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Italian Mathematician: Ancient  Greeks Discovered America

9/22/2013

47 Comments

 
This morning my washing machine broke down, and it took half an hour for Home Depot to acknowledge my extended warranty because, as it turns out, they don’t provide a certificate documenting the warranty; instead, and unbeknownst to me, apparently the only proof was on the original purchase receipt, and not in the packet of documentation that came with the machine, or in the invoice or any other documentation, all of which I had in a thick file. Further, they couldn’t look me up in their system because they “forgot” to take my phone number at the time of purchase, which is the only way to review purchases “that old.” But it was all for naught because Home Depot only schedules repairs through Maytag, and Maytag doesn’t work weekends, holidays, or evenings. In short, I’ve been a bit pressed for time after spending the morning trying to wring out laundry and bail out the washing machine and then travel to Home Depot to get a new copy of the receipt. As it turns out, I have to have the receipt and not just the warranty number because Maytag is paranoid that someone might use another person’s warranty number, so they have to scan the receipt for proof at time of service, according to Home Depot.

Nevertheless, there is a great story for today. How could I resist this one? Over at the Rogue Classicist there is a post discussing the new book by an Italian mathematician which claims that the ancient Greeks discovered America. Aside from the normal claims that various imaginary islands in Greco-Roman literature really refer to America, the author, Lucio Russo, has a few main lines of evidence, all of which are, to be charitable, stupid. To mask this, Russo accuses historians and archaeologists of… wait for it… here it comes… close-minded dogmatism! He further claims that his work is of such genius that scholars cannot understand its arguments and therefore reject them.

The first piece of evidence I’ve dealt with before. The author claims that Roman art depicting items that look like pineapples is proof of contact across the ocean. He forgets that the pineapple was so named because of its resemblance to European pinecones, which are what we are looking at in ancient art. I wrote an entire post about them here.

The second piece of evidence is also a lie. Russo claims that Native Americans cannot grow beards; therefore, any mention or depiction of beards in pre-Columbian times is proof of European contact. This stereotype, very common in Europe, is the result of the romantic cowboy novels of Karl May, a German writer who had never met a Native American nor visited the West. His books were among Hitler’s favorites. Native Americans can grow facial hair.

The third piece of evidence is a little more complex. Russo cites the Mayan Popol Vuh, the creation epic, in which it states that four women were created in the east, at the edge of the sky, in a grassland. There they gave rise to many people who wandered through the grass in search of a homeland. “They did this for a long time, when they were in the grassland: black people, white people, people of many faces, many languages, uncertain, there at the edge of the sky” (trans. Dennis Tedlock). They then walked to Tulan Zuyua, a mythical mountain of seven caves. I’m sure it takes no genius to realize that Native peoples did not use eighteenth or nineteenth century scientific racism classifications. I’m not an expert in Maya mythology, but I imagine this refers to color symbolism rather than skin color, but even if it did refer to skin, Native peoples had enough variation in color that European explorers were quite taken by the many shades.

According to Russo, the reference to black and white people clearly implies that Europeans and Africans invaded Mexico in Greek times. He combines this with the slightly later passage in the Popol Vuh in which the black and white people cross from Tulan Zuyua to a new land by crossing a sea, also called a lake in other Maya sources. “They crossed over as if there were no sea. They just crossed over on some stones.” While Russo wants us to read this as an account of swift Greek boats cutting across the Atlantic, he neglects to note that the text specifically locates this event as occurring near Great Hollow, an entrance to the underworld that was decidedly in Mexico. Additionally, we know that this particular passage has some contamination from non-Maya sources since Tulan is a Nahuatl word meaning “place of rushes.”  Finally, the Maya state clearly that all of the people involved in this story were Mayans.

Russo also incorrectly asserts that the Greeks were the only people to understand that the earth was round, a fact well-known to every educated person in the West from Classical Greece down to today. In fact, in Archaic Greece, the belief was that the earth was flat, as evidenced from passages in Homer, Hesiod, and Herodotus. Church Fathers like Ambrose and Jerome held for round earth, and scholars like the venerable Bede and Thomas Aquinas advocated its roundness. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

His final claim is that America vanished from ancient maps because Ptolemy misidentified the Fortunate Islands as the Canaries rather than Antilles, cutting 15 degrees of longitude from the earth and creating centuries of doubt about the shape of the earth and the ancients’ ability to navigate it. This, however, is second order speculation, building on earlier speculative assumptions that in circular fashion depend on a faith-based belief in pure and accurate original maps from which Ptolemy diverged.

47 Comments
Varika
9/22/2013 09:13:19 am

It seems to me that the Mayan tale in question bears a certain similarity to the Tower of Babel myth; it seems like it's trying to explain why there are different people with different languages, so even if it IS talking about lighter and darker skin tones, rather than some kind of symbolic dichotomy, it's still not referring to European racial stereotypes but to express the wide range of people who were...there? created? whatever the myth states.

Also, OMG, that stupid thing about non-Europeans being beardless again! SERIOUSLY, don't these people EVER open their eyes and look around? Actually, you know, go MEET the people they're making crap up about?

Reply
Kealen
3/14/2015 07:06:15 pm

The theory isn't completely ludicrous, Carthaginians sailed along the west African coast and not only do Greek historians talk about multiple historical figures sailing past the Gibraltar straits their colonies stretched as far as the straits. There are anomalies like finding coca leaves in Egyptian tombs also so I can't disregard the possibility. Though I'm more inclined to believe a crossing would have taken place at the west African - Brazil crossing and the Phoenicians as the most likely discovers of the Americas rather than the Greeks. Considering some Greek and Indian scholars claim contact with each other over a thousand years before Alexander's army invaded. I am inclined to reserve judgement rather than be arrogant and discount ancient historians completely

Reply
Aristofilos
7/26/2015 11:20:53 pm

The Pheonix was brother of Europa ,so the phoenicians was Hellens ! see the family tree of Aegyptus ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegyptus And you can read Plato's book of Timeus where the Egyptian priest telling Solon ,how old was the Athenians cosmocratory ....

Nick
8/14/2017 04:32:57 pm

The reason why ancient Greeks and Indians claim to have contact before Alexander the great was the fact that Hellenic tribes are indo-european .

If you take time to brake down the ancient Greek language , it is close to the Indian one. Used similar words.
Check it out in sure you will agree with we had contact with each other.

Thanks nick

Aaron Adair link
9/22/2013 11:28:41 am

I thought Lactantius found the round earth laughable. There has also been some arguments put forth that Augustine was a flat earther at heart.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
9/22/2013 11:51:48 am

You're quite right. I should have said "Jerome" rather than "Lactantius." Lactantius did indeed find the round earth laughable. I will change it above. Thanks!

Reply
Jason Colavito link
9/22/2013 11:53:03 am

Also, Ambrose is less ambiguous than Augustine, so I'll go with him instead, too.

Reply
Erik G
9/22/2013 11:53:22 am

Oh Jason... Surely you must realize how serendipitous il professore's findings are for you? The Argo must have sailed to America. Perhaps Colchis means Mexico in an as-yet undiscovered Mayan dialect (gargle "Colchis" long enough and it does begin to sound distinctly Mayan). This could mean that the Phasis might have been the Mississippi, possibly a name given it by an earlier wave of Minoans, or maybe Phoenicians, or, failing these, Atlanteans. Could the Templars have used secret Ancient Greek sources to direct their own galleys across the Atlantic? The possibilities are endless...

Unfortunately so.

And hey -- I like the blue.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
9/22/2013 12:19:46 pm

You might be interested to know that Henrietta Mertz actually proposed that the Argonauts sailed to South America, that the Phasis was the Rio de la Plata, and that Colchis was Tiwanaku in Bolivia. David Childress, of course, repeated her silly claims wholesale. For our purposes, it's probably interesting to see that she equated Scylla and Charybdis with the Bay of Fundy, the same area where Frederick J. Pohl thought the Henry Sinclair supposedly hid the Ark of the Covenant and/or the Holy Grail, cloaking it as the volcanic lands of the Zeno Narrative!

Reply
Erik G
9/22/2013 12:59:02 pm

Thanks, Jason. It saddens me that Frederick Pohl (whose SF was almost always so logical) should have been party to such speculation. I don't much care about the others.

Colchis in Bolivia? Oh boy...

But what annoys me greatly is that no-one putting forward these claims seems to have any idea about the ships of the ancient period. Galleys were constructed for the Mediterranean. With their elongated hulls and low freeboard they would not have been able to survive a series of large swells in the Atlantic, let alone the rough weather encountered there. Galleys also need large crews -- at least two teams of rowers -- which means less space for water and supplies, which have to be replenished frequently -- hence one of the reasons Mediterranean vessels tried to stay within reach of shore. They needed to make landfall for the night -- for safety and for food and water. Caesar and Claudius had numerous problems in the English Channel. The later Medieval cogs and carracks could traverse the Bay of Biscay only during calm weather. The Templars and their alleged fleet of galleys might have made Scotland, but they wouldn't have made it across the Atlantic, even if the galleys were large xebecs. As for Minoans and Egyptians... their vessels seem not to have been even as seaworthy as those of the Greeks. I know very little about Phoenician ships, so I shouldn't comment, but I doubt these would have been any more efficient. Ships in the reported circumnavigations of Africa by Phoenicians/Carthaginians would have hugged the coastline.

Perhaps you could investigate this aspect of the Atlantic crossings in your blog? I don't believe I have ever seen it raised elsewhere.

Good luck with Home Depot.

Coridan Miller
9/22/2013 02:03:50 pm

Greece to Peru by way of Nova Scotia. Hell of a trip. It took Odysseus twenty years to get from Anatolia to Greece, by myth standards Jason woukda been out there for millenia.

Jason Colavito link
9/22/2013 02:15:55 pm

Cordian--No wonder Pherecydes said Medea had to put Jason (rather than his father) in a cauldron and boil him to "rejuvenate" him!

Kealen
3/14/2015 07:14:41 pm

It is just a theory, can you prove them wrong? you sound rather arrogant my friend. Unlikely based on our current knowledge yes but only an arrogant ego maniac can dismiss it entirely, any true scholar admits that there is just so much we don't know yet. In your infinite wisdom oh wise one tell us who built the mysterious cave cities in Turkey? scholars don't know but you seem to know everything.....

spookyparadigm
9/22/2013 02:43:19 pm

Tulan, or Tollan as it is usually spelled when talking about it as a general concept, is a place of fertility and creation (Sustenance Mountain emerges out of the reedy marshes). It is used to refer to a great holy and powerful city where others might travel, including for purposes of royal legitimation. The Tollan of the first millennium was clearly Teotihuacan, and indeed there are some Maya texts which refer to Teotihuacanos as ah puhob, men of the reeds. This isn't because Teotihuacan is particularly marshy, but because it is the center of civilization. The supposed later Toltec capital of Tula (I am skeptical of the concept of Toltecs, but that's way to involved to get into here) would be another Tollan, as would Tenochtitlan when it was the great power of Mesoamerica in the fifteenth century until the Spanish invasion.

As for the color issue, I don't have time to review the various copies of the Popol Vuh I have here, and I am not an expert on the later bits that detail the K'iche' history (I teach the Creation and the Hero Twins as a case study in interpreting iconography, but not the more detailed later stuff), but color was commonly used to mark communities and not having anything to do with phenotype or race (the Tedlock Popul Vuh index mentions Black House people, I presume this is what is being referred to). Beyond this, color symbolized directions in Mesoamerica. Red the East, Black the West (direction of the Underworld as the Sun passed into it), Yellow the South, and White the North.

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The Other J.
9/23/2013 08:36:59 pm

As soon as I red the color significance, it made me think of Native American color symbolism, and I wondered if it was consistent from North America into Mesoamerica.

Apparently so.

You said: "Beyond this, color symbolized directions in Mesoamerica. Red the East, Black the West (direction of the Underworld as the Sun passed into it), Yellow the South, and White the North."

For the Ojibwe, who were a fair distance away, they have it as Yellow in the East, Black in the West, Red in the South, and White in the North. East/Yellow and South/Red are just swapped in Mesoamerica, where it's East/Red and South/Yellow.

I guess I'm a little surprised at the consistency across the cultures, but I really shouldn't be. My question, though: Are the colors that consistent across all the native cultures in North America and Mesoamerica? And does that persist into South America? I know colors can represent more than just the directions/locations -- for the Ojibwe again, North also represents Winter, Night, Fire, and Old Age. Is that sort of thing also consistent across cultures that wouldn't have had that much contact aside from similar migratory origin points into the Americas?

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spookyparadigm
9/24/2013 03:24:09 pm

I don't think it is, but I honestly don't know off the top of my head. But you do find broad strands of memes and tropes across big areas in the New World, just as in the old. A number of Native American spirit ideas are spread a lot farther than one would expect, and there are some ties to Mesoamerica (which given that corn came up from Mexico and dramatically changed social structure in North America, isn't a big surprise). Remember also that there was regular trade between Mexico and the SW, apparently quite a bit of cacao was consumed in New Mexico.

South America is kind of a different thing though, there aren't a lot of similarities, with the exception of West Mexico. The Tarascan region of western Mexico has an isolated language, metal tools very early on, shaft tombs, and unusual for Mesoamerica square clothing for men. These are all things found in the Andes, and currents would take people from Ecuador to western Mexico fairly easily. When the Spaniards get there, there are large trade rafts that make the run. So this seems a likely candidate for inter-continental trade and travel in the Americas. Yet there aren't any serious cultural parallels between the rest of Mesoamerica and the Andes, though Mesoamerica does eventually adopt metal working on a limited scale as it moves through Central America, and corn spreads early into South America.

One fascinating difference are the constellations. The Maya constellations work in a way we're fairly familiar with, drawn around stars (Orion's belt is instead the three stones of creation on a turtle's back, Scorpion is in fact the same constellation as in Eurasia). But amongst the Inka at least, the constellations weren't the stars, but the dark spots between them.

Kealen
3/14/2015 07:19:39 pm

If there was a crossing to the Americas it was Africa to Brazil not the North Atlantic which would make Bolivia more likely than Mexico and if the ships were so weak how did they withstand ramming another ship

Brendan
9/22/2013 03:25:23 pm

Erik G, I'd just like to point out that Frederick J. Pohl is not the same person as the recently late, lamented SF author Frederik Pohl. I had to look that up because, like you, I could not believe him capable of such illogical thought.

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Erik G
9/22/2013 10:50:08 pm

Brendan -- Thank you. What a relief! I should have checked first -- I made an assumption that there couldn't have been two Frederick Pohls. Shoddy. No excuses. "Day Million" is one of my favorite SF tales. For a while there it felt tainted. No more. Thank you again.

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Elian Gonzalez
9/22/2013 03:55:50 pm

Wait until the author shows you all that Scylla and Charybdis is actually a portal. A wormhole to the other side of the world! Hmm, maybe I should write a book...

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Daniel N
9/28/2013 05:30:30 am

Actually, Jason. The stereotype that Native Americans have sparse body hair is NOT from a Nazi cowboy novelist (whom Hitler liked). It's from physical anthropology. (You need to be honest about that.) And you weren't. You acted like it was some crazy, lame-brained statement by a clown. In reality, physical anthropologists have written about "sparse Asian facial hair" for quite some time. Native Americans came from the Lake Baikal region of Siberia, so their body chemistry and body hair patterns are actually quite unambiguously Asiatic. (For instance, like Asians, Native Americans have powdery ear-wax, shovel-shaped incisors and Mongol spots as babies.) Their facial hair patterns are also quite Asiatic. Look at this tribe of Native Americans (none of whom shaved): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Native_American_Chiefs_1865.jpg

Notice something about their lack of facial hair?

Hairiness was extremely rare among Native Americans (for the reason that it's extremely rare among Asians). Back in Asia, Malaysian types actually evolved a hirsute profile. (For instance, the odd, anomalous Ainu of Japan, known for their beards, pre-date the Yayoi expansion into Japan, and are related to Malay groups up and down the coast of Asia). Malays--unlike most Asians--can actually get quite hairy. Groups that diverged from the Malays (like South Sea Islanders) can actually grow beards.

We now know from skulls and DNA that South Sea Island groups did in fact make it to the Americas, which accounts for anomalous groups of "bearded Indians".

But these groups were much farther south into Central and South America.

North American Indians didn't have Malay hairiness, since they derive from straight up Siberian tribes in the Lake Baikal region.

So, while you can occasionally dig up a bearded aboriginal type in South America, such types were unknown in North America. And it's why one of the chief characteristics that the Aztecs clung to in describing Europeans was their beards. Caucasoid levels of hairiness were extremely strange to them.

Remember: One of the reasons the Spaniards prevailed was technology. Their suits of armor were extremely strange to the Aztecs because they didn't have metal-working technology. No metal-working = no razor blades. No razor blades = no shaving.

Yet every pre-Columbian pic or painting of North American aboriginal types demonstrates quite unambiguously that they had extremely sparse facial hair: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Aztec5figure9.jpg

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Jason Colavito link
9/28/2013 05:50:32 am

Undoubtedly some Native Americans had less facial hair than Europeans, but that does not perforce mean that all did across time and space. Ely S. Parker, a Seneca born to two Seneca parents, had quite full facial hair, and he wore it in a mustache and a beard.

The information about Karl May came from a Native American publication, and it's possible that it is not correct; May of course did not invent all of the details in his books but instead popularized ideas that he read about in news accounts and nonfiction studies. The anthropological observation of sparse facial hair became a European stereotype of no Indian facial hair due to May's popularizing efforts.

To your last point: iron isn't needed for shaving; rocks like obsidian make fine blades. But anthropology, which you cited, also tells us that Native Americans used tweezers to pluck facial hair.

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Daniel N
9/28/2013 06:38:39 am

Jason, no. I wasn't citing anthropology. I was citing "PHYSICAL anthropology". That's the field that concerns itself with population groups and their differences vis-a-vis skeletal morphology, DNA, hirsutism, etc.

According to physical anthropology, there are very distinct characteristics that we see arise in Asian populations. On the Wikipedia page for "Mongoloid," they cite Rodney P.R. Dawber of the Oxford Hair Foundation and Clinical Lecturer in Dermatology, who says Mongoloid males have "little or no facial or body hair".

Professor of anthropology, Akazawa Takeru of the International Research Center for Japanese Studies, Kyoto, theorizes that Mongoloids evolved hairlessness to keep clean while wearing heavy garments for months without bathing during the Ice Age. [Takeru Akazawa and Emóke J.E. Sathmåry. Prehistoric Mongoloid dispersals. New York, Oxford University Press, 1996.]

In recent studies of deodorant--which took into account international population groups--they observed the fact that Asians rarely used underarm deodorant because, being far less hairy, they don't produce the stench that Westerners do (due to the fact that bacteria proliferates in hair.) Hairless populations, in other words, stink less.

Here's a quote: " In some places, like northeast Asia, deodorant use is far less common, reportedly as low as 7 percent. The researchers explain that this may be because less than 1 percent of the northeast Asian population has the smelly armpit genotype -- there just isn't much need for this aspect of personal hygiene." [Source: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/01/study-some-people-have-armpits-that-never-smell-most-still-use-deodorant/267263/]

Europeans were not only marked out for their hairiness by Native Americans, but also for their distinctive garlicky body funk [which Asians don't have].

By the way, Asians benefit from two traits which keep them from being as smelly as Westerners: sparser body hair, and the absence of a particular type of gland associated with body funk. Here's an article on it: http://www.naturalheightgrowth.com/2013/02/17/body-hack-xx-most-east-asian-people-dont-need-deodorant-due-to-their-earwax-forming-gene/

In any case, yes: Native Americans retained most of their Asiatic traits (from the time before they crossed over the Siberian landbridge). As I cited before, they have powdery earwax, shovel-shaped incisors, Asian femur-to-height ratios, Mongol spots as babies, and yes: sparse body hair.

Caucasoids, in studies, are by far the hairiest population group, with Iranians, Greeks and Spaniards being the top three furriest nations on Earth.

So when Spaniards first encountered Aztecs, yes: The two groups were quite different, hair-wise. It was like Tom Selleck running into Mr. Clean.

* Footnote: Another interesting connection between Asia and the Americas is a recessive gene which, ironically, turns individuals into wolf-people. The condition is called Hypertrichosis. It's found in China and Mexico (among Amerindian populations). Larry Gomez, a Mexican, has it. As well as Xie Qiuping, in China. Europeans and Africans do not have this recessive gene. Only Asian populations. So, ironically, though statistically the most hairless population group, Asians can occasionally produce wolf-people with this bizarre mutation. Needless to say, it's extremely rare, though.

Jason Colavito link
9/28/2013 06:46:37 am

You realize that anthropology has several divisions, including biological (physical) anthropology, cultural anthropology, archaeology, etc.

I'm not sure what your point is. Asians can and do have beards; Chinese beards were once quite famous. Old pictures of native Siberians show a range of hair traits, from hairless to mustaches to beards. A tendency toward less body hair in a broad population does not imply that no one is capable of growing facial hair at all within that population. Given that you yourself admit that it is not impossible for there to be Native people who had beards, and therefore a mention of a beard does not prove European contact, I don't see what you're arguing about.

Daniel N
9/28/2013 07:57:15 am

Jason,
You're confusing two different issues. I have no problem with 99% of your article. Nor do I take issue with your assertion that "mention of beards does not imply contact with Europeans".
My comment was of slightly smaller scope: namely, that--on average--the other guy was right. Native Americans (as a subset of the Asian population group) are characterized by less body hair and sparse-to-nonexistent facial hair. You can actually Google old photos of Native Americans. 99% of them will not have any facial hair whatsoever, and the ones who do manage to grow some typically have scraggly Fu-manchu style mustaches.

Very Asiatic in character.

You don't see Aztec portrayals of themselves with massive underarm hair or huge mats of chest-hair. Why? Because they had sparser body hair than Europeans.

It's not a big deal.

As for contact with Europeans, there's actually some pretty good evidence that it happened (just not within the time-frame that the other guy states). It wouldn't have been Greeks, it would have been Basques. And it would have happened in the paleolithic era. Not in modern recorded history. The head of the Smithsonian Institute actually believes that Basques made it to the Americas first. Why? Three things: 1) The oldest sites in North America are NOT on the West Coast (where the Siberian landbridge was), but on the East Coast. 2) Arrow heads and other artifacts in these sites do not match up with artifacts in Siberia. But they're identical to objects found in Spain and France. 3) Haplogroup X. It's a DNA haplogroup that's found on the Atloantic Coast of Europe, among Basques, but NOT found in Siberia or North Asia.

According to the DNA and archaeological evidence, it looks like small bands of paleo-Euripids made it to the Americas. But then they were essentially bred out by later (and much larger waves) of Asiatic groups from Siberia.

So do *I* personally think that Europeans and Amerindians met before Columbus? According to the available evidence, yes: I think it's the most likely explanation. But do I believe it happened during the Greek or Phoenician time-period?

I think you've adduced some excellent evidence for why that's unlikely.

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Jason Colavito link
9/28/2013 08:00:43 am

Two things: The Olmec depicted many of their people with beards, but in circular reasoning because we "know" they didn't have beards, alternative writers say these depictions are therefore not the Olmec because they "never" showed themselves with beards!

Also: Dennis Sanford's Solutrean hypothesis is very not terribly strong. I wrote about it for Skeptic back in, I think, 2006, and you can read the article in my "Articles" section under "Who Really Discovered America."

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alanborky
9/28/2013 05:52:10 pm

Jason I've spent god knows how many hours try'n'o track down images of these bastardin' alleged pineapples/pinecones just so I can judge the buggers for meself as an artist then finally when I find the bleeders on Epoch Times then on rogueclassicism I get back in triumph only to find you'd provided a link to rogueclassicism anyway!

Me own take?

They're never in a million years pinecones and I speak not just as an artist who had to draw billions of the buggers in art classes as a Scouse schoolboy as well as the odd pineapple but also as someone who spent several years doing tree growing experiments which started off as growing bonsais and sort of took on a life of their own as well as a former worker fruit farm worker and various fruit canning and packing type jobs on a variety of occasions [it's not science but it does give y'u a feel for stuff y'can't get from books].

Whilst pinecones and pineapples might appear similar and here I'm skipping the differences in scale the most important difference is pinecones tend to grow down towards the ground from trees to which they're attached by this sort of thin stalky tubey peduncle thingy [the main exceptions known to me at least being some South American ones and even they're up in the trees or bushes].

Pineapples on the other hand grow from the ground up makin' 'em kind of upside down versions of pinecones.

The other diff'rence's pineapples as they grow upwards produce out their tops further plant growth often profuse sprays of leaves etc whereas pinecones're end o' the line products with no further plant growth beyond or from them until they eventually open out and unleash their seeds.

Based on that an' unless anyone else has superior experience or knowledge to contradict me them Pompeii images almost certainly ain't pinecones especially given their food contexts [though if anyone knows of pinecones which grow in the opposite direction to normal or/and product luxuriant upper/lower growth it might then be the case they're some sort of decoration].

Y'dead right about how quickly pineapples go off so fresh pineapples from South America ain't on but let's say hypothetic'ly there was some secret highly protected trade route [which's been lost to history precisely because it was so hugely lucrative] then it's an int'resting fact the Romans seem to've possessed precisely the level of hothouse technology necessary to've grown pineapples in secret locations plus a powerful elite ostentatiously wealthy enough to pay through the nose for 'em.

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Jason Colavito link
9/28/2013 11:45:08 pm

Which type of pine cone are you thinking of? They certainly don't look alike. Sure, the pictures don't look like American pine cones from your standard pine or fir. But have you looked at Pinus pinea, the common type of pine cone in the Pompeii area? They're a very good match for Roman and Greek art.

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Peter Wadhams
9/29/2013 04:41:53 am

The examples quoted by the author may be invalid, but there is a perfectly valid mechanism by which Old World - New World links could have occurred. The Phoenicians were the finest navigators of the era 300-600BC and wherever they went (eg Sardinia) they built characteristic harbours on spits of land which permitted docking whatever the state of the wind. Such a harbour has been found on the Azores. From the Azores it is an easy short voyage to central America with favourable winds and currents - but very hard to get back. It is very likely that the Phoenicians were the "bearded white gods" encountered by native American civilisations, who left promising to return. But they never made it back to Europe to bring news.

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Jason Colavito link
9/29/2013 05:42:56 am

There is no known ancient harbor in the Azores. The Azores were only discovered in the 1400s, and there is no evidence of Phoenicians in the Azores. The Native Americans cannot be shown to have had "bearded white god" myths until the Spanish invented them in the 1500s and 1600s.

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Aristofilos
10/17/2016 02:55:49 am

Long before the Phoenicians wich was also greek tribe (look the Hellenic mythological family tree ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegyptus ,the Athenians went to America ,and also to Atlantis at least 11.000 years before today ....... according the Egyptian priest ,Manetho !

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Aristofilos
10/17/2016 03:03:37 am

< which was > Sorry , i'm not so good in english ,i'm self - learning man ....

michael kallergis
1/16/2014 12:04:48 pm

Hallo jason its a lot of intersting things in your article but as always the truth have two options or more probably with the knowledge that we have we cant understand lot of things for the ancient civilizations but to exchange thoughts its a good step .My opinion its it may it happens a trip to south america from Mediterranean but of course to prove that its the difficult part for sure the ancients greeks knew about the oceans and of course they give the names that we still use and in our times .Scotland in greeks mean the land of darkness and in the museum of mykines they have found things from there from 2500 bc .so I bellieve cause of the human thirst of knowledge and adventure maybe some sailors traders they ve tried to reach something else and difficult as the subject that we discuss in your blog .r.Regards Michael .I want to apologise for my English probably its not perfect but I am trying on it.

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Rumpelstilskin
7/14/2014 01:31:37 am

Many books have been written, for example Henrietta Mertz has proven without a doubt that the Greeks had been in the New World, long before Columbus. There is ample archealogical evidence also, but due to the zionists everything is covered up, and presented as hogwash.............

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Aristofilos
10/17/2016 02:39:44 am


Rumpelstilskin ,im agree with you 100 % !!! Unfortunately only few people read the ancient greek text ,of Homer , Plutarch or Diogenes etc...which are referred travel of the Greeks in America, of course, with different name like .... the continent beyond the Pillars of Hercules,or Hesperia etc... !

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JustADude
8/12/2014 03:56:57 am

First sorry for the late comment, I came across the book by Russo, did a google search and this blog post came up.

I think that your presentation of the book's arguments is not fair, and I doubt that you've actually read the book that you're reviewing. I haven't read the book either but a 10 minute google search leads me to believe that there is more in the book that you presented.

From my cursory search it seems that the main argument of the book is mathematical. For example look at PTOLEMY’S LONGITUDES AND ERATOSTHENES’ MEASUREMENT OF THE EARTH’S CIRCUMFERENCE, MATHEMATICS AND MECHANICS OF COMPLEX SYSTEMS Vol. 1, No. 1, 2013, it can be located online. The basic argument is that Ptolemy linearly interpolated earlier geographical data getting wrong answers. After correcting Ptolemy's data the location that he supposed was the Canary Islands turns out to be the Lesser Antilles.

Lucio Russo is well known for his influential, and admittedly somewhat controversial book "The Forgotten Revolution". That book I've read and there are some exaggerated and not well supported arguments, but it is by no means the book of a crackpot.

I do agree that the argument is far fetched, but I would reserve judgement until I actually read the book.

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miki
9/19/2014 04:47:56 pm

Interesting I do believe that ancients were better at building ships and it was evident that the world was round. Just look at the statue of titan what shape is it?. Oldest 2nd cent B.C. Evidence that even at that time they knew the shape of the earth was round.

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JustADude
9/20/2014 03:12:21 am

The Greeks knew the Earth was round since the fifth century BCE. In the sixth century BCE, Anaximander an Ionian natural philosopher, was the first to suggest that the Earth is suspended in the void, and he thought that its shape was cylindrical. Later thinkers from the same "Presocratic" tradition, demonstrated it was spherical. In the "classical" period, in the works of Aristotle it is clearly stated that the Earth is round, and evidence is presented: for example that we first see the mast of an approaching ship, and that the shadow the Earth casts on the moon (what causes the "phases of the moon") is always circular. So by the time of Aristotle the Greeks already knew the shape of the Earth and presented evidence for it. By the Hellenistic period, in the third century BCE, Archimedes gave a "theoretical" explanation of the sphericity of Earth based on his "hydrostatic laws".

Despite our host's statement there is no documentation, that any other people independently deduced that the Earth was round. The Chinese for example believed that the Earth is flat, well into the seventieth century CE.

Regarding ancient ship building, it's worth noting that Herodotus reports that Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa in the seventh century BCE (See http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodotus/hist01.htm). It's ironic that the detail of their story that Herodotus is skeptical about, is what confirms to the modern historians that their account was truthful. In any case, Russo suggests that Phoenicians, and their "descendants" the Carthaginians, were the ones that reached America. A people that has the technical know how to build ships to circumnavigate Africa, certainly has the know how to build ships that can reach the Antilles, say.

I've now read the book by Russo, and my original impression that our host has grossly misrepresented its contents was confirmed. I don't know how much Russo's arguments will hold but they are solid and based on statistical analysis of the mistakes on latitudes in Ptolemy's geography.

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John
11/19/2014 11:13:26 am

It is impossible that it took Odysseus so many years to return to his homeland. on the island of Ithaki. There is this theory: After Troy he sailed to Giblartar and his fleet crossed the Atlantic. That is why it took him 20 years to return home. How do you explain the plethora of Male Ancient Greek names throughout Central America? Also the Amazones in Greek Mytholohy, the name originating from the Amazon river in South America.

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Aristofilos
7/26/2015 11:32:43 pm

Greek mythology ,and many ancient text ,speaks about America ! in the ancient greek text referring about how the greeks they were in America and that every 10 years they chancing the residens settlers men with new arrivals ! Even Hercules was there ,for several times .... (there was many Hercules) even in the mythology, Hercules went to America The Eleventh Labor: the (Golden Apples of the Hesperides) = orange from America !! Hesperia meens east ,where the sun goes down !
Diogenes the cynic has been reported about America when he spoke to great Alexander ,and explain to him how can be useful to his people ,he sad to him ....even you conquer the continent which is out of the Hercules pillars and you are not good to your man ,you can't be useful ....
ect ....ect ......




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Carlo Marchiori
10/16/2016 06:55:12 pm

I think that Lucio Russo hypothesis that you relegate to the last lines is very convincing, I think you should try to read it more carefully.

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Aristofilos
10/17/2016 01:55:43 am

is nothing by chance ......https://www.google.gr/search?q=palacio+delas+grecas+picture&biw=1138&bih=608&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj04NqTk-HPAhXJVRQKHazNDvMQsAQIGQ

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Carlo Marchiori
10/17/2016 03:37:22 am

If anybody wants to read through Russo arguments https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01275282/document

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aristofilos
8/16/2017 01:43:40 pm

Hi NICK ! There is no such thing indoeuropean tribes or language ! Yes its maybe have similarity in the indian language with the greek but no indians came to greece ever ,exept the gypsys ,but thousand years later ! The indian myths speaking about the longbearded gods from west ! Contrary the greek mythology reffers about god Dionysus and Panas how they went east until india many times . Even the Triptolemus teach the art of agriculture and, from him, the rest of the world learned to plant and reap crops ! Also in Plato's book Timaeus ,the Egyptian priest said to Solon that the city of Athens estabilsed by goddess Athena 11600 years ago ,long before the Indian cities ... (see from paragraph 21'a until 25'e )

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aristofilos
8/16/2017 01:59:05 pm

Also Nick ,if the greek language came from the indian language ,then Marcus Tillus Cicero wouldn't wrote that «TOTUM GRAECORUM EST» = everything comes from the greeks ! also « DEORUM LINGUA EST LINGUA GRAECORUM » = the language of the Gods,are the greek language

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aristofilos
8/16/2017 03:10:49 pm

When i wrote gods and goddesses,i mean prehistorian scientists !!!

Karanti Maria
2/3/2018 04:36:58 am

There exists proof that Ancient Greeks discovered America.

References
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5345049/Did-ancient-Greeks-sail-Canada.html
https://www.hakaimagazine.com/news/did-ancient-greeks-sail-to-canada/
http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/Ancient-Greeks-influence-America.html
http://ancientamerica.com/anomalous-dna-in-the-cherokee/
https://www.theepochtimes.com/geneticist-traces-mysterious-origins-of-native-americans-to-middle-east-ancient-greece_831180.html
http://www.nature.com/news/americas-natives-have-european-roots-1.14213

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          • W. Scott-Elliot >
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      • Extreme History >
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        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Remarkable Discoveries Within the Sphinx (Hoax)
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • The Shaver Mystery >
          • Lovecraft and the Deros
          • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
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        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
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        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
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        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
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        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
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        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
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      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • The Fall of the Sky
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
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      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
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      • Defining a Zombie
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      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
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      • Lot No. 249
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      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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