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Fringe History's Frank Joseph Problem

4/29/2014

140 Comments

 
Fringe history has a Frank Joseph problem, and it seems like no one really wants to deal with it. The problem isn’t that Frank Joseph writes—prolifically—about fringe history topics, but rather that individuals, companies, and organizations involved in fringe history are intentionally omitting mention of his background and denying readers of his work the information they need to evaluate Joseph’s claims.
Joseph, formerly known as Frank Collin, became infamous in the 1970s as the leader of an American Nazi Party, in which capacity he was involved in the Supreme Court case National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie 432 U.S. 43 (1977), which established the right of Nazis to march and display swastika emblems. After his Jewish heritage came to light (his father was a Holocaust survivor), Collin at first denied the claims but remained head of the National Socialist Party of America until his arrest on child sex charges. Nevertheless, Joseph continues to promote a view of history that places a white master race in a position of prehistoric global domination and power, albeit now with Jews included among the white peoples who once ruled the Americas. Because this ancient white master race reflects a central tenet of his early Nazi beliefs, it would appear to be extremely relevant to understanding his ideas and point of view, at least as much as David Duke’s former position as a Grand Wizard in the Ku Klux Klan remains forever affixed to any discussion of his views on race and Jews.

Why is it different when Frank Joseph opines on how “white” people from Atlantis bequeathed civilization to the world’s black and brown peoples?

This is doubly strange since other fringe figures, now dead, who had connections to Nazi ideology are routinely described as such even in fringe literature. Otto Rahn went in search of the Holy Grail on the behest of his SS boss, Heinrich Himmler, and his books remain frequent touchstones for fringe Grail researchers; however, they have no trouble in describing Rahn as working for the Nazis. Jacques de Mahieu collaborated with the Nazis during the Second World War and spent the rest of his career attempting to prove that an Aryan master race once ruled over Native Americans. Even Scott F. Wolter felt the need to acknowledge this fact in From Akhenaten to the Founding Fathers (2013) when using Mahieu’s work in support of his own belief about white colonization of the Americas in pre-Columbian times, if only to dismiss it as “irrelevant”:
At this point, it is appropriate to put professor Mahieu, his Nazi past, and his research into proper perspective. A quick Internet search will find a brief synopsis of the man whose research is labeled multiple times as “racist.” Mahieu is an easy target given his Nazi background, but in this discussion his politics are irrelevant and unimportant.
And yet they were important enough to explicitly dismiss. So why is Frank Joseph exempted in fringe history literature from such acknowledgement?

In 2012, Frank Joseph published several articles by Scott Wolter in his anthology Lost Worlds of Ancient America (New Page Books), and in 2013 he published the same book again with a new publisher under the title Unlocking the Prehistory of America. That new publisher was the Rosen Publishing Group, a publisher of library books for children. At this point it becomes relevant, too, that Joseph was convicted of sexual assault on children.

I will pause to note here that since I first raised the issue of Frank Joseph’s work appearing under the Rosen Publishing Group imprint, his books have been removed from their online catalog. I had left messages with the company asking about the issue. These were never answered, but the removal of his books from their website suggests someone looked into the issue. I wish the company had the courage to issue an actual statement about their involvement with Frank Joseph rather than what seems to be an effort to try to erase their involvement by scrubbing it from the internet. A copy of Joseph’s Rosen Publishing volume can be viewed on Google Books.

But Rosen Publishing isn’t the first to have given a forum to Frank Joseph without acknowledging his controversial past. As soon as Frank Collin changed his name after his release from prison (Joseph is his middle name), fringe history—and even some mainstream publishers—embraced him and gave him a platform for his vision of a lost white master race as though his Nazi past were irrelevant to his use of claims from esoteric Nazism to support his racial hierarchy. He has also been published by ABC-CLIO, The Barnes Review, Bear & Company, FATE magazine, Hancock House Publishers, Helion & Company, and New Page Books. So far as I can tell, none has identified him in print as an ex-Neo-Nazi, even Helion & Company, which published his book on fascism, Mussolini’s War (2010)! Surely, if nowhere else, an author’s Nazi affiliation is relevant when writing about fascism. Mussolini’s War is no longer listed on Helion’s website. Did they discover his conflict of interest?

Heck, Joseph actually claims in Opening the Ark of the Covenant that the Nazis controlled the Ark (was there not a movie about that...?), and no one thought to mention that his Nazi affiliation might be relevant to evaluating his efforts to visit the Ark upon Hitler?


Other fringe figures who have published with or written for Frank Joseph include: Brad Steiger, Zecharia Sitchin, Laura Lee, Andrew Collins, Gunnar Thompson, David Childress, Cyclone Covey, and of course Joseph’s longtime colleague, the Mormon hyper-diffusionist Wayne May, who gave Joseph his influential perch as the editor of May’s Ancient American magazine, which still employs him as a staff correspondent.

Fringe figures returned the favor. Most famously, May has financed Joseph through Ancient American for decades. Brian Haughton invited Frank Joseph to write the forward for his Hidden History (2007). David Childress published some of Frank Joseph’s work in World Explorer magazine in the early 1990s, and he went on an “investigation” with Joseph, which he reported in Lost Cities of North and Central America (1993), all without mentioning his Nazi past, perhaps because he wasn’t aware of it at the time. Is it just a coincidence that right after this, when Childress started to get gigs on cable TV documentaries, suddenly Frank Joseph disappears from his work? He is entirely absent from Childress’s Lost Cities of Atlantis (1996), for example, a strange omission since Joseph, of course, was already then famous as an investigator of Atlantis. (His first book was Destruction of Atlantis in 1987.) In 1993 they were on a first-name basis and Childress was proud to have published his work on Phoenicians in Chicago. What changed?

Now let me make clear: Those who work with Frank Joseph have been very careful to let him promote his ideas without reference to his past. Here is how New Page Books gives his biography on the back cover of his anthology Lost Worlds of Ancient America, a book that posits repeated colonization of America by the superior forces of white Europeans:
Frank Joseph became the editor in chief (sic) of Ancient American magazine when it was founded in 1993. His 20 books, which have been published in various languages around the world, include… A frequent radio talk show guest, he has been interviewed by Shirley MacLaine, Art Bell, Jeff Rense, Rob McConnell, and numerous other broadcast hosts.
I guess we can add that list to the people who have given support to Joseph. But this is positively responsible compared to the way that the Barnes Review described him in his 2010 review of Scott Wolter’s collected works:
FRANK JOSEPH is a supporter of what has been called the hyper-diffusionist approach to prehistory. He was born in Chicago in 1944. His father, a Jew, spent time in the Dachau concentration camp. Joseph is the author of the books Atlantis and Other Lost Worlds and The Lost Civilization of Lemuria. He is also staff correspondent at Ancient American, a quarterly magazine investigating possible visits to our continent from the Old World before Columbus.
The Barnes Review is a publication of historical revisionism, including Holocaust denial (hence the wording in Joseph’s biography), founded and run by the Liberty Lobby, a group the Anti-Defamation League said was associated with organized anti-Semitism, until 2001, when Liberty Lobby went bankrupt. The Barnes Review continues on under the leadership of far-right race-theorist Willis Carto, a man who wrote that “It was the Jews and their lies that blinded the West as to what Germany was doing. Hitler’s defeat was the defeat of Europe and America.” He also wanted to send the Blacks back to Africa, according to news accounts, and he founded the far-right Populist Party—yes, the one that served as David Duke’s platform.

Carto’s greatest legacy is probably the Supreme Court’s decision in Anderson v. Liberty Lobby, Inc., 477 U.S. 242 (1986), which established guidelines for summary judgment to end frivolous lawsuits. The courts got sick of him trying to sue anyone who described the racial and anti-Semitic impact of his work in plain language.

Let’s make this clear: Involvement with the Barnes Review shows that Frank Joseph did not simply give up his old ideas. He continues to write for publications involved in what watch groups describe as anti-Semitism, scientific racism, and Holocaust denial, and he believes that those who support such beliefs are interested in lost white colonizers of ancient America like Scott Wolter’s Knights Templar. Joseph wrote his review of Wolter’s work in 2010, and Joseph reported that in 2011 he and Scott Wolter shared a pleasant car ride from Michigan to Wisconsin where they discussed fringe history. It’s perfectly possible that Wolter had no idea who Joseph was or what he had done, but he then let Joseph publish his work under Joseph’s imprimatur in 2012 and again in 2013 and has never spoken out against Joseph’s apparently still-current views. Neither has any other major fringe history figure, so far as I can tell. Why? What makes him so special?

Fringe history has a Frank Joseph problem, and the shocking list of fringe figures and “alternative” publishers who work with, support, employ, and finance Joseph need to account for this, especially since nearly every fringe figure postulates that it is mainstream scholars who have hidden motivations and occult connections to nefarious secret groups.

140 Comments
KIF
4/29/2014 04:26:44 am

There is no connection between the Frank Joseph Neo-Nazi and the Frank Joseph who writes about fringe history.

Just like there was no connection between Adolf Hitler the Nazi and Atlantis and Lewis Spence and Atlantis

Hitler was a politician who claimed the master race existed. Spence believed in a Fantasy Atlantis race

There is a distinction

Reply
Jason Colavito link
4/29/2014 04:30:22 am

What are you talking about? Frank Joseph and Frank Collin are the same person, so you can't very well claim he has a split-personality to the point that his beliefs are entirely compartmentalized.

Reply
KIF
4/29/2014 04:32:29 am

I am saying that the "master race" Frank Joseph is addressing today is fantasy that belongs to fringe history. Not to be confused with his activities of the past that belonged to politics.

There is a distinction.

KIF
4/29/2014 04:48:50 am

Guy W. Ballard, James Churchward and Lewis Spence were not Nazis. They were idealists who believed in a benign fantasy master race.

It's when extremist politics lifts these ideals and tries to turn them into practice involving malevolent totalitarian dictatorship that the term Nazi takes effect.

Nobody would say that today's churchgoer is an evil person, yet centuries ago the Bible was used to butcher Jews, heretics, witches and South American cultures

Jason Colavito link
4/29/2014 04:49:36 am

You're arguing for a distinction without a difference. "The Turner Diaries" was fiction, yet extremists embraced its argument as fact. The line separating fantasy from political action isn't as bright or clear as you want it to be. Atlantis, after all, began as Plato's political argument about the culture of Athens. Ideas have consequences, even if they are presented as fantasy.

J.A.D
4/29/2014 12:02:26 pm

Odds are, Plato for once was talking about something very real,
a diffusionist cultural influence from the start of the Neolithic
Revolution that explains the change from hunter/gatherer social
units to city-states all over Europe, Asia and Africa. A sea empire
that once had colonies, that existed before Egypt's early dynasties.
Solar years, not lunar months. A Great Flood? Hence Bible studies!

[jad]
4/29/2014 12:14:57 pm

i do agree with KIF in that Ballard, Churchward & Spence
are not Nazis, i see them as being very EuroCentric like
nearly all the hoary & wisely bearded Victorians. Our
presidency became more stewardship upon the election
of clean-shaven Bill McKinley in 1896, he inspired TR
and Woodrow Wilson, they in turn inspired FDR. We
need to "thought experiment" a sweep of history! Again,
William Warren was well educated but assumed a land
mass like Greenland was directly under our North Pole.
We have between 115 and 215 years of progress on all
the hoary&bearded Victorians in all legendary ivory towers.
KIF + "The Rev" have a point. Jason's point is that a felon
did ditch a prison record so as to become more respectable.
A jury of the man's peers weighed the facts at a trial. He is
most likely NOT the sad victim of a conspiratorial set-up vast.

(jad)
4/29/2014 12:19:44 pm

Hamilton, Madison and John Jay in tandem with FDR's
presidency are why we are reasonably free today but
Edmund Burke paves the way intellectually for the very
long reign of the U.K's Victoria. Burke dies as a Tory.
He writes early on like a good Whig ought to and does.

Byron DeLear link
4/29/2014 10:48:13 am

Nazism was born out of groups that promoted fringe occultist histories. Proto-Nazi groups like Thule, Ariosophists, and Theosophists concocted occult origin-stories about ancient master-races, Atlantis-like Lumurian tales and mythologies to elevate and edify the divine right of these groups' core power base. It is not overreaching to amplify Peter Joseph’s earlier incarnation as Nazi leader Peter Collin when discussing his hyper-diffusionist theories and alternate/fringe histories—self-serving mythologies were/are a central pillar of Nazism and their propagation helped galvanize the very real power-grab of Germany, Europe, etc.
Just because Peter Joseph may not be currently trying to usurp our political framework through a Nazi awakening like he may have as Nazi-leader Peter Collin, does not mean he isn’t trying to conduct a similiar “power grab” of mainstream history by promoting ancient white race theories and mythologies. The Nazi background, in this case, is key as to character and animating motivations. It is fair game and wholly pertinent.

From wiki, “Ariosophy shared the racial awareness of völkisch ideology, but also drew upon Theosophy's notion of root races, postulating locations such as Atlantis, Thule and Hyperborea as the original homeland of the Aryan race (and its "purest" branch, the Teutons or Germanic peoples). The Ariosophic writings described a glorious ancient Germanic past, in which an elitist priesthood "expounded occult-racist doctrines and ruled over a superior and racially pure society."

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Mary Ballard
3/29/2016 10:34:29 am

What are you nuts! I grew up in Skokie and remember when Frank Collin tried to march. We blocked him then and will continue to denounce his divisive beliefs. He is Frank Joseph, his full name is Francis Joseph Collin. His father changed the family's last name from Cohen or Cohn to Collin after WWII.

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Richard Flavin link
3/29/2016 11:23:38 am

"We blocked him then..." is a lie. Collin, though the Supreme Court gave him permission to march, chickened out (afraid the JDL would kick the crap out of him), and chose instead to march in Marquette Park and rant against African-Americans, as he'd done many times before. Read what Jason has written above, my online piece is at: www.flavinscorner.com/collin.htm, and then there's always the peer-reviewed academic journal: Wilson, Joseph A. P. 2012. “The Cave Who Never Was: Outsider Archaeology and Failed Collaboration in the USA.” Public Archaeology. 11, 2: 73-95. Thanks for ...nothing.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/29/2014 04:51:42 am

Scott Wolter is NOT a neo-"Nazi" OR a "white supremacist" OR a "racialist" of any stripe …

GET … OVER … IT …

(But … Jason Colavito … YOU are "Italian," yes … ??? Why don't you make use of every opportunity to DENOUNCE The Mafia, La Cosa Nostra, and the WEIRD antics of Silvio Berlusconi … ???)

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Mandalore
4/29/2014 04:57:43 am

Before there is a repeat of earlier, nobody said Wilted was a Nazi in any way. You are not comprehending what was written.

For everyone else, I would suggest not engaging Phil. He will just ignore everyone and repeat the same asinine comments. He apparently gets some sort of pleasure from it, so just ignore him. I know I will.

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Mandalore
4/29/2014 04:58:34 am

Autocorrect changed Wolter to Wilted. Sorry.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/29/2014 05:21:16 am

Well, then … the fact that some OTHER guy is a neo-"Nazi" or a Mafioso or a corrupt politician has NOTHING -- NOTHING AT ALL -- to do with Scott Wolter, who is NONE of those …

So … HEY … !!! Let's discuss … IDEAS … and CLAIMS … and POSSIBILITIES … and EVIDENCE and its interpretation … ???

Hello … ???

Matt Mc
4/29/2014 05:37:02 am

and this blog posting was not about Wolter but rather one of his associates.

Wolter just chooses to work with him as do many many other fringe theorist as stated above.

terry the censor
5/4/2014 11:13:34 am

Phil, your comments here are just stupid on purpose. As you know, Jason didn't say Wolter was a Nazi. But people should have to explain why they do business with Nazis, shouldn't they? Wolter's silence is relevent.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/4/2014 01:20:00 pm

"Innuendo" is "relevent," yes … ???

Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/29/2014 05:44:40 am

So … It is a bit ODD, then, isn't it, that the blog author goes out of his way to bring IN "Scott Wolter" three (3) times (above) … ???

Again …

GET … OVER … IT ...

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Matt Mc
4/29/2014 05:51:07 am

Well he did publish a lot of Wolter's work and Wolter is the hot topic because of AU so I do not see why you are surprised.

Thinks work like that all throughout media, it has been proven that a topic keeps more attention if it is kept relevant by including references that are the current "hot" thing.

Unless of course you are claiming that Wolter does not work with a know racist and the topics that Wolter addresses do have a history of being embraced by people with racist leanings.

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Jason Colavito link
4/29/2014 06:08:30 am

Frank Joseph sort of made it impossible to ignore the Scott Wolter connection since Joseph was the one who published an article about Wolter in an anti-Semitic magazine. That isn't me imposing a narrative; that was Joseph's choice to use Wolter as his exemplar. You'd think Phil would be upset with Joseph rather than me for "bringing in" Wolter so frequently. If Phil would like to know, Joseph has actually mentioned Wolter even more times in his published work, which I did not discuss here. I could have done an entire blog post just on how Frank Joseph uses the work of Scott Wolter, but it wasn't really relevant.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/29/2014 06:10:58 am

Okay …

Scott Wolter is a personal friend and professional colleague of mine for now 25+ years …

SO … When somebody -- ANYBODY -- makes ANY hint of an implication of an innuendo that Scott Wolter is a creepy neo"Nazi" or a vile "white supremacist" or a horrid "racialist" … I will CONTINUE to rise to defend him …

What about that is not clear to you … ???

Matt Mc
4/29/2014 06:18:24 am

Were has anyone made a claim that Wolter is a racist?

All that has been done is point out that he has worked with and for a known racist and that some racist groups embrace his theories.

Please if that has been done point that out.

Do you deny that Wolter has worked with Joseph?

Do you deny that Joseph and other groups like Stormfront have embraced his templar/bloodline claims to support there own racist beliefs?

No where however has anyone stated the Wolter himself is a racist.

Matt Mc
4/29/2014 06:21:16 am

If you are really that concerned for your friend perhaps instead of give Jason a hard time for discussing the relationship between the two you should talk to Wolter as to why he has a relationship with someone like Joseph.

This whole thing would not be a topic of discussion if Wolter had chosen not to work with someone like Joseph. His choice, he also choose to be a public figure and have a TV show. So his actions led to these discussions not the other way around.

J.A Dickey
4/29/2014 12:26:35 pm

Wendell Willkie defended FDR's decision making after loosing
the election in 1940! He had earned FDR's full respect, even
though our wartime POTUS knew poor W.W was an isolationist
fascist "silver shirt" magnet all over our Great Plains despite his
One World clarion call for an organization like the U.N in NYC!
I can't label Scott Wolter a fascist, nor Rand Paul either, even
though on the surface they may have voters like Mr. Willkie's!

Clint Knapp
4/29/2014 06:11:58 am

Isn't it also a bit odd that you never have anything useful to say? Isn't it odd that for all the raving about how we should discuss claims on their own merit and facts that you yourself never do- even when such discussions are the actual topic at hand? Isn't it also odd that your grasp of punctuation and the proper use of ellipses is somehow less than that of a third grader?

Remember, Phil: It's just a blog. Get over it. More importantly; get over yourself.

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Cathleen Anderson
4/29/2014 08:11:51 am

Scott Wolter has profited from his association with the pedophile who is also a Nazi sympathizer. He is guilty of racism by association because he has failed to acknowledge that and account for the bias. So yes, in my opinion, he is a racist with support for Nazi beliefs.

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Tara Jordan link
4/29/2014 09:01:33 am

Guilt by association is a Stalinist & Fascist concept.I am not trying to defend Scott Wolter,but considering the fact that he is a crappy researcher & amateurish historian,he probably never had any idea about Frank Joseph`s background.
Logically speaking,I don't see the benefit for someone like Wolter,who used to be legit,to be associated with a neo Nazi pedophile.

Matt Mc
4/29/2014 09:16:21 am

I agree Tara for the most part and I can only speculate that Wolter did not know of Joesph's background. I do agree that not knowing would be yet another example of how bad a researcher he is.

I fully agree about hurting his professional career and his being a expert witness the working relationship between him and known white power leader could be used to discredit him on the stand. I also know from having to get Govt Clearances having a active relationship with someone like Joseph would affect the clearance being approved and if there are govt contracts involved could lead to either removal from the project or loss of contract.

I do however think that over the course of time they have been involved it would be hard not to know about Josephs past but you never know he could just be that naive.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/29/2014 09:38:10 am

The posting by "Cathleen Anderson" (above) demonstrates WHY I will continue to continue to rise to defend my friend and professional colleague, Scott Wolter, who IS NOT a neo-"Nazi" OR a "white supremacist" OR a "racialist of any sort ...

Matt Mc
4/29/2014 09:49:07 am

And that could very well be correct Phil and I believe you. However you do have a personal relationship with Wolter and know the person beyond his public self.

Wolters views on the show and his work with Josephs publications are part of his public self and people are left to form opinions about a public persona like Wolter based on their public self which is what Cathleen is doing and she is entitled to that opinion.

We have discussed in the past about the importance of the public self and how you present yourself once you enter the public arena. Like I mentioned above relationships like this could hurt his real professional career since he has stated he has been a expert witness and has worked on Govt. contract. He might not have ever thought of that and I would recommend you being his friend talk to him about how things like this could affect him in his personal life.

Instead of getting mad at people like Jason and Cathleen you should be worried about the choices your friend is making in presenting himself to the public and the ramifications they can make. The ownness for the decision lies on Wolter and not those who simple look to the publicly accessable information to educate themselves about Wolter.

Now you could help people understand who Wolter is a person and maybe help them understand that he is in fact not a racist but your snarky CAPS laden comments are more combative than educative and that ownness is on you.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/29/2014 09:54:21 am

I do confess … that I find it FRUSTRATING to have to keep on keeping on posting the same defense over and over and over and OVER again …

But I do so because -- ONLY because -- *somebody* keeps on keeping on making "Fascist"-"Stalinist" guilt by association remarks about my friend ...

Tara Jordan link
4/29/2014 09:59:23 am

@Matt.
When dealing with moral,political & ethical issues,we have to be extremely careful.If you look deeper,the skeptic movement is also riddle with scandals about sexual harassments,conflicts of interests,frauds,misogyny,sexism & even more sinister issues (there have been serious allegations about a famous debunker "interactions" with young boys).Let`s not forget James Randi controversial
"Social Darwinism" comments:
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/533-following-up.html
Is Randi a Nazi for expressing such views?.It was a matter of personal interpretation.I always considered Randi to be a third class pseudo intellectual. My sarcasm was vindicated.He demonstrated his ignorance of evolutionary theory with the Social Darwinist/ Survival of the fittest comments.In evolutionary theory,the fittest doesn't necessarily survives,the one who has the ability to adapt,does....
Personally, I believe that the guilt by association concept is extremely dangerous & pernicious.It is an open door for intellectual terrorism & Mccarthyism.

Matt Mc
4/29/2014 10:02:49 am

In fairness Phil he does it because there is a relationship there.

It exist and right now it is not being ignored which is a good thing.

Like I said the ownness is on Wolter for having the relationship and not Jason for pointing it out.

You still have not answered if you deny that the relationship exist?

If you do not deny it exists you have to accept that people will draw a connection since working for and with some like Joseph and having theories that are used and forwarded by racist groups whether intenional or not could lead many a person to draw a connection and make an assumption about Wolter.


Matt Mc
4/29/2014 10:19:19 am

Tara I agree it is a slippery slope and one must be very careful.

It happens in the Political arena all the time and is happening right now with both Cliven Bundy's comments and the owner of the Clippers. The best thing a public person can do is monitor and try to control the public persona and be very much aware that any questionable relationships in your past can and most likely will come forward. So own up before someone else brings it up, the later normally has a worse outcome. Lets face it scandals make money, people love them, they would much rather have controversy and controversy generates attention and remember in the world of media any attention whether if it is bad or good is better than no attention at all.


Peter
4/30/2014 04:26:23 am

Your friend is an asshole Rev.

Titus Pullo (or Mike whose Dad was from Auburn)
4/29/2014 06:03:52 am

I would defend someone to the point where they find out the background of a "common traveler" in terms of their interests or views. During the financial crisis, I got involved in the local economic club. It was great fun debating keynsian versus austrian economics. I spent some time going to meeting with a local libertarian type group but there was this one guy who I enjoyed talking to and even went to a few college economic talks with...I gave a talk and even let him speak. I really didn't know him at all but we shared the stage. I later learned of some issues that forced to me never again have anything to do with this person. Given Mr. Joseph's past, once Mr. Wolter knew, he should distance himself from him.

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Walt
4/29/2014 08:56:54 am

Seems there are a lot of self-righteous holier-than-thou types around these parts. Which is worse, being friends with a hypothetical law-abiding racist or an open-minded murderer? I can say I wouldn't work with Frank Joseph, but I can't say he's any worse of a person than others I've worked with. There are a lot of racist people in this country, and sometimes it shows up in the last person you'd expect. It'd be a statistical anomaly for everyone commenting here to have no racist co-workers, friends, or family. I call BS, but unfortunately we'll never know.

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Matt Mc
4/29/2014 09:07:56 am

Sure most people have family members or maybe friends with racist tendencies. I know I do and I have not spoken to that part of the family in over 20 years and those Friends I had are former friends. If someone I know spouts racist talk I confront them and if it continues I end the relationship, if it is a co-worker I simply do not interact with them and in my world of freelance working I will never take another job from that client. Sure other might not be as harsh as I am but it is something I take very seriously.

So speak for yourself. Some of us have witnessed first hand the horrible effects of racism and refuse to cater and accept it in anyway. We all in life make our own personal choices. So call BS all you want but some people do and will refuse to tolerate racism and discrimination.

But there is a difference from knowing someone who is a racist and working for someone who used to be the leader of the American Nazi party and was convicted pedophile.

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Varika
4/29/2014 04:02:52 pm

Walt, why are you assuming that one must be worse than the other? The murderer has killed at least one person--but the racist has caused misery regularly and to hundreds. How do you judge which one is worse?

Now, as for working with racist co-workers, I have indeed done so. Guess what? I called them out on the racism. I also didn't turn around and espouse their views as being Most Wonderful And True. I have also walked out of a job because of the discrimination and bigotry that was going on there. So maybe you should step back, sir, and consider again what is being said. This article, and the comments on it, aren't about whether or not someone should completely isolate every racist ever. It's about whether or not someone should ignore the racism, and the answer to that, in my opinion, is a resounding NO.

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Walt
4/30/2014 07:16:36 am

That was my point. None of us is qualified to judge others. People here are outraged that fringe authors have befriended a racist. Out in the real world, these fringe authors are a joke for many more reasons than that. Nobody listens to them, considers their ideas, or even acknowledges their existence frankly. So, having "a Frank Joseph problem" is a rather moot point in the long run. A bit like saying the Hindenburg was painted the wrong color.

Wolter's the only one who isn't a joke yet to the average Joe, and that's only because his radio appearances and books aren't discussed on the TV show.

Mark
9/7/2017 02:20:39 pm

One thing that needs to be recognized is that at times people like Frank use or quote the research of someone they are not associated with, they may even make up quotes, it has happened to me in relationship to Frank.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/29/2014 12:07:27 pm

I will continue to defend my friends ...

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J.A Dickey
4/29/2014 12:29:06 pm

Mr.Scott Wolter is no more wrongheaded than is Sen. Rand Paul!
Joe McCarthy implied all of IKE's staffers were closet communists.
lets tone down the political hyperbole in honor of FDR's leadership.

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(jad)
4/29/2014 12:34:44 pm

The facts of the matter are that Frank Joseph (collins) did his
dahhhhhhhmmmmdest personal best to bury a prison record.
Yes, SW should have been more careful, but so should 9/10ths
of today's Hollywood. These unfortunate criminal rings exist.

typo... COLLIN, not collins
4/29/2014 12:50:05 pm

his last name as a Nazi organizer
is more like a middle or first name.
his A.K.As do have their moments

there are Irish Cohens...too
4/29/2014 12:56:18 pm

if this poor woman was a very very very very distant cousin of his,
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0153858/ stage names often are an
agreed upon choice. http://www.rhapsody.com/artist/leonard-cohen

Varika
4/29/2014 04:04:29 pm

Why don't you slap "your friends" on the side of the head and tell them to get said heads screwed on straight, instead? You'd be a better friend if you did.

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Clint Knapp
4/29/2014 05:12:13 pm

A defense would imply some form of intelligent deflection and countering of blows. All you've done is repeat the same thing over and over, Phil. That's not defending. That's curling up in a ball and screaming while you wait for your opponent to attack from a different angle.

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Mark L
4/29/2014 09:45:38 pm

How about, rather than post exactly the same thing hundreds of times on a blog you clearly completely disagree with, why not ask your friend why he's happy to be associated with a Nazi, one who seems to have not abandoned too many of his views?

In your work as a Reverend, do you just repeat the same thing over and over again, no matter what other people want to talk about?

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/29/2014 11:51:45 pm

LOL …

I understand that the purpose of these blogs -- and of most of the people who post here -- is to enjoy the internet sport of BASHING Scott Wolter … I "get" it that my presence and contributions get in the way …

Sorry … But when my friend and professional colleague is accused by innuendo of promoting repugnant ideas that he does NOT hold … I will continue to rise up …

Matt Mc
4/30/2014 12:30:37 am

I think this quote is fitting to this conversation

"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society."

Theodore Roosevelt


And Rev I admire you staunch defending of you friend, whom I have stated many time that I do not think is a racist. You however still have not answered the question I posed to you many times

Do you not find it troubling that your friend has worked with and for are person like Frank Joseph?

This is not about bashing Wolter, in fact I do hope that you as a friend would say something to Wolter about this relationship and maybe help educate him how having a professional and perhaps personal relationship with someone like Joseph could hurt his both his fringe history and geology career. Which is something I would think a good friend would do, I know I would.

You must remember it is possible to be critical without "bashing". Remember it should be about the facts and I hope we agree on them in this case, the fact is Wolter is not a racist but his decisions about who he works with and publishes with could be construed by many as an acceptance of racist beliefs. It is sad but true and hopefully be remedied one day, it will be for the better of Wolter and the fringe community as a whole.

Peter
4/30/2014 04:30:16 am

The purpose of this blog is not to bash Mr. Wolter. That is a stupid statement. Your friend is an asshole. That is a fact.

Dan
4/29/2014 02:10:42 pm

I suspect that while the Nazi party stuff is troubling to the fringe writers that have associated with Joseph, its really the pedophilia that probably troubles them more. I mean, as much as we can argue about the effect of race and ethnic bias on the fringe theories and their dismissal of Native American culture and their Euro-biases, all sides of the argument (no matter how fringe) can agree that child molestation is an evil that can't be justified in any rational way.
That is to say, I would say that a guy like Childress is probably a lot more creeped out by Joseph's pedophilia than his Nazism and that may be the primary justification for distancing himself from Joseph.

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Harry
4/30/2014 01:05:31 am

If Jacques de Mahieu and Frank Joseph engaged in sober scholarship, backed up by sound evidence and the work of qualified, disinterested scholars, and did not promote theories based on white supremacy, then their prior history of Nazism would arguably be irrelevant to a consideration of those theories. The fact that none of that is true makes their Nazism very relevant. De Mahieu, by the way, was a member of the SS in World War II, so he also presumably wore a Nazi uniform.

And if Wolter apparently does not recognize the relevance of their Nazism (brushing it off in de Mahieu's case and ignoring it entirely in Joseph's case), then that is a black mark against Wolter's own credibility. Therefore, unless Jason is wrong and Wolter did not take any ideas from either (and I have no reason to doubt Jason on that point) or Wolter independently verified the theories he adopted from them (and the lack of sound evidence and his free use of conjecture makes me doubt that he has), then Wolter has no one to blame but himself for the implication that his theories might be tainted by the racism of his sources, even though he himself is presumably not racist.

Put more simply: As things stand now, it appears to me that Jason has every right to tie Wolter's theories to former Nazis who he either directly cites or whose claims he cites in support of those theories. If Phil thinks he is wrong, then he needs to cite actual facts that demonstrate the claims that Wolter borrows from them have some sound basis outside of those ex-Nazis' imaginations. I am not holding my breath.

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An Over-Educated Grunt
4/30/2014 01:43:53 am

Slight nitpick. Mahieu might have been a member of Division "Charlemagne," but there was a difference (at least in the minds of the Nazi leadership) between "xx Waffen-Division der SS" and "xx SS-Division." The former were foreign collaborators and fellow-travelers, but not truly members of the SS, with German watchers. They were as much SS men as the Foreign Legion are French citizens, and served a similar purpose, if the Germans had won (admittedly unlikely at the late stage of the war where they started organizing non-Germanic SS divisions), or, perhaps a more direct comparison, like the Germanic mercenaries used by the Romans to supplement their own dwindling manpower as the empire aged. So yes, he had lightning-bolt collar tabs, but he wasn't an "SS man" in the eyes of those who were inarguably SS men.

I have an opinion on this one, but frankly, my patience for posting on one more thread where a misguided clergyman yells "LEAVE BRITTNEY ALONE!" every time someone points out that his friend is capable of error is gone, so I'll state it once and ignore any protests. Wolter has associated with, and borrowed from, known racists without even the slightest disavowal of their beliefs. In Mahieu's case, he's called them irrelevant to the accuracy of his findings (and how are the biases of the researcher EVER irrelevant to their findings?), but he has never actually come out and said that he disagrees with them. This is whitewashing. To my knowledge, he's never addressed Frank Joseph/Collin's beliefs, but I admit to being less than fully informed. But my point is that silence in this case is tacit endorsement, and whitewashing someone's unsavory past rather than acknowledging it and the problems it creates is more than tacit endorsement. So yes, if you want to frame this conversation around Scott Wolter, he's screwed up, stuck his foot in it, and he could very easily remove his foot by saying "oops, didn't know that, I'll avoid it in the future." I predict what he'll do, based on "Akhenaten," is double down on his protests that their backgrounds are irrelevant.

If, on the other hand, you want to frame the conversation about fringe writers in general, it should be remembered that the fringe politics-fringe history loop is exactly that. To use a convenient and relevant example, the Nazis drew off Lanz von Liebenfels, who drew off the pan-Germanists of the Wilhelmine era, who drew off Romantic notions of a German destiny, which was formed by the German reaction to Napoleon... the cycle goes on and on and on, and it's not really surprising that the snake never quite runs out of tail to eat.

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Cargile
4/30/2014 02:52:28 am

Was Frank Joseph Collins and his right to march American Nazis caricatured in the "Blues Brothers"?

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Matt Mc
4/30/2014 02:56:50 am

Yes that was based on Frank Collins

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Gunn
4/30/2014 05:28:49 am

I'm enjoying the commentary here and learning a lot from it. Earlier, I decided to do my own Frank Joseph Collin Google search to see what might pop up. I had wondered what could "possess" a man to turn so violently against his own father's heritage, and I did in fact discover a mention or two about his apparent hatred of his father. Whether or not this same hatred contributed to his conviction for homosexual child molestation is another matter entirely. Seemingly, the man is self-tormented, besides being outwardly tormenting to others.

Yet, this doesn't quite make sense, because he's still in the public eye, which includes a very public Wikipedia summation of his sordid life to date, including a mention of his past crime. In other words, take note, folks, that Frank's past is not hidden away, waiting to be explored for the first time. Frank was--and still is--a very public figure, and it looks to me like this is okay with him as a sort of inopportune thorn in his side which he must put up with in order to continue making money.

I was a state corrections officer for several years back in the Eighties. One thing I've noticed over the years is society's change in its collective feelings about sexual offenders. It is quite possible that our friend, Frank, would be in societal custody in some way for the rest of his life if he had committed his crimes within the last decade or so. You see, in many states, sex offenders are pretty much given up on now. Treatment hasn't worked very well with this group, so new laws have been enacted, which basically keep sex offenders in a semi-custody limbo status. Their whereabouts must be reported, and communities don't want them. So in a way, this is a group for whom there is perpetual double-jeopardy and no parole. But it didn't use to be this way back in Frank's day. For this, he is fortunate indeed.

But, apparently, the stigma of his past homosexual offenses against children is sinister enough to be projected forward to this day, where a purposely-focused spotlight now strikes him again, and again. He can change his name, but he can't hide in darkness. He knows this, but he's getting old and he's still producing, making money. Apparently, he doesn't mind the public eye, and I think he may even in some perverse way be enjoying it. Maybe he's still getting back at his Old Man.

Anyway, it might be okay to believe in the possibilities of rehabilitation and redemption. The soul of every man, woman and child has some worth. There is still hope for any wrong-doer, as long as one can change one's mind and become a decent person. An eye-for-an-eye is from a past dispensation; but tell that to Texas. As long as a person isn't put to death, there is hope for some kind of redemption.

But if sex offenders are hopeless, as a group, then Frank shouldn't be free on the street, right? So, are we here on this blog carrying a newly updated sentence forward, retroactively? Should this blog be doing this, or not? I don't pretend to know the answer. Society likes to believe in rehabilitation and spiritual redemption (generally speaking), but sex offenders as a group have proven themselves to be untrustworthy...with exceptions, of course.

But I think Jason is right in presupposing that Frank carries unwanted baggage into the arena of the fringe history he espouses. But Frank doesn't seem to care, as criticism is just part of the taxation he must pay to continue making a living.

Rev. Phil, In this situation, Jason has become a spotlight, nobly trying to thwart non-fictional wrong-doers. In trying to focus the beam of light on a supposed rat (for both past and present crimes), the light seems to be picking up other shadows, which we can barely make out....

I'm thinking that it may be good for the other barely identifiable creatures in the peripheries to withdraw to the safer shadows, where there won't be this perceived "rubbing off" effect. If Frank is the easily identifiable and diseased protagonist in this non-fiction storyline, then Wolter would do well to keep his distance from him, as have others, with prudence. We don't want him to be shown in a false spotlight, right?

Frank is damaged goods, even though there's always hope for him while he's still alive (70?). Wolter becomes damaged goods, too, through association with him. The outcome is unavoidable. Like with the Mennonites, maybe Wolter needs to be shunned. Should Wolter be shunned for his continuing blasphemies against his Maker, or should you take him by the hand and gently try to lead him towards that narrow gate? I respect either approach, though you will undoubtedly end up suffering here on this blog for your current approach at being doggedly loyal.

I admire your loyalty, Rev. Phil, but I hope you recognize true, un-Godly blasphemy when you see it, too, in the Jesus bloodline nonsense. In my opinion, this quarter of Scott's life is indefensible. Be careful you don't get tarnished,

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Gunn
4/30/2014 05:32:17 am

Be careful you don't get tarnished by Scott, as Scott has apparently been tarnished by Frank. Some of Scott's viewpoints are quite devilish. I, for one, would not want to consort with Bill Maher, for instance, even though I might pray for him. Your friend is carelessly damaging himself, in my opinion, and you are taking unnecessary blows here defending him.

He's not just being tainted here, now; he's already been busy tainting himself for years, which is self-defeating in the long run, spiritually or otherwise. In simple terms, his past associations and ideas are nipping at his heels, and he may deserve this, since he apparently hasn't repented of his blasphemies--which in eternal terms may be even more terrible in consequences than Frank's child molestations, if gone unforgiven.

But this is about true history being tainted, even while we yearn for the truth. Well, I support looking for the truth and trying to un-spoil rottenness, even though that is sometimes like trying to separate fly poop out of pepper...the same with trying to understand exactly why some fringe thinkers think like they do. But there seems to be a form of self-tarnishing going on, based on not giving possible consequences much thought, and there seems to be very little dignity, too, which is the strangeness in all this.

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(jad) imoho
4/30/2014 12:56:15 pm

Jerry Springer began his career as an aide to Bobby Kennedy
and was in California that tragic day in 1968 but has ended up
as a standard for good taste and excellence in our mass media.
this is something to keep in mind about mass media exposure.
anything worse than what J.S often airs is often very censurable.

Gunn
4/30/2014 03:06:10 pm

Speaking of looking for the truth, all evidence shows that Bobby Kennedy was shot from behind, and low. Sirhan, obviously under the influence of hypnosis, shot at Kennedy from in front of him. They were always facing one another. This is no puzzle; this is American injustice in perpetual motion. There is nothing to figure out in the tragic, conspiratorial murder of Bobby, when it comes to understanding with clarity that Sirhan did not shoot him. It only takes five minutes to see that a patsy still sits rotting away in the lumpy, fast-aging form of Sirhan Sirhan. Where's the outrage? Maybe Jerry Springer should be forced to trade places with Sirhan, in which case we might end up with more justice being served than is now the case.

(jad)
4/30/2014 08:23:16 pm

Gunn, you are often blunt, direct and honest...
most often thusly in that exact order. I had read
about those theories, too. I am feeling older...

Martin R
5/3/2014 07:40:47 am

I guess the posters here are unable to resist Rev. Phil. They rise to his well-designed comments - designed to highjack the blog - like trout to a well-tied fly. It's kind of funny, actually.

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william smith
5/4/2014 10:25:44 am

Birds of a feather flock together - I met Frank Joseph, Scott Wolter and Wayne May at the 2005 AAPF conference and the history of Frank as a child molester was whispers at that time, however the Burrows Cave artifacts were being pushed as authentic and big money was being spent to find the so called cave. When Frank was serving time in prison Mr. Burrows was a guard at that same prison. To call Scott Wolter a professional because you have known him for 25 years is your opinion. The only question remaining is what profession is he? Very few academics in archaeology would seek any advise from these self claimed professionals.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/4/2014 10:42:34 am

Scott Wolter is a professional geologist, and it is in that context that he and I have had an ongoing professional relationship, having worked together for 25+ years on several earth science educational projects …

We also happen to be personal friends …

If YOU have a problem with those facts, that is YOUR problem, not mine, nor Scott's ...

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Only Me
5/4/2014 01:24:02 pm

Nope. It's YOUR problem. Your bias is Brobdingnagian, and the way you discard the truth in favor of your manufactured propaganda rivals the sensationalism of early 20th century yellow journalism.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/4/2014 02:33:22 pm

LOL ….

Mmmmm … No … Accurate real life real world KNOWLEDGE (as distinct from mere prejudice) is not "bias" …

And, again, no … I am NOT the fella who is routinely engaging in gossipy muckraking -- "Psssst … !!! Just wait until I tell you the LATEST dirt about […………] … !!!"

Only Me
5/4/2014 03:25:09 pm

Yes, you are biased and prejudiced and no amount of denial will undo your past statements proving both.

Yes, you are engaged in gossipy muckraking, by trying to lay at Jason's feet false accusations only you believe are real. You have brought your witch-hunt tactics to this and another blog post that have nothing to do with Scott and/or Nazis.

william smith
5/5/2014 05:05:00 pm

Rev. Were you with Scott Wolter when he studied the NH Mystery stone? He called it a likely Indian artifact. Had he not been so focused on looking for a hooked X on the Mystery Stone he would have studied the stone composition and found it only exist on the fault line in France, Spain and Portugal. It has a signature by comparing the small white crystals in the stone which are created by pressure generated underground when these platonic plates come in contact. I do not claim to be a professional like you and Scott, however the next business meeting you have with him tell him I have located the sister stone to this lodestone from a compass found in NY that he rejected years ago. Also tell him the oval stone on the west archway in the Newport Tower will not have sun light on it on Dec. 21st. You can also tell him the Kensington Rune Stone has a .022 in. mechanical wear line which indicates it was made to stand in an upright position and not buried to be found by linking mooring stone holes. He has my number because the last time I talked to him he threatened to sue me. You can also tell him that Harvard has rejected the fake paper that states Jesus was married to Mary.

Richard Flavin link
7/22/2015 04:03:58 pm

It's my understanding that before he encountered Nielsen and the KRS his employment was describing potential roads for the state. After KRS (and the FACT that I gave him my great grandfather's 1890 chisel to help in his research and the ...fellow has NOT returned it). Collin (aka 'Joseph) is a creep and Wolter is just a plain punk... Please feel free to contact me if you disagree.
Richard Flavin

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/4/2014 03:46:19 pm

Patiently … not for the first time (nor almost certainly for the LAST) …

*Someone*else* has RELENTLESSLY posted up one blog discussion after another "witch-hunting" NONSENSE associating Scott Wolter with (neo-esoteric-proto-crypto) "Nazis" …

I KNOW Scott Wolter VERY well -- both personally and professionally (in fact, we just had a very pleasant business lunch meeting just last week, and there were NO "Nazis" of any stripe in attendance; NO Wagner playing the background, or any such thing) ...

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Only Me
5/4/2014 04:16:20 pm

No one has done any such thing. It is a figment of your imagination, nothing more.

You, on the other hand, have relentlessly posted in more than one blog post witch-hunting nonsense questioning Jason's motives and attacking his character. The irony is that you continue to contradict you're earlier comments about how such tactics have no place in a discussion.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/4/2014 04:49:50 pm

Nonsense …

I have attacked no one's character … I do confess to being puzzled about the motives of one or more of the folks here, including our host ...

Only Me
5/4/2014 05:04:23 pm

So bringing Jason's Italian heritage into the discussion and proclaiming the purpose of the blog is to bash Scott as an "Internet sport", is not attacking Jason's character? You've been ascribing a nefarious motive towards him for days, including, a vendetta supported by "secret trash" files. That would be unethical, therefore you've questioned his character.

I'm puzzled by your motives. The is nothing to prove your allegations, only your person interpretation.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/4/2014 05:15:45 pm

This getting really weird …

Our host did a few days ago mildly suggest that I should back off and pipe down because he had in his possession a BOOK-length file of dirt-trash-crap on Scott Wolter which he MIGHT publish ...

Only Me
5/4/2014 05:33:52 pm

He also explained quite clearly that the file contained damaging accusations and claims made by, and sent, by others. He further clarified that he didn't use the information because it was relevant to his articles.

He wanted you to back off because, in Jason's own words, "I am getting sick of being told I'm involved in character assassination."

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/4/2014 05:37:16 pm

Well, then …

How about this … ??? Let's just simply discuss the known FACTS and (known and disputed) EVIDENCE re: North American history and prehistory … ???

duh

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Only Me
5/4/2014 05:41:56 pm

We can, when you will reciprocate and stay on topic.

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Clint Knapp
5/5/2014 02:04:59 am

Fact: This blog is not about North American history and prehistory.

Fact: Some posts are. This one is not.

Fact: Phil Gotsch does does not dictate the topic. Ever.

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Clint Knapp
5/5/2014 02:06:01 am

-1 does.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/4/2014 05:47:10 pm

Again …

I'M not the the guy who keeps on keeping on making dire postings about neo-esoteric-proto-cryptic-"Nazis" ...

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Only Me
5/4/2014 05:49:43 pm

Still violating the "single repetition of an argument" part of the comment policy.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/5/2014 10:59:23 am

To quote one of my heroes, Basil Fawlty, "It's perfectly SIMPLE … !!!"

When*ever others STOP repeating IMPLICATIONS tying Scott Wolter into a bizarre neo-crypto-esoteric-proto-"Nazi" schema, THEN I can and will STOP responding to these calumnies ...

Only Me
5/5/2014 05:34:15 pm

When you stop lying through your teeth about implications that were never made in the first place, people will stop calling you out on it.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/5/2014 05:38:46 pm

So …

You agree with me that the relentless frequent mentioning of "Scott Wolter" in conjunction with "Nazis" … is simply pointless distraction from the REAL questions about North American history and pre-history ...

Only Me
5/5/2014 06:34:23 pm

No, I do not. Scott has traveled with, submitted articles to and adapted ideas from two individuals with ties to Nazism. That relationship, professional or otherwise, is pertinent to how he interprets and presents answers to questions about North American prehistory. Bad ideas are bad ideas, regardless of who proposes them. That Scott would even dismiss influential factors that helped form those ideas as "irrelevant and unimportant" is troublesome. Is his narrative so important, that he is willing to overlook the components of racism, white superiority and ideology that are the foundations of de Mahieu's and Joseph's works? These works are reflections of a distorted view that seeks to reinterpret facts in favor of racial identity.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 03:19:28 am

Scott Wolter is NOT "racial identity" zealot of any sort, "Nazi" or otherwise ...

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Matt Mc
5/6/2014 04:11:45 am

Not he only works with them.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 04:33:04 am

As noted previously by another visitor, "guilt by association" is a "Fascist"-"Stalinist" gambit … so I guess you feel comfortable being associated with those folks … ???

Jason Colavito link
5/6/2014 04:51:07 am

I'm sorry, but aren't we talking about the same Scott Wolter who nodded approvingly on America Unearthed (S02E12) while his "friend" Don Shelby discussed how sad it was that the Knights of the Golden Circle didn't succeed in creating a hemispheric slave super-state, agreeing that you "have to admire" said pro-slavery group? Wolter does a fine job of associating himself with disturbing positions.

Only Me
5/6/2014 05:04:40 am

Stick to the subject, Phil. You asked if I agreed with you that mentioning Scott's association with known Nazis is pointless distraction. I did not, and pointed out how his adaption and defense of their ideas is troublesome.

That you're so dim as to mistake questioning why he would choose to collaborate with, and borrow material from, individuals of unsavory character with a personal attack for whatever ends, demonstrates a conspiratorial mindset.

You're not defending your friend, only a perceived slight, and you haven't done so honorably.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 05:23:05 am

Scott Wolter's investigations of cultural diffusion and patterns and routes of exploration and migration of peoples have NOTHING to do with "Nazi" ideology …

North American history and pre-history are REALLY interesting … Let's discuss that ...

Only Me
5/6/2014 06:48:10 am

Not Nazi ideology proper, but he has accepted "research" from Jacques de Mahieu asserting Viking-Aryan hegemony over the Americas, and the Templars voyaged to America to mine silver for coins. He also "investigated" Burrows Cave, a known hoax supported by none other than Frank Joseph. Do I need to mention, again, his submission of articles for publication by Joseph?

It's really telling that your complaint is about Jason even bringing up the past collaborations between the two, but you have nothing to say about the list of OTHER fringe authors in the article. But then, that in itself is proof that your claims are bullshit.

You've smoked something, alright. I won't hazard a guess as to what it was.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 07:14:40 am

Look … "Facts" are FACTS (or not), no matter who first proposes or discovers them …

The history of science and of culture in general is REPLETE with all manner of persons and ideas, complete running along with various political, religious and philosophical positions …

So what … ???

We KNOW that in fact "the Vikings" DID journey to North America and engage in some settlement and exploration … Does that FACT somehow in any respect demonstrate a supposed "superiority" to indigenous peoples who had already been there for a long time, or to southern Europeans who came along later, imagining they had found a handy short-cut route to "India" … ??? No … Of course not …

The history and pre-history of North America are REALLY interesting … The fulminations of ideologically-driven flakes and debunkers, not so much ...

Matt Mc
5/6/2014 07:28:29 am

The fact is that Wolter has no ethical problems with working with and for a known Nazi leader and Pedophile.

The fact is the Wolter uses theories forwarded by known racists.

The Fact is that Wolter own theories have be endorsed by known racists.

These are the facts that you so clearly want to hear, you do not like the conclusion people are making about Wolter which is understandable but discussions about Wolters and other fringe historians links to racist theories and ideas are a discussion of the fact. People will come to there own theories just as Wolter comes to his own theories about what he investigates, you may not like it but that is the way things are.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 07:35:51 am

Again … patiently …

As another visitor pointed out earlier … the "guilt by association" trick is an old "Fascist"-"Stalinist" gambit … and YOU are perfectly comfortable with THAT …

So … "Pot" meet "kettle" …
Sauce/Goose//Gravy/Gander …

YOUR problem; not mine ...

Matt Mc
5/6/2014 07:55:09 am

Not my problem at all.

You are the one who has a problem and keep repeating it.

I do not think Wolter is a racist I however do not mind if others reach the guilt by association based on the facts. They have every right to reach whatever the conclusion they seem the facts to dictate. You however have a problem with that.

So Rev it is your problem and you have states as much.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 08:53:24 am

The FACTS of science and of history are FACTS (or not) quite TOTALLY independently of any ideology ...

Matt Mc
5/6/2014 09:11:20 am

The fact is the Wolter has a history or working with or for people who have a documented ideology and that many of Wolter theories have a history of (some cases a foundation) being used to promote a certian ideology.


It would be wrong of a person who is studying or learning about fringe theories to ignore the ideological foundations that lie behind current theories, just as one would be remiss in studying the history of a given culture without exploring the ideologies that lie behind their formation.

So history is full of ideology, it formed most cultures throughout history some good some bad.

Now if you are saying that individuals studying a certain topic should leave there personal ideology behind when studying that subject I would agree but sadly that is the not the case for most people. Wolter uses his ideology all the time, he thinks academia is wrong and rails against it, he thinks the peer review process is flawed so he does not partake in it. These are all his personal ideology and he spouts them off all the time in his blog, show, radio appearances, books, ect...

So I guess ideology can never quite be escaped so we should explore how a given persons claims and theories (as in Wolters case) can be affected by thier own personal ideology so that others when reviewing said opinions, statements or claims can decided if the ideology is affecting the claim or theory.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 09:27:16 am

Well … IF and WHEN Scott Wolter himself starts off on an ideological tangent, then that ideological tangent will be worth discussing vis a vis Scott Wolter …

But … He has done no such thing … Knowing him VERY well, as I do, I don't anticipate that he will GO that way …

This entire bit reminds me -- again -- of the shameful objections that some stellar scientists -- who should have known better -- raised VERY vocally against E. O. Wilson's exceedingly interesting work, "Sociobiology" …

And of course we all know how the science of genetics in general can be and has been MISAPPROPRIATED for heinous ideological reasons and nefarious goals … But that MISUSE in no respect delegitimates "genetics" or "geneticists" …

Again … another visitor to these blogs recently noted that the "Fascists"-"Stalinists" resort to the "guilt by association" gambit … as you are trying to do ...

Matt Mc
5/6/2014 09:42:30 am

Well Rev you see, no one else here has a relationship with Wolter.

Instead in understanding what his theories, others have to rely on his public statements and other information that can be gathered in the public record and they are basing there conclusion as such.

As for taking you word as a friend as I have stated I believe you for the most part but your behavior approaching the topic of Wolter is rather condescending and childish so I could see a lot of people dismissing your opinions based on the way you present yourself.

Matt Mc
5/6/2014 09:46:41 am

And Rev I forgot to add Wolter does buy into and rant into the anti establishment ideology when it comes to the topics he address, remember he is the one who complains so much about academia and how it follows a fixed paradigm. That is an ideology, maybe there is some truth behind it but his staunch expression of his position represents an ideological viewpoint. So maybe you should talk to him about that.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 09:53:27 am

Indeed, I am the only person in this blog who KNOWS Scott Wolter …and ... I … KNOW … that … HE ... IS ... NOT ... IDEOLOGICALLY … MOTIVATED ... IN ... HIS ... PURSUITS ...

Only Me
5/6/2014 09:57:25 am

More pointless, disjointed drivel.

Trust me, I know full well that facts stand on their own. However, when someone like Scott uses his personal ideology, something he does quite frequently, to distort facts so they fit into the "history we've been taught is wrong" narrative, it is absolutely pertinent to understand why he does so.

You can deny it and repeat the same illogical arguments until the moon falls into the sea, but it *does not* change the FACT you have trumped up false witness against Jason precisely because he is unafraid to look into Scott's work and associations...and has found both wanting.

Rev. Phil Gotach
5/6/2014 10:12:53 am

Again … as often as necessary …

I have KNOWN Scott Wolter as a personal friend and as a professional colleague for 25+ years …

and ... I … KNOW …

… that … HIS … PURSUITS … ARE … NOT … IDEOLOGICALLY … MOTIVATED …

Period.

Now, yes, of course … His investigations and findings and conclusions COULD BE misused by some OTHER person who IS driven by ideological notions and goals … but … that has NOTHING to do directly with Scott Wolter, any more than the MISUSE of "genetics" by would-be eugenics enthusiasts has ANYTHING legitimately to do with Chuck Darwin, Greg Mendel, Jean-Baptiste Lamarck, E. O. Wilson, or the local Planned Parenthood Clinic … NOTHING …

GET … OVER … IT ...

Matt Mc
5/6/2014 10:26:04 am

Seems like personal relationships are preventing rational thinking, so one should look on what you say Rev as coming from someone with such a large personal bias that he cannot see things objectively .

When someone bias is so strong it is impossible to discuss facts with them because there bias prevents them from viewing that facts with objectivity. Rev is the perfect example of this

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 10:35:12 am

"Only Me" (whoever you are) --

Recognizing the necessity of DISTINGUISHING "science" from "ideology" and "history" from "ideology" … is not "bias" …

It's simply common sense and integrity …

RELENTLESSLY pursuing a vendetta, OTOH … well … that is something else … and only you know for sure why it is that you have an obsession with trying to discredit Scott Wolter ...

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 10:50:08 am

Oooops …

Not to "Only Me," but to "Mack Mc" … (twins separated at birth … ???)

Only Me
5/6/2014 11:00:29 am

I don't care that you know Scott Wolter. I don't care that you're his friend, you've been to his house or that both of you like pina coladas and long slow walks on the beach.

You make every excuse for him because you know him, but you don't know Jason at all. That doesn't stop you from accusing him of prejudice, a personal vendetta and insinuations based on questionable motives.

This is heart of the matter; you lied. That's what concerns me, your baseless allegations, not Scott or Jason.

You want a discussion of facts, but when we start, you jump ship to rant on about personal attacks, insults and innuendo. When we address those topics, you jump back to wanting to discuss facts. Truth is, you don't want a discussion about Scott or anything related to him, and you don't want anyone else having a discussion about him, either. That's why you admitted you didn't come here to debate. No, you want to derail any and every blog post that has Scott in it. You want to bully everyone else into silence. Good luck with that.

In none of Jason's articles does he explicitly state, suggest or hint that fringe authors/historians, collaborating or borrowing from men like Joseph or de Mahieu, share the beliefs of their quasi-religion. He listed no less than eight individuals that have had past dealings with Joseph, to show Scott is not unique. He gave the link to Joseph's interview talking about his road trip with Scott. He mentioned that "Joseph was the one who published an article about Wolter in an anti-Semitic magazine", possibly without Scott's knowledge or permission.

You lied. You won't own up to it and you'll keep repeating it, because, yeah, how dare the world not share your opinion... blasphemy!!

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 11:06:49 am

Scott Wolter has NOTHING to do with "Nazi" ideology, whether "neo-," or "proto-crypto-," or "esoteric" …

(nor do I …)

Only Me
5/6/2014 11:12:48 am

Exactly. But YOU are the one that spun a lie to the contrary and laid it upon Jason.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 11:27:09 am

Whoever You Are --

Have a nice evening ...

Matt Mc
5/6/2014 12:44:37 pm

First Rev. names Matt, I get the Mack part however, funny how in stating you friend is not a racist you address someone with a potential Irish last name with a common racial slang used in identify Irishmen. Good one defending a friend from racism by using insulting terms yourself does not help ones argument. Now am I calling you a racist, no I just think you are being ignorant and are trying to provoke. I really don't care and I have been called worse names in my life but it goes to show that racism is indeed a topic that is needed to be addressed because in attempts to insult even people of "faith" choose to resort to it to insult others.

And to put it clearly as I can, what I said was the since you are good friends with Wolter your own personal feelings about the man are preventing you to look at him the public persona he has created for himself objectively. Because of the displayed personal bias you are unable to understand and do think these subjects should be addressed and explored. Also because of the openly displayed bias your statements should be taken with a grain of salt.

So have a great evening and I forgive you for the racist statement because I do believe that you are better than that its just that your passion for Scott leads you to do silly things.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 04:12:10 pm

(Whoever You Are) --

Huh … VERY interesting … I have trouble sometimes keeping exact track of exactly which circling "snark" is on the attack at any given spot, and I don't always get the monikers correctly …

But, no … I had no idea that "Mack" (a "slip" on my part) is an insult to Irish folk, nor (obviously) did I know -- or COULD I have known -- that you are Irish …

But anyway (whoever you are) … have a nice evening ...

Matt Mc
5/7/2014 12:22:45 am

To put it bluntly Rev, I do not buy your shit. You are a person who comes to this place only to be an asshole. Something you have proved you are.

First you make racist statement and they you deny it. Common on people who use racist remarks.

Your are not representing your friend well and you are most defiantly not representing you supposed position of a man of cloth.

So have a good day and like I say to many of the other people I have delt with in life who use racist terms I hope you wake up and look in the mirror and maybe one day work to better yourself.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/7/2014 02:46:05 am

Ah … Now it's cursing and name calling …

In any case, the reason -- the ONLY reason -- I visit these blogs is to ride to defend the honor and character of my friend and colleague, Scott Wolter …

That some guys don't like it is THEIR problem, not mine ...

Matt Mc
5/7/2014 03:51:27 am

Nope just the statements of facts.

You sir are the one who used racially derogatory remarks and than hid behind that sad excuse of I did not know.


Like I said I hope you look at you agenda, look at the words you use and the manner in which you present them and realize that you are not posting here to clarify things but are posting simply because you enjoy playing the role of the asshole.

Thing is assholes never really do help educate people or help them better understand things, instead they just help prove that the person being the asshole indeed is an asshole.

So please by all mean continue being an ass on Wolters behalf, continue to say there is no racism in Wolter arguments by making racist statements or perhaps mocking statements of the Host Italian heritage it goes so well to prove the Wolter and his ilk are not racist. So by all means continue, it really is helping so the hypocrisy.



Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/6/2014 04:56:11 am

LOL …

Scott Wolter does not pine for the good old days of slavery, nor does he wish that The Confederacy had won the War Between the States …

I suppose that you imagine the classic novel and film, "Gone With the Wind," to be propaganda -- "The South will rise again …" … ???

Jason …
Your vendetta is SO obvious … You don't even try to hide it any longer … I've "smoked" you "out" ...

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An Over-Educated Grunt
5/7/2014 02:03:26 am

Across the street from where I work, there's a parking lot that used to be a warehouse rail siding. All they did was pave over the rails; they can actually still be seen leading into the parking lot.

That's where this comment thread has gone. It's not just off the rails, the accident's been cleaned up, the rails have been paved over, and the rail line repurposed into a parking lot. Is there no way you can lock this thing down, or at the very least trim back the comments considerably? By my count, 33 of the 113 posts prior to this one are by one person endlessly repeating the same thing. I had expected based on past experience that would run about one in five, which was ridiculous. But two out of every seven posts? It's offensive and it's actively destructive to any sort of discussion, especially with the level of repetition displayed.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/7/2014 04:22:44 am

"Matt" (whoever you are) --

You apparently enjoy basking in self-righteousness and in the sublime pleasures of cursing and slinging insults …

Have a nice day ...

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Matt Mc
5/7/2014 04:28:21 am

No Rev I really hate calling anyone names, I just do not take kindly or let Racists or people who like to call people names using racist terms. Nor should anyone.

And I am not calling anyone names instead just making a statement of the FACTS as I see them.

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Matt Mc
5/7/2014 04:37:45 am

And I am done out of respect for Jason and the people who come to visit the site. Now I know a bit more about Phil and it makes everything more clear now.

I apologize for taking up so much space in this thread, Jason.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/7/2014 04:48:36 am

EXCELLENT …

Let's get back to discussing North American history and prehistory, sans insults and innuendoes …

Again … The fall of the "Clovis First" dogma, the discovery of the Viking settlement in Newfoundland, the fresh verification of the authenticity of the Kensington Rune Stone, the apparent contacts between Hawaii and North America, etc., indicate that the entire picture is much more interesting than just "1492" ...

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SteveStC
5/7/2014 05:34:45 pm

See? Jason-and-his-keyboard mention Wolter and tons of comments flood in. Stand by for even more irrelevant blog posts about SW. Jason needs the attention. The next one will probably be about Scott speaking at some Masonic lodge.

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Only Me
5/7/2014 08:58:28 pm

Stand by for more pointless bitching by Steve. The next round will probably be about Jason being obsessive and having no objectivity. Steve needs to drop by to remind everyone he still trolls.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/8/2014 02:34:33 am

LOL …

I guess it IS true that "Everybody needs a hobby …"

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Sean
5/28/2014 04:11:02 am

A small correction about Frank Collins' biography. You write that he lost his Nazi leadership position due to the relevations about his father being Jewish, buit this isn't quite right. It was in the wake of these revelations that he left the National Socialist White People's Party (then the biggest openly Nazi party in the US), but he insisted they weren't true, and it was after this that he formed the splinter party he became leader of - the National Socialist Party of America. This was the party involved in the legal case about the march on Skokie.

Collin maintained his position as leader of the NSPA despite the NSWPP trying to undermine him by talking about his Jewish heritage in far-right magazines. He left only after being arrested for paedophilia.

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Jason Colavito link
5/28/2014 07:11:44 am

Thank you for the correction, Sean. I've updated the post above to reflect the correct information.

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Nickolaus A. Pacione link
7/12/2014 05:54:21 am

I wrote a story set in the aftermath of Frank Collin; I went up to Skokie in 2006-2007 wondering what kind of pedophile faggot would go around wearing a Nazi-Uniform. I normally don't share my blog on the social network I hang out at but I think this allows you to illustrate what you say of this human cockroach. Fringe History as a Conservative appeals to me -- the darker side of history man. I shared this on my facebook.com page as Rockaway Township has a situation on their hands that I am going to unleash Skokie Level controversy on them. Jason are you from Chicago? The only other person who speaks of Joseph Collin in this light are those who grew up around Chicagoland and in my leading into Legend Keeper I said to Joseph Collin to stay out of Chicago if you're going to wear that fucking Nazi Uniform because I would use Krav Maga to kick his ass.

Reply
Think
1/5/2015 03:29:25 am

First of all, someone's socio-political views, no matter how twisted, don't make their research any less valid.

Second, it would seem more than a small reach that a White supremacist would write a book about Africans having traveled to the "New World" before Columbus.

People do change.

Reply
Blue Wren
4/29/2015 02:22:40 pm

Birds of a feather
Fly together.

Reply
Kevin
7/18/2015 03:11:46 pm

Why does it matter that Frank Joseph/Collins was once a Nazi? Except that it's generally uncouth to be racist or supremacist, what bearing does it have on the subject of ancient America?
For those who say it's a continuation of his white supremacist ideology, how can that be so if he believes that there were black "gods" in America at one point?
Also, what does any of this have to do with the evidence that supports the idea that *someone* (or even several different peoples) was here before the native americans/indians? It's not like he made it up. There is an abundance of evidence, including bodies, of "giant" red and blond-haired people living in America. There's also plenty of evidence that there were black people in north and south america--long enough ago that no one knows for sure when they got here.

Reply
Richard Flavin link
7/22/2015 04:25:04 pm

Do you understand the scientific method? Do you understand this CREEP remains a CREEP? Right, denial is not just a river in Egypt... I will PERSONALLY answer ALL your statements defending Frank Collin.
Regards,
Richard Flavin
Flavin's Corner:
www.flavinscorner.com
rick@flavinscorner.com
twistory@gmail.com

And, of course, please soil yourself....

Reply
Theodora
4/11/2016 10:36:22 am

Flavin, you are the most hateful person on the internet. You say "I hate those who hate"....Mmm..see the problem? You truly believe you are imbued with some kind of moral superiority, Typical leftist moron educated beyond his (low) IQ.. Crawl back into your mom's basement. And shut the F... up.

GDA
7/29/2015 07:09:00 am

Jason, Thank you for investing your time in enlightening those who are interested. I've recently stumbled upon the work of Frank Joseph/Frank Calvin. I understand that morally he has a questionable past.

As far as his work, have you found that it is part or in whole false? Also, is your objective in posting this particular information, to simply let Mr. Joseph/Calvin's pat known, or to discredit him? Or to identify that he hasn't changed and still adheres to Nazi beliefs and is still a pedophile?

Thanks for your help. I look forward to your reply.

Reply
BillyBob
8/26/2015 04:03:29 am

Sounds to me like someone as influential as Scott Wolter should take a stand and denounce the racist and Nazi ideals that he otherwise is implicit in supporting by acting in cohort with Frank Joseph (Collins.)

Reply
Richard Flavin link
4/11/2016 12:22:58 pm


Theodora
4/11/2016 10:36:22

Flavin, you are the most hateful person on the internet. You say "I hate those who hate"....Mmm..see the problem? You truly believe you are imbued with some kind of moral superiority, Typical leftist moron educated beyond his (low) IQ.. Crawl back into your mom's basement. And shut the F... up.

Ah, "Theodora," thanks for sharing your opinion...
Regards,
Rick

Reply
Randy Claywell
7/22/2016 04:00:32 pm

I did research and you are correct about the political and criminal history of Frank Joseph. Unfortunately, that seems to be where your truth, partial (carefully selected) information is a lie. How does his being a ex Nazi pedophile make everything he proposes, especially if he provides the evidence as to how he came to his conclusions, if you disagree with him then verify that his evidence supports or does not support. That is actual, open minded scholarship. But, I see that you condemn with two faced inuendo. If Harry Hubbard was so morally despicable by accepting payment for being a guest editor, where does it say that guest equates with unpaid, if he committed a moral offense by being paid as a "guest editor" then by your character attack ALL of the many, many Democrats who get tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars for each appearance as a "guest speaker ". Where is your outrage at this, according to your words, perfidy.

Reply
Pete
2/24/2017 12:48:54 pm

Wow, George Noory never mentioned any of this shady background when he had Frank Joseph as a guest on Coast to Coast A.M. I bought his book about ancient America after listening to that interview. If I'd known he was a child molester I definitely would not have bought this book!

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