The lost continent of Atlantis returned to the news this week with a series of articles in major media outlets claiming that the legendary city had been found, thanks to a new book from author Mark Adams called Meet Me in Atlantis in which the author investigates four hypotheses about where the fictional landmass may have been located. Adams, a travel writer, said that he first became interested in Atlantis as a child watching documentaries like In Search Of…, which sparked an interest in the unusual and unexplained. And like all people influenced by fringe literature, Adams asserts that mainstream scientists and scholars refuse to take Atlantis research seriously: “The subject is like kryptonite for serious academics.” Adams has a teaser for his book in tomorrow’s New York Times, available online now. According to National Geographic, Adams is most interested in a new hypothesis advocated by a German man which claims that the lost city was located south of Casablanca in Morocco, which supposedly meets the requirement from Plato’s Critias that Atlantis have concentric circles of black and red stone surrounding it: Michael Hübner and I walked across the desert and, sure enough, there was black and red striped stone. Then he took me to the edge of the Sahara desert, and walked me up the hillside. Lo and behold, there were these concentric circles on the edge of the desert, and just a few miles away was the Atlantic Ocean. He makes a really compelling case that Atlantis was located in Morocco, and that’s a relatively new theory. Not a lot of people have come up with his hypothesis. In the Critias, Plato states that Atlantis’s walls were composed of different colored stones, not single stones of multiple colors: “One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out double docks, having roofs formed out of the native rock” (trans. Benjamin Jowett). Nevertheless, Hübner claims to have statistically correlated hundreds of details from Plato with facts about Morocco, though to make his hypothesis work he has to make several assumptions, particularly that the word “island” was used figuratively rather than literally, and that the people of Dark Age Greece were familiar with Morocco and could have labeled it “the island of Atlas” due to its remote location. These are unprovable assumptions, and no evidence of a Bronze Age civilization has been found in the target region. Hübner claims that the local Amazigh people (more properly Imazighen, better known as Berbers) refer to the region as an “island,” but he provides no source for the claim, using the passive voice to assert that “it is said.” He is on slightly stronger ground when noting that Arab geographers refer to the region between the Sahara and the Mediterranean as jazirat al maghrib, the “island of the West,” but this is a figurative term not attested in Classical sources, based entirely on a poetic view of the Sahara as a “sea of sand.” According to Lewis Spence, a century ago an Arab writer produced a book making more or less this same claim, placing Atlantis in Morocco. Adams also investigated claims for Atlantis in Santorini, Tartessus (identified with Doñana in southern Spain), and Malta. But this made me a bit annoyed: Adams told National Geographic that there isn’t any way to know whether Athanasius Kircher’s famous seventeenth century “map” of Atlantis was accurate: “But there’s no way of knowing whether he based this on any reliable information or whether he just made it up.” There’s a really good way of knowing: READ THE MAP. Anyone who can read Latin can quite clearly see that Kircher explains that he drew the map entirely from Plato. As I translate: “The site of the island of Atlantis, long ago swallowed up by the sea, according to the opinion of the Egyptians and the description of Plato.” The “Egyptians” are the fictitious Egyptians to which Plato attributed his account of the geography of Atlantis in the Timaeus, and the description of Plato is the one given in the Critias. Meanwhile, the BBC falsely claimed that Atlantis is “one of the oldest myths of mankind,” despite the fact that the story dates back only to the fourth century BCE, nowhere near as old as the Odyssey or the Epic of Gilgamesh. The BBC, following Rhode Island volcanologist Harald Sigurdsson, claims that the story of Atlantis bears a “striking similarity” to the destruction of Santorini by a volcano, and it further asserts that the same eruption—which occurred around 1600 BCE—also inspired Hesiod’s description of the gigantomachy in the Theogony around 700 BCE. “I started to become interested in the myth of Atlantis and the poem Theogony because these are our only written or only documented descriptions or interpretations of this huge volcanic phenomenon,” Sigurdsson says. “We don't have any other accounts so, if you accept that they are related to this event, then they do give you some information that you otherwise wouldn't have.” Hawaiian geoscientist John Dvorak concurred that the myths provide strong support for the archaeological excavations at Santorini.
I don’t accept that they are related to that event. The Theogony describes the battle of the Titans and Olympians (664ff.), not the Giants and the Olympians (Apollodorus, Library 1.6), and it describes the gods as doing battle on Mt. Olympus, which is not on Santorini. Given that the Theogony is heavily influenced by Hittite and other Near Eastern models, there is little chance that it is a direct account of a Mediterranean volcano. Even if it were, there is no reason to suppose that the Santonrini volcano provided the model; the Greeks at the same time Hesiod wrote were colonizing Sicily, and they began to claim that Typhon, one of the monsters that attacked Olympus, had been imprisoned beneath Mt. Etna, an active volcano (Apollodorus, Library 1.6.3). Plato, who knew what a volcano is, describes no exploding mountain in Atlantis, and he places the continent-sized Atlantis out in the Atlantic Ocean. In the Timaeus he says that the island sank after “violent earthquakes and floods,” and in the Critias, the unfinished final section strongly implies that he intended to model its destruction on the Near Eastern Flood myth, akin to that of Deucalion, Noah, and Xisithrus. The lack of any evidence for an Atlantis story before Plato also argues against an identification with Santorini. The trouble seems to be that the earth scientists are not historians or mythologists, and therefore aren’t fully aware of the complexities of analyzing the deepest layers of myths and legends. The same thing happened with the Golden Fleece myth, where Classicists and archaeologists often have wildly divergent views of the story based on figurative and literal readings of the story. Somehow in order for Plato to be right he must also be wrong, and only by changing all of the details can we make Plato into an accurate source. The trouble is that Atlantis has become the Ship of Theseus, with all of Plato’s original parts substituted for something else. As Plutarch wrote in the Life of Theseus 23.1: “The ship on which Theseus sailed with the youths and returned in safety, the thirty-oared galley, was preserved by the Athenians down to the time of Demetrius Phalereus. They took away the old timbers from time to time, and put new and sound ones in their places, so that the vessel became a standing illustration for the philosophers in the mooted question of growth, some declaring that it remained the same, others that it was not the same vessel” (trans. Bernadotte Perrin). If we swap out all of Plato’s details about Atlantis for new and slightly different ones, is whatever we find still Atlantis?
102 Comments
Only Me
3/21/2015 03:53:43 am
Honestly, what IS it about Atlantis that keeps people looking for a /fictional/ city?
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EP
3/21/2015 04:28:15 am
By the way, Atlantis is far from the only obvious and (at least) implicitly admitted fictional story in Plato. Indeed, making up myths in order to make a point allegorically was kinda his thing.
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Only Me
3/21/2015 05:47:32 am
That's why I don't understand this obsession to prove the existence of Atlantis. These same people could just as foolishly try to find the cave from Plato's The Republic, using the same justifications that drives the search for Atlantis.
EP
3/21/2015 05:56:34 am
After all, crawling back into Plato's Cave is what fringe scholarship is all about :)
Shane Sullivan
3/21/2015 08:43:39 am
For that reason, I also wouldn't really call it a "myth".
EP
3/21/2015 08:47:01 am
"Myth" is something of a technical term when applied to Plato's fictions. That's the Greek word Plato himself used. The other word he used is "parable". (The Cave is an example of the latter, incidentally.)
Shane Sullivan
3/21/2015 11:10:35 am
Do you really think the people who call the story “one of the oldest myths of mankind” actually know that? =P
EP
3/22/2015 04:34:00 am
What? It's not common knowledge? ;)
EP
3/21/2015 04:24:07 am
“The subject is like kryptonite for serious academics.”
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Clint Knapp
3/21/2015 06:52:19 am
Perhaps. Unless we're talking Blue Kryptonite. It does nothing to Kryptonians, but kills Bizarros.
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EP
3/21/2015 07:00:28 am
You comment is like kryptonite to not being a huge nerd :P
Clint Knapp
3/21/2015 08:17:57 am
Oh, and commenting regularly here didn't already qualify us all for that title?
EP
3/21/2015 08:23:36 am
I'm going to assume that you didn't take my comment seriously and are just trolling me :P
Clint Knapp
3/21/2015 09:14:01 am
I wouldn't quite call it "trolling", but no, I didn't take the comment itself seriously. More "argumentative" or "opinionated" than anything ;)
Clete
3/21/2015 05:51:56 am
I too, now that I am retired, want to search for Atlantis. I have it on my schedule, right after my search for Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.
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Hypatia
3/22/2015 04:30:58 pm
If the NY Times article is a preview of the book, searching for Atlantis provides a nice Mediterranean vacation, as opposed to trekking swamps and black flies infested woods with eighty pounds backpack, oatmeal, canned beans and grizzly bears afoot, while searching for Big Foot.
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Bob Jase
3/21/2015 07:11:33 am
I've said it before & I'll say it again - if believers could find the remains of an 11,000 year ago Athens (because we know where that would be) then they could make a case for Plato's story.
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3/22/2015 11:51:37 pm
Hi Bob Jase, have you ever thought about the fact, that Herodotus thinks Egypt to be older than 11000 years? Now, does Egypt exist, or does it not? Did Herodotus invent it, or did he make a mistake?
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EP
3/23/2015 03:22:46 am
No. But you *can* jump to that conclusion because it is obviously a fictional place made up by Plato. 3/23/2015 03:53:04 am
@EP:
EP
3/23/2015 03:56:49 am
"I doubt this. It may be an invention, yet it is not *obvious*." 3/23/2015 04:32:02 am
Somebody who writes about Plato's Atlantis "do you feel differently about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? And, if so, how are they different?" - cannot have any deeper understanding of Plato, sorry. This is not the level of discussion I prefer to spend my time, thank you for your understanding.
EP
3/23/2015 04:39:52 am
Hey, everybody! Thorwald C. Franke doesn't think my understanding of Plato is deep enough.
Bob Jase
3/23/2015 06:53:36 am
Don't care what Herodotus thought, I care about what there is evience for an there is none for an 11,000 year old Egyptian kingdom or Athens.
Hypatia
3/21/2015 07:24:01 am
It's obvious that Plato knew about America, as he had been told in the cave by the aliens, but since it had been drifting away for more than a hundred millions years, and no one could find it...Plato INVENTED that it had sunk.
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Only Me
3/21/2015 08:44:01 am
Ah, but Atlantis *didn't* sink! It was really a huge mothership and simply took off into the sky...because aliens. :)
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EP
3/21/2015 08:48:17 am
The word 'mothership' is sexist. Check your privilege :P
Only Me
3/21/2015 09:03:45 am
Hey, it's supposed to be the size of a continent! By any definition, that's a *mother* of a *ship*!
Uncle Ron
3/21/2015 09:07:44 am
So "Come Sail Away" by Styx is the fringer's theme song.
Shane Sullivan
3/21/2015 11:14:05 am
That, and "Inca Roads" by Frank Zappa.
EP
3/22/2015 04:38:44 am
"World Down Under" by Ace of Base! :D
Drew
3/22/2015 01:15:32 am
You know, Jason, for someone who specializes in close readings of actual texts, you might want to actually read the book before damning it. Adams goes into the problems with Plato's account early on and does not hesitate to point out the often self-contradictory theories of Atlantis believers. I enjoy your writing, but usually you're the one who points out that a writer is going into a subject with incomplete information in order to hang an agenda on it rather than being that person.
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Clint Knapp
3/22/2015 04:28:14 am
Let's be fair, here. This isn't a book review, just a brief commentary on the promotional media surrounding the book and how it's being portrayed by its own author.
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EP
3/22/2015 04:37:46 am
"Saying Plato is wrong about any of it is like saying J.R.R. Tolkien was wrong about the location of the Mines of Moria."
EP
3/22/2015 04:37:14 am
You know, Drew, I don't think Jason says anything that's incompatible with what you're saying. So you're basically accusing him of not talking about all that stuff you mention. But why should he?
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3/22/2015 06:33:09 am
I certainly did not condemn a book I've never read. (The author, incidentally, offered me a review copy today.) I criticized one specific claim related to the Kirchner map, which may or may not have anything to do with the book, and I criticized Hubner's (not Adams's) claims for Atlantis in Morocco based on Hubner's published articles that I did read. The remainder of my criticism was directed at the BBC and had nothing to do with Adams's book.
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Drew
3/24/2015 02:34:55 am
Thanks for your reply, Jason. Most of my basic reaction to the article has been expressed (maybe in a more combative manner) by another poster below.
EP
3/24/2015 05:54:22 am
"What's the difference between an 'author' and a 'writer'?"
Hypatia
3/24/2015 10:57:32 am
I probably will read the book. I found the NY Times article well-written, interesting, and with good photography. Nothing like those UFO or Loch Ness Monster books trying to persuade the reader on every page with witnesses' testimonies, gobbledygook arguments, and fuzzy-ugly unconvincing pictures. And I am curious about his theory. But nothing is going to convince me short of archaeological evidence. 3/22/2015 11:46:11 pm
Jason Colavito's comment is a typical case for "Read the book first before you comment." Mark Adams does not only investigate four possible locations, but rather visits a lot of academicians as well as amateurs who have to say something on the topic. In the end, Mark Adams jumps into a personal solution which is rather an invention hypothesis than a real location for Atlantis. Jason Colavito should be pleased ...
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EP
3/23/2015 03:24:53 am
"99% of all Atlantis hypotheses are nuts, but 100%? That is too easy."
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3/23/2015 03:50:25 am
EP, I do not discuss Plato's Atlantis on this level. If the differences are not obvious for you, I cannot help you. Period.
EP
3/23/2015 03:54:47 am
The differences aren't obvious to me in the sense that all these things are equally fictional. Of course, if you're only capable of talking to other True Believers, they you really cannot help me. Or anyone else, for that matter. Since you're not going to have anything to say that's worth saying. 3/23/2015 04:39:46 am
@EP:
EP
3/23/2015 04:47:36 am
Wow, that is the dumbest thing I ever read on this blog. And that includes posts by the likes of Gunn.
Clint Knapp
3/23/2015 04:16:08 am
I would hardly characterize Jason's reaction as "hostility" in any sense of the word. Having a vast knowledge base about the claims surrounding psuedo-history's take on the subject and being able to compare claims against a primary source (which Plato is, and remains, as far as Atlantis is concerned) cannot be called hostility; only accuracy.
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Clint Knapp
3/23/2015 04:24:29 am
Sorry; Pillars of Hercules, Strait of Gibraltar. 3/23/2015 04:35:36 am
@Clint Knapp:
EP
3/23/2015 04:45:44 am
Oh, Thorwald, you silly sausage... Look at you mentioning literally one word of my comment which sounds like it is in agreement with you and ignoring everything else I say...
Clint Knapp
3/23/2015 05:21:20 am
What Herodotus had to say about his own belief regarding the history of Egypt still has nothing to do with facts on the ground which cannot demonstrate Egypt existed as a conquerable entity 9,000 years before Plato wrote of Critias or that Athens did (and certainly we know where Athens is) and was a powerful enough entity in and of itself to liberate lands stretching from the Pillars as far as Egypt and up to Tyrrhenia (Central Italy).
EP
3/23/2015 05:52:09 am
Would you say that Thorwald's website is like kryptonite to taking him seriously? ;)
Clint Knapp
3/23/2015 06:28:01 am
I would say the "More or less senseless keyword text for search engines:" paragraph at the bottom of the first page fits that bill nicely, yes. Even in 2000, when the site went up, that was not an acceptable standard for search engine optimization.
Bob Jase
3/23/2015 06:59:22 am
Thorwald, you sweet little cherry-picker, I id not say evidence for an 11,000 year ol Athens is needed to prove Atlantis existed but it is to prove that Plato's version of Atlantis did because they are parts of the same story.
EP
3/23/2015 11:18:56 am
Atlantis Plato Goethe not-a-Nazi tits Call of Duty Justin Bieber :) 3/24/2015 10:26:01 am
@all: 3/23/2015 06:58:11 am
I fail to see how I expressed hostility to Atlantis theories in general. I criticized a specific claim Adams made about Kirchner's map, which is contradicted by the map itself, and I criticized Hubner for making claims that he did not support and then asking us to accept those claims as circumstantial evidence for Atlantis. The fact, however, remains that there is not a shred of evidence for Atlantis before Plato, and this makes it very difficult to ascribe any more truth to the story than to Euhemerus's Panchaea, which everyone admits is just a story.
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Hypatia
3/23/2015 08:41:05 am
But where o where are El Dorado, Arcadia and Shambhala? 3/23/2015 11:48:13 pm
@Jason Colavito:
EP
3/24/2015 02:40:17 am
It's also hard to get an open minded statement about leprechauns.
Only Me
3/23/2015 09:12:51 am
Let me get this straight. Mr. Franke argues that because Herodotus believed the Egyptians existed over 11,000 years ago, Atlantis can't be an invention of Plato due to the timeline Plato wrote.
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EP
3/23/2015 11:21:09 am
I wouldn't have compared him to Gunn for no reason :)
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SouthCoast
3/23/2015 09:24:05 am
"...a century ago an Arab writer..." Whose works must be axiomatically true as it's a well-known fact that there were no loons or idiots a century ago.
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EP
3/23/2015 11:22:22 am
Back then everyone was an Ascended Master :)
Reply
3/23/2015 11:49:08 pm
@all my mockers and deriders:
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EP
3/24/2015 02:34:55 am
You're wrong. What we showed is that you're a joke and not worth taking seriously. Or rather, you show it yourself and we showed that we see it (just like pretty much everyone else does).
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Clint Knapp
3/24/2015 02:41:03 am
Still you use a false assertion to back your claim. Let me break the year problem down for you, Thorwald:
Reply
3/24/2015 09:47:46 am
@Clint Knapp: 3/24/2015 10:04:24 am
@Clint Knapp - PS:
Hypatia
3/24/2015 03:41:42 am
Not so, not so. The question is, which parts of the story of Atlantis (or of the life of Jesus) do you take seriously, and what evidence -- or arguments in these cases mainly -- have you to back it up?
Reply
3/24/2015 10:16:21 am
@Hypatia:
Hypatia
3/24/2015 05:48:02 pm
But the fact that this island 'outside the Pillars of Heracles (Straights of Gibraltar),' -- 61,000 sq miles, 'facing the region of Gades (Cadiz)', which sunk and 'became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the (Atlantic) ocean,' -- is nowhere to be found in the said ocean... Is that just some more platonic flourish to be ignored as well? 3/25/2015 06:38:27 am
@Hypatia:
Hypatia
3/25/2015 12:26:54 pm
Good luck with your quest, Thornwald. You're so tenacious, you deserve to find your Atlantis.
Hypatia
3/25/2015 12:29:38 pm
sorry, typo, Thorwald.
Uncle Ron
3/24/2015 06:31:40 am
The bottom line is this: today, with ubiquitous communication of text and photos among individuals and virtually instantaneous television and internet coverage of current events, when the facts of an event (or the absence of facts) should be widely known by anyone interested, still we see the truth distorted by ignorance, laziness, and the bias or the agenda of those reporting it. To believe that an event thousands of years ago could be accurately transmitted orally for generations, and even when written down and translated repeatedly by generations more remain unchanged, is naïve. Those who wish us to take ancient tales even partially literally must bear the burden of proving, through accepted means such as archeology, that there is a basis for that position. There is no evidence for a factual Atlantis and every reason to believe that it is entirely a fable. Anyone who believes otherwise must provide facts, not wishful thinking, to back up their claims.
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3/24/2015 10:00:46 am
@Uncle Ron:
Only Me
3/24/2015 10:08:35 am
Alright, Mr. Franke.
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EP
3/24/2015 10:34:47 am
I'm heartened by the fact that everyone immediately sees exactly why Thorwald's argument is completely retarded.
Pacal
3/27/2015 03:22:43 am
Saying that Atlantis is an invention doesn't mean that Plato did not derive elements of it from the real world. For example much fantasy fiction is based / modeled quite clearly on Medieval Europe. That doesn't make it any less a fiction / invention. In Game of Thrones it is rather obvious that Westeros is modeled after Medieval Britain, but that doesn't make it any less an invention. Or another example the Galactic Empire of Isaac Asimov's Foundation series is also clearly modeled on the Roman Empire and clearly remains an invention.
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EP
3/24/2015 10:29:26 am
Thorwald, your argument totally makes sensr. Moreover, your Cratylus/Werther slashfic surely proves that Atlantis is real!
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Only Me
3/24/2015 11:06:39 am
Um...what?!
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EP
3/24/2015 11:43:25 am
It's sarcasm. And no, the Cratylus/Werther slashfic - fortunately! - isn't real, but Thorwald's argument does imply that existence of fan fiction makes it plausible that fiction is real.
Only Me
3/24/2015 08:40:30 pm
For those that may be confused as to what Mr. Franke is arguing, I'll break it down.
Reply
3/25/2015 06:54:20 am
@Only Me:
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Only Me
3/25/2015 07:50:22 am
Actually, Mr. Franke, you're the one with no argument to be made. 3/25/2015 08:17:10 am
@Only Me:
Only Me
3/25/2015 08:44:56 am
Wrong again, Mr. Franke. 3/25/2015 09:35:40 am
@Only Me:
Only Me
3/25/2015 11:41:34 am
"Why are you so fanatic in condemning me and my sound argument?" 3/25/2015 11:46:45 am
@Only Me:
Only Me
3/25/2015 11:57:43 am
Trapped? *Snicker* Gotcha? *Snort* Twisting your words? Please. I've been demonstrably fair to you. I haven't insulted you one time, though you didn't extend the same courtesy.
EP
3/25/2015 12:35:01 pm
Only Me, you've been nothing if not Christ-like in your patience! :D
Pacal
3/27/2015 03:59:39 am
how do we know Plato invented it? Well Plato claims Atlantis was larger than Libya and Asia put together and that it was out beyond the pillars of Heracles in the Atlantic. That is obviously made up. Regardless of how much or how little Plato may have drawn on folk tales, contemporary history etc., to construct his tale Plato's myth remains a myth in the same way Westeros is not England.
Pacal
3/27/2015 03:56:06 pm
Since Plato's dialogues have all mythical stories in them like the myth of metals and the cave. In Timaeus along with Atlantis has the myths of the soul and creation. And in all instances they are asserted has "true" we can rest assured that Plato deliberately wrote myths that were not literally true.
EP
3/25/2015 06:59:46 am
I'm surprised that people are still arguing with Thorwald. He is obviously both too dense and too much of a true believer to see how ridiculous his precious Herodotus argument really is.
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Clint Knapp
3/25/2015 07:59:22 am
It just gets worse with every "maybe" he piles in as a shocking lack of understanding creative process, philosophy, and even poetry (!) come into the picture.
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3/25/2015 08:18:27 am
@Clint Knapp:
Shane Sullivan
3/26/2015 01:00:16 pm
Well, in Thorwald's defense, you can't prove that there *wasn't* a man from Nantucket, only that evidence of his unprecedented endowment has not yet been found.
EP
3/25/2015 11:10:32 am
Thorwald C. Franke: The Edward Gibbon of Gunn Sinclairs!
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Bob Jase
3/27/2015 09:50:44 am
Dammit, I'm not supposed to laugh this loud at work!
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EP
3/29/2015 11:40:06 am
Thanks! I do what I can! :) Your comment will be posted after it is approved.
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