Harry Hubbard appeared on America Unearthed on December 28 (S02E05) to discuss the Illinois Caves, alleged final resting place of Alexander the Great, Cleopatra VII, and various and sundry lesser Macedonian dynastic royalty. Among these was Cleopatra’s son by Mark Antony, Alexander Helios, from whom Hubbard’s company, Alexander Helios, Inc., takes its name.
Hubbard agreed to answer some questions by email, and I agreed to run his responses in their entirety, which turned out to be much longer than anticipated, as he provided a lengthy excerpt from one of his publications. I gathered the questions from my own curiosity and many of the excellent questions readers proposed earlier this week. Thanks to everyone for several excellent questions, and thanks to Hubbard for taking the time to answer them.
For those who don’t have the time to read through everything, here are the highlights:
My questions are in bold and Hubbard’s answers in plain text. Some of the questions may seem disjointed because Hubbard broke up my longer questions into smaller sections and answered them piecemeal.
Several readers are interested in your appearance on America Unearthed. Did producers instruct you about what you could or could not discuss?
No, they didn't have to. We all had copies of the script. They knew I was going to give my claim which I wanted to get to any National TV audience. Everything follows a script at the end of editing and all the good footage ends up on the floor. They shot enough scenes and dialog to make several shows if they wanted to.
Did the show represent your point of view accurately?
No. There wasn't near the time spent with the real pieces as they did with my replicas and a couple of fakes. We shot several takes of me deciphering one of Scott's cartouche tablets but I knew they would edit that out. This is one of Scott's several pieces that clearly show Meri-Amen Setep-en-Ra Arksantrs. (Ref. Budge Egyptian Glyph Dictionary Volume II page 942 entry 388.) I had two tables spread out of beautiful pieces many of which had been through forensics but none made it to the episode. Pictures of our layout can be seen on our Facebook site The Illinois Caves.
Was there anything they left out that you felt should have been included?
Yes. For sure, what was left out was any history of this discovery. I taped the history and background of when this discovery first happened at least 3 times. So for the viewer, the whole episode was flying around in the grand canyon in the exact same place I told Jerry Wills about back in 2002 when Paul and I stayed with him for a couple of days. I thought we were going to get our own episode like anything else they had run that was half interesting. Don't get me wrong, I love Scott, he's a great dude, but sometimes it's a bit hard for me to make it deep into some of his shows and I could never watch them as many times as it appears you do.
Second: I had worked hard on a new Egyptian Glyph decipherment off one of the replicated gold medallions that I really wanted on the show. Zak and I knew it was a long shot so we taped me giving the final in English on a short update vid. My notes and how I put it all together are shown on our facebook also. If you study this at all, you can see the syntax is all over the place and the sentences are not structured in a flowing vocative. It's a really good glyph inscription never before seen or heard of on a national scale.
Next: I wanted to show and decipher on their edit another one of Scott's amazing pieces. He has a tablet about a foot tall of a king in Egyptian garb holding a staff and an ankh with the cartouche right there in front of his head in old glyph Meri Amen Setep-en-Ra Arksantrs...who is Alexander the Great. That piece is worth untold millions and I don't think Scott gets it yet.
Then: I wanted to show more of the artifacts I had there and I for sure wanted Scott to bring one of his Cleopatra tablets...I didn't tell him who it was, just bring it. But it was too large and heavy for him to trouble with along with his gear. Scott has three fine tablets depicting Cleopatra...but her name is spelled as KLEOPTRA. "Beloved, Queen of Queens Kleoptra mother of Helios the King." But of course it's written in reverse on the stone which causes some scholars issue because they have never studied ancient languages.
Also: As stated earlier, the history not only of the discovery, but of the classical aspects as well. We didn't just dream all this up. Without a full background of the discovery, people are led to believe Russell Burrows found it and it all began in 1982, but the fact is this site is clearly on record since 1925 when it was first discovered. You can see all this in detail on my video Modern Discovery.
Most Importantly: Our claim was left out. We have been saying for the past 20 years that what people have in some circles popularly dubbed Burrows Cave is indeed the final resting place of the Ptolemaic Dynasty including the cadavers of King Alexander the Great and Queen of Queens Kleoptra.
What evidence can you offer a skeptic to demonstrate that the caves you describe actually exist?
I'd say about 8 and a half gigs. I'd like to offer you a thumb drive with several gigs of pictures, old documents, layouts, data charts, hundreds of documents for you to see if you want to. Let me be very clear on this. We tapped the mother lode and it happened to be in Marion County Illinois. There has NEVER in the history of archaeological discovery any ancient site the world over that has come to light with more artifacts, documentation, books, reports, forensic tests, websites, blogs, videos of decipherment, videos of historical significance all dealing with the important impact of this ancient tomb that was looted by a human styled baboon [Russell Burrows].
Even if all of the artifacts you claim to come from it are genuinely ancient, that does not automatically prove they came from the cave as opposed to, say, California or Europe.
It would be stupid to think someone would go overseas to bring back several thousand pounds of artifacts and sell them for $5, $10, $20. I have Megahead in my shop right now and he weighs over 150lbs. Add to this the many mapstones that show the local river systems with ancient sites marked on them.
You have told me and others that you agree that Russell Burrows fabricated artifacts and otherwise engaged in dishonesty. Why would you trust any claims he made or any artifacts he uncovered?
Burrows is way too stupid to know five different ancient languages and their associated alphabets. Nor would he have ever known what to carve back then. There are too many stones, that Burrows was first selling for way less money than it would have taken him time to carve them. It was only later he started tainting them. Please let me explain also that we do not go by any of Burrows' claims except what he writes in chapters 18 and 56 of his book.
How can you independently confirm the authenticity of the same?
I've had pieces forensically tested at an archaeological lab in Santa Fe. The all passed as +1800 ybp. There is so much including a silver coin that passes as well.
Do you have any images of the interior of the Illinois Caves?
Just what I show on our website. There were others that popped up here and there but they could have been of anything. The only reason I post the pictures I have are because I found the negatives in Jack Ward's files in an envelope labeled Pictures from Inside Cave.
How were artifacts placed in the cave, and in what positions were they found? For example, were they carefully arranged in an intact burial assemblage, or had they been moved after initial deposition?
We will never know.
Are you willing or able to provide original (not duplicate) artifacts from the Illinois caves for authentication by professional Egyptologists or archaeologists?
Oh sure. I had mine authenticated back in the late '90s. But it would help if you could find an Egyptologist who could actually read glyph. I haven't found any yet. It appears to me that by today's standards, anyone who can read a Cairo street map is automatically an Egyptologist.
Is there any additional evidence of Greeks or Egyptians in pre-Columbian Illinois beyond this cave, such as house foundations, Greek-style cities, linguistic evidence, genetic evidence, etc.?
There are Roman and Greek coins found all over this country. You can read about that in history books from the 1800s or even Charles Fort documents dozens of ancient coins found right here in Illinois. There are ancient forts, settlements and defensive walls along with mounds throughout this area. People have found artifacts depicting elephants near here and I am currently working on another Egyptian Amulet found a few miles downstream. About 10 years ago, a pot hunter found a staff head about a mile from our tombsite.
What type of ships did the Greco-Egyptians use to reach America?
We tend to refer to them as Mediterraneans because there are several cultures depicted in this tomb as well as the different languages. They were Roman ships, Trireme, quinquereme and other large ships as well as smaller vessels too.
Why are these ships not depicted in the artifacts we have seen on your website? Those galleys do not appear to be ocean-going vessels.
This issue would be my fault. I have over 100 photos of artifacts with ships and boats. But you have to remember these stones are mostly small and it is hard to carve an ocean going vessel on them. The ships hulls are truncated. These ancient artisans had no idea people thousands of years later would be criticizing their handiwork.
You claim that Alexander Helios, the son of Cleopatra VII, fled Egypt and came to America after Augustus’ defeat of Antony and Cleopatra. The last historical reference to him, by Cassius Dio (51.15.6), states that Octavian (the future Augustus) had taken Alexander Helios to Rome and pardoned him. Why would he be fleeing Octavian if he had been pardoned?
You are wrong. Here is what I have documented concerning such mistaken information. This is an excerpt from book #1 dated 1994. If you can find where I have indicated otherwise......? More on this to follow.
[Editor's note: Here he reproduces a lengthy section from the overview to Alexander Helios, which appears below, with Hubbard's original copyright notice at left.]
[Hubbard resumes his answer here]
You can also read more of my work directly pertaining to this issue at this link.
Why would he choose America instead of a closer anti-Roman stronghold?
We are historians, not psychologists.
Is there any evidence that Alexander Helios ever left Europe other than the disputed Illinois artifacts?
No, he simply falls off the face of history.
How did Alexander Helios, resident in Rome, get seagoing ships and supplies to sail to America with a large contingent without any Romans noticing or recording the event?
You can see Paul [Schaffranke]'s decipherment of the "Numerius" tablet at the end of our Etruscan Volume One video for these answers. The event had to have been noticed, but perhaps not recorded. Or you can read and deduce from the article posted above.
Why did the anti-imperial historians of the early empire fail to record this important humiliation of Augustus, the “escape” of his enemy’s son?
We believe it wasn't an insult. There were thousands of legionnaires who did not wish to fight for Octavian (he wasn't Augustus yet.) We think Octavian was more than happy to let them go because he wouldn't have a mutiny on his hands and he wouldn't have to pay them money or land for their services.
You told me that internet postings about you claiming that a UFO carried Alexander the Great’s body to Illinois were false. This YouTube video from 1998 shows you discussing extraterrestrials in the context of the Illinois Caves artifacts and asserting that ancient texts, particularly Pliny’s Natural History, are “UFO books.” You also assert that artifacts from the Illinois Caves are “obvious” depictions of ETs and their crafts. Do you believe in ancient astronauts?
Of course. Thank you for watching my video. It has gotten rave reviews for years.
If not, why were your statements about aliens in 1998 incorrect?
I say I don't believe in UFOs or Aliens. I believe they have been here longer than we have and just because I don't know what kind of ship it is soaring across the sky with lightning speed doesn't mean the guy driving it doesn't. He knows if it's a Ford or a Chevy and probably knows how to check the oil too. I prefer to call them saucers or AFOs.
On your website, you write that “evidence” indicates that gold from the Illinois caves was sold to the U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing via Fort Knox. What is this evidence?
Because of the letters I have dated in the late 1980s involving Fort Knox along with senators and congressmen from Indiana.
Who sold the gold?
Burrows and [Jack] Ward.
Since the Bureau of Engraving and Printing handles only fiat currency (Federal Reserve notes), not bullion or coinage, what did they do with this gold?
You are wrong. Ever heard of the Golden Eagle? It is a US coin and backed by the Fed. It is my speculation; I am going to stick my neck out again and declare that it is possible, the 1991 US Coin Golden Eagles contain the gold smelted down from this tomb.
[Editor's note: The U.S. Gold Eagle coin was authorized in 1985 by an Act of Congress and is produced by the United States Mint, not the Federal Reserve. They are not backed by the Federal Reserve but hold value based on their gold content, certified by the U.S. Treasury Department.]
On your website, you state that Helena Blavatsky did not exist and was invented in the 1920s. How do you explain the existence of The Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled, and other documentary evidence of her existence prior to 1920? How did her name end up in public records, newspapers, and other sources from the 1800s?
This is debatable and has nothing to do with this tomb. I will debate this issue very easily for money and nothing less. My research is not only entertaining but worthy of being learned by people who have not examined the data. I will leave you with this hint though...Are there any Blacks in Russia today??? To believe or think a mulatto or black woman lived in the middle of Russia during the mid 1800s is absolute stupidity!! Only on the internet. Physically show me one single book printed in Russia during the 1800s that has Blavatsky in it. Have you ever even seen a book printed in Russia before WWII? What did you notice about it??
On the same page, you assert that the Maya never existed. Who or what built their cities, and how could linguists have deciphered their language to discover a coherent account of their history if they did not exist?
Again, this is not tomb related...but it all has to do with semantics.
You have stated to me and to others that your standard of evidence regarding the Illinois Caves is “prove us wrong.”
I have never said this was my standard of evidence that I know of. Please verify your statement. But no one the world over has, can or ever will be able to prove us wrong. We did it. We identified the big one.
Do you apply this standard of proof in your own life? For example, do you believe in alien abductions since no one can prove they are not happening? Or ghosts? Or ancient astronauts? If not, why is the standard of proof different for your caves?
I am for more skeptical than you can or will be. I have a reputation to identify with in an Historical sense that can easily be identified with by hearing my dozens of online interviews, watching my videos and reading my books. I don't flip-flop, change my mind or later admit I got something wrong. The rest is for any unassuming and unbiased person to travel his own path of investigation and research to make his or her own determinations. As with several of our videos, we don't tell you what to think, we just show you the facts.....go make up your own mind.
There is no advantage to me or my project if you just woke up one day and admitted to yourself....hey, that Harry Hubbard was right about something. Well, sorry to inform, but no big deal. As near as I can see, you are not a historian nor do you study ancient languages on a regular basis. It appears you are only a bit 'skeptical' which is really very little on the tree limb of life. If you go into your research with an already supposed outcome, you will certainly make the outcome work for you. We never set out to discover Alexander's Tomb....no one dreams of this as a child....and we would never have been in this position had we not read the history books, studied the Greek, Latin, Punic, Glyph and Numidian....who else could have done what we did? If our information came from some other person, would it have been more believable? Or, what if this discovery were made in Egypt, Sudan or Spain? It would have been jumped on 90 years ago.
As far as me attempting to sell my books and make some money off of the world's greatest discovery is all very wrong and undisciplined, but not for others who have never made any discoveries or deciphered ancient unknown text? Should I have been a basketball star with orange hair and multiple body piercings?? Thank you for the opportunity to enlighten you and your devout audience. Harry Hubbard
[Editor's note: None of my questions referenced financial interests, money, or his motivation for monetizing the alleged tomb.]
After the Interview
Harry Hubbard felt I did not fairly represent his position in summarizing his interview in my introduction and that therefore I am biased. In his interview he stated "I say I don't believe in UFOs or Aliens. I believe they have been here longer than we have..." You can draw your own conclusions about whether I should have believed the first sentence or the second, or his 1998 YouTube video about "aliens" and the "craft" seen by the alleged occupants of the Illinois Caves. He also wants to make sure we all know that he has geophysical evidence of hollow spaces under the ground around the alleged cave site, which I guess is supposed to prove that there are caves. This, of course, proves nothing about the contents of said caves.
Anyway, here is his follow up message in full:
Follow Up Statement by Harry Hubbard
No, Harry does not and has never believed ancient astronauts had anything to do whatsoever with this cave. I only state that it appears these ancient people saw ancient strangers along with strange ships in the sky. Nothing more, nothing less. Please make the correction and do your best not to interject opinion not based on fact.
You have made another incorrect assumption. We have conducted Earth Resistivity on the target property several times. There is a large room under one bluff and a cavern system under the other one.
Please don't put words in my mouth via assumption. Please get our story correct without your bias. Be biased on your time not mine. HH
I thought you did a great job with the presentation and I did touch on your other subjects, just not in fine detail. Please make note of that. Everyone tries to make me sound like a monster, but I just want to get the facts straight.....thank you.
Hubbard then delivered another follow-up, attacking me personally.
Second Follow Up by Harry Hubbard
[S]ince when did anyone's claims matter to you at all??? You, I assume, suppose yourself to be a fair skeptic, but when you are faced with facts and corrections, you become humble? Come on Jason, if I was afraid of being attacked or smeared, I would never have bothered with you or your blog. All you guys do is attack and smear. I expect no less. I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings or made you uncomfortable. Perhaps I should go to some better skeptics blog. Do you know anyone who is better than you at what you do? You and your bloggers attack me, make insulting accusations, call me names and I'm the BAD GUY. I say to you and your cyber family, Man Up or move on. Is that clear enough? What's your next childish statement or stupid question? Am I supposed to run and hide because someone doesn't like me what what (sic) I'm saying. You gotta remember, I've been doing this for 20 years. I eat people like you and your colony for breakfast. You don't believe in ETs or flying saucers because you are an idiot and I would say you have never read the works of Charles Fort either. Now are you going to cry and run to mommy because I called you an idiot? I wonder if you still live at home with your parents. Please, by all means, don't listen to my claims. But if you print something about me, make sure it is TRUE!! HH
As per Mr. Hubbard's request, I have printed only what is true, namely his exact words.
I am an author and researcher focusing on pop culture, science, and history. Bylines: New Republic, Slate, etc. There's more about me in the About Jason tab.
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