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Henry Sinclair and the Zeno Narrative in Eighteenth Century Literature

11/8/2018

47 Comments

 
​The myth that Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, a vassal of the king of Norway, was mixed up in the European discovery of America a century before Columbus came to us from Johann Reinhold Forster, a German-born scion of a dispossessed Scottish noble family. Forster wrote in 1784 of Henry Sinclair’s involvement with the brothers Zeno (or Zeni, or Zen), whose story was told in the controversial account of their alleged voyage to Greenland and audience with fisherman who had returned from unknown lands beyond published by their descendant Nicolò Zeno the Younger in the 1500s, two centuries after the fact, and from non-existent documents that the younger Zeno claimed to have destroyed and then recreated from memory. Forster decided that the story’s fanciful manic pixie dream prince, Zichmni of Friesland, was none other than Sinclair: “This name of Sinclair appears to me to be expressed by the word Zichmni.” It was, however, a footnote which Forster labeled as “a conjecture” that struck him while contemplating the geography of the northern Atlantic.
​Forster attributed no particularly great significance to this, mostly on account of his conviction that the Normans—here he means the Vikings and their descendants—had already settled Vinland centuries earlier, so at best the Zeno narrative reports Sinclair’s trip to Greenland and his hearing there some stories of fisherman who had visited the Vinland colony.
 
But Forster’s footnote apparently captured the imagination of his contemporaries. I’d like to share with you a strange account from December 1793 in the Anthologia Hibernica. The majority of the article intended to demonstrate that the Norse reached America and established a colony there, anticipating Carl Rafn’s nearly identical proposition, including some of the same evidence, by four decades. Much of the article is patently derivative of Forster’s version (to which it gives credit) but which lays its racial politics on its sleeve and definitively links the distant territory of Estotiland to America, a step Forster only cautiously suggested. It’s also interesting because it shows that prior to the late 1800s, Sinclair was decidedly not considered a voyager to America himself, undermining a key claim of the Templar/Bloodline enthusiasts:
On the return of the fishermen, Sinclair, then lord of the Orknies, was determined to undertake a voyage to Estotiland, accompanied by Antonio Zeno, an Italian and author of the discoveries related by the fisherman, who had resided 13 years in various parts of America, where he found the inhabitants in nearly the same state as when discovered by the Europeans in more subsequent periods. Sinclair and Zeno however did not arrive in Estotiland, being driven by contrary winds to Greenland from whence they returned home. From this period we have no account of Winland or Estotiland, though Antonio Zeno, besides his letter to his brother, from which the above is taken, wrote a particular account of Estotiland, Iceland, Estland, Norway, &c. which account is now lost. Sebastian Cabot arrived in Newfoundland in 1496, about 116 years after the fisherman mentioned by Zeno. He and subsequent writers and navigators, found, and there still exists, in the interior parts of Newfoundland, a tribe, differing remarkedly from all the American savages, both in their figure and mode o living, and have a strong enmity to the Eskimaux. These are most probably the remains of the Norwegian colony, who have been driven from the sea coasts by the savages: they have corn, are pagans, and tho’ clad in skins, their habit much resembles the ancient Norwegian. A gentleman who resided lately some time among them, assured the writer of this article, that several of their words were the same as the Irish, and that particular sentences so much resembled that tongue that he understood them by it. This however is scarce credible, unless we suppose, that part of the Norwegian colony was composed of Irishmen from Limerick, who followed Ari; or they might be some remains of the Welch colony, which, under the command of Madoc ap Owen, son of Owen Gweneth, prince of North Wales, went from the Isle of Anglesea in 1170, in a fleet of ten sail, to some part of America, but which was never heard of more; and which not improbably united to the Norwegian colony under Ari, and some from Winland, formed the colony and government of Estotiland, whose language being partly Welsh, was unknown to the Orkney fishermen, as mentioned by Zeno.
 
However this may be, it is evident, that we are indebted for the first discovery and settlement of North America by the Europeans, to the ancient Norman people.
​Now contrast this with a Scottish account by Robert Heron from 1797 in A New General History of Scotland, also cited to Forster’s footnote, which elides some inconvenient facts for the sake of Scottish pride and puffs Sinclair up into a heroic figure wholly divorced from the historical record:
Sinclair, a vassal of the Scottish King, about this very period, in the end of the fourteenth century, conquered the Orknies from chieftains who were feudally dependent upon the King of Norway. It was in Sinclair’s service, that Zeno engaged. His talents for navigation, so highly superior to whatever those rude islanders were capable of, recommended him to the highest favour with Sinclair, and enabled him to advance the authority and grandeur of his lord among all the surrounding isles. He contemplated with curiosity, the manners of the rude Hebudians, their poverty, their incessant quarrels, their unwearied, paddling navigation; But, the active spirit of the people of the Orkney and Shetland isles, and the high enterprising ardour of Sinclair, victorious over his foes, and enlightened by the counsels of so able a navigator as Zeno, prompted them to push their enterprizes far away, towards the north-west. Tal Iceland, long since colonized by the Norwegians, they penetrated in some voyages, which were not attended with any very extraordinary difficulties. Greenland was explored by them in other voyages. As well as in Greenland as in Iceland, they found Christianity established, and the inhabitants neither without industry, nor strangers to the comforts which industry bestows. But, the limits of their adventures were not to be fixed, even there. The inhabitants of Greenland had, at this time, frequent intercourse with the people of a more western land, which they named Winland, or Estotiland, had even colonists settled there, and were acquainted with its productions. The existence and the bearings of this land, were made known by them to our adventurers; who repaired eagerly thither, and if not enriched by the voyage, at lest convinced themselves by personal inspection of the truth of what the Greenlanders had related concerning it. That land could be no other than the extensive AMERICAN isle of NEWFOUNDLAND. The bold Norwegians, as it would seem, had discovered the western hemisphere, in those illustrious days of their piratical navigation, when they conquered or ravaged almost all the maritime territories of the middle and northern parts of Europe. Establishing themselves in Iceland, exploring Greenland. […] They were not aware that they had discovered a country, of which the southern parts were rich and fair, and which was afterwards to attract, as to a focus, all the ambition, curiosity, and avarice of almost all Europe; they thought not of the extent and suture importance of America; and they were little careful to register and preserve the memory of their discoveries. It was after the rage for the discovery of new lands had been fully and eagerly awakened, that Zeno went to visit these northern seas, and conducted the inhabitants of the Orkney and Shetland isles to retrace the steps which ancient Norwegian navigators had once pursued. The circumstances of the expedition evince, that these islanders still retained the same spirit which had animated the ancient Norwegians, from whom they were chiefly descended. Had it not been for the memoirs of the Zeno’s, the adventure, like other adventures of a dark age, and a barbarian nation, had most probably been forever forgotten.
​Heron chose to leave out the part where Sinclair became a vassal of the king of Norway, accepted one of that kingdom’s highest titles (jarl), and served at the king’s court.
 
What makes these accounts confounding—but illuminating—is the way they mix some truth with a great deal of Northern European posturing in service of an idea that was partially correct and partially the hope of the British Monarchy (which then included in personal union Scotland and Ireland) to bolster its prestige over the Latin empires of Portugal, France, and Spain by finding for America a mythic ancestor greater than the Italian scoundrel and cur Columbus.
 
To that end, we see why the Zeno narrative and the Sinclair claim became so widely accepted during the nineteenth century, for it provided evidence—from an Italian no less—independent of the Icelandic sagas that the Norse had ventured across the ocean and made their suspected settlements in America. The facts on the ground would eventually prove the existence of this colony correct, but the evidence marshaled more than a century before the discovery of L’anse-aux-Meadows in defense of the idea was underwhelming: myths, hoaxes, wishful thinking, and faith that the sagas spoke of history.
 
Despite the shaky foundations of the Sinclair myth, it suitably impressed those in power. On the strength of Richard Henry Major’s famous 1873 essay on Sinclair’s connection to the Zeno Narrative and Thomas Sinclair’s racist speech on the same subject at a Sinclair family reunion in Chicago at the time of the World’s Columbian Exposition, Britain’s prestigious Dictionary of National Biography included in 1897 the Sinclair myth wholesale, without qualification, confidently asserting that Sinclair met Nicolò Zeno in 1391 (when Zeno was actually returning to Venice from Greece), made Zeno the captain of his fleet (when he was actually in Venice and, according to twentieth century research, probably the Zeno who served as ducal counselor in Venice in 1393), and traveled to Greenland shortly thereafter, following the death of Nicolò Zeno (though in reality, Zeno did not die until c. 1402). The Dictionary simply asserts that Sinclair was Zeno’s Zichmni as though Forster’s “conjecture” has, in the interim, become incontrovertible fact.
 
The discredit for the entry goes to Thomas Finlayson Henderson, a Scottish historian best known as an expert on Robert Burns, and whose bias in favor of the greatness of the Scots—including the Sinclairs—was as evident here as anywhere.
47 Comments
E.P. Grondine
11/8/2018 09:26:00 am

"A gentleman who resided lately some time among them, assured the writer of this article, that several of their words were the same as the Irish, and that particular sentences so much resembled that tongue that he understood them by it. "

This kind of reminds one of James Adair trying to speak Hebrew to the locals in the South East.

It is strange that the Irish did not pursue the pre-Columbian contact hypotheses put forth here, but then that would require some anthropological analysis of the well Irish that is beyond me.

In any case, it appears that the Five Nations remembered encounters with armored Europeans, who they referred to as the "Stonish Giants". See David Cusick's History for this. Cusick also passed on a Tuscarora contact account

(Cusicks Sketches of the History of the Six Nations is given complete as an Appendix in "Man and Impact in the Americas".
My book was sold as a study aid at Smoking Joes on the Tuscarora Reservation in New York.)

Reply
Denise
11/8/2018 11:39:53 am

The de Lyon (1513), the de Allyon (1520), the Narvaez (1527), and de Soto (1539) expeditions all would have had armored knights (and horses and dogs) with them.

Reply
American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/8/2018 01:29:59 pm

Alternatively one could simply read Cusick's work here:

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1027&context=libraryscience

Cusick makes clear that the "stonish giants" were INDIANS. So much for listening to the native oral tradition. Harrumph.

https://www.smokinjoes.com/

Reply
E.P. Grondine
11/8/2018 06:23:01 pm

@Shit for Brains

I do not own Cusick's work.

I do own my understanding of it, and the correlation to the archaeological and geological record..

It was unavailable for many years, which is why I included it entire as an appendix.

It is clear you have never read it.

The only complaint I have ever had that amounts to anything was Mohawk frustration at my not including more of their traditions that Cusick did not include. GS willing, I'll handle that deficit in the print on demand version, which will be cheaper and better.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/8/2018 08:24:57 pm

AGAIN WITH THE POTTYMOUTH! Do you have Tourette's or are you just disagreeable?

Of course I've read Cusick's book you idiot, which is why I can point out your misrepresentation of it. It's always been available. Ever heard of a library?

"E.P. GRONDINE
10/5/2018 11:06:44 am
Since you won't get up from your computer and go out and get laid, may I suggest that as an alternative you go fuck yourself."

E.P. Grondine in a nutshell. Your goto guy for souvenir leather Bic lighter covers.

E.P. Grondine
11/9/2018 09:15:09 am

@Shit for Brains

I am very glad that Cusik's book is easily available today. The more copies the better, and the more people reading it and working on it the better.

But when I did my book, I had to work from copies printed from microfilm. I hope that my effort led in some way to the easy availabilty of those books and files you mention.

Chris and I discriminate on pricing. Pretty girl as low as $5.
Price for you $50, if we want you to have one at all.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/9/2018 10:20:11 am

"But when I did my book, I had to work from copies printed from microfilm."

Microfilmed by Diana Muir and the original destroyed no doubt.

"I hope that my effort led in some way to the easy availabilty of those books and files you mention."

Get over yourself. It was reprinted in Beauchamp 1976.

https://catalog.loc.gov/vwebv/holdingsInfo?searchId=4529&recCount=25&recPointer=4&bibId=2677733

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=the+iroquois+trail

E.P. Gr0ondine
11/9/2018 06:54:07 pm

@Shit for Brains

No, you get over yourself.

The microfilm was at the UVa library.

If I had had Beauchamp's edition the whole process would have been far easier.

I wonder how Beauchamp made out.

Oog the Cave Man
11/10/2018 11:20:27 am

E.P.GRONDINE. Disagree with you about one thing AMERICAN COOL "DISCO" DAN/ AMERIGANEGRO does not have shit for brains. Shit at least has substance, he does not. What he has is empty space where brain should be.

V
11/8/2018 11:31:27 pm

"At length they practiced rolling themselves on the sand by means their bodies were covered with hard skin these people became giants and were dreadful invaders of the country." (Cusick's History, page 20 footnote)

This does not sound like a description of European armor to me at all. I'm familiar with most forms of European armor, and there is not a single one that remotely looks like "rolled in sand," not even chainmail. And the overall tale sounds a lot more like tales associated with "odd" stone formations the world over.

Reply
Doc Rock
11/8/2018 11:55:02 pm

I think that rolling armor in a barrel of sand was a common way to clean it of rust and give it a nice shiny look. If you are far from home and don't exactly have ready access to barrels and end up kneeling and rubbing your breastplate in sand it would likely do the trick. Someone who has never seen armor who sees someone doing this from a distance and then has a couple of their arrows bounce off the guy and then tells the story to someone else, who tells the story to someone else, etc. After a couple generations of the retelling who knows what you might end up with. If in fact the original story involved armor at all.

Who knows?

E.P. Grondine
11/9/2018 09:07:44 am

@V and Doc

Thank you Doc. The accounts had changed in some 500 years of transmission.

For me, the tale of the astrolab was key.



American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/9/2018 10:04:58 am

@V:

Not to belabor the point, but Cusick specifically says the Stonish Giants were INDIANS.

So much for heeding the oral tradition. Now how about a sleeve for your lighter?

V
11/9/2018 03:26:17 pm

@Doc Rock I have literally NEVER heard of that as an effective technique for cleaning armor. Common armor care was--and still is, for reenactors and so forth--to use polishing cloths that won't scratch the surface and most importantly, won't damage the leather straps or padding. You MIGHT roll freshly-made armor in a barrel of fine grit the way you do jewelry pieces in a tumbler today, but it's not something you do as a person who WEARS the armor, only as the armorer and BEFORE it's got any leather attached to it. Not making sense as a tale of "I saw something I don't understand," because they simply wouldn't have seen it.

@American Cool "Disco" Dan Scandinavian mythology specifically states those rocks were trolls, too. British mythology says those rocks were girls, led by a devil. Or that Merlin magicked them into walking into place. Bible says it was specifically Lot's wife who looked back at the city. They're all still descriptions of "why do these rocks look like this?" My POINT, which YOU in particular seem to have missed, is that there is nothing about that tale that gives any hint of having seen something that can be specifically pointed to as nailed-down European armor. Specifics of the tail--in particular the description of the Stone Giants being lured into a pit and ambushed with an avalanche--make me think that just like the aforementioned tales, it's a tale of "Why is this weird natural bowl of non-native boulders here?" (Scientific answer most likely to be: glacial depositing.) (Scandinavian/Biblical question: "Why do these rocks/salt pillars look vaguely like people?" British questions: "Why do these rocks look vaguely like girls/how did these free-standing non-native rocks get here and put into these positions?")

Other possibilities include some type of unique armor on an enemy group of NATIVE AMERICANS, not Indians, which MIGHT either be made by impregnating cloth/leather/tree bark with sand, or RESEMBLE sand visually, or a myth of invulnerability attributed to an implacable enemy in the same way Alexander had his "Immortals."

I don't need any leather sleeves for any lighters; I don't use lighters, and I can make my own, since leathercrafting is not unique to the Americas, and your racist stereotyping is crude and unacceptable.

Doc Rock
11/9/2018 03:47:47 pm

V,

I'm just spit-balling here as an option to buying into the story that humans actually turned their skin into armor by rolling in sand. I did check around a bit and saw some reference to tumbling armor in sand to clean it. I also came across this video (the relevant part starts at around 12:00) which specifically discusses tumbling chainmail as a cleaning method. They don't specifically mention sand, but since they are speaking in terms of the present as opposed to circa-1600 folks far from home who had to work with what materials were at hand, I don't see using sand as all that big of a stretch. But, again, I'm just throwing an ide out for the sake of discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Y75iDuUZA

Doc Rock
11/9/2018 04:12:36 pm

Also, I seem to recall some accounts of Indians in the southwest wearing old Spanish armor that they had somehow gotten hold of. Other accounts have Indians creating "armor" out of leather or other materials in imitation of the Spanish. Would assume that any such thing would do a good job of stopping a stone tipped arrow from a wooden bow.

So, Indians spinning stories about initial encounters with other Indians who had somehow acquired armor, or the idea of it, from Europeans isn't a big stretch either.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/9/2018 06:20:34 pm

@ V:

"@American Cool "Disco" Dan Scandinavian mythology specifically states those rocks were trolls, too. British mythology says those rocks were girls, led by a devil. Or that Merlin magicked them into walking into place. Bible says it was specifically Lot's wife who looked back at the city. They're all still descriptions of "why do these rocks look like this?" My POINT, which YOU in particular seem to have missed, is that there is nothing about that tale that gives any hint of having seen something that can be specifically pointed to as nailed-down European armor. Specifics of the tail--in particular the description of the Stone Giants being lured into a pit and ambushed with an avalanche--make me think that just like the aforementioned tales, it's a tale of "Why is this weird natural bowl of non-native boulders here?" (Scientific answer most likely to be: glacial depositing.) (Scandinavian/Biblical question: "Why do these rocks/salt pillars look vaguely like people?" British questions: "Why do these rocks look vaguely like girls/how did these free-standing non-native rocks get here and put into these positions?")"

ALL explainable by impact events. The fast neutrons tell the tale.

"Other possibilities include some type of unique armor on an enemy group of NATIVE AMERICANS, not Indians, which MIGHT either be made by impregnating cloth/leather/tree bark with sand, or RESEMBLE sand visually, or a myth of invulnerability attributed to an implacable enemy in the same way Alexander had his 'Immortals.'"

Simply pointing out that the Injun oral tradition says they were Injuns and we have been told we must all bow before Injun oral traditions.

"I don't need any leather sleeves for any lighters; I don't use lighters, and I can make my own, since leathercrafting is not unique to the Americas, and your racist stereotyping is crude and unacceptable."

I'm not the fake Injun selling them, E.P. Grondine is. You can see him hawking (Sorry! Is that offensive?) them here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCCbP9I4nHw

Untwist thy panties, I prithee.

E.P. Grondine
11/9/2018 07:09:58 pm

@Shit for Brains -

There is the tale of the astrolab.

Now you may have trouble with fast neutrons being created in large hyper velocity impacts. But then you have shit for brains, hence your name.

And you may wish to belittle Native American memories of the impacts which killed off the mammoth. But then again, you have shit for brains.

We have been through my native ancestry before - 1/8 Shawnee. There is nothing fake about it. Again, you having shit for brains should not be my problem.

Again, get up from computer, go out, and meet some people. Find a nice guy, settle down, and get married.

Your future is out there somewhere.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/9/2018 08:31:43 pm

It's always the pottymouth with you, isn't it Chief?

"E.P. GRONDINE
10/5/2018 11:06:44 am
Since you won't get up from your computer and go out and get laid, may I suggest that as an alternative you go fuck yourself."

E.P. Grondine in a nutshell. Your goto guy for souvenir leather Bic lighter covers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCCbP9I4nHw

Dunior
11/8/2018 12:23:57 pm

Body armor has also been found in association with Jamestown in Virginia more than once. It has even been typed with pristine versions of the same armor still existent in the Tower of London. It is also likely that settlers in New England had armor as well.

Reply
Doc Rock
11/8/2018 01:18:01 pm

I would imagine that in the 16th and 17th centuries some armor would have been worn among all the colonial players in eastern North America: Spain, England, Scotland, Holland, and France.

The interesting thing is that diagnostic artifacts and sites have been found in association with even the earliest and relatively small and brief post-Columbus European excursions to NA: for example, L'Anse aux Meadows and the De Soto Entrada. But folks like the Templars managed to traipse all over North America for centuries without leaving a single dead-bang authenticated, in situ artifact behind.

Reply
Jim
11/9/2018 12:15:38 am

They were very fastidious.
Or at least so says Wolter.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
11/8/2018 06:42:54 pm

Look folks, I am familiar with the DeSoto Entrada, which he did well after Columbus. Parts of his Entrada are covered in my guide to sites along the Natchez Trace.

The Spaniards are very different than the Stonish Giants of Cusick's History. Suffice it to point out DeSotot never made it that far north, nor at the times Cusick determined for the Stonish Giants.

By the way, kahastenes was one native name for comets.

@Doc - It is really bizarre how evidence for contact is used to build imaginary European empires in the Americas.

It is also bizarre how evidence of X mt DNA is treated, and how any evidence of advanced Native American peoples is treated.

And finally it is bizarre how the archaeological community never sorted through the eastern Native American "myths", and this explains a lot of the shit being sold today.

But enough of my wonderfulness. I am tired, and Hollywood, Tuscany, and Crete beckon. At least they produce some really good archaeologists in Europe.

Reply
Doc Rock
11/8/2018 07:56:49 pm

By the time of the early colonial era, the Iroquois Confederacy's sphere of influence extended from the Atlantic Coast to the Mississippi Valley, Canada, and the South. So, they certainly could have had contact with, or knowledge of, the Desoto Entrada or other early Spanish incursions into the southeastern US (present day US to avoid confusing the kiddie table). Also, the Five Nations ended up as the Six Nations when they added the Tuscarora Tribe from the SOUTHEASTERN US.


Then there was the circa 1610 war with the French under Champlain.


Then there was Iroquois early 17th century interaction with the English and Dutch.


Lot's of opportunities to experience, or hear about, experiences with people wearing armor and having all sorts of foreign goodies.


Not something you want to hear, but Native American oral traditions, like all other such traditions, aren't always all that reliable in terms of time frame. That's why you have some oral traditions that are perceived to have circulated for millenia that turn out to be Native adoptions of biblical stories told by Christian missionaries.


I remember June Helm talking about encountering a story told by a Dene tribal elder that she initially thought was some undiscovered ancient myth. Turned out that it was his spin on a Time Magazine article from a few months previously.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
11/9/2018 09:57:59 am

@Doc

"That's why you have some oral traditions that are perceived to have circulated for millenia that turn out to be Native adoptions of biblical stories told by Christian missionaries."

You also have perception problems by recorders, such as Christians mistaking Holocene Start Impact Event traditions or impact tsunami traditions for "Noah's Flood".

Cusik's temporal placement was very good, but was relative and had to be corrected by only a couple of hundred years.
Columbus's arrival was not the arrival of Europeans at their lands.

Cusik was working from 50 year wampum belts for the period after the formation of the Longhouse confederacy.

Cusik's description of "Hopewell" (Shawnee and Cherokee ancestral) societies was very good, as well as his date for the "Iroquoian intrusion". (When I did my book, dates given for this varied by several hundred years. The archaeological dating is generally better now.)

What you always want to do is find the earliest reliably recorded history. And then you have to check the native history against the archaeological and geological records.

I think you will enjoy reading "Man and Impact in the Americas". It is always available to read for free via inter library loan.

Doc Rock
11/9/2018 11:21:47 am

Archaeologists working backwards from recorded history, including oral history (which I think that we can now agree is not always to be taken as gospel), has been around since before either of us was born. It's called the direct-historical approach. Then there is the somewhat related method of ethnoarchaeology which has been around for over a century.

The problem with the direct historical approach, as well as with ethnoarchaeology, is that in most instances in the US you often don't have continuity in the area under consideration. Hard to work backward into the archaeological record from oral tradition when the carriers of that tradition are all dead or their descendants only speak English and know much more about Star Wars and playing World of Warcraft than traditional religious ideology or material culture.

E.P. Grondine
11/9/2018 07:29:42 pm

@Doc -

My goal is going into this at all was to find memories of asteroid and comet impact events. "Man and Impact in the Americas" was simply a trial run for "Man and Impact in the Ancient Near East" and "Man and Impact in Europe". I was supposed to be in Tuscany several years ago. Oh well.

Yes, it is very hard, but the training for field archaeologists here is nearly non-existent. As a result of this they have absolutely no apparat for working with such materials as did survive.

But fundamentally, in my view what you are dealing with here in the east is cultural genocide following on the theft of the lands. There is little interest in those who first owned those lands, and for most people they are a mystery.

The imaginary European empires Jason riles against are the
end result.

Doc Rock
11/10/2018 11:28:02 am

E.P.

To the contrary, training and work in stuff like ethnoarchaeology is alive and well. See review essay below.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303444778_Reflections_on_contemporary_ethnoarchaeology

E.P. Grondine
11/10/2018 01:10:15 pm

@Doc -

Pulling out examples from meso armerica or south america is not valid here. They have no bearing on the problem, any more than the excellent work done elsewhere in the world, including Europe.

The problem is with North American archaeologists, particularly here in the US (and not in Canada). While there are excellent archaeologists working here in the US, they are far too rare in my experience.

While I could moan on for pages, it would serve little purpose. All I can do is to pass on the Native Histories, and hope that future scholars may take an interest. Far too much work, with no to too small financing. Fifteen years of it. I am really looking forward to a vacation.

To end this discussion on a positive note, I am very heartened by the Cherokee archaeologists coming out of UTenn Knoxville.

Doc Rock
11/10/2018 01:49:18 pm

Actually, it's a review essay that situates ethnoarchaeology in a global context, including the US. No shortage of more geographically focused published studies on the topic of ethnoarchaeology. I was just providing it as one of the most recent in-depth published discussions of the topic that has decent bibliography of recent research.

Futhermore, many of those working in Latin America were trained in the US. Furthermore, no shortage of people initially trained to do work in Meso-America, etc. who end up doing work in the U.S. Furthermore, no shortage of people trained to do work in the US who end up working in Meso-America. Ditto for Europe vs. Western Hemisphere.

I once spent a few years working off and on for two guys who had both initially been trained as Mayanists but by the tie I met them were lower Mississippi Valley specialists.

So its not like a discussion of archaeology in one region is irrelevant to others.

Not to be patronizing but you really should be doing a lot more reading and a lot less trying to argue with people like me if you want to be taken seriously.

Give that a try for a couple months and then we can revisit this, OK.


American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/10/2018 03:15:45 pm

"While I could moan on for pages, it would serve little purpose."

But you DO "moan on for pages" and you ARE in that chair Blanche.

You don't go around to universities and check on archaeologists because you know nothing about the field and no one listens to you.

Before you get started, "But I write!" is the plaint of the large breasted girl.

Your new fake Injun name is "Chief Little Purpose".

Denise
11/10/2018 09:09:44 pm

@E.P. I am a little confused about your posts regarding archaeologists. You do realize that Archaeology is a sub field of physical anthropology, which is also a sub field of anthropology. They are the forensic end dealing with actual artifacts, ecofacts, features, etc. It's the cultural anthropology side that deals with ethnography or oral he stories and such. These folks are not archaeologists.

So either you area moaning that archaeologists aren't doing a job there aren't supplies to do, or you area upset that the different branches if anthropology don't collaborate like they should.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/11/2018 09:40:36 am

@Denise: Chief Little Purpose will be happy to sell you a leather sleeve for your Bic lighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCCbP9I4nHw

Ask to see his collection of Indian giant skeletons! (hint: they don't exist)

Doc Rock
11/11/2018 11:06:36 am

Denise,

Archaeology, Linguistic Anthropology, Physical/biological Anthropology, and Cultural Anthropology are the four subfields of Anthropology.

What was being discussed is ethnoarchaeology which is a combination of archaeology and cultural anthropology. It can involve collecting data from contemporary societies to help interpret archaeological materials. For example, studying contemporary potters and pottery traditions in an area to help understand ceramic materials recovered in that same area.

American Cool "disco" Dan
11/11/2018 01:19:18 pm

What about Gender Archaeology, Reparations Archaeology, Giant Archaeology, Bic Lighter Sleeve Archaeology and Fast Neutron Archaeology?

E.P. Grondine
11/12/2018 10:47:34 pm

@Doc -

Let me be real specific here. THE problem is with Native American national histories. I have not encountered any corpus more poorly handled, period.

While there is no end to the further reading I could do, my main problem is getting what I have already gathered to those interested.

And this has been going on for some 13 years now. As I mentioned earlier, I deserve a vacation.

Doc Rock
11/13/2018 10:18:58 am

Not quite sure what you mean by National Histories. But would imagine that a journal like Ethnohistory is pretty much in that ballpark. Then there is the work of actual Native American scholars like Duthu.

But I suspect that I am now about to hear what a crappy journal Ethnohistory is, as well as all the other journals that publish a lot of stuff on Native Americans, so will call it quits here.

Again, more reading by you, less talking and writing. Try it for a couple months and you will be amazed at how much information is out there that you have missed. To quote the great Sol Rosenberg, it will put a whole new paint job on things.

Aerican Cool "Disco" Dan
11/13/2018 05:35:00 pm

Cap'n, you needs to show some respects! Chief has 1/8 fake Injun blood. You need to read his book, Man and Impact in My Victims! If you don't know the history of the Plungers and Kissinger you don't know jack, Kerouac. Fast neutrons tell the tale.

Chief, who speaks no Injun languages, is THE expert on all things Injun. Like you he also needs to do a check-in on Halloween.

Jim
11/8/2018 08:59:49 pm

" I am tired, and Hollywood, Tuscany, and Crete beckon."

So I take it the go fund me campaign to fix your broken down car was successful ?

Reply
American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/8/2018 10:47:56 pm

Where's the Manson Family when you need them?

E.P. Grondine
11/9/2018 09:36:04 am

@Jim -

Broken down car's scrap value covered price of old Toyota.

After that, support of native community via powwow sales.

I have not tried a Go Fund Me campaign yet. We have not had a clearing house bbs for impact research since 2005, and that would be very useful. I have long since lost contact with the India Indian and African researchers. We face a real problem as shown by the "recent" impacts.

The Archaeological Conservancy did a good job securing the Blockhouse 8 (Prophetstown Ohio) site via public support.

My next effort will be print on demand versions of all of my writings, including the very popular site guides. If I can arrange to give these away for free in advertiser supported editions, it would be a very good thing.

Better, cheaper, easier to get are my goals for Native History.


PIERRE PLANTARD FACTS
11/9/2018 12:53:45 am

Pierre Plantard appropriated the surname "de Saint-Clair" in 1973 and it was his surname when he died - it is found on his Death Certificate that has been published

Pierre Plantard repudiated and distanced himself from the Jesus Bloodline claims in 1982 on the Jacques Pradel French radio show.

Reply
THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER
11/9/2018 01:04:34 am

Sloppy, needs focusing on better explanation

The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/the-templars-the-holy-grail--henry-sinclair.html

Reply
American Cool "Disco" Dan
11/9/2018 11:02:46 am

IIRC in HBHG itself he claimed to be no longer Grandmaster of the Prieure de Sion.

Nope, IDRC. It was Baigent, Michael; Leigh, Richard; Lincoln, Henry (1987). The Messianic Legacy

Reply
QUOTING PIERRE PLANTARD FROM 1982
11/9/2018 03:02:40 pm

Quoting Pierre Plantard from 1982:

“ ‘I admit’, he [Plantard] says, ‘that ‘The Holy Blood and Holy Grail’ is a good book, but one must say that there is a part that owes more to fiction than to fact, especially in the part that deals with the lineage of Jesus. How can you prove a lineage of four centuries from Jesus to the Merovingians? I have never put myself forward as a descendant of Jesus Christ’”

THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER
11/11/2018 07:41:55 am

That's right, Thomas Plantard was the Grand Master
But none of this was conveyed by the authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail

Jens
8/8/2020 09:25:15 am

Friesland is a county in holland or something like that. Once its own kingdom. The holy roman emperor was at one point called sigismund . I think this is alot more appealing than the Sinclair story. Although i think fantasy is a more likely explanation altogether.

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        • Volume 18 Archive
        • Volume 19 Archive
        • Volume 20 Archive
      • Volumes 21-30 Archive >
        • Volume 21 Archive
        • Volume 22 Archive
    • Television Reviews >
      • Ancient Aliens Reviews
      • In Search of Aliens Reviews
      • America Unearthed
      • Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar
      • Search for the Lost Giants
      • Forbidden History Reviews
      • Expedition Unknown Reviews
      • Legends of the Lost
      • Unexplained + Unexplored
      • Rob Riggle: Global Investigator
    • Book Reviews
    • Galleries >
      • Bad Archaeology
      • Ancient Civilizations >
        • Ancient Egypt
        • Ancient Greece
        • Ancient Near East
        • Ancient Americas
      • Supernatural History
      • Book Image Galleries
    • Videos
    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
      • Secret History of Ancient Astronauts
      • Of Atlantis and Aliens
      • Aliens and Ancient Texts
      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
        • Robert Temple
        • Giorgio Tsoukalos
        • David Childress
      • Blunders in the Sky
      • The Case of the False Quotes
      • Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud
      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
      • Native American Discovery of Europe
      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
      • Lovecraft in Bergier
      • Lovecraft and Scientology
    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
      • Aliens and Anal Probes
      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
    • The Antediluvian Pyramid Myth
    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Atrahasis Epic
          • Epic of Gilgamesh
          • Kutha Creation Legend
          • Babylonian Creation Myth
          • Descent of Ishtar
          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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