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Gunnar Thompson Claims to Have Identified Medieval Scottish Lime Kiln Near Newport Tower

3/7/2015

69 Comments

 
Many of you will likely remember (Joe) Gunnar Thompson, the self-described “chief archaeologist” for the New World Discovery Institute who uses his Ph.D.—in studies related to rehabilitation counseling (his dissertation was on affirmative action compliance systems)—to give an air of academic legitimacy to diffusionist theories. (Thompson holds a master’s degree in anthropology, where he focused on linguistics, and a bachelor’s in anthropology.) Thompson, writing in his capacity as the “chief archaeologist” for the institute he operates himself, alleged in a recent letter to the Ancient America website that a medieval lime kiln has been identified in Newport, Rhode Island near the site of the colonial-era windmill fringe historians believe to be a medieval construction.
This would be news if there were a new discovery to support Thompson’s claims. Instead, Thompson himself made the identification based on photographs taken in 1898. The background is a bit confusing, but it runs something like this: According to Thompson, the lime kiln used to produce the five tons of lime that hold together the Newport Tower has never been found. He also asserts that because colonial builders reused earlier structures’ foundations for new constructions that we can therefore look for the missing kiln beneath later buildings.

So far, this is logical enough. He then identifies a candidate for where to look: the Seuton Grant House, once the oldest surviving great house in Newport before it was demolished in the 1890s. The house, built around 1670 or so, bore the name of its most famous occupant, Seuton Grant, who lived there after 1725. The Sueton Grant House was something of an architectural anomaly in Newport, for it had the only pre-1700 central stone chimney in the settlement, all the others having been made of less expensive brick.

The basement of the house was unusual for its time, being made of stone vaults in the European style. Thompson identifies these vaults as a medieval lime kiln, which he dates—based on no evidence other than his impression of a photograph—to 1370-1400 CE. Based on his viewing of the photo, he also believes the kiln ran on coal imported from Baffin Island.
The Colonial builder used the preexisting medieval lime kiln sections as a convenient foundation for three chimneys that were built above the ground floor. Photos show that the chimney superstructure is out-of-alignment by a meter on the east side; and this indicates that the foundation units of the kiln were not originally planned as part of a house foundation. Use of the structure as a kiln was determined by photos that revealed the presence of distinctive lime-kiln “vents.” These are situated above the north and south archways. These vents are common in medieval kilns that were built in the British Isles. Foundation vents of this type are otherwise totally unknown in Colonial New England.
It is not clear to me that the photograph (copied below at right with Thompson’s preferred but clearly not to scale drawing of it at left) actually shows the vents that Thompson claims to see in the blurry image. Certainly, no one who visited the site before its destruction described any vents, and if I had to guess, I’d say that they were holes where support beams ran to hold up the floor. Obviously, such beams could not run through the chimney and therefore had to terminate somewhere. That the holes are spaced just wider than the fireplace above (and thus outside the zone where the beams might catch fire) makes me suspect this was their function, though I am sure there are some experts in colonial architecture who could tell us for sure.
Picture
Thompson's drawing of the stone chimney (left) compared to the original photograph (right).
An architectural study of the house made just before its demolition, for example, records this unusual basement. Thompson cites the study in his piece as evidence of the basement’s connection to the Newport Tower, but the original author, Norman Isham, in Early Rhode Island Houses, noted that while the arrangement of the stone construction is unusual, crucially, it is not unique:
The arrangement of the stairs is peculiar. The two piers at each side of the flight come together above the stairs in the second story. Under the stairs in the first story are the steps to the cellar, which is very interesting, for the foundation of the huge chimney instead of being a square mass of stone, is cut into on three sides by deep recesses, which are arched over to support the masonry above them. The recess on the fourth side is occupied by the stairs from the first story. We more than suspect that these arches were turned by the same mason who built the Old Stone Mill. This arrangement occurs outside of Newport only, so far as we know, in the Lippitt house in old Warwick, of which the chimney is of brick.
Thompson chooses to omit that last point since his claim is that the organization of the original kiln dictated the organization of the (presumably later) superstructure, while the Lippitt House suggests that there were purposeful reasons for the arrangement that might therefore have dictated the reason for organizing the basement thusly.

According to Thompson, the unfinished, rough character of the arches in the basement marks the site as a “distinctly” Norman-Scottish medieval kiln, for he argues that no other colonial site (barring the Newport Tower) contains wide arches made from uneven stones. He compares the Seuton Grant House to a medieval Orkney church repair in this image posted on his Marco Polo in America website in 2014, before suspected that the colonial stonework was a kiln (and thus redrew the photograph, which appears only in the altered drawing form in his subsequent claims):
Picture
A similar arch is also seen in Greenland. He declines to note that the medieval European and Greenlander arches he cites were Gothic (pointed), while the colonial arch—rough because it was never meant to be seen—looks similar in geometry to other colonial arches used to span foundations. The reason far-flung outposts of civilization had weird, rough arches when other places didn’t? It should be obvious—at the edges of civilization, masons had to work with what they had, and local conditions limited them.

So why compare a flat arch to a Gothic one? Because Orkney is where Jarl Henry I Sinclair lived, and by imagining a colonial basement as a fourteenth century Scottish kiln, Thompson can lend spurious support to his fantasy that Henry Sinclair ruled over a far-flung colony in New England and shipped Mi’kmaq people back to Europe (yes, he really claims this). As I have demonstrated many times, there is no evidence whatsoever of Henry Sinclair traveling to America, and the entire claim rests on a sixteenth century hoax that doesn’t even mention him. 
69 Comments
Shane Sullivan
3/7/2015 08:19:28 am

Giving diffusionism the benefit of the doubt for a brief moment, is it remotely realistic to think that the founders of Newport would just ignore a medieval structure in their newly settled territory? Have fringe theorists ever bothered to explain this?

Reply
EP
3/7/2015 09:03:17 am

Clearly you lack sufficient faith in the magical powers of sacred geometry :)

Reply
Paul S.
3/7/2015 12:13:05 pm

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
3/7/2015 12:18:18 pm

Thompson argues that the colonists were suppressing the truth, and that Gov. Benedict Arnold, for example, purposely appropriated the Newport Tower as his property. In other words, it's all a conspiracy!

Reply
Shane Sullivan
3/7/2015 12:41:33 pm

One would think he would just tear the tower down, rather than leaving intact for future intrepid truth-seekers to fantasize over!

Well, at least it makes slightly more sense than suppression of Welsh exploration, since Scotland wasn't a part of the Empire in the late 14th century.

EP
3/7/2015 01:18:25 pm

I'm sure they would have, but... you know... magic powers of sacred geometry... :)

Shane Sullivan
3/7/2015 02:28:52 pm

I'll take your word for it; I flunked Sacred Geometry, and barely passed Arithmancy.

Only Me
3/7/2015 04:32:15 pm

http://i.imgur.com/WahLrGX.jpg

Steve D
9/9/2017 09:24:54 pm

No one says that Thompson said any of this was a conspiracy. What he did say is that Arnold used the Stone tower as a windmill by refurbishing it and utilizing its attributes to be used as a windmill. This in no way says that the original structure was actually built for this purpose but was reinvented to serve as a windmill. Even the Native Americans who were I this area said that it was built by those who came well before those who inhabited Newport!

William M Smith
9/10/2017 10:26:54 am

Steve D - Your recent post brought me back to this site which addresses the Newport Tower. Thanks for that post sept 2017. I plan to return to Newport this fall and provide the Historical Society with new information which may add support to the Thompson film connection as well as the mortar dates. I will be presenting a working model of the tower with all the wood structures in place as well as the atrium added by Jan Barstad. Some new findings at the tower (soil core samples) support the cod fish processing. The actual 1494 Portuguese treaty reads different than the English version as it relates to navigation of the day. The tower was built in 1472 and will support the film date. The tower was built in consealment from passing ships to disguise the fish processing of the day as it sets 30 feet lower than the ground to its east. It was never built or modified for use as a windmill and no findings of construction or artifacts would support this. Their are iems found in the Godfrey dig that support a pre-columbian period. Stay tuned as the Wolter supporters eat crow.

A.D.
3/7/2015 10:21:52 am

Isn't that the guy from that youtube video where he mistakes sorghum in egypt with new world "corn" trying to make a diffusionist claim?These cons are relentless.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
3/7/2015 12:18:40 pm

It is the same guy.

Reply
mhe
3/7/2015 01:41:24 pm

If I understand this correctly Mr. Thompson believes that Mesoamerica was the Egyptian Land of Punt and maize was brought back to Egypt for cultivation. The evidence being certain Egyptian depictions of plants that he believes look like maize.

That's the corniest idea I've run across in quite some time.

Reply
Shane Sullivan
3/7/2015 01:46:27 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CdVTCDdEwI

EP
3/7/2015 02:06:08 pm

mhe, putting the PUN in PUNT :P

Tracy Pearson
3/8/2015 04:16:07 am

In the Isham quote above he mentions the Old Stone Mill - is th the Newport Tower?

Reply
titus pullo
3/8/2015 07:18:06 am

Someone call Jim Egan at the Newport Tower Museum. Maybe this is evidence for his John Dee theory.

Seriously, you have two problems with prior to colonial times construction of the tower, first there is no mention of it from any of the early explorers to the area and second, despite all the digs around it, no artifacts have been found supporting a pre colonial construction. It is a neat place to visit (Newport is a nice town to spend a few days in the summer and there is fantastic cafe just a few hundred feet away-the Cafe Belview) and Jim is a good guy to stop by his museum about 100 feet from the Tower and chat.

Reply
william smith
3/8/2015 04:20:05 pm

Titus - I would like to address the two items you indicate are not present to sho pre-colonial existance of the Newport Tower. 1- (document of the tower) - This can be found in chapter three of the 1494 treaty between Spain and Portugal. attached link scroll down to the English translation and read very carfully chapter 3 and see if you find the tower mentioned and a stone 370 leagues west of this tower (http://www.sealegacy.com/Tratado%20De%20Tordesilhas.pdf) The other concern you have is pre-colonial findings at the tower, Many items in the 1948 Godfrey dig predate the colonial period. These items make up components to the lodestone compass and cod fish bones than have not been dated, also three mortar test of six show a date 1470.

Reply
lurker uncloaking
3/8/2015 04:51:28 pm

Here is what you claim to be a reference to this 'tower' existing prior to colonial times:

" And should, perchance, the said line and bound from pole to pole, as aforesaid, intersect any island or mainland, at the first point of such intersection of such island or mainland by the said line, some kind of mark or tower shall be erected, and a succession of similar marks shall be erected in a straight line from such mark or tower, in a line identical with the above-mentioned bound. These marks shall separate those portions of such land belonging to each one of the said parties; and the subjects of the said parties shall not dare, on either side, to enter the territory of the other, by crossing the said mark or bound in such island or mainland."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/15th_century/mod001.asp

Unfortunately for your claim this references the tower, the line referred to comes nowhere near New England, and in fact does not strike land prior to Greenland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas#mediaviewer/File:Spain_and_Portugal.png

william smith
3/9/2015 03:47:25 am

lurker - At the time of the treaty 1494, pole lines were identified by the magnetic declination reading between true north and magnetic north. The magnetic declination lines are isometric and do not follow north south pole lines. They do go from pole to pole and at the latitudes of 41 degrees north (Tower) and 46 degrees north (KRS) You can measure the distance of 370 leagues (1015 miles at the 46 degrees north between these two pole lines. A normal drift to the east exist for magnetic declination of about 50 miles per 100 years. You can use a magnetic declination calculator to see what the readings would have been in 1494. The same reading at the Newport Tower of magnetic declination on the 41 degree latitude would be found at the Cape Verdie Islands as measured in 1494. Most people feel the treaty was only to protect land in Brazil claimed by the portuguese. The builders mark at the Newport Tower is a small triangle stone at the top 14 degrees west of true north. In 1472 the builder placed this stone by the use of a lodestone compass. Today the magnetic declination at the Tower is about 17 degrees. This change of 3 degrees would equate to the 500 or more years age of the tower.
I do plan on returning to the Newport Tower to confirm my measurements as well as new builder alignment marks that will confirm my readings. I also would like to support Gunnar Thompson on his research and finding of a potential kilm that may have been in operation during the tower construction. Note: The powder explosion in the colonial period when the Dutch were storing supplies in the tower did not destroy the north top section of the tower where the builders mark (Triangle Stone) is located. Your translation of the treaty may be from a lawers point of view that does not understand the limits of navigation in 1494.

lurker uncloaking
3/9/2015 05:59:01 am

A nice and wordy try, but once waded through, you concede that the actual line through the pole is not the line of magnetic north, and that the navigators of the time knew the difference and could determine true north, which is what they were tasked to establish under the treaty. Even if the building happens to be approximately where magnetic north might have led, it would be irrelevant.

Things get even stranger as one goes deeper. You start by claiming the treaty establishes pre-colonial provenance of the building through directing that, should land be encountered in the survey, a tower is to be built. Thus your initial argument requires the building to have been erected after 1494. But now you claim someone placed a marker stone near the building in 1472, nigh on a quarter century before the treaty you claimed directed the tower to be built. Or are you going to try and claim the building was already there providentially on the treaty line, or that it was somehow known to those drawing up the treaty and sought as a landmark?

One thing that is sure, had such a building been encountered in surveying the treaty line, or built in consequence of surveying the treaty line as a marker, there would be no end to the contemporary documentation of the fact. No one anywhere would be debating the matter; it would be cut and dried, black letter, even in the grammar school textbooks stuff. It would have been, among other things sure to have been noted, the treaty surveyors credited with first landfalls in the region, rather than a succession of persons employed by England and France....

titus pullo
3/9/2015 07:40:06 am

William,

I have never seen any evidence published of pre 17th century dating findings. What method was used? Carbon 14? For the shells used? And what digs found pre 17th century artifacts? I'm keeping an open mind but so far what documented evidence is public that supports a pre 17th century build?

Only Me
3/10/2015 03:52:28 am

Titus, the Newport Tower had mortar samples taken for C-14 dating, with control samples taken from the Wanton-Lyman-Hazard (WLH) House, known to have been built between 1676-1698. While I can't find the exact website for the results (I last looked at this almost a year ago) the tower samples yielded dates between 1410-1930. Even the WLH samples yielded dates of 1730, 1810, 1920 and 1945, according to J. Huston McCulloch. Because of these results, Jan Heinemeier and Högne Jungner's dates of 1635-1698 for the tower remain controversial.

As for the Godfrey excavation, *none* of the items were older than 17th century and another excavation by the Chronognostic Research Foundation in 2006 yielded more than 2,000 artifacts (objects and fragments of ceramic, glass, metal, stone and animal bone), the majority dating to the 18th and 19th centuries, with a small number going back to the 17th.

Only Me
3/13/2015 04:03:39 am

Just to further clarify the point "lurker uncloaking" made, the meridian for the Treaty of Tordesillas would be the 47th meridian west of Greenwich today. The Newport Tower lies on the 71st meridian west of Greenwich, so it can't serve as a marker in compliance with the treaty.

lurker uncloaking
3/15/2015 04:43:02 am

Thanks for driving that home a bit, 'EP'.

It seems to me to highlight the truly sloppy understanding of, and use of, evidence among the fringe folk.

The man was asked to address the lack of any mention of the tower in pre-colonial or early colonial sources.

He offered as mention of the tower, as actual documentation of the tower, the third article of a treaty concluded in 1494 which directed that if, in course of surveying a meridian of longitude, land were encountered, it should be marked with a tower or some other construction equivalent to a boundary stone.

Not only is the line to be surveyed far from the location of the tower, by a degree no competent navigator seeking true north in the fifteenth century would have tolerated, it could not have resulted in the tower being built until after 1494 --- and the man seems to believe, and frequently state, that the tower actually was built in 1472!

Put bluntly, this sort of thing makes it impossible to take at face value any claim regarding what evidence shows, or even what evidence is, this man makes.

David Brody
3/15/2015 05:12:58 am

Lurker and EP--Thank you both for posting on this. I am a card-carrying member of the so-called "fringe history" brigade, yet even I recognize that the argument that the Treaty of Tordesillas makes reference to or relates in any way to the Newport Tower is an absurd one. I have pointed this out on other discussion forums to the poster yet he continues to ignore the plain language and meaning of the treaty. The Tower is a fascinating structure, one that I personally believe to be pre-Columbian. But this kind of shoddy analysis undermines intelligent and serious efforts to unravel its mysteries.

william smith
3/15/2015 07:19:11 am

lurker- At the time of the treaty in 1494 the tools for measuring location on the earth were quite different than today. Latitudes were very close to accurate because of the use of the Astrolabe which was developed in 600BC. Longitude was quite different because no true instrument was capable of reading position of longitude. If you understand the function and use of the tools for measurement in 1494 you will read the treaty quite different.

lurker uncloaking
3/15/2015 08:19:38 am

The variation between true north and magnetic north was known in the late fifteenth century. No navigator worth his salt cod would have made the error you are banking on.

It is true that determining longitude was difficult, since at bottom the only reliable way to do so is to know exactly what time it is at one location relative to another. This is why the treaty lays stress on having a committee of experts, drawn from both camps, Spain and Portugal, working in mixed teams, to determine that the specified longitude has been found. But once that had been agreed upon, sailing true north or true south along that line would have been done with fair precision.

Of course, the voyage directed in the treaty never actually took place, and we are only left with a variety of expressed opinions of navigators and lawyers over the next decade or so regarding its location, which vary a good deal but never come anywhere near Rhode Island.

And still, we are left with your advancing the mention in a treaty of 1494, directing that if land is found by a subsequent survey it should be marked with a tower, as documentary evidence for the building of a tower you claim was built in 1472, twenty-two years before the treaty, and before anything built by the direction of the treaty could have possibly been built.

If you actually believe the building was erected in 1472, you cannot possibly advance direction in a 1494 that a structure may need to built as a boundary marker --- at least you cannot do so and hope to be taken seriously.

And yet you did present the third article of the Tordesillas treaty as documentation of the pre-colonial period erection of the tower at Newport, Rhode Island. I know that it cannot be such because no survey of that treaty's demarcation could have possibly come near the building's location, but you cannot possibly believe it to be such documentation because the treaty could not possibly direct the building in future of a structure you claim to believe was built twenty-two years before the treaty was signed.

Only Me
3/15/2015 08:27:59 am

Reading the treaty differently seems to be your problem, William. You attribute maritime excellence to the Portuguese when it suits your argument. However, you then undermine the argument by saying the instrumentation of the day would not allow for determining longitude, and therefore, true north.

Right.

Here's how clearly they understood navigation, taken directly from the treaty itself (I will capitalize the important parts):

[a boundary or straight line be determined and drawn north and south, FROM POLE TO POLE, on the said ocean sea, FROM THE ARCTIC TO THE ANTARCTIC POLE. THIS BOUNDARY OR LINE SHALL BE DRAWN STRAIGHT, as aforesaid, at a distance of three hundred and seventy leagues west of the Cape Verde Islands, BEING CALCULATED BY DEGREES, OR BY ANY OTHER MANNER AS MAY BE CONSIDERED THE BEST AND READIEST,
provided the distance shall be no greater than abovesaid]

The treaty even spells out how this is to be done, with both parties sending the same number of ships with the same crew compliments:

[in order that the said line or bound of the said division may be made straight and as nearly as possible the said distance...These vessels shall meet at the Grand Canary Island...so that they may jointly study and examine to better advantage the sea, courses, winds, and THE DEGREES OF THE SUN OR OF NORTH LATITUDE, and lay out the leagues aforesaid, in order that, IN DETERMINING THE LINE OR BOUNDARY, ALL SENT AND EMPOWERED BY BOTH THE SAID PARTIES IN THE SAID VESSELS, SHALL JOINTLY CONCUR. These said vessels shall continue their course together to the said Cape Verde Islands, from whence they shall lay a direct course to the west, to the distance of the said three hundred and seventy degrees, measured as the said persons shall agree, and measured without prejudice to the said parties. When this point is reached, such point will constitute the place and mark FOR MEASURING DEGREES OF THE SUN OR OF NORTH LATITUDE either by daily runs measured in leagues, or in any other manner that shall mutually be deemed better. THIS SAID LINE SHALL BE DRAWN NORTH AND SOUTH AS AFORESAID, FROM THE SAID ARCTIC POLE TO THE SAID ANTARCTIC POLE.]

If their latitudes were "close to accurate", as you said yourself, then there is no way the tower comes close to being near the boundary line described in the treaty. Also, if, as you said, "no true instrument was capable of reading position of longitude", then this lack of technology doesn't support your earlier argument that "pole lines were identified by the magnetic declination reading between true north and magnetic north." So, they knew true north and magnetic north, but didn't have the means of differentiating the difference between the two, in degrees, because: no instruments.

Right. I'm done with this.

william smith
3/15/2015 09:51:26 am

Lurker and Brody - This Lawer that publishes fiction books about the Newport Tower and uses natural marks on bedrock stone that was under the soil by three feet to say it has the hooked X that makes it Templar work and his buddy Scott Wolter swears to it on the history chanel is not science.
Today - The Newport tower is located on the 41.25 latitude north and 71.10 longitude west. Using a magnetic declination calculator with todays date this location will read 14,30.42 variance to true north and south. The other point identified in the Treaty of 1494 is located 100 leagues west of Cape Verdee Islands. Converted this is 300 miles. At this location 16.06 latitude north and 29.36 longitude west the magnetic declination calculator with todays date this location will read 12,22.36 variance to true north and south. In 1472, 22 years before the treaty when the tower was built and the Kensington rune stone was placed 370 leagues west of the tower pole line to claim the land of Vinland the magnetic declination would read at the tower 17 degrees variance, this same variance would be read 100 leagues west of Cape Verdee Islands in 1472.
The facts are science supported by the 1494 treaty as well by the builders triangle stone at the top of the tower which is located 17 degrees west of true north. The tower also marks the high and low latitude of Vinland by the light that shines through the south window onto the ground at mid day sun. At the summer soltice the mid day sun light will strike the ground 16 degrees from the south wall. (16.06 southern latitude of Vinland) At the winter soltice the mid day sunlight will strike the ground north of the tower making an angle of 66.25 degrees with the south wall. (66.25 northern latitude of Vinland) Also close to Baffin Island where Pat Southerland has confirmed ancient European people were camped.

william smith
3/15/2015 10:11:53 am

In 1472 the magnetic declination isometric line of 17 degrees magnetic declination read at the Newport Tower would read the same at 100 leagues west of Cape Verdee Island. At the same time the Kensington rune stone would be placed on a magnetic declination line that read 0 variance between tru north and magnetic north. The King of Portugal and King of Denmark instructed the claiming party to mark and claim all unclaimed land (AS FAR AS THE EYE CAN SEE) this is 90 degrees around the earth from their meridian line where they started in Segral Portugal. This voyage is documented in 1472. The 1362 date in runic letters on the west boundry of Vinland was maintained from the Pal Knutson voyage 110 years earlier when he was instructed to sail to the north pole (The north pole line was where the compass reading and the true north and south reading with a sun dial agreed). Their are 4 of these lines on the earth today, they are called argon lines, they existed as long as man has measured them, however they drift to the east about 50 miles every 100 years. The amount of drift can be used to date buildings with a builders mark placed with reference to true north and magnetic north.

lurker uncloaking
3/15/2015 10:31:14 am

Now you are just being silly, and trying a lame stab at Gish Gallop.

There is no real connection between the treaty and the building, and certainly none between the treaty's direction a tower be erected as a mark of the dividing line on land if land were encountered along it, and the building, which you yourself claim was built many years before the treaty existed.

Your claim the treaty served as documentary evidence the building was constructed before colonial settlement is the only point I am engaging here.

None of the rest of this farrago concerns me, and to put it bluntly, you have, by making the absurd claim the treaty provides documentary evidence the tower was built before the colonial period, left no reason at all for a disinterested on-looker to credit any claim by you that something you cite proves some other thing.

william smith
3/15/2015 10:50:47 am

If the treaty of 1494 can explain the exact distance of 370 leagues (1,110 miles) to the west of the tower a stone marker will be placed, I find the other information in the treaty to also be accurate. Keep in mind it took two years before the Portuguese signed the treaty. Also keep in mind their was no understanding to a common means of measuring longitude as explained in the treaty. The only dating in the Godfrey dig was of the OX bone about 100 years old. No date was available on the cod fish bones or wooden knife handles or for mention of the lodestone compass parts that were used by the Portuguese to build the tower with Dutch Ell measurements. I have been through all of the Godfrey dig items and the fish hook alone is an example of pre colonial design. It has no eye on the shank, just a flat to hold the line when wrapped around the shank, like the Baske fisherman used in the 1300s. The outbreak of pneumonia in R.I. and western Wisc. is a key link. I am not aware of the date of the two post found by Jan Barsted that supports the atrium around the tower, however I am familiar with the small 52% magnetic stone found in the bottom of one hole that showed it had been exposed to fire. This was common for the magnitite used in lodestone compasses. Fire it to increase its accuracy and life.
I do not know Gunnar Thompson, however I find it very dissapointing to see many on this site use their aligator mouth to trash his or others research before they realize they have a humming bird ass.

lurker uncloaking
3/15/2015 12:00:31 pm

The treaty does no such thing as you imagine or pretend it does, Sir.

I defy anyone to read its text and conclude your statements above are fact:

Treaty between Spain and Portugal concluded at Tordesillas; June 7, 1494
Ratification by Spain, July 2, 1494.
Ratification by Portugal, September 5, 1494.

TRANSLATION.

Don Ferdinand and Dona Isabella, by the grace of God king and queen of Castile, Leon, Aragon, Sicily, Granada, Toledo, Valencia, Galiciaj Majorca Seville, Sardinia, Cordova, Corsica, Murcia, Jaen, Algarve, Algeciras, Gibraltar, and the Canary Islands, count and countess of Barcelona, lord and lady of Biscay and Molina, duke and duchess of Athens and Neopatras, count and countess of Roussillon and Cerdagne, marquis and marchioness of Oristano and Gociano, together with the Prince Don John, our very dear and very beloved first-born son, heir of our aforesaid kingdoms and lordships. Whereas by Don Enrique Enriques, our chief steward, Don Gutierre de Cardenas, chief commissary of Leon, our chief auditor, and Doctor Rodrigo Maldonado, all members of our council, it was treated, adjusted, and agreed for us and in our name and by virtue of our power with the most serene Dom John, by the grace of God, king of Portugal and of the Algarves on this side and beyond the sea in Africa, lord of Guinea, our very dear and very beloved brother, and with Ruy de Sousa, lord of Sagres and Berenguel, Dom Joao de Sousa, his son, chief inspector of weights and measures of the said Most Serene King our brother, and Ayres de Almada, magistrate of the civil cases in his court and member of his desembargo, all members of the council of the aforesaid Most Serene King our brother, [and acting] in his name and by virtue of his power, his ambassadors, who came to us in regard to the controversy over what part belongs to us and what part to the said Most Serene King our brother, of that which up to this seventh day of the present month of June, the date of this instrument, is discovered in the ocean sea, in which said agreement our aforesaid representatives promised among other things that within a certain term specified in it we should sanction, confirm, swear to, ratify, and approve the above-mentioned agreement in person: we, wishing to fulfill and fulfilling all that which was thus adjusted, agreed upon, and authorized in our name in regard to the above-mentioned, ordered the said instrument of the aforesaid agreement and treaty to be brought before us that we might see and examine it, the tenor of which, word for word, is as follows:

In the name of God Almighty, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, three truly separate and distinct persons and only one divine essence. Be it manifest and known to all who shall see this public instrument, that at the village of Tordesillas, on the seventh day of the month of June, in the year of the nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ 1494, in the presence of us, the secretaries, clerks, and notaries public subscribed below, there being present the honorable Don Enrique Enriques, chief steward of the very exalted and very mighty princes, the lord and lady Don Ferdinand and Dona Isabella, by the grace of God king and queen of Castile, Leon, Aragon, Sicily, Granada, etc., Don Gutierre de Cardenas, chief auditor of the said lords, the king and queen, and Doctor Rodrigo Maldonado, all members of the council of the said lords, the king and queen of Castile, Leon, Aragon, Sicily, Granada, etc., their qualified representatives of the one part, and the honorable Ruy de Sousa, lord of Sagres and Berenguel, Dom Juan de Sousa, his son, chief inspector of weights and measures of the very exalted and very excellent lord Dom John, by the grace of God king of Portugal and of the Algarves on this side and beyond the sea in Africa, lord of Guinea, and Ayres de Almada, magistrate of civil cases in his court and member of his desembargo, all of the council of the said lord King of Portugal, and his qualified ambassadors and representatives, as was proved by both the said parties by means of the letters of authorization and procurations from the said lords their constituents, the tenor of which, word for word, is as follows:

[Here follow the full powers granted by Ferdinand and Isabella to Don Enrique Enriques, Don Gutierre de Cardenas, and Dr. Rodrigo Maldonado on June 5, 1494; and the full powers granted by John II. to Ruy de Sousa, Joao de Sousa, and Ayres Almada on March 8, 1494.]

"Thereupon it was declared by the above-mentioned representatives of the aforesaid King and Queen of Castile, Leon, Aragon, Sicily, Granada, etc., and of the aforesaid King of Portugal and the Algarves, etc.:

[I.] That, whereas a certain controversy exists between the said lords, their constituents, as to what lands, of all those discovered in the ocean sea up to the present day, the date of this treaty, pertain to each one of the said parts respectively; therefore, for the sake of peace and concord, and for the preservation of the rela

william smith
3/15/2015 01:43:02 pm

Lurker - The complete treaty can be found by searching (sealegacy.com)

lurker uncloaking
3/15/2015 03:09:21 pm

Apparently there is a character limit on posting here, which makes it impossible to put up the full text here.

I urge anyone following this to copy and paste the link below into their address bar, and read the text of the treaty, as supplied by the Yale Law School. When you do, you will find none, repeat NONE, of the claims Mr. Smith makes concerning what its text reveals or relates to are accurate.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/15th_century/mod001.asp

Only Me
3/15/2015 03:56:06 pm

Misinterpretation of the treaty is a huge problem. I'll illustrate my point.

"The other point identified in the Treaty of 1494 is located 100 leagues west of Cape Verdee Islands."

Wrong. The "other point" is this part of the treaty:
[ And since it is possible that the ships and subjects of the said King and Queen of Castile, Leon, etc., or those acting in their name, may discover before the twentieth day of this present month of June, following the date of this treaty, some islands and mainlands within the said line, drawn straight from pole to pole, that is to say, inside the said three hundred and seventy leagues west of the Cape Verde Islands, as aforesaid, it is hereby agreed and determined, in order to remove all doubt, that all such islands and mainlands found and discovered in any manner whatsoever up to the said twentieth day of this said month of June, although found by ships and subjects of the said King and Queen of Castile, Aragon, etc., shall pertain to and remain forever in the possession of the said King of Portugal and the Algarves, and of his successors and kingdoms, provided that they lie within the first two hundred and fifty leagues of the said three hundred and seventy leagues reckoned west of the Cape Verde Islands to the above-mentioned line-in whatsoever part, even to the said poles, of the said two hundred and fifty leagues they may be found, determining a boundary or straight line from pole to pole, where the said two hundred and fifty leagues end. Likewise all the islands and mainlands found and discovered up to the said twentieth day of this present month of June by the ships and subjects of the said King and Queen of Castile, Aragon, etc., or in any other manner, within the other one hundred and twenty leagues that still remain of the said three hundred and seventy leagues where the said bound that is to be drawn from pole to pole, as aforesaid, must be determined, and in whatever part of the said one hundred and twenty leagues, even to the said poles,-they that are found up to the said day shall pertain to and remain forever in the possession of the said King and Queen of Castile, Aragon, etc., and of their successors and kingdoms; just as whatever is or shall be found on the other side of the said three hundred and seventy leagues pertaining to their Highnesses, as aforesaid, is and must be theirs, although the said one hundred and twenty leagues are within the said bound of the said three hundred and seventy leagues pertaining to the said King of Portugal, the Algarves, etc., as aforesaid.]

"If the treaty of 1494 can explain the exact distance of 370 leagues (1,110 miles) to the west of the tower a stone marker will be placed, I find the other information in the treaty to also be accurate."

Wrong again, because that is NOT what it says:
[And should, perchance, the said line and bound from pole to pole, as aforesaid, intersect any island or mainland, at the first point of such intersection of such island or mainland by the said line, some kind of mark or tower shall be erected, and a succession of similar marks shall be erected in a straight line from such mark or tower, IN A LINE IDENTICAL WITH THE ABOVE-MENTIONED BOUND] (my emphasis added.) That means the succession of markers would fall in a straight line running north to south, *not* east to west.

You can't provide a link to the treaty, invite everyone to read it, then take offense when it becomes clear your misinterpretations do not support your hypothesis.

William M Smith
3/8/2015 08:45:48 am

Gunnar Thompson has done a great job in connecting the kilm to the Newport Tower. The following link will allow you to download a 3D photo image of the tower where you can compare 10 of the arch construction to his kilm arches. Yes 10 (8 are ground floor openings and two are on the second floor, 1 over the second floor fireplace and one over the south west window). The south west window is interesting because it has an opening directly over the window used to support one end of a yard arm for unloading barrels of smoked cod fish. The arch above the second floor fire place which was used only to produce smoke also had two smoke vents for controlling the smoke. The most important fact of the second floor shallow fire place is that it is off the floor some distance over two feet which is uncommon for heating. http://www.photospherix.com/3d-view/newport-tower-360-view/ If you are convinced it is a Bennadict English wind mill or an English or Scotish Church then show your facts. If you are looking for another posability read chapter 3 in the 1494 treaty between Spain and Portugal. You can also read an engineers view of the tower in (Migration and Diffusion) http://www.migration-diffusion.info/article.php?id=222

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Matt Mc
3/8/2015 08:51:22 am

I have a colonial era well in my backyard in Washington, DC. I wonder if its construction is proof of the secret Masonic blueprint of Washington DC. It could be there is a former Masons lodge a block away that was founded in 1785.

I think it is very reasonable to make the connection I have made since it has the same amount of province as the Kiln, Newport Tower claim.

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EP
3/8/2015 10:13:31 am

Mr. Smith, I have found the secret underground pleasure labyrinth where our pre-Columbian Templar overlords did occult Satanic butt-stuff to each other.

Would you care for a photo-tour?

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Jason Colavito link
3/8/2015 01:09:38 pm

Even if you accept Thompson's claim that the basement of the building was originally a kiln, this implies nothing about it being medieval. The Newport Tower and the basement arches were declared the work of the same mason back in the 1890s, so Thompson has contributed squarely nothing here except to claim the basement as a kiln. Again: He provided no evidence of a medieval date except imagination.

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william smith
3/8/2015 01:34:30 pm

If I recall, all he was claiming was from the photos taken in the 1890s when the basement or kilm was exposed it apeard to be of the same design as the Newport Tower. Specific to the two vents and flat arch. If you have researched the Tower you would understand that the mortar volume required would have been larger than any colonial kilm known to exist. If you understood all the dating of the mortar on the Newport Tower you would also understand their are 3 dates to the late 1400s. Matt and EP - I do not know about your colonial well or about your secret underground pleasure labyrinth. I do know if you found it it is not a secrete. I also feel you are not qualified to judge Gunnar Thompson. It is best you stay with Steve Sinclair and Scott Wolter. The group of you can turn this site into a butt hole porn site. Jason - Gunnar Thompson has claimed the kilm size is the only one in history found local that has the capacity to make the quantity used in the Tower. As an engineer I feel this is important and a controbution to research of the tower.

EP
3/8/2015 01:50:26 pm

William Smith:

http://www.migration-diffusion.info/article.php?subject=astronomy&id=222

LOL

Matt Mc
3/8/2015 03:46:22 pm

I am not judging Thompson I am judging his claim. If he found a photo taken in 1890 it really was not much of a secret it might of been forgotten but not a secret as was the case of the well in my backyard which was rediscovered when we pulled records in planning an addition to my house.

Forgotten things are not a secret.

And a fantastic claim requires more proof than speculative analysis of a 140 year old photocopy of photograph.

Could the building style be similar sure they can, it could very well be a kiln used in construction of the Newport tower, The Newport tower also most likely was built in colonial times.

So first one would have to prove without question that the Newport Tower was not built in colonial times which no one has yet. So until that happens it is fair to say it is a colonial kiln from colonial times.

The burden of proof lies on those making that fantastic claims not the other way around.

Either way a 140 poor copy of a photograph is not going to prove anything.

william smith
3/9/2015 03:59:18 am

Matt - I agree with you concern about a 140 year old photo. I feel Gunnar Thompson is a messanger to share new ideas to serious people looking for the truth. If the self appointed experts on this site feel it is better to shoot the messanger rather than listen to his message so be it. I choose to not listen to the butt buddy clowns.

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EP
3/9/2015 04:02:10 am

I know. You'd rather contribute to periodicals that employ Nazi pedophiles, right?

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Matt Mc
3/9/2015 04:36:11 am

It is not about shooting the messenger it is about the message.


I mentioned my well and a well known conspiracy about Washington DC to present the example that it is just as likely that the well on my property has connections to the masonic construction of DC as the kiln has a connection to the Newport Tower. Point just because something is old does not mean it is connected to something else that is old. There is no way based on just a photograph, no matter how one theorizes, that someone can make a connection from the kiln to the Newport Tower, nor can they determine when the kiln was built. They can determine when it was destroyed and that is it.




Making a connection is a stretch to say the least, a stretch that is even more questionable because it is based on a photocopy of an old photo.

in the case of the Newport Tower the first thing that needs to be proven is that it is not colonial, something that has not been done yet. This is a case that if one wants to prove a new theory on its building they first have a disprove that existing theory. The burden of proof lies on those making the new claims. So far the only proof that has been provided is speculation muddied by its connection to other unproven theories.

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william smith
3/9/2015 04:56:38 am

Matt - The theory that the Newport Tower is a colonial wind mill has no more facts than any theory. If so you all the items found in the Godfrey dig of 1948 or the other digs by Jan Barstad later must fit the wind mill theory.

Matt Mc
3/9/2015 05:13:02 am

The accept fact is that it was build in colonial times, and nothing has been presented to disprove this fact. People do have what they see as enough to present alternative theories but nothing that has warranted enough to call into question the established fact that the Tower was built in colonial times.

I some people might think there is evidence to extend the dating of the Tower back hundreds of years but it is up to them to present enough evidence that changes the established fact. Is there enough speculation that may warrant further research into its age, possibly and if that evidence was enough there are many archeologist that would love to be the person responsible for making the evidence public.

As I said the burden of proof lies on those challenging established fact and so far while there is speculation no one has successfully done so.

william smith
3/9/2015 09:28:35 am

Matt - If I recall this post was to challenge the findings of a kilm or at least an old photo showing what may be a kilm near the Newport Tower. As you stated a interested archaeoligest may get involved to date this strange foundation and compare the mortar to other colonial buildings. I have read 3 carbon dates that indicate mortar in the tower is pre colonial. This by itself proves little because 3 other carbon dates show colonial (time of powder explosion)
If the objective of this site is to peer review all the new findings in or near the Newport Tower because some self appointed experts feel name calling and degrading is the best way to look like the biggest ASS on the block then this site is a good place for the EP,s to stand out. I do not want to rain on your parade, however if you feel it is constructive to sit on the side lines and be God over every Gunnard Thompson or the new information he introduces then you will be dissapointed.

EP
3/9/2015 09:43:10 am

Any time William Smith mentions anything to do with butts, you can almost feel his blood pressure rising as he types. I wonder why that is...

Matt Mc
3/9/2015 10:30:46 am

My point is that it is only speculation and nothing more.

One can make whatever assumptions they want but it does not mean there is a connection to the Newport Tower.

As you have stated the photo is inconculsive, the carbon dating is inconclusive.

So until evidence is presented that is conclusive that the kiln and the tower where built before colonial times nothing can be stated otherwise.

As I said before the burden on proof is not proving these were built in colonial times but proving they were built earlier than colonial times.

You can complain all you want but that wont change anything and you have nothing to prove to us. We however can and most of the time will bring up the fact that the claims are extraordinary and that more evidence than old photos and statements like "I have seen" are needed. That is not being picky that is being rational


EP
3/9/2015 01:33:36 pm

I bet William Smith also thinks that "evolutionism" is "just a theory". Don't you, Mr. Smith?...

william smith
3/9/2015 03:21:06 pm

The 1996 report by Heinemeier and Jungeir shows 3 carbon test dates that average 1463 and 3 that average 1663. All testing was of mortar from the tower. Note: the tower was repaired due to a powder explosion during the colonial period.

EP
3/9/2015 07:12:58 am

Contrary to what the diffusionism enthusiast and homophobe-for-Jesus William Smith would like to think, there is exactly zero evidence that the Newport Tower is anything other than what it is - an unremarkable colonial construction.

William Smith, on the other had, thinks it is a pre-Columbian structure that is functionally and archaeologcally unprecedented and which is a remnant of extraordinarily significant political and economic activity that has somehow left not trace in historical records, official or unofficial, of people and groups with vastly different agendas.

But then William Smith thinks that novelty Native paperweights are rare and important Renaissance artifacts, so it's not at all surprising.

Reply
william smith
3/9/2015 05:33:56 pm

EP - You show your charictor when you open your mouth. You also sound like the EP Grondine that had a stroke when people told him he had no facts that supported his astroid impact that ended the last ice age.

Reply
EP
3/10/2015 06:11:45 am

Sick burn, bro. I'm crying like a little boy.

Which reminds me: Would you like to tell us about your association with Frank Joseph, America's favorite Nazi pedophile?

E.P. Grondine
8/29/2015 07:21:46 am

Hi William -

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but...

I AM NOT THIS "EP", and only discovered these posts by doing a name search for myself on 8/29/2015.

I am also not "History Channel HD", and they are using my name without permission.

I did not have a stroke when no one would believe anything I wrote

I had my stroke after I completed the manuscript for my book.

I have no opinion on the Newport structure.

My own interesst lies with the Codex 636.
What I would like to mention wat that when I visiteed the museum at Coshocton, I saw a publication on a conference on the "Newark Holy Stones", and diffussion. One of the presenters way back then had worked through the "hooked X" materials, and I have never seen Wolters make any mention of that gentleman's work.





william smith
3/9/2015 03:39:22 pm

It is one thing to chastize Gunnar Thompson for finding what he claims shown in a late 1890's photo as a large kilm that likely had the capacity needed to construct the Newport Tower. When in 1847 David Melville saw a picture of an English Chesterton Windmill in Aarwickshire and started the support for the Arnold theory that the tower was a colonial windmill.
The attached is reference to this information as well as the carbon dating showing 95 % support to the Arnold build date. However the actual study in 1996 has been challenged by qualified people and the three test showing a late 1400s date is still open.
http://www.uhaul.com/SuperGraphics/53/3/Venture-Across-America-and-Canada-Modern/Rhode-Island/Old-Stone-Mill

Reply
Matt Mc
3/10/2015 05:27:29 am

So it is considered inconclusive and therefore should be dismissed. Until the results are considered conclusive it really has no merit except for something that can be used to encourage further research.

Bottom line it changes nothing.

Reply
william smith
3/10/2015 06:46:03 am

Matt - At what time do you feel it should be dismissed? 1847 when a picture portrayed it as a wind mill or 1890 when a photo shows like arches and a potential kilm or 1996 when 3 carbon dates stated 1400s and 3 stated 1600s? If you dismiss the 1890 photo, then you must dismiss the 1847 picture and the 1996 carbon dating of the mortar.

Matt Mc
3/10/2015 07:12:58 am

It all should be dismissed because it is inconclusive, Is it enough to warrant more research, sure if someone is willing to fund it.

However in proving the Newport Tower or a basement Kiln is more than the work of people in the colonial times it needs to be dismissed simply because the it is solid evidence. One can speculate all ones want that does not make fact. None of what has presented has established a fact.

The kiln is secondary and like I said based on what is presented has about as much to do with the Newport Tower as my well has to do with the construction of Washington DC.

By all means keep digging and looking for evidence and instead of getting upset at people who say that it proves nothing use that as a guide to find something. As I said many times before, you first need to prove the Newport Tower was not built in colonial times before anything else. That has yet to be proven.

william smith
3/10/2015 07:45:04 am

Matt - You are correct in that only research will get to the truth. This is my last comment on this because any additional would just be repititious. Gunnar Thompson looked at a 1890 photo and observerd a structure that had vents and arches which may have been the remains of an ancient kilm with a capacity to produce mortar to construct the Newport Tower which is in the area. I do not read any reported information that indicates he is altering information to fit a specific theory. My theory on the Newport Tower is it is a land claim marker as well as a smoke house for processing Cod fish and built in 1472 by Portuguese. Gunnar Thompsons finding in a 1890 photo may add or deleate from my theory. If you want to call the tower a windmill that is ok, Scott Wolter calls it a church. Some of my ongoing research is at the following link. If you can prove the Newport Tower is a chicken house or alian fuel station then go for it. http://www.migration-diffusion.info/article.php?subject=astronomy&id=222

Matt Mc
3/10/2015 07:53:36 am

When did I say anything more that the Newport Tower was built in colonial times?

I really do not care what it is and I do not see why people are trying to prove something colonial is anything but what it is.

william smith
3/10/2015 10:46:37 am

Matt - I agree with your position that proof must be available to disprove the colonial period as to the build date of the Newport Tower. Sometimes it takes many items to focus away from an established idea. At one time 98% of the people on earth thought it was flat. After some voyages of record it did not take long to convince the world that it was round. New information after 1847 has generated a few people that do not agree that the tower is a Arnold colonial windmill.
Gunnar presented new information to some that may just attempt to validate his theory rather that attack it.
Three engineers including myself independantly measured and find the standard unit of measure in building the tower is the Scottish/Dutch Ell and not the English measurements which exist on all the other colonial buildings of the Arnold period.
Three dates of mortar tested to pre-colonial period. If mortar could be confirmed from the Kilm and tested is may provide additional support for pre-colonial activity.
Sixty native American skelitons were studied for DNA supporting the time when pneumonia broke out in America. The results were it was first introduced to America at Narragessitt Bay and western Wisconson at the same time in the late 1400.s.
Their is evidence of triangle holes drilled in stone to gather magnatite and components of a lodestone compass of design of the 1300 - 1500 that the English were not aware of.
The English did not use a tower to claim land.

At some point the evidence may or may not be enough to change the mind set of people. Only true research will prove or disprove the five W,s of the tower. For now I choose the SMOKE HOUSE THEORY.

Matt Mc
3/10/2015 11:30:36 am

All I can say is keep searching, I honestly believe you wont find anything.

Scotty Roberts link
3/10/2015 02:40:56 am

Those whacky guys with institutional degrees. Sheesh.

Reply
Anthony G.
9/1/2022 02:55:36 pm

Old Stone Built Mill or as Verrazano put it Baptiz Mola. If you don't already know the meaning, look up Mola.

Henry Sinclair wasn't alive when this Baptismal was built. Cartography narrows down the timeline considerably. The baptistry is not depicted on the 1025-1050 Cotton World Map. This baptistry first shows up on the 1199 Sawley Map. The second to show the Baptistry and European exploration of North America, Gulf of Mexico and South America is the 1225-1250 Viðey Map. There most likely would have been Templar involvement. Every written source I've come across is dubious at best. Cartography tells a completely different story than what we've all been taught. I'm not really sure how to proceed as most of this goes back to the guy using stories of white gods as sources, or people who've just made shit up.

What should researchers do when they have brand new information and very little in literary sources to back it up? We could tell you who built the baptistry. Without any good literary sources we would quickly end up on your chopping block.

Reply
Anthony G.
9/20/2022 08:15:03 pm

Jason Colavito,

From what I can tell, you're the only person to have translated Eugene Beauvais. The three maps I've mentioned, plus several more could be used to support some of his contentions. Templars in Mexico may in fact be true. As difficult as that may be to wrap the mind around. I cannot speak to his language interpretations but, cartography does back part of his story. I really appreciate you providing your translations for free. My fluency in French went out the door decades ago. I'll need to regain some of this fluency if I'm going to track down his sources. I appreciate you providing the PDF for that too.

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