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Greg Little Claims to Have Found the First Ancient Astronaut Theorist, Except That He Didn't

9/8/2014

73 Comments

 
Regular readers will remember Dr. Greg Little as the writer who is currently promoting material about prehistoric giants and before that had investigated Atlantis as channeled by Edgar Cayce. He’s also the author of articles specifically criticizing me by name for not agreeing with his preferred analysis of so-called giant skeletons. Little is back this month with a new article in Alternate Perceptions magazine (Sept. 2014) that is apparently meant to challenge my view, in The Cult of Alien Gods (2005), that H. P. Lovecraft’s fiction was instrumental in the development of the modern ancient astronaut theory. I say “apparently” because Little refers to my work only elliptically, complaining of “various bloggers and writers have attempted to credit the idea of ancient astronauts to some person who is, for one reason or another, a favorite of the writer.” From the evidence of the article, it seems clear that I am one of the writers he has in mind.
Little traces the idea of ancient astronauts to various sources, and there is relatively little (if one may pardon the pun) to disagree with except where Little presumes greater familiarity with the literature than he actually has. His candidate for the inventor of ancient astronauts is Emanuel Swedenborg, a Swedish theologian and mystic. Swedenborg was not an ancient astronaut theorist; if anything, his views were a proto-Theosophy. He claimed to have met beings from the Moon, Jupiter, Venus, and other bodies from the solar system who had spiritual form but manifested in physical bodies from time to time on the earth. This is quite similar to the beings of air that supposedly manifested for Fazio Cardano centuries earlier from some other realm and gave lectures in Renaissance Italy (Gerolamo Cardano, De Subtilitate, book 19).

According to Little, “While a few modern writers want to credit others for the earliest depictions of life on other planets and the idea that these beings had and were visiting and influencing earth, the fact is that Swedenborg was the first.” And yet Swedenborg was not the first to propose life on other planets, or that said life interacted with humanity. The ancient Greeks speculated on the concept, and Lucian, in his satirical True History, wrote of moon men who were fighting with the inhabitants of other planets for control of the celestial bodies. Famously, Christians placed angels among the spheres of the planets, as Dante made quite clear in his Paradiso where the various angels and spirits live on the various planets until Dante passes beyond the celestial sphere to the throne of God. Nicole Oresme (d. 1382) and Nicholas of Cusa (1401-1464) are often suggested as the first Christian extraterrestrial theorists. Among the Jews, the Talmud claimed the existence of 18,000 planets. Hasdai Crescas wrote of aliens on other worlds in 1555, and the Sefer Habrit, written around the time of Swedenborg, similarly argued for inhabited worlds. In Japan, the myth of the “Bamboo-Cutter and the Moon Child” from the tenth century CE specifically claimed that beings from the moon came down to earth and mated with humans. If you’re interested, I collected many proto-science-fiction stories of early moon people in an anthology called Moon Men back in 2012.

Swedenborg offered nothing that Dante hadn’t suggested, except that Swedenborg’s spirit beings were slightly more material than the angels of nine spheres.

Little next surveys late nineteenth century science fiction and notes the presence of extraterrestrials in it, as though the ground hadn’t been primed by Percival Lowell’s claim to have discovered an advanced and ancient civilization on Mars just a few years before the spate of Martian-themed fiction began. He also represents the novel Aleriel (1883) by W. S. Lach-Smyrza as the story of Venusians who influenced Christianity, though so far as I can tell the Venusian hero does not claim Venusian influence on the early Church but rather the space beings’ love of Christian values.  Little further decides to overemphasize the importance of Bulwer-Lytton’s Coming Race (1871), despite it having nothing to do with aliens, because of its connection to Theosophy. Little credits the book for its influence but seems unaware that Bulwer-Lytton was building on magic underground civilization novels and nonfiction dating back at least five decades before Coming Race was ever published, including the nonfiction claims of John Cleves Symmes, Jr. and Jeremiah N. Reynolds and Capt. Adam Seaborn’s 1820 novel Symzonia.

But Little isn’t done complaining about my ideas:
In the 1960 book, “The Morning of the Magicians,” a book often wrongly credited as the fundamental starting point for the modern explosion of the ancient astronauts idea, the influence of Bulwer-Lytton’s book is apparent and even mentioned. “The Morning of the Magicians” was an influential book, but those knowledgeable of ufology know that the theory had already been fully presented.
Little misunderstands the difference between the spark that set off a popular movement and the first proposal of an idea. Henry Ford did not invent the automobile, but it is impossible to write a history of automobiles without talking about him as popularizing them. As I wrote in Cult of Alien Gods, the ancient astronaut theory as we know it had been developed by the Theosophists (with their ships full of invading Venusians) and by Charles Fort (who wondered if earth were a prison planet with Martians for wardens), not to mention the works of H. P. Lovecraft—who is also “even mentioned” in Morning of the Magicians and who is more directly related to ancient astronauts than Bulwer-Lytton.

Little also makes much out of dentist John Ballou Newbrough’s Oahspe: A New Bible (1882), which postdates Blavatsky’s Theosophy, as given in Isis Unveiled (1876—of which Little is unaware, thinking she began with Secret Doctrine twelve years later), and is a semi-Christianized parallel to Theosophy, with angels from other worlds flying to earth in ships and influencing the prehistory and evolution of humanity for Jehovah, pretty much like the way Blavatsky had Eastern-derived spirit beings do the same thing. Newbrough’s angels are former mortals from this and other worlds who attained spiritual enlightenment, like the Ascended Masters of Theosophy. Little would like us to read the angels as ancient astronauts, which in a sense they are, at least as much as Blavatsky’s Ascended Masters, who predate these guys by several years and adapt Eastern beliefs about rising to the rank of Buddha—not unlike Greek heroes or Christian saints. But why might these angels be ancient astronauts but not those of Dante or the goddess of the Japanese Bamboo-Cutter myth? The “fire ships” used by the angels that fascinate Little are quite clearly derived from the chariots of fire found in the Bible and in ancient myths as the conveyances of God or the sun god. One of these fire-ships, the Seraphim, opens the gates of heaven and let water pour in from the ethereal seas (which is why boats were needed in the sky!), prompting the Great Flood (Osiris 5:15).

Little correctly cites Morris K. Jessup as a 1950s proponent of the ancient astronaut theory, but he was not the only one, or even the first. The religious crank John Miller distributed pamphlets claiming that Bible miracles were the result of flying saucers, and George Van Tassel and George Adamski offered visions of aliens visiting earth in the past in connection with spiritual claims. Frank Edwards simply fabricated evidence for ancient astronauts in Stranger Than Science (1959). Outside the English speaking world, Soviet speculators like Matest M. Agrest offered ancient astronaut theories much closer to (and inspiration for) those used in Morning of the Magicians. The French explorer Henri Lhote claimed ancient Martian influence in the Sahara in 1958.

Little’s mistake in logic is akin to saying that because there were so many different anthropoid species that could have given rise to human beings, there is no reason to pay special attention to the one that did. This can be best illustrated by looking at the events in reverse order to see why Morning of the Magicians (and thus H. P. Lovecraft) is more important for today’s ancient astronaut theory than Jessup or Swedenborg.

The modern ancient astronaut theory takes its shape from the popular version of ancient astronauts made familiar to the American public via the documentary In Search of Ancient Astronauts (1973), hosted by Rod Serling. It is to this day the most watched ancient astronaut program of all time, capturing more than one-third of all American viewers watching TV that night—tens of millions of viewers. This documentary was explicitly based on Erich von Däniken’s Chariots of the Gods and was in fact an edited version of a 1970 German documentary about Chariots of the Gods. Around the same time, the National Enquirer ran a serialization of Chariots of the Gods, sending its message to its millions of readers. It remains the most-read ancient astronaut book of all time. Quite literally no other ancient astronaut book comes close in terms of direct and indirect exposure, even though it was neither the first nor the best of the lot. It happened to have great publicity due to a coincidence of timing—Serling came across it right when NBC was canceling his Night Gallery. Were it not for the network’s lack of faith in a horror series that adapted Lovecraftian material, the ancient astronaut theory might never have made it to TV in the hugely successful form it did.

Von Däniken, in turn, was eventually forced to acknowledge—after many complaints—that he had borrowed much of the “evidence” in Chariots from Robert Charroux (himself influenced by Morning of the Magicians) and from Morning of the Magicians itself. This is why Morning of the Magicians is more important than Jessup, whose work has been largely forgotten.

Morning was especially important because it folded into the ancient astronaut idea threads drawn from occult Nazism and from Atlantis/Lost Civilization theories, creating a matrix of ideas that provided the template for later writers. The authors, Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier, were not the first to do this, but they were the most influential. In turn, they explicitly cite the weird fiction of H. P. Lovecraft and the Arthur Machen as providing the framework through which they approached, interpreted, and understood fringe ideas. Lovecraft provided the vessel that transmitted the ancient aliens of Theosophy to the authors, and his key contribution was to strip the idea of the quasi-spiritual, grounding the idea in archaeology and history and making it seem more plausible and scientific—something that mid-century ancient astronaut books tried to emulate, though Ancient Aliens does not. Again, Lovecraft was not the only person to do this—Agrest, for example, took a similar (nonfiction) approach—but Lovecraft was Pauwels’s and Bergier’s entry point. Bergier, for example, claimed (probably falsely) to have been corresponding with Lovecraft about weird fiction and ancient astronauts in the 1930s.

Thus, by working backward we can see that out of many possible paths that the ancient astronaut theory could have taken, one stood out. It is because one succeeded where the others failed that I and others have placed greater weight on it than on the competing versions that failed to ignite the same public fascination.

73 Comments
spookyparadigm
9/8/2014 07:45:06 am

I read it, and had some of the same critiques.

But to be fair, if you aren't separating ufology from ancient aliens, the importance of Bulwer-Lyton is clearer. He inspired much of what inspired Shaver, and Shaver/Palmer are UFOs, IMO. There is a lot of occult soup out there, something like UFOs would have emerged in the post-WWII era. But the flying saucers that did emerge came out of Palmer (including Palmer's associations with Kenneth Arnold), and Palmer had primed that pump with Shaver.

Reply
666
9/8/2014 07:46:47 am

Amazing Stories, Fate magazine

Reply
Jason Colavito link
9/8/2014 07:58:49 am

Undoubtedly Bulwer-Lytton was important in that sense, but Little seemed to be claiming him for ancient astronauts and didn't really make much of a case for the connection, since I guess that would imply that UFOs (flying saucers) emerged from (at least) semi-fictional material that had nothing originally to do with extraterrestrials. As you've noted many times, the underground world theme sits somewhat uneasily with the space brothers/sky monsters theme even though they are frequently tied together since the underground people don't necessarily have to be aliens.

Reply
spookyparadigm
9/8/2014 10:45:00 am

Yeah, I know. I try to be at least a little charitable at times. :)

EP
9/8/2014 08:14:33 am

I'd say Little basically paraphrased Wikipedia, but Wikipedia is a lot more thorough on the issue...

You should check out his other article in the same issue of AP, where he talks about how contemporary archaeologists have totally figured out what the Moundbuilders literally believed about the afterlife and space travel.

Reply
666
9/8/2014 09:41:30 am

>>>Moundbuilders literally believed about the afterlife and space travel<<<

Let's not discuss what the Moundbuilders really believed

spookyparadigm
9/8/2014 10:51:47 am

Here I go again ....

To be fair, there has been a sea change in how Southeastern prehispanic iconography is handled. Work like that of Vin Steponaitis on Moundville has indeed gone substantially into the territory Little mentioned. If you visit the Moundville museum (the new one) it is heavily embedded in the messaging there. I've seen Steponaitis speak and have visited his excavations, kidding somewhat that he's following the Maya archaeology model in the footsteps of Linda Schele etc.. But that's not far off the mark, there is a definite change on treating Southeastern ideology as a lot more important, tying it to the ethnohistoric as well as patterns in the archaeology, and emphasizing its role as religion and in personal agency more than the old "it helps explain economic differences" etc. processual adapative model.

Steponaitis' work has looked at the Moundville discs, those coppers found all over with incised artwork, that were probably made to accompany mummy bundles, and are found all over the region. They do show iconography that can be interpreted through the dense astrological ideology in question

That's got jack all to do with aliens. But this sort of more ideologically-informed interpretation, and emphasis on belief, ritual, and sacred objects is a substantial departure from when archaeologists used to talk about the "Southern Cult" or similar "neutral" terms.

EP
9/8/2014 01:13:49 pm

@ spookyparadigm

I realize what an enormous topic this is, but how would you describe your own position concerning the right principles for attributing beliefs to members of prehistoric societies, especially when the archaeological record is so fragmentary and incomplete? (Here the term 'prehistoric' feels particularly apt, since its core sense is at the heart of the special problem at issue.)

spookyparadigm
9/8/2014 02:16:56 pm

The Mississippian sites are a few centuries at most before European contact. I don't think that much changed when you can demonstrate continuity. This is where the idea of protohistoric should apply, though most of the time it means "white people were around, just not exactly here so far as we can prove"

Cahokia isn't some far distant fantasy land, it is contemporary with William the Conqueror and the Magna Carta (don't some of the usual suspects in the subject of this blog claim Cahokia as a Templar wonderland or somesuch BS?), and Moundville all but runs up to de Soto.

I believe the direct historical approach can be applied in some situations. In others deep historical traditions can demonstrate that certain concepts can have a longevity of thousands of years, even if there are distinct changes in local contextual meaning or practice. If such continuity can be observed in the archaeological record, then it is worth at least conceptually thinking about how later practices may have looked in earlier times, in different sociopolitical contexts. So long as one is tentative.

I don't think you can go back into the Pleistocene with this, and indeed a major transition such as the development of farming would in my mind be potentially sufficiently disruptive to such a tradition (lesser changes could be too, but there seems to be a lot of geographical continuity the world over, though this begins to fall apart with mass audiovisual media in the 20th century).

Work from your evidence, but I would suspect continuity when the evidence doesn't dictate otherwise. At the same time, understand the importance of (a) substructural and structural underpinnings, and (b) the way ideas can be harnessed to specific individuals and institutions through agency (not a return to the Great Man perspective, but there are enough examples of radical transformations to make the point).

Don't try to find some kind of spiritual wisdom in such reconstructions, as you'll just build what you want to find.

And there is also the issue of audience. For actual research on which you will build further research and interpretation. Be cautious. But when interpreting the past for your other audiences, let a good story flow so long as you don't abuse or ignore the evidence. Many archaeologists, especially of the Boomer generation, think their job is to be purposely boring. This is part of why we have the problems we do.

EP
9/8/2014 02:46:03 pm

My question wasn't so much about continuity of beliefs as about their content. Sure we may have all kinds of good methodological reasons to work on the assumption of continuity. But continuity of *what*? We may, with luck, produce relatively complete behavioral reconstruction, but what further basis (if any) do we have for attributing belief (as opposed to largely formal ritualistic practice), literal or figurative, esoteric or exoteric?

I ask because I am generally skeptical about most speculation (even by otherwise level-headed people) about the details of a given prehistorical culture's beliefs or values - even when we have a relatively clear picture of its burial or sacrificial practices, say. I mean, it's hard enough for anthropologists studying people alive today!

spookyparadigm
9/8/2014 03:59:02 pm

"have for attributing belief (as opposed to largely formal ritualistic practice), literal or figurative, esoteric or exoteric?"

What people believe isn't in the subject, IMO. It's what they do, which of course is entangled in belief, can be guided by it, but may be guided and shaped by many other factors. Is disbelief in evolution in America a "heart-felt" belief, a shibboleth of partisanship, an act of defiant identity-making against perceived elites, or following along with community standards? In what contexts does it matter? These are complex questions as you say amongst the living, never mind the dead.

So like I said, archaeology can address what people did that left some material trace. That lends itself less to mystical concerns about spiritual universals, or imaginative attempts to find what "a culture" thought (since "cultures" don't think anything), and more to how people made their lives using the tools at hand, including social and ideological tools, not just the material.

I'm not a very good theorist, but my take on it would probably fall largely into practice theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_theory

EP
9/8/2014 04:05:10 pm

It sounds like you share my skepticism, for broadly similar reasons. Needless to say, I approve! :)

Practice Theory in the sense of that Wiki article subsumes *a lot*. I don't mean to drag you into any theoretical conversations you don't wish to have, but what exactly did you mean by associating your own position with it?

spookyparadigm
9/8/2014 04:50:45 pm

More or less what I already said. Action and agency, rather than structure or function or even more nebulous concerns.

666
9/8/2014 08:05:23 am

Whirling Wheels PDF download
https://app.box.com/s/0izqiwtfskfnb5q35u4s

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Greg Little
9/8/2014 10:21:22 am

Thanks for reviewing the article, although it isn't aimed at your primary audience. I have just a few comments. All of the things I wrote come mainly from my own books (1984; 1990; 1994) and the 1979 Encyclopedia of UFOs. Wiki is considered an unreliable source for academics and scholars, although it is a good place to find released photos. I agree that I probably think I know more than I actually do. It's probably a true statement for many people. I am aware of Blavatsky's Isis Unveiled, which mentions Swedenborg at least 6 times--often at length. I read it back in the late '70s at the ARE library and took notes. But I'm unaware that anywhere in that dense book is anything that relates that beings from other worlds visited Earth and had an influence other than a couple of places where she mentioned Swedenborg's apparitions and said they were internal. Her later Secret Doctrine lays it out far more and is very "Oahspe-like" as well as more "Swedenborgian." I suspect the Oahspe sprung from earlier influences also, but that trail is hard to follow. And there are sections of the Oahspe that appear to have been directly "appropriated" by many people. As I mentioned in the article a lot of early philosophers talked about life elsewhere and there were many, many "novels" about it, all of them too numerous and non-influential to mention at length. I primarily mentioned the examples cited in early UFO literature and mentioned 20-some people who wrote about it before Von Daniken. It's an internet article, not a book. Tracing something like an idea backwards is connecting dots, and one has to determine what dots matter more than others and how they interconnect. You have chosen what you think is the most important dot. So too have I, and my method was to use the old UFO material. Anyone's method can be questioned. Last, as I have also mentioned numerous times, I have spent 25 weeks, mainly on boats in the Bahamas, looking at anything archaeological and potentially anything "Atlantis" as well as looking for crashed planes—33 found to date. It is more enjoyable than sitting in front of a computer screen and speculating.

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EP
9/8/2014 12:02:42 pm

Greg Little: "I'm on a boat!"

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Terry link
9/8/2014 03:07:56 pm

\skeptic 101: mock people and insult them, just for kicks.

EP
9/8/2014 03:13:37 pm

Sigh... Any person who didn't have a guilty conscience would simply explain their position (or say nothing at all, if what I said was absurd). By doing this you're just making yourself come across as defensive. Of your links (internet, not IRL, I'm sure) to Nazi propaganda...

Terry link
9/8/2014 03:28:51 pm

Jay is not a nazi, and neither was the link, mr anonymous.

EP
9/8/2014 03:36:22 pm

I wasn't talking about Jay. I was talking about Red Ice. And probably some other people.

666
9/8/2014 01:40:16 pm

>>>Thanks for reviewing the article, although it isn't aimed at your primary audience<<<

It's for believers, religionists

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EP
9/8/2014 03:10:06 pm

"I suspect the Oahspe sprung from earlier influences also, but that trail is hard to follow."

Pssst... It's because aliens...

All joking aside, saying that the Oahspe trail is hard to follow is basically confessing to one's incompetence. It's, like, effortless to follow.

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Shane Sullivan
9/8/2014 11:24:05 am

"Famously, Christians placed angels among the spheres of the planets ..."

Personally, I always just figured Theosophy just grew out of this.

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Jason Colavito link
9/8/2014 11:51:22 am

That was always my belief.

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sometimes they did (nim)
9/9/2014 08:31:25 am

sometimes they didn't...
(factions often varied)

EP
9/8/2014 12:00:18 pm

There is more to Theosophy than its wacky astronomy y'all! :)

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Shane Sullivan
9/8/2014 06:48:15 pm

What, like anthropology, sunken continents, and secret societies?

Silly goose, none of that is real! Only the Venusians are!

EP
9/8/2014 06:49:42 pm

You hush now, or I'll send the mechanical elves after you!

Terry link
9/8/2014 12:16:13 pm

I was really into ancient astronaut theories in early 1990s as well as so-called hidden history, ancient civilizations and UFOs. One book would lead to another and another. Early on in my quest it became apparent that Morning of the Magicians was THE book to get for a proper synthesis of all this material. They all praised it and were all influenced by it. It was a seminal publication, similar to the way Robert Temple's Sirius Mystery was over a decade later.

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EP
9/8/2014 01:22:52 pm

Terry, I'm a bit confused about the nature of the blog you linked. Could you say a little bit about it?

(I'm particularly confused because it in turn links to Red Ice Radio...)

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Terry link
9/8/2014 02:05:09 pm

Conspiracy site. Conspiracies exist; always have, always will. My site is not the topic on this post, however. I offered my own 2 cents, from a former 'believer' rather than a skeptic, because it jives with Jason's assessment. Morning of the Magicians is important to the whole edifice.

Yeah, it links to Red Ice. Reciprocal. And long before their current turn of guest selection. I'm considering what to do about it.

EP
9/8/2014 02:25:32 pm

I see... wasn't sure whether your website was a parody. On the one hand, doesn't seem *humorous* enough. On the other, you also link to the guy who writes about "The Satanic Roots of Feminism"...

So... Considering how much anti-Semitism is too much?... Carry on, I guess...

Terry link
9/8/2014 02:30:27 pm

I don't link Makow. But rest assured I'll "carry on" however I please.

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EP
9/8/2014 02:57:39 pm

You link this guy:
http://jaysanalysis.com/2014/08/04/the-satanic-roots-of-feminism/
I meant him.

Good think you reasserted your independence there. I wasn't challenging it in any way, but I'm sure you wouldn't want anyone to think you can be "bullied" into anything...

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Terry link
9/8/2014 03:01:47 pm

Who are you? What do you do? What does EP stand for and does your shit stink?

Terry link
9/8/2014 03:02:40 pm

Who are you? What do you do? What does EP stand for and does your feces stink?

Let's talk about EP for a while. I'm all ears.

EP
9/8/2014 03:05:58 pm

I can tell you what I don't do. I don't run a website that links to literal Nazi propaganda.

Beyond that, I really don't wish to fight with anyone, though perhaps you should consider why my comments apparently made you angry...

Terry link
9/8/2014 03:10:20 pm

> I really don't wish to fight with anyone

Of course not. That's why your manners are so good. Carry on.

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EP
9/8/2014 03:16:24 pm

I may be a bit "in your face" for some people's taste, but I've been completely polite with you. You, on the other hand, instantly resorted to childish insults, ad hominems, and generally imitating Pee-wee Herman.

Maybe I should take a more careful look at your website. Perhaps I was too harsh or prejudiced... :)

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BillUSA
9/8/2014 04:05:12 pm

Why don't ancient people get credit for having imaginations? Why does fiction seem to be a word reserved for written works and the arts?

Perhaps we look at every example of cave paintings, carvings, and the like with too critical an eye, or through a prejudiced lens meant to interpret what we see as the ancients realistic depictions of their life? I'm certain that may be the case for a lot of the relics of the past.

But given the hard lives the ancients lead in their time to the lives we lead today, it's probable that the need for escapism made it's way to cave wall art, statuettes, and carvings. I mean, our lives today - even as hard as they can be for some - are much easier than people could expect to live over a thousand years ago and deeper. If we need the escapism, perhaps the ancients partook of their own ways of "getting away from it all" which we may take to be actual illustrations of their lives and from which the fringe theorists twist their own tales.

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EP
9/8/2014 04:30:26 pm

Bill, you seem to suggest that denying that ancient art involved escapism somehow implies not giving ancient people credit for having imaginations. Nothing could be further from the truth. Not only is imagination involved in representing desirable possibilities (a successful hunt depicted on a cave wall, say), but a story or a visual artwork produced for educational or religious reasons requires every bit as much imagination as one that is a product of "escapism".

Moreover, while their lives certainly involved more daily struggle for survival than any of ours, this struggle was almost always so consuming and so constant that it isn't always clear whether they would have had leisure and resources enough to take time to make art for the sake of escapism. Even most art made in relatively recent historical times wasn't made primarily for the sake of escapism. In fact, it's very recently that such ideas about art and imagination began to be entertained at all.

Let no one say that I only rip on Bill for homophobia! :)

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EP
9/8/2014 04:31:51 pm

Bill, you seem to suggest that denying that ancient art involved escapism somehow implies not giving ancient people credit for having imaginations. Nothing could be further from the truth. Not only is imagination involved in representing desirable possibilities (a successful hunt depicted on a cave wall, say), but a story or a visual artwork produced for educational or religious reasons requires every bit as much imagination as one that is a product of "escapism".

Moreover, while their lives certainly involved more daily struggle for survival than any of ours, this struggle was almost always so consuming and so constant that it isn't always clear whether they would have had leisure and resources enough to take time to make art for the sake of escapism. Even most art made in relatively recent historical times wasn't made primarily for the sake of escapism. In fact, it's very recently that such ideas about art and imagination began to be entertained at all.

Let no one say that I only rip on Bill for homophobia! :)

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EP
9/8/2014 04:21:05 pm

So... Terry Melanson... In case anyone cares, Terry

(a) thinks the Freemasons are literally out to get him:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Freemasonry.htm

(b) thinks US intelligence's surveillance capabilities are a metaphorical "All-Seeing Eye", which of course means they have something to do with the Illuminati (whose symbol is it supposedly is):
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Paranoid.htm

(c) thinks "the illegal immigration movement" picked May 1st for their demonstrations because Pagans/Illuminati/Socialists (Lou Dobbs is right, you guys!):
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/2014/05/16/may-day-and-the-posthumous-influence-of-the-illuminati/

(d) thinks public education is controlled by the Skull and Bones society and is a system for indoctrinating children into the Masonic "New Thought" worldview:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/social_change_agents.htm

(e) also, Terry is an Ancient Astronaut theorist (the kind who brings elves and fairies into the picture), or at least used to be back in the day:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/UFOs/past.html

...At this point I got bored.

So... yeah.

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Terry link
9/8/2014 05:02:47 pm

No one cares. So ... yeah. Anonymous is mighty internet sleuth. Oooh.

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EP
9/8/2014 05:25:43 pm

If so, then no one cares about what you have to say about these important topics, so... you sure showed me, I guess...

Only Me
9/8/2014 07:49:34 pm

I care, Terry.

It seems your main contributors, Paul and Phillip D. Collins have made quite the investment into conspiracy theories. I guess Paul's studies of "suppressed history and the shadowy undercurrents of world political dynamics for roughly eleven years" has been a boon to your website.

Since the Bavarian Illuminati-an organization for which there is no evidence of its survival after 1785-is part of your website's "Secret Societies" dropbox, have you read the works of Mark Dice, David Icke, Texe Marrs, Ryan Burke, Jüri Lina and Morgan Gricar?

I ask, because we all know Icke is obsessed with Reptilians, Dice is a 9/11 Truther and Marrs sells anti-Semitic literature from his ministry website. Lina appears to be more focused on Freemasonry and Karl Marx.

I've often found that those who go *looking* for something, be it aliens, conspiracies, etc., often find it. That's why the backgrounds of authors (like above) are important to me. I see anti-government sentiment, bigotry and even the need for all-powerful, inhuman puppet masters.

Is your anger toward EP *only* about his tone, or, is it because you share some of the beliefs of the aforementioned authors...and making that known is uncomfortable for you?

Terry link
9/8/2014 08:07:21 pm

I specialize in the Bavarian Illuminati, and take its history seriously. So the answer is NO to all the aforementioned conspiracy theorists. They do not what they are talking about.

That said, the Illuminati didn't ceased to exist in 1785 as wikipedia laughingly asserts. The Bavarian government instituted their prosecutions of the Illuminati beginning in 1784 with the first edict, the second edict against them was in 1785, a third was in 1787 and a fourth was in 1790. When Weishaupt fled to Saxe-Gotha he gave the reins of the society over to J. J. C. Bode. The latter continued the Illuminati activities until his death in 1793. After that basically faded away. The only real continuity of the Illuminati was inspiration for later revolutionary societies who desired to emulate their conspiratorial methods. See my book, my website in the sig, and here for further research:

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Articles/Militant_Masonry.htm

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Articles/Militant_Masonry-2.htm

Terry link
9/8/2014 08:56:21 pm

The conspiracy site is being reorganized. My research and methodology has matured. Basically the only authors I will be keeping on from the past is the Collins brothers and myself. All of the above linked to by anonymous will not be accessible anymore, and they currently aren't in the new design. Slowly it's being populated with choice selections from the past and new things when they are written.

What I'm going for is a more a scholarly approach, exemplified by a new author Will Banyan:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/tag/will-banyan/
and my recent work.

The number one rule I try and stick by now is always go to the primary source, and if a secondary is all you can find never let it be from a conspiracy theorist. It takes me months and months to research and put together a piece. Banyan too has been working for over a year on a humongous article about the Bilderberg group utilizing primary documents from the meetings and all the scholarly books and articles ever written about them. Scholarly conspiracy research is possible, if done right. It just takes longer.

THE ANTI-FEDERALIST PAPERS
9/11/2014 04:08:36 am

The Freemasonry practiced by Benjamin Franklin and George Washington changes after the presidency of James Monroe. The rise of the Anti-Masonic Party changes the political dialogue. It may very well be that Albert Pike totally invented a secret society that had no connection to the "rites" practiced by Revolutionary War era Freemasons, that bedeviled Parson Brownlow the governor of Tennessee, which led to Congressional Hearings concerning the instances of domestic terrorism committed in its early phase. Some scholars want to find a linkage that maybe isn;t...

EP
9/8/2014 07:23:56 pm

Also, Terry saw fit to publish this on his website (publish, not link!) just the other day:

"In their own way, the MJ-12 documents are like the Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion to the Ufology community. We cannot firmly confirm or deny the authenticity of either, yet we would be foolish to completely toss them aside without considering the deeper implications expressed within both of these puzzling and detailed texts."

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/2014/09/07/from-seance-to-science-a-brief-history-of-social-control/

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Terry link
9/8/2014 07:54:08 pm

Trolled the entire site did ya, for jews or zion or the like, and that's all you could come up with. Poor poor mudslinger.

It's an interview with Phillip and Paul Collins. The statement was within a question from the interviewer. His words not theirs. The Collins brothers views are on Zionism and anti-semitism are fully expressed within the interview.

--
Paul: For instance, many anti-Semitic researchers claim that the ‘Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion’ were written over a course of three days at a Zionist conference. The argument falls apart under scrutiny. There were 197 Jewish delegates to the Zionist conference in question. You could find among this group both orthodox and liberal thinkers. You could even find anarchists. The idea that you could get 197 diverse individuals to agree upon and put to paper a central agenda in three days time strains credulity. ...

Phillip: Phillip: I am really careful when approaching the topic of Zionism. While it is definitely a flawed political movement, it is by no means any sort of enclave of monolithic thought. There are many anti-Jewish racists who cite Zionism as evidence for some sort of “Jewish conspiracy.” The truth is that, although fraught by the corruption endemic to just about all political movements, Zionism is neither an unerring or monolithic conspiracy. There are several strains of thought that populate Zionism, all of which I believe are problematic. Critiques of Zionism are certainly justifiable, especially in light of the racial disparities between Jews and Palestinians stemming from Israel’s implementation of Zionist policies. However, this does not constitute some malevolent “Jewish conspiracy.”

As for Judaism, I believe it is important for us as Christians to recognize the shadows and types in the Torah. The Old Testament is replete with portraits of the coming Messiah. Discerning this thematic thread really allows us to see the divine inspiration in the writing of the Scriptures.
--

Since you're promoting my site, the least you could do is link to my book on the Illuminati and help with sales:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0977795381/conspiracyarc-20/

And the accompanying website:
http://www.bavarian-illuminati.info/

Here's one article I wrote in 2010 that skeptics will appreciate:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Articles/Pike-Mazzini_Three-World-Wars.htm

EP
9/9/2014 04:32:40 am

No, I came up with more stuff, but it's kinda repetitive *and* doesn't really have the punch of elves and fairies. You're still endorsing the work of people who consider the authenticity of the Protocols less important than their content (sort of like Jan Van Helsing). Also, when you say:

"I believe it is important for us as Christians to recognize the shadows and types in the Torah."

you're speaking for yourself, I hope.

Maturation is a slow process. If you really grew out of believing in fairies, then you may have reached the mental age of my little cousin. While I'll believe it when I see it, glad you plan to "reoorganized" your site after our little chat. Carry on "carrying on however you please", please.

Clint Knapp
9/9/2014 05:21:32 am

"The Old Testament is replete with portraits of the coming Messiah. Discerning this thematic thread really allows us to see the divine inspiration in the writing of the Scriptures."

Logically flawed. Why should the presence of a theme in one collection of texts necessitate the divinity of its message because it is corroborated in a later text written by people familiar with the original?

For a self-described "former believer", this is a particularly belief-driven argument, not at all consistent with your newfound "scholarly approach". Or are we to understand your "former believer" status only extends to the ancient astronauts and ufology?

By the way, for anyone interested, Will Banyan writes conspiracy theories about David Rockefeller and the New World Order for Nexus Magazine. I hope most readers here are familiar with that particular bastion of poor scholarship, bad medicine, and pseudoscience.

EP
9/9/2014 05:39:51 am

Totally, man!

Nexus reviewed Terry's book, actually. Alongside an article on mermaid and two reviews of Frank Joseph:

https://www.nexusmagazine.com/products/nexus-magazines/volume-17/nexus-vol-17-no-4-detail

EP
9/9/2014 06:11:03 am

Y'all really owe it to yourselves to read Terry Melanson's take on Michael Richards's infamous racist outburst:

"Richards’ conduct might ultimately stem from his association with Freemasonry... As an official researcher for Masonry, Michael Richards is well aware of [the racism and alleged KKK ties of Gen. Albert Pike, a prominent 19th century Southern Mason]; and perhaps – as evidenced by his antics at the comedy club – even sympathetic to the cause... Rather than making a good man a better man (as the selling point goes), Freemasonry’s elitist dogma has corrupted Richards’ morals."

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/2014/06/19/michael-richards-freemason-shriner-racist/

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John
9/9/2014 06:28:56 am

These epistemology discussions are great. You can much better understand the reasoning behind crazy thoughts when you understand the history. Thanks Jason.

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666
9/9/2014 08:21:57 am

>>"The Old Testament is replete with portraits of the coming Messiah. Discerning this thematic thread really allows us to see the divine inspiration in the writing of the Scriptures."<<<

This is staple content of warehouses and warehouses of Theological books.



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EP
9/9/2014 08:54:54 am

Terry Melanson also has a soft, lighthearted side (as you would expect from a man who believes in fairies). For example, he was a runner-up in RENSE.COM's Halloween Splash Art Contest.

http://rense.com/1.halloween04/contest2.htm

His "Orwell-o-Lantern" is positively adorable. I bet he made it all by himself!

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Terry
9/9/2014 10:11:52 am

A cesspool insults. You hide behind an anonymous sig because you are ashamed to be associated with your behavior. Only a coward speaks to people that way.

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EP
9/9/2014 10:14:41 am

Please quote one insult I directed at you, Mr. "Does Your Shit Smell, EP, You Poor Mudslinger"?

Pointing out that you believe in fairies, associate with Red Ice, Rense, etc., and think the Masons are out to get you doesn't count. These are facts.

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Terry
9/9/2014 10:17:25 am

Anonymous Coward.

EP
9/9/2014 10:23:29 am

Anger often follows denial. I hope you work though this and rethink your life. Otherwise, by persisting in associating with the people I mentioned you risk becoming one of the people Bro. Albert Pike described so eloquently:

"One can scarcely conceive of a more disreputable or dirty occupation. The pretended authority of the bilk who practices it rests on lies. He must sustain himself by continual lying, entrap the unwary by lying, make decent men parties to fraud by lying, sell his stolen or shoddy wares by the aid of lies, must lie from the rising of the sun until the going down thereof, must live in an atmosphere of lies, be saturated with mendacity, become a walking fraud, filch money from men's pockets by lies, cheat, cozen, pilfer by lies, and be equally without conscience or shame."

Terry
9/9/2014 10:30:19 am

You're anonymous vile persona is a lie; or rather your real is and this is your true self.

EP
9/9/2014 10:33:30 am

Your last post is ungrammatical, so I'm not quite sure of what you're accusing me.

EP
9/9/2014 10:45:10 am

Also, I noticed you stopped linking to your website, Mr. Terry Melanson. Why is that?

Duckies, Duckies, Duckies...
9/11/2014 04:31:16 am

LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS. Rense got worse as the 1990s came
to a close, in the begining, as the Roswell incident was at its 50
year mark, he had way less stories about Herman Goering and
"his" art collection, he had more stories about Glen Campbell the
UFO guy. In time, his site went from being three degrees to the left of Mitt Romney to being ten degrees to the right of Dr. Goebbels. RED ICE sounds like it came into being because the core group of people thought Alex Jones knew what he was talking about. If we think of Jeff Rense as the political yardstick then RED ICE took the slippery-slide slope to the Radical Right ten times as fast as Jeff Rense did, after Col. Philip Corso dies!

Terry
9/9/2014 10:48:02 am

Replying to anonymous cowards requires speed just to get it over with.

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EP
9/9/2014 10:52:37 am

You know, you haven't really replied to anything I said. What you're doing is worse than not replying at all. (At least I'm sure that's what most people would say...)

Terry
9/9/2014 10:56:19 am

Anonymous coward interrogates, demands answers. No film at 11 - he doesn't exist.

Clint Knapp
9/9/2014 05:03:27 pm

Anonymous or not, he's still right. You're the one leveling insults and stooping to name calling. All he's done is link to material you yourself are propagating. Material of incredibly dubious origin which rightly should call into question the motivations of those creating and spreading it.

EP
9/9/2014 05:20:33 pm

Jason, do you have any idea whether/how Bergier's letters to Weird Tales in 1936 and 1937 are related to his claim to have corresponded with Lovecraft? (I have not been able to find them in the actual issues of Weird Tales, but Joshi republished them somewhere, apparently.)

Also, have you read Bergier's works specifically on Lovecraft?

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Jason Colavito link
9/10/2014 06:30:54 am

The letters in Weird Tales don't specifically mention any correspondence with Lovecraft. He had been reading Lovecraft since 1931 or 1932, having discovered "Weird Tales" at chez Gibert-Joseph. In 1936, he praised Lovecraft, and in September 1937 he wrote to mourn Lovecraft's death, stating that Lovecraft "has been so well received in France, because he was crying out against the absurdity of a scientific civilization encroaching upon man. [...] The passing of Lovecraft seems to me to mark an end of an epoch in the history of American imaginative fiction."

But as best I can tell, he didn't claim to have corresponded with Lovecraft until many years later--according to Joshi, 1961, in Planete.

I haven't read much of Bergier's work beyond his ancient astronaut stuff because a lot of it has never been translated, and while I can translate French OK, it's a lot of work and hard for sustained reading of long things.

Reply
EP
9/10/2014 06:40:53 am

Fortunately, Bergier's notes on Lovecraft are short and at least the most important one has been translated. He wrote a preface to a very important collection of French translations of Lovecraft. The preface has been reprinted separately more than once. (The collection, Démons et Merveilles, is actually cited in Morning of the Magicians. The preface, "H.P. Lovecraft, ce grand génie venu d'ailleurs", has been translated by Joshi as "Lovecraft: Genius, Outsider".)


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