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George Knapp: Christian Fundamentalists in the Pentagon Shut Down Government Paranormal and UFO Probes Due to Demon Fears

10/17/2018

48 Comments

 
Picture
​This week, a number of websites wrote about the anniversary of the announcement of Tom DeLonge’s To the Stars Academy of Arts and Science, and many of them have presented the company’s $37 million operating deficit from its recent SEC filing as a revelation. If you subscribe to my newsletter, you knew about this weeks ago because I know to how to check public records. The company ran a deficit of $37 million and had brought in less than $2 million in stock sales against the $50 million they had hoped to take in. They had less than $130,000 in cash. While deficits are expected for startups, To the Stars doesn’t seem to have a clear revenue stream for making a profit, especially given the company’s massive (though mostly notional) $29 million in executive compensation packages, largely in stock and stock options. 
​According to the company’s semiannual report, they plan to make back the money by monetizing their search for extraterrestrial metals. They are currently paying their own executive Hal Puthoff $35,000 to analyze “reliable” reports of UFO scrap metal at Puthoff’s other company, Earth Tech. But they say in their SEC filing that, basically, they can only really make money by taking on debt or selling more stock. 
 
In related news, since To the Stars is close cousins to the rest of the Robert Bigelow Extended Multimedia UFO Universe, with whom it shares characters and plot lines, regular readers will remember that the recent Hunt for the Skinwalker documentary drew heavily on videos shot by Las Vegas journalist George Knapp. In September Knapp gave an interview about this to Open Minds, which published a transcript yesterday. The PR firm representing Hunt for the Skinwalker offered me an interview with Knapp, which I accepted. Knapp, however, declined to speak to me and has done only friendly interviews, avoiding skeptics and challenges to the Skinwalker narrative.
 
One of the criticisms I have had of Knapp is that he seems to have acted unethically, prioritizing his close relationship with billionaire UFO nut Robert Bigelow, the owner of Skinwalker Ranch until 2016, over the public that as a journalist he is supposed to serve. Why, for example, did he not report what he knew about Skinwalker Ranch (or thought he knew, I guess) for decades? “Well, first and foremost, I made a promise to him. I know there are other journalists who operate differently, but look, this was a long-term study; there was no hurry, there was no reason to sprint,” Knapp told Open Minds’ Alejandro Rojas. He repeated the same thing a bit later: “I mean, as journalists, we have to sort of figure out whether we’re crossing a line. I never felt I crossed the line because the promise I had made, I kept and I never revealed information. I knew someday I’d be able to record it and I wasn’t in a hurry because this was a long-term study, a long-term project.” That rubs me the wrong way. Imagine supposedly knowing that a portal to another dimension exists in a certain place and deciding it wasn’t worth reporting and there was no hurry about it. Imagine agreeing to hide facts that you supposedly know for twenty years, distorting all your other UFO reports by omitting key information known to you. Is there any other field where this kind of excuse would fly?
 
Knapp makes some laughable claims in the interview. For example, when he relates how Bigelow’s men gave up their investigation when they failed to turn up evidence of the paranormal, look at how he frames it: “So, the activity had gone underground, there wasn’t enough for the team to do, there weren’t enough paranormal incidents, so basically, they gave up. I mean, the phenomena had made it clear that it was not going to cooperate; it destroyed some cameras, it was just not playing ball.” So how did it destroy the cameras? Wasn’t this “paranormal activity” that could be studied? Apparently not. And why not? Most likely because there wasn’t anything but a bunch of frightened idiots scaring themselves in the dark. Along the way, Knapp also confirms that he secretly shared information about UFOs with then-senator Harry Reid to feed Reid’s interest in flying saucers. This confirms earlier reporting that Reid helped establish the Pentagon’s UFO research program, which contracted with Bigelow, after Knapp helped facilitate communication between Reid and Bigelow about UFOs.
 
But the most important part of the interview came when Knapp spoke of how the Defense Intelligence Agency read the book about the Skinwalker Ranch that Knapp wrote at the behest of Bigelow and decided that it was important for government research into the paranormal. It’s important enough to quote at greater length than I would usually provide:
And then, in 2007, a guy from the DIA reached out to Bob Bigelow and said, “I just read this book about The Skinwalker Ranch, I’m really interested in it, can I go?” And Bob Bigelow said, “Yeah. Fly to Las Vegas, I’ll take you out there.” They did. The guy sort of got the idea that what is associated with UFOs might actually be a much broader perspective of paranormal phenomena, that UFOs are not an end to themselves, that it represents the tip of the iceberg, and he wanted to take a look. And he wasn’t there for five minutes, then he had an experience. [...] And this thing appeared inside the house, in broad daylight, and I’m not going to get into details about what it was, but it was pretty distinct and remarkable and it made a very big impression on this guy.
 
So, he leaves, he tells Bigelow about it later, and he goes back to Washington, and he looks up Harry Reid, who at the time was the senate majority leader. They had some interactions on national security issues already, told him about that experience, and said, “We need to study this. That place is unique.” And Reid went to some of his colleagues, the story that I’ve told on air a couple of times, some of his colleagues in the senate. He made the argument that UFOs deserve to be studied and there could be direct national security implications, that by ignoring them it didn’t go make them go away, it just made them more enigmatic and they agreed.
 
So, they set up a program that, initially, was AWSAP. It was separate from AATIP, the program that [Luis] Elizondo was involved with. He wasn’t involved with actually for another year, but AATIP was the study, the occasional encounters that military personnel had with UFOs; that was an informal organization that existed within the Pentagon, different departments and different divisions of the military. And they would exchange information, videos would come in, they do analysis, and create files, and try to figure the stuff out. AWSAP was created to be something else entirely. It was to look at a broader range of paranormal activity. The DIA guy, and Bob Bigelow, and Colm Kelleher, and everyone associated with NIDS knew that UFOs do in fact occur in connection with other strange stuff; that as much as ufologists don’t like to admit it, there is a Bigfoot connection, and there is a crop circle connection, and there is a connection to animal mutilations. It’s not clear what the connections were other than proximity in the same time in place of all those different phenomena. And here, you had a ranch where all of this stuff was going on, and in that ranch, whatever is there, had in essence, given that guy from the DIA an engraved invitation to come back and he did.
 
And so, the study was launched. Harry Reid secured the funding. They put out bids on the military websites where other contractors to submit bids. I only know of one other entity that tried to compete for the contract. Bigelow created BAASS, that’s Bigelow Advanced Aerospace Systems; and that was a separate organization within Bigelow Aerospace that got the contract and launched the study, and it’s an amazing study. A big part of the focus was the ranch; that’s not the only part of the focus, I mean, they cast a very wide net and teams collecting information from all over the world; from foreign government. They had teams that were zipping around, as you mentioned earlier in the program, they arranged to have an arrangement with MUFON, and I’m sure they’ve had arrangements with other UFO organizations and researchers as well. 
​For the moment, we have only Knapp’s word for it, but what he reports is startlingly similar to what Nick Redfern reported in his discussion of the so-called Collins Elite, and it is similar, too, to what Jacques Vallée describes in his Forbidden Science, namely that some members of the military and the intelligence community, having absorbed a great deal of fringe literature—Vallée was aghast to discover that officials were using his Passport to Magonia as a research source, since he knew exactly how little he actually knew about the subject!—have used their positions to push for government-funded research into the paranormal. According to Knapp, they are opposed by Christian fundamentalists in the Evangelical-dominated military hierarchy: “they’re basically high-level people in different intelligence agencies who are fundamentalist Christians; who think that anything involving UFOs and the paranormal is satanic, that by studying it we invite Satan into this world, and they wanted it killed for those reasons.” Knapp claims that the Evangelicals convinced the Pentagon to end funding for occult studies.
 
That was one of the saddest sentences I’ve ever written. But the funny thing is that I don’t really doubt it. Paranormal enthusiasts and Christian demonologists almost certainly exist in the Pentagon ranks, and they probably exert more power than anyone would like to admit, though likely not in any formal way. How many times, for example, have we seen stories about Evangelical extremism in the Air Force? But that doesn’t make their beliefs true, any more than the government’s long-ago belief that Native American mounds were the work of a lost white race could make that lie true.
 
It’s hard to know whom to root for when Godzilla and Mothra are fighting. No good comes out of Evangelicals worrying that the government is tempting Satan, and no good comes from New Age zanies wasting taxpayer money chasing poltergeists and dimensional portals across the desert.
 
Rojas declined to push Knapp on the claims, or to demand specifics. Instead, he simply accepted the story with a “Wow.” No wonder Knapp didn’t want to tell his story to me. I would have questions.
48 Comments
Nick Redfern
10/17/2018 10:41:45 am

Yep, that's basically the same story told to me back in 2007/2008 for my 2010 book, "Final Events." Namely, that many of the people were religious extremists (evangelical) and were convinced that the UFO phenomenon was literally demonic.

Personally, I don't believe aliens are demons, but the fact that there was a group in the Govt which believed all this made it a very intriguing story to tell.

It doesn't surprise me that DIA people read the Skinwalker book, as I pointed out in "Final Events" that the group regularly got their info directly from books.

The books I mention in "Final Events" that were read by the group include: Linda Howe's "Glimpses of Other Realities, Vol. 1," John Deacon and John Walker’s "Dialogical Discourses of Spirits and Devils..." and R. Campbell Thompson’s "The Devils and Evil Spirits of Babylonia." Also, Budd Hopkins' "Missing Time." One book they considered to be very important was David Bohm's "Wholeness and the Implicate Order."

Much of their data/beliefs came from studying books such those above.

Reply
Jockobadger
10/17/2018 12:05:12 pm

Hi Jason,

Thank you for the write-up. I read it with interest, like I do with most of your work. Now I'm sitting here in my office trying to decide how to respond, or if I even should. But wth, I come here to read this stuff, so why not jump in and "take what I got comin'!" Sorry this is poorly written - have to dash it off while ostensibly working:

Jason, the crowd here on your blog, whose writing I enjoy so much, doesn't know me at all and neither do you. But fwiw, I'm a reasonably well-educated, mostly rational professional geologist and engineer. I do my work using proven methods and evidence in order to arrive at sound responses/solutions. However, for whatever reason, I have always been interested by reports of ufos. I recall my Mom telling me about flying saucers when I was a kid and wondering if they could be real. Naturally, as I aged and became (somewhat) more educated, I also became convinced that it was all either a giant hoax or it was simple misidentification, but my interest never entirely died.

About 10 years ago, I observed an object that might be the twin of the "tic-tac" that was reported by the Nimitz folks. Same appearance, same weird behavior/velocity as reported by Fravor, etc. It was close enough and atmospheric conditions were good enough that I could see it without any doubt as to what I was seeing. It also seemed to be silent - at least I couldn't hear anything. I have been troubled by it ever since and needless to say I was interested when I read the description of the Nimitz tic-tac.

So, here I am, a sober, mostly responsible husband, dad, and scientist who's witnessed a tin-foil-hat object. I've tried to forget it, but can't. For obvious reasons I have only mentioned it to a couple of close professional colleagues. One laughed and told me to put the pipe down, but the other guy listened and then related his own story which was not dissimilar. I just don't discuss it anymore.


I don't know what to do with the often insulting remarks of people I would otherwise respect. They breezily dismiss what appear to be well-documented incidents (including some with multiple witnesses and ground/air-based radar detection and tracking) as drones, helis, balloons, gas, planets, etc., etc. Well, I use light aircraft and drones a lot in my work and I live in an active airfield community. What I saw was not ANY of the usual suspects. Further, very few of these commentators, if any, have had an "experience" of their own. Given that, I would think they'd be more careful about dispensing criticism. The so-called "debunkers" usually dismiss reports by seemingly reliable people as misidentification of mundane objects, or celestial events, or possibly, as "secret" military gear. As for the first two, what I saw was not mundane, nor was it celestial (other than it was, in fact, in the sky.) I suppose it could be a secret military dealy-bob, but if so, it means they've conquered gravity and all that entails! I've read the smug assertions that military tech is "30 to 50 years ahead of what's being used right now...." That may be true, but gravity? Gravity? Zero inertia? C'mon man.


I grant that there are an enormous number of hoaxers, liars and charlatans out there, particularly in the webosphere, who poison the well for people like me. But there is also that small fraction of the population who aren't lying, hallucinating, or eye-sight challenged. I've seen something that exhibits behavior that is completely inexplicable, at least by what I believe to be current standards.


I know that the TTSA folks hint that these things are alien. They tip toe around it, but that's what they imply. I'm agnostic on it - I don't know what the f-ck they are or where they're from, but I'm convinced that what I saw wasn't built by the military. I'm further convinced that the military/government doesn't know much more than I do. Given that, I'm not surprised that at least some of them are worried about demons, satan, blah, blah, blah. That's incredibly dangerous in my view. Anyway, it appears to me that there's something very odd going on and I'd like some answers.


Jason, with respect to your final sentence "I would have questions" - please throw a couple of hypotheticals out there, just for fun. The rest of you.....go ahead, I can take it.


Badger

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gdave
10/17/2018 01:39:44 pm

@Badger,

I'm not going to try to "debunk" your experience, but I will point out a few issues, which are quite common to these sorts of reports.

1) No offense, but you're Some Guy on the Internet. Skeptics will often tiptoe around this, but, frankly, you could be lying.

2) Even assuming good faith, that you're truthfully reporting what you remember seeing to the best of your abilities, there's still not much to say, because we don't have any objective, verifiable evidence. Eyewitness testimony to UFOs just aren't very useful or meaningful. Because,

3) Humans are fallible. Human perception, cognition, and memory are all fallible.

3a) What you remember now, as you type your comment, of what you saw then, when you had your encounter, almost certainly doesn't actually exactly match what you actually saw and experienced at the time. Human memory isn't a lossless digital recording - it's an active reconstruction, a narrative that we tell ourselves. It's influenced by our moods, our desires, our dreams, other memories of actual events, even memories of other stories that we have heard or read.

3b) Even assuming your memory is inhumanly accurate and complete, we still don't have very much to go on. Human perception and cognition are fallible. Even very familiar objects can seem entirely alien when viewed in unfamiliar circumstances.* It's also impossible to simultaneously estimate an unknown object's speed, distance, and size just by looking at it. And with no reference points in the sky, there's just no way to estimate its size, or its distance other than, maybe, further away than an object in your visual foreground.

3c) Humans are also vulnerable to optical illusions, misperceptions, and, yes, on occasion, hallucinations. You say, definitively, that you didn't hallucinate the object you saw. But how would you know if you did? Perfectly ordinary people, with no mental illness, on occasion may experience visual and auditory hallucinations.

So, what did you see? *shrug* At this remove, from the information you've given, there's just no way to know. It could have been a genuinely anomalous object. It could also have been a perfectly mundane, familiar object, or set of objects, or weather phenomenon, filtered through fallible perception and memory.

*My own UFO experience: I was driving down a street, in broad daylight, when I saw a brightly shining object, just hanging in mid-air over the city. It changed shape as I looked at it. It clearly wasn't an airplane or helicopter or balloon or anything else I could identify. I couldn't imagine what it could be. After watching it for a while, I suddenly realized what I was seeing. It was an airliner, on a steep take-off angle, the sun shining off of its body, flying almost directly at me, but slowly angling/turning up and off to the side.

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Jockobadger
10/18/2018 01:39:34 pm

GDave - Thanks for the reply and honestly, there's not much I can write in response to your thoughtful comments - with the exception of No.1. I'm definitely NOT lying! Ha! But, as you rightly point out, I AM just a guy on the internet.


I like this one - seen it a few times: I know what I saw, damnit!

…..or what I hallucinated without realizing it. I'm pretty sure this isn't the case, but.....could be, I guess. My younger son was with me and saw it as well but he was only 7 (maybe 8, not sure) and he recalls seeing it, but has no clear memory of it. Darn.

gdave
10/19/2018 10:13:09 am

@Badger,

Here we have a perfect illustration of the fallibility of human memory and the problems with eyewitness testimony.

You apparently have a very clear memory of seeing a UFO - but your memory of when you saw it is hazy. It was about 10 years ago, when your son was 8 - or 9. Is it possible that your memory of what you saw is actually equally hazy, but only seems clear because you've mentally rehearsed it, over and over again? Each time you "recall" a memory, you are actively re-constructing it, possibly conflating the real events you witnessed at the time with other memories, dreams, fantasies, and even stories of other UFO encounters.

Did you record details immediately after the encounter? If not, it's impossible to rule out the possibility that what you saw at the time didn't actually match up very well with the "Nimitz Tic-Tac", but that your reconstructions of your memory of your encounter was influenced by your memory of the "Nimitz Tic-Tac" story.

And you say your son also saw the object, but doesn't have a clear memory of it. Again, at the time, did he record what he saw? Did you record what he said about what he saw? Without contemporaneous evidence, it's impossible to rule out the possibility that your son didn't actually even see the object, but remembers seeing it because he's heard you talk about it, and heard you talk about how he was there at the time, and even heard you talk about his memories of it. There's a *very* strong emotional driver for him to reconstruct a memory that aligns with what his father believes and expects him to remember.

Now, all of that doesn't rule out the possibility that you and your son really witnessed a genuinely anomalous object or phenomenon. But, as GEACK points out, there's no good reason to jump to the conclusion that you saw a gnome.

AmericanCool"disco"Dan
10/20/2018 07:46:51 pm

I had a UFO sighting about 30 years ago. It was definitely unidentified. I spoke about it recently with my friend who was there. He thought there was a third person there, a friend of ours, but that wasn't possible because we had ridden to the site on my motorcycle. Memory, all alone in the moonlight...

Juan Gonzalez
10/21/2018 05:09:17 pm

The Bible does not hide the fact that a dimension beyond this one exists. A Rebel got infatuated with his attributes which gave him a big Ego. Man was created whom God crowned His "Greatest creation". Nothing changed the quest for power still has it's allure. And anything or anyone in the way of that power...is "open season"

Great site..keep up your charge..guard the Vault..

Geack
10/17/2018 02:07:30 pm

Badger,

It's difficult to apply to your own experience the same level of rigor you bring to your scientific work, but it's necessary. Right now the only knowns about your experience are that you saw something you can't explain, and that you currently interpret what you saw as conforming to an existing description of UFO activity.

You're a geologist, so consider an analogy: Imagine you found traces of an exotic mineral in a place where that mineral, geologically speaking, should not exist. The locals tell stories about gnomes that burrow into the hills and bury treasure. Would you therefore accept "gnomes" as the most likely explanation? Of course not. Even though there are gnome stories similar to yours from all over the world, and even some leprechaun sightings that line up nicely with what you've found, you would never think "gnomes did this" because there is exactly zero independent evidence suggesting that gnomes even exist. Something has to exist before it can be accepted as an explanation. You as a geologist can think of a dozen explanations for your mystery mineral, no matter how ludicrously unlikely they are, that are nonetheless overwhelmingly more likely than gnomes.

That's where we're at with extraterrestrial or occult explanations for UFOs. You aren't nuts, and you aren't stupid, and you might even be remembering it all accurately. But you're leaping to the least likely of all possible explanations, because it would be really cool to meet a gnome.

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Jockobadger
10/18/2018 02:08:11 pm

Great post, Geack! Excellent analogy and absolutely on-target. It's why I enjoy this blog and particularly the comments section. I guess the only comment I have revolves around the raw numbers of gnomes being seen and the apparent reliability of fellow geologists that are seeing them. Are we all nuts? Or hallucinating without realizing it as noted above by GDAVE? It's entirely possible. I sure hope it wasn't a hallucination.


Anyway, I KNOW it sounds crazy if you haven't seen the damned Gnome! Thanks much! Badger

V
10/18/2018 01:17:12 pm

Unless you actually caught it and touched it, you can't actually say for sure that "it wasn't ANY of the usual suspects," with scientific rigor the most you can say is that you could not IDENTIFY it as any of the usual suspects. You should know this.

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Jockobadger
10/18/2018 02:10:08 pm

Touche

George A. Custer
10/17/2018 12:32:10 pm

"Men, remember, as we ride into battle here at the Little Big Horn, no prisoners. We have the Indians surrounded."

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Shane Sullivan
10/17/2018 01:12:29 pm

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the story of how Delta Green was shut down.

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Joseph Legander
10/18/2018 01:55:19 pm

Ten points for Hufflepuff, sir!

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AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/17/2018 06:23:20 pm

"One of the criticisms I have had of Knapp is that he seems to have acted unethically, prioritizing his close relationship with billionaire UFO nut Robert Bigelow, the owner of Skinwalker Ranch until 2016, over the public that as a journalist he is supposed to serve."

No different in that regard from Paley, Sulzberger, Luce, Graham now Bezos, Mike Wallace, Bob Woodward....

Always remember and never forget that To The Stars is always and only a scam to provide Tom DeLonge with "money for nothing".

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Jockobadger
10/18/2018 01:55:13 pm

"No different in that regard from Paley, Sulzberger, Luce, Graham now Bezos, Mike Wallace, Bob Woodward...."


- and virtually every allied journalist during WWII.

Always remember and never forget that To The Stars is always and only a scam to provide Tom DeLonge with "money for nothing".


I've wondered a good deal about this Dan, but I just don't believe it's ONLY about the money. Delonge's history, his music, interviews, tweets, etc., all suggest that he's a true believer - the real McCoy. Why go to all the trouble? If it's really just about the $, Tom could just plop some of his dough in an index fund and not worry about it. Now, it's possible, even probable, that he was used by others....not sure to what end yet.....but even that doesn't make much sense (to me.) I'm content to see what happens, but I fear it won't be much. Hope I'm wrong - and I hope you're wrong, too! Badger

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AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/18/2018 09:12:24 pm

a. DeLonge luvvvs to fool and make fun of the rubes;

b. The one and only thing, the sole thing TTSA is committed to do, is pay DeLonge a couple hundred thousand dollars a year.

Dan
10/21/2018 08:11:52 pm

Where did we put the lighter?

I can’t find it.

William Fitzgerald
10/18/2018 08:42:28 am

"That was one of the saddest sentences I’ve ever written. But the funny thing is that I don’t really doubt it. Paranormal enthusiasts and Christian demonologists almost certainly exist in the Pentagon ranks, and they probably exert more power than anyone would like to admit, though likely not in any formal way."

There is no doubt that there are Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians in the military (although that is certainly not the same as "Christian demonologists" whatever that is exactly). The military is a reflection of our society which includes Evangelicals and other Christians; and no atheists in foxholes (of course that is not exactly true, but, I suspect certainly many more Christians than atheists as compared to society as a whole). The military also tends to attracts (and foster) people inclined to be conservative which itself fits pretty well with many Christian mindsets. Therefore, yes the military does have a lot of Christians including Evangelicals, Fundamentals and unconventional. However, it is a bit of a leap, especially without evidence, that the military in general and especially senior military leaders (who actually tend to be more liberal, very well educated, highly grounded and evidence based people) would be "demonologists." I would also be very skeptical that the Air Force in particular would have "Christian demonologists." You are more likely to find non-conventional Christians in other branches and even so probably not a whole lot of "demonologists" and even if these people exist in the military, I doubt in large numbers especially in higher ranks.

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V
10/18/2018 01:00:23 pm

William, I believe that Jason meant that there are almost certainly Evangelical and Fundamentalist military members in positions of power who use that power to further the aims of their religious views--possibly even with the purest of intentions. Evangelicals in particular are highly likely to be demonologists--since "demonology" is "the study of demons" and devils and demons play a larger role in the Evangelical viewpoint than, say, Baptist ways. In other words, a "Christian demonologist" is any Christian, from any sect, who thinks demons should be studied. Not the same thing as Evangelical or Fundamentalist, but not mutually exclusive, either. If some Evangelical three-star general sincerely believes that demons are a threat to American society and that the problem needs to be studied for a solution, isn't he, in his own mind, negligent if he DOESN'T use his position to urge this research? What's sad is that the general actually BELIEVES this, really.

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Jockobadger
10/18/2018 02:34:14 pm

V - I understand your point about negligence on the part of our general if he and his minions don't study the demons. Makes perfect sense. Trump should immediately demand that "His" generals get busy and find out what (if anything) is going on here!

Aren't Knapp et al., suggesting that the general would rather bury his head in the sand because to do otherwise would risk letting slip the demons, magical wolves, sinister blobs of war, etc., into this already sin-filled world?

Dumb move in my view, but certainly not unprecedented.

William Fitzgerald
10/19/2018 02:39:26 am

Have you met many three-star generals? I am not saying Fundamentalist or Evangelist generals can't or don't exist. But, to get to the position they are in, most senior officers are highly educated, very smart people who are well grounded and evidence based in their outlook. They also tend to be politicians who would be very hesitant to pin their star on someone who is a professed demonologist. Now, it is more than possible that closeted demonologists exists in the higher ranks and that could certainly affect their outlook, I believe they probably would not last long unless they can separate their military thinking from their personal beliefs, hard to do. At any rate if a cabal of demonologist exists in the Pentagon and are using their influence to affect military policy in that direction, the Washington Post would have a field day and we would know about it by now.

John
10/19/2018 07:33:40 pm

Evangelical Christians are very active at the Air Force Academy. Google Mikey Weinstein and the freedom from religion foundation.

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Double Down
10/18/2018 01:33:54 pm

Zanies and ufo nuts...despite the military evidence that proves there is something to all this, Jason continues his uneducated bullying and "look at me being a contrarian calling everyone out", yet he debates no one. The spirit of Phil Klass lives on with Jason...label them and dismiss them and promote yourself as the bad guy for attention.

Get out there and debate and put your keyboard back in its holster. You want attention, you want to save the world?..then get up on the stage and let's see you dance.

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Americancool"Disco"Dan
10/18/2018 09:22:52 pm

You seem to be saying "Live your life the way I want you to."

Noted nutcases Nick Redfern, Ashley Cowie, Chief Grondine, and Bob "Gunn Sinclair" Voyles have posted here regularly. That's plenty of debate in my view.

I look forward to your calling on Scott Wolter and Giorgio Tsoukalos to debate. Let us know how that works out.

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Americancool"Disco"dan
10/18/2018 11:01:01 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention that now you're on the hook to provide citations for "the military evidence that proves there is something to all this" that you asserted. Debate, bitch!

Double Down
10/19/2018 09:09:10 pm

Jason can do his own talking right? What I seem to say appears to be whatever you want it to be, what I mean is what I said. I don't think we need cable TV producers deciding who are experts are...unless you want Joe Nickell and James McGaha up there also for a second rate circus. The ufo field has rational and skeptical researchers that aren't in the limelight or writing blogs trying to make a name for themselves. There are military witnesses past and present, old and new previously classified documents. That doesn't mean everything is alien but apparently those who did deal with some of this, think it might be.

Jason is doing the labeling, I just want to see him do it face to face, let's see him get in the octagon and fight, not the at a distance name calling pre-bout hype. I'm sure he would love the attention.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/19/2018 11:20:06 pm

You've managed to combine faggotry with putrefaction in a bilious cloud of nonsense.

Have Wolter or Tsoukalos gotten back to you yet?

bezalel
10/19/2018 12:51:37 am

Yeah, Double Down

If indeed there is military evidence to suggest there is "something to all this", then what "all this is" is.........
MILITARY

What Bezalel continues to find depressingly common is that people without science education have terribly inadequate imaginations.

So it's time for Bezalel's Tease

Einstein conquered gravity from the standpoint of theoretical physics 100 years ago. We have had at least 50 years to develop that theory, experiment, blow things up, break things and make things fly. Without getting into why Quantum Mechanics is required, and Feynman's QED, Dirac's antiparticles, plasmas and anon, let's just begin a little sophomoric thought experiment, shall we?

Suppose we take a bit of matter and generate enough energy to remove the electrons from that matter. What happens? Your high school physics tells you first that the center of the atoms in that matter has most of the mass and is separated from the electron field by a VAST amount: like "golf ball is the center and the electrons are 10 miles away" kind of distance. Do the math if you want, there's no space here.

The next step is to realize we have generated a VERY DENSE matter field (the neutrons and the protons), because now these neutrons and protons from all the atoms in the matter sample (say we have 2 or 3 "moles" of matter, get out your chemistry books) can come together, without any space between them.

Question: How many moles of (electron-free) matter do we need to generate a gravitational field equal to earth's surface gravity?

DO the math, it's not much. Maybe 10 "moles" depending. Can't even see it yet with a microscope. The reason why we can generate a relatively large g field with such a small amount of matter is because we have a very very very small sphere of matter when we remove the electron field. Can't do this even near the center of the earth (pretty dense) because the electrons prevent the overall density from getting too high Electron fields from each atom repel one another: remove the electrons and the nuclei come together.

It's not really that simple; much has been left out, especially Quantum Field Theory, but not the point folks

Now, go a little further and THINK. If we can suspend this matter above us (say suspend it within a strong magnetic field, neutrons have a measurable magnetic moment, pilgrims), and generate a field as strong as just 2g's, then any loose matter below it (rocks, people, internal organs, coffee, ships, whatever) will FALL UPWARD at the same rate it would normally fall down if dropped near earth's surface. Einstein 101.

And think further: the matter would not feel it was falling. This is Einstein's Equivalence Principle: one falling in a g field is weightless, no (very little) deleterious effects. All things would fall (again fall UP) at the same rate. Imagine what happens when we start controlling the amount of dense matter, increasing it.

What is Bezalel's point? That UFO's are in fact military aircraft? Experimental black projects? No
That aliens don't exist? No
That Bezalel has discovered something grand? Again, no!

Bezalel's point is that if ANYONE has created ships with fantastic properties, seemingly impossible maneuvering capabilities, super-performance, anti-gravity actions, etc, it is HUMANS who have done it. Humans that are geniuses, in privileged positions and in very secret places, yes.

We don't need aliens!!!

What is more likely? Secret human projects?
Or aliens run amok all over our planet?

We have had effing DECADES to look at this and the physics is really NOT that deep, and the one institution who would benefit most from secretly developing such craft (using our tax money), allowing the public (all members all over the world) to believe no one could possibly do this except aliens, it is the US Military.

Largest advantage in the world, greatest cover of all time.

Not saying this is all true...
Just please use your imagination. We can do better than ignoring Occam's Razor, ignoring the precept of requiring extraordinary evidence, to jump instantly to the "must be alien" conclusion (because we have no imagination).

There is NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE SO FAR PRESENTED that any of these UFO phenomena are anything other than terrestrial.

Period

Know Better Meatheads!





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AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/19/2018 04:30:31 am

You know that's all insanity, right?

bezalel
10/19/2018 07:24:09 am

Lock stock and barrel
You however, do NOT know whether it is insanity or not

Jockobadger
10/19/2018 11:21:52 am

Lieutenant! Engage the Quantum Field Generator! Let's show these flyboys what a Tic-Tac can REALLY DO!


Captain! If we hover for long the Quantum Field will disturb the ocean surface and give us away for certain!


Don't worry son, those dumb flyboys'll just think it's our Mothership!! Ha! Now PUNCH IT!

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/19/2018 03:01:29 pm

You are an incredible idiot. You are *speculating* about plasma, which has been well researched. A "mole" is "the amount or sample of a chemical substance that contains as many constitutive particles, e.g., atoms, molecules, ions, electrons, or photons, as there are atoms in 12 grams of carbon-12" (plagiarized from wikipedia) In other words a mole doesn't need a microscope.

"the physics is really NOT that deep"

Said Bezalel who CANNOT do the math.

bezalel
10/19/2018 07:59:42 pm

(laughs)
ACDD you are correct, a mole does not need a microscope, I misspoke there. A mole possesses 6 E23 particles (atoms, molecules), thus one mole of Carbon is 12 grams, or 32 grams of O2, or 28 grams of N2, etc. each possessing 6 E23 "particles".

Not the point, minutiae-boy. Much less than 6 E23 atoms (btw, "6 x 10 to the 23" is meant here) will generate 1g, provided electrons are removed from each of those atoms, and we are dealing with the nucleons potentially packing together.

Now be a good grad student rodent puke and do some real rudimentary math:

How much energy is required to remove the electrons from one atom of carbon, or O2, or N2? or pick an element. Will energy at one frequency suffice to ionize the atom? What's the radius of the nucleonic matter left over, assuming a cuboctahedral packing (for example, there are other patterns; icosahedrons, centered cubic structures, whatever) of say a billion atoms' worth of neutrons?

Based on the mass of above said nucleonic matter (billion atoms' worth) and its calculated radius, estimate the g force generated. Now use a billion billion atoms instead (still not one mole yet), what's the g force?

Once one gets to 2 g's, we have an interesting engineering problem involving gravitational lift.

Yes, plasma physics is "well" researched; plenty of texts and papers out there, it is NOT completely researched. We have only begun. Two-volume text by Ichimaru is good place to start. Beginners can skip the Quantum Field Theory here, but must eventually get to it. Text by Steven Weinberg is great intro (3 volumes)

Other questions: What temperature is necessary to stably contain those packed nucleons in a B Field? Can they be induced to pack uniformly in the first place?

Think no one has performed this research, Minutiae Boy?

The crazed Bezalel is tired of minutiae, and tired of lack of imagination.

The practical aspects of the above speculations may be a challenge, again not the point.

Humans can effing do this.
Aliens are unnecessary

3rd Vodka down











Double Down
10/19/2018 09:28:48 pm

You're wrong and everything is alien.
Ha
Of course humans are the likely answer, now you just need some witnesses and proof that you're correct, just like alien believers do. Yes we have had decades, so have the Russians, and Chinese, yet we all keep hiding it perfectly and we all apparently like to play nuclear roulette by infiltrating each other's bases just to have fun and scare each other by messing with those missiles. I don't disagree with you or the power of our physics, but the actions taken by "us" are insane if true. This world is doomed if our top global militaries have no qualms about pushing buttons on nukes from their top secret UFOs. I've heard far more ex military claim these are not ours than ours, including our Skunkworks buddies...but of course they want us to believe that ..right?

americancool"disco"dan
10/19/2018 11:26:01 pm

So, Bezalel, in his longwinded way, said he doesn't know physics and can't do calculus. Imagine my surprise.

bezalel
10/19/2018 11:37:33 pm

"....Of course humans are the likely answer, now you just need some witnesses and proof that you're correct, just like alien believers do..."

No, effing no

I do not need to prove the most likely hypothesis; the burden of proof lies with those making the extraordinary claims! This is basic science 101, and it apparently needs to be stated over and over and over again, because it just does not sink in. Most people think erroneously, like Wolter.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Let that roll off the tongue, pilgrim.

UFO's are NOT alien unless and until enough qualifying physical evidence arises. I would looooooove to see such evidence. So far: NADA, ZILCH, ZERO, NIL, NOTHING.

Note this does not mean that the "real truth" is that aliens are not here. It simply means that the attitude we adopt, as rational scientifically minded adults, is that we do not jump to the extraordinary claim (aliens are here) until a veritable boatload of qualifying evidence prevails. Who is qualified to determine whether or not data constitutes qualifying evidence?

You fill in the blank _____________***

That is how real knowledge evolves and expands.

A simple and effective philosophy.

Religious thinking is for those who don't know how to know.
Scientific thinking is for those who know how to TEST.

5th down


*** answer: those who spend 8 + years actually studying science, and actually PRACTICING science over ADDITIONAL years, decades.



bezalel
10/19/2018 11:57:27 pm

"Bezalel...said he doesn't know physics and can't do calculus."

Undergrad much?
Calculus is fucking irrelevant here, Avogadro is ruled by arithmetic

One does not use calculus to solve real physics problems.
One needs tensors and PDE's.

Lagrange
Hamilton
Feynman
Dirac

That aside, there are many who know physics better than I; a great many more who know it....

mmmmmmuch less better


Americancool"Disco"dan
10/20/2018 01:48:53 am

"One does not use calculus to solve real physics problems."

Let that be your epitaph, bitch.

SMFH.

If it were not illegal I would pay to have that person removed from society, because stupidity is not wholly genetic, it can be taught.

bezalel
10/20/2018 12:49:56 pm

Christ on toast
Calculus is undergrad. First rung on the ladder. If you want to see real math, take a peek at any text by Landau and Lifshitz, for one.

Get a degree, and re-learn everything you think you know

Then practice for a decade

Then your mealy-mouthed retorts will have weight

Americancool"Disco"dan
10/20/2018 08:03:29 pm

I have a degree in math, bitch. And I know better than to underrate calculus.

"One does not use calculus to solve real physics problems."

Let that be your epitaph, bitch.

SMFH.

Americancool"Disco"Dan
10/20/2018 11:36:08 pm

"Suppose we take a bit of matter and generate enough energy to remove the electrons from that matter. What happens? Your high school physics tells you...there's no space here.

The next step is to realize we have generated a VERY DENSE matter field (the neutrons and the protons), because now these neutrons and protons from all the atoms in the matter sample ...can come together, without any space between them."

What you're describing here, idiot, is plasma, and plasma is the exact opposite of dense. You don't know physics, you don't know math, you don't know shit. Your parents did a disservice by not smothering you in your crib.

bezalel
10/21/2018 10:09:58 pm

Let it go, son
I mean minutiae boy
Just because your math degree is wholly inadequate doesn't mean you wasted your time. It's just as far as you can go.

Calculus is fine for undergrad work; only the beginning, no need to be afraid what's ahead, son. Once you start practicing physics for real, using PDE's and tensors, you will do more math in 5 minutes than you used to in 2 days doing sophomore Calculus.

Can't believe you claim a degree in math and don't know what PDE's are. Did you cover Fourier Analysis at least?
Residue Theorem?
Schroedinger Equation?
Dirac Equation?
Hamilton/Lagrange?
Sturm-Liouville?
WTF you stopped at Calculus III?
Calculus <is> underrated, moron it's beneath all of those; man up or STFU

And suck at reading less OK? Plasma is not where you stop, you ignored the part about packing, among other things. You're not even a drunk grad student.

Further your degree before you speak again

Bitch

Dan
10/21/2018 10:28:25 pm

Best. Epithets. Ever.

Americancool"Disco"Dan
10/21/2018 11:53:04 pm

"Can't believe you claim a degree in math and don't know what PDE's are."

Take the cock out of your mouth before putting words in mine, bitch. Choosing not to engage doesn't mean "don't know". PDEs were undergrad in our program. You throw around a lot of names but I see no evidence you know math. And that's okay.

I'm not even a talented math guy; I had classmates who could math circles around me. But you talking shit is just you talking shit.

Ooooh, tensors, scary! It's just matrices, it's just notation. Chill, bitch.

Bezalel
10/22/2018 05:17:48 pm

Yeah, what I thought
We're done here

PDEs are undergrad
After calculus

You spend too much time going way off in the weeds

Point was:

Degree
Science
Imagination

Need all 3

Dunior
10/18/2018 04:59:15 pm

What? respectful debate with no personally demeaning comments? Proper thing. Great write up here by Jason and everyone else. Very interesting stuff.

Reply
Finn
10/19/2018 02:34:08 am

Mothra. Always back Mothra.

Reply

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