knowledge on Hitler’s part but due to how fringe historians relate to the figures. In 400 CE, Zosimus of Panoplis wrote in his Imouth (preserved in Syncellus, Chronicle 14) that Hermes had received instruction from the Watchers and had passed their knowledge of alchemy on in his books on the subject. For medieval alchemists, the pagan, antediluvian Hermes is nevertheless seen as a sage who can bequeath wisdom Christians can use, if only they are able to properly apply the demonic knowledge for good ends. Similarly, fringe historians seems to view Hitler as a conduit to the mystical knowledge of the universe that can be made safe for the public if filtered correctly through fringe historians’ pens.

The two authors did not really mean to support Nazism; indeed, the thrust of this section of the book is that the same foundation of historical and scientific claims could produce both the (supposedly) rational West, the communist East, and the mystical Nazis—and that ideological worldviews make it impossible to truly understand those from other points of view. But the mournful tone and the suggestion that the magical is a valid way of investigating the world leaves less critical readers with the impression that esoteric Nazism provides a unique path to ancient wisdom and communion with the alien gods.

These ideas did not stop with Pauwels and Bergier but instead have become embedded in fringe history. How many times has Ancient Aliens tried to connect Nazis to ancient aliens, Atlantis, and UFOs? But let’s be more direct. The Raëlians, who took so much from Morning of the Magicians and its ancient astronaut literary successors, are trying to rehabilitate the swastika and return it to its ancient (well, Theosophical) meaning before Hitler, when it was a symbol of the divine, a mystical connection that runs through fringe literature and esoteric Nazism alike.

Take a look at the graphic below. It’s the original logo for John R. Ward’s Sirius Project, launched in 2011 to explore ancient symbolism and promoted by Scotty Roberts, a close associate of Ward. (Ward claims an honorary Ph.D. from a British Knights Templar club and presents himself under the title Dr.) I obtained this graphic from the Internet Wayback Machine. Look at the ring around the center icon. What do you see? Those symbols are probably familiar to readers with a knowledge of esoteric Nazism.
Picture
They are the six inset symbols in the ring worn by SS officers.
Picture
That’s not me imposing a reading on Ward’s logo. The symbols are identical and do not appear all together anywhere else except in SS symbolism. Ward has since changed the logo, and today it no longer features SS symbolism. According to sources familiar with the situation, Ward claims that the graphic designer added the symbols without his knowledge.

You will of course recall that Ward's close associate Roberts advocated the “dual bloodline” theory that held that both Adam and the serpent impregnated Eve and that therefore certain races were inherently more human than others. While Roberts used this only to suggest a hidden extraterrestrial race, the dual bloodline theory has historically been connected to anti-Semitic efforts to cast the Jews as inhuman. Rudolf Steiner used the same claim to argue for whites as the superior race.

Michael Barkun noted in his Culture of Conspiracy (2006/2013) that after World War II, when Hitler’s Holocaust had rendered explicit anti-Semitism unsupportable, the tropes of Nazi-era anti-Jewish propaganda slid seamlessly into the growing UFO subculture, largely absorbed from right wing political extremism. Most famously, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were reinterpreted as an Illuminati or extraterrestrial document. But he also points to a fascinating correlation between the postwar “good” aliens, the Nordics, and Aryans and the postwar “bad” aliens, the Greys, and the Jews. The latter were short, gnome-like, misshapen—all stereotypes associated with Jews:
Even among authors clearly hostile to Nazis and anti-Semitism, Nordics and Aryans are well-meaning and benign, while gnomelike, dwarfish Grays are a mortal threat.  […] Even among writers who most unambiguously reject anti-Semitism, the alien racial types disquietingly appear to reproduce old stereotypes. The evil Grays are dwarfish with grotesque features—not unlike stereotypes of the short, swarthy, hook-nosed Jews of European anti-Semitic folklore. They are contrasted to the tall, virtuous Nordics or Aryans. Although there is little to suggest that those who employ such terms do so to make direct parallels to earthbound categories, the images seem clearly to be refracted versions of older racial anti-Semitism.
Needless to say, the Aryans are also the heroes of lost civilization narratives like those of Atlantis, Lemuria, and Mu, although they gained their white heroes from an earlier generation of racism.

However, don’t expect coherence in ufology: Hitler was supposedly in league with the evil aliens, even though the evil aliens weren’t Aryans.

In sum, it seems that fringe history wants to treat Nazis the way the Greeks treated the Titans or medieval sorcerers the demons: creatures to be called up, bound by magic words, and then employed to gain special access to esoteric wisdom and the supernatural. In so doing, the fringe historian feels he can control the evil and use it to bring about a revelation, just as Zosimus thought he could use the evil wisdom of the Fallen Angels to bring about alchemical enlightenment.

106 Comments
KIF
4/30/2014 06:52:19 am

Sure, esoteric Nazis existed - Lanz von Liebenfels was one. Stephen Edred Flowers and others have written books on the subject matter. Pierre Plantard was a Gallic Nazi. Nazis lifted the Lemuria and Atlantis myths as part of their enforcement of the Chosen Race.

Still doesn't make romantic believers in Atlantis Nazis.

Reply
Only Me
4/30/2014 09:26:55 am

"Still doesn't make romantic believers in Atlantis Nazis."

How are you making this connection? Where, in the article, does Jason imply that this is true?

If he wrote an article about the history of the Volkswagon Beetle, including Hitler's approval of its production, are you going to say Jason is implying anyone who ever owned a Beetle was a Nazi? Are you really that dense?

What part of the last paragraph (indeed the whole article) did you not comprehend?

Reply
KIF
4/30/2014 10:13:10 am

Erich Von Daniken is not a Nazi
He does not want to start The Third Reich

Matt Mc
4/30/2014 10:14:26 am

Where in this article is Von Daniken mentioned?

KIF
4/30/2014 12:01:30 pm

There were peddlers of Atlantis during the 1930s who were not Racists, not Nazis. They were Romantic believers in piffle. It's impossible to call them anything else but fantasists. The same thing applies to Erich Von Daniken - he's just a fantasist peddler of piffle, not a racist. There is a distinction between fantasists and Nazis/Racists

Matt Mc
4/30/2014 01:14:32 pm

you did not answer the question where was Von Daniken mentioned in the above article?

Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/30/2014 05:00:14 pm

For the record … As far as I know … Scott Wolter has never driven, owned, or endorsed a "Volks' Wagen" ...

Only Me
4/30/2014 05:09:11 pm

Maybe he was too interested in the Toyota Scion.

.
5/2/2014 08:49:20 am

http://www.thecryptocrew.com/2014/05/bigfoot-cuddly-creature-vs-murderous.html

Varika
4/30/2014 11:18:32 am

Kif, the whole point is that these people are picking up some of the worst parts of Naziism and propagating it uncritically, DESPITE not being Nazis, and that this is a problem that is dismissed because "They're not trying to start the next Reich." Sorry, that doesn't wash. Nobody alive today has ever owned an African-American slave, but that doesn't mean that there's no racism going on. The last Inquisition was in the 1820s, but that doesn't mean there's no religious oppression going on. You can be not part of a bad group and still do massive harm using some of their doctrines.

It's not that there's a problem with looking into this stuff, even. Hell, *I* think Atlantis is massively cool. But I don't just spew out old racist beliefs about it without bothering to think about them.

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KIF
4/30/2014 12:05:09 pm

It depends who's peddling the fantasies. If it's fantasists that are peddling the fantasies which involve non-existent races then they are deluded cranks. If it's racists and Nazis who claim that they are the Master Race - THE REALITY - then that is a distinction and there is no comparison.

(jad)
4/30/2014 02:03:22 pm

in 1968 LERRR GRANDE CHARLES didst step down as the
cobblestones of the Paris streets flew about in the air as they
once did during the FRONDE of the mid-1600s. I feel DeGaulle
had handled ALGERIA as best as he could and that he had
every reason to ask poor Quebec to liberate itself or even slam
into LBJ hard over SEATO and IndoChina, French politics has
its moments. I admit long after LOUIE in the movie Casablanca
kicking the wastebasket with bottled Vichy water in it, about
2/3rds of the time I'd worry about an extreme Nazi group on the
right gaining control of our mass media & nearly everything else
and only 1/3rd of the tyme would i worry on an AGITPROP "org"
having a happy "stalinoid" likewise. i tended to rule out all else!

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Givi Alaznis’Pireli link
11/18/2015 09:06:22 am

Mr. Adolf Hitler believed that so caled "Heavenly Jerusalem" lies under territory of Republic of Georgia. Please, read an excerpt from my book by this link:

http://ways.org/en/europe/2010/dec/21/why_are_clashing_russia_and_usa

Best wishes, author and
publisher of newspaper "Noe",
esoteric writer Givi Alaznis’Pireli
from Republic of Georgia

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KIF
4/30/2014 07:02:44 am

Esoteric Nazism spawned throughout Europe during the 1920s and the 1930s. Let's not distance this from the mainstream anti-Semitism that existed in society and that this was a major part of the origin

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Not the Comte de Saint Germain
4/30/2014 07:32:11 am

"…it seems that fringe history wants to treat Nazis the way the Greeks treated the Titans or medieval sorcerers the demons: creatures to be called up, bound by magic words, and then employed to gain special access to esoteric wisdom and the supernatural."

Great insight—I've never quite thought of it that way. There are esoteric neo-Nazi groups, and esotericism is probably more prominent among neo-Nazis than among the original ones. (The Occult Roots of Nazism by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, despite its title, shows how few occult roots Nazism actually had. They were present, but far from central.) But a lot of the esoteric types who aren't Nazis still have a fascination with it.

I think it's worth noting that the fringe historians are far from alone in this fascination. Even 70 years after the fall of Berlin, Western culture still views Nazism with a sort of awe and loathing. Nazis are absurdly common villains in fiction for the same reason serial killers are: we see them as unambiguous evil. In addition, Nazi propaganda and the surreality of life under the Third Reich have given them a sort of mythic aura. Nazis are the devil we love to hate. Can you imagine a protracted revenge fantasy like Inglorious Basterds being made about some equally long-gone enemy, like Josef Stalin or Imperial Japan?

So if mainstream Western culture sees Nazis the way medieval people saw demons, the esotericists truly are like demonologists. A lot of them don't share Hitler's beliefs any more than the authors of grimoires worshiped Satan. But the esotericists' mystical bent leads them to believe they can draw on the "magic" of these 20th-century devils.

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KIF
4/30/2014 07:36:08 am

Romantic esotericists like Trevor Ravenscroft were not Nazis - they are only interested in the occult interest of the Nazis

Trevor Ravenscroft did not want to start the Fourth Reich (as far as I know)

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Not the Comte de Saint Germain
4/30/2014 07:45:43 am

That's my point; you don't have to be a Nazi to be enthralled by Nazis. You can loathe them and still be enthralled by them.

(jad)
4/30/2014 01:46:43 pm

true... ole winnie & frankie sorta fall into that category.
the BBC's new fictional series Bletchley PARQ and
or otherwise, you all know why they all liked Alan Turing's
very o.s.s ENIGMA machine code breaking. FISH is
Cold War era and contingent on Enigma's cogs + plugs
and wheels etc, the increasingly complex permutations.
Bletchley Park has modems & internet!ting & computers
being a British invention if you know who Tommy Flowers
is, as well as how slow John Luis Von Neumann is at
being quite a BRAINIAC. yes... Winston & Franklin had
their own private newspaper consisting of o.s.s day reports.

(jad)
4/30/2014 02:11:03 pm

luv... i liked the Tarantino DJANGO movie to the degree i try
to spell "django" correctly, and that way cool European guy
who was the bounty hunter co-star reminds me of the late
Claude Rains to the point i'd almost ask him to bio-pic the
late great actor. We know Nazis didst fuel Ww2's comic books
and that Tarantino just might be reading this blog and does
need more INGLORIOUS turf to film that is not HAYS OFFICE.

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Cargile
5/1/2014 04:11:57 am

Well now, if you can't portray fanatical Muslims as evil, you fall back to the safe territory of Nazis. Or fanatical Christians. Or corrupt CEOs.

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KIF
4/30/2014 07:38:20 am

Commentaries are fine but nothing can substitute reading the primary sources. To this very day, essential books by Guido Von List are still not available in English - "Die Armanenschaft der Ario-Germanen" (2 volumes, 1908, 1911), "Die Namen der Volkerstamme Germaniens und deren Deutung" (1909), "Die Religion der Ario-Germanen in ihrer Esoterik und Exoterik" (1910)

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KIF
4/30/2014 08:59:39 am

Guido Von List, "Die Ursprache der Ario-Germanen und ihre Mysteriensprache" (1914) is essential reading for the origin of what became The Third Reich

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An Over-Educated Grunt
4/30/2014 10:23:59 am

Funny, I'd think the 25 Points, "Mein Kampf," or any solid history of German economics between 1870 and 1929 would be more useful than German fringe thinking of the period. Or a watching of "Triumph of the Will." Or any of a large number of Great War memoirs, since it's that lost generation and those who would have been the conscript classes of the late 1910s and early 1920s who formed the Nazi Party. Or for that matter a smattering of Hugenberg's newspapers, or quite literally anything but pre-Great War German fringe thinking, which informed only a sliver of the whole Nazi experience.

KIF
4/30/2014 11:57:48 am

Needed something colourful to bolster "Mein Kampf"

KIF
4/30/2014 12:29:15 pm

From Hitler's Mein Kampf:

"All great cultures of the past perished only because the original creative race died out from blood poisoning...If we were to divide mankind into three groups, the founders of culture, the bearers of culture, the destroyers of culture, only the Aryan could be considered as the representative of the first goup."

Because Guido Von List has not been translated I paraphrase this comment about him: "List believed that a secret ancient Aryan priesthood had developed an ancient esoteric knowledge involving first-century German and Scandinavian runes".

Guido Von List was a follower of Madame Blavatsky. Here's another example of fantasist's esoteric ideas being lifted to develop and form Right-Wing Fascist ideologies.

Just because Guido Von List wanted to form a totalitarian state by turing fantasy claims into historical reality it does not follow that Blavatsky was the same type of person - she was simply a deluded crank and nothing else.

There is a distinction.

An Over-Educated Grunt
5/1/2014 01:22:28 am

It's one that was lost on the jurors of Socrates.

Scott David Hamilton
4/30/2014 10:09:18 am

Perhaps another example of the "grey" aliens being Jewish analogues: When Betty Hill first described the aliens she saw in her dreams, she said they had "Jimmy Durante" noses and wore clothes and caps. It was later, after hypnotherapy, that they changed into the big-headed, hairless fetuses/future people that would become popular in the 1970s.

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Tara Jordan link
4/30/2014 12:45:57 pm

On January 27 1945 Auschwitz was liberated,yet almost 70 years later,in 2014 Nazism remains the most recurrent theme in historical/political discourse.
This morbid fascination with Nazism & antisemitism borderlines fetishism of the worst kind.According to reputed scholars and historians,Staline was responsible for the death of (between)30 and 60 million.Can we switch from Hitler to Staline as the ultimate reference to evil?.Are we willing to spend the next 70 years debating & focusing on the atrocious nature of Stalinism?.

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(jad)
4/30/2014 01:17:19 pm

Luv... quality + quantity, Herr Hitler was often more creative
than dreary & bloody auld JOE STEAL and thugs. GOTO
LAVRENTY PAVLOVICH BERIA and U.S.S.R era Soviet
Encyclopedias. Like Pavlov he often was, so too was Stalin!
As why as KGB arrives from NKVD's ashes a gap is near
the Bering Sea and is herring-gutted from bindings? can we
"scape" a goat for wanderings over a Siberian Gulag landscape?
or is a Phoenix~like rebirth possible in modern tymes thusly?

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[jad]
4/30/2014 01:21:39 pm

also... Mao had his moments, and if you factor in for
incompetency, so did Chiang Kai-Shek, who was not
quite in the same league of the Triumvirate of Terror...
Formosa's wise tyrant is known for who he had butchered
as well as who eluded his net of informers + killers etc.
this sorta helps to sum up the bloodbath at mid-century.

(jad)
4/30/2014 01:29:14 pm

i lived thru OCT of 1962 as did we all. Uncle Nikita some 30 years
earlier helped to purge 200,ooo souls near KIEV but chose in short
order to have LAD IVAN's brief summer & winter & holiday camp
diary actually find SOVIET printer's ink. Y'all know author Alex had
defected later on, and his book, THE GULAG reads like William
Shirer's 3rd Reich one in that its very difficult to read in one sitting.
YES!!! lets remember the long Soviet years before and after the
death of Trotsky in Mexico city in 1940, and that curious treaty!!!

[jad]
4/30/2014 01:31:31 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/03/01/home/solz-gulag.html

An Over-Educated Grunt
5/1/2014 01:39:15 am

I've actually thought about that, and I think the difference comes down to the purposes of their destructive machinery. The gulag was, at least on the surface, an attempt to turn threatening elements into productive ones through labor. This isn't to spare it the criticism it roundly deserves; it was poorly conceived, run by sadists at its highest echelons, and punished compassion and competence equally as unfit for enemies of the State. However, it's different from the Nazi approach of intending prisoners to die, and only considering productive labor as an afterthought when it was realized that running a vast murder machine was expensive. That's the crucial difference, I think. The Stalinist machine offered at least the illusion that there was a way out on your own two feet. The Nazi machine was very clear that the only exit was through the crematorium.

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Tara Jordan link
5/1/2014 03:17:57 am

@Grunt
Let`s be honest,the reason for the fixation on German atrocities during 1933 & 1945 is "the Jewish question".Germans deported & butchered the vast majority of European Jews,but statically speaking,the holocaust is a detail in world war 2 history.I have a problem with the Jewish monopoly on suffering,because it undermines any other atrocities undertaken on a lesser,equal & even greater scale.

An Over-Educated Grunt
5/2/2014 02:11:27 am

Tara,

Sorry I didn't get this posted yesterday. It kept eating my reply, and since I've seen plenty of triple-posts here, thought I'd let it sit before re-drafting it, avoid being That Guy.

I see three reasons for the focus on Nazi war crimes, not limiting it to the Jews because if they're a majority of German camp victims, they're only a bare majority, and more Jews got away proportionally than, say, Gypsies. First is, as I said, the senseless bloody-mindedness of it: the Nazi program was to kill, and any labor obtained was incidental. The Stalinist program was the other way around. Stalin would just as happily kill all of them, but had the brainstorm in the late '20s that working prisoners to death was more effective than a simple bullet to the head. It's almost admirable in a waste-not, want-not way: if you view a large section of your population as disposable, why not use them to build your great public works?

The second reason is that Germany is a "Western" country. Germany is supposed to be civilized, it's where the great liberal revolution of 1848 was born, it's the birth-land of Goethe, Marx, and Nietzsche. For a nation whose neighbors can look at it and go "there but for the grace of God go I" to turn nationally insane is a puzzle that historians will probably never completely solve. In comparison, Russia is, at least on some level, viewed as half-civilized, backward. Under the Soviets it was even worse. After 1917, the country became a largely closed state, not all through its own choosing, because the Western nations turned their back on the revolutionaries as hard as they could and didn't really start opening up again until the 1930s. By that point, the Stalinist system had gelled, imposing that level of distrust and secrecy as a matter of policy.

Third has to do directly with that secrecy. Plenty of Western military units proudly claim to have entered Dachau or any of its subsidiary camps, or intercepted scarecrow columns on the roads, fleeing the Soviets. There was, and is, plenty of graphic evidence of Germany's killing policies during the period 1933-1945. They were in fact quite open about their policies during the '36 Olympics and the immediate post-Nuremberg Laws period, so it was easy in 1945 to build a line point by point through German persecution and extermination of a wide variety of undesirable minorities - NOT just the Jews. In comparison, no American units ever entered the Kolyma gold fields; no one ever stopped a column of diggers on the Belomor Canal. Those things happened in a far-off place to strangers who are decidedly not like us, and therefore are an abstraction to most of the West.

Anyway, my point after all this is that it's not just Jewish victimhood. Statistically, all European deaths between the Marco Polo Bridge Incident and V-J day, the true rough limits of World War 2, are a minority of all deaths. However, to the Western mind, a Western nation engaging in a frenzy of absolute national madness for twelve years is far more difficult to understand than strange, secretive Slavs stepping on each other's necks, or little yellow men raping entire cities to death. Of COURSE they do it, they're different from us. But the Germans?*

* Note that EVERYTHING in the last paragraph is for purposes of illustration, not personal belief. The fact that I'm referring to Nanking or the Kolyma fields means I know about them, and they're at least as horrifying, and they're due the same great efforts at national reconciliation as anything started by the Nuremberg trials.

Tara Jordan link
5/2/2014 04:20:31 am

@Grunt.
Thank you.I appreciate the feedback.
Very interesting indeed,the fact that you mentioned Nanking.What I am about to say to extremely controversial & politically incorrect,but I have a very "revisionist" approach to the Nanking incident.I think we should continue this debate (if you ever wish so?) off channel.This is Jason`s playground and the last thing I want to do,is hijacking the topic of the day.(you may reach me through my Facebook).

Also,your reference to "Germany a a "Western" country...supposed to be civilized, it's where the great liberal revolution of 1848 was born, it's the birth-land of Goethe, Marx, and Nietzsche.." is very close to Aimé Césaire`s own interpretation/explanation of "why and how".

Very over educated grunt,indeed ;)

Heidi link
5/1/2014 02:52:49 am

I will not dispute your facts Tara and there is much to be said for the anti Semitism that fueled Stalinism or at least how Stalin manipulated it to justify his ends and to delude the populace. Again, there is nothing wrong that I see with your angle or point of view but it raises questions of religious discourse when Anti Communism is mixed with Christianity as it so often is. This is still an issue with Nazism when you look at how they dealt with Christianity and defining paganism via Nazism serves a number of purposes and discourses common to both political science and religion. Nietzsche is but one example. Definitions matter and reveal as much as they conceal. I think there is a name for comparative religion or philosophy as distinct from theology but the engine of democracy has coopted both in the name of pluralism and this is part and parcel of the reasons science itself has a checkered history with religion. It's a convoluted issue.

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Tara Jordan link
5/1/2014 03:31:59 am

Heidi
Barely unknown to the general public,but Communism also had a deep occult & esoteric side.
Jason should do a paper on this topic

(jad)
4/30/2014 01:10:30 pm

if y'all remember WHY Berlin was so isolated in 1948/49
and WHY the Berlin Airlift came into being, when we look
at what Stalin knew in April/May of 1945 as Harry Truman
got the shock of his long life, there are ways "Herr Hister"
or HIS BODY could have gone places in a manner like OBL
and TORA BORA. I am not dumping on the people who as
good historians often try to rule things out. We know Stalin
clearly sent his toadies scurrying about as FDR was being
buried up in NY state on April 15th of 1945. Next April 12th
is the 70 year mark of the passing of a great president. I do
feel sorta sorry for the way poor HST did not wait for Japan's
surrender. I am young but feel I must apologize as an American
for those two cities. They, like poor Dresden, have been rebuilt.
The film "Schindler's List" gives us insights into the Nazi era.
There are 3 "Secrets of the Dead" episodes online on PBS...

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FastForward
4/30/2014 02:07:26 pm

Where exactly was all that Nazi esoteric thought supposed to lead?
Famed SF writer David Brin put some thought into that and ended up with the story "Thor Meets Captain America".
It's available here (legally):
http://will.tip.dhappy.org/blog/Compression%20Trees/.../book/by/David%20Brin/Thor%20Meets%20Captain%20America/David%20Brin%20-%20Thor%20Meets%20Captain%20America.html

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(jad)
4/30/2014 02:15:57 pm

yes... as did FDR... we call on Superman, Wonder Woman
and Captain America to save our youth from going over to
either the dark side or worse. our comics won us the war.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/30/2014 03:39:10 pm

OKAY … I see the pattern … !!!

Scott Wolter looks around … and sees a "hooked X" and/or "Freemasons and Templars" and/or "The Cross of Lorraine" …

While Jason Colavito … sees … "NAZIS" ...

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Judith Bennett
4/30/2014 04:14:38 pm

I'd guess you're more likely to see them than Jason is, Phil, given who your bff Scott Wolter likes to hang with.

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Gunn
4/30/2014 04:21:49 pm

The problem for me is that Wolter attributes the hook on the X to being representative of a Jesus bloodline. The poor Templars and Freemasons are today being burdened down with this nonsense, and it's not true to either history or God's Word. Even worse, for me, is the added disillusionment figured in for the KRS, which ultimately suffers from Wolter's fantasies and ultimate untruthfulness.

As a sort of self-appointed defender of the KRS, this is my main beef with Wolter...that he is creating a bad, false image for the KRS. Any side-tainting by Nazi issues is insignificant to me compared to these other spiritual matters, which strike raw nerves almost as bad as the Nazi dentist in "Marathon Man."

Warning: don't watch this if you have an upcoming dental appointment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP-Nlb549J8

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/30/2014 04:29:53 pm

LOL … IMHO, the ULTIMATE Torture-Dentist was played by Steve Martin (!!!) in the remake of "Little Shop of Horrors," starring Rick Moranis ...

Gunn
5/1/2014 04:45:22 am

Personally, because I enjoy humor so much, my favorite was Peter Sellers looking like Einstein, high on laughing gas, pulling a wrong tooth while his wax nose began melting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqYHb41OlSE

Only Me
4/30/2014 04:21:55 pm

Scott also sees hidden codes in Oreos, secret hand signs and conspiracies.

Everyone else sees a crappy TV show, staged shoots and reactions, crappy research, hoaxes, illogical conclusions and self-perpetuating pseudoscience from a guy who fears peer-review and can't handle criticism, while being unable to prove anything.

Move along, drama queen. The routine has become tiresome.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/30/2014 04:31:46 pm

LOL …
"
You will do as we say … !!! … We have WAYS of making you OBEY … !!!"

Only Me
4/30/2014 04:43:29 pm

Laugh all you want. You're the one who's spent the last two days defending your BFF from a false accusation of your own invention.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/30/2014 04:47:07 pm

LOL …

I'M not the fella who *sees* "NAZIS" hiding under or behind every rune stone ...

Only Me
4/30/2014 04:54:50 pm

Neither am I.

I'm also not the fella who sees innuendoes, insinuations implications or "bashing" behind every examination of someone's claims. Nor am I the fella who needs to create allegations or connections where none exist.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/30/2014 05:02:11 pm

BINGO … !!!

Innuendoes, implications, and guilt by association SHOULD have no place in these discussions ...

Only Me
4/30/2014 05:11:26 pm

Which is why none of those have occurred in any of Jason's articles. You and KIF are the only ones having trouble seeing that.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/30/2014 05:19:36 pm

LOL … (AGAIN !!!)

I'm not the guy who sees a neo-esoteric-"Nazi" lurking behind or under or around every rune stone ...

Only Me
4/30/2014 05:22:11 pm

But you are the guy running in circles like his foot is nailed to the floor. Stop running before you get vertigo!

Clint Knapp
5/1/2014 06:25:05 am

The differerence is that Scott Wolter makes up Templar/Bloodline conspiracies wherever he sees an X with a hook on it, while Jason read a book that explicitly cites Nazis.

You could read it yourself and see as much, but I suppose that would make arguing from a point of ignorance a little difficult.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/30/2014 05:31:28 pm

Lay OFF, okay, please … ???

Even as we "speak," Minnesota Wild and Colorado Avalanche are in Game 7, overtime, tied 4 to 4 …

*holding*breath*

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/30/2014 05:38:42 pm

Minnesota Wild WINS in overtime, 5 to 4 !!! (NO "Nazis" among them, either "neo-" OR "esoteric" …)

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Only Me
4/30/2014 06:53:04 pm

Congratulations, Minnesota Wild.

Now, using the logic of your arguments since the 26th, you said there were "NO 'Nazis' among them, either 'neo-' OR 'esoteric' ", to describe the Wild. According to your recent logic, you just insinuated that the remaining 29 teams in the NHL have players who are Nazis. Before you go on a tangent, think about the point I'm making.

Nothing about your comment supports my conclusion, which is exactly the point. Nothing about the text in Jason's articles support your allegations that he is implying Scott is a Nazi, white supremacist, pedophile or racist. There is no kangaroo court, no propaganda, no character assassination. Your trying to wring a hidden meaning from the articles that doesn't exist. You've been defending him from a phantom only you see.

We all know you are biased due to your friendship with Scott. That bias allows you to assume the worst whenever Jason writes an article that has Scott in it. This assumption is a form of prejudice, a label you are far too quick to slap on everyone else. It might help you to remember that Scott is human, capable of error or bad judgment the same as anyone. As long as he continues to badmouth everyone who doesn't accept his work at face value, as long as he claims to be a "scientist" without following the protocols science demands, as long as he keeps stating he has special insight or qualifications beyond his area of expertise, as long as he insists on remaining in the public eye, he will have to deal with others investigating and criticizing his work. That's the price of the celebrity he seeks.

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Not the Comte de Saint Germain
4/30/2014 07:19:25 pm

It's also worth noting that this particular article doesn't even have Wolter in it.

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(jad)
4/30/2014 08:19:51 pm

i think SW should run for public office...

the long vetting process flashes one's

life totally and completely in front of all...

Only Me
4/30/2014 08:25:21 pm

Why not? Minnesota already elected Jesse Ventura as governor. One more "celeb" wouldn't make a difference. Especially considering the fringe history/conspiracy theory element they both share.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/1/2014 04:51:55 am

LOL …

Because I KNOW Scott Wolter both as a personal friend and as a professional colleague for a LONG time (25+ years) … I am NOT "biased" … I am INFORMED … such that I REJECT gossipy innuendo and character assassination ...

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Matt Mc
5/1/2014 04:58:02 am

Sp passionately that you bring him up on a post that has not mentioned him at all.

If you are so worried about Wolter talk to him he is the one that works with and for well known Nazi leader and Pedophiles and bases his theories on ideas that have origins in eugenics.

Just sit back Phil and relax some, Your Love of Wolter is projecting him into arguments that he is not part of at all.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/1/2014 10:34:44 am

I just *wonder* about *somebody* -- ANYBODY -- who sees "Nazi" boogeymen … EVERYWHERE ...

Only Me
5/1/2014 11:26:22 am

I just *wonder* about *somebody* -- ANYBODY-- who sees "innuendo" and "character assassination"...EVERYWHERE

Jason Colavito link
5/1/2014 02:21:33 pm

First, Phil, this blog post never mentioned Scott Wolter. Second, I am getting sick of being told I'm involved in character assassination. Keep it up and I will be sorely tempted to start dipping into my file. People have sent me so much material on Scott Wolter that I could fill a book with the accusations and claims made about him, which I don't print because they aren't relevant to the discussion. But keep it up, and I'll start releasing documents. You won't like it. Some of these documents--public records--can be seen as very damaging, albeit not directly relevant to Templar Bloodline myths.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/1/2014 03:51:58 pm

Jason …

Thank you for confirming what already has been obvious to me … You ARE set on some kind of VENDETTA against Scott Wolter …

But be careful how far you take it … As It is Written, "Karma is a bitch …"

Only Me
5/1/2014 05:01:31 pm

And once again, Phil reads what he WANTS Jason's words to say, not what was actually written. Your disingenuousness and sanctimony know no bounds.

I guess "People have sent ME (my emphasis)" was simply beyond your comprehension...or, most likely, you're being purposefully obtuse. You desire what doesn't exist; a personal vendetta so you can be proven right.

You would do well to heed your own advice about taking things too far.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/1/2014 05:56:04 pm

LOL …

I don't keep *secret* files on anyone … I don't have ANYONE sending ME "documents" on other people …

I dunno ...

Only Me
5/1/2014 06:31:16 pm

You're right; you don't know.

Jason's files aren't secret, he already explained why he has them. But just like every one of the fringe mouthpieces Jason has written about, you have this obsession with personlizing every little thing, specifically, the effort to discredit your buddy, without acknowledging that he's doing a perfectly good job on his own.

I could ask you to stop, but I guess you're addicted to snipe hunting without ammunition.

Jason Colavito link
5/1/2014 11:34:57 pm

Only in Phil's world is the fact that I do not publish every allegation and document I receive a conspiracy to do the opposite.

Readers send me material on almost everyone I've ever written about. It goes with the territory of journalism, alongside the people who write to me with weird artifacts they want me to evaluate, the demons they feel are trying to communicate with them, and (of course) their angry condemnations of my work.

John
5/2/2014 03:31:27 am

Phil, You are not informed and you are biased. You should be curious what Jason has or what others have and maybe you would not reject so easily character criticism if you knew what you do not. You don't know the whole story, just what Scott wants you to relay to people. Kharma will come to Wolter. You look like a fool defending a "friend" when you don't know everything about your friend or even care to want to know everything.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/2/2014 03:50:31 pm

I don't gather or keep *secret* TRASH files on anybody … THREATENING to … TELL ALL … if a certain person doesn't STOP honorably rising to defend his friend and colleague …

But … no … if you don't KNOW Scott Wolter … then indeed, you DON'T know him … no mater how many trashy papers are *on*file* ...

Only Me
5/2/2014 05:50:26 pm

Thank heaven no one else is gathering and keeping "secret trashy files", either. You ever stop to think, maybe, just maybe, Jason keeps what people send him to cover his own ass? No, of course not, you're too engrossed in your one-man witch hunt.

You're being told to stop because your "honorable" defense of Scott has spilled over into a blog post THAT DIDN'T MENTION SCOTT WOLTER ONCE!

Not only are you purposefully twisting words, you've also been caught lying, to have a reason to continue being a contrary little bomb thrower. For someone who claims he isn't Scott's spokesman, you certainly are doing an excellent job playing propaganda minister.

Harry
5/1/2014 12:54:06 am

This is only an educated guess, but I suspect that there at least three different attitudes at work among fringe historians with respect to Nazism, esoteric or otherwise.

The first group, although some of them might agree that Nazism went too far, are attracted to Nazi ideas because they are, themselves, racialists. De Mahieu and Joseph are the most obvious examples.

The second group may have little regard for Nazism itself, they may even despise Nazism, but are willing to borrow ideas from Nazis when it gibes with their own ideas. Scott Wolter apparently falls into this group.

A third group, whatever their views toward Nazism itself, believe in supernatural forces and have heard that the Nazis also believed and pursued supernatural means of assistance. Therefore, they reason, the Nazis must have acquired esoteric objects and knowledge.

Finally, there is probably a group that fears Nazism so much that they refuse to believe that it would have taken hold on so many people without some kind of supernatural element assisting it to rise and flourish.

These groups may bleed into each other to some extent and they might borrow ideas from each other, wittingly or unwittingly, but, if I am correct, I think it is important to recognize the distinctions.

Reply
Gunn
5/1/2014 06:00:17 am

I like the way you broke this down, Harry. Here's something interesting I discovered the other day, which sort of feeds into your breakdown.

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Frank_Cohen

"...best known for a march in the Jewish suburb of Skokie, Illinois. He was defended in this legally by the ACLU at the U.S. Supreme Court, Cohen v. Skokie. The whole scheme was a hoax, meant to perpetuate a perception of Jewish victimhood, just as the Hollywood "Holocaust" package was really picking up...."

If true, just how this feeds into his reported hatred of his father, I don't know. but I suspect Frank was out to piss his father off. So maybe he would fall into the 2nd category, also. It may be that he also would fall into the first category as a racist, and then the last one, too, if he was into the occult.

Clearly, Scott Wolter is not in Frank's league, if there is one...which is meant to give Rev. Phil a bit of relief here. I see more harm in Wolter proposing that Jesus, as the Son of God, had physical intercourse with "that" woman--or whatever, and I simply don't like to see this injurious viewpoint (in my view) superimposed over the KRS, via the hooked X runic character.

As for any Nazi ideas that Wolter seems to be at least slightly tainted with here, rightly or wrongly, they have nothing to do with the KRS, as far as I can see. Wolter's Jesus bloodline ideology doesn't kick in any Nazi connections that I know of. I certainly hope not!

Because I do care deeply about truth in history, my main concern is the misrepresentation connecting Templars and the hooked X to a Jesus bloodline. To me, this is more mischievous--and foolish--than "accidentally" or otherwise associating Wolter with Naziism in connection with any of his other favorite subjects.

Zeroing in, if I may, my concern is about the non-professional, non-geology baggage he carries in a briefcase prominently and publicly labeled: "K R S"...baggage which in my opinion also extends to his land claim ideas, and to a few other ideas of lessor importance. In this case, I wish the situation would become more like the airlines, where lost baggage is commonplace.

I won't even get into the subject of PILFERING baggage...fringe history. This is Jason's area of expertise. He sees a modern-day pilfering of past Nazi ideology. In this computer-Goggle age, it seems obvious that fringe history figures need to be more mindful of the "truth," as tainting brushes can and sometimes do follow close behind. It comes with the territory.

Reply
Mike aka Titus
5/1/2014 02:17:04 am

Great post Jason. Yes the Nazi's have an almost uber quality in terms of pop culture/fringe science. The history channel at one point had old Adolf and his wacky lieutenants on all the time. Nazi and UFO shows seem to be on all those "science" and popular interest stations these days. How many times have I seen the "Nazi" bell on different programs despite there is no evidence at all it was a test program. I hate to use these words but it is an almost romantic obession. A horrible regime but "so far advanced." Like all stories has some elements of truth and most of it is bs.

Germany had good science/ engineering in WWII but it was hit and miss like all countries. Its supposed advanced air force was in fact a series of dead ends after the BF-109 in the late 30's. They never built large bombers and their fighters were obsolete or unreliable after 42. Their jets were mechanically unreliable and couldn't dog fight. Even their might panzers were a series of bad designs. The Tiger and Panther were too heavy and broke down all the time and could not be mass produced. Most of their troops used bolt action rifles versus the US which had semi and full automatic weapons to all troops. Yes they were ahead in terms of rockets but the "V" weapons were a waste of resources, they were not going to change the basic equation that Germany could not stand up to the allies in terms of manpower and industry. What they did have at least in the beginning was a very good officer and non com officer class. They were better trained like WW I and used combined arms much better than anyone else for a long time. Their air force was tactical in nature which proved the winning factor in their invasion of France in 1940. They did some interesting things in radar controlled bombs and very primitive IR night scopes but so did the US. And the US development in proximity fuses were a much more effective and had more impact on the battlefield. By the end of the war, the US had better equipment, fought combined arms better, and the troops were more effective.

Sure they had all sorts of crazy weapons on the drawing board, everyone did..

The Nazi's have come to be something else in fringe science...uberman...and the perfect suspect in all plots which drive the alien/atlantis/supernatural audience.

Reply
Clint Knapp
5/1/2014 06:52:13 am

Excellent rundown, Mike, and one that brings us naturally to another fringe-favorite: Operation Paperclip.

By way of this post European Victory effort to recruit German scientists, fringe authors transmute the alleged Nazi scientific supremacy directly into American superiority with Wernher von Braun and the V-series at the head of a technological renaissance in America made possible only through good Nazi science.

Indeed, there isn't a single alleged Nazi accomplishment that, through this transmutation process, doesn't become the basis for one "black project" or another. Even contact with those spindly scamps, the Greys, becomes a direct result in the fringe thinker's mind of our acquisition of some 1,800 German scientists.

Reply
[jad]
5/1/2014 11:58:49 am

PAPERCLIP = Securing W.Von Braun and his rocket designs

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/features/hunt-for-nazi-scientists/wernher-von-braun/101/

Under IKE it got added to. ULTRA is not MK-ULTRA even
though the "headers" are similar. Under FDR + O.S.S the
headers of files had a Jazz Era slang synchronicity to them,
but IKE's 'headers' were more random than Ex-Veep Harry's!
When we get past 'The Quiet American' in Saigon and enter
a John Le Carre "Tinker Tailor" landscape, just before we as
Americans became "UGLY" in a very Brando-like way, we see
very Nuclear Fail-Safe protocols being the Golden Standard.
This is well past WW2's PURPLE Pacific Codes, we are at
FISH as we play Cold War era poker with the Russians. I am
indirectly summing up why 1962's FailSafe pre-StrangeLove
codes sent the "W" during 9/11 up to Offutt AFB near our big
mutual border. its only ten years after a wall's fall before we
have to wage war on terror. Our empire was at its apex then...

Reply
Gunn
5/1/2014 04:12:01 pm

JAD, maybe you're imagining things. Maybe we didn't have to wage a war on terror. Maybe Granny could have kept her shoes on at the airport.

Quizzical Detail Man, have you ever wondered about the accidental (would quotation marks be in order?) death of OBL's older brother in Texas, of all places? Getting chummy with W. & Co. may have been a bad idea. I wonder if payback could have sneaked in through a "glitch" in the system (NSA not sharing information), ushering in unnecessary terror? "The horror...the horror." - Marlon Brando - Apocalypse Now

And now our country has gone from supposed pre-911 ineptitude to 1984 (the book), in multiple acts of governmental intrusion overkill: privacy has flown out the window. The slippery slope is obsolete. Get used to being tracked, my fellow Americans...my Stasi-worthy friends. Get ready to be intruded upon. Schools and police don't mind commonly getting their noses into your--or your child's--cell-phone these days, for instance. Major American companies are helping the government snoop more than ever, but not enough people seem to care. Maybe the Freemasons or the Jesuits are conspiring to help us?

Don't go wild, JAD.

Reply
[jad]
5/2/2014 09:05:55 am

http://www.thecryptocrew.com/2014/05/bigfoot-cuddly-creature-vs-murderous.html

http://www.american.edu/spa/pti/nsa-privacy-janus-2014.cfm
Are we the more aggressive Great Ape, always? HAYDEN was in
this recent debate. Good Q! we can claim "turff" often and our near
cousins the Neandertals were very much like us in many good ways.
http://www.dailypaul.com/318097/ultimate-nsa-debate-hayden-vs-greenwald-fri-may-2

"Quizzical Detail Man, have you ever wondered about the accidental (would quotation marks be in order?) death of OBL's older brother in Texas, of all places? Getting chummy with W. & Co. may have been a bad idea. I wonder if payback could have sneaked in through a "glitch" in the system (NSA not sharing information), ushering in unnecessary terror? "The horror...the horror." - Marlon Brando - Apocalypse Now " (Gunn)

Mark L
5/1/2014 08:56:01 pm

Seriously, Jason, just remove posting rights from the fake Rev. Every single article is him saying exactly the same thing, even when the article has nothing to do with his friend at all. It's incrediblt boring to read and just derails every single good conversation.

Let him complain to his friends about his freedom of speech being curtailed. Who cares? Your site only loses by his presence.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
5/1/2014 11:29:12 pm

I wish I could, but Weebly doesn't allow that level of control. My only choices are manual deletion or turning off all comments and approving them manually.

Reply
lurkster
5/2/2014 12:21:52 pm

Disqus could possibly help you with that.

.
5/2/2014 09:12:47 am

actually the good REV slightly and significantly
often does modify his remarks. for a while i had
thought SW in classic schizoid mode was lurking
here but then came to realize "THE REV" is very
real and open. sometimes this other poster poses
as him, so not all monikers have a cyber-dibbs lock
and key system that reserves them for only one set
of hands on a given keyboard or web~interface. in an
earlier incarnation i was made sport of by a comic in
a brown paper bag. i am an alan turing groupie & tru-fan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/24/world/europe/alan-turing-enigma-code-breaker-and-computer-pioneer-wins-royal-pardon.html?_r=0

Reply
.
5/2/2014 09:17:17 am

"Nearly 60 years after his death, Alan Turing, the British mathematician regarded as one of the central figures in the development of the computer, received a formal pardon from Queen Elizabeth II on Monday for his conviction in 1952 on charges of homosexuality, at the time a criminal offense in Britain."

NY~TIMES on DEC/24/13

AL GORE did not invent the internet--- A. Turing & T.Flowers did!!!!
5/2/2014 09:25:51 am

the modem, phone + Brainiac equivilency at Manchester U
has our DARPA~net being a British Import in a manner like
Beatles records in the 1960s. the internet is british, not yankee.

http://minttwist.org/2011/03/01/my-technology-hero-tommy-flowers-%E2%80%93-the-father-of-the-digital-age/

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/tommy_flowers.htm

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/2/2014 03:53:49 pm

But okay …

Thus far we have read earnest dire warnings about neo-"Nazis" and esoteric-"Nazis" …

Who will be next … ???

I suppose, perhaps, crypto-proto-"Nazis" … ???

Be AFRAID … !!! Be VERY afraid … !!!

Reply
Joe
5/2/2014 06:33:25 pm

In all seriousness, I wonder if you actual read any of the blog statements. It has been stated multiple times by Jason and by several of the regular contributors that NO ONE here believes that Wolter is a racist or Nazis. But you continually repeat your counter argument to an argument that has never been made. You continually claim to be the defender of Wolter's honor but no one here is trying to besmirch it. In the last couple of blog posts Jason is trying to show that there is a history of Nazis influence in the fringe history community. In fact your faithful friend is not even mentioned in this blog posting, however you felt it was necessary to include him. I am a regular reader of the site and find most of the information and discussion interesting. I have even tried to give you the benefit of the doubt in your quest to protect your friends interests. However the repetitive nature and totally misguided attempts are growing increasingly stale. As I have stated I am a regular reader and have in the past contributed to the discussion so I have viewed several of your comments and based on your history I have the following question.

What exactly is your point in these discussions?? You are constantly trying to defend Scott and in about 90% of the time he is not actually being attacked. I do admit that sometimes people do step over the line and in those moments your defense seems appropriate. However recently you seem to be missing the point of the articles and are creating arguments that are not being made. You are constantly down playing the quality of the show that your “friend and colleague” hosts. This does not seem particularly supportive of someone you hold in high regard. We all understand that the show is produced by others and that it might not always accurately reflect the personal views of Scott. But it seems that in most cases it does reflect his views. Especially when you take into account his own blog comments, articles and radio interviews. You are constantly asking us to state on the argument and not make it personal, however in this most recent post Scott is not even mentioned and most comments are on the topic until you decide to make your two cents and inject Scott into a discussion about Nazi influence. No one here included Scott into a discussion about Nazis, except YOU.

Finally the most interesting thing I find in your behavior is that you are constantly defending Scott's integrity but when we “stay on topic” you actually do not agree with several of Scott's ideas or opinions. Specifically in Scotts main argument about a holy bloodline you have stated before that you do not agree with him. So again I ask you what your main goal is. You are defending a man on arguments that no one is making. Do no agree with his main theories and injected his name into discussions about Nazis when it was not presented before. I know this is late and a bit of a rambling but the first time I actually had time to respond.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/3/2014 11:41:31 am

Well …

I am NOT the ONLY person to feel *uncomfortable* with the INDIRECT besmirching of Scott Wolter by INNUENDO ...

Reply
Matt Mc
5/3/2014 12:00:25 pm

Well Phi perhaps you should talk to you friend about the possibility that people may draw incorrect conclusion about a person when the choose to work for and with know Nazi leaders or write about ideas that have a lot of similarities to ideas that white supremacists write about. Maybe if Wolter separated himself for this person and made it clear on his show and his books that while his ideas share some stuff with pro white myths they in fact not connected and all. Then perhaps you would not be reading Wolter is a Nazi innuendo in things where he is not mention or not the topic of.

Just remember it was Wolter who choose to make that relationship and you choose to bring up a defense that Wolter is not a nazi when no accusation was made. You just need to relax your seeing Wolter Nazis when there are none.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/3/2014 01:16:43 pm

Well … again …

I am not the fella who sees neo-"Nazis" and esoteric-"Nazis" and proto-crypto-"Nazis" EVERYWHERE ...

Reply
Only Me
5/3/2014 01:30:22 pm

And again, you are violating the comment policy rule of "a single repetition of the same argument".

Jason Colavito link
5/3/2014 01:35:11 pm

Indeed, Phil is repetitive. Worse, he's also a propagandist who doesn't care to do the research. The best book on the subject is Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's "Black Sun" (NYU Press, 2003), which covers the survival of esoteric Nazism in modern extremist, fringe, and conspiracy literature in great depth, including in pseudo-archaeology and ufology. I am hardly alone in making these connections.

Worse, Phil doesn't notice or care that I did a multipart series two years ago about how fringe claims, particularly the ancient astronaut theory, received support and aid from the Soviets as part of an anti-Christian propaganda scheme. Yes, indeed, there's also a communist stratum to fringe ideas.

EP
5/9/2014 01:15:00 pm

Indeed. Your problem is more along the lines of not seeing them ANYWHERE.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/3/2014 02:28:17 pm

Whoa NELLY … !!!

So …
NOW it's neo-esoteric-crypto-proto-SOVIET-"Nazis" … ???

*whew*

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/3/2014 05:28:06 pm

(Where do the esoteric writings of H. P. Lovecraft come into this picture … ???)

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/5/2014 10:25:20 am

But, probably no need for worry …

LOTS of people are attracted to "esoteric" ideas and beliefs and sects and cults, and this has been so for a long time … but they're generally NOT of a "Nazi" stripe ...

In his very insight-full book, "The American Religion: The Emergence of the Post-Christian Nation," Harold Bloom (1992), identified "Gnosticism" (I think, correctly) as THE most popular American religious choice … IT is decidedly "esoteric," and folks LOVE it, and FLOCK to it …

It's a good read ...

Reply
Fr. Jack Ashcraft link
5/9/2014 09:08:30 am

I had my own dealings with Roberts over just this issue (among others), and was met with nonsense replies and doubling down on the fallacious claims and rather troublesome "theology". What I find amusing as well in this particular article is that Roberts, a self designated "theologian and historian", didn't even get his history right. The Nicene Council never once addressed the issue of the canon. So much for research. He could have found that information with just a simple Google search.

Reply
Scotty Roberts link
7/15/2014 07:26:42 pm

There you go again, Jack...

Reply
Scotty Roberts link
7/15/2014 07:22:36 pm

Jason,
I am curious where you get your information. I also wonder how invested you truly are in actually stating facts, as opposed to only that which makes something fit into your particular brand of bias.

I used to think your were a good researcher and intellect, despite not agreeing with you on many points. But when you abandon good research methods, and refuse to dialog with the people who are the objects of your derisive comments, you reveal a deep-set bias that is satisfied with only partial truths and basic facts - things you seem to decry in others.

As for some of the things you mention in this blog, I am fully aware of your singular source. And that source is so utterly biased, prejudicial, religiously bigoted and biblically abusive to other people that I am surprised you haven't spoken out against him and his actions. But, of course, you like the information he delivers, so you have no need to research any deeper.

Well done.

Reply
i agree...
3/7/2015 01:21:42 pm

the original humans who inspired all
B.C mythology are long dead & lack
PR people, so we can read into Zeus
and Jove what we please as moderns!

Reply
Givi Alaznis’Pireli link
11/18/2015 09:09:50 am

Best wishes, author and
publisher of newspaper "Noe",
esoteric writer Givi Alaznis’Pireli
from Republic of Georgia

Reply
KB Waters
12/11/2016 10:19:35 pm

What most people refuse to wrap their heads around is that esoteric Hitlerism is not the dark sinister and Satanic force that it is described as in Morning of the Magicians. At least not for all writers. It is indeed quite odd how many people just take things like the holocaust and satanism in nazi ranks as a given, rather than as residue from propaganda and fear of the unknown.

Reply
Givi Alaznis’Pireli link
12/12/2016 04:16:49 am

Here is what knew Adolf Hitler about real Jerusalem:

Why are clashing Russia and USA (revolution of religious thought of world):

http://ways.org/en/europe/2010/dec/21/why_are_clashing_russia_and_usa

Best wishes, author and
publisher of newspaper "Noe",
esoteric writer Givi Alaznis’Pireli
from Republic of Georgia

Reply

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      • Expedition Unknown Reviews
      • Legends of the Lost
      • Unexplained + Unexplored
      • Rob Riggle: Global Investigator
      • Ancient Apocalypse
    • Book Reviews
    • Galleries >
      • Bad Archaeology
      • Ancient Civilizations >
        • Ancient Egypt
        • Ancient Greece
        • Ancient Near East
        • Ancient Americas
      • Supernatural History
      • Book Image Galleries
    • Videos
    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
      • Secret History of Ancient Astronauts
      • Of Atlantis and Aliens
      • Aliens and Ancient Texts
      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
        • Robert Temple
        • Giorgio Tsoukalos
        • David Childress
      • Blunders in the Sky
      • The Case of the False Quotes
      • Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud
      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
      • Native American Discovery of Europe
      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
      • Lovecraft in Bergier
      • Lovecraft and Scientology
    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
      • Aliens and Anal Probes
      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
    • The Antediluvian Pyramid Myth
    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Eridu Genesis
          • Atrahasis Epic
          • Epic of Gilgamesh
          • Kutha Creation Legend
          • Babylonian Creation Myth
          • Descent of Ishtar
          • Resurrection of Marduk
          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Atlantis as Biblical History
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Atlantis and Nimrod
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and Hanno's Periplus
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
          • Amazing New Light (Hoax)
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • History of Paleontology
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • America Known to the Ancients
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Remarkable Discoveries Within the Sphinx (Hoax)
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • The Shaver Mystery >
          • Lovecraft and the Deros
          • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • CIA Search for the Ark of the Covenant
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • The Fall of the Sky
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Poltergeist UFOs
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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