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Holy Bloodline Believers Claim Their Beliefs Shouldn't Be Lumped in with "Extremely Fringe Stuff"

6/5/2016

25 Comments

 
Yesterday Scott Wolter challenged critics to provide evidence regarding the Kensington Rune Stone that would meet the standard of admissibility for a court of law. That’s a rather silly an arbitrary standard for a scientific claim, given that evidence in law courts isn’t meant to establish the truth, particularly evidence admitted by the defense, which need not do more than establish reasonable doubt. Courts are also not always right, either. Courts have determined that evidence supported racial segregation and eugenics, among other things. Besides, Wolter himself failed to provide enough legal evidence to convince a judge when he was sued in 1988 and failed to prove he could distinguish a valuable Lake Superior agate from a worthless Brazilian agate.
But the larger problem remains: Even if we accept the “legal” standard for the Rune Stone, would that not disqualify all of Wolter’s other claims, since nothing about the Holy Bloodline conspiracy would rise to the standard of hearsay, let alone admissible evidence? (Even the lawyer Wolter quotes as a supporter of the authenticity of the Rune Stone denies in the full text of his Facebook posting that the secret codes Wolter alleges to have found actually exist.)
 
Of course Wolter has a different standard for proof for the Templar-Bloodline claim, because consistency is not among his virtues:
Truth is, historians have little if any documentation to work with about the activities of the pre-Columbian Templars in North America because they conducted in utmost secrecy. That’s why we need to pay especially close attention to symbolism, allegory and code to make headway. It was their preferred mode of communication.
Speaking of the Holy Bloodline conspiracy, it seems that I have gotten into a bit of trouble with goddess believers over that one. The complaint comes from supporters of Mary Starbird.
 
I’ve never heard of Margaret Starbird, but from what I learned, she is a New Age writer who specializes in the “sacred union” of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. She runs a goddess-themed cult centered on “the truth behind the fiction encountered in The Da Vinci Code.” Starbird claims that Dan Brown used her work in The Da Vinci Code. Starbird reports that the fringe belief in this marriage, which she seems to have encountered through Holy Blood, Holy Grail, shook her Catholic faith and forced her into years of research that led her to believe in the sacred union and a hidden goddess tradition in Christianity. To share her deep spiritual transformation, she founded a limited liability corporation through which she accepts cash payments for information about this sacred and empowering “truth.” She is a regular on the New Age lecture circuit, where she also accepts cash payments for her spiritual revelations.
 
Don’t knock it until you’ve tried it: I just read about a televangelist with regular-flavor Jesus beliefs who was accused of using church donations to fund a $50 million private jet and $100,000 for a separate home just for his dogs.
 
Starbird has made some questionable claims over the years, from her linkage of Mary Magdalene to the 9/11 attacks in 2001 to her assertion that the unicorn is really a symbol of Jesus’ omnipotent penis striving to fertilize Mary Magdalene.
 
I mention this because the followers of Stabird have criticized me for not falling in line behind their goddess-centric belief in a Jesus-Magdalene coupling. One of the believers complains that I do not correctly understand the faith of the Cathars because I reference Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay in the Historia Albigensis 10-11. She criticizes 
… his rather bizarre views on the Cathars, based upon the writing of their enemy, a Roman Catholic and further based upon his own translation of the Latin text. When challenged, in the comment section, about his authority to translate the difficult Latin, his response was that he had been ‘reading Latin since he was a teenager’. There is no mention of studying the language at a University level.
The Latin of this passage isn’t really that difficult, but I have never asked anyone to take my translations at face value. But in this case, you certainly don’t have to: Peter’s text has been translated many times, in both older sources and in a modern critical edition. The trouble, of course, is that there is very little surviving from the Cathars themselves, and most of what we know (or what “esoteric” Christians think they know) about them comes from opponents’ accounts.
 
In response to this, another “esoteric” Christian calling herself Bishop Katia replied that it was incorrect for skeptics like me to lump their beliefs in with other fringe claims:
It’s okay, we are used to being fringe in this area. It doesn’t mean we believe in many of the less logical myths about Judeo-Christianity such as it originated in Atlantis, or that the Holy Family and half the tribes of Israel were really white non-semitic British people. Archaeology and DNA studies show without exception that the 12 tribes and Jesus’ family were all middle eastern.
 
Did Joseph of Arimethea travel to Britain? — quite possible considering what was going on in Britain during the reigns of Tiberius and later Claudius.
 
Just my opinions of course, but I see why scholars look askance at all fringe beliefs when they lump us believers in a male-and-female Godhead in with the extremely fringe stuff such as: UFO astronauts with oxygen tanks and all, came to earth and seeded it.
Notice the way Katia has elided two different claims to make them seem equally plausible: Belief in a male and female godhead is not a historical claim, but a question of faith. Belief in the marriage of Jesus and Mary Magdalene and the subsequent production of a line of royal babies is a historical claim. A faith-based belief in the former does not imply reality-based evidence for the latter. (For example: One could easily believe in El and Asherah, or Baal and Astarte, ruling the heavens.) 
25 Comments
Time Machine
6/5/2016 09:58:29 am

Margaret Starbird set out to prove The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail wrong. She concluded it was historically correct.

Guess what, some people set out to prove The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail to be correct, only to find out it was a load of garbage.

Yes, Margaret Starbird is first and foremost a New Ager who hangs her beliefs on the coathanger of the Jesus Bloodline. You only have to read her books to see that.

Her "proof" that Jesus Christ married Mary Magdalene lies in the sacred marriage or Hieros Gamos.

She let slip once that she was appalled by sexual prudery. I think most of us are appalled by that - but that does not mean we have to take the Jesus Bloodline seriously because of that.

Reply
Time Machine
6/5/2016 10:04:56 am

To the Gnostics, the Bridal Chamber and the unification of male and female implied the production of the Androgyne and not sexual reproduction. Here lies a clue to the real Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene relationship.

Reply
Clete
6/5/2016 02:27:01 pm

I tend to believe that Jesus's Father, Joseph probably had arranged a marriage with someone by the time Jesus reached the age of twelve or thirteen. I understand that it was one of the duties of a orthodox Jewish father to arrange such things in order to protect the bloodline and the inheritance. However, I don't believe the marriage was ever consummated. As such, the "Holy Bloodline" is entirely fictional, a product of later writers.

Reply
Time Machine
6/5/2016 04:27:36 pm

>>marriage was ever consummated<<

There are theologians who argue that Jesus Christ was a homosexual (Robert Goss). And a stage play was shown showing Jesus Christ and his disciples as a gang of gays (Terrence McNally).

Gee, the person never existed in the first place.

Reply
Time Machine
6/5/2016 04:38:51 pm

There was of course also Professor Morton Smith who argued that Jesus Christ was gay (Smith was gay, what a coincidence).

Clete
6/6/2016 01:11:51 am

Oops, wrong word, should have been never. How in the world did you ever become such a god-damn know-it-all?

Time Machine
6/6/2016 01:55:58 am

>>How in the world did you ever become such a god-damn know-it-all?<<

By ignoring the "experts".

Clete
6/6/2016 01:23:51 pm

You, dear sir, I suspect have had a very poor and disappointing life. I suspect you are friendless, unmarried, living in a basement somewhere with only yourself as company. In many ways, I feel sorry for you.

Time Machine
6/6/2016 02:37:37 pm

Author Fred Gettings killed himself when he was in his 70s when his wife left him for another man. She protected him from the world during their marriage.

That crap won't happen to me.

Time Machine
6/6/2016 02:48:15 pm

I would not call my life "disappointing" !!

Gee, whole generations of people throughout history, including the present day, have and are living in ignorance about certain matters.

I am ahead of all mainstream Biblical scholars and atheists, sceptics, humanists and secularists.




Dora
6/14/2016 07:39:12 am

He might do i t, at any age, or not. Not much inheritance to protect in a family of poor carpenter, they didn't have a land ownership. And also a male could for ex. like some woman, and ask his father to arrange it, there were options as you see. And also the pressure for Jewish males to get married became strong after II c., was not as strong during Jesus' times.

Reply
Only Me
6/5/2016 03:28:48 pm

Yes, such beliefs *should* be lumped in with other fringe claims. Rather than leave such beliefs in the realm of faith, to be accepted or rejected by the individual, there is also the claim of a bloodline. What they continue to ignore, is the lack of any evidence that would support such a claim. The same can be said of the alleged "Goddess worship" within Christianity.

Reply
Cesar
6/5/2016 04:10:38 pm

A good overview of the myths about Mary Magdalene was recently published by Massimo Polidoro in Skeptical Inquirer - May / June 2016.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/in_search_of_mary_magdalene

Reply
Time Machine
6/5/2016 04:34:10 pm

Unfortunate that Polidoro could not provide English language references and footnotes....

Reply
David Bradbury
6/6/2016 03:39:20 am

Think yourself lucky his article is available in Englsh at all. Most of the world does not have English as a first language.

Time Machine
6/6/2016 09:41:58 am

The subject matter is covered in academic English Language books. Nobody has traced the first known example of the depiction of the Ascension of the Virgin Mary or if there is a parallel apocryphal Catholic text that the artwork is based upon. All that exists is the Catholic tradition. I researched.


Time Machine
6/6/2016 09:46:57 am

Polidoro implied in his article that the artistic depiction of the Ascension of the Virgin Mary was based on Apocrypha but no English experts are aware of this.

CJ
6/5/2016 04:45:16 pm

I am NOT A LAWYER...but I think what they're (obliquely) referring to is are these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daubert_standard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frye_standard

Reply
Time Machine
6/5/2016 05:49:22 pm

I note the pervading references to "evidence" being formed by "opinion".

Reply
Joe Scales link
6/6/2016 11:18:14 am

David "O. N." Johnson's thoughts provoking Wolter's blog topic can be found here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/287262734058/permalink/10154384196469059/

What Wolter left out of his blog discussion was where Mr. Johnson takes a swing at Harold (presumably Edwards) noting he was a former employee of Wolter's company writing that "... in a legal context, Harold’s comments would be assumed as sour grapes and would lack the credibility necessary to convince a finder of fact." That is actually quite a ridiculous statement coming from an attorney. Whether or not a witness has a gripe against a party can be taken into account when weighing credibility, but it will not preclude their testimony nor render it wholly unconvincing. Just consider if Mr. Johnson's take on this were to be a true maxim. Then you would never have the notion of whistle-blowers. Perhaps Mr. Johnson is unaware of such a concept.

Mr. Johnson then goes on to build a strawman out of Harold, addressing only a portion of his posted criticism of Wolter's methodology in regard to CO2. A response to that however, is best left to Harold should he review it himself.

As for the rest of Wolter's blog, where in the comments he again insists that his KRS work was "peer reviewed", it may be a record breaking posting of fallacy and misinformation even for him, that plays better at propaganda than actual discourse. Wolter has admitted previously that he has never testified as an expert witness in court in regard to his "archaeopetography" take on alleged antiquities. And with either the Daubert or Frye standard referred to above, he never will.

Reply
Harold Edwards
6/6/2016 12:38:59 pm

Here is a partial reply to Mr. Johnson: Where does Mr. Wolter get his data? Let him cite his sources from the technical literature if he has any. Does he make up all his own science? If he made measurements, then what are they? How did he derive them? What was his protocol? Where are his field notes? When were they written? Did he do a pH test on present day Runestone Hill? This is a park, a groomed landscape and not the original soil. It has been so for some years. Did he take that into account? Mr. Wolter has no evidence. He is making it up out of whole cloth! This is all irrelevant anyway. The artifact was found under a quaking aspen (Populus tremuloides Michx.). There is none there today. It appears to be grass. The conditions are completely different.

The equilibrium pH of calcite in the Kensington area is about 8.3. (This is temperature dependent. Does Mr. Wolter know that?) Below that pH–including Mr. Wolters 7–calcite will dissolve. The lower from 8.3, the more acidic, the faster the calcite dissolves. Above a pH of about 8.3 calcite precipitates. Therefore the runes would be showing scale on their surfaces. None of this is there. Here is the soil survey for Douglas County which discusses the soils at the Ohman farm and the pH’s at various depths: DeMarteleare, Donald E. (1975) Soil Survey of Douglas County, U.S. Department of Agriculture, 112 pages. Newer surveys are online. They are essentially the same. You can also download GIS data. From this I have made my own map. Where is Mr. Wolter’s map?

Rainwater is slightly acidic with a pH of about 5.6. This is sufficient to dissolve calcite over time. One study found that the soils at an aspen site have a pH of 5.38 for the humus–ground litter, 5.40 for the interval 0-2 inches, 5.35 from 2-10 inches, and 5.42 from 10-36 inches. Stoeckeler, p. 23 Stoeckeler, Joseph Henry (1960), Soil Factors Affecting the Growth of Quaking Aspen Forests in the Lake States. Technical Bulletin, Minnesota Agriculture Experiment Station. 46 pages. The Kensington Rune Stone is about 5.5" thick and “was found, its inscribed side was down, and about six inches of soil covered it”--page 221. Minnesota Historical Society Museum Committee, (1915) “The Kensington Rune Stone Preliminary Report,” in Minnesota Historical Collections, Minnesota Historical Society, vol 15, St. Paul, pp. 221-286.

Stoeckeler’s values are more acidic than rainwater. What is and where is Mr. Wolter's data?

Reply
Harold Edwards
6/6/2016 12:54:54 pm

Let me give Mr. Johnson and all of you another paper you can review. It is on the physical chemistry of calcite dissolution. The solubility values in it were experimentally determined. It also gives some values at very high levels of CO2 which would be found in the soils under an aspen tree. Frear, G.L. and John Johnston (1929), “The Solubility of Calcium Carbonate (Calcite) in Certain Aqueous Solutions at 25 degrees,” Journal of the American Chemical Society, vol. 51, pp. 2082-2093

Modern work is based on the paper by Plummer, L.Niel and Eurybiades Busenberg (1982), “The solubilities of calcite, aragonite and vaterite in CO2-H2O solutions between 0 and 90°C, and an evaluation of the aqueous model for the system CaCO3-CO2-H2O,” Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta, vol. 46, pp. 1011-1040. This reconciles earlier experimental data and provides a computational framework for calculating calcite solubilities.

Many modern geologists, including myself, use the computer program PHREEQC. You can download a windows version at the USGS website. Here is the reference for it: Parkhurst, D. L. and C.A.J. Appelo (2013), Description of Input and Examples for PHREEQC Version 3 – A Computer Program for Speciation, Batch-Reaction, One-Dimensional Transport, and Inverse Geochemical Calculations, US Geological Survey, Denver, 497 pages.

Here is a paper the uses computations from Plummer and Busenberg to calculate calcite solubilities back to 1800: Bogen, Robert A.J. et al (2009), “Changes in Rainwater pH Associated with Increasing Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide after the Industrial Revolution,” Water Air Soil Pollution, vol 196, pp. 263–271.

Here is where you can get data back to 1362: Etheridge, D.M., et al. (2010), “Law Dome Ice Core 2000-Year CO2, CH4, and N2O Data,” IGBP PAGES/World Data Center for Paleoclimatology Data Contribution Series # 2010-070. NOAA/NCDC Paleoclimatology Program, Boulder CO, USA. You will have to get the data online.

I use PHREEQC to compute calcite solubilities for a given temperature and level of CO2. I also can show the calculated values I get are close to the experimental values in Frear and Johnston.

I have nothing to hide. Just ask.

Reply
Harold Edwards
6/6/2016 01:47:12 pm

The geology of Winchell is from 1910 and obsolete. Why cling to it? The geologist Abraham Gottlob Werner (1749 - 1817) made many contributions to geology and mineralogy. He is best known for his theory that basalt is a sedimentary rock that precipitates from sea water. He was dead wrong. Go to Hawaii and watch if form directly from molten lava at Kilauea. Werner’s geology is obsolete. Basalt is an igneous rock. We do not cling to obsolete geology. That is an inappropriate use of authority and has no place in science.

Newton Horace Winchell was on of the great geologist of the late 19th Century. He taught geology and botany and was first chairman of the geology department at the University of Minnesota. He was also the head of the Minnesota Geological Survey. Under him the survey was one of the best in the nation. After he retired he became the archaeologist at the Minnesota Historical Society. Hence his involvement with the Kensington Rune Stone. You can read about his career here: Schwartz, George M. and Tibor Zoltai (1972), “General History of the Department,” in Schwartz, George M. editor (1972), A Century of Geology 1872-1972 at the University of Minnesota, University of Minnesota Geology Department, Minneapolis, 175 pages. And here: Schwartz, George M. (1964), History of the Minnesota Geological Survey, SP-1 Special Publication Series, 39 pages.

I am an alumnus of the geology department at the University of Minnesota. Winchell in effect is intellectually my great grandfather. His geology is obsolete. He would not take offense at that. He would be please that we have made so much progress in the last 100 years. The finest compliment that can be given to a teacher is that his students have surpassed him.

The Kensington Rune Stone has two lithologies–rock types–a calcite layer and a sandstone, graywacke. Here is what Winchell wrote about the weathering of the calcite layer: ”Marble slabs in graveyards in New England are more deeply disintegrated than this calcite, when they stand above the surface of the ground. . . In short, there is no possible natural way to preserve that calcite scale from general disintegration for 548 years except to bury it beneath the surface. If it were not thus buried and still is intact, it must have been exposed and the inscription must have been made less than a hundred years ago, and probably less than thirty years ago.” This is on pages 235 to 236. Minnesota Historical Society Museum Committee, (1915) “The Kensington Rune Stone Preliminary Report,” in Minnesota Historical Collections, Minnesota Historical Society, vol 15, St. Paul, pp. 221-286.

In other words Winchell was writing that the calcite layer was protected from weathering by burial of more than 436 years. Elsewhere in this report Winchell on pages 236 to 237 decided that the graywacke had weathered for about 500 years. This is a contradiction. If burial for 436 years protected the calcite layer from weathering it had to do likewise for the grayacke and thus the graywacke cannot be 500 years old. If the graywacke weathered for 500 years, then the calcite layer must have been exposed for 500 years and thus be gone! Unfortunately Winchell died in 1915 and cannot give us an explanation of what was on his mind. Maybe Mr. Wolter can channel his ghost and find out.

Reply
Harold Edwards
6/6/2016 02:47:41 pm

I might add that Winchell does not explain exactly how he comes to his estimation of the age of the graywacke. He appears to use the color or shade of the surface or patina. However, Winchell was probably not aware of the so-called Weber-Fechner Law which crudely approximates the human eye's perception of shade as logarithmic, so each step in a sequence is an order of magnitude greater than the step before it. If a shade of gray or a color appears to be twice as dark, it in effect is 10 times as dark. If it appears three times as dark, it in effect is 100 times as dark and so forth.

If we take Winchell's estimation from page 236 of his report: Minnesota Historical Society Museum Committee, (1915) “The Kensington Rune Stone Preliminary Report,” in Minnesota Historical Collections, Minnesota Historical Society, vol 15, St. Paul, pp. 221-286. We get:

(1) (2) (3) (4) (5)
0 500 500 1,000 8,000

All we know is that, by the law of superposition, stage (3) is older than stage (2), i.e., the side had to be split from some other rock body before its inscription was carved into it. We do not know how much older. We also believe today that (5), the end of the last glacial period was about 11,000 years ago. Matsch, p. 560. Matsch, Charles, L. (1972), “Quaternary Geology Southwestern Minnesota,” in Sims, P.K. and G.B. Morey, editors, Geology of Minnesota, A Centennial Volume, Minnesota Geological Survey, pp. 548-560. This fixes that end point. By using orders of magnitude suggested by Weber-Fechner and working backwards, we therefore get:

(1) (2) (3) (4) (5)
0-1 11 110 1,100 11,000

The 11 years in (2) can easily be explained by the weathering of the artifact between 1899 and 1907. Of course this is a crude estimate, and most of the uncertainty is between (2) and (3) since they are penecontemporaneous (almost at the same time). At any rate (3) is much less than the 500 years Winchell guessed at. A good review of the problems with Winchell’s patina dating can be found in Michlovic, Michael G. (2010), “Geology and the Age of the Kensington Inscription,” The Minnesota Archaeologist, vol 68, pp. 139-160. You can download a copy online.

Reply
Man in Alexandria
6/6/2016 12:08:16 pm

LOL! A court with Scott as lawyer, Judge, and jury. LOL! Those with new information proving a modern origin of the KRS do not need Scott to admit to his scientific mistakes or for him to agree with their information. He is irrelevant.

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