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Lost Continent of Atlantis Makes Triumphant Media Tour

3/21/2015

102 Comments

 
The lost continent of Atlantis returned to the news this week with a series of articles in major media outlets claiming that the legendary city had been found, thanks to a new book from author Mark Adams called Meet Me in Atlantis in which the author investigates four hypotheses about where the fictional landmass may have been located. Adams, a travel writer, said that he first became interested in Atlantis as a child watching documentaries like In Search Of…, which sparked an interest in the unusual and unexplained. And like all people influenced by fringe literature, Adams asserts that mainstream scientists and scholars refuse to take Atlantis research seriously: “The subject is like kryptonite for serious academics.”
Adams has a teaser for his book in tomorrow’s New York Times, available online now.

According to National Geographic, Adams is most interested in a new hypothesis advocated by a German man which claims that the lost city was located south of Casablanca in Morocco, which supposedly meets the requirement from Plato’s Critias that Atlantis have concentric circles of black and red stone surrounding it:
Michael Hübner and I walked across the desert and, sure enough, there was black and red striped stone. Then he took me to the edge of the Sahara desert, and walked me up the hillside. Lo and behold, there were these concentric circles on the edge of the desert, and just a few miles away was the Atlantic Ocean. He makes a really compelling case that Atlantis was located in Morocco, and that’s a relatively new theory. Not a lot of people have come up with his hypothesis.
In the Critias, Plato states that Atlantis’s walls were composed of different colored stones, not single stones of multiple colors: “One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out double docks, having roofs formed out of the native rock” (trans. Benjamin Jowett). Nevertheless, Hübner claims to have statistically correlated hundreds of details from Plato with facts about Morocco, though to make his hypothesis work he has to make several assumptions, particularly that the word “island” was used figuratively rather than literally, and that the people of Dark Age Greece were familiar with Morocco and could have labeled it “the island of Atlas” due to its remote location. These are unprovable assumptions, and no evidence of a Bronze Age civilization has been found in the target region. Hübner claims that the local Amazigh people (more properly Imazighen, better known as Berbers) refer to the region as an “island,” but he provides no source for the claim, using the passive voice to assert that “it is said.” He is on slightly stronger ground when noting that Arab geographers refer to the region between the Sahara and the Mediterranean as jazirat al maghrib, the “island of the West,” but this is a figurative term not attested in Classical sources, based entirely on a poetic view of the Sahara as a “sea of sand.”

According to Lewis Spence, a century ago an Arab writer produced a book making more or less this same claim, placing Atlantis in Morocco.

Adams also investigated claims for Atlantis in Santorini, Tartessus (identified with Doñana in southern Spain), and Malta.
Picture
Kirchner's Atlantis map (Library of Congress)
But this made me a bit annoyed: Adams told National Geographic that there isn’t any way to know whether Athanasius Kircher’s famous seventeenth century “map” of Atlantis was accurate: “But there’s no way of knowing whether he based this on any reliable information or whether he just made it up.” There’s a really good way of knowing: READ THE MAP. Anyone who can read Latin can quite clearly see that Kircher explains that he drew the map entirely from Plato. As I translate: “The site of the island of Atlantis, long ago swallowed up by the sea, according to the opinion of the Egyptians and the description of Plato.” The “Egyptians” are the fictitious Egyptians to which Plato attributed his account of the geography of Atlantis in the Timaeus, and the description of Plato is the one given in the Critias.

Meanwhile, the BBC falsely claimed that Atlantis is “one of the oldest myths of mankind,” despite the fact that the story dates back only to the fourth century BCE, nowhere near as old as the Odyssey or the Epic of Gilgamesh. The BBC, following Rhode Island volcanologist Harald Sigurdsson, claims that the story of Atlantis bears a “striking similarity” to the destruction of Santorini by a volcano, and it further asserts that the same eruption—which occurred around 1600 BCE—also inspired Hesiod’s description of the gigantomachy in the Theogony around 700 BCE. 
“I started to become interested in the myth of Atlantis and the poem Theogony because these are our only written or only documented descriptions or interpretations of this huge volcanic phenomenon,” Sigurdsson says. “We don't have any other accounts so, if you accept that they are related to this event, then they do give you some information that you otherwise wouldn't have.”
Hawaiian geoscientist John Dvorak concurred that the myths provide strong support for the archaeological excavations at Santorini.

I don’t accept that they are related to that event. The Theogony describes the battle of the Titans and Olympians (664ff.), not the Giants and the Olympians (Apollodorus, Library 1.6), and it describes the gods as doing battle on Mt. Olympus, which is not on Santorini. Given that the Theogony is heavily influenced by Hittite and other Near Eastern models, there is little chance that it is a direct account of a Mediterranean volcano. Even if it were, there is no reason to suppose that the Santonrini volcano provided the model; the Greeks at the same time Hesiod wrote were colonizing Sicily, and they began to claim that Typhon, one of the monsters that attacked Olympus, had been imprisoned beneath Mt. Etna, an active volcano (Apollodorus, Library 1.6.3).

Plato, who knew what a volcano is, describes no exploding mountain in Atlantis, and he places the continent-sized Atlantis out in the Atlantic Ocean. In the Timaeus he says that the island sank after “violent earthquakes and floods,” and in the Critias, the unfinished final section strongly implies that he intended to model its destruction on the Near Eastern Flood myth, akin to that of Deucalion, Noah, and Xisithrus. The lack of any evidence for an Atlantis story before Plato also argues against an identification with Santorini.

The trouble seems to be that the earth scientists are not historians or mythologists, and therefore aren’t fully aware of the complexities of analyzing the deepest layers of myths and legends. The same thing happened with the Golden Fleece myth, where Classicists and archaeologists often have wildly divergent views of the story based on figurative and literal readings of the story.

Somehow in order for Plato to be right he must also be wrong, and only by changing all of the details can we make Plato into an accurate source. The trouble is that Atlantis has become the Ship of Theseus, with all of Plato’s original parts substituted for something else. As Plutarch wrote in the Life of Theseus 23.1: “The ship on which Theseus sailed with the youths and returned in safety, the thirty-oared galley, was preserved by the Athenians down to the time of Demetrius Phalereus. They took away the old timbers from time to time, and put new and sound ones in their places, so that the vessel became a standing illustration for the philosophers in the mooted question of growth, some declaring that it remained the same, others that it was not the same vessel” (trans. Bernadotte Perrin). If we swap out all of Plato’s details about Atlantis for new and slightly different ones, is whatever we find still Atlantis? 
102 Comments
Only Me
3/21/2015 03:53:43 am

Honestly, what IS it about Atlantis that keeps people looking for a /fictional/ city?

So much has been accepted as obvious fiction, but not Atlantis. Why?

Reply
EP
3/21/2015 04:28:15 am

By the way, Atlantis is far from the only obvious and (at least) implicitly admitted fictional story in Plato. Indeed, making up myths in order to make a point allegorically was kinda his thing.

Reply
Only Me
3/21/2015 05:47:32 am

That's why I don't understand this obsession to prove the existence of Atlantis. These same people could just as foolishly try to find the cave from Plato's The Republic, using the same justifications that drives the search for Atlantis.

EP
3/21/2015 05:56:34 am

After all, crawling back into Plato's Cave is what fringe scholarship is all about :)

Shane Sullivan
3/21/2015 08:43:39 am

For that reason, I also wouldn't really call it a "myth".

Well, no more than I would refer to Lilliput or the Emerald City as such.

EP
3/21/2015 08:47:01 am

"Myth" is something of a technical term when applied to Plato's fictions. That's the Greek word Plato himself used. The other word he used is "parable". (The Cave is an example of the latter, incidentally.)

Shane Sullivan
3/21/2015 11:10:35 am

Do you really think the people who call the story “one of the oldest myths of mankind” actually know that? =P

EP
3/22/2015 04:34:00 am

What? It's not common knowledge? ;)

V link
3/21/2015 05:56:49 pm

Come on, Atlantis isn't fictional, it's just off the coast of Nassau. My cousin swam with dolphins there for her birthday, while I toured Nassau in a Jeep. I have pictures for proof! Just click on my letter. ;-P

Reply
EP
3/21/2015 04:24:07 am

“The subject is like kryptonite for serious academics.”

I love it how this gets things exactly backwards! :)

Reply
Clint Knapp
3/21/2015 06:52:19 am

Perhaps. Unless we're talking Blue Kryptonite. It does nothing to Kryptonians, but kills Bizarros.

Red might be appropriate too. Though its effects are unpredictable, it's been repeatedly shown to induce apathy.

Reply
EP
3/21/2015 07:00:28 am

You comment is like kryptonite to not being a huge nerd :P

Clint Knapp
3/21/2015 08:17:57 am

Oh, and commenting regularly here didn't already qualify us all for that title?

I freely admit I'm an old-school comic nerd, among other things. A single issue represents a considerable amount of time and creative endeavour well worth admiring as an art form. It's only pop-culture vultures seeking to make nerdhood a marketable commodity that give being one a bad name.

EP
3/21/2015 08:23:36 am

I'm going to assume that you didn't take my comment seriously and are just trolling me :P

Clint Knapp
3/21/2015 09:14:01 am

I wouldn't quite call it "trolling", but no, I didn't take the comment itself seriously. More "argumentative" or "opinionated" than anything ;)

Clete
3/21/2015 05:51:56 am

I too, now that I am retired, want to search for Atlantis. I have it on my schedule, right after my search for Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.

Reply
Hypatia
3/22/2015 04:30:58 pm

If the NY Times article is a preview of the book, searching for Atlantis provides a nice Mediterranean vacation, as opposed to trekking swamps and black flies infested woods with eighty pounds backpack, oatmeal, canned beans and grizzly bears afoot, while searching for Big Foot.

Reply
Bob Jase
3/21/2015 07:11:33 am

I've said it before & I'll say it again - if believers could find the remains of an 11,000 year ago Athens (because we know where that would be) then they could make a case for Plato's story.

But belivers always ignore that part of the story, prolly because it proves that its fiction.

Reply
Thorwald C. Franke link
3/22/2015 11:51:37 pm

Hi Bob Jase, have you ever thought about the fact, that Herodotus thinks Egypt to be older than 11000 years? Now, does Egypt exist, or does it not? Did Herodotus invent it, or did he make a mistake?

What I want to say is only this: It is not so easy as many think. Maybe Atlantis is an invention. But you cannot jump to this conclusion just because of the mentioned 9000 years.

Reply
EP
3/23/2015 03:22:46 am

No. But you *can* jump to that conclusion because it is obviously a fictional place made up by Plato.

It doesn't mean that there are no sunken cities anywhere waiting to be discovered. But just because there's gotta be intelligent life somewhere in the universe doesn't mean Star Trek isn't fiction, either.

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/23/2015 03:53:04 am

@EP:

Wow, a concession from EP's side. EP agrees that we cannot jump from the 9000 years to the conclusion that it is not true.

But EP hasn't told us yet, why it *obvivously* is an invention by Plato. I doubt this. It may be an invention, yet it is not *obvious*.

EP
3/23/2015 03:56:49 am

"I doubt this. It may be an invention, yet it is not *obvious*."

Again, do you feel differently about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? And, if so, how are they different?

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/23/2015 04:32:02 am

Somebody who writes about Plato's Atlantis "do you feel differently about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? And, if so, how are they different?" - cannot have any deeper understanding of Plato, sorry. This is not the level of discussion I prefer to spend my time, thank you for your understanding.

EP
3/23/2015 04:39:52 am

Hey, everybody! Thorwald C. Franke doesn't think my understanding of Plato is deep enough.

LOL

Bob Jase
3/23/2015 06:53:36 am

Don't care what Herodotus thought, I care about what there is evience for an there is none for an 11,000 year old Egyptian kingdom or Athens.

Hypatia
3/21/2015 07:24:01 am

It's obvious that Plato knew about America, as he had been told in the cave by the aliens, but since it had been drifting away for more than a hundred millions years, and no one could find it...Plato INVENTED that it had sunk.

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Only Me
3/21/2015 08:44:01 am

Ah, but Atlantis *didn't* sink! It was really a huge mothership and simply took off into the sky...because aliens. :)

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EP
3/21/2015 08:48:17 am

The word 'mothership' is sexist. Check your privilege :P

Only Me
3/21/2015 09:03:45 am

Hey, it's supposed to be the size of a continent! By any definition, that's a *mother* of a *ship*!

Uncle Ron
3/21/2015 09:07:44 am

So "Come Sail Away" by Styx is the fringer's theme song.

Shane Sullivan
3/21/2015 11:14:05 am

That, and "Inca Roads" by Frank Zappa.

(Did a booger bear come from somewhere out there just to land in the Andes? Was she round, and did she have a motor, or was she something different?)

EP
3/22/2015 04:38:44 am

"World Down Under" by Ace of Base! :D

Drew
3/22/2015 01:15:32 am

You know, Jason, for someone who specializes in close readings of actual texts, you might want to actually read the book before damning it. Adams goes into the problems with Plato's account early on and does not hesitate to point out the often self-contradictory theories of Atlantis believers. I enjoy your writing, but usually you're the one who points out that a writer is going into a subject with incomplete information in order to hang an agenda on it rather than being that person.

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Clint Knapp
3/22/2015 04:28:14 am

Let's be fair, here. This isn't a book review, just a brief commentary on the promotional media surrounding the book and how it's being portrayed by its own author.

Furthermore, it would be difficult to point out problems with Plato's account considering Plato is the primary source of the "myth" in the first place and everyone following him is simply attempting to rationalize his fictional tale as fact. Atlantis is not real. It never was. It was an allegory of Plato's own invention. Saying Plato is wrong about any of it is like saying J.R.R. Tolkien was wrong about the location of the Mines of Moria.

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EP
3/22/2015 04:37:46 am

"Saying Plato is wrong about any of it is like saying J.R.R. Tolkien was wrong about the location of the Mines of Moria."

LOL that's awesome! :D

EP
3/22/2015 04:37:14 am

You know, Drew, I don't think Jason says anything that's incompatible with what you're saying. So you're basically accusing him of not talking about all that stuff you mention. But why should he?

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Jason Colavito link
3/22/2015 06:33:09 am

I certainly did not condemn a book I've never read. (The author, incidentally, offered me a review copy today.) I criticized one specific claim related to the Kirchner map, which may or may not have anything to do with the book, and I criticized Hubner's (not Adams's) claims for Atlantis in Morocco based on Hubner's published articles that I did read. The remainder of my criticism was directed at the BBC and had nothing to do with Adams's book.

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Drew
3/24/2015 02:34:55 am

Thanks for your reply, Jason. Most of my basic reaction to the article has been expressed (maybe in a more combative manner) by another poster below.

What's the difference between an 'author' and a 'writer'? I note on both yours and Mark Adams' personal bio pages that you each have authored three books and you both refer to yourselves as 'authors' yet when writing about Adams, you refer to him simply as a 'travel writer'.

I know this is the most minor of points, but as you've pointed out time and time again on this blog, words and word choice matter, especially when dealing with slippery fringe subjects. You've paid attention to your subjects' titles before (in the post previous to this one, for example) and for you to take the seemingly lesser option here helped contribute to the feeling that you're throwing shade on Adams' book without having done much research on it or him.

Anyways, thanks again for the blog. I am one of the two dozen people who actually enjoys your examinations of medieval UFO sightings.

EP
3/24/2015 05:54:22 am

"What's the difference between an 'author' and a 'writer'?"

Wow, that's an absurdly petty and equally meritless complaint. How *dare* Jason call a travel writer a travel writer?!

LOL

Hypatia
3/24/2015 10:57:32 am

I probably will read the book. I found the NY Times article well-written, interesting, and with good photography. Nothing like those UFO or Loch Ness Monster books trying to persuade the reader on every page with witnesses' testimonies, gobbledygook arguments, and fuzzy-ugly unconvincing pictures. And I am curious about his theory. But nothing is going to convince me short of archaeological evidence.

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/22/2015 11:46:11 pm

Jason Colavito's comment is a typical case for "Read the book first before you comment." Mark Adams does not only investigate four possible locations, but rather visits a lot of academicians as well as amateurs who have to say something on the topic. In the end, Mark Adams jumps into a personal solution which is rather an invention hypothesis than a real location for Atlantis. Jason Colavito should be pleased ...

On the other hand, I am really baffled by the hostility Jason Colavito shows towards any attempt to think about Plato's Atlantis other than in terms of invention. This is by far too simple. Here, the open-minded Mark Adams with his reasonable skepticism has much more to say than Jason Colavito.

True is this statement by Jason Colavito: "The trouble seems to be that the earth scientists are not historians or mythologists, and therefore aren’t fully aware of the complexities of analyzing the deepest layers of myths and legends." - Yet, is Atlantis a myth? Either it really derived from written Egyptian sources, or it is an invention. In neither case it would be a myth.

Finally, if we change some details of the biblical Jesus in order to find the historical Jesus, is this still Jesus, then? I would say yes, if you haven't just changed details arbitrarily, but according to a sound historical critical method.

99% of all Atlantis hypotheses are nuts, but 100%? That is too easy.

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EP
3/23/2015 03:24:53 am

"99% of all Atlantis hypotheses are nuts, but 100%? That is too easy."

Do you feel the same way about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? And if not, what's the difference?

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Thorwald C. Franke link
3/23/2015 03:50:25 am

EP, I do not discuss Plato's Atlantis on this level. If the differences are not obvious for you, I cannot help you. Period.

EP
3/23/2015 03:54:47 am

The differences aren't obvious to me in the sense that all these things are equally fictional. Of course, if you're only capable of talking to other True Believers, they you really cannot help me. Or anyone else, for that matter. Since you're not going to have anything to say that's worth saying.

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/23/2015 04:39:46 am

@EP:

Isn't it - in the line of your argument - *obvious*, that Egypt with its age of more than 11340 years and all the other incredible details is only a fiction of Herodotus and never had such a land existed? Never and nowhere. And Herodotus is the father of lies, then.

This is the result of your approach.
Not convincing, I would say.

EP
3/23/2015 04:47:36 am

Wow, that is the dumbest thing I ever read on this blog. And that includes posts by the likes of Gunn.

Clint Knapp
3/23/2015 04:16:08 am

I would hardly characterize Jason's reaction as "hostility" in any sense of the word. Having a vast knowledge base about the claims surrounding psuedo-history's take on the subject and being able to compare claims against a primary source (which Plato is, and remains, as far as Atlantis is concerned) cannot be called hostility; only accuracy.

If Atlantis derives from "written Egyptian sources" one would have to be able to actually provide such sources in order to take it as serious claim. But no such sources have ever been shown to exist. The story itself isn't even that Plato got the idea from such sources, but that he heard of it from a descendent of Solon who claimed Solon heard it from Egyptians who read it in an already-existent text; a 300-year game of telephone at the very best.

Plato wasn't a historian. He was a philosopher, and making up stories to convey complex ideas to an audience is exactly what a philosopher does. As Bob Jase said earlier in the comments; one must first prove Athens existed 9,000 years before Plato (or more appropriately, Critias) in order for any part of the story to be true.

It is, after all, the story of how Athens liberated the lands within the Pillars of Gibraltar from a vast Atlantean empire; not a dialog about a high-tech super-culture of wonders that everyone following Plato has made it out to be.

If you want that version of Atlantis, what you're really looking for is Aleister Crowley's Liber 051: Atlantis the Lost Continent. It has far more to do with the current world-view of Atlantis than anything Plato ever wrote about events predating even the Egyptian empire the Atlanteans were supposed to have conquered.

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Clint Knapp
3/23/2015 04:24:29 am

Sorry; Pillars of Hercules, Strait of Gibraltar.

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/23/2015 04:35:36 am

@Clint Knapp:

Interesting that you hint to Bob Jase's comment: "As Bob Jase said earlier in the comments; one must first prove Athens existed 9,000 years before Plato (or more appropriately, Critias) in order for any part of the story to be true."

Did you see above that EP conceded that this claim of Bob Jase is wrong? Did you read and understand my Herodotus-Egypt argument from above?

And how do you know that I am looking for a "high-tech super-culture of wonders"? I am not. See http://www.atlantis-scout.de/

EP
3/23/2015 04:45:44 am

Oh, Thorwald, you silly sausage... Look at you mentioning literally one word of my comment which sounds like it is in agreement with you and ignoring everything else I say...

Clint Knapp
3/23/2015 05:21:20 am

What Herodotus had to say about his own belief regarding the history of Egypt still has nothing to do with facts on the ground which cannot demonstrate Egypt existed as a conquerable entity 9,000 years before Plato wrote of Critias or that Athens did (and certainly we know where Athens is) and was a powerful enough entity in and of itself to liberate lands stretching from the Pillars as far as Egypt and up to Tyrrhenia (Central Italy).

At best, such an argument can only account for why Plato might have included such a timeline. It does not necessitate that Herodotus was actually correct.

It's archaeologically and physically unsupportable in every sense of the word. Only by changing everything about Plato's own writing, or leaning on hypothesis put forth to explain why Plato's details are wrong does any of what you say even begin to appear legitimate; at least to the less-informed people who are willing to listen.

I did look at your website, though, and it's horrendous. Little more than a meaningless accumulation of articles summarizing other writers with your own opinions as to what academic processes are. I'd expect someone with a CS degree to be able to assemble a more professional website than this scrolling mess of text before I'd ever consider anything they have to say about a field outside of Computer Science to be legitimate.

EP
3/23/2015 05:52:09 am

Would you say that Thorwald's website is like kryptonite to taking him seriously? ;)

Clint Knapp
3/23/2015 06:28:01 am

I would say the "More or less senseless keyword text for search engines:" paragraph at the bottom of the first page fits that bill nicely, yes. Even in 2000, when the site went up, that was not an acceptable standard for search engine optimization.

Bob Jase
3/23/2015 06:59:22 am

Thorwald, you sweet little cherry-picker, I id not say evidence for an 11,000 year ol Athens is needed to prove Atlantis existed but it is to prove that Plato's version of Atlantis did because they are parts of the same story.

And no, a handful of hunter-gatherers on some dinky island who had no written language or permanent settlements woul hardly equal the 'empire' that Atlantis supposely had.

EP
3/23/2015 11:18:56 am

Atlantis Plato Goethe not-a-Nazi tits Call of Duty Justin Bieber :)

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/24/2015 10:26:01 am

@all:

Find below a collective answer ...

@Clint Knapp:

You wrote: "Plato wasn't a historian. He was a philosopher, and making up stories to convey complex ideas to an audience is exactly what a philosopher does."

Hm, I always thought, that this would be the task of a poet? I know some great novels explaining complicated things. Yet their authors are not considered to be philosophers (and rightly so).

Take-home message: A philosopher is neither a historian *nor* is he a poet! Method and target of making stories up (and Plato did make some stories up) differs widely between a poet and a philosopher. This has vast consequences for the interpretation of all Platonic Myths, and it is sad to say that most academics did not see this ...

Jason Colavito link
3/23/2015 06:58:11 am

I fail to see how I expressed hostility to Atlantis theories in general. I criticized a specific claim Adams made about Kirchner's map, which is contradicted by the map itself, and I criticized Hubner for making claims that he did not support and then asking us to accept those claims as circumstantial evidence for Atlantis. The fact, however, remains that there is not a shred of evidence for Atlantis before Plato, and this makes it very difficult to ascribe any more truth to the story than to Euhemerus's Panchaea, which everyone admits is just a story.

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Hypatia
3/23/2015 08:41:05 am

But where o where are El Dorado, Arcadia and Shambhala?

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/23/2015 11:48:13 pm

@Jason Colavito:

I apologize for the word "hostility"; I have to downsize my criticism to a more decent word such as "unfriendliness".

The reasons why I came to this idea, were: First, you talk of Atlantis as "fictional" right from the beginning, before you even had a look at what Mark Adams put forward. Although this is a legitimate opinion, it did not look nice. -- Secondly, you compared "changing" details of Atlantis with the ship of Theseus, without noticing that every academic approach to biblical, Homerian, Herodotean or any other ancient text "changes" details when identifying in reality what the ancients talked about, according to a sound historical critical method.

Thirdly, there was your sentence "And like all people influenced by fringe literature, Adams asserts that mainstream scientists and scholars refuse to take Atlantis research seriously: 'The subject is like kryptonite for serious academics.' " -- This sentence is strange, since it states, that everybody who says this, is marked as a "fringer". But does it? Why shouldn't Mark Adams say this, if this is his experience? To get a reasonably skeptic yet open-minded statement from academics about Atlantis is extremely difficult. It is not impossible, as Mark Adams himself showed in his book, and as I myself know from my own experience, yet mostly it does not work. Too much prejudices out there.

I agree to your Kircher map criticism, yet this sheds a wrong light onto the book. The book has it better than this article. Media are currently playing their own game, the Morocco hypothesis is not what Mark Adams favours in the end. I would say, this time it is a book which skeptics as well as searchers can enjoy and should read.

Concerning Panchaia, I point to Franco De Angelis et al. (2006) who presented an interesting suggestion for an inspiration of Panchaia (inspiration means: an *invention* based on a historical experience). So even Panchaia is not fully out of this world ... and Atlantis was not its inspiration.

Franco De Angelis / Benjamin Garstad, Euhemerus in Context, in: Classical Antiquity Vol. 25 No. 2 / 2006; pp. 211-242.

EP
3/24/2015 02:40:17 am

It's also hard to get an open minded statement about leprechauns.

Why aren't you open-minded about leprechauns, Thorwald?!

Only Me
3/23/2015 09:12:51 am

Let me get this straight. Mr. Franke argues that because Herodotus believed the Egyptians existed over 11,000 years ago, Atlantis can't be an invention of Plato due to the timeline Plato wrote.

So, that means a fictional timeline, to support the fictional history of a fictional city, is evidence that Atlantis is *not* the invention of the very man who wrote about it?

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EP
3/23/2015 11:21:09 am

I wouldn't have compared him to Gunn for no reason :)

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SouthCoast
3/23/2015 09:24:05 am

"...a century ago an Arab writer..." Whose works must be axiomatically true as it's a well-known fact that there were no loons or idiots a century ago.

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EP
3/23/2015 11:22:22 am

Back then everyone was an Ascended Master :)

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Thorwald C. Franke link
3/23/2015 11:49:08 pm

@all my mockers and deriders:

Instead of realizing the argument I presented, you preferred to put forward insults, mockeries, and -- under an academic perspective even worse -- an intentional twisting of my words. You showed exactly the behaviour of those who adhere to a certain belief when confronted with an argument not fitting to the beloved belief.

All the ancient Greek authors (wrongly) believed Egypt to be 11000 years or older. It was clearly a mistake, not an invention, and surely no "fiction". Now, the 9000 years of Plato's Atlantis clearly depend on the Egyptian chronology, since the Atlantis story allegedly came from Egypt.

What does this mean?

(a) The 9000 years are no longer a hint to a supposed fictional status of the Atlantis account. For ancient Greeks, 9000 years were not incredible and not exaggerated. It is only for us moderns. It could well be a mistake instead of an invention. As with all the other Greek authors.

(b) In the same way we moderns know that Egypt existed, although wrong 11000 years were attributed to it, in the same way we have to conclude for Atlantis at least the possibility to exist at a younger date, as with Egypt.

You, my beloved mockers and deriders, have no real clue of Plato, of Platonic Myths, of history, and of historical criticism. You wouldn't accept the historical Jesus to be real even if only few details of a historical Jesus looked different to the picture of Jesus as drawn by the bible.

You, my beloved mockers and deriders, are prejudiced believers. You believe that Plato's Atlantis was an invention. What a fun when you imputed to me the ridiculous idea of an 11000 year old super-technology Atlantis -- you presented your prejudices in the best possible way.

Thank you that you showed the weakness of your arguments by mocking and deriding. Keep in mind: To laugh too much is a hindrance of insight.

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EP
3/24/2015 02:34:55 am

You're wrong. What we showed is that you're a joke and not worth taking seriously. Or rather, you show it yourself and we showed that we see it (just like pretty much everyone else does).

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Clint Knapp
3/24/2015 02:41:03 am

Still you use a false assertion to back your claim. Let me break the year problem down for you, Thorwald:

You wish to lean on Herodotus' dating to indicate that Plato could not have made the story up because he used dating similar to Herodotus and therefore it was a genuine belief at the time that such was the age of Egypt. Therefore, you argue, by using a date known to Greek society, Plato did not err in his dating.

However, consider if you will the Great Sphinx at Giza. Commonly dated to around 2558-2532 BC, a number of people calling themselves scholars have suggested a wide range of dates; notably Robert Schoch who leans on his academic credentials as a geologist to proclaim a date of 7000–5000 BC.

Now. For the sake of illustration let us assume someone wrote a story about Egypt using Shoch's dating. They get a fair bit of historical detail right, but the dates are wrong and the events are fictionalized; perhaps even including a second-wave incursion by surviving Atlanteans.

Shoch's dating is well known to the Western world. It's a sad fact that portrayal in media has leaned more heavily toward promoting Shoch's dating than actual scholarship, after all. We can, however, demonstrate that Shoch's dating is entirely off-base and his theory does not hold the water he insists created the erosion that he uses to re-date the Sphinx in the first place.

Does this mean that the writer of a Shoch-inspired story is actually correct about their details because they used a dating system widely known to the society they live in? Or is it more likely that they used Shoch's date in the same way authors around the world, past and present do: to make their story more believable to their audience?

This is the problem with your argument. You can say that the date's compliance with a known dating system is confirmation that the rest of the details are correct, but you fail to acknowledge that even the most basic fundamentals of fiction are to make the story as believable as possible within the context for which it is intended.

Plato was a philosopher lecturing and writing stories built to convey new modes of thought, warnings, and other concepts to an audience who understood the world in a certain way. Of course he used details they would be familiar with when doing so. It's how good storytelling works.

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Thorwald C. Franke link
3/24/2015 09:47:46 am

@Clint Knapp:

You still haven't got it. The timeline of 11000 years or similar was not fringe-work, but generally accepted. So, if a writer chooses the generally accepted date (this is today approx. 3000 BC), does this say anything about the truth or fictional status of his text? No, of course not.

And if science 100 years later finds out that the correct date is 3200 BC, are then all academic papers working with 3000 BC fictional papers? No, of course not.

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/24/2015 10:04:24 am

@Clint Knapp - PS:

You wrote: "You wish to lean on Herodotus' dating to indicate that Plato could not have made the story up".

No, I do not wish this. Do not twist my words. Of course, Plato could have made it up. As if every modern Egyptologist could make up a story including the today's generally accepted chronology. The 9000 years do not hint to fact, but also not to fiction. That is the point.

Hypatia
3/24/2015 03:41:42 am

Not so, not so. The question is, which parts of the story of Atlantis (or of the life of Jesus) do you take seriously, and what evidence -- or arguments in these cases mainly -- have you to back it up?

Is the dispute a question of, on one hand, first assuming it is based on reality and discarding the details that do not fit the theory, or, on the other hand, keeping a skeptic mind (not too open so that the 'brain starts leaking out', 'as it is said') then getting convinced by sound evidence?

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Thorwald C. Franke link
3/24/2015 10:16:21 am

@Hypatia:

Yes so, exactly so. Before you come to the question, what could be the real background of the Atlantis story, you should ask the question, whether there basically could be such a historical background!

And in order to do this, you have to remove modern myths such as the modern myth that the 9000 years in Plato's story would be a clear hint to a fictional fable. They aren't.

After you clarified this (and some other obstacles like the modern myth that Aristotle did not believe in Atlantis), you can start asking the question, what the real background was, knowing, that the question is worth it.

Hypatia
3/24/2015 05:48:02 pm

But the fact that this island 'outside the Pillars of Heracles (Straights of Gibraltar),' -- 61,000 sq miles, 'facing the region of Gades (Cadiz)', which sunk and 'became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the (Atlantic) ocean,' -- is nowhere to be found in the said ocean... Is that just some more platonic flourish to be ignored as well?

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/25/2015 06:38:27 am

@Hypatia:

(1) Nothing is ignored. It is interpreted *correctly* in the context of the time.

(2) Your further items:
- Situation of the island.
- Size of the island.
- Sinking.
- Mud.

The same is valid for all these items. Let me just say some words about the mud: Although we moderns know that there never was mud there, the ancients generally assumed this. Plato is not the only author talking about this, but *all* ancient authors say this (if they say anything).

Again, the same thing: It is most probably not an invention, but a mistake. A big difference. And thus, there is at least a fair possibility for Atlantis, which is not the same as a proof for Atlantis.

Hypatia
3/25/2015 12:26:54 pm

Good luck with your quest, Thornwald. You're so tenacious, you deserve to find your Atlantis.

But to convince anyone that your sunken site is Plato's Atlantis, you would have to dig out a temple in the center containing a pillar inscribed with an "oath invoking mighty curses on the disobedient," and some bull bones perhaps mixed with the bones of the ten degenerate kings whose divine genes had been polluted by too many human ones, and who started fighting among themselves instead of adhering to their blood oath. (And thus, they sank.)

Hypatia
3/25/2015 12:29:38 pm

sorry, typo, Thorwald.

Uncle Ron
3/24/2015 06:31:40 am

The bottom line is this: today, with ubiquitous communication of text and photos among individuals and virtually instantaneous television and internet coverage of current events, when the facts of an event (or the absence of facts) should be widely known by anyone interested, still we see the truth distorted by ignorance, laziness, and the bias or the agenda of those reporting it. To believe that an event thousands of years ago could be accurately transmitted orally for generations, and even when written down and translated repeatedly by generations more remain unchanged, is naïve. Those who wish us to take ancient tales even partially literally must bear the burden of proving, through accepted means such as archeology, that there is a basis for that position. There is no evidence for a factual Atlantis and every reason to believe that it is entirely a fable. Anyone who believes otherwise must provide facts, not wishful thinking, to back up their claims.

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Thorwald C. Franke link
3/24/2015 10:00:46 am

@Uncle Ron:

You are fully right, that historical traditions become distorted. The task of historical criticism is to find out, what really was.

I cannot agree on your opinion, that there is "every reason to believe that it is entirely a fable". As I demonstrated, such things like the 9000 years are no hint to a fable. A neutral point of view would be better in this case, for example.

Only Me
3/24/2015 10:08:35 am

Alright, Mr. Franke.

Using your own argument, are you going to start telling everyone you know that Superman is a real, flesh-and-blood extraterrestrial from Krypton, hiding in plain sight under the alias Clark Kent? Because he lives in Metropolis, which, according to DC Comics, is in New York state. By your argument, Metropolis is real, too....because everyone accepts that the state of New York exists.

This same "logic" can be applied toward billionaire Bruce Wayne and his alter-ego Batman. Gotham-again, according to DC-is in the state of New Jersey. Ergo, Batman and Gotham are real since everyone accepts the state of New Jersey exists.

Clearly, neither man is an invention of storytellers hired by DC Comics, since their established histories fall well within the known chronologies of New York and New Jersey.

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EP
3/24/2015 10:34:47 am

I'm heartened by the fact that everyone immediately sees exactly why Thorwald's argument is completely retarded.

Pacal
3/27/2015 03:22:43 am

Saying that Atlantis is an invention doesn't mean that Plato did not derive elements of it from the real world. For example much fantasy fiction is based / modeled quite clearly on Medieval Europe. That doesn't make it any less a fiction / invention. In Game of Thrones it is rather obvious that Westeros is modeled after Medieval Britain, but that doesn't make it any less an invention. Or another example the Galactic Empire of Isaac Asimov's Foundation series is also clearly modeled on the Roman Empire and clearly remains an invention.

Plato was not trying to write history he was writing a philosophical dialogue to illustrate philosophical points and principles. Without a doubt he took various stories / myths locations etc., and real events to construct his myth. Thus for example Athens fighting off the Atlantians bears a similarity to Athens fighting off the Persians. Atlantis is like the Persian Empire in this myth. Further the city of Atlantis bears a not accidental resemblance to Carthage and Syracuse. But of course in the end Plato's placing of Atlantis in the Atlantic ocean reveals clearly that Plato's Atlantis is an invention much like Westeros.

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EP
3/24/2015 10:29:26 am

Thorwald, your argument totally makes sensr. Moreover, your Cratylus/Werther slashfic surely proves that Atlantis is real!

LOL

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Only Me
3/24/2015 11:06:39 am

Um...what?!

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EP
3/24/2015 11:43:25 am

It's sarcasm. And no, the Cratylus/Werther slashfic - fortunately! - isn't real, but Thorwald's argument does imply that existence of fan fiction makes it plausible that fiction is real.

Only Me
3/24/2015 08:40:30 pm

For those that may be confused as to what Mr. Franke is arguing, I'll break it down.

1) Greek scholars allegedly believed Egypt was over 11,000 years old.
2) Plato most likely shared this belief.
3) Plato based his history of Atlantis on that belief.
4) Modern science has proven that belief to be incorrect.
5) Because the Greeks were wrong, Plato's timeline for Atlantis can't be used to support the idea Atlantis was a myth or Plato's invention.
CONCLUSION: Egypt is a real place and allegedly the story of Atlantis came from the Egyptians, therefore it's possible Atlantis was real, too.

I draw your attention to points 1-5. Collectively, they are known as a red herring, as they are irrelevant to the discussion. Mr. Franke's argument is actually the conclusion. Unfortunately, it's also wrong.

Plato was a philosopher who wrote stories to express his concepts of the state and society *in his day*. He remains the only primary source that mentions Atlantis. What we have been told about it comes from the fanciful interpretations, and reinterpretations, of his original story. In an attempt to give the story some semblance of reality, he based Atlantis's history on the allegedly accepted belief of Egyptian history during his time. He further claimed Egyptian priests told the story of Atlantis to Solon and it was passed down for generations until his relative, Critias, told it to Plato. Neither element is true.

There are *no* Egyptian accounts of Atlantis, at all. NONE. The cold, harsh truth is that Atlantis is Plato's creation. It is a myth and nothing more.

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Thorwald C. Franke link
3/25/2015 06:54:20 am

@Only Me:

Thank you that you summarized my argument correctly in points 1-5, and my conclusion is correctly described, too. Thank you that you kind of accepted it (but declare it for irrelevant).

But why should this be irrelevant? I think it is very relevant, whether you can easily judge if Atlantis is fiction, or whether you cannot, based on the 9000 years. Very relevant indeed, because if you could, things would be easy. So please: Why not relevant?

And how do you want to know, that Plato *invented* the story by placing it to the generally accepted timeline? How do you distinguish a real story like Herodotus' story and an invented story, both placed at the same timeline? You cannot distinguish this from the timeline.

So you need other proofs.
But you only put forward claims.

You claim that Plato invented it, you claim that the Egyptian source is invented, too. You claim that there are no Egyptian accounts on Atlantis which is ludicrous, since the task would be to identify them correctly. You could maybe say, so far nobody managed to *identify* them, but you cannot say that there are no such accounts.

Could it be possible that you ran out of arguments? Oh no ... this is again too easy! Look, 99% of all invention hypotheses on Atlantis are rubbish, but to say this of 100% would be too easy *smile*

Reply
Only Me
3/25/2015 07:50:22 am

Actually, Mr. Franke, you're the one with no argument to be made.

Solon *allegedly* was told by Egyptian priests the naval battle between Atlantis and Ancient Athens occurred 9,000 years before his time?

1) Solon was born in 630 BC.
2) The earliest Greek civilization is the Cycladic civilization at around 3200 BC.
3) The earliest examples of Egyptian hieroglyphics is around 3200 BC.

Do the math; 3200 - 630 does not equal 9,000. The very nature of the battle--between two powerful navies--should be enough of a clue that the event is an invention.

It's truly stunning how you could suggest that no scholar has correctly identified *any* Egyptian record of Atlantis. In other words, you will not and cannot accept the truth that Atlantis is a story element of one of Plato's dialogues.

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/25/2015 08:17:10 am

@Only Me:

It is stunning: First it seemed you understood it. Now you turned back to your previous misunderstanding. The calculation 9000-630 does not make any sense. I answered already everything you are criticizing here.

By the way: Which naval battle? The Atlantis account does not talk of any Egyptian navy. Where did you get this from? Ah! I know: From the Egyptian Sea Peoples accounts. So, you deny that there are any possible Egyptian accounts while at the same time you use details of exactly such an account? Oh my dear ...

Only Me
3/25/2015 08:44:56 am

Wrong again, Mr. Franke.

According to Plato's account, Atlantis was an antagonistic *naval power* (which makes sense, as Atlantis was an island) that laid siege to Ancient Athens. In the story, the Athenians were the only ones to repel the Atlantians.

My grasp of your argument exceeds yours. You don't have an argument, only a fanatical belief in a fictional civilization that allows you to ignore, discredit and disregard every known fact that proves Atlantis existed nowhere else but in Plato's writings.

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/25/2015 09:35:40 am

@Only Me:

Stunning. Simply stunning. Plato really did not want his ideal state to have a navy. This is a key feature of the ideal state. Didn't you know this? Plato would turn in his grave because of your absolutely biased idea of a naval battle between Atlantis and primeval Athens.

Having expressed an argument for the possibility of existence for Atlantis is far from belief and fanaticism. Why are you so fanatic in condemning me and my sound argument? You cannot stand that things are more complicated than you imagined, can you?

Only Me
3/25/2015 11:41:34 am

"Why are you so fanatic in condemning me and my sound argument?"

You have no argument, sound or otherwise. I'm not condemning you at all; I've applied critical thinking to your "argument" and found it wanting. Besides, you can't play the victim card when you were the first to call everyone who disagreed with you mockers, deriders and prejudiced believers.

"You cannot stand that things are more complicated than you imagined, can you?"

Actually, you are the one who can't stand things aren't complicated at all or that what you imagined isn't the truth. Don't frame weak arguments around inconsequential story elements and proclaim it evidence that Atlantis is real. Find something that can be tested and verified...historical records, artifacts, something.

Thorwald C. Franke link
3/25/2015 11:46:45 am

@Only Me:

Your words: "Don't frame weak arguments ... and proclaim it evidence that Atlantis is real."

Ah, when trapped you fall back to twisting my words against their meaning. Gotcha! *smile*

Only Me
3/25/2015 11:57:43 am

Trapped? *Snicker* Gotcha? *Snort* Twisting your words? Please. I've been demonstrably fair to you. I haven't insulted you one time, though you didn't extend the same courtesy.

Honestly, my patience is waning thin. No matter what I say, you refuse to listen. So, Mr. Franke, there is no reason for me to continue.

EP
3/25/2015 12:35:01 pm

Only Me, you've been nothing if not Christ-like in your patience! :D

Pacal
3/27/2015 03:59:39 am

how do we know Plato invented it? Well Plato claims Atlantis was larger than Libya and Asia put together and that it was out beyond the pillars of Heracles in the Atlantic. That is obviously made up. Regardless of how much or how little Plato may have drawn on folk tales, contemporary history etc., to construct his tale Plato's myth remains a myth in the same way Westeros is not England.

Despite well over a century of searching there has been a complete failure to find in Egyptian records / inscriptions anything bearing even a remote resemblance to Plato's Atlantis tale. So sorry It is more likely than not that Plato invented the whole Egyptian Priests told Solon who told X who then told Y etc. to give his tale some veracity. Aside from the pointed out game of telephone aspects of this story.

Plato's myth of Atlantis was simply another variation of the myths that Plkato wrote in his Dialogues to illustrate a point and about has "true" has any of them. After all in the Timaeus we have also the creation of the world, and Plato's myth of the Soul and in The Republic we have the myths of the metals and the cave all called "true" by Plato..

Pacal
3/27/2015 03:56:06 pm

Since Plato's dialogues have all mythical stories in them like the myth of metals and the cave. In Timaeus along with Atlantis has the myths of the soul and creation. And in all instances they are asserted has "true" we can rest assured that Plato deliberately wrote myths that were not literally true.

As for the Egyptian accounts. The bottom line is there is not hint of Atlantis in Egyptian writings period and that is germane to the question of did Plato get the account ultimately from Egypt. The telephone game aspects of the transfer of the tale are also germane here has indicated by others. Oh and look up the problem of being unable to prove a negative.

As for distinguishing a "real" story from an invented one? In the case of Atlantis that is easy. First Plato says the island of Atlantis was larger than Libya and Asia put together and puts it in the Atlantic ocean facing the pillars of Heracles (the Strait of Gibraltar). Those two characteristics alone indicate that Plato invented it. Like Westeros Atlantis is an invention. The fact Plato like Martin may have used elements of the real world in creating his myth doesn't make it less of a myth. Martin may have based Westeros on Medieval Britain but it is none the less still a myth and despite what ever story Plato may have used it doesn't make Atlantis any more than a myth also.

EP
3/25/2015 06:59:46 am

I'm surprised that people are still arguing with Thorwald. He is obviously both too dense and too much of a true believer to see how ridiculous his precious Herodotus argument really is.

Of course, if y'all are just using him for target practice, I can't really blame you... :)

Reply
Clint Knapp
3/25/2015 07:59:22 am

It just gets worse with every "maybe" he piles in as a shocking lack of understanding creative process, philosophy, and even poetry (!) come into the picture.

At this point I'd liken his argument to the flies buzzing around a dead horse complaining about the vultures getting to the good bits first. So much noise. So little substance.

Reply
Thorwald C. Franke link
3/25/2015 08:18:27 am

@Clint Knapp:

Back to mocking, deriding and twisting my words?
Sad, simply sad.

Shane Sullivan
3/26/2015 01:00:16 pm

Well, in Thorwald's defense, you can't prove that there *wasn't* a man from Nantucket, only that evidence of his unprecedented endowment has not yet been found.

EP
3/25/2015 11:10:32 am

Thorwald C. Franke: The Edward Gibbon of Gunn Sinclairs!

Reply
Bob Jase
3/27/2015 09:50:44 am

Dammit, I'm not supposed to laugh this loud at work!

Reply
EP
3/29/2015 11:40:06 am

Thanks! I do what I can! :)

(Also, testing Weebly... 1... 2... 3...)


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