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I'm Not Sure What We Should Do about Confederate Statues

8/16/2017

105 Comments

 
​So… at a news conference yesterday the president of the United States defended the Confederacy and said that “very fine people” attended the Charlottesville pro-white rally last weekend, earning praise from David Duke and other racist leaders. Media images showed crowds of torch-wielding Neo-Nazis shouting Nazi slogans (“blood and soil”) and anti-Semitic rants (“Jews will not replace us”), but Trump told us to “believe me” that the majority of attendees were there solely to express support for a statue of Robert E. Lee that was scheduled for removal. “There are two sides to a story,” Trump said, implying that the media narrative about white supremacy was liberal propaganda. 
​It’s hard to find anything else to talk about when Trump essentially hijacks everything to fume over his petty hatreds and to wallow in his own ignorance. At the news conference, Trump conflated the Confederacy—a declared enemy of the United States—with the American Revolution, and he argued that we should not remove statues of Confederate leaders from the public square.
 
Trump’s statements are so absurd in the face of facts that it left me speechless. I can’t begin to address the Nazi material, but I was interested in Trump’s historical view, which is entirely lacking in understanding and nuance but nonetheless raised an interesting question about history: When should a monument be altered or removed? This question has a close echo to the issue of whether H. P. Lovecraft’s image would remain on the World Fantasy Award, an issue that led to a similar conflict between traditionalists and progressives.
 
I must admit that my own feelings on the question of monuments are somewhat conflicted. On the one hand, there are real problems with having the state endorse intolerable ideologies by preserving and maintaining monuments to those who embraced and endorsed them. On the other hand, many of these monuments are more than a century old, and they are now themselves historic structures and historic artworks. Destroying them is to destroy a part of history, albeit not a part I would want to celebrate. The recent ones added in middle twentieth century in a fit of racist pique are new enough that their destruction is no loss.
 
Another thing that troubles me is judging the past by the standards of the present. Some college students, for example, called for the removal of a statue of Teddy Roosevelt from the American Museum of Natural History last year because he held eugenicist and racist views, and there are efforts to remove statues of Columbus and dozens of Victorian politicians. The problem is that no person is perfect, and no person is so uniformly excellent that his or her views will not run afoul of someone at some time. If we make it a habit of destroying monuments every four years when the political winds change, and every time a new issue rises to the fore of public discourse, it will be no long time before there are no monuments left. However, when the right tries to make this argument, they quickly reveal the underlying motives that make preserving these statues so disturbing. I do not agree with the National Review, which tried to defend Trump yesterday with a column arguing that jihadis and the “anti-fascist left” would happily blow up the Washington Monument in the name of ideology. Kyle Smith argued, inconsistently, that Confederate statues should stay because they are unimportant and ignored by all but a few and therefore are more important as history. But the underlying theme of his piece is that racist whites like them, and we shouldn’t upset them because of their historic role in American life.
 
But how much sin must we tolerate in those we place on display as implicit models of behavior? I don’t think there is a good answer here. The Confederate monuments exist as markers of anti-federal sentiment and racism, and that was true when they went up and remains true as they come down. To that end, they form almost a special case because they are monuments of spite, erected by the losers in a war in order to antagonize the victors and racial minorities, something that victors have rarely permitted, historically. Most times, tearing down statues occurs when a former power is destroyed and it monuments are trashed to symbolically destroy the regime. Pharaohs smashed the statues of disgraced kings; the Romans pronounced a damnatio memoriae on failed emperors; post-Soviet states beheaded bronze sculptures of Lenin. The Allies did something similar when they blew up Nazi symbols, and America thought dismantling Saddam Hussein’s statue would reenact this ritual of victory. But I wonder how old the symbols of a failed regime must be before they pass from potent ideological threats to historical relics. ISIS, for example, destroys ancient statues because they claim that they represent pagan faiths and threats to Islam, and the world condemns those actions because no one else sees ancient statues as a current ideological threat. I guess the question is when a statue loses its political power and becomes a work of art, largely devoid of contemporary impact and unmoored from its context.
 
As you can tell, I don’t have a good answer for this. I think back to an old Greek Revival mansion I knew as a child. It was old enough that it had slave quarters from the time when New York still had slaves. The main house was turned into a museum, but the slave quarters were not included. One of the two slave houses became an antique shop (more or less a gift shop for the museum), and the other was empty. It was a fun place to play as a kid when my father would take me out there—he was (and is) an antique dealer. But I can see now that this was the wrong solution. I believe that today the two buildings house an exhibit on slavery at the mansion, which is a better solution. Perhaps there is a creative way to repurpose these monuments to alter their context. I don’t know. I’m pretty sure that Kyle Smith’s solution is the wrong one: He said we should have separate but equal statues to racists and minorities standing near to one another, but segregated. It strikes me that going from a white supremacist statue policy to a Jim Crow statue policy is not exactly progress.
 
What I do know is that Michael Shermer, the editor of Skeptic magazine, in a case of unfortunate timing, spent the same time Trump was pontificating on racism promoting his own new article chronicling his further rightward descent, driven by his myopic belief that college campuses are the driving force in American ideological life. Their ideology barely registers outside of college towns—or in many of them. College students, he alleged, are brainwashed by liberal professors into becoming irrational radicals: 
Students are being taught by these postmodern professors that there is no truth, that science and empirical facts are tools of oppression by the white patriarchy, and that nearly everyone in America is racist and bigoted, including their own professors, most of whom are liberals or progressives devoted to fighting these social ills.
Shermer blamed postmodernism and liberal ideology for destroying faith in reason, and he then advocated for a specific ideology that would use scientific findings to support a social philosophy that we know from his other writings is essentially an idealized version of midcentury sitcom America. I think that both Shermer and the progressive professors have confused the issue overall. The problem is that everyone wants to impose ideology and to police political positions rather than to teach values and ideals that should help young adults to think about how to select political positions. Universities should be teaching students how to develop personal philosophies and advocating for universal values and commonly accepted social norms. “Liberal” and “conservative” ideologies are irrational, contradictory, and full of happenstance positions born of political expediency. They are inconsistent, and no one could reasonably hold all of the positions labeled as liberal or conservative and claim consistency. As a society, we have to break out of this idea that the current menu of random positions held by a political party must be defended to the death because of a tribal notion that everyone else is the enemy.
 
We literally have Nazis marching in the streets chanting “Jews will not replace us” while the president says that “very fine people” attend their rallies. Joining the right in policing whether college students are too zealous about social justice within the cloistered confines of their remote campuses is hardly an existential issue threatening our survival. To his credit, Shermer seemed to understand some of this, spending last night tweeting about white supremacy and comparing alt-right extremists to ISIS. If only he didn’t seem to act as though campus liberalism was a problem on the same level.
105 Comments
Joe Scales
8/16/2017 10:44:01 am

"At the news conference, Trump conflated the Confederacy—a declared enemy of the United States—with the American Revolution, and he argued that we should not remove statues of Confederate leaders from the public square."

That is a wholly ridiculous smear and not a fair assessment of his position. Look, there's a lot wrong about what has gone on in the last few days and how it was handled. However, to purposely misrepresent intentions doesn't help anyone Jason. Sure, Trump was maneuvering up a slippery slope, but given the animosity that has surfaced recently in regard to honoring founding fathers who were slave holders, the point wasn't completely out of bounds. You know what he meant, yet you spin it in the most damaging way; as a partisan would.

Trump made a stupid political move in defending the rights of free speech and freedom of lawful assembly for a despicable group of people. The opposing political narrative however, is that in doing so he defends their ideology; which he actually implicitly condemned.

Reply
David Bradbury
8/16/2017 01:35:28 pm

"That is a wholly ridiculous smear"
No it isnt. Trump played a hackneyed press-conference trick of making a statement which could be interpreted as Jason did:
"This week it's Robert E. Lee. I notice that Stonewall Jackson's coming down. I wonder, is it George Washington next week, and is it Thomas Jefferson the week after? You know you all- you really do have to ask yourself, 'Where does it stop?' They were there to protest ... the taking down of the statue ..."
Nothing there about why Washington and Jefferson might be next. Not until somebody asked the question did he reveal a reason, which turned out not to be "all were traitors to their lawful government".

Reply
Joe Scales
8/16/2017 02:00:01 pm

"Nothing there about why Washington and Jefferson might be next."

Because they owned slaves, which he clarified during the briefing in question. His intent and meaning in making the comparison was clear, yet partisans quickly interpreted it in a light most disparaging; as is their want.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to take issue with Trump. The Washington and Jefferson comparison isn't one of them given the clear context in which it was made.

Dvaid Bradbury
8/16/2017 06:55:43 pm

As I hinted- evidently not strongly enough- in my comment, he did not clarify the reason for naming Washington and Jefferson in his initial statement, so his intent and meaning were for a time ambiguous. That was a cheap trick.

Uncle Ron
8/16/2017 07:24:51 pm

I hear the remark about Washington and Jefferson live on TV and immediately knew exactly what he meant. Perhaps the media feels that most people are ignorant of the history that gives the remark it's context, in which case they could have used it as an opportunity to educate the "ignorant masses." Instead they use that presumed ignorance to further their disingenuous bashing of everything Trump. That was a cheap trick - on the part of the media.

David Bradbury
8/16/2017 07:34:29 pm

"immediately knew exactly what he meant."
Really? As I indicated earlier, and as Jason originally implied, he could have meant either or both of at least two relevant things.

Yousef
8/18/2017 11:27:49 am

Uncle Ron, really? The media? You definitely are a Trumpster. Always fake news's fault, Isn't it?

Z
8/19/2017 04:26:30 pm

Jamil Smith today: "Tens of thousands stage a peaceful rally in Boston against white supremacy, and [Trump] suggests that the crowd is violent. He picked a side."

Americanegro
8/19/2017 05:28:26 pm

From CNN's website:

"Shortly after 3:30 p.m. -- when many downtown thoroughfares had started to reopen even as pockets of counterdemonstrators remained on the streets -- Boston police via Twitter asked people to stop throwing "urine, bottles and other harmful projectiles at our officers." Police also said rocks were thrown at officers."

Remember these are "counterdemonstrators" 2 hours after the permitted demonstration had ended.

Jason Colavito link
8/16/2017 09:45:32 pm

As it happens, I was going to agree with you, Joe, that I had misunderstood Trump's word salad rant, until Trump's lawyer sent a letter that endorsed my original understanding of Trump's view--that Lee and Washington were equivalent and that the Confederacy and the Colonies were morally equivalent.

Reply
Only Me
8/16/2017 10:37:49 pm

May I point out the problems with your statement?

First, what that lawyer wrote was his words, in his voice. He wrote that to support the president, but those are not the president's own words.

Second, you may feel that email endorses your original interpretation of what the president said, but that doesn't mean you are correct. Again, that email represents the lawyer's opinion, not what the president actually said.

I respectfully disagree with you on this.

Z
8/16/2017 11:15:52 pm

You can read Trump's opinions for yourself.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/16/16155668/trump-history-racism-charlottesville

Only Me
8/17/2017 01:13:18 am

And you can read these, Z.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/african-american-businessman-donald-trump-is-not-a-racist-guys/2016/04/16/466d319c-00eb-11e6-9d36-33d198ea26c5_story.html?utm_term=.616fc3acdd2f

http://unlockyourbravado.com/2016/07/03/trump-racist-lets-take-look/

Now, can we get back to the issue at hand?

Steve StC
8/17/2017 10:09:14 pm

14 mentions of the word Confederate on this blog post. So just because it’s fun to know the facts and study history -

Number of slaves owned in states above the Mason Dixon Line (plus Maryland which was undecided) in the 1790 census -

Connecticut - 2,648
Delaware - 8,887
Maryland - 103,036
New Jersey - 11,423
Pennsylvania - 3,707
Rhode Island - 958

William T. Sherman, who burned Atlanta, held slaves and didn’t free them until 1865. His statue is at 59th Street and 5th Avenue.

General Ulysses S. Grant had slaves and only freed them in 1865 when the Civil War ended. Statues in New York City, Washington DC, Lincoln Park Chicago,

Alexander Hamilton owned at least 2 slaves. We’re gonna be busy destroying all his statues. They’re in Washington DC, Federal Hall, Hamilton Ohio, and behind the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City, etc., etc.

John Winthrop, the first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony had natives as slaves. Statues in New London, Connecticut, Boston, Mass., Harvard College, Hall of Columns U.S. Capitol, etc., etc.

Benjamin Franklin owned 2 slaves. One of his many statues is in Philadelphia - 222. N. 20th Street.

Let’s get our rope and sledge hammers and get busy erasing history.

Americanegro
8/23/2017 06:26:24 pm

"Number of slaves owned in states above the Mason Dixon Line (plus Maryland which was undecided) in the 1790 census -"

No, you ignorant should kill yourself douche. Maryland was always ipso facto below the Mason-Dixon line.

Steve StC
8/25/2017 11:44:31 pm

Reading comprehension much Dumbass? It was still undecided.

Yousef
8/18/2017 11:25:04 am

Wrong. Stop being a apologist for Trump and his cronies. If you voted for Trump then you decided his racist and xenophobic views weren't a deal breaker. Racist much? Joe Scales and Only Me and other unskeptical Fox News viewers, stop saying both side. Are liberals really worse than white supremacist and other assorted bigots? I'm a Assyrian and only conservatives are the ones being racist to me because I look middle eastern despite being born here. I am part of the Chaldean Church but since it's not evangelical or catholic I get hounded by conservatives. Conservatives are insane and bigoted and polls and survey prove it. I expected better from the people here but a Trump supporter is the same anywhere. Sad.

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Joe Scales
8/18/2017 11:38:21 am

I am an Independent and always have been. You have no idea who I supported during the past election. Now please read what I wrote again, and if you have something other than bare ad hominem in response you can spare me the further ignorance on your part.

Only Me
8/18/2017 03:23:31 pm

>>If you voted for Trump...<<

I didn't. Your charge of racism and being a Trump supporter falls flat.

>>...stop saying both side<<

NO. I've already listed the acts violence committed by Antifa, who WAS present at the Charlottesville riot. The ACLU specifically identified members of that group involved in the fighting.

>>Are liberals really worse...<<

NO. I'm calling out violence on both sides. I'm sorry you're not honest enough to do the same.

>>Conservatives are insane and bigoted and polls and survey prove it.<<

Making shit up? Now, that's sad.

Ken
8/16/2017 11:15:30 am

Maybe statues which have real historical or artistic value should be kept with re-purposed plaques which explain the basis for their value. Such as "This statue commemorates the senseless loss of 5000 Union soldiers and 5000 Confederate soldiers at the Battle of XXX on MM/DD/YYYY ..."

There are a lot of ways to rationally explain historical events without glorifying a cause or one side over another.

I thought the idea of remembering horrific events was so that we don't repeat the stupidity. Arbitrarily destroying all monuments to the losers is just a way of sticking your head in the sand.

If it was revealed that Picasso was a child molester, should we gather up all his art and burn it?

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V
8/17/2017 10:13:34 pm

Counter-protestors and the people who initially petitioned for the removal of the statue are on record--for months--as saying that providing historical context to the statue would work for them, just so you're aware. They were specifically asking for the kind of thing you were talking about--a plaque of some sort with a bit of history as to who this guy was and why his statue is in that spot.

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Rough Draft
8/16/2017 11:53:27 am

Jason, I share your ambivalent feelings about destroying works of art, and I feel that you articulated my attitude better than I could have. Thanks very much.

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Riley V
8/16/2017 12:18:25 pm

I was born and raised in the South. I have ancestors who fought for the Confederacy. They were traitors.
Remove the statues. Must were placed in the 1920s, many in the 1950s, to reassert White Supremacy.
Remove them, and place them in museums or Confederate graveyards. The Confederacy should be forgotten, neither should it be honored.

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Joe Scales
8/16/2017 01:24:38 pm

"They were traitors."

They were secessionists; the legality of which wasn't settled until the Supreme Court ruled on the issue in 1869.

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David Bradbury
8/16/2017 01:42:13 pm

If they took aggressive military action against the legitimate government in support of their desire for secession, they were traitors.

Joe Scales
8/16/2017 02:04:26 pm

Secession is an intriguing historical issue given how our union was initially formed, and not as simple as you make it out to be. To the victors go the spoils, I suppose.

Americanegro
8/16/2017 03:26:53 pm

"When in the course of human events..."

Americanegro
8/16/2017 03:45:04 pm

"If they took aggressive military action against the legitimate government in support of their desire for secession, they were traitors."

Not according to the one place treason is defined, the Constitution. Lincoln on the other hand violated his oath to protect and defend the Constitution and see that the laws be faithfully executed.

Those who don't remember history are condemned to not remember history.

Residents Fan
8/16/2017 06:22:17 pm

Secession may not have been completely illegal then, but there
is the matter of the Confederacy "levying War against" the US by attacking Fort Sumter. That sounds pretty treasonous to me.

David Bradbury
8/16/2017 07:00:50 pm

"Not according to the one place treason is defined, the Constitution."
Really? Lee and Jackson did not "levy war against the United States"?
Just because a substantial number of said states were involved on their side, that doesn't mean they were at war with another secessionist faction called "The Union".

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
8/16/2017 09:14:27 pm

What Residents Fan and David Bradbury said. The constitution never addresses the possibility of secession, so yes, that was a grey area until the 1869 ruling. But the war only started when the Confederates fired on Fort Sumter. Article Three, Section Three.

Americanegro
8/16/2017 09:35:22 pm

"Really? Lee and Jackson did not "levy war against the United States"?"

No, in the same sense that divorce is not adultery, and in the same sense that divorce does not require the consent of both parties. United States President James Buchanan (President just prior to the Civil War), Fourth Annual Message to Congress on the State of the Union December 3, 1860: "The fact is that our Union rests upon public opinion, and can never be cemented by the blood of its citizens shed in civil war. If it can not live in the affections of the people, it must one day perish. Congress possesses many means of preserving it by conciliation, but the sword was not placed in their hand to preserve it by force."

Former President of the United States Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to William H. Crawford, Secretary of War under President James Madison, on June 20, 1816: "In your letter to Fisk, you have fairly stated the alternatives between which we are to choose : 1, licentious commerce and gambling speculations for a few, with eternal war for the many ; or, 2, restricted commerce, peace, and steady occupations for all. If any State in the Union will declare that it prefers separation with the first alternative, to a continuance in union without it, I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate'.

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
8/16/2017 09:50:21 pm

As I just said, regardless of the legality of secession, the Confederates in Charleston fired on ships of the US Navy and then on a US Army fort. They levied war against the United States. You could argue that they weren't Americans anymore and weren't subject to treason statues, but if they didn't want to be subject to treason statutes they should have tried to work out the legalities of secession before firing first.

For the record, I don't share Lincoln's original motivation for the war, to preserve the Union at all costs. If it hadn't been for the slaves, I'd have let the Confederates leave — but then, if it hadn't been for slavery, the Confederates wouldn't have left.

Byron DeLear
8/16/2017 09:50:54 pm

Concerning the illegality of the rebellion -- the Confederacy was a conspiracy against the United States of America -- before any so-called articles of secession, or legislation was attempted, the rebels were violating the direct language of the constitution. The U.S. Constitution shows the inherent illegality of the Confederation -- Article 1, Section 10: "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation" -- Article 3, Section 3: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them"

On the statues -- the symbols of the confederacy and monuments to their heroes, rebels against our country, the U.S.A., are a testament to the ideology that racism and slavery should be institutionalized, protected. Our country's citizens whose ancestors were slaves should not have to face state sanctioned statutes and monuments to the racist ideology that fought to defend the institution of slavery. The removal of such devices from government property is fit and proper.

V
8/17/2017 10:28:44 pm

The Civil War and its causes and arguments are not a simple and easily-quantified topic. The Confederates were traitors to those who did not recognize their right to secede, and heroes to those who did, EXACTLY like the US founding fathers. And who was the aggressor depends on your viewpoint, as well; what everyone forgets to discuss is that heinous as slavery was, it was also the backbone of the Southern economy, and the North wasn't offering any assistance or plans to alter that in a controlled fashion, either. So one might say that the North failed in their obligations to the Union before the Confederacy did. It doesn't mitigate the fact that the South was engaging in the OWNERSHIP OF HUMAN BEINGS, nor that the only particular "states' rights" they were interested in protecting were the ones pertaining to slavery. All it does is make pinpointing "who started it" and "who betrayed whom" ambiguous.

And the Civil War's impact is still felt today in the former Confederate states; their economies are STILL generally less robust than those of what had been the Union, as well as racism tending to be more egregious there. (And yes, I say this as someone who spent literally half her childhood growing up down there, and still visits regularly.) The two still kinda go together--when you're poor, having someone to blame can be very attractive, even if it's wrong and unfair.

So perhaps the solution isn't to remove monuments, but to remediate economies better, which starts with EDUCATION...which would make these statues less of an issue in the first place, because people would have context in the first place.

David Bradbury
8/16/2017 01:19:12 pm

Is it significant that the Charlottesville statue of Lee was commissioned shortly after D.W. Griffith released "Intolerance"- the movie which served as a partial answer to the overt racism against African Americans in his earlier "The Birth of a Nation"?

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Americanegro
8/16/2017 04:54:34 pm

No, Triple D.

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David Bradbury
8/16/2017 07:07:36 pm

Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives?

Americanegro
8/16/2017 09:05:22 pm

Dazzling drizzly dowagers.

TONY S.
8/16/2017 10:26:29 pm

Ok, I just have to ask... what IS a drizzly dowager?

Americanegro
8/18/2017 12:58:00 am

A lady of a certain age, imagined in black and white like 1950s TV with that second or third drink too many in her hand at a cocktail party.

Only Me
8/16/2017 01:31:09 pm

"fine people"

President Trump specified he was referring to the people who had obtained a permit to peacefully protest the removal of Robert E. Lee's statue. The situation only turned into a recreation of Braveheart when the white nationalists and counter-protesters showed up with shields and weapons.

President Trump did NOT conflate the Confederacy with the American Revolution. He asked a poignant question that apparently struck a chord with you, Jason. It's a fact George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave owners, so Trump asked if their statues were next on the chopping block for that reason.

You already mentioned the controversy with Teddy Roosevelt. There also happens to be a politician who wants to remove the relief on Stone Mountain Memorial. Will Robert Byrd's name be removed from buildings due to his past membership with the KKK?

I found it interesting Tucker Carlson had Black Lives Matter supporter Jasmyne Cannick on his show. She said, "You can't change American history and I think that's part of what's missing from this conversation. Do I want to see monuments and statues of people who are racist or supported slavery? Not really, but, at the same time, I don't completely want to erase American history either because I want to make sure future generations know what happened."

The question President Trump was asking is simple: where do you draw the line once you start?

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Residents Fan
8/16/2017 06:53:24 pm

"President Trump did NOT conflate the Confederacy with the American Revolution. He asked a poignant question that apparently struck a chord with you, Jason. It's a fact George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave owners, so Trump asked if their statues were next on the chopping block for that reason. "

Washington set his slaves free in his will, though.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=jIx27RMQZbYC&pg=PA224&dq=%22george+washington%22+%2B%22+freed+his+slaves+in+his+will%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi30PnW59zVAhVOa1AKHdAvBs4Q6AEIRTAG#v=onepage&q=%22george%20washington%22%20%2B%22%20freed%20his%20slaves%20in%20his%20will%22&f=false

Washington also happens to be admired by most Americans regardlessly of their ethnicity. His memorials embody other values than white supremacy. I am not aware of anyone calling for Washington's statues to be taken down.

There's also this GW quote from 1788 that I thought of during Trump's travel ban attempts, which is unlike to appeal to a white
supremacist of any kind:

"I had always hoped, that this land might become a safe and agreeable asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong".

(Cited in Fritz Hirschfeld, "George Washington and the Jews", 2005, p.41)

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Only Me
8/16/2017 07:16:11 pm

No one IS calling for Washington's statues to be taken down. That isn't the point.

Yes, Washington set his slaves free, but the fact he owned slaves is a point of contention for some who view the Founding Fathers as influential white men that founded the country for white people. That is a real mindset, wrong as it is.

So, back to the point: where do we draw the line if a group with an agenda wants to attack American history by getting rid of the reminders of that history?

Graham
8/16/2017 10:43:53 pm

Sadly to say, someone just has called for the removal of statues of George Washington and Andrew Jackson from Chicago.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/08/16/jackson-washington-park-protest-presidents-slave-owners/

I have friends in the Civil War battlefield preservation movement who are concerned that this is going to affect their work, they depend on public support to preserve these sites from developers (Local/State/Federal Govt cannot (or will not) foot the bill to purchase land.), if people get scared away, or turn away then they could loose that funding.

Denise
9/1/2017 04:00:21 pm

Just wondering: Was that last quote from Washington's letter to Touro Synagogue? If so that was the time he was trying to put pressure on Rhode Island to ratify the constitution (they wouldn't until the Bill of Rights was written not just promised, they took the separation of church and state super suriously). Rhode Islanders (yes I am a native) See that letter, and Washington's threats of going to war on Rhode Island as different tactics to bring us around. Just some fun trivia.

CJTX
8/17/2017 06:32:56 am

"The question President Trump was asking is simple: where do you draw the line once you start?"

Easy - those who rebelled against England and those who rebelled against the USA.

Do we have monuments to Aldrich Ames?

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Riley V
8/17/2017 08:23:23 pm

Exactly right. Would Mr. Trump approve of statues of the Rosenbergs?

Causticacrostic
8/16/2017 01:38:18 pm

Most of those statue were erected to facilitate the "Lost Cause of the Confederacy" narrative.

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Mordecai
8/18/2017 11:06:39 am

True. Joe Scales, Only me, and the other conservatives here are being apologists for white supremacists and racists. If you voted or support Trump then you decided him being a bigot was not a deal breaker then you have to blame yourselfs for this disgusting and pathetic administration. Stop watching Fox News and I know it will be hard since the conservatives here are middle aged or old and/or white. It's sad the conservatives here consider themselves skeptics while getting stuck in the fallacy of a golden age past that Trump made up. I advise the conservatives here to read "The Republican Mind" by Chris Mooney. And no he is not a liberal and despite the title he attacks the left as well. Read it and stop being snowflakes!!!

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Joe Scales
8/18/2017 11:49:30 am

I don't preach diversity. I live diversity. If you can't handle a logical argument Mordecai, and instead have to resort to pure ad hominem, then save it for someone else. However, if you wish to know how I feel about white supremacy, I'll tell you right now that if you march with a Nazi flag, not only do I believe you are asking for a beating, but you deserve one as well. However, that's not how the First Amendment works. That is what is lost in this conversation. So if I choose to properly frame the debate as such, and you can only respond with malice... what does that make you Mordecai? How are you helping to bring us together? Or do you even want to...

Only Me
8/18/2017 08:02:33 pm

I can't take you seriously, Mordecai. I know, in your heart, you WANT me to be an apologist, but I'm not.

I didn't vote for Trump, so your assumptions fall apart. Offering my interpretation of what he said, my opinion, is not being an apologist.

crainey
8/16/2017 02:21:55 pm

Two points:

1. My understanding is that the statues are not being destroyed but are being moved to locations where they can be put in historical context. Museums I believe.

2. Washington and Jefferson were slave holders as were all wealthy men of their time. Lee and Jackson chose to fight on the side that wanted to continue slavery almost a 100 years after Washington and Jefferson helped found the country. There should be some distinction there.

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Americanegro
8/16/2017 03:31:48 pm

"...were slave holders as were all wealthy men of their time."

I'll take SIMPLY NOT TRUE for 200, Alex.

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crainey
8/16/2017 04:21:54 pm

Point taken. I formally replace "all" with "many".

Joe Scales
8/16/2017 04:29:48 pm

And Jefferson, a known spendthrift, died so deep in debt that his slaves had to be sold to pay them. But it was nice of him to try to free them upon his death, as Washington did. Though some might suspect Jefferson was simply looking out for his extended family...

juan ruiz
8/18/2017 08:25:51 am

"And Jefferson, a known spendthrift, died so deep in debt "

He died deep in debt because he agreed to pay off the debt of his father in law which was enormous.

Joe Scales
8/18/2017 09:46:23 am

Sure Juan. It had nothing to do with near constant renovation and redesign of Monticello and all the French wine stashed in its cellars.

Titus pullo
8/16/2017 02:51:03 pm

The mob needs to be appeased. Tear down the statues including the jefferson memorial and throw lincoln in there ad well as he wanted free states joining the union to be for whites. Lets just finish the job and ban all speech that offends the left. Oh and forget any disent on central banks, deficit dpending, govt picking winners and losers in the marketplace, and no more unequal results except for special groups. Hell get rid of the bill of rights and free association. After all the bolshevik thugs who might start with dispecable neonazis wont be happy until they shut up all who disagree with them. Violence is now the preferred weapon of the left. I guess if u disagree you are the modern kulaks. Ill pick liberty and free association not some soviet style diversity state.

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Z
8/16/2017 10:25:15 pm

https://twitter.com/JuliusGoat/status/896326301832925184

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Kal
8/16/2017 07:56:24 pm

The 'left' were not the neo nazi's at the rally, nor do they condone violence. The moderate 'right' does not condone violence at rallies.

The supremacists are a 'terrorist group' and should be called out as such.

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Americanegro
8/16/2017 09:11:17 pm

It is incorrect to say that "the left" does not condone violence. As an anarchist pussy calling himself Legba Carrefour said in this Sunday's Washington Post "It's just property at the end of the day."

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Zoroaster
8/18/2017 10:55:17 am

The anti- facists at one time fought white supremacist. It was when America fought the Nazis. Both sides did bad stuff but one side was to blame and it was the not the Americans.

RiverM
8/16/2017 10:00:02 pm

Bringing and throwing water bottles filled with concrete, feces, urine, STDs isn't violence?

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CJTX
8/17/2017 06:34:58 am

Do you have ANY evidence this actually occurred?

V
8/17/2017 10:36:38 pm

The only sources claiming this are extremely biased sources that have been caught out lying before. In other words, the reliability is extremely low. Please provide documentary evidence, preferably in the form of video.

Zoroaster
8/18/2017 10:51:41 am

At least the left didn't kill anyone. Stop being a apologist for racists.

TONY S.
8/16/2017 10:23:57 pm

Unfortunately, it's not true that the left does not condone violence. A minority segment of Antifa actually embraces violence as a means to an end. They were there.

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Titus pullo
8/16/2017 10:29:03 pm

Just read wapo today. A wonderful article by the so called antifasists justifing violence as a preemptive war. Gosh where have we heard that before. Funny how the article talks about their history fighting franco and hitler but domehow they were awol when trotsky butcherd poles and stalin ukrainians by the millions or pol pot. Sorry but the left terrorists will just impose the same intolerence the neonazis will . Both are a clear and present danger to liberty

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TONY S.
8/16/2017 11:54:17 pm

They're anti fascist, not anti communist. ;)

BigNick
8/16/2017 09:40:46 pm

Political thought is a spectrum, not a coin with two sides. On both ends of the spectrum their are people who want to restrict our rights, both sides have people who are willing to use violence. Moderates on both sides need to retake control of the political process.

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Erickson
8/16/2017 11:02:00 pm

Last night I heard someone compare the statues with the way that concentration camps have been preserved. I'm surprised Trump did not do the same - although it is a ridiculous argument to make. Our history is in the slave markets that are preserved, the slave quarters at Lee's home, the Underground Railroad sites . . . the cemeteries of the civil war.

The statue at Charlottesville was not erected to commemorate an event. They were not erected as a symbol of the nation. The history of the statues is the myth of the Lost Cause. It would be fine to put some of them in a museum where that could be studied and understood. Even the KKK has its place in a museum. Neither has its place in a public park.

Are they art? Maybe. But it is also one with a particular history and ongoing effect. If the statues were simply art, it would not generate the reaction that we saw. We remove art all the time.



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Andy White
8/17/2017 10:39:31 am

I agree.

The "statues are there to remind of us of history" argument usually rings hollow to me, often at odds with why the monuments were erected in the first place and what the monuments themselves say. The monuments that I've looked at don't typically aim to promote a balanced, nuanced view of historical complexity. They'e there to honor. That becomes problematic when what they're honoring is so repugnant to a large proportion of the population and when their placement (on public ground) suggests a government endorsement.

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Joe Scales
8/17/2017 12:35:34 pm

I believe reminders of a time when our country was at war with each other might be something we'd all want to think long and hard about these days. Also the questionable practice of filtering our vision of the past through current mores. Still, I do understand how someone would be offended by lionizing Confederate heroes right in their neighborhood park, given the less noble particulars of that cause.

Perhaps some day we'll all think of ourselves as Americans, rather then some hyphenated distinction we bear only a passing resemblance to after a multitude of generations on this continent. Love each other, and all that. Not in my lifetime, I fear... and probably not until another civil war type catastrophe comes along to remind us we're better off as one nation.

Andy White
8/17/2017 01:13:10 pm

I understand the visceral feeling of wanting to just tear them all down. I'll probably get skewered for this, but I think these things really do need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. They are of different things, say different things, and mean different things. The social process of deciding what a particular monument means and what to do about it is important.

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
8/16/2017 11:10:50 pm

Museums do seem the best solution to the Confederate problem.

As for Washington, Jefferson, and other figures with a more mixed legacy than the Confederates, I'm reminded of a statue of Oliver Cromwell that stands outside the Houses of Parliament. Cromwell was a horrible man who massacred the Irish and made himself dictator in the wake of revolution, setting the template for countless other revolutionary leaders through modern history. But his statue stands outside Parliament because his defeat of the royalists established the principle that Parliament, not the monarch, is the supreme authority in England. He set a precedent on which the modern United Kingdom is built, and without which the United States would not exist. Washington and Jefferson were not the saints that American national mythology claims they were, but they deserve at least as much respect as Cromwell does.

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TONY S.
8/16/2017 11:11:19 pm

One comment I see pretty frequently is, "By taking down these statues down, you're erasing history!"

You can't erase history by moving something to a museum. These people are not going to erased from history books.

Nobody thought at the end of World War II that by taking down all of the Nazi banners and flags that were all over Europe they were erasing history. It just seemed like the right thing to do.

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Only Me
8/17/2017 12:24:28 am

Moving the statues to a museum is acceptable. Pulling them down in protest, as happened in Durham, is not. What prevents any group from simply doing the same to any statue, memorial, etc. because they don't like it?

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CJTX
8/17/2017 06:36:33 am

And some of us, including me, condemn that act in Durham for the reason you specified.

TONY S.
8/17/2017 10:31:24 am

Moving them to a museum is exactly what I advocate. This way they can be remembered and viewed in their proper historical context.

Of course, most of those Nazi and KKK protestors don't seem the types to have ever stepped inside a museum, no matter how clean cut they tried to appear to be.

USGrant
8/17/2017 12:37:58 am

As far as I know, most of the statues were put up by private organizations, funded by private donors. Over time, local and state governments took over the duty of caring for the statues. The easiest solution is to give the statues back to those organizations or sell them. If someone wants to keep the statue on their own land, then fine.

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Ashley Carter link
8/17/2017 01:18:40 am

I suggested via Twitter last night that 3 options may suffice. In x number of years remove a to be determined number from their current locations to

A) All 50 States (51)
B) Military Colleges
and Embassies
C) Museums

The behavior is unacceptable. There is no value in arguing or tolerating the dissembling of WHY the question produces violence 150 years AFTER THE FACT when IDEALISM by default is coupled with Progress. Manifest DESTINY IS RACIST NO MATTER WHOM IS AT THE NATIVE HELM.

Therefore, if citizens CHOOSE TO BOARD THE SCIFY SHIP OF STATE then by all EQUITABLE MEANS: Lets MAKE IT ABOUT HISTORY and the CHALLENGE OF FAKE NEWS.

Socialist Realism if such can be called ART without FEAR BEING PRESENT, need not quibble about such a high minded victory achieved by moving a majority of these conversation starters from their region of origin to ALL 50 STATES.

SHOULD US CITIZENS in all corners OF THIS HERE COTTON PICKING EMPIRE NOT have places to DISCUSS these matters with token representations? How can education take place when those who riot are MERE IDENTITY THIEVES? Their melanin deprived hides may mask their absent vowel intonations, their adherence to Southern Stereotypes such as Sweet Tea as a Meade substitute for yet MORE PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC ABUSE OF NOT ONLY HISTORY BUT ALSO INDIVIDUALISM.

Need we shame ourselves ( need I reveal I am no orator) by speaking after the audience departs?

I happen to be a living trauma survivor over related issues intersecting with religion on one end and free will. I can barely claim to be a citizen capable of contributing value to my own family or country but I can claim to contribute to the value of other human beings quality of life for themselves and their families. I am disposable human being and my community and family still remind me whenever I may have science fiction on my mind. Progress isnt for pariahs.

Move the damn stones Moses. That is the Democratic onus after all within Equity. Perhaps PLACES TO HOLD CONVERSATION THAT MUST BE INSULTED AS SOPHISTRY BY DEFAULT will create THE DOMESTIC BALKANIZATION everyone IN LOVE WITH SCIENCE FICTION MUST FIND in order to transcend the PAST AS THE CORPSE IT IS.

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CJTX
8/17/2017 06:26:44 am

Sorry Jason, I like you, but these three things are not like the other:

-Teddy Roosevelt
-Columbus
-Victorian politicians

I suppose putting hate on a spectrum is pointless, but Columbus invaded inhabited lands, declared them for a European monarchy, and proceeded to enslave and eradicate them.

Reply
David Bradbury
8/17/2017 08:42:41 am

I think you may in fact be agreeing with Jason there.

Reply
CJTX
8/17/2017 08:46:16 am

"Another thing that troubles me is judging the past by the standards of the present. Some college students, for example, called for the removal of a statue of Teddy Roosevelt from the American Museum of Natural History last year because he held eugenicist and racist views, and there are efforts to remove statues of Columbus and dozens of Victorian politicians. The problem is that no person is perfect, and no person is so uniformly excellent that his or her views will not run afoul of someone at some time."

Perhaps I misread, if so, apologies Jason.


Titus pullo
8/17/2017 01:12:06 pm

I dont have an issue if the local communities wish to take down from public land. I do object to forcing or destroying said monuments. And does this stop at monuments or do we start to censor or ban and private property including books or rven free speech and free assembly if the left doesnt agree? Slippery slope

Reply
TONY S.
8/17/2017 08:08:03 pm

Remember that when the right advocates censorship, since they have more of a history of it than the left does.

Reply
V
8/17/2017 10:47:21 pm

The local community had voted in an open referendum to take them down. The white supremacist protestors who were protesting this were the ones who were attempting to force THEIR will on the community...from outside of it, I might add. The vast majority of those protestors weren't even from VIRGINIA, much less from Charlottesville. On top of THAT, the removal of the statues wasn't even going to happen, because there was a court-ordered freeze on it pending settlement of a lawsuit about the removal. Which was ongoing BECAUSE it was a public monument on public lands.

So your argument holds NO water whatsoever. This was a racist invasion that was TRAMPLING on democracy, not upholding it. How can you support the destruction of the very basis of American society this way, sir? I thought you prided yourself on being a PATRIOT.

Reply
Only Me
8/17/2017 08:48:59 pm

Oh my. What I feared appears to be coming true.

https://bluelivesmatter.blue/abe-lincoln-statue-vandalized/

Reply
Only Me
8/17/2017 10:27:00 pm

First Lincoln, now Jefferson.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/08/17/al_sharpton_defund_the_jefferson_memorial_asking_me_to_subsidize_the_insult_of_my_family.html

Reply
Crash55
8/18/2017 07:07:25 pm

CNN has a chart showing when the monuments went up. There is one spike around 1907 and another after WWII.

To me the monuments should be looked at in three groups:
1. Prior to 1900
2. 1900 - WWII
3. Post WWII

The third group was in response to the civil rights movement so they should go.

The first group is small and well over 100 years old now so they themselves are history. They should stay with if need be a plaque explaining the history.

The group between 1900 - WWII is the problematic one. The CNN chart points out that the NAACP was founded right after the peak in monuments. At first this would make it seem that they were being erected to remind blacks of the place. However this is also the time frame when lots of veterans would have been dying off. That would lead to a sense of nostalgia and a desire to erect memorials to remember them.

To me the monuments should be looked at to see who or what they honor and where they are located. A monument to Lee at Gettysburg or Arlington or Appomattox makes sense since those places are directly related to him. A statue to him in a random southern city though as no reason to be there other than to honor the Cause. In the same way a monument to the soldiers from a city that died in the war makes sense. It is about the soldiers and not the cause.

Stone Mountain should be left alone as it is a work of art. Add displays explaining the war but don't destroy it.

Reply
Only Me
8/18/2017 08:41:32 pm

A reasonable approach, but any historicity these monuments have isn't enough. The statue of Roger B. Taney was removed from the Maryland State House grounds after standing there since 1872. The Robert E. Lee Memorial Statue in Dallas, TX was unveiled in 1936 and is facing possible removal.

The Lee statue is particularly interesting example, since I'm being called an apologist for white supremacists and racists. Here's the speech Franklin D. Roosevelt gave at the unveiling:

"I am very happy to take part in this unveiling of the statue of General Robert E. Lee.

All over the United States we recognize him as a great leader of men, as a great general. But, also, all over the United States I believe that we recognize him as something much more important than that. We recognize Robert E. Lee as one of our greatest American Christians and one of our greatest American gentlemen."

I guess FDR is an apologist. I guess his monuments need to be removed, too.

Reply
Americanegro
8/18/2017 09:40:11 pm

Since FDR had a live-in Soviet spy, yes. "We recognize Robert E. Lee as one of our greatest American Jews..." That work for you?

Only Me
8/18/2017 10:10:39 pm

Since I'm not calling for the removal of statuary or monuments, no, it doesn't work for me.

Crash55
8/19/2017 08:45:10 am

To me the historical value is important. The one in Maryland I would have added informational plaques to. The one in Dallas I would have had removed to a museum as there is no tie between Lee and Dallas.

What I don't want to see is what a local news story asked yesterday. There are two confederate flags in artwork in the NY State Capital. One shows the flag surrounded by a laurel leaf showing it wastaken as a war prize. The other shows the same flag being held by a Confederate that was just shot. These are not glorifying the Confederate yet people are asking if they should be removed

Americanegro
8/19/2017 06:26:40 pm

"ONLY ME
8/18/2017 10:10:39 pm
Since I'm not calling for the removal of statuary or monuments, no, it doesn't work for me."

You missed the point. Since when do we have a "Best Christian" award in this country? At least we've established that "one of our greatest American Jews..." wouldn't work for you.

Only Me
8/19/2017 07:38:17 pm

You're the one missing the point.

Crash55 made a reasonable suggestion on what could be done with the monuments based on their historicity. I merely pointed out that historicity alone isn't enough.

I've also been accused of being an apologist, so my mention of FDR's speech was to make another point: if he can make that speech, by the logic of my accusers, he is an apologist. Should he be punished by having his monuments removed?

There is no "Greatest Christian, Jew, etc." award. You've established an inability to follow a conversation.

Americanegro
8/22/2017 05:36:40 pm

"CRASH55
8/19/2017 08:45:10 am
To me the historical value is important. The one in Maryland I would have added informational plaques to. The one in Dallas I would have had removed to a museum as there is no tie between Lee and Dallas."

You're an idiot. Lee was a major factor in the Mexican-American war. No Lee, no Texas.

Americanegro
8/22/2017 05:40:43 pm

"ONLY ME
8/18/2017 08:41:32 pm

We recognize Robert E. Lee as one of our greatest American Christians"

"ONLY ME
8/19/2017 07:38:17 pm

There is no "Greatest Christian, Jew, etc." award. You've established an inability to follow a conversation."

Res ipsa loquitur.

Only Me
8/22/2017 05:58:30 pm

"and one of our greatest American gentlemen"

That means he won that "award", too.

Seriously, changing one word from one line in a speech means nothing. The monument wasn't an "award" for Christianity, Judaism or any other faith. You cherry-picked a single line for an irrelevant argument that IS irrelevant because it had nothing to do with the point I made.

Amsterdamnegro
8/23/2017 06:36:31 pm

What I hear you saying is it would enrage you if Roosevelt had said "one of our greatest American Jews" but you're totally fine with "one of our greatest American Christians".

You're a jewhater, plain and simple.

Only Me
8/23/2017 07:07:10 pm

If the last comment about being a "jewhater" was directed at me, it's clear someone is too mentally deficient to be participating in this conversation.

E.P. Grondine
8/21/2017 09:30:21 am

Hi Jason -

Easy answer:
Move them to Confederate Battlefields.

Reply
Americanegro
8/22/2017 05:23:29 pm

"E.P. GRONDINE
8/21/2017 09:30:21 am
Hi Jason -

Easy answer:
Move them to Confederate Battlefields."

Are you TRYING to be an idiot? ALL Civil War Battlefields are Confederate Battlefields. Charlottesville was in fact the site of a Civil War battle. There's a shopping center there now. You want Confederate statues in shopping centers? Just what I'd expect from a fake Indian.

Reply
Steve StC
8/26/2017 03:45:08 pm

History much Dumbass?

Gettysburg is in Pennsylvania.
Battle of Portland Harbor, Maine.
Battle of Sporting Hill, Pennsylvania
Battle of Carlisle Pennsylvania
Battle of Hunterstown Pennsylvania
Battle of Fairfield Pennsylvania


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