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Graham Hancock Wants Your Help Proving Alaskan Mammoths Died in One Massive Catastrophe

8/30/2017

41 Comments

 
Just days after recovering from a life-threatening seizure and coma, alternative history researcher Graham Hancock put out a call to crowdsource research for a forthcoming book. Hancock asked his fans to help him research the question of whether wooly mammoths faced a catastrophic extinction event in Alaska at the end of the Ice Age. Hancock is particularly interested in the work of Frank Hibben and Froelich Rainey from the 1930s and 1940s, and the articles that he cites sounded familiar to me. It turns out there was a good reason for that. The sources Hancock uses are the same ones that creationists have spent the better part of half a century using to allege that the mammoths were “flash frozen” by a catastrophic change in temperature. I explored those claims last year (here and here), but Hancock has now offered a slightly more sophisticated version of the earlier claim in defense of his current hobbyhorse, that a comet slammed into the Earth at the end of the Younger Dryas, destroying Atlantis.
Hancock has long been interested in flash-frozen mammoths. The story appears in Fingerprints of the Gods (1995), where Hancock first used it as evidence of a sudden and catastrophic “pole shift” that froze the mammoths in the space of an hour or two as the entire Earth’s crust slipped over the planet’s surface.
 
The story of the flash-frozen mammoths goes back a long way, before it was even a part of creationist and fringe history lore. It began with jokes about Alaskan restaurants serving mammoth steaks, derived, ultimately, from a Russian account of what happened when the Berskova mammoth was unearthed in Siberia in 1901. As a 1929 investigation showed, the flesh at first seemed fresh, but after thawing smelled so bad that only the sled dogs would eat it. The only scientist to try the meat immediately became violently ill. Nevertheless, anti-imperial propagandists painted a portrait of the Tsar himself dining on mammoth steaks and prehistoric grains in a decadent feast of extinct foods. In the 1940s, Hibben examined the melting remains of what he claimed were “thousands of tons of rotting mammoth meat” in Alaska and alleged that he had tasted some. His account, which Hancock cites approvingly in this week’s call to action, has long been disputed as fanciful (How did no one else notice so much putrid meat?), but it is the text that brought Russian mammoth dinner stories to Alaska, where they hung out for decades. From this kernel of truth, a widespread legend of mammoth dinners arose, reaching the peak of their popularity in the late 1950s and early 1960s, when the stories were a staple of popular literature about the Arctic.
 
Hancock, however, dismisses all of this and alleges that the real propaganda effort is the one scientists have launched to discredit Hibben: “Indeed a co-ordinated campaign to discredit him has been mounted by a group of modern geologists who claim that his colourful descriptions are ‘nothing more than imaginative fiction’.” Hancock neglects to note that one of the key reasons for disbelieving Hibben is that he was suspected in the 1940s of fabricating evidence for a pre-Clovis culture at Sandia Cave.
 
But for Hancock, the real issue is whether Hibben can be proven correct that the mammoths died in a catastrophe rather than a more gradual extinction. To that end, he jumbles together a number of arguments and misunderstands the purpose of scientific citations. He quotes Paul Heinrich, a geologist, who explained in 2007 that more recent geological research found that Hibben was incorrect when he described the layers in which the rotting mammoth meat was found as comprising an indiscriminate jumble of flora and fauna, mixed as though by catastrophe. Hancock takes issue with the fact that Heinrich cited modern geological research to support his evaluation. This is because Hancock cites an Immanuel Velikovsky apologist (really) as saying that none of the cited articles specifically mention Hibben by name. That is because the apologist (and Hancock) seem to misunderstand that current research on the same geological layers is by default a refutation of Hibben, even without naming him, if it contradicts his research. An article needn’t be a specific attempt at debunking to provide data that contradict an earlier claim. Hancock then suggests that any admission that many mammal fossils were found in Alaska is de facto confirmation of Hibben’s claims to have found catastrophic jumbles, even though the argument isn’t over the number of fossils but rather how they were found and how they ended up that way. Heinrich makes very clear that he was citing sources that provided modern research into Alaska geology, not intentional efforts to disprove Hibben. That is Heinrich’s own conclusion from the science.
 
Let’s take an example of how Hancock misrepresents things. Here is Hancock writing of Heinrich’s citation of Troy L. Pewe’s 1975 Quaternary Geology of Alaska:
On the other hand, however, we have Pewe, one of the very sources that Heinrich offers as proof that Hibben’s claims and descriptions were ‘exaggerated’ and ‘inaccurate’. Yet, in the passages quoted above, Pewe offers no such proof. On the contrary, he cites Hibben himself and refers unambiguously to ‘the abundant remains of extinct Pleistocene mammals, found in frozen deposits along major rivers and in the valleys of many minor streams.’
​Remember, the argument isn’t over whether there are lots of animal bones but rather whether they were deposited all at once in a confusing and irregular jumble. But even if we were to concede some ambiguity in Pewe’s text, the portion Hancock quotes is not the one that Heinrich cites. Now here is what Heinrich actually uses from Pewe’s paper, and (shock!) it’s actually data, not opinion:
​For example as shown in Figure 29 of Pewe (1975a), buried forest containing in situ tree stumps at the top of the Fox Gravel, the Gold Hill Loess, and the Goldstream Loess. Each of these buried forests are characterized by the in situ stumps of mature trees rooted in buried soils developed in the top of each of these units (Pewe 1975a, 1975b, 1989; Pewe et al. 1997). These buried forests consist of the stumps and fallen trunks of forests buried in place by colluvial deposits or solifluction lobes. Papers and monographs published in the last fifty years have shown the claims and descriptions made by Rainey (1940) and Hibben (1942, 1946) concerning the abundance and distribution of fossil bones to be grossly exaggerated and quite inaccurate.
What a surprise! Hancock leaves out the relevant material from Heinrich that explains what specific facts were cited in order to concoct a false narrative by cherry-picking and misunderstanding material.
 
“Like many of his colleagues in universities around the world today,” Hancock writes, “Heinrich appears to be ideologically committed to the uniformitarian notion of slow, gradual geological changes – so it’s no surprise that he rejects and seeks to ‘debunk’ catastrophist explanations.” However, Hancock helpfully elides a variety of early, creationist, and fringe claims into one. Explanations that ranged from localized natural disasters to pole shifts and comet collisions are all folded together to explain fossil finds, as though a local disaster and a global geological catastrophe were equivalent. They are, but only in the minds of fringe writers who take all contradictions of “official” science as equally valid.
41 Comments
Bob Jase
8/30/2017 11:38:00 am

Great legend - herds of frozen mammoths across the great white north.

Too bad those frozen herds don't exist, never did. And the legend ignores that dozens of other species like the long-horned bison were also herd animals yet even fewer have been found.

But that's reality for ya.

Reply
Uncle Ron
8/30/2017 12:04:20 pm

". . . a sudden and catastrophic “pole shift” that froze the mammoths in the space of an hour or two as the entire Earth’s crust slipped over the planet’s surface."
Shifts of the earth's magnetic polarity have occurred many times in the planet's history but the actual shifts take from decades to a millennia to complete and the crust of the earth does not move, relative to the core.

Reply
Clete
8/30/2017 12:11:57 pm

I am shocked that Graham Hancock did not cite a more reliable source. I am referring to the television show "Northern Exposure". In one episode the head character, played by Rob Morrow, finds a mammoth frozen in the tundra. He reports this, but before the mammoth can be excavated, some of the locals butcher it and dine on mammoth steaks. This source has as much validity as the sources he did use.

Reply
Bob Jase
8/30/2017 12:15:21 pm

Well I guess the actual scarcity of frozen mamoth & other corpses will now be used as evidence that bigfoots ate them as they defrosted.

Reply
Only Me
8/30/2017 12:19:16 pm

For someone who wants to be taken seriously, Hancock sure does love older, disproven ideas. A consequence of those ideas finding no acceptance among actual scientists.

By the way, shouldn't Hancock be distancing himself from the negativity of his criticism towards Heinrich? Seems foolish to push his well-being towards the very activity that almost cost him his life...according to him.

Reply
Bill Birkeland
8/31/2017 09:04:37 pm

A person would think so. However, I suspect Hancock in his criticism is just pandering to his base by essentially accusing this guy of being an enemy of science and playing the victim. This appears to be similar to the populist politicians who also panders to their base by accusing journalists of being enemies of the people and explains his failures as someone elses' fault.

Reply
Brian
8/30/2017 01:00:07 pm

So all one has to do to crowd-fund something is claim that "scientists" are trying to suppress it. Noted. Let the mourning for reason continue.

I know all the statistics and studies, but really, how can such a significant percentage of our population (with spare cash or credit) be so knee-jerk anti-science? Obviously these dupes are using computers, which wouldn't be possible without science. Or the electricity to run them.

Reply
David Bradbury
8/30/2017 03:01:01 pm

Clarke's Fiifth Law:
"Any sufficiently common technology is indistinguishable from spoons"

Reply
Uncle Ron
8/31/2017 12:06:07 pm

". . . how can such a significant percentage of our population . . . be so knee-jerk anti-science?"

Strategic stupidity, Brian. In George Will's 8/31/17 column he references a remark by an Oberlin College student, as recorded by Frank Furedi, a Professor Emeritus and writer in England, "There's something to be said about exposing yourself to ideas other than your own, but I've had enough of that."

Reply
Ken
8/30/2017 03:26:37 pm

I'm starting a crowd fund to raise $250,000 to prove that one can learn just as much science as those uppity pHD's just by watching TV,

Reply
E.P. Grondine
8/31/2017 09:19:22 am

Hello Jason -

It is always my pleasure to defend the scientific integrity of Hibbens.

To review, Hibbens had so fine a mind that during World War 2 he was assigned courier duties for materials that were so sensitive that they could not be sent by coded messages or even put into writing While performing those duties he suffered a serious head injury, so when various early cranks made off with his observations from the 1930's, he was unable to defend his scientific integrity.

I'll be continuing this later today.

Reply
An Over-Educated Grunt
8/31/2017 10:08:20 am

And Newton practiced alchemy. Being smart, even brilliant, is no defense against being proven wrong down the line.

Reply
Americanegro
8/31/2017 01:49:34 pm

Yeah, so? Alternate explanation: the head injury made him think he'd been a courier. And elves stole his notebooks.

Reply
Steve StC
8/31/2017 10:35:28 pm

Seriously, what are you smoking?

Americanegro
8/31/2017 11:00:34 pm

Should I complain to Jason about your post apparently accusing me of drug use?

TONY S.
8/31/2017 11:07:10 pm

No worries Americanegro. He's just going to tell Jason that it wasn't really him again, and ask him to delete the comment afterwards. It's his new MO.

Americanegro
9/1/2017 12:58:54 pm

"I'll be continuing this later today."

Another deadline missed. Must be running on Fake Indian Time.

Reply
TONY S.
8/31/2017 04:25:02 pm

It isn't enough for Hancock that he's been making a mockery of ancient history, astronomy and archaeology, he's had to cross over into paleontology as well.

He'd better steer clear of geology, that's Wolter's field to embarrass. Wouldn't want there to be a civil war within the fringe community.

Reply
Shane Sullivan
9/1/2017 01:28:42 am

Well, and Robert Schoch.

And Danny Natawidjaja.

And Alexander Koltpyn.

Boy, Geology sure is well represented in the fringe.

Reply
Murgatroyd
8/31/2017 05:17:41 pm

Paul Heinrich seems to have commented about the Graham Hancock blog post -

http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?1,613627,613636#msg-613636

Reply
E.P. Grondine
9/1/2017 09:23:29 am

I'll handle Paul on Monday.

I'm busy with my pre-clovis team and some other local archaeologists this weekend.

Reply
Americanegro
9/1/2017 06:02:44 pm

Keeping us posted on the contents of your dayplanner is a valuable contribution. Thank you!

John J McKay link
8/31/2017 09:27:11 pm

OMG. This is going to fun.

Catastrophic mammoths are what led me to write my book on mammoth discoveries. During my research, I built a crude database of every documented mammoth discovery with soft tissues attached (not just bones or ivory). There have been about 75 since 1692. Most of those were bits of skin and ligament attached to leg bones and such. A small number were relatively complete. There were no "whole herds" or "flash frozen" mammoths.

I know what I'm going to doing this weekend.

Reply
John J McKay link
9/2/2017 07:02:46 pm

I sent a polite invitation to Hancock offering to show him around Alaska and introduce him to some local experts. We'll see what happens.

Reply
Paul H.
9/1/2017 10:44:47 pm

Someone should tell Hancock that the post, which he and the Velikovsky apologist criticized was just one of a series of posts that were part of an extended exchanged with Mr. Grondine. and me The full list of posts are:

The Imaginary Mucks of Alaska and Siberia was "Arrowheads from NWA"
http://theepistlesofpaul.blogspot.com/2007/06/imaginary-mucks-of-alaska-and-siberia.html

More Comments by Graham Hancock About Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis
http://theepistlesofpaul.blogspot.com/2017/05/more-comments-by-graham-hancock-about.html

Alaskan Muck (Mucks), Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited (Long)
http://theepistlesofpaul.blogspot.com/2007/07/alaskan-muck-mucks-tsunamis-and-hibben.html

Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 2 (Long)
http://theepistlesofpaul.blogspot.com/2007/08/alaskan-muck-tsunamis-and-hibben_07.html

Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 3 (Long)
http://theepistlesofpaul.blogspot.com/2007/08/alaskan-muck-tsunamis-and-hibben_20.html
http://theepistlesofpaul.blogspot.com/search/label/Alaskan%20muck

Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 4 (Long)
http://theepistlesofpaul.blogspot.com/2007/08/alaskan-muck-tsunamis-and-hibben.html

Hibben and YD impacts 5APR2010
http://theepistlesofpaul.blogspot.com/2010/04/hibben-and-yd-impacts-5apr2010.html

Frank Hibben
http://theepistlesofpaul.blogspot.com/2007/09/frank-hibben.html

Yours,

Paul H.

Reply
Americanegro
9/1/2017 11:17:04 pm

Someone should summarize whatever the heck you're talking about. Are you a layabout, Focker?

Reply
E.P. Grondine
9/4/2017 11:02:26 am

Hello Paul -

Writing a whole lot of words does not make anything true.

You and I both know that the mucks Hibbens observed were being exposed by the Fairbanks Exploration Company, which was hydraulically mining gold, and no longer survive.

Pointing to something else and claiming that it is what Hibbens observed is not fair science.

Here is another fact: those mammoth and mega-fauna bones were sold by the Fairbanks Exploration Company for ivory, used for both billiard balls and piano keys.

If we can track down those sales, then we will have samples for radio carbon dating.

While you're here, there is a cluster of radio carbon dates around 10,850 BCE for the mammoth remains found in Siberia. My estimate is that he beasts became trapped while searching for food in dangerous fringe areas during the global climate collapse which that comet impact caused. (You can ask Dorothy Norton about those dates, which are from a book she illustrated.)

Now while we have outflow data for several rivers, we do not have outflow data for either the Columbia River or Yukon River
for the period under study, which is a right pain in the ass.

In closing, I want to point out that fast neutrons are produced in large hyper velocity impacts, and thus from the carbon 14 data we know that there were 2 cometary impacts at the start of the Holocene. Given the lack of aerial suspension of the impactites, we know that the first of these was on the ice sheet, as thee existing river outflow data indicates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbM4vHcRyz0

Given the layer of platinum group elements found globally, we can safely assert that at least one fragment of the second cometary impact event hit exposed land.

I have always though that if your income was dependent on sorting this out, the research would be much further along.
As I am simultaneously retrieving data on several recent impact events, if you can't make yourself useful, then please get out of the way.

As a last word here, I'd like to add a deeply felt "F*cl You" to all the "G*d D*mned F*cking M*rs N*ts" fro whom space utopianism has replaced religion. The Neocam needs to be launched now.

Reply
Americanegro
9/4/2017 12:32:35 pm

Uh, bones ≠ ivory. That mistake in grade school knowledge calls anything you say about science into question. Do you even science bro?

Paul H. link
9/4/2017 08:03:20 pm

Dear Ed,

You wrote,

>Writing a whole lot of words does not make anything true.

This can be said quite well of what Hibben has written about the Alaskan Muck deposits and the mummified mammoths and bison in "Digging up America" (1960:63-64). :-) without providing any detailed documentation. What I do not understand is why you are so confident in the infallibility and inerrancy of Dr. Hibben when he is repeatedly contradicted at times by contemporaneous studies and the rigorous examination of these deposits over the last 70 years. You have to remember that Dr. Hibben was a southwestern archaeologist, who was totally new to the Arctic - Subarctic, and was totally lacking in any understanding of periglacial processes and the mechanics of permafrost. In fact, unlike today, very little was known at that time about either periglacial or catastrophic tsunami processes and the sedimentology of the deposits that they produce.

>You and I both know that the mucks Hibbens observed were being
>exposed by the Fairbanks Exploration Company, which was hydraulically
>mining gold, and no longer survive.

Ed, I regard this as the the "dog ate my evidence / homework" or the "Smithsonian hid all of the Ooparts / "giant skeletons" type of excuse for which you have repeatedly have failed to provide any published evidence to justify. Contemporary reports by other paleontologists, geologists, and paleobotanists contradict and discredit Hibben's descriptions of the Alaskan Muck as presented in "Digging up America" (1960:63-64) as being basically imaginary in nature. There is nothing unique about the muck deposits described in contemporary scientific studies that I have found. Simply saying this specific type of deposit exists no longer survive without providing any evidence for this claim proves nothing given that Hibben's own accounts of what he found at that expose contradict each other greatly according to what I found.

In fact, Dr. J. L. Giddings ("Buried wood from Fairbanks, Alaska," (1938:3-5, Tree-Ring Bulletin), who was familiar with local periglacial processes and permafrost, studied the Alaskan Muck in the Fairbank area and found four levels of buried forests of trees that had grown more than hundred years buried within the muck. He recognized that the Alaskan Muck contained layers of debris flows that are the result of periglacial processes. These deposits are now known to be typical of solifluction lobes. The deposits of such debris flows are identical to the muck described by Hibben in "Evidence of Early Man in Alaska" (1943:256, American Antiquity). By the way, Velikovsky in "Earth in Upheaval, (1955:2) clearly edited the description of muck found in Hibben's "Evidence of Early Man in Alaska" (1943:256, American Antiquity) as to greatly distort Hibben's original description of Alaskan Muck.

>Pointing to something else and claiming that it is what
>Hibbens observed is not fair science.

We are going to have to agree to disagree until you can provide me some hard, documentary evidence to back up your claims instead of making speculative assertions that lack either credible evidence or arguments. The muck deposits described by contemporary studies are indistinguishable from those described by Hibben in "Evidence of Early Man in Alaska" (1943:256, American Antiquity). In addition, I regard it as highly implausible that a regional or global catastrophe large to cause a mass extinction would create deposits that were limited to one outcrop.

>Here is another fact: those mammoth and mega-fauna
>bones were sold by the Fairbanks Exploration Company
>for ivory, used for both billiard balls and piano keys.
>
>If we can track down those sales, then we will have
>samples for radiocarbon dating.

Unfortunately, given the lack of bed-specific provenience, any such dates would be both meaningless and useless as evidence of anything.
>While you're here, there is a cluster of radio carbon
>dates around 10,850 BCE for the mammoth remains
>found in Siberia. My estimate is that he beasts
>became trapped while searching for food in dangerous
>fringe areas during the global climate collapse which
>that comet impact caused. (You can ask Dorothy
>Norton about those dates, which are from a book
>she illustrated.)

A popular book is not a proper source for such data. Where in the peer-review scientific literature in which these dates are published?

from the New Siberian Islands, several such "clusters" of radiocarbon dates have been reported from a collection of 87 radiocarbon dates that range from 9470±40 BP to greater than 50,000 BP (14C) by P. A. Nikolskiy et al., "Last straw versus Blitzkrieg overkill: Climate-driven changes in the Arctic Siberian mammoth population and the Late Pleistocene extinction problem. (2010, Quaternary Science Reviews, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2010.10.017) Given that fossil bones have been accumulating in sedime

John J McKay link
9/2/2017 07:07:25 pm

I just reread Hancock and I'm working my way through your posts now. After that, Hapgood, Sanderson, and Hibbert.

Reply
Paul H. 002
9/4/2017 08:06:31 pm

Given that fossil bones have been accumulating in sediments of the New Siberian Islands over the last 200,000 years, a person can cherry pick the data, including any one of the several radiocarbon date "clusters," to prove anything they want.

>Now while we have outflow data for several rivers,
>we do not have outflow data for either the Columbia
>River or Yukon River for the period under study,
>which is a right pain in the ass.

In case of the Columbia River, there are offshore turbidite deposits that have been directly linked by terrestrial microfossils and sediment mineralogy to the largest of the Missoula (Spokane Floods). Using the marine deposits and ash layers that they are interbedded with, they can directly and indirectly dated. These turbidite deposits provide a chronology of the largest of the Missoula Flood events that sounded refute Grahman Hancock’s and Randall Carlon's claims about number and timing of these megaflloods.

>In closing, I want to point out that fast neutrons are
>produced in large hyper velocity impacts, and thus
>from the carbon 14 data we know that there were
>2 cometary impacts at the start of the Holocene.
>Given the lack of aerial suspension of the impactites,
>we know that the first of these was on the ice sheet,
>as thee existing river outflow data indicates.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbM4vHcRyz0

There exists quite a lot of skepticism about the association of fast neutrons and hypervelocity impacts. go see "Re: {MPML} Fast neutrons produced in large hypervelocity impacts."
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mpml/conversations/messages/32571
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mpml/conversations/messages/32574
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mpml/conversations/messages/32578
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mpml/conversations/messages/32579

Also, there skepticism about your use of oral histories to identify hypervelocity impact events in "Re: {MPML} Comets as fraction of impact hazard" at:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mpml/conversations/messages/30047
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mpml/conversations/messages/30048
https://arxiv.org/abs/1404.3253

>Given the layer of platinum group elements found globally, we can
>safely assert that at least one fragment of the second cometary
>impact event hit exposed land.

This is indeed interesting and intriguing, but not at all definitive of a catastrophic impact.

>I have always thought that if your income was dependent on sorting
>this out, the research would be much further along.

I am supposed to be doing geological mapping, geoarchaeology of the Louisiana Continental shelf, and other such stuff. However, I have found and published an Pleistocene impact crater in Southeast Louisiana. Unfortunately, for the Younger Dryas Impact proponents it is likely about 20,000 to 30,000 years too old to be of any interest to them. I am working on getting money to date and do other work on it.

>As I am simultaneously retrieving data on several
>recent impact events, if you can't make yourself
>useful, then please get out of the way.

I have no idea what you are talking about. However, Graham Hancock is the person causing reals problems to real researchers by publishing pseudoscientific predictions about killer asteroids without any usable evidence to base them on. Having people cry "wolf" about impact hazards does not help anyone, who studies them.

>As a last word here, I'd like to add a deeply felt
>"F*cl You" to all the "G*d D*mned F*cking M*rs
>N*ts" fro whom space utopianism has replaced
>religion. The Neocam needs to be launched now.

I agree with the very serious nature of the asteroid and meteorite impact threat. I am all for launching the Near-Earth Object Camera (NEOCam) and Safeguard-like programs. The problem that I have is that fringe authors and their pseudoscientific writing about prehistoric impact events and their reports of innumerable pseudo-impact structures and craters only make such efforts difficult to fund by discrediting the serious nature of the threat. Otherwise, I would likely ignore most as amusing, but best-selling, writers of bad fantasy fiction for which they are.

Also, I agree with you that many of the Mars colonization proponents have lost touch with reality. It is still a place that is best visited via robots and rovers.

By the way, if Graham Hancock wants peer-reviewed papers that specifically cite Alaskan Muck by name, they include:

Kotler, E. and Burn, C.R., 2000. Cryostratigraphy of
the Klondike" muck" deposits, west-central Yukon
Territory. Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences, 37(6),
pp.849-861.

Matthews Jr, J.V., 1974. Wisconsin environment of interior
Alaska: pollen and macrofossil analysis of a 27 meter core
from the Isabella Basin (Fairbanks, Alaska). Canadian
Journal of Earth Sciences, 11(6), pp.828-841.

Finally, I would love to know (1.) what is Graham Hanco

Reply
Murgatroyd
9/5/2017 02:55:17 am

I see that Paul's full reply to E.P. Grondine appears here:

http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?1,613627,613730#msg-613730

Reply
E.P. Grondine
9/6/2017 02:03:15 pm

Hi Murgatroyd -

It is certain that the deposit Hibben viewed no longer exists.
However, ivory from that deposit does still exist, and could carbon dated.

I am perfectly content to let the data be as it is.

Once again, there were 2 separate impact events at the start of the Holocene, firmly demonstrated by incontrovertible and uncontestable absolutely hard data.

We do not have good flow data for either the Columbia River nor the Yukon River. For that matter, firm dates for the drainages of the glacial lakes is hard to come by.

Mr. Hancock and Mr. Carlson's opinions are theirs.
Other serious researchers, including myself, into these impact events have our own views.
Please do not confuse me or them with Hancock or Carlson.



E.P. Grondine
9/7/2017 09:29:58 am

In the Hall of Maat, the weight of your sins are measured against the weight of a feather.

I thank Paul for pointing its readers here for this discussion.
I stand by my view of Hibben's observations, and it is always a pleasure for me to defend the reputation of this wounded veteran.

My worknotes may be found here:

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3656

and here

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3668

and extracts viewed here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbM4vHcRyz0

E.P. Grondine
9/4/2017 09:26:29 pm

"However, Graham Hancock is the person causing real problems to real researchers by publishing pseudoscientific predictions about killer asteroids without any usable evidence to base them on. Having people cry "wolf" about impact hazards does not help anyone who studies them."

Yes, I agree with you completely on that. As you know full well, I've dealt with them for years. Hancock also wants one "advanced" culture, whereas in fact there were several "advanced" cultures that were affected by the Holocene Start Impact Events.

All I have for the Columbia River outflows are salinity proxies:
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3656
and
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3668

As far as the global Platinum Group Element layer goes,
if you can come up with another explanation for it other than comet impact, please do.

The same goes for the fast neutrons and the carbon 14 spikes.

As well as for the river outflow data shown in my video.

And the same also holds true for the Native American traditions.
(You will remember that Japanese inscription with its tsunami warning that some people could not understand?)

"Also, I agree with you that many of the Mars colonization proponents have lost touch with reality."

I am very glad to see you publicly state that.

"I am working on getting money to date and do other work on it."

When I started in on this, Gene Shoemaker was alive, and you would not have had any problem getting funding for research on this problem. Have you tried approaching the Canadians?

Also, if Gene Shoemaker were alive we wouldn't be having any problem getting samples and carbon 14 dates for the deposit Hibbens observed.

"I am all for launching the Near-Earth Object Camera (NEOCam) and Safeguard-like programs."

One good thing about Hancock and Carlson is that the can raise the issue of NASA's failure since 2006 to launch the NEOcam to an audience of at least 6 mililon.

I would like to see it in orbit and operational by 2022, when Comet Schwassmann Wachman 3 comes into the inner solar system again, as I am concerned about any pieces of sh*t from space it may leave behind.

As to who Graham Ha. is, Paul, I type these little notes mostly using my right hand.

Reply
Americanegro
9/4/2017 10:58:43 pm

"You and I both know that the mucks Hibbens observed were being exposed by the Fairbanks Exploration Company, which was hydraulically mining gold, and no longer survive."

"Also, if Gene Shoemaker were alive we wouldn't be having any problem getting samples and carbon 14 dates for the deposit Hibbens observed."

Perhaps you can clarify.

Bones still ≠ ivory.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
9/5/2017 06:12:09 pm

Hi Paul -

"Ed, I regard this as the the "dog ate my evidence / homework" or the "Smithsonian hid all of the Ooparts / "giant skeletons" type of excuse for which you have repeatedly have failed to provide any published evidence to justify".

While Hrdlcka ( a founder of the Eugeneics Society) regularly hid skeletons of tall Native Americans, they've been dug up recently by Webb and Snow (The Adena) and Dragoo and Neuman (Mounds for the Dead), and are well documented:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBFlFRLnzk8

The height genome also expresses among Cherokee and Osage today.

The other mucks arer not at issue, the deposit Hibben saw
is:

Frank Hibben was one of the first archaeologists to excavate Folsom and Clovis remains, and in 1933 and 1941 he traveled to Alaska trying to find remains of early man along the “Siberian Land Bridge”. Hibben’s account of the work of the pioneering archaeologists makes for a fine read, and his description of what he found in Alaska, and where he found it, makes for particularly fascinating reading....

“Frozen in the muck walls, or beaten out beneath the insistent pounding of the streams of water {from the hydraulic jets], were logs and twisted trees and branches and stumps. Here and there were layers of moss and peat; but nowhere in the muck could we find a layer of charcoal, or a fire pit, or any of those other indications that we had come to associate with the campsites of the ancient hunters.

“Mammals there were in abundance, dumped in all attitudes of death. Most of them were pulled apart by some unexplained prehistoric catastrophic disturbance. Legs and torsos and heads and fragments were found together in piles or scattered separately. But nowhere could we find any definite evidence that humans had ever walked among these trumpeting herds or had ever seen their final end.

“On one particular rainy, dark afternoon, we were assisting one of the paleontologists in excavating the remains of an Alaskan lion-a great, striped beast with long fangs, slightly reminiscent of a Bengal tiger. He looked like a nasty customer in death, even though he was represented only by scattered bones in the black muck. As we sought for the lower jaw of the lion in a newly revealed surface of muck, we found our evidence of man-a flint point still frozen solid in the muck bank.

“Its position was about ninety feet below the original surface. We photographed it in place, then removed it from the frozen ground, eagerly held it up, and turned it over for inspection. We washed the clinging muck from it in the muddy water beneath our feet. It was of pink stone, finely chipped and gracefully shaped, and undoubtedly made by the hand of man.”

Hibbens concluded that the massive slaughter which he had seen in the muck had been caused by worldwide volcanic eruptions:

“One of the most interesting of the theories of the Pleistocene end is that which explains this ancient tragedy by world-wide, earthshaking volcanic eruptions of catastrophic violence. This bizarre idea, queerly enough, has considerable support, especially in the Alaskan and Siberian regions.

“Interspersed in the muck depths and sometimes through the very piles of bones and tusks themselves are layers of volcanic ash. There is no doubt that coincidental with the end of the Pleistocene animals, at least in Alaska, there were volcanic eruptions of tremendous proportions. It stands to reason that animals whose flesh is still preserved must have been killed and buried quickly to be preserved at all. Bodies that die and lie on the surface soon disintegrate and the bones are scattered. A volcanic eruption would explain the end of the Alaskan animals all at one time, and in a manner that would satisfy the evidences there as we know them. The herds would be killed in their tracks either by the blanket of volcanic ash covering them and causing death by heat or suffocation, or indirectly by the volcanic gases. Toxic clouds of gas from volcanic upheavals could well cause death on a gigantic scale. If every individual, old and young, were killed, extinction would naturally follow.”

Alaska is a seismically active area with many volcanoes, some of which Hibbens himself had seen erupting, and it seems not unnatural that Hibbens assumed that the ash which he saw in the mucks came from volcanoes. One problem with this explanation is that the known volcanoes did not massively erupt world wide around this time. Another problem with this explanation is that several Native American peoples clearly remember that the dust which Hibbens saw came from a comet.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
9/5/2017 06:28:37 pm

Hi Paul -

"In addition, I regard it as highly implausible that a regional or global catastrophe large (enough) to cause a mass extinction would create deposits that were limited to one outcrop".

Ah, but 43 species of mega fauna went extinct simultaneously globally, regardless of the local human populations. In sum, if the animal required a large amount of food daily, it died.

What caused that was,most likely a climate collapse caused by and impact dust loading occurring at 10,850 BCE. The earlier impact, which was on the ice sheet, did not raise an atmospheric dust load, as the impactites were washed out of the atmosphere by the water produced.

It looks like you have several problems with the data: the global Platinum Group Element layer, he carbon 14 data, the river outflow data, and the extinction data. I know its tough to accept, bu as it now sits you, your loved ones and everything you have ever done can be blown off the face of the Earth without any warning, as at Chelyabinsk.

I repeat JPL's request that the NEOcam be launched now

As David Morrison has problems with both the impact rate and
cometary impact, I am glad that he is no longer able to present himself as a neutral referee for papers on the topic.

I have never read Velikovsky, and point those interested in his nonsense to Leroy Ellenberger.

Reply
Americanegro
9/6/2017 01:00:15 am

"if the animal required a large amount of food daily, it died."

Your super scientific talk has convinced me.

But...

Bones still ≠ ivory.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
9/6/2017 02:05:30 pm

AN -

I think that it is entirely likely that I have more friends of African American descent than you do.

Americanegro
9/7/2017 08:40:56 pm

Like ebony, bones still ≠ ivory. You've just been grade-schooled.

That old standby "I've got lots of black friends." Not cool.


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    • Television Reviews >
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    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
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      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
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      • Blunders in the Sky
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      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
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      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
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    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
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      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
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    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
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        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Atrahasis Epic
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          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
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        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
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          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
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        • Hesiod's Theogony
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        • Sanchuniathon
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        • The Book of Enoch
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        • Aelian's Various Histories
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        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
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          • Sardinia and Atlantis
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          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
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          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
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          • Rebuttal to Termier
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          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
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          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
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          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
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        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
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      • Religious Conspiracies >
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        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
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        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
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          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
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        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
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        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
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        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
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        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
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        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
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        • Mexican Mythology
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        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
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        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
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        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
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        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
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      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
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        • The Moon Hoax
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        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
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      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
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      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
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