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Joe Nickell: Knee-Jerk Debunkers Are Stealing My TV Time!

4/19/2014

32 Comments

 
If you’re at all interested in paranormal and historical mysteries, you almost certainly know the work of Joe Nickell, the resident investigator at the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry and one of the most frequent correspondents for Skeptical Inquirer and Skeptical Briefs. On his blog last week, Nickell related his experience with a television producer who had asked him to appear on TV to investigate an unnamed fringe mystery. According to Nickell, the producer complained that another skeptic he had contacted by phone was too negative and dismissive.
He said that as he would bring up a new topic, the skeptic would sigh loudly and then launch into a diatribe about why the subject was too silly for words. In fact, he said, the skeptic did not seem to have much to offer on the various topics and cases. Consequently, of course, the person was not being invited to appear on any of the shows.
Just to make clear: I am not the skeptic in question. Although I have spoken with TV producers, I’ve never sighed into the phone, nor have I ever told a producer a subject was too silly for words. However, as we shall see, Nickell (perhaps unintentionally) seems to assume that television is the highest form of celebrity and therefore the producer’s erstwhile interviewee failed at some level by refusing to flatter the producer’s interest in fringe topics.

I disagree with this on many levels. Without more specific details about who was interviewed and why I am of course limited in my comments, but in my experience I’ve found that TV producers are singularly uninformed on many levels. Each time I’ve had one contact me, that producer had no idea who I am or what areas I consider myself competent to discuss. To wit: The first time a TV producer ever contacted me it was to ask me to comment on a rash of sightings of flying pig men in central Mexico. Since I don’t typically cover modern material or cryptozoology, I had rather little to say about it, and I wasn’t afraid to say so. Similarly, I’ve had more than one producer call me under the impression that I am an ancient astronaut theorist.

But beyond this, I don’t consider being on TV a life goal, and I’m not afraid to tell producers that their ideas are unworthy of air time. My goal isn’t to appear on TV but to promote the truth, and therefore when one producer from a well-known cable channel wanted to present a conspiracy theory about the Smithsonian Institution and its alleged cover-up of the truth as though it had some foundation in fact, I felt no compunction about telling him that the story was a fraud and explaining exactly where it came from. To kill the segment is, in the end, more of a victory for truth than me appearing for 10 seconds to say no in a 20-minute segment that gives the impression of yes. It is entirely possible that the producer was describing a similarly-inclined skeptic who felt that participation in a show would only serve to legitimize whatever the unnamed fringe topic was. I know, for example, that Mike Heiser feels much like I do and is happy to tell producers no at the first sign that they plan to promote fringe material.
…it appears the skeptic has tired of certain subjects (if ever interested in them in the first place)—i.e., is suffering from skeptical burnout. This eventually happens to debunkers—not real investigators, who are willing endlessly to seek explanations for mysteries and use them to teach science and the scientific method.
Nickell’s logic is flawed in the above quotation, and it bothers me somewhat. He’s right that investigators have a passion for their subjects—heaven knows I’ve spent enough time endlessly reviewing ancient texts—but how many times are we supposed to repeat ourselves? I know Nickell doesn’t quite mean what he said, but once you’ve reached a conclusion supported by all the evidence, why should you want to “endlessly” repeat the same work to reach the same conclusions? Nickell seems to see each new claim as a new adventure, but he has conflated specific claims with general subjects and inadvertently created a straw man pseudo-debunker whose alleged activities he next outlines:
This brings me to the other issue, that the skeptic seemed to have little to offer about the topics the producer posed. Again, it is the investigator rather than the debunker who is apt to know something. Debunkers are quick to be dismissive, or to suggest (antecedent to inquiry) that a claim is a hoax or to offer one or more off-the-shelf explanations (usually based on some investigator’s work—certainly not the debunker’s).
Here again I think it behooves us to recall that TV producers aren’t gods to be appeased, and it isn’t clear at all that the skeptic necessarily had anything to say about the subject, as I did not when asked to discuss flying pig people. Some extra details might have helped for us to understand whether there really are people who simply stand athwart mysteries yelling “stop!” or whether this was the case of someone who was not an expert being asked to speak beyond his or her expertise.

The fact that the producer mentioned bringing up topic after topic suggests the latter, since no one can be an expert in every subject, nor can every skeptic afford to be a professional investigator with the time or the resources to gain expertise, as Nickell has, in ghosts, monsters, religious mysteries, forgery, demons, etc. It must be nice to get paid to do that full time, as Nickell is, but expertise takes time and if you have a full-time job, it’s hard to be an expert in more than one or two fringe areas if you hope to maintain that job.

I am, however, interested in Nickell’s notion that there are “debunkers” who are simply hangers-on to the work of the true heroes, the “investigators.” I do not doubt that there are such people (fringe history has enough of their mirror-images), but surely this theoretical distinction bears some further development; what, precisely, differentiates the investigator from the debunker? Nickell doesn’t say (the implication is that debunkers assume while investigators prove), but he offers one key indicator of his criteria in his last paragraph, where he explains how the debunker is trying to usurp Nickell’s rightful place on television, recalling one such individual who told him “I have as much right to be famous as you!”

So, if I read this correctly, Nickell is upset that other people are trying to steal his television time by describing the results of investigations he would like to receive on-air credit for originating.

Joe Nickell does great work, and his investigations are almost always enlightening and informative (I look forward to each new one), but in this blog post he shows a surprising lapse of investigative zeal in questioning the values and priorities of television—in fact, he takes TV to be a reflection of public interest rather than a medium through which such interest is created. In discussing the seemingly-permanent popularity of fringe claims, he says that “the number of cable TV shows devoted to such is living proof of that.” No, it isn’t. Cable TV shows program for a small but loyal audience for such topics (typically around one or two million viewers per show in a country of 315 million) and in so doing legitimize the topic and therefore create popularity through exposure, with the intent of capturing more market share. In communication theory, this is called agenda-setting, and it is one of the key concepts for understanding how mass communication works—a topic that appears in the media becomes the subject for discussion, and the media essentially create an audience for fringe material.

This can be best seen in Ancient Aliens, which surprised even the History Channel by resurrecting the ancient astronaut theory—which prior to the show’s launch had been virtually dead in mainstream media—through a canny combination of mystery-mongering and colorful personalities. Ancient astronaut beliefs track with media attention; the first peak came in the 1970s during the heyday of Chariots of the Gods and its ilk, but a lack of media attention in the 1980s drove belief in ancient aliens down; Ken Feder found about 1in 4 college students believed in ancient aliens in 1984, according to a survey—and college students are more likely than any other cohort to believe. However, a 2012 National Geographic poll found that 36% of respondents, which included all adults, not just college students, now suspect that aliens built ancient monuments like Stonehenge or the Great Pyramid. And where did they get these ideas? The mass media, including cable TV and the internet, are largely responsible because they—and only they—can reach audiences of millions, whereas lectures, newsletters, and small-press or self-published books reach only hundreds or at most thousands.

The point is that TV isn’t just the apotheosis of the investigator but also a highly influential tool that shapes the notion of what is and is not part of the public discourse. Sometimes saying “no” to television, or telling a producer that his or her mystery isn’t worth the air time, is the better choice, since even the heartiest of on-screen denials might unintentionally reinforce the idea that there is a true mystery worth investigating.

32 Comments
[jad]
4/19/2014 06:11:54 am

Jason, we both know that (A) you are charming and charismatic
(B) television either goes by a Jerry Springer or Brandon Tarticoff
set of rules and that (C) most mainstream or cable shows are less
researched than NOVA or SECRETs of THE DEAD. Some "nerds"
are not compelling, charismatic or lucid, even if they are not at all
Aspie. What "works" in print does not often pragmatically "work" in
the media environment of radio or television. GoTo "Understanding
Media by poor departed Marshall McLuhan!" I am now 100% logical!

Reply
[jad]
4/19/2014 06:18:35 am

Seriously, not everyone in ufology is as erudite
as is Stanton Friedman, he often is informative.
Many producers have a Jerry Springer envy and
would never bolt down their on-set chair etc at all.
I agree that the brainer brain!freezes of the Sci-Fi
community people over the past 150 years are being
paraded around as factoids, even when total fiction!!!

Reply
Pacal
4/19/2014 06:22:15 am

Read Nickell's original piece. It came across has a petulant whine.

Reply
[jad]
4/19/2014 06:26:34 am

i did. not everyone is media savvy.
sometimes we forget WHY mark
twain in his semi-literacy is a great
writer. we also are after p.t barnum.
complaining don't change much. if it
did, the "w" by march of 2oo1 would
have handed the job over to Al Gore
contritely as he apologizes for whut
baby brother JEB done did in Florida.

Reply
IMOHO by [jad]
4/19/2014 06:36:06 am

maybe i should reframe this question!

lets ask what Bill Nye did rather brilliantly

as in recently, as we wonder why Nickell's

is not being so quick on the uptake at all!

TV likes to pit people and ideas, even when

its staged and artificial. Steve Allen knew that.

His "meeting of minds" episodes are classics!!!

i knew that they were actors & actresses, indeed!

http://www.steveallen.com/television_pioneer/meeting_of_minds.htm

Oprah let Tom Cruise leap up onto her couch...
4/19/2014 06:23:31 am

Johnny Depp's new Sci-Fi flic is tanking at the box office as it
title wise gives a kudos of a nod to Emerson and all his friends.
Yes, secure the furniture, try to be polite, wear protective clothing
but please let there be a debate and not drivel or propaganda!!!
Science Fiction when well done does have a big cult following!

Reply
television = teleplayed structured zoo
4/19/2014 06:41:14 am

print media = standards



(jad)

Reply
Titus pullo
4/19/2014 08:18:59 am

I beg to differ. The NYT, LA Times, Wash Post, Phillt Inquireier, Atlantic Constitution stopped being fact based papers years ago to push a far left, statist, crony authoritarian multiculturalism. Heck the Guardian is a better paper, at least they are honest about their bent. And before you say what about the WSJ, even that paper now run by neocons and war mongers is a.shadow of what it was.

Reply
Walt
4/19/2014 08:39:08 am

Unfortunately, the decline in media standards has been across the board. The choice for newspapers and TV stations is to pander to what people want, or go out of business. I even have trouble seeing a weather forecast on The Weather Channel.

Pacal
4/20/2014 04:50:17 am

You know it is hard to take seriously a comment that describes the NYT etc., has "far left". Thank you for uttering a familiar bit of PC bile from the loony right.

Walt
4/19/2014 07:24:10 am

First, "country of 315 million", not county.

Arguing over whether media content is reflective of society or solely the result of agenda-setting is like arguing about the chicken and the egg. People need to be interested in your agenda beforehand or no one will see it. No show would ever be cancelled if it were simply a case of agenda-setting. The fact that they don't have a 100% success rate pretty much destroys that theory.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
4/19/2014 07:59:37 am

I fixed the typo.

The question isn't whether the media have a 100% success rate but whether repeated exposure to topics via media legitimizes them in the public mind, or if they would remain illegitimate or stigmatized if they were not on TV.

Reply
KIF
4/19/2014 07:56:44 am

The most interesting thing Nickell ever did was to demonstrate how the image was put on the shroud, he replicated the method unquestionably on a documentary, and yet this is not common knowledge

Reply
Varika
4/19/2014 02:58:02 pm

He did not. He demonstrated a method by which the shroud COULD HAVE been formed. Like the voyage of the Kon-tiki and various methods of making pyramids and moving Stonehenge-sized stones, it's not proof of how it WAS done. Sorry, but I'm a bit persnickety about that. Comes of watching a lot of Investigation Discovery.

Reply
KIF
4/19/2014 11:24:49 pm

Oh yes he did, Nickell demonstrated how the image on the Turin Shroud was produced. Something else the documentary let folks know about was that in order for the image on the Turin Shroud to be the way it was the person had to be literally FLAT AS A PANCAKE - the image of the figure on the Turin Shroud is not of a 3 dimensional human being because it showed no wrap-around effects - for the Turin Shroud to be genuine the image needs to be distorted. WOW -- STURP avoids taking this simple fact into consideration

Varika
4/22/2014 03:12:33 pm

No, sorry, KIF, you're still wrong. I've seen that documentary. There is no definitive proof that his method is THE method that was actually used. I have seen at least two other method demonstrations that are just as plausible--and no, I'm not talking about "Divine light burned it into the shroud." I'm talking about other mundane methods of producing the same image that would produce similar modern testing results.

When Nickell produces documentation from the artist who created it, THEN he can definitively say "this is precisely how it was made." Until then, it will remain nothing but a "could have been made this way."

JAD
4/19/2014 07:57:51 am

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE PUT ME BACK IN MY RUBBER ROOM

Reply
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4/19/2014 08:11:21 am

luv... your attempt at vintage Rolling Stone 1970s gonzo is pathetic

Reply
only KIF or B L has MY permission to do a "drive-by" thusly
4/19/2014 08:14:17 am

now i really know how Rev. Phil feels...

Titus pullo
4/19/2014 08:25:57 am

We got free hbo this week. I found myself switching between Hanger one and the movie Battleship. I found Battleship more plausible. Seriously, when hanger one started to talk about the nazi bell and then said Iran captured a ufo in 2004, and reversed engineered it so they could bring down a US drone, it really was too much even for that show. If your a rational person, aka skeptic according to the History channel, why go on to get your. 5 seconds of saying their is no proof. A tub pic is dependent on an enlightened public, sorry to say that is not what we have today.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
4/19/2014 08:28:59 am

Even ufologists seem to find Hangar 1 embarrassing.

Reply
Mark E.
4/19/2014 10:19:35 am

I couldn't get past the story about giant urinals for aliens being kept a DIA.

Reply
Rowena Fibbs
4/20/2014 01:02:45 am

IMO - the problem isn't necessarily speaking to the producers or giving interviews. The problem is that some producers of these types of programs will twist the truth to promote their predetermined end. We know it's happened on AU, AA and other documentaries. It's no longer an equal conversation. While there is a part of me that still hopes someone will create a program that debunks (apparently this is a bad word now? Just a step above an ancient a astronaut theorist?) I don't hold out much hope for this to ever happen. The networks which promote this tripe don't care because they are getting the ratings they want and selling the air time. I don't blame experts for not wanting to participate in this exercise in futility. They are lambs being led to slaughter.

Reply
Dave Lewis
4/20/2014 06:46:27 am

I frequently listen to Coast to Coast AM. I don't believe most of what I hear on that show. I enjoy hearing about urban legends.

For the folks that appear on the show debunker refers to a person who automatically disbelieves any fringe topic he hears and is very vocal about it. The term skeptic is somewhat less negative to these folks.

Reply
KIF
4/20/2014 09:31:49 am

Nothing wrong with the word debunker - bunk is there to be debunked

Urban Dictionary: bunk

slang; meaning wack or extremely strange; For some thing to be bunk it must make you want to cry laugh hysterically

Harry
4/20/2014 01:19:22 am

Does anyone else here appreciate the irony of a skeptical investigator just accepting the word of a TV producer about what some other "unnamed" skeptic told him, and dismissing the skeptic out of hand for dismissing a fringe topic out of hand?

Now, I admit that Nickell might know the producer well enough to trust his account; that the producer might have given sufficient details of what the other skeptic said and did not say to make it clear that Nickell's complaint is valid in that particular case; and that Nickell might have sufficient experience with armchair debunkers to give credence to the producer's claim. In fact, it is possible that Nickell doesn't really care whether the producer's account is accurate, because he is using this story as a touchstone for addressing a preexisting concern he has about people he views as irresponsible debunkers.

But I can only go on the little Nickell says about his conversation with the producer. Even if the latter was being honest, he might well have remembered his prior conversation from a distorted perspective. For instance, perhaps the prior skeptic did not "seem to have much to offer" because the skeptic's attitude was so off-putting that the producer kept changing topics before the skeptic had an opportunity to explain in more detail. Perhaps the producer failed to ask questions about specific "cases" that would have elicited more detail. Perhaps the skeptic did not know enough about the cases the producer or the points the producer about them the producer raised to offer an informed opinion, but was, in fact, willing to discuss them after more research (in other words, perhaps he did not always launch into a diatribe in response to every question). Perhaps the skeptic had a lot to offer, but just not what the producer wanted to hear or the way he wanted to hear it.

Let me give a concrete example: James Randi is a skeptic who does a lot of investigating and is happy to discuss his findings, but he is a militant atheist and has expressed a lack of interest in theoretical discussions of paranormal phenomenon that, as far as he is concerned, no one has proven exist. If the producer brings up religion or quantum mechanics, I could well imagine Randi sighing and launching into a diatribe much as Nickell describes.

Reply
Harry
4/20/2014 06:35:26 am

Sorry for the duplicative postings. The computer kept telling me that it did not post. It was only after I refreshed after the third time that I saw it worked every time.

Reply
Harry
4/20/2014 01:19:47 am

Does anyone else here appreciate the irony of a skeptical investigator just accepting the word of a TV producer about what some other "unnamed" skeptic told him, and dismissing the skeptic out of hand for dismissing a fringe topic out of hand?

Now, I admit that Nickell might know the producer well enough to trust his account; that the producer might have given sufficient details of what the other skeptic said and did not say to make it clear that Nickell's complaint is valid in that particular case; and that Nickell might have sufficient experience with armchair debunkers to give credence to the producer's claim. In fact, it is possible that Nickell doesn't really care whether the producer's account is accurate, because he is using this story as a touchstone for addressing a preexisting concern he has about people he views as irresponsible debunkers.

But I can only go on the little Nickell says about his conversation with the producer. Even if the latter was being honest, he might well have remembered his prior conversation from a distorted perspective. For instance, perhaps the prior skeptic did not "seem to have much to offer" because the skeptic's attitude was so off-putting that the producer kept changing topics before the skeptic had an opportunity to explain in more detail. Perhaps the producer failed to ask questions about specific "cases" that would have elicited more detail. Perhaps the skeptic did not know enough about the cases the producer or the points the producer about them the producer raised to offer an informed opinion, but was, in fact, willing to discuss them after more research (in other words, perhaps he did not always launch into a diatribe in response to every question). Perhaps the skeptic had a lot to offer, but just not what the producer wanted to hear or the way he wanted to hear it.

Let me give a concrete example: James Randi is a skeptic who does a lot of investigating and is happy to discuss his findings, but he is a militant atheist and has expressed a lack of interest in theoretical discussions of paranormal phenomenon that, as far as he is concerned, no one has proven exist. If the producer brings up religion or quantum mechanics, I could well imagine Randi sighing and launching into a diatribe much as Nickell describes.

Reply
Harry
4/20/2014 06:30:11 am

Does anyone else here appreciate the irony of a skeptical investigator just accepting the word of a TV producer about what some other "unnamed" skeptic told him, and dismissing the skeptic out of hand for dismissing a fringe topic out of hand?

Now, I admit that Nickell might know the producer well enough to trust his account; that the producer might have given sufficient details of what the other skeptic said and did not say to make it clear that Nickell's complaint is valid in that particular case; and that Nickell might have sufficient experience with armchair debunkers to give credence to the producer's claim. In fact, it is possible that Nickell doesn't really care whether the producer's account is accurate, because he is using this story as a touchstone for addressing a preexisting concern he has about people he views as irresponsible debunkers.

But I can only go on the little Nickell says about his conversation with the producer. Even if the latter was being honest, he might well have remembered his prior conversation from a distorted perspective. For instance, perhaps the prior skeptic did not "seem to have much to offer" because the skeptic's attitude was so off-putting that the producer kept changing topics before the skeptic had an opportunity to explain in more detail. Perhaps the producer failed to ask questions about specific "cases" that would have elicited more detail. Perhaps the skeptic did not know enough about the cases the producer or the points the producer about them the producer raised to offer an informed opinion, but was, in fact, willing to discuss them after more research (in other words, perhaps he did not always launch into a diatribe in response to every question). Perhaps the skeptic had a lot to offer, but just not what the producer wanted to hear or the way he wanted to hear it.

Let me give a concrete example: James Randi is a skeptic who does a lot of investigating and is happy to discuss his findings, but he is a militant atheist and has expressed a lack of interest in theoretical discussions of paranormal phenomenon that, as far as he is concerned, no one has proven exist. If the producer brings up religion or quantum mechanics, I could well imagine Randi sighing and launching into a diatribe much as Nickell describes.

Reply
i agree... [jad]
4/20/2014 11:20:20 am

i've posted in triplicate too.
been there, done that. even
so, it adds to the charm of
this lil ole blog. Randi acts like
nearly all M.I.T graduates... yes!

Reply
Mark L
4/21/2014 11:49:45 pm

I saw the article and had the same exact response, Jason (and left a comment on his original posting). It's such a strange thing to write - he reminds me of rich people who idly wonder why everyone isn't eating lobster. Because we can't afford it!

Nickell is asking his own supporters to keep their mouths shut and just let him deal with everything. Why should we? Why should we give credence to a theory which has been thoroughly pulled to pieces a thousand times? What do we gain by treating it as year zero for every single theory? Are we likely to change their minds if we do so?

Reply
Tobias Claren
3/15/2022 10:34:25 pm

One should not forget, CSI is a dubious sect.
Read e.g. the whistleblower text of the sociologist Marcello Truzzi.
Also in the German sect "GWUP" the sociologist Edgar Wunder has reported as a whistleblower from the swamp of stupidity and arrogance:
https://swprs-org.translate.goog/das-skeptiker-syndrom/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Being skeptical is OK, but being a self-proclaimed "skeptic" is a mental disorder.
The press spokesman and blog leader of the GWUP cult, Bernd Harder is rabble-rousing on Twitter.
A person who is responsible for the public reputation of an association behaves like a schoolyard mobber. And is at the same time "political scientist".
When I thanked him for a stupid insult as good "doxing gold", he quickly deleted the tweet. He had noticed that I could harm the GWUP sect with the tweet.
I have a screenshot of course....

It is shocking how hateful people like Joe Nickell act, or the malicious James Randi acted.

Sects like CSI and GWUP are irrational radical-dogmatic science-denying materialistic quasi-religions.
Non-materialistic phenomena are completely excluded from the outset and radically opposed.
The circular "logic" behind it is "it's nonsense because it doesn't exist".
This is explained e.g. on debunkingskeptics.com.

A nice example is Ouija.
Technical essay about Ouija or glass bridging by MINT professor Dr. Eckhard Kruse:
https://www-bpv-ch.translate.goog/blog/ouija-von-prof-dr-eckhard-kruse/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
He absolutely excludes the "Idiomotoric effect" due to the character speed up to 1 character per second, and complexity of the texts over up to 2h with 2 persons.

And tape voices.
* Evidence for the reality of the "tape voices phenomenon", ITC experiment 1971:
https://www-vtf-de.translate.goog/p73_1.shtml?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Peter Hale (one of THE experts for shielding of his time) announced before the experiment "sure of victory" it must be about "radio influences".
After the experiment, he ruled out error, mistake and fraud, and declared that it was a real paranormal phenomenon.
Hans Luksch determined the identity of more than 5 murderers with this method.
This rules out pareidolia or coincidence. Especially since the recordings are so good that pareidolia would be questionable to excluded anyway.


"Skeptics" who exclude a non-materialistic phenomenon from the outset, disqualify themselves scientifically completely.
It is enough that a person does so even in a single case.
If, for example, Joe Nickell clearly rejects a paranormal phenomenon from the outset, this person should no longer be considered and referred to as an "expert".
It is frightening how producers let Joe Nickell and Co. recite their off-the-shelf explanations like "folies a deux" or "imagination".
And if that was not possible (in one video the drawbar of an old carriage in a museum moved quickly upwards), it must be fraud...
So Joe Nickell has also been called an "expert on the paranormal."
Which he clearly is not.
Also a very arrogant example, Mathew Thompson.
He comes across as a very dimwitted "expert".
In the same show, "Anjula Mutanda" waves her hands while giving the same "explanations".
Both confirm the image of "soft science" psychology.

For example, why doesn't Joe Nickell live 2, 3, 4? Weeks in a very intense haunted place?
E.g. the house in Hinsdale (NY) or Pontefract (UK).
That would be a very promising concept for a TV show.
Several "skeptics" live for a month in a haunted place and are watched 24/7 by cameras.

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