Harry Hubbard Answers Your Questions on the Illinois Caves and America Unearthed
Harry Hubbard appeared on America Unearthed on December 28 (S02E05) to discuss the Illinois Caves, alleged final resting place of Alexander the Great, Cleopatra VII, and various and sundry lesser Macedonian dynastic royalty. Among these was Cleopatra’s son by Mark Antony, Alexander Helios, from whom Hubbard’s company, Alexander Helios, Inc., takes its name.
Hubbard agreed to answer some questions by email, and I agreed to run his responses in their entirety, which turned out to be much longer than anticipated, as he provided a lengthy excerpt from one of his publications. I gathered the questions from my own curiosity and many of the excellent questions readers proposed earlier this week. Thanks to everyone for several excellent questions, and thanks to Hubbard for taking the time to answer them.
For those who don’t have the time to read through everything, here are the highlights:
My questions are in bold and Hubbard’s answers in plain text. Some of the questions may seem disjointed because Hubbard broke up my longer questions into smaller sections and answered them piecemeal.
Several readers are interested in your appearance on America Unearthed. Did producers instruct you about what you could or could not discuss?
No, they didn't have to. We all had copies of the script. They knew I was going to give my claim which I wanted to get to any National TV audience. Everything follows a script at the end of editing and all the good footage ends up on the floor. They shot enough scenes and dialog to make several shows if they wanted to.
Did the show represent your point of view accurately?
No. There wasn't near the time spent with the real pieces as they did with my replicas and a couple of fakes. We shot several takes of me deciphering one of Scott's cartouche tablets but I knew they would edit that out. This is one of Scott's several pieces that clearly show Meri-Amen Setep-en-Ra Arksantrs. (Ref. Budge Egyptian Glyph Dictionary Volume II page 942 entry 388.) I had two tables spread out of beautiful pieces many of which had been through forensics but none made it to the episode. Pictures of our layout can be seen on our Facebook site The Illinois Caves.
Was there anything they left out that you felt should have been included?
Yes. For sure, what was left out was any history of this discovery. I taped the history and background of when this discovery first happened at least 3 times. So for the viewer, the whole episode was flying around in the grand canyon in the exact same place I told Jerry Wills about back in 2002 when Paul and I stayed with him for a couple of days. I thought we were going to get our own episode like anything else they had run that was half interesting. Don't get me wrong, I love Scott, he's a great dude, but sometimes it's a bit hard for me to make it deep into some of his shows and I could never watch them as many times as it appears you do.
Second: I had worked hard on a new Egyptian Glyph decipherment off one of the replicated gold medallions that I really wanted on the show. Zak and I knew it was a long shot so we taped me giving the final in English on a short update vid. My notes and how I put it all together are shown on our facebook also. If you study this at all, you can see the syntax is all over the place and the sentences are not structured in a flowing vocative. It's a really good glyph inscription never before seen or heard of on a national scale.
Next: I wanted to show and decipher on their edit another one of Scott's amazing pieces. He has a tablet about a foot tall of a king in Egyptian garb holding a staff and an ankh with the cartouche right there in front of his head in old glyph Meri Amen Setep-en-Ra Arksantrs...who is Alexander the Great. That piece is worth untold millions and I don't think Scott gets it yet.
Then: I wanted to show more of the artifacts I had there and I for sure wanted Scott to bring one of his Cleopatra tablets...I didn't tell him who it was, just bring it. But it was too large and heavy for him to trouble with along with his gear. Scott has three fine tablets depicting Cleopatra...but her name is spelled as KLEOPTRA. "Beloved, Queen of Queens Kleoptra mother of Helios the King." But of course it's written in reverse on the stone which causes some scholars issue because they have never studied ancient languages.
Also: As stated earlier, the history not only of the discovery, but of the classical aspects as well. We didn't just dream all this up. Without a full background of the discovery, people are led to believe Russell Burrows found it and it all began in 1982, but the fact is this site is clearly on record since 1925 when it was first discovered. You can see all this in detail on my video Modern Discovery.
Most Importantly: Our claim was left out. We have been saying for the past 20 years that what people have in some circles popularly dubbed Burrows Cave is indeed the final resting place of the Ptolemaic Dynasty including the cadavers of King Alexander the Great and Queen of Queens Kleoptra.
What evidence can you offer a skeptic to demonstrate that the caves you describe actually exist?
I'd say about 8 and a half gigs. I'd like to offer you a thumb drive with several gigs of pictures, old documents, layouts, data charts, hundreds of documents for you to see if you want to. Let me be very clear on this. We tapped the mother lode and it happened to be in Marion County Illinois. There has NEVER in the history of archaeological discovery any ancient site the world over that has come to light with more artifacts, documentation, books, reports, forensic tests, websites, blogs, videos of decipherment, videos of historical significance all dealing with the important impact of this ancient tomb that was looted by a human styled baboon [Russell Burrows].
Even if all of the artifacts you claim to come from it are genuinely ancient, that does not automatically prove they came from the cave as opposed to, say, California or Europe.
It would be stupid to think someone would go overseas to bring back several thousand pounds of artifacts and sell them for $5, $10, $20. I have Megahead in my shop right now and he weighs over 150lbs. Add to this the many mapstones that show the local river systems with ancient sites marked on them.
You have told me and others that you agree that Russell Burrows fabricated artifacts and otherwise engaged in dishonesty. Why would you trust any claims he made or any artifacts he uncovered?
Burrows is way too stupid to know five different ancient languages and their associated alphabets. Nor would he have ever known what to carve back then. There are too many stones, that Burrows was first selling for way less money than it would have taken him time to carve them. It was only later he started tainting them. Please let me explain also that we do not go by any of Burrows' claims except what he writes in chapters 18 and 56 of his book.
How can you independently confirm the authenticity of the same?
I've had pieces forensically tested at an archaeological lab in Santa Fe. The all passed as +1800 ybp. There is so much including a silver coin that passes as well.
Do you have any images of the interior of the Illinois Caves?
Just what I show on our website. There were others that popped up here and there but they could have been of anything. The only reason I post the pictures I have are because I found the negatives in Jack Ward's files in an envelope labeled Pictures from Inside Cave.
How were artifacts placed in the cave, and in what positions were they found? For example, were they carefully arranged in an intact burial assemblage, or had they been moved after initial deposition?
We will never know.
Are you willing or able to provide original (not duplicate) artifacts from the Illinois caves for authentication by professional Egyptologists or archaeologists?
Oh sure. I had mine authenticated back in the late '90s. But it would help if you could find an Egyptologist who could actually read glyph. I haven't found any yet. It appears to me that by today's standards, anyone who can read a Cairo street map is automatically an Egyptologist.
Is there any additional evidence of Greeks or Egyptians in pre-Columbian Illinois beyond this cave, such as house foundations, Greek-style cities, linguistic evidence, genetic evidence, etc.?
There are Roman and Greek coins found all over this country. You can read about that in history books from the 1800s or even Charles Fort documents dozens of ancient coins found right here in Illinois. There are ancient forts, settlements and defensive walls along with mounds throughout this area. People have found artifacts depicting elephants near here and I am currently working on another Egyptian Amulet found a few miles downstream. About 10 years ago, a pot hunter found a staff head about a mile from our tombsite.
What type of ships did the Greco-Egyptians use to reach America?
We tend to refer to them as Mediterraneans because there are several cultures depicted in this tomb as well as the different languages. They were Roman ships, Trireme, quinquereme and other large ships as well as smaller vessels too.
Why are these ships not depicted in the artifacts we have seen on your website? Those galleys do not appear to be ocean-going vessels.
This issue would be my fault. I have over 100 photos of artifacts with ships and boats. But you have to remember these stones are mostly small and it is hard to carve an ocean going vessel on them. The ships hulls are truncated. These ancient artisans had no idea people thousands of years later would be criticizing their handiwork.
You claim that Alexander Helios, the son of Cleopatra VII, fled Egypt and came to America after Augustus’ defeat of Antony and Cleopatra. The last historical reference to him, by Cassius Dio (51.15.6), states that Octavian (the future Augustus) had taken Alexander Helios to Rome and pardoned him. Why would he be fleeing Octavian if he had been pardoned?
You are wrong. Here is what I have documented concerning such mistaken information. This is an excerpt from book #1 dated 1994. If you can find where I have indicated otherwise......? More on this to follow.
[Editor's note: Here he reproduces a lengthy section from the overview to Alexander Helios, which appears below, with Hubbard's original copyright notice at left.]
[Hubbard resumes his answer here]
You can also read more of my work directly pertaining to this issue at this link.
Why would he choose America instead of a closer anti-Roman stronghold?
We are historians, not psychologists.
Is there any evidence that Alexander Helios ever left Europe other than the disputed Illinois artifacts?
No, he simply falls off the face of history.
How did Alexander Helios, resident in Rome, get seagoing ships and supplies to sail to America with a large contingent without any Romans noticing or recording the event?
You can see Paul [Schaffranke]'s decipherment of the "Numerius" tablet at the end of our Etruscan Volume One video for these answers. The event had to have been noticed, but perhaps not recorded. Or you can read and deduce from the article posted above.
Why did the anti-imperial historians of the early empire fail to record this important humiliation of Augustus, the “escape” of his enemy’s son?
We believe it wasn't an insult. There were thousands of legionnaires who did not wish to fight for Octavian (he wasn't Augustus yet.) We think Octavian was more than happy to let them go because he wouldn't have a mutiny on his hands and he wouldn't have to pay them money or land for their services.
You told me that internet postings about you claiming that a UFO carried Alexander the Great’s body to Illinois were false. This YouTube video from 1998 shows you discussing extraterrestrials in the context of the Illinois Caves artifacts and asserting that ancient texts, particularly Pliny’s Natural History, are “UFO books.” You also assert that artifacts from the Illinois Caves are “obvious” depictions of ETs and their crafts. Do you believe in ancient astronauts?
Of course. Thank you for watching my video. It has gotten rave reviews for years.
If not, why were your statements about aliens in 1998 incorrect?
I say I don't believe in UFOs or Aliens. I believe they have been here longer than we have and just because I don't know what kind of ship it is soaring across the sky with lightning speed doesn't mean the guy driving it doesn't. He knows if it's a Ford or a Chevy and probably knows how to check the oil too. I prefer to call them saucers or AFOs.
On your website, you write that “evidence” indicates that gold from the Illinois caves was sold to the U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing via Fort Knox. What is this evidence?
Because of the letters I have dated in the late 1980s involving Fort Knox along with senators and congressmen from Indiana.
Who sold the gold?
Burrows and [Jack] Ward.
Since the Bureau of Engraving and Printing handles only fiat currency (Federal Reserve notes), not bullion or coinage, what did they do with this gold?
You are wrong. Ever heard of the Golden Eagle? It is a US coin and backed by the Fed. It is my speculation; I am going to stick my neck out again and declare that it is possible, the 1991 US Coin Golden Eagles contain the gold smelted down from this tomb.
[Editor's note: The U.S. Gold Eagle coin was authorized in 1985 by an Act of Congress and is produced by the United States Mint, not the Federal Reserve. They are not backed by the Federal Reserve but hold value based on their gold content, certified by the U.S. Treasury Department.]
On your website, you state that Helena Blavatsky did not exist and was invented in the 1920s. How do you explain the existence of The Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled, and other documentary evidence of her existence prior to 1920? How did her name end up in public records, newspapers, and other sources from the 1800s?
This is debatable and has nothing to do with this tomb. I will debate this issue very easily for money and nothing less. My research is not only entertaining but worthy of being learned by people who have not examined the data. I will leave you with this hint though...Are there any Blacks in Russia today??? To believe or think a mulatto or black woman lived in the middle of Russia during the mid 1800s is absolute stupidity!! Only on the internet. Physically show me one single book printed in Russia during the 1800s that has Blavatsky in it. Have you ever even seen a book printed in Russia before WWII? What did you notice about it??
On the same page, you assert that the Maya never existed. Who or what built their cities, and how could linguists have deciphered their language to discover a coherent account of their history if they did not exist?
Again, this is not tomb related...but it all has to do with semantics.
You have stated to me and to others that your standard of evidence regarding the Illinois Caves is “prove us wrong.”
I have never said this was my standard of evidence that I know of. Please verify your statement. But no one the world over has, can or ever will be able to prove us wrong. We did it. We identified the big one.
Do you apply this standard of proof in your own life? For example, do you believe in alien abductions since no one can prove they are not happening? Or ghosts? Or ancient astronauts? If not, why is the standard of proof different for your caves?
I am for more skeptical than you can or will be. I have a reputation to identify with in an Historical sense that can easily be identified with by hearing my dozens of online interviews, watching my videos and reading my books. I don't flip-flop, change my mind or later admit I got something wrong. The rest is for any unassuming and unbiased person to travel his own path of investigation and research to make his or her own determinations. As with several of our videos, we don't tell you what to think, we just show you the facts.....go make up your own mind.
There is no advantage to me or my project if you just woke up one day and admitted to yourself....hey, that Harry Hubbard was right about something. Well, sorry to inform, but no big deal. As near as I can see, you are not a historian nor do you study ancient languages on a regular basis. It appears you are only a bit 'skeptical' which is really very little on the tree limb of life. If you go into your research with an already supposed outcome, you will certainly make the outcome work for you. We never set out to discover Alexander's Tomb....no one dreams of this as a child....and we would never have been in this position had we not read the history books, studied the Greek, Latin, Punic, Glyph and Numidian....who else could have done what we did? If our information came from some other person, would it have been more believable? Or, what if this discovery were made in Egypt, Sudan or Spain? It would have been jumped on 90 years ago.
As far as me attempting to sell my books and make some money off of the world's greatest discovery is all very wrong and undisciplined, but not for others who have never made any discoveries or deciphered ancient unknown text? Should I have been a basketball star with orange hair and multiple body piercings?? Thank you for the opportunity to enlighten you and your devout audience. Harry Hubbard
[Editor's note: None of my questions referenced financial interests, money, or his motivation for monetizing the alleged tomb.]
After the Interview
Harry Hubbard felt I did not fairly represent his position in summarizing his interview in my introduction and that therefore I am biased. In his interview he stated "I say I don't believe in UFOs or Aliens. I believe they have been here longer than we have..." You can draw your own conclusions about whether I should have believed the first sentence or the second, or his 1998 YouTube video about "aliens" and the "craft" seen by the alleged occupants of the Illinois Caves. He also wants to make sure we all know that he has geophysical evidence of hollow spaces under the ground around the alleged cave site, which I guess is supposed to prove that there are caves. This, of course, proves nothing about the contents of said caves.
Anyway, here is his follow up message in full:
Follow Up Statement by Harry Hubbard
No, Harry does not and has never believed ancient astronauts had anything to do whatsoever with this cave. I only state that it appears these ancient people saw ancient strangers along with strange ships in the sky. Nothing more, nothing less. Please make the correction and do your best not to interject opinion not based on fact.
You have made another incorrect assumption. We have conducted Earth Resistivity on the target property several times. There is a large room under one bluff and a cavern system under the other one.
Please don't put words in my mouth via assumption. Please get our story correct without your bias. Be biased on your time not mine. HH
I thought you did a great job with the presentation and I did touch on your other subjects, just not in fine detail. Please make note of that. Everyone tries to make me sound like a monster, but I just want to get the facts straight.....thank you.
Hubbard then delivered another follow-up, attacking me personally.
Second Follow Up by Harry Hubbard
[S]ince when did anyone's claims matter to you at all??? You, I assume, suppose yourself to be a fair skeptic, but when you are faced with facts and corrections, you become humble? Come on Jason, if I was afraid of being attacked or smeared, I would never have bothered with you or your blog. All you guys do is attack and smear. I expect no less. I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings or made you uncomfortable. Perhaps I should go to some better skeptics blog. Do you know anyone who is better than you at what you do? You and your bloggers attack me, make insulting accusations, call me names and I'm the BAD GUY. I say to you and your cyber family, Man Up or move on. Is that clear enough? What's your next childish statement or stupid question? Am I supposed to run and hide because someone doesn't like me what what (sic) I'm saying. You gotta remember, I've been doing this for 20 years. I eat people like you and your colony for breakfast. You don't believe in ETs or flying saucers because you are an idiot and I would say you have never read the works of Charles Fort either. Now are you going to cry and run to mommy because I called you an idiot? I wonder if you still live at home with your parents. Please, by all means, don't listen to my claims. But if you print something about me, make sure it is TRUE!! HH
As per Mr. Hubbard's request, I have printed only what is true, namely his exact words.
1/10/2014 03:20:08 am
Good work Jason for doing all this. Thank you Harry for answering the questions.
1/10/2014 05:57:33 am
Thank you Bill. I do my best to answer a bunch of questions forthright and I am bashingly accused of having an EGO.. Is that the best you guys can come up with? How about proving me wrong on any decipherment? Now there's something you can work on.
4/9/2014 12:18:13 pm
I am intrigued I want to learn more and maybe even go cave hunting I live in so. Il.
5/24/2017 10:16:57 pm
Love all of your videos. Please make more. Miss you
1/10/2014 03:23:38 am
Jason, thanks for, what I can only assume, was a painful experience trying to pin him down on these questions.
1/10/2014 03:28:39 am
As I understand it, the problem is that the article I had read said that Hubbard said that a UFO carried Alexander's body to Illinois, whereas Hubbard only believes that the Mediterranean visitors saw and/or met with the aliens *after* arriving in Illinois.
1/10/2014 03:30:22 am
Oh, I should also probably clarify that the questions were submitted and answered by email. I've added that to the intro above.
1/10/2014 10:52:07 pm
Oh, you submitted and Harry answered the questions via email. Then it was not 'a painful experience trying to pin him down on these questions' as RLewis suggested. I wonder, RLewis, does your assumption indicate that you approached this subject with bias firmly in place?
1/10/2014 03:51:19 am
The ego on this guy. I heard an interview with him, and he literally said he was the smartest guy he knew, and that his claims must be true because he couldn't disprove them, so how could anybody?
1/10/2014 05:50:27 am
Ego....? Thank you, as beat up as I feel most of the time a bit of boosting is much appreciated.
1/10/2014 05:59:05 am
As it happens, Harry, I am not ignorant about ancient history. Is it possible to be more specific? Diodorus makes mention of many blessed isles, such as the anonymous island of 2.57 and the imaginary island of 5.16, not to mention Panchaea in 5.41-67 (with fragments in Eusebius, Praep. Evang. 2). Which one were you referring to?
1/10/2014 06:06:56 am
Mr. Hubbard, having an ego is not a good thing. I'd explain to you why, but my arguments are so great I get paid to make them. Would you like my email so you can PayPal me $150? You can't prove me wrong!
1/10/2014 07:18:46 am
Neither one. Try this. http://www.illinoiscaves.com/newhist.htm It's all right there in print from years ago but you have to read it. So sorry to offend you Jason. I supposed someone like you could take a hit or two, as many as you deliver yourself. Had no idea you had a glass jaw. I've been a punching back for bad bloggers for years. No matter how bad a writer you are, and have nothing to write about, just smear and slander me and people WILL read your ilk, repost it numerous times, and make the same futile claims.
1/10/2014 09:26:15 am
For those of you keeping track, Hubbard is referring to Diodorus at 5.19-20, where he describes an island first reported 300 years earlier by Pseudo-Aristotle at De mirabilis auscultationibus 84. This island was allegedly a Carthaginian colony several days' sail from the Pillars of Heracles.
1/10/2014 09:47:24 am
Does anybody find it morbidly ironic that Harry Hubbard goes by the code letters "HH"?
1/10/2014 03:02:12 pm
Hey Scott, are you a psychologist? I didn't think so. Could you please link me to any of your online reports or videos so I can review them and get a better idea of where you are coming from? Thank you.
2/8/2015 05:56:34 am
This seems to be quite a load of BS. When is history not embellished by the victors. The truth can only come from physical, scientific and more than one source proof. Neither of which you can provide. Assumptions and ooparts are not facts in your current claims. Combining a fictitious story around a collection of replicated artifacts and purporting it as ancient history is not common practice among true archeologists. 20 years capitalizing on a person's stupidity is about as low a person can get. How can you live with yourself? Lame profiteer!
4/7/2019 09:30:02 pm
1/10/2014 03:05:43 pm
Awe STRAWS...now you've busted me. Soon it will be out that Harry Hubbard is an SS agent working for the Nazis. Wow. Jason, where do find all these children....? Oh, I know, it's your blog. hehehe
1/10/2014 03:59:06 pm
Ego is a bad thing. Jason has an ego but is more of a confident ego! I think that is what is needed!
Jason of Illinois
1/12/2014 08:46:46 am
Hubbard is an anti-science quack. He's a charlatan, there's no debating people like him. All evidence has to be falsifiable to be considered legitimate science, and his buffoonish statements are so laughably stupid. The Mayans didn't exist. Really? Europeans "mysteriously" began finding gold coins they brought over from Europe after arriving here in the 1800s. Shocking! Incredibly, no blacks ever visited Russia until the 20th century. That's racist and doesn't take into account Puskin's Ethiopian great-grandfather in the 1700s. Hubbard's claims about Native Americans, and that this continent had a surrealistic "white" presence in ancient times is a repeat of the white supremacist blather that justified so much racism that's hurt this country in the past. It's not surprising. And, Charles Fort might've been a good author, but he's as irrelevant to real science as homeopathy is, despite his continued popularity.
1/10/2014 03:53:54 am
Nice questionnaire all around, and thanks to Hubbard as well. I'm not quite sure what to make of the Helena Blavatsky statement, but I'm sure if he demands money for the full answer it is indeed quite interesting and entertaining. Did he actually imply that Helena Blavatsky was "mulatto or black"? Most unusual.
1/10/2014 04:11:41 am
I'm not sure what he's getting to with the Blavatsky and race thing either. Some pictures of her look like she had her hair done in corn rows or something similar -- maybe he thinks only black people can do that?
1/10/2014 05:39:31 am
That's really stretching it. I have books printed in Moscow before WWII and they are in English! There is something very common among books printed in Russia and if you ever saw a single binding, you would readily notice what I mean. It's like my items for debate, don't jump in unless you have the goods and I'm not about to share what I've learned with hours of research to appease someone's curiosity for nothing.
1/10/2014 06:12:34 am
In fact, antique books are an interest of mine. I recently visited a military library that has quite a few Russian books from the 19th century in its collection, so I've seen far more than a "single binding" just this year. Would you care to be more specific?
1/10/2014 03:55:44 am
Interesting read, Thanks Jason.
1/10/2014 10:54:42 pm
I submit this is the case of almost all filmed interviews. I've been on both sides of the camera for years. the interviewee always wishes they could have clarified a point, said something different, added something they forgot to mention. And if there is agenda present by the producers, directors, writers, etc., the interviewee is rarely happy with what was left on the edit room floor. After I was on Scott's show and came on here to correct some glaring misrepresentations by Jason, I made it clear that my experience with Committee was positive. My viewpoints were, on the whole, well represented. And the outcome furthered the discussion of early trans-Atlantic contact.
1/11/2014 01:03:25 am
Well Steve you must no more than I. I have only worked int documentaries for over 25 years. Most interviews are only basically scripted in the fact that the interviewer has a series of questions to ask. A good interviewer has studied the subject and can ask good follow up questions that enable the interviewee to provide as much information as possible. In most documentaries the guest is seldom left feeling pissed of and misrepresentative. In all my years I have only heard of tow instances of subjects being unhappy with interviews on productions I did, two in 25 years, now there could be a some that never got back to me the lowly editor or cameraman. I have had live talk show guest unhappy with what they said but those are more confrontational by nature. What I am learning of Committee films is more and more interesting because they are doing things so differently than most places. I have worked in a more science and political arena and the production companys or studios I have worked for have a higher code of ethics. To me the shows look, content, and production methods go to show me that technology and the lowering cost of equipment does enable anyone to make documentaries.
1/11/2014 03:31:44 am
You and I have different experiences, Matt Mc. That doesn't make me "wrong." By the way, one of my experiences was being on AU under the direction of the very company you're critiquing. I have empirical evidence that you are wrong and I am right. I also know others who have been on Scott's show who had great experiences.
1/11/2014 04:08:15 am
When I said you are wrong I said you are wrong in the larger sense of the word and scope of the production industry. You said that you have been in front of and behind the camera for years. If that was the case they you would know that it is generally not the case that guest are unhappy with the performance. You would also know that every documentary has an agenda.
1/11/2014 04:23:19 am
I feel obligated to mention that while I have not worked on River Monster directly and have no direct involvement in the show. I did edit the short advertising spots for the first two sessions that where used by Animal Planet.
1/11/2014 05:16:20 am
Matt, I have to weigh in a bit here and say that I think that Steve is right in part--most people I know who have been interviewed, including myself, have later felt that they wished they had done or said this or that differently. That doesn't necessarily mean they weren't happy with the interview or the interview process.
1/11/2014 06:24:54 am
Okay fair enough Varika, I get what you are saying. That is true people are unhappy with how they presented themselves, I should of said this, my hair was wrong, ect.. That is not what I was referring to. I was referring to how the saw themselves presented and represented in the final product. As I mention except in rare cases people are happy with the overall presentation and how it works within the context of the larger piece. People are highly critical of themselves and that will never change but there is a difference between presentation in a program and self criticism.
1/10/2014 04:30:47 am
Slightly scary pathology.
1/10/2014 05:43:38 am
Oh surely. A couple thousands of years of flooding leaves everything perfectly in tact. There is evidence all over the place, you just don't know about any of it and will never be willing to research the data. Start with Spiro Mounds and work your way to Koestler.
1/10/2014 06:32:33 am
The Roman city of Ostia (its port on the Tiber) is older than any Roman city on the Mississippi. It is similarly located on a river that floods regularly, and is preserved in remarkably good condition. Alexandria in Egypt likewise flooded and was subsumed beneath the Mediterranean, but ruins and artifacts can be found there as well beneath the sea. Any large Roman city would leave artifacts and ruins of some sort beyond mounds, as is clear throughout Europe, Asia, and Africa. That is also why I don't buy Mormon historical ideas.
1/10/2014 08:13:16 am
Harry, I have visited and studied Cahokia many times. There has not been a single discovery or artifact that even remotely relates to the Romans—and there have been numerous trash sites and midden uncovered which solely point to the Mississippian mound building culture or trading networks they had access to (viz. marine sea shells, Mound 72). Further, Spiro Mounds is not even close to Illinois—they are located in Eastern Oklahoma.
1/10/2014 05:45:47 am
Also, that story was put together back in 1994 with what information we had at the time just to manufacture a copyright for future movie deals. There is a bit of drama interjected because our supporters wanted us to include more than the scant data we had then.
1/10/2014 02:33:16 pm
Hey man, do you have any educational videos online? Do you have any reports that I can read. Did you not know that there is only one single real artifact in the Cahokia Museum? Probably not, that's because you are ignorant.
Woah. Once More.
1/11/2014 01:13:17 am
That's right Harry. Don't defend your ridiculous claims----like the Romans building a "major city and port" at Cahokia----try to divert attention away from your self-serving fictions you're peddling as fact. The reason you play a game of distraction is because your argument hold no water----they are fictions, lies and misrepresentations, for what? To add more “drama” and entertainment value for movie rights?! Don’t you think you should have announced beforehand? You see, there have been many hucksters and con artists throughout history that have tried fool people with tall tales, lies, false histories, .... That's why academic researchers and scientists have adopted a culture of methodologies to provide independent oversight for new discoveries, theories, research, etc. Everyone here has asked you to provide substance to bolster your assertions and you respond with ether. You refuse to defend your claims because, simply, they are indefensible.
1/11/2014 02:33:44 am
In all fairness Harry anyone can self release a education video on a place like Youtube or Vimeo that does not mean it is a "Educational Video", those are released and sponsored by a education institution and vetted by peers. I glanced at your videos and they are most definitely self produce and of very low production value. Since I only glanced I am not making comment on the content, as I video editor by profession I was just curious. I think you are stretching very far call those videos documentaries or educational videos.
Scott A. Hamilton
1/10/2014 03:46:54 pm
How about you let me interview one day for Jason as I could probably get a better insight into the questioning of the caves??
1/11/2014 01:31:26 am
If you took the time to listen to more of my interviews, you could probably get a better insight into the caves. Just wishing for it to fall into your lap...only in your mind. Any time you wish, no problem. Do you have any online material available??
1/10/2014 05:05:43 am
Thanks Jason for your patience & endurance.I am glad I didn't ask a question about the technicality of an Egyptian exodus to Illinois....
1/10/2014 06:27:45 am
Mr Harry Hubbard.On second though,I think I really you to discuss the technicality & the specificity of an Egyptian Exodus to Illinois.
1/10/2014 03:27:18 pm
I think I really want you to discuss the technicality & the specificity of an Egyptian Exodus to Illinois.
1/11/2014 08:22:58 am
And dont forget the connection to the Egyptians in the Phillipines? If my credential prove me right, I think they had a colony there also!
The real Varika
1/11/2014 10:23:40 am
Look, name-thief, if you're trying to steal my identity, at least learn to use little things like apostrophes and grammar. You are insultingly obvious as an imposter.
1/11/2014 10:33:06 am
No, unfortunately, Weebly's system is pretty primitive. I can only delete posts, not edit them. What I can do is this: In the future, email me with the offending post, and I will delete any post using a fake name. I will try to monitor incoming comments by email address to see when a fake one is being posted, but I can't guarantee I'll catch them all.
1/10/2014 05:47:40 am
"But it would help if you could find an Egyptologist who could actually read glyph. I haven't found any yet."
1/10/2014 05:50:49 am
For the benefit of everyone who commented here, I have updated the above post with a follow-up message from Harry Hubbard, who feels that my introduction was biased.
1/10/2014 03:19:13 pm
Im new here and came across your site but I am trying to understand some of the many postings and conversations here. Are you coming from a skeptical point of view asking (critical thinking) for proof of evidence/ Than makes sense. I do not want to confuse you with some of the posters who seem to say you are racist. Critical thinking must be used in archeology and that is not being racist. However...If somone throws a theory out, should we not check into it instead of dismissing it? Newbie here and really reading up on the discussions so forgive my ignorance???? I did enjoy Harry Hubbard on America Unearthed
1/10/2014 03:53:06 pm
They like to jump on people that disagree with them. They invited Harry Hubbard as a guest and yet treat him like the plague because of his info! What doees that tell you about this site????????? They are too scared to intervie Wolter and then jump on Harry for llaying out his information on the table!
1/10/2014 10:38:22 pm
Sheena, my biography is available in the "about me" section, and I am indeed a skeptic who is simply asking for evidence that the material in question exists. As a result, I have been accused of being anti-white and also anti-black simply for asking believers in lost white colonies and trans-Atlantic black colonies to provide evidence for their points.
1/10/2014 11:03:14 pm
I agree, Hank. And, Jason, you should clarify that Scott was on these comment threads among your "peers". He found it a waste of time. Any idiot with a keypad and an opinion can go on a rant, feel important, and bombard you with the same questions over and over again. Jason's comment threads attract a lot of Internet bullies. The posting of facts and the honesty to state when they're merely opinions does occur here. It just gets overshadowed by the haters. And when they get someone to appear who has been a guest on Scott's show, it's like Christmas to them. It invariably turns into a pile on.
1/10/2014 11:57:23 pm
You are quite right, Steve. Any idiot with a keypad and an opinion can go on a rant, as you have ably and repeatedly proved. I'm glad, too, that you feel that ranting about crying to mommy and living in one's parents' basement is admirable conduct. You have done us all a great service by establishing the boundaries of what those whom you support may say and that which those who oppose you are forbidden to say, which of course are the same.
1/11/2014 01:27:48 am
Sheena and Hank. We need real evidence from people who make extraordinary claims, like, "I've made the most important archaeological discovery in the Western Hemisphere!” To make such a claim, and not back it with evidence is an insult to those who devote themselves to the rigors of academically sound history and science. Harry agreed to engage in a Q&A here, and he hasn’t provided any substantial evidence for his wild claims. He is not serious and is selling snake oil.
1/11/2014 01:40:48 am
Awe Jason, you poor fellow. Can't take it when people do you the same way you do them. No buddy, you provided false information to your colony on your blog WITHOUT doing your homework, and for that, you were scolded. As for REAL EVIDENCE, I've written two books, done countless interviews, produced dozens of documentaries and all you can do is jump up and down on the sidelines waving your pompoms. You are little more than a cheerleader for your team and I'm sure you've never done anything to prove your point, if you had a point. How many ancient languages do you know? How many years do you think it would take for me to teach you? Well, you can watch our video Etruscan Volume I and get a good idea of how Latin and Punic are written and read. There is always a remedy for ignorance (which simply means 'don't know'), but there is no remedy for stupid.
1/11/2014 03:41:51 am
HH You have a massive ego. It is a huge part to your brain. Anyone that thinks they know everything about so many topics with 100% certainty and then calls everyone else stupid or ignorant, makes you sound very dumb. Try some humility and say I really believe I am right on this and here is why. That is how smart people sound. Not everything you speak of with such certainty is 100% accurate. That is certain. I know you think everything you say is right, but that huge part of your brain that thinks so is your ego.
1/11/2014 05:36:18 am
Talk about meant to be. I just received this via email……OVERCOMING YOUR EGO - Sue Fitzmaurice (Author) -stop being offended -let go of the need to win -let go of the need to be right -let go of the need to be superior -let go of the need to have more -let go of identifying yourself by your achievements - let go of your reputation.
1/10/2014 11:09:12 pm
I think people ask the same questions because none of them have been answered.
1/11/2014 02:03:15 am
And pray tell where this genius came from.... Good to see Jason use the word idiot in his post. I was just guessing about the parent's thingy. Perhaps I missed my calling and should have been a psychologist after all. For all your bloggers, to get that in the park, I must have a good perspective don't you think?
1/11/2014 02:21:50 am
1/11/2014 02:51:49 am
Will, you're just stupid!
1/11/2014 03:46:51 am
HH To call someone stupid in this case says lots about you. You must have some serious anger issues or something to be so rude and mean to people.
1/11/2014 09:16:45 am
Shell P must stand for Shellys Perception! Jasons hench men are on the prowl again! Harry, Im telling you you are wasting your time here battling with brain warped bullies who only bow to what Jason says. I heard through an ex member he wishes he could be up there with Childress, Wolter, and yourself, and I sort of fell a bit sorry for the guy. Jason has worked hard on his info and is a smart guy, but . a poster said he was turned away from Wolter for submitting one of his theories to the show, If this is so, it explains his vendetta against him.
1/11/2014 09:22:14 am
"Wolter Fan" is the same person who has been posting under numerous aliases on several blog posts, including as an Afrocentrist. I have not now nor have I ever had any contact with Committee Films or America Unearthed, let alone "submitted an idea" to the show. Indeed, checking my archives shows that I critiqued Wolter's work long before America Unearthed started, when he published a Bat Creek Stone analysis in Ancient American. As I wrote at the time of the first episode, I decided to review the show only because it came on after Ancient Aliens, which I had been reviewing for more than a year at that point.
1/11/2014 01:47:50 am
Harry, I provided you with an open forum to talk at any length you wanted about your chosen subject, and you repaid this with vitriol, accusations, and insults. My purpose here was not to evaluate your claims but to give you the space to explain why we should believe you. In return, I and my readers received no evidence but rather requests for money and personal insults.
1/11/2014 02:28:03 am
Oh BS Jason. You didn't provide a soapbox at all. I offered to jump into your pit of vipers and you unknowingly didn't realize I like snakes. I have read much on this blog and you think nothing of slandering, belittling and insulting people at your whim. When you post something, you look for the most degrading and bad information you can find on the net and run with it. As for me, manu forti, ne cede malis, sed conta audentior ito.
1/11/2014 02:34:08 am
You said you would only provide information on non-cave-related claims for cash. That would be a request for money. Do I misunderstand what "I will debate this issue very easily for money and nothing less" means?
1/11/2014 02:51:08 am
No. The website says those items are debatable for money. That is not asking you for money. Remedial English grammar gone sour here. As for A & E...I'd bet those guys are laughing their tails off watching you and your bloggers get their butts spanked. Oh Jason, you so want to be the angel of truth don't you? Sapere aude.
1/11/2014 02:56:55 am
The quote, my dear Harry, was directly from your response to me in our interview, not from your website. I asked you a question about issues that are related to North American prehistory (the Maya and Blavatsky being relevant to both by dint of fringe history claims), and you said you would only answer for money. That's not a grammar issue. When others asked you about these issues, you similarly responded by stating you would answer only for money.
1/11/2014 03:01:29 am
Fetish: Fixation with objects, body parts, or situations not conventionally viewed as being sexual in nature.
1/10/2014 07:47:35 am
Harry, what would you recommend to the dozens of folks who purchased Burrows Cave items over the years? Apparently, they started cheap at first and progressed upwards in value. Should the old people (and collectors like Wolter) feel safe with their investments? That you know of, is there a still-flourishing market for these items? Do you have any for sale yourself? Thanks.
1/10/2014 08:51:23 am
Great questions. The fakes and tainteds popped up heavy summer of 1995. We told all the buyers to stop purchasing them because Burrows then knew enough about the script to forge certain letters with their associated symbols. He told his buyers to have nothing to do with us and if they did, he'd stop selling them stones. I have seen entire collections people paid good money for that are all badly tainted or completely forged by Burrows. Any stone purchased after summer of 1995 is most like a bogus piece. When I say a Taint, I mean that Burrows has added letters or symbols to the tablets. All of the Jesus stones are fake. All of the Finiteres are tainted. The collection Wolter has was purchased from a collector who bought his stones before 1995. Wolter's collection is fabulous, but there are still many taints and forgeries.
1/10/2014 11:27:05 am
Thank you. Further, I'm wondering about this transition period, when apparently the selling went from authentic to tainted or faked artifacts. What you are saying, basically, is that Burrows corrupted the legitimate selling of these artifacts, right? He found that the authentic objects fetched good profit, so he began to manufacture fakes one to "piggy-back" off the real ones, right? This transition took place around 1995, and this seems like a kind of nightmare you are involved in, trying to separate the real from faked items.
1/10/2014 01:12:39 pm
Jason's questions are legitimate.
1/10/2014 02:22:12 pm
Thank you for your advice Gunn, however, I never posted here to get any advise from anybody and certainly have no intention of asking for such, but thank you again for showing some....errr....compassion. Best to you.
1/10/2014 02:26:31 pm
A second response. Yes, Burrows was first selling pieces for $5 up to $10 dollars. The first piece he got $25 for was a relief of Julius Caesar and he had no idea who it was on the marble tablet. As time drew on, he got better prices. The most paid for a stone, that I know of, was $10K. I do occasionally broke tablets. Whenever I hear of a collection or piece up for sale, I pool as many resources as I can hoping to obtain them. I personally have 3 left. I lost 15 in a fire back in 2008.
1/10/2014 03:21:36 pm
Dont listen to them Harry! He is trying to be a shock jock of history and media like Howard Stern and uses his bad of bullies to make up theories! They would not know knowledge if it hit them!
1/10/2014 07:50:57 am
HH - another questions if you don't mind. In your response you said that Scott Wolter "has a tablet about a foot tall of a king in Egyptian garb holding a staff and an ankh...." and "Scott has three fine tablets depicting Cleopatra...". Do you know if these are from the Illinois caves or did Scott Wolter obtained these from other sources?
1/10/2014 02:19:48 pm
Several years ago, Scott purchased a massive collection from a museum designer. What you guys don't know is that it was high end antiquties dealers, museum designers and museum display artists who were buying Burrows' stones. Yeah, all these guys must have been stupid to buy all those fake artifacts. :-)
1/10/2014 02:53:47 pm
HH, were these museum designers and museum display artists buying the stones for props, like having a great looking Spanish sword in a glass case, made in India, for a prop...to decorate a room? I'm curious about why these groups of people would be interested in the stones, or how they became interested in the stones. Do you think they wanted to re-sell the artifacts for a handsome profit, if possible? This is a different approach than selling fake stones where fake knapped spear-points were hawked at local out-door markets, for instance. Thanks.
1/11/2014 12:11:18 pm
According to SW, since he does not know the environment they came from, he is not sure if these stones are genuine.
1/10/2014 09:04:22 am
Mr. Hubbard, for the sake of your own credibility, what are your credentials for determining the veracity of the alleged artifacts? What specific facility or facilities did the external verifications?
1/10/2014 02:17:28 pm
As stated earlier, they have been authenticated. But there are hundreds that wouldn't stand a chance.
1/10/2014 03:57:15 pm
My apologies! Sometimes Jason can be a bit hard in the interviews but he is passionate about history, it just sometimes get in the way of facts!
1/11/2014 05:29:40 am
I wish whoever is trying to steal my name here would just stop. It's old, lame, and childish. And you can't even spell it right.
1/10/2014 09:31:02 am
1/10/2014 02:14:55 pm
Proper peer review...? Did that 20 years ago. Sorry you missed it. However, there are dozens of our decipherment videos online...care to watch any of them? Why don't you become my peer and actually critique something of substance?
1/10/2014 02:42:30 pm
I would be more than happy to stand corrected if you could provide me with the name and date of publication of peer reviewed evidence.
1/11/2014 01:33:20 am
HH said, "Proper peer review...? Did that 20 years ago."
1/11/2014 01:53:31 am
Just search the net and come back better informed.
1/11/2014 02:13:14 am
HH, again not to be confrontational, but why not just provide us with the link/date/publication?
Up with the people!
1/11/2014 02:23:32 am
Harry is only attempting to gin up google searches, etc.There is neither any paper nor any peer review.
1/11/2014 02:27:54 am
I suppose he is trying to generate more site traffic.
Harry (Not Hubbard)
1/11/2014 04:25:41 pm
Judging from the list of "debatable issues" on HH's website, I take it that the peer review thing did not go well. Like Will, though, I am happy to be proven wrong, if he can legitimately cite one peer reviewed paper he actually published.
1/10/2014 09:57:04 am
if the most logical and truthful statement H.H has truly made
1/10/2014 02:15:57 pm
Thank you and well stated.
1/10/2014 01:31:14 pm
I'm fascinated by folks like Harry Hubbard.
1/10/2014 02:12:54 pm
Just another cheap shot. Is there anyone in there Dave??
1/10/2014 02:16:32 pm
Funny you would mention Harry's possible motivations, whether of a financial or "self-centered" psychological approach--or, presumably, a combination of both.
1/10/2014 02:30:30 pm
Like I said, I only have 3 right now. One is a marble tablet, one is the Baetis River stone and the other is the largest piece of calcite ever to have come from any native quarry...and it glows in the dark under UV with brilliant PH. That one is named Peek-A-Boo because there's a man peeping out at you through a hole.
1/10/2014 02:43:37 pm
Are you talking about a rock with a hole in it? Should I let this one pass...after all, I have TS. Okay, I'll let it pass.... (Sorry, HH, a private joke here.)
1/10/2014 03:16:03 pm
Absolutely not Gunn. Our story is far more convoluted than what I can dispose of here. If you want to read my two books email me at illinoistombman2@hotmail and I'll send you a link to get them post gratis. Many people have told me they are the best most exciting books they've ever read. Then you can make an honest judgement of what happened for yourself and you can post it here on Jason's blog source. Are you willing to take a ride? Oh, you have to have an e-reader to download them. I'd suppose if you read them, you could comment on them here and who knows? Perhaps someone else might like to check them out...maybe even Mr. Hamilton. Then he could see for himself, the last thing I could ever be is an egotist. After all the death threats I've gotten through the years, I'm just happy to be alive. I came here knowing full well it was a pit of vipers. But one of my managers instructed me to come forward here to boost my google ratings. I sure do thank all you guys for your comments, good or bad, insult or compliment, at least you're not asleep. It sure would help if you knew more about us though as I am only one person in a group.
1/10/2014 03:15:21 pm
Harry Hubbard! I do not like the way these posters are mocking you and your work. People may not agree, but to see them calling names like an adolescent with this gang mob mentality is not the way to get a point across.They dont want the truth, the just want to stir up controversy to get his on this page. I wonder if they would even try to intervie Wolter if they had the chance. I dont agree with all of Wolters show, but this site is way off for bringing a remedy to archeology. Keep up your great work Mr. Hubbard
1/10/2014 03:17:31 pm
NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' 'BOUT!!
The real slim shady.
1/11/2014 01:42:46 am
Hubbard, "...You gotta remember, I've been doing this for 20 years. I eat people like you and your colony for breakfast. You don't believe in ETs or flying saucers because you are an idiot and I would say you have never read the works of Charles Fort either. Now are you going to cry and run to mommy because I called you an idiot? I wonder if you still live at home with your parents."
1/11/2014 01:49:03 am
No slim...no one here deserves any respect. Are you respectable? What have you done? Is that the best comment you can come up with?
1/11/2014 02:43:39 am
Joh and others,
1/11/2014 02:53:51 am
I love the way you imply I am somehow responsible for what other people choose to comment. Do you police your own comments, Steve? Do you recognize these gems from your YouTube channel?
1/11/2014 03:02:03 am
I would say that from Wolter's , Committee Film, and History/A&E's perspective a website like this is a good thing.
1/11/2014 03:24:49 am
You're not responsible for their comments, Jason. But understand, you openly provide the forum and you certainly fan the flames. I don't police my YouTube channel comments because I don't pay attention to the comments. Occasionally I'll scroll down into them and engage. If there's a crazy in them, I tend to be neutral of make no comment at all.
1/11/2014 04:01:15 am
Steve, what policy would you recommend? Your friend Scott Wolter moderates the comments on his blog, and that generated complaints that he was censoring comments. If I were to do the same, you would undoubtedly be the first to accuse me of censoring you. Since I love the attention so much, that's obviously why I used to have a restricted comments policy where discussion closed after a fixed period. It turns out that didn't work very well and visitors coming months or years after the fact were feeling left out.
1/11/2014 04:30:25 am
'…what policy would you recommend?'
1/11/2014 04:50:36 am
1/11/2014 05:44:20 am
"'…what policy would you recommend?'
Ignorance Is bliss
1/11/2014 08:26:55 am
Steve! You nailed it on the head! best response ever to these non intellectuals
1/10/2014 05:29:26 pm
Isn't your actual name Horatio Rybnikar, and "Harry Hubbard" is just an alias?
1/11/2014 01:47:05 am
Someone on this comical blog has a pulse. Best to you Dan, nice to meet you. My nickname from the early 70s was Horatio. Harry comes out of that. My mother's maiden name was Rybnikar, her parents were from Czechoslovakia. I used Horatio Rybnikar up to about 1998 as a stage name and pen name, as that is what appears on old Glass Hammer CDs and such. Paul, who's last name is Kelly, uses his mother's maiden name Schaffranke. It was all so confusing years ago during the dawn of the web to keep it all straight, so Harry Hubbard is what society in general labeled me. They are all aliases.
1/11/2014 01:53:08 am
Okay not trying to be confrontational or anything just for clarity.
1/11/2014 01:56:38 am
Just read my bio at www.illinoiscaves.com.
1/11/2014 01:57:30 am
I am confused as well.
1/11/2014 02:04:04 am
Pen names are much easier to remember.
1/11/2014 02:10:52 am
After reviewing your self-published biography on your website, I have walked away with more questions than answers.
1/11/2014 02:12:11 am
Not to be confrontational but:
1/11/2014 02:22:30 am
I actually can understand a bit. I use Matt Mc (which is 2/3 of my name, I believe Jason knows my name as I have emailed him) as a name on here a completely different name from my own on FB, only place I use my real name is linkden. I do this simply because I do a lot of freelance work and if I happen to mention my own personal social or political beliefs I do not want that to prevent me from getting work in the future. A lot of both conservative and liberal groups or stations will not hire you if you are vocal about opposing beliefs. I would rather not do this, just like I would rather not be registered as "independent" on my voter status. I however like to show that despite my beliefs I can and will not let those beliefs interfere with the work I am hired to do.
1/11/2014 02:24:39 am
OK, I can understand the pen names thing to a certain degree considering what Matt said.
1/11/2014 02:31:46 am
Try changing history Will and see how many friends you have. My hat's off to Scott Wolter for kicking down the door of pre-Columbian presence here in America. He told me years ago, "The door's been kicked in, I opened it for you. Now all you have to do is stay with it and walk in."
1/11/2014 02:37:49 am
I don't know if you want to follow Scott in that door honestly.
1/11/2014 01:46:27 am
Didn't Clive cussler have a plot in his book treasure about a roman fleet sailing up the rio grand with the treasures from the great library at Alexandria? I wonder if he took the burrows cave claims as a plot idea. It was one of his better plots.
1/11/2014 01:55:46 am
Cussler's book came out years before we were involved and I've never read it. I don't read fiction except for evolution books which I read constantly. The ships had sails and were paddled by oarsmen and yes, they were huge.
1/11/2014 06:04:05 am
Titus, I can't see a Roman galley being that much heavier than a fully-loaded three-story floating casino, otherwise known as a steamboat. They paddled the Mississippi for any number of years. Granted, they used steam to drive paddle wheels rather than oarsmen to drive oars, but I don't know that "how did they get up the Mississippi?" is the real deal-breaker question here. I mean, we're talking oarsmen who could row fast enough to ram their ships into each other hard enough to open massive holes. According, I admit, to Wikipedia, that's anywhere from 4 to 8 knots. The Mississippi river's current runs anywhere from 1-3 knots, according to the National Park Service (and an mph-to-knots translator). (http://www.nps.gov/miss/riverfacts.htm) Admittedly, galleys travelling with treasure aboard were probably heavier than a war-galley, but it's still easily within the realms of "physically possible."
There are several problems with pre-modern ships on the Mississippi river Most ships, prior to steam, made a one way trip down the Mississippi riding the current. To go upstream required too much manpower because of the current. Yes, your Roman warships could achieve speeds of 4 to 8 knots, but that was only for short distances, often less than mile. As for the steamboat, it is not only steam driven, it also has a wide flat bottom that gives it the buoyancy it needs to stay afloat.
1/11/2014 02:40:30 am
Harry, my guess on this public blog is that you have so much of yourself and your time (possibly money, too?) invested in this fraud that it seems impossible to detach yourself from it.
1/11/2014 02:58:54 am
I'll be sure to do that Gunn. Thank you so much for your elevated intellectual advice. I have such issues that you have made clear to me. At your bidding, I'm going to change my name right now. You are such a kind and caring person to share your blissful disdain. I think I'll just chase a new discovery and work on those tablets instead. So I'm supposed to quit because YOU say it's a fraud. You must be nuts. To me, since you are obscene, will you change your name and go play somewhere else? And no, I'm just snowed in and it's miserable outside so I've had some time to blog with you guys.
1/11/2014 03:04:44 am
This is ment as no offense to the Harry and Gunn,
1/11/2014 03:48:17 am
With Jason's permission, I will debate you endlessly here, Matt McNutt, about the authenticity of the KRS. How dare you compare the KRS, which has ever-increasing scientific provenance, with this garbage discussed in this thread. There is no irony. To say "KRS" and "Burrows Cave" in the same breath is an insult, though you say no offense is to be taken.
Discovery of America
1/11/2014 03:53:03 am
The Kensington Rune Stone has no provenance
1/11/2014 04:18:02 am
Gunn and I have said in the past, I will gladly join in conversation with you when you choose not to name call and insult people. I was quite impressed with your discourse this morning. As I said I ment no insult. You might feel your idea's are different but I see them the same way you see Harry's. And you are correct you are not trying to make a quick buck and I did not mean to imply so, if I gave that impression that was not my intention.
1/11/2014 03:54:08 am
"No contemporary evidence relating to the Kensington stone is known from the time of its discovery in November, 1898, until January 1, 1899. No letter or diary record of it, written within a few days or weeks after the discovery, has come to light. The stone was unearthed by laymen, not archaeologists. The details of the find were not at the time recorded in a scholar's notebook. No report was sent to any newspaper in November or December, 1898, as far as is known, or to the Minnesota Historical Society. No one seems to have photographed the stone at the site where it was found or in the Ohman yard or at the bank or store in Kensington. The first known letter written about the stone bears the date January 1, 1899, and the first known mention of it in print is dated January 14, 1899. No one has offered a satisfactory explanation of this contemporary silence of two months, which is difficult to understand on any hypothesis." (Blegen, 1968)
1/11/2014 04:30:07 am
ps I agree that the KRS does not deserve to be grouped with Burrow's Cave. The KRS is a sophisticated forgery, carefully planned and executed. Burrow's Cave is crass by comparison, and has a whiff of carnival huckster about it.
1/11/2014 05:18:33 am
But you do have to hand it to Burrows and "Hubbard". Burrows is a retired correctional guard with no academic background and "Hubbard" is a high school dropout with a background in waste management in Florida and concert promotion. Yet, these two (even as rivals) have managed to turn this complete fraud into a 20-year money-maker, have appeared on national tv, and now have taken up multiple topics on this skeptics blog. They may be crass hucksters and snake oil salesman, but by sheer persistence have given "Burrows Cave" a life of its own and perhaps a greater public profile than KRS. Its like the Bigfoot of archaeology.
1/11/2014 04:44:33 am
Matt McNutt, you are the offender here. What you have opened the door to is a comparison and contrasting of Ohman and Burrows. Besides offending me, knowingly, you have just pooped on an honorable man's grave. LynnBrant, you have a problem. Neither you nor Matt mind pooping on a good man's grave.
1/11/2014 04:53:50 am
For the record, I do believe Olof Ohman was a good man. I've even said that in the position I think he may have been in, I may have done the same thing. So get off your high horse. Olof wasn't the first good man to be caught up in a web of deceit.
Discovery of America
1/11/2014 05:09:06 am
There's absolutely no evidence that Olof Ohman was "used". More to the point, there's no signpost heading that direction.
1/11/2014 05:11:14 am
LynnBrant, you have just publicly declared that Olaf Ohman was caught up in deceit.
Discovery of America
1/11/2014 05:32:09 am
1/11/2014 05:41:14 am
Discovery, I disagree, there are many signposts. Surely you know that the dominate opinion nationally among those who know the KRS exists, is and has long been that Ohman did it himself. But over the years we've learned that it is far too sophisticated for him to have done alone. Far more logical is that the real perpetrator went looking for a finder, and that Olof's role was limited to that. Either it's authentic, Olof did it alone, or others were involved and he was the finder. I find the latter by far the most plausible.
1/11/2014 05:04:08 am
Also my comment was not on the finding of KRS or anything like that, Rather Harries weird tales of Roman cities in the Midwest and Gunn tales of whatever cities and river meetings and holes. Both are fantastic to say the least.
1/11/2014 05:13:51 am
Obviously, jackass, because you set out to offend me.
1/11/2014 05:23:17 am
No I thought it was ironic that you off all people where questions tall tales based on civilizations in prehistoric US. Not ment to insult just ment to mention that I found it very ironic. You came up with the tales, just like Harry came up with his. Just funny seeing one tale maker tell the other tale maker that the tales are ridiculous.
1/11/2014 05:44:16 am
One can't help but note that Gunn gets positively overwhelmed with his own emotions. He is totally incapable of mustering up a scintilla of scientific detachment and objectivity.
1/11/2014 06:40:52 am
I get overwhelmed with emotion by calling you two jackasses? It doesn't require emotion, only reading ability.
1/11/2014 09:20:40 am
No, Gunn, I would not disparage Olaf Ohman or his family. I've never claimed to be a Southern gentleman, but that would be lower than a snake's belly in a wagon rut. As far as I'm concerned, any allegations of his involvement in the KRS's creation, placement and finding are just anecdotal. Until verifiable proof overturns this, the allegations are as worthless as a bucket of spit.
Only Me, I was making a point...nothing personal intended, other than the reference to me playing into talking off-thread, if that whole conversation could have been considered off-thread. I was talking about the art of provoking me to discuss KRS related matters...off-thread?
1/11/2014 05:43:39 am
The comment by HH about Scott Wolter kicking down the door of pre-Columbian presence here in America and quoting Wolter as saying years ago, "The door's been kicked in, I opened it for you, now all you have to do is stay with it and walk in."
1/11/2014 06:27:11 am
1/11/2014 06:39:27 am
LOL @ "But not just anyone can rise to the level of American TV host."
1/11/2014 09:19:42 am
Scott Wolter can make some $$$ by getting on the UFO/Bigfoot/Paranormal conference circuit.
1/11/2014 09:14:46 am
Hey don't insult professional wrestlers! At least Vince McMahon admits his shows are "sports entertainment."
Theta Anno Domini
1/11/2014 09:02:42 am
WOW! I was told my ideas would be welcome on this site by a friend who knew I was into reading on acient cultures. I really would like to comment, but it seems people are really bullying Hubbard and others over thier position. Some of the comments are helpful but Jason Colovito , some of your posters really do get a bit nasty when they dont agree. I love the info and links people post here be it afrocentric, eurocentric, or aliencentric, and can research to filter out the lies, but some of the group members are a bit childish when it comes to discussionvs I will keep to reading your material on your site respectufully. I dont think new posters should be badgered for sharing info.
1/11/2014 09:09:45 am
You're welcome to share your views, and I'm happy to have you post. However, please understand that I don't control who posts here (as you no doubt saw when you posted your comment). It is unfortunate that Harry Hubbard chose to set a poor tone by making disparaging comments about me.
Theta Anno Domini
1/11/2014 09:20:47 am
Thank you Jason! I appreciate your commentis as I do enjoy your work. What I will do from now on if it is possible is just send them through email. to you. I know my theories are a bit odd, but I rather have them corrected and looked over than dismissed.All of us have small pieces to the puzzle but its too much confusion here. Thanks again
1/11/2014 09:25:34 am
I, too, would like to see the comments be a bit more civil. Ad hominem attacks should be avoided.
1/11/2014 09:18:51 am
Theta Anno Domini
1/11/2014 09:22:01 am
1/11/2014 09:27:54 am
Welcome Theta! I come here mainly to enjoy Jason's amazing reviews of the show America Unearthed and other programs and occasional book reviews.
Theta Anno Domin
1/11/2014 09:23:22 am
Keep of the great work Harry! Jason thank you for your work! Hopefully one day I can hear you all on a radio show!
An Over-Educated Grunt
1/11/2014 12:43:36 pm
Without going into the specifics of any of the claims, if the best rebuttals that can be managed are "you're stupid" and "check out my for-sale items," it's not terribly convincing, either from the standpoint of argument, or the solidity of your point. I've seen peer-reviewed articles bounce with reviewer comments like "Is this a joke?" and "Did a high-schooler write this?" If you get bruised so badly that you have to resort to "you're stupid" in response to a blog post, small wonder you view academia as against you. If that's your response whenever challenged on your evidence... well, sucks to be you, even Newton, for all his horrible personality, could point to his work when challenged.
1/11/2014 01:10:15 pm
Of course Harry Hubbard is not serious.The man is just a megalomaniac but smart enough to target a single digit IQ audience
1/11/2014 01:54:13 pm
My IQ is 180 Tara. What's yours? Nemo mortalium omnibus horis saipitti. I suppose you are the single digit audience here.
An Over-Educated Grunt
1/11/2014 02:13:07 pm
You know what, Hank? I can call you Hank, right, since you're sure to call me whatever comes to mind. You know what, Hank? Any idiot can look up a Latin phrase, and, coincidentally, that one's about halfway down Wikipedia's list of Latin phrases. I'd link it, but you have a 180 IQ, I'm certain you know how search engines work. For a man who claims a 180 IQ, you sure do have a weak grasp on the rules of evidence. You say a thing is so, and it's up to you to prove it is, not the rest of the world's job to disprove you.
1/11/2014 06:17:34 pm
Hubbard.You intentionally avoided the technical questions I addressed you on this thread & the previous thread.Feel free to contact me through my Facebook page,I have connection with people from the Institute of Egyptology at Waseda University Tokyo.Let's see what you got....
1/11/2014 06:31:46 pm
For the sake of the argument I wont even touch the issues related to Hubbard`s distinctive lunacy:(stones,ancient tablets,artifacts depicting Reptilians and "other E.T entities contacts", Mesolithic Dinosaurs....The JFK assassination: According to Hubbard`s observations,the man who shot John Kennedy on Dealey plaza, was actually hiding in the trunk of Kennedy`s own car....).I want to focus on Harry`s expertise : "Celts,Vikings, Phoenicians,Romans,Greeks, Egyptians,they were all there...( in North America).."
1/12/2014 04:53:55 am
I just visited the Illinois Caves website. Don't worry too much about the missing artifact labeled "The Controversial Sword". It is a 19th century sword, probably theatrical or fraternal. There are hundreds if not thousands of others that were made and will identical to the sword in the photos. The hilt is probably brass and not bronze and the iron or steel blade was not made for war. Here is an identical sword complete with its scabbard: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?91911-French-military-academy-sword
1/12/2014 04:56:45 am
Here is another sword like the one on the Illinois Caves site: http://arms2armor.com/Swords/misc5.htm
2/8/2014 08:18:42 pm
Seems too me who loves history. You men are well educated in history or studies of ancient history. At the same time your all like a bunch of little boys in a sandbox. Kicking sand into each other's faces.Get over yourselfs. Also ty for the history lessons.
8/21/2014 02:34:49 am
I am flabbergasted by the recrimination towards someone trying to get some light on interesting subject matter. Harry has obviously read some psychology books to get you all fired up and start researching and coming back with some real questions pertaining to these artifacts. Unfortuneately no one has done the research to ask the right questions and Harry's not giving the real evidence to until someone understands what he is talking about. Enough evidence is there and if you have the intellectual acumen, Harry has given a mountain load of evidence to start any decent investigation. May I suggest to Harry he go on one of those sites that raise money. 1.5mil to buy the site and start a dig. If the tomb is really there this is tuppence to begin. The costs may be high but the crooks have got in first to desecrate the site. If there are further untouched mother loads to be found as implied this would be the greatest discovery. There is no doubt about it, there's money in them hills. Will you all get behind him and help to doooo something worthwhile and be a part of something that could be history. If it doesn't pan out. Then at lest you were a part of a very good caper and you may learn something about ancient history, which can lead anywhere. One thing for sure those artifacts should not be there. So where have they come from? Stop judging and do some work! The worlds watching and waiting and so far all we hear is blah blah blah. The guys offering a great adventure go live it ! Harry you sly young fellow, you should be arrogant and not suffer fools, You've seen your fellow American's destroy and ignore a site that requires serious study. The worlds a devil of a place, and devils abound. Goodluck and I hope to see the results of a careful investigation and dig. The knowledge would be astounding, so much you've deciphered and found evidence of a gobal seafaring peoples leaving traces all over the world. Harry's story shows there were many and varied reasons people challenged the oceans and pursued lives elsewhere in the world where they were safe from death and could have a trading lifestyle still connected to civilization and the old world. Many many questions and the answers so close.
11/3/2014 09:49:05 am
Ok, Harry has spent his life and most of his income on finding this cave. Yes he does have three rocks. One is an old tombstone (American Unearthed). I have talk to him and seen his evidence. There is nothing he has that can be proven to come out of the cave. Yes, he thinks anyone whom disagrees with him is "stupid". That includes me. Fortunately, Harry is in the wrong place and will never get into the cave. .Although he claims to have a lot of friends in the area most of the neighbors think he should go away and leave us all alone. The neighbors, whom lived here during the "Burrow's Cave refinding (NOT LOST JUST HID), remember the mess it was out here. People every where. Digging holes on land that did not belong to them making problems for the farmers and their animals. Cluttering roads so that the school bus and land owners could not get down the roads. And then comes Harry to tell all of us how he wants to open everything to the public..so that HE could make money. Oh, he wants to sell t shirts, have motels and even fast food places out here. He wanted the county to come in and "find the cave" . He stated it should be taken away from the rightful owners. Claiming it was "murder scene". Oh yes, after the county "found the cave", Harry wanted sole access for months to "study" the cave.. The owners of the land in this area had a "special meeting" (those that lived here during the 70's and 80's) decided that they wanted nothing to do with Harry. Yes, most land owners will not even let him on their property, ourselves included. By the way the "old timers" know on which piece of property the cave really exists. And Harry though close can not access the cave from that location. So Harry continue to look in, on and under "your site". Thank God, you will never find it, nor be allowed in it. History is safe from those who wish to make money from it. This site will be protected from people who are greedy and wish to steal "our history" from us, our families, our children, and our grandchildren. The real owners of BURROW'S CAVE.
12/4/2014 04:27:30 am
What a sore loser you are Cindy as nothing was found on your property after extensive subsurface testing. Can you name JUST ONE local landowner who can back up your claims against me? Can you prove any single compliant you state? Of course not. And it is YOU who the persons living nearby who want you out of the area because you and your husband are whacko...and yes, I can provide names by the dozens. It was YOU who temporarily cluttered the roads with campers and trailers, not me, and no one ever dug any holes on your property which is south of the target site. You treated the team attempting to help you with aggressive lunacy and you ripped the leader out of several thousand dollars with your lame and fraudulent cons. There is no cave on your property and your efforts to secure development funds are in vain as others understand there is nothing to your futile crying. After nothing worked for you, you began to tell people there were precious metals ore on your property which is a lie also. You need to continue with your medications and perhaps consider stronger doses or more powerful drugs in the future.
11/21/2015 10:53:10 pm
A few years past I was solicited by Wayne May and others who had made an agreement with Russell to enter the cave. It was a scam by Wayne May and his associates to enter the cave and take everything they possibly could. When I became aware of their plans I expressed my desire to have nothing to do with it and informed Russell of their plans. It turned into death threats and worse. I remained friends with Russell up to the time of his death. Have NOTHING to do with Wayne and his band of thugs since.
2/15/2015 07:20:32 am
Wow HH, answers questions. Still the same old circular logic. Like chicken and the egg. Nothing substantial. Just a bunch of steaming pile of dung in order to make some dough.
3/22/2015 10:08:44 am
If you disagree with HH "you are nuts and need medicine". This is why no one wants him on their property. As for Peter's " for $10.00 contract", your right, we would have been "nuts to agree". We could "see the cave but not be allowed in. Peter could dispose of all artifacts as he sees fit ( to the highest bidder)" not to the museum as agreed. Could dig and do anything he wanted on our property.. where ever he wanted. Would not agree to go by the laws of the State of Illinois. Lives in Florida so a civil lawsuit and extradition is not possible. Continually lied to us calling it "disinformation" and was out to STEAL ANYTHING and EVERTHING he could. I am so glad he is "your Friend".." birds of a feather".. YOU brought him to US. LOOKING for Jesse Jame's TREASURE. LOL He is not allowed on our property. AND NEITHER ARE YOU. Also tell your minions to STAY OFF . This land is marked Private Property and it is a felony to be on our land without our permission. Oh, that's right all the land out here is marked. Can you spell FELONY TRESSPASSING?? Maybe you should look up the laws on that. YOU WILL NEVER BE ALLOWED IN THE CAVE PERIOD. Go ROB history for some place else. Make up your stories about some place else. Everyone know that Native Americans lived here not Egyptians!!!! Go look at all the "REAL ARTIFACTS" found in this area. Native American.
5/8/2015 07:52:34 pm
HAY H.H. if you have an I.Q. of 180 then why did you not graduate HIGH SCHOOL ????
10/1/2015 12:21:37 am
Hello Harry Hubbart, where can I see these videos of these Ancient Maps from Valens and Veneti? Thanks in advance, Dave.
10/5/2015 02:27:57 pm
Harry has now gotten Geo Dowser to buy the land directly east of our property. They plan of digging underground from their side to get to the cave on our side. ANYONE know a good lawyer in ILLINOIS??? All those years of looking and Harry was in the wrong place!!! Who is "nuts and crazy"???? We own ALL rights to our property. Harry and Geo Dowser will NOT be allowed to come and STEAL the history of the people of ILLinois. Go home to Georgia Harry and take Geo Dowser back to Florida. For those of you who invested with Geo Dowser.. The property cost $250,000, not a million. Go look at the Marion Co. Courthouse. We will prosecute trespassers both on our ground and below it.
10/5/2015 02:49:08 pm
Notify your local authorities of any plans they may have to trespass upon your property. Make sure you have some actual proof of their intentions. Law enforcement will not take any action unless there is probable cause to believe that a crime is going to be committed which will require proof of their actual intent.
11/10/2015 02:31:21 am
Wow, these horrid retards and trolls trying to bash Harry non stop. I see none of you reading books, making discoveries, or trying to think outside the box. You all are inside a paradox that you will never get out of.
11/21/2015 10:37:28 pm
Harry, Does the name of Ralif Wallick (sp ?) and Wayne May ring any bells?
4/18/2018 10:33:58 am
it has become obvious to me that thousands of ancient workers and copper miners have been in America for thousands of years.
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