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Glenn Beck: Assyrians Became Germans and the Pilgrims Descended from the Israelites

8/9/2013

39 Comments

 
One of the reasons I’ve been picking on America Unearthed and its weird vision of an early America overrun with manly European knights in armor raping and pillaging their way across hill and dale is that this type of historical revisionism—which lacks any factual basis—has historically served as the entrepôt for racist, anti-Semitic, and xenophobic political ideologies. So naturally it should surprise no one that Glenn Beck supports these odd theories. A few years ago, he tried to rehabilitate the Bat Creek Stone, excited by Scott Wolter’s attempt to authenticate the alleged piece of prehistoric Hebrew writing. This week Beck went on a bizarre historical rant about the Bible and Jews that deserves a closer examination, both for its mind-boggling inaccuracies and its insight into the conspiratorial mindset of so many.

On Wednesday, Beck told his listeners that the Bible is the key to understanding history, which he accused Oprah Winfrey of purposely altering to deny Biblical truth. No, I have no idea what that means since I don’t keep up with Oprah’s theology. Instead, he offered an overview of Biblical history, saying this about the Assyrians:

Here’s what I find very fascinating on who they were. When they were finally defeated, they had all of these, this tribe of Israel as captives. But when they were finally defeated, the Assyrians and the Israelites, they fled, and they went north. And they fled out of captivity through the Caucasus Mountains. The Caucasus Mountains are where you hear the word Caucasian, the Caucasus Mountains.

Beck implies that white people are white because they came from God’s Chosen, which well-matches historical Mormon ideology, which originally held that God cursed sinful people with dark skin while rewarding the righteous with milky white hues (Alma 3:6-7; 4 Nephi 1:10; 2 Nephi 5, etc.). In 2010, the Mormon church revised portions of text to remove overt references to dark skin.

But listen to what Beck says next, an extremely strange version of genetic destiny:

What’s interesting is the Assyrians who were very good, meticulous record keepers, and who were just brutal, they settled in Italy and in the Germany area and the Russian area where Fascism comes from. But the Israelites, the lost ten tribes, they went north, and they started to scatter the other direction, and they went to the coastlines, generally in the area where our pilgrims came from.

Beck implies that the Assyrians invented oppression and have somehow kept the flame of tyranny in the interior of Europe for more than 2,500 years while the Jews somehow lived on the coasts (!) and became Christians and Puritans and Pilgrims and Americans. And neither ever moved or had a new idea again. Where does he get this stuff?

It’s a claim that comes from British Israelism, this belief that the Anglo-Saxons (and thus also white Americans) are the descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel. According to this theory, the Assyrians migrated to Germany, which they base on the strength of Pliny the Elder’s claim that a tribe called the Assyrani lived north of the Black Sea (Natural History 4.12 [Latin], 4.26 [English]) and the claim in the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax, which mistakenly claims that the Assyrians had conquered north of the Black Sea, probably because the Persians, who conquered the Assyrians, really did reach that far, and the conquests were projected backward.

Weirdly, the Assyrani are listed in the Latin text of Pliny, but the standard English translation gives their name as Lagyrani. So, since I don’t like leaving loose ends, I got out critical edition of Pliny, which records variants. According to the various critical editions, the manuscripts of Pliny list “Assyrani” at 4.12, but the parallel passage in Ptolemy (Geography 3.6) gives Lagyra, so the scholarly edition of Pliny has corrected this under the assumption that copyists misread or corrupted the original. (The Greek Λάγυρα could be mistaken for the Latin Assyra or Greek ’Ασσυρα with bad handwriting, I suppose, to the eyes of Greek-trained scholars, or maybe LAG looked like ASS to somebody.) This was proposed first by Pintianus in the 1500s. The English translators have followed this assumption.

There is no historical or archaeological evidence that the Assyrians ever traveled beyond the Caucasus. However, in the nineteenth century, John Wilson began to argue that all the Teutonic peoples were Lost Tribes on the evidence of their manly vigor and white skin. Wilson’s successor, Edward Hine (1825-1891), a bank clerk, argued that the Teutonic peoples were closely related to the Anglo-Saxons, yes, but only to the extent that they were the Assyrians to the British Israelites. It is Hine’s version of British Israelism that proved most influential among white supremacists in the United States, who hold to this very day that the “Jews” are “really” the Canaanites, who must be destroyed for the “true” Chosen People, white Anglo-Saxons, to flourish. The Worldwide Church of God has also adopted this Assyrian-German connection from Hine. It is this set of disturbing racist and anti-Semitic lies that Beck has adopted.

Beck then asserts that the Statue of Liberty is “really” Moses because she is crowned with light and holds tablets representing the Law, even though they are in the style of pagan Roman offering tablets to Venus.

There’s strong symbolism with the number 13 being represented everywhere, 13 arrows, 13 stripes, 13 stars, 13 olives, 13, 13, 13. Yeah, I know, well that’s the 13 colonies. […]Well, there’s only 12 tribes, Glenn. What do you do with 13? Hmm, except the tribe of Joseph split into Manasseh and Ephraim, and those were in northern Israel. That’s the northern Kingdom of Israel. That’s the 13 tribes. Okay, hogwash. That’s all garbage. Okay, you say that’s not what any of these symbols mean on this flag. Okay, that’s reasonable, okay.

Imagine if Maine had broken from Massachusetts earlier; Beck would be scrambling to try to explain how to make 14 colonies into ten tribes. But the real issue arises in this incoherent blathering:

The people of Jerusalem, we owe our existence in many ways. We owe our laws to them. Do you really think that we – I am a religious guy. Others who are not will think this is hogwash, but I don’t care anymore. I haven’t for some time. I’m stating who I am.

Notice the eliding of pseudo-fact and personal identity. Personal identity is constructed from historical fantasy, and an attack on the conspiracy at a factual level is by definition an attack on the core of one’s being, the nature of his humanity.

Beck wraps up with a maudlin appeal that the Bible must not be “thrown out” because, even if it is a lie, it’s the only thing standing between us and anarchy because, if I understand him correctly, he feels no one would behave civilly or peacefully except under threat of divine punishment.

I feel like I have to shake the shoulders of some of my friends and look ’em in the eye and say without the Torah, without the people of Judah, you have no law. Ours doesn’t exist. Our country doesn’t exist. Nothing exists. You get rid of the Torah, you get rid of the Bible, nothing works anymore. Then what are our laws based on? Opinion, man’s opinion. Oh, well that’s good.

American law descends from English common law, which was notably not based on the Bible but rather on the opinions—yes, opinions—of judges and jurists, who interpreted past precedent and adapted past practice and statutes to fit contemporary needs. This is in contradistinction to Continental law systems, which trace their origins to Roman law, again not based on the Bible. Somehow the Romans and the Greeks and the Imperial Chinese managed to run societies without the Mosaic Law for thousands of years, though I suppose one could argue they feared retribution from Pluto, Hades, or Yan. The early Romans, famously, didn’t care what faith a person followed so long as they paid their taxes, obeyed civil law, and made a token gesture toward Jupiter.

Christians also fail to agree on whether the Mosaic law (“the Torah”) applies to Christians. Thomas Aquinas argued that it did not, and the Catholic Church holds that parts of it apply while others have expired. Calvinists believe that only the laws repeated in the New Testament still apply, and the Anglicans disclaim all civil and ritual laws, preserving only the moral laws. Several fundamentalist groups claim that all of the Mosaic laws apply, though in practice they pick and choose among them. It sounds like the “law” has been on its way out since at least the early Middle Ages, and yet somehow we’re still here.

Beck’s final thoughts are a warning that without the Bible we must choose between Chinese-style “state capitalism” and Islamic sharia law as our “model” (a false dichotomy if ever there was one), so we must all teach our kids British Israelism…er, “biblical history”...to protect America. Beck complains that critics call him “Anti-Semitic,” and he wonders why. Well, it’s because he has aligned himself with pseudo-historical fantasies that were used in the past to support Anglo-Saxon claims to be the “true” Jews and to demand the extermination of the “false” Jews. While Beck holds that Anglo-Saxons are the Lost Tribes, he’s OK with the traditional Jews still being Jews. So in that sense he’s slightly ahead of traditional British Israelism. But it will all come to naught, for Jesus will soon return to turn all the Jews Christian anyway. And if Beck’s Mormon faith is right, that will happen in Missouri, which also housed the Garden of Eden.

39 Comments
Thane
8/9/2013 07:42:29 am

I won't comment on Beck directly as I believe his perspective on history (especially ancient and biblical history) are mostly informed by his Mormon faith. The one thing I will say is that I have seen and have listened to his programs and based on my experiences, I do not believe him to be racist. He is a social conservative and his foundation for that is his personal conversion, redemption in terms of how he lead his life, and his belief that before our culture coarsened, civil society was better off.

For the record, I do not share his take on biblical history and I am not a Mormon. As in politics, I am an independent in religion. I don't know if there is a God/gods and I don't worry about it. No emotional investment on part whether there is or not.

One thing I think that is important to discuss is the role of religion in the creation of the earliest societies. Religion (whether you believe in God or gods or in nothing) was/is the outgrowth of early man learning to live together. Spiritual belief provided the rational behind behaviors that allowed for peaceable relations between people dwelling together in close proximity. Religious rules/duties/dictates allowed everyone within the group (tribe/clan/settlement/etc...) know what the rules are and if the rules were followed, that community would have stability and stability is a key element for success of societies.

Man, being creative and always striving to understand more, embellished on the belief systems and (since man also tends to bureaucracy when not tearing things down to build something new) ultimately created formalized religions.

Conflict between peoples come when different belief systems come into contact and wherein resources are scarce. In times of prosperity and plenty, people feel they can be generous and forgiving of those that believe differently. When times are tight and competition high, tolerance tends to drop and conflict increases.

So, my point is, some people may deride religion and belittle people who believe in God/gods but religion did form our earliest "laws"....even English common law where precedence and practice evolved out of local traditions which evolved from local religious/spiritual belief.

It would be incorrect to say that the 10 Commandments and Judaic law didn't influence and inform the philosophical underpinnings of what ultimately became the Western civilization. Christianity, which did have a significant impact in the evolution of western society, did evolve from Judaism and was significantly influenced by it. It wasn't the only thing as each tribe and each of the different peoples added their own dominate cultures to the brew.....ultimately to create the dominate culture in Europe and in the Americas. (South America has a very narrowly focused seed from the Spain/Portugal heavy influx and therefore is similar but different from the dominate aspects of European culture that informed their norther neighbors.)

You can't separate society from the belief systems that formed them and you can't separate man from belief systems he created, in my opinion.

Reply
Thane
8/9/2013 07:49:14 am

I should also say for the record, I haven't heard the particular Beck segment that Jason references. I'll have to see if I can dig it up somewhere and give it a listen for as long as it takes for my head to explode.

I mention this because my post isn't about that Beck thing but just about the role of religion in the creation and maintenance/evolution of societies.

Societies are created by people and their mutually agreed upon (organic as there are no belief committees in most societies) beliefs and expectations. As such societies change over time as beliefs and expectations change.

Reply
Vin palmer
2/26/2018 01:07:06 am

Religion will always cause division. It's a necessary evil. Jason was incorrect about the caananites. It's kenites that are the half brothers of Able and seth. I do enjoy people who seek truth above all else. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law. These standards the bible or torah are necessary for a common standard of so called base in which mankind can coexist with a common base. I know we humans would like to believe we have all the answers, l think most people desire to have peace of mind. In the end whatever you believe study it so you invested in yourself. Stay well and enjoy your day.

Jason Colavito link
8/9/2013 07:51:50 am

Beck isn't a racist, but he uses racists' ideas. Of course the Bible influenced Western civilization, but in combination with Classical influences as well. Beck isn't just saying that the Bible is a spiritual source of influence but rather that it underlies current American law, which it just doesn't. How many of the Ten Commandments are actual civil laws? How many civil laws can be traced back to the Mosaic books? Beck argues that without the Bible there is NO law, but this is obviously false as there are other ways to organize laws; in Rome, it was through the Twelve Tables, created (theoretically) as a negotiation between the patricians and plebians, not by divine writ of Jupiter. Frankly, the Sharia law he opposes so fiercely is closer to blind adherence to divine writ than American civil law.

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Thane
8/9/2013 08:24:33 am

I think that most of the 10 Commandments are civil laws. The first 3 are specifically related to relations with the deity. The rest area related to interaction between people (i.e. civil)

I'll have to find the segment you reference but from my understanding, Beck is a believer that biblical law is the philosophical foundation of the law in the West. If that is the belief, it's not a far stretch to equate a disregard of The Bible as equivalent to throwing the baby out with the bath water. It is a long strand from here to there but the connection can be made even when you accept other influences.

Not all our Founders were Deists. Many were practicing Christians of one flavor or another and so brought that philosophical base to bear in how they approached the creation of our nation and our laws. This stands for even the most rationalist of them. Having said that, they were also informed by their study of the classics and in other contemporary and near contemporary thinkers. Christianity and the protestant emphasis on the bible and the a purer relationship with god, surely had a very heavy influence in what they proposed and would accept in society and law.

Now, as a matter of law, you are very correct. English common law was the foundation as we emerged from English colonies were English law was the law of he land and the law our founders and leaders were raised in. It worked well. There was very little reason to change it.

As you pointed out, "American law descends from English common law, which was notably not based on the Bible but rather on the opinions—yes, opinions—of judges and jurists, who interpreted past precedent and adapted past practice and statutes to fit contemporary needs." was complied over centuries....and in many of those centuries, the English were catholic/christian. Many a noble and influential jurist and faith leaders certainly influenced what English Common Law became with their opinions creating new precedent overturning old or creating new.

It, too, is a product of many influences, some of which is bound to be based on Christian thought......which can be linked back to the bible.

As you know, I am not arguing that English Common Law is religious law, Christian or anything other than an outgrowth of custom, precedence, and rationalism (once people like Black and others really started to codify it).

A fun exercise might be to figure out how things would be different if there had been no Bible that survived (or existed) and no Christianity. How different would it be? It would be different but wildly so? Maybe. Maybe not as other societies wold have laws that would be very close to the 10 commandments and biblical law to one degree or another.

Jason Colavito link
8/9/2013 10:54:46 am

The Glenn Beck excerpt is linked in the blog post above. The link is in the first paragraph. The 10 Commandments are only a small part of the Mosaic law, which does such things as ban mixed fabric and prescribe how best to enslave your neighbor. But in terms of the Commandments (and here I use the Catholic numbering system, which differs from Jewish and Protestant numbering), commandments 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, and 10 are not currently enforceable American civil laws, and 6 (adultery) is technically law but not enforced. Commandment 8 (lying) is only sometimes a law, and in America we have the right to lie except in court. That leaves just 5 (killing) and 7 (stealing), neither of which is unique to the Torah. In fact, when the other Commandments have been civil law, it is usually because preexisting civil law was made to conform to the Bible, not because the Bible gave us civil law.

Varika
8/9/2013 04:29:43 pm

"Religion (whether you believe in God or gods or in nothing) was/is the outgrowth of early man learning to live together. Spiritual belief provided the rational behind behaviors that allowed for peaceable relations between people dwelling together in close proximity."

No, I...really can't agree with this. First off, there is literally no way to prove that one way or another. Second off, my cats don't have religion, but they do have a system of behaviors for peaceable relations for dwelling together. The rationale is "we get fed and not disciplined this way." Religion is NOT necessary to peaceful coexistence.

On the contrary, it's likely that religion is a CONSEQUENCE of peaceful coexistence. Its earliest known traces seem to indicate that dealing with death was the most important function of spirituality. Encoding what we now call morality probably is something that happened slowly and because the religious authorities were also the teachers of the young.

Only Me
8/9/2013 05:23:16 pm

Your theory is sound, Varika. Based on archaeological evidence alone, the beginning of human spirituality can be attributed to the Neanderthals. They buried their dead, left offerings at the grave sites and experimented with pigmentation, in what is proposed to be an early attempt at expression. Before this, our ancestors where driven by two basic imperatives: survival and continuation of the species.

Perhaps our transition to an agricultural-based society led to the practice of praying to the gods, for favorable rains and bountiful harvests. Perhaps these practices bled over into every aspect of society as a result. It would be hard for religion to be born in the midst of continual conflict.

The Other J.
8/10/2013 08:19:25 am

Varika, I think you're right. I wish I could remember the exact study, but not too long ago a study was done on the inherent sense of fairness in toddlers and I believe chimps. The take-away is that there was an innate sense of fairness in the primate brain that shapes how primates interact with each other with regard to cooperation and rewards.

*does a quick google search*

Frans de Waal did the study and published the results in Jan., 2013. CNN has a report called "Morality: It's Not Just for Humans."

The point is that cooperation and reward, a dynamic that underlies pretty much any religious system, may be an emergent property of the primate brain, and not necessarily something handed down from on high.

But who knows. Maybe if there was no bible, there would be nothing to stop Glenn Beck from just tearing shreds off everyone around him. Somehow I doubt it.

Gary
8/10/2013 10:01:59 am

Jason, I've read the Book of Mormon and it is definitely anti-Jewish and racist. It's hard for me to think that someone who believes in that book as he does does not follow the same views.

I also want to mention that I don't believe that "thou shalt not bear false witness is a general prohibition against lying since wherever that comes up in the OT it's in the context of being an actual witness in front of a judge.

Beck is a fan of David Barton. When Barton lost his conservative Christian publisher because they finally found out he was a liar, Beck picked him up.

Uncle Ron
8/9/2013 04:07:51 pm

Thane- "Spiritual belief provided the rational behind behaviors that allowed for peaceable relations between people dwelling together in close proximity."

I believe it was simple expedience. "I won't hit you over the head and take your stuff if you don't hit me over the head and take my stuff." No god required.

Later, when societies grew complex enough to require adjudicators, shamans/priests/kings cemented their power by claiming the rules were divine commandments, along with the "eleventh" commandment, "Thou shalt tithe." UR

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Thane
8/10/2013 07:36:05 am

Instead of responding individually to every post, I 'd just like to say that I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

There are biological elements to our behaviors and if you asked me which dominates in the questions of Nature vs. Nurture, I would lean toward Nature. We are all wired the way we are wired and that impacts how we interpret the world around us. But I am not a biologist or a geneticist so, my opinion is just the opinion from personal observation.

The biological imperatives probably form the core of our care and concern for those we are related to etc, etc...

Beyond natural instinct, I believe there is a difference between formalized religions and spirituality (i.e. belief there is something greater than ourselves and so on). Since none of us have been part of or witnessed Neanderthal society, we really don't know the extent of their spirituality and how and IF it impacted their society. It's all speculation.

Granted, I am speculating too about the impact of spirituality and its impact on the formation of societies but I have to wonder why religion/spiritual beliefs were so central and integral to ancient societies of which we have more information. If peaceable coexistence and productive societies were all instinct, why have a religion at all? If it's merely an expression of human creativity in seeking answers to questions they did not have the technology to answer for them, then why wasn't religion merely a fringe or outlier to what drove that society.

You can say that religion developed as a means to control the populace but soldiers can control the population and civil laws in the absence of religion can also for the basis for agreed upon conduct of the members of that society.

It seems to me that religion in many socialites formed the glue... that cohesive center of their cultures.

I haven't seen good arguments to discount the importance of religion/spirituality in the formation of society.

I am not a practitioner of any religion but nor am I offended by religion.

Tara Jordan
8/9/2013 07:52:29 pm

"You can't separate society from the belief systems that formed them and you can't separate man from belief systems he created, in my opinion".
This is the definition of obscurantism.

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Thane
8/10/2013 07:50:29 am

Hi Tara

From wikipedia
"Obscurantism (French: obscurantisme, from the Latin obscurans, "darkening") is the practice of deliberately preventing the facts or the full details of some matter from becoming known. There are two common historical and intellectual denotations to Obscurantism: (1) deliberately restricting knowledge—opposition to the spread of knowledge, a policy of withholding knowledge from the public; and, (2) deliberate obscurity—an abstruse style (as in literature and art) characterized by deliberate vagueness"

I am not purposefully concealing or engaging in a deliberate attempt to obscure.

The only point I was trying to make, and obviously didn't make well, is that when we discuss societies we can't forget that societies are formed by humans. Societies represent the collective values (i.e. Culture) of the people in that society. Values are derived from the beliefs of said people. Since beliefs derive from people and are either accepted, rejected, or modified by people, you really can't separate people from their beliefs. They are intertwined.

This is not to say that the beliefs are correct, just that they emerge from humans.....not from outside sources. And that the beliefs the majority accept forms the core of their culture.

Since we do not have very good records from the very earliest formations of human societies, we really don't know what drove people together and how they chose to form the parameters of peaceable co-existence. Was it merely expediency? No doubt that plays a part. Was there something else? Once, through expediency they came together, what kept them together. what formed the nucleus of their values?

I speculate that some form of spirituality/religion formed the core of the values from which society grew.

I am not obscuring facts. I do not have them.

Tara Jordan
8/10/2013 08:03:50 am

Thane.
Thank you.I am aware of the definition,I am fluent in French.I never accused you of deliberate obscurantism,I merely used the word from the general perspective of "Analyse d`un exemple d`obscurantisme scientifique".
http://www.staune.fr/Qu-est-ce-que-l-obscurantisme.html

Cliff
11/16/2015 11:26:21 pm

Have you forgotten about the "stone of Destiny"? It is also called "Jacob's pillar stone" and "lia-fail", this is the same Jacob in the bible, who's name is changed to Isreal and this is the same stone where Irish, Scottish and Brittish kings were crowned on for hundreds of years. This is a fact, and you can see this stone in Scotland this very day. Also, I would check out the book of Jeremiah in the old testament, he had a secret commission to the Israelites after their captivity.

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Hervé M Dubois
2/26/2021 12:16:23 pm

'It would be incorrect to say that the 10 Commandments and Judaic law didn't influence and inform the philosophical underpinnings of what ultimately became the Western civilization.'
That may be so. But ,that would suggest that Western civilization IS the prophesied Antichrist who deceives the entire world in the end. Modern Christianity is Not of the Apostles or the True, one and only Christ.

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Blue Django link
8/9/2013 10:46:46 am

Hi Jason, I've finally had time to start reading your articles and this one was a great start for me.
Thanks,
Blue.

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Aaron Berkowitz
8/9/2013 01:56:52 pm

Good article! One thing, though. I'm not sure if most Christian Identity groups actually adopted Hines' views on Assyria and Germany. My understanding was that the main difference between British-Israelitism and CI was that the BIs thought that the 10 Tribes moved to Britain, whereas CI holds that all 12 Tribes moved to Europe and became the ancestors of all "white" Europeans. (Modern day Jews, according to CI, are actually not Jewish at all...)

I've been struck recently by the fact that certain ideas important in Christian Identity have made their way into certain Ancient Aliens/conspiracy type books. "The Secret History of the Reptillians", for instance, treated the idea of Cain as the son of Eve and the Serpent and the idea that Jesus was a "kinsman redeemer" who came to save a specific bloodline as if they were unproblematic and part of mainstream Christianity, when they are really major tenets of Christian Identity.

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Jason Colavito link
8/9/2013 02:05:07 pm

You're right. In checking again, I see that it is the Worldwide Church of God that explicitly adopted the Assyria = Germany claim, so I have amended the post to correct the error. Thanks.

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Dave Lewisl
8/9/2013 05:03:31 pm

The idea of Cain as the child of Eve & the serpent is found in Louis Ginzberg's Legends of the Jews, first published in 1909 in German.

Wickedness came into the world with the first being born of woman, Cain, the oldest son of Adam. When God bestowed Paradise upon the first pair of mankind, He warned them particularly against carnal intercourse with each other. But after the fall of Eve, Satan, in the guise of the serpent, approached her, and the fruit of their union was Cain, the ancestor of all the impious generations that were rebellious toward God, and rose up against Him. Cain’s descent
from Satan, who is the angel Samael, was revealed in his seraphic appearance.

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Gunn
8/9/2013 02:41:07 pm

Jesus clarified the situation when He said to the effect: "such as a person thinks in his heart, so is he/she." One can murder someone else in their hearts, and it happens every day on the highways and byways. And if I look at my neighbor's prize ass the wrong way, wanting it for myself, I am guilty of covetousness...and on and on.

Jason: "On Wednesday, Beck told his listeners that the Bible is the key to understanding history, which he accused Oprah Winfrey of purposely altering to deny Biblical truth. No, I have no idea what that means since I don’t keep up with Oprah’s theology."

Well, for starters, Oprah has openly confessed to being a Christian, yet she has ardently supported active homosexuality. If history is the Bible, and the Bible is history, Glen Beck was correct about her altering the truth of the Bible, which in no way supports a gay lifestyle. As a fellow Christian, I can't help wondering how she will ultimately explain her position to God (capital G).

How can what the Mormons formerly proposed be wrong if same-sex marriage is right? So, American society is open to same-sex marriage, but not to multiple-partner marriages?

(Just trying to stir up a bit of consternation here...any takers? Tara of the Blogs?)

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Varika
8/9/2013 04:11:02 pm

But the Bible isn't history, or not all of it, and CERTAINLY not all of history is the Bible. Furthermore, the Bible contradicts itself on a regular basis, and ALL modern Christians cherrypick it to say what they want it to say.

Also, just FYI, I personally support multiple-partner marriages, so long as all the partners are adults and all the partners actively consent to the marriage. I in no way, however, support what has been the Mormon standard for those multiple marriages, which has been underaged girls married off to one much-older man without having a chance to refuse.

If the Bible is the basis for law, then those marriages SHOULD be legal. After all, SOLOMON had his thousand wives and concubines, right?

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Only Me
8/9/2013 05:32:01 pm

Let's not forget the practice of slavery, acceptable according to the customs of the day written about in the Bible.

While religion has certainly influenced the creation and practice of law, it is not the sole foundation for it.

Gunn
8/10/2013 03:04:38 am

Well, The Word and God are the same, which leaves no room for contradiction. "In the beginning was...." Also then, the Bible is considered The Word, which leaves no room for contradiction, only misunderstanding.

For instance, dispensations come into play. Christians need to understand that "an eye for an eye" has been replaced with a different attitude. Once again, an issue of the heart, with the coming of Jesus, which shouldn't involve state-sanctioned murder. Texas is out of place. (What would Jesus do?)

Varika, I agree with much of your analysis, from a historical/Biblical perspective. How could it be otherwise?

Tara Jordan
8/9/2013 07:36:14 pm

You are right,from a literal interpretation, the 3 monotheism's (Abrahamism) condemn homosexuality, but throughout times (especially with Christianity),the approach to the issue varies depending on theological schools,reinterpretations & philosophical teachings.

Judaism considers homosexuality as an abomination,Christianity & Islam ,a sin, although Christianity & Islam draw the difference between the act & the perpetrators, the wish,the desire & the "finalization".

Ironically,in the Qu`ran,homosexuality is denounced on moral & ethical ground, but there is no specific sanction against it. In Muslims societies,when 2 men engaged in an act of sodomy, the man who is "active" is not considered an homosexual,only the one who is "passively" involved.

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Gunn
8/10/2013 03:25:29 am

Tara: In Muslims societies, when 2 men engaged in an act of sodomy, the man who is "active" is not considered an homosexual, only the one who is "passively" involved.

Right. Exactly. Precisely. Tell that to the little Afghanistan boys. This says a lot about a culture gone astray.

I worked as a state corrections officer in the past. Tell that to the prison population, for a good "fish" joke. Anything construed as make-up was contraband. But some "passives" aren't so passive, as with the Muslim child victims.

I agree with your other analysis...how could it be otherwise? Does this mean that we are brave in a degenerate, crumbling society? I wonder if Glen agrees with us?

Tara Jordan
8/10/2013 05:43:43 am

Gunn.
You cannot assimilate homosexuality with pedophilia.

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The Other J.
8/10/2013 08:55:16 am

Gunn, maybe check out the work by Tom Boswell (Yale, deceased), and then consider where the church's stance on homosexuality is actually at. Boswell showed that the church -- both Orthodox and Catholic -- sanctioned same-sex marriages for close to a thousand years, finding records of such going back to at least the 8th century and as recent as the 18th century. He collected records showing such church-sanctioned same-sex unions from the Vatican, St. Petersburg, Paris, Istanbul and in Sinai. He even uncovered the record of the same-sex union of the Byzantine Emperor Basil I. (The article I first read was from The Irish Times back in the 1998, but I know Boswell's work was recently posthumously published -- so that range may be greater.)

So: Either Oprah is in keeping with the older and far longer traditions of the church -- even if by accident; or both the Greek Orthodox and Catholic churches were just always wrong until the relatively recently. Which is it? Did a thousand years of biblical scholars just misinterpret the Word until the right-thinking Puritans came along and purged their ranks of the wrong kinds of thought?

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John McKay link
8/9/2013 03:50:20 pm

This is not the first time Beck has waded into anti-Semitic waters. He has several times pulled out old conspiracy books about Jewish bankers and/or Jewish Bolsheviks. One of the interesting things to me is the very fact that they are old books not new ones. Elizabeth Dilling's "The Red Network", isn't something that's going to be laying around in your neighborhood bookstore.

Beck doesn't seem to be an actual racist, like Limbaugh, but he uses the dog whistles. He's a Christian Zionist, but he hauls out all this old anti-Semitic crap. I think he's honestly clueless about what these books mean or these ideas imply. I suspect someone is feeding him these books or that he picked up a reading list a few years back and has been working his way through it.

Which doesn't mean he isn't dangerous.

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Blue Django link
8/10/2013 10:24:49 am

Hi there, John McKay. You have a very interesting blog-site 'Mammoth Tales'. Peace, Blue.

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The Other J.
8/10/2013 09:12:11 am

Jason showed how the 10 commandments differ between the Torah and the Catholic, Calvinist, Anglican, and other Christian interpretations. Does anyone know how the Mormon Church interprets the 10 commandments? Are they just like they are in the Torah, or more like the Anglican church? Because that would seem to have some bearing on Beck's meaning when he talks about the 10 commandments.

I'm also a bit curious as to how British Israelites and/or Christian Identity believers square their believes with genetic tracking that shows the vast majority of Jews share DNA markers that link them back to people from the Levant over 5,000 years ago. (Save for those who convert or recently married into the faith.) Did every last one of the special white Jews make their way to Europe and lose all of the DNA markers that would have linked them to their Semitic ancestors? Or do they argue the special white Jews were never Semitic in the first place, and just happened to share general European DNA markers while they also happened to be in Israel 5,000 years ago? Because it seems if you want to argue for some kind of special white genetic link back to the bible, these things matter.

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varika
8/10/2013 10:27:06 am

They probably say that those markers aren't for Jews but for, say, Canaanites or something.

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Mary
8/11/2013 11:56:10 am

Gloss over: Code of Hammurabi, c. 1780 BCE

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/hamcode.asp

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Mary
8/11/2013 01:44:47 pm

Also Beck is voicing opinions on his 'belief system' certainly not facts. It appears he doe not even know the origin of the Jews. Sorry to use Wiki but seems to have the best synopsis w/o deep research.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_did_the_Jewish_people_originate

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Genetics
11/26/2014 07:43:16 pm

Absolutely obsurd lady, Mr Beck uses nothing but facts to support his claim... Don't apologize for using wiki JUST DONT USE IT! anyone that rests their argument on wiki is already on the losing end of the argument, I don't have much more to say because arguing with ignorance is like arguing with an alcoholic.

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J.Swift
1/8/2015 09:38:14 pm

I would like to touch on only a single point mentioned in this article about the number 13 quoting Mr. Beck. The quote mentions Joseph splitting into two tribes and in essence creating the 13th tribe. I have a proposal to skeptics of the bible... take a $1 dollar bill, and look at the back. Feel free to do a quick Google search for the meaning of the writings on the back. Then find a copy of the king James bible- it's among the closest translations to the original wording, and go look at Genesis chapter 49. Primarily verses 1 for the setting and context, then go look at verses 22-26. Mr. Beck may not have his facts straight, and it is not my intent to defend him or his beliefs, but it doesn't mean he's wrong about everything he says.

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Chris s.
8/3/2016 08:55:31 pm

Qwatch

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quecerine
2/26/2017 08:39:02 am

Glenn Back need to stick to what he knows and STFU on things he does not know.

"Imperial Chinese managed to run societies without the Mosaic Law for thousands of years, though I suppose one could argue they feared retribution from Pluto, Hades, or Yan. "

Who the heck is Yan? And Ancient Chinese knows NO Pluto nor Hades. Ancient Chinese WAS already "Christian" even before Christ was born, ie, meaning they are ALREADY MONOTHEISTIC who worship ShangDi who shares same if not similar attributes to Yhwh of Ancient Hebrew Israelites !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MeywQgz4Po
http://www.orthodox.cn/localchurch/200406ancientcnhist_en.htm
http://www.cogwriter.com/china.htm
http://eifiles.witnesstoday.org/oo-en.htm
http://www.annomundi.com/history/forgotten_history_east.htm
Thus retribution, comeuppance, the law of sowing & reaping is part of the Chinese culture and "coincidently" biblical!
That is WHY UNLIKE USA who has NO concept 'what you sow, you reap' LOVE to SEEK out war perpetually, whereas China's aggression is for survival and preservation. What to do when satanic USA is breathing down your neck, even unprovoked! Heck even India has to go through the same shit as China being suffocated by satanic USA. http://investmentwatchblog.com/how-usa-is-encircling-china-india-with-secret-weapons-mind-blow/
USA is a PROFESSIONAL VICTIM set about a SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY that others want to war with her. That's what malignant narcs are. Just like in Mid East, Africa,and SEA. USA CREATE their OWN enemies....then whine, blame, cry wolf when got retaliated and scapegoat others. Just like your current Antichrist Trump, roughing up with with Mexico, Muslim countries but Saudi Arabia the ones that EXPORT tons of terrorists is CONVENIENTLY OVERLOOKED, China (though USA claimed them commie but has NO issue of selling out your own sovereignty to COMMIE Russia. Part of the reason is both are WHITE, thus due to WHITE SUPREMACISM they want to create a pure-white powerhouse!!)

And Islam Shariah, or China;s State Capitalism is the scary ones, eh? Glenn Back, you better go back to your Caucus mountain.

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    • Jimmy: The Secret Life of James Dean >
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    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
      • Secret History of Ancient Astronauts
      • Of Atlantis and Aliens
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      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
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      • Blunders in the Sky
      • The Case of the False Quotes
      • Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud
      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
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      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
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      • Interview: Scott Sigler
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      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
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      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
      • Lovecraft in Bergier
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    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
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    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
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    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
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    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Eridu Genesis
          • Atrahasis Epic
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          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
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          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
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          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
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          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
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        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
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        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
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        • Sacred History of Euhemerus
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Fragments of Artapanus
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Fragments of Bruttius
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
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          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Byzantine World Chronicle
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Chronicle to 724
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Pseudo-Diocles Fragmentum
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • Popol Vuh
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Atlantis as Biblical History
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Atlantis and Nimrod
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and Hanno's Periplus
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
          • Amazing New Light (Hoax)
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
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        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
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        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
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        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
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        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
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          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
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          • Fossils and the Supernatural
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          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • History of Paleontology
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • Arabic Names of Egyptian Kings
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • America Known to the Ancients
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Remarkable Discoveries Within the Sphinx (Hoax)
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • The Shaver Mystery >
          • Lovecraft and the Deros
          • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • CIA Search for the Ark of the Covenant
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • The Fall of the Sky
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Poltergeist UFOs
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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