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Magazine: German Pornographer Faked "Jesus' Wife Gospel" Fragment to Live Out "Da Vinci Code" Fantasy

6/19/2016

87 Comments

 
I know I had said that I’d be devoting Fridays this summer to discussing the good work that others are doing, but this Friday I ran a bit short on time to catch up on my reading. So let me make up for it today by discussing an article equal parts fascinating and devastating about the apparent forgery of the so-called “Gospel of Jesus’ Wife” papyrus fragment that made headlines in 2012. According to Ariel Sabar, writing in the new edition of The Atlantic, the entire affair was inspired by the toxic stew of fringe history, with special appearances by ancient astronaut theorist Erich von Däniken, Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code, and that perennial favorite, hatred of academics who are allegedly conspiring against an unsung genius to protect pseudoscientific paradigms.
In 2012 the scholarly world went into a tizzy after Harvard scholar Karen L. King published a small fragment written in Coptic which was provisionally dated to the fourth century CE and featured Jesus calling a woman, presumably Mary Magdalene, “my wife.” Skeptics doubted the text was genuinely ancient, but no one could quite prove that it wasn’t due to the ancient carbon dating of the papyrus, though the ungrammatical and plagiarized Coptic strongly implied a modern forgery.
 
I want to strenuously recommend that you read the article, which is a terrific piece of investigative reporting and crafts a devastating case for when, why, and how the Jesus’ Wife Gospel fragment had been forged. I can’t do justice in summary to what Sabar found out in his investigation, but a few key points stand out:
 
The alleged forger (who denies the charge) is identified as Walter Fritz, an expatriate German small business owner and former recreational pornographer specializing in creating gangbang videos starring his wife, a self-described psychic clairvoyant whom the couple billed as “America’s #1 Slut Wife.” She wrote a “channeled” book of “universal truths” that she learned from the lips of angels.
 
Fritz had been a student of Egyptology in a Master’s program in Germany in the early 1990s, where he developed a rudimentary knowledge of Coptic, before dropping out of school after rumors spread that he had “borrowed” others’ ideas for an academic article on Akhenaten. He went on to develop a hatred for academia that he nurtured at a lecture by Erich von Däniken. Fritz says he bought the Jesus’ Wife Gospel​ papyrus from a von Däniken fan he met in the early ’90s. Although Fritz claims not believe in ancient astronauts, von Däniken was on the tip of his tongue when he tried to explain his drive to explore fringe history, which culminated in him and his wife becoming adherents of the Holy Bloodline Conspiracy. 
 
Sabar speculates, based on interviews with Fritz, that he and his wife forged the fragment in order to both seek revenge on academia and to live out a Da Vinci Code fantasy in which their libertine sexuality could be justified through an appeal to a more female-centric form of Christianity. “The Gnostic texts that allow women a discipleship and see Jesus more as a spiritual person and not as a demigod—these texts are probably the more relevant ones,” Fritz said. He added that while having sex with his wife, whom he believes to have prophetic powers, she began to scream out in what he believes was Jesus’ native Aramaic.
 
Sabar believes that Fritz took the forged fragment to King because the Harvard scholar’s feminist scholarship and books about Mary Magdalene in the Gnostic tradition made her an easy target for a text that would seem to promote the existence of a feminist form of Christianity. King came out of the article looking very bad, as someone who failed to do basic due diligence on the fragment, to the extent of never bothering to check into Fritz’s background or the provenance of the papyrus fragment.
 
King initially refused to accept that the fragment was a forgery when Sabar tried to seek comment from her in March. She actually refused to hear evidence that the piece was a forgery, saying that issues of provenance were not relevant to her research. Indeed, Sabar said she claimed to be unaware that provenance could be critically investigated at all. But after reading the article, and how bad it made her look, she reversed herself and on Thursday conceded that forgery is the most likely scenario.
 
It’s rather astonishing that so much effort went into creating something that would not change history as much as some of its supporters claim. The existence of a belief in the wife of Jesus in the fourth century wouldn’t impact earlier history in any meaningful way, since it implies nothing about the historical Jesus, or even about the formative years of the Church. It would have been an interesting heresy, but little more.
 
The trouble is that the fragment didn’t really fit with the broader evidence as it is currently known. The Church Fathers were exhaustive in their refutation of heresies, criticizing every possible variation of Christian belief. And many of these alternative beliefs find voice across multiple texts. Consider, for example, the claim that Jesus did not die on the cross but substituted another in his place. Originating in the claims of Basilides, a Gnostic, we can find reference to the idea in Irenaeus’ Refutation of All Heresies 1.24.4, in the Nag Hammadi codices’ Second Treatise of the Great Seth, and even in the Qur’an 4:157-158. By contrast, there isn’t a single mention of Jesus’ wife in any ancient literature. The first mention of anything similar occurs in Mormon arguments about Jesus’ alleged polygamy and likely children, followed by Louis Martin’s nineteenth century allegation that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had a son with her. The closest thing we find before that is the statement of a medieval priest that the Cathars believed that an evil twin of Jesus had taken Mary Magdalene as concubine, based not on a secret Holy Bloodline conspiracy but rather on an idiosyncratic reading of John 8:3 that would make the evil Jesus the one who took an unnamed woman, traditionally identified with the Magdalene, in adultery.
 
Similarly, the ancient libel that Jesus was the son of a Roman soldier who raped the Virgin Mary finds voice in a wide range of texts, from Origen’s Contra Celsum 1.32 to the Talmud and a satirical parody of the Gospels.
 
If there had been a widespread, or even sufficiently popular local, tradition of a married Jesus, surely the heretics, the Jews, the Muslims, and the other assorted critics of mainstream Christianity would have mentioned it. It isn’t completely impossible that a local tradition went otherwise unrecorded and unobserved, but it is very odd that no one among the heretic hunters of the ancient world and the faiths that challenged Christian claims noticed.
87 Comments
Time Machine
6/19/2016 08:14:46 am

An illegal substance cannot marry a woman

Reply
A Buddhist
6/19/2016 11:07:26 am

But a God can. Why a god would want that is beyond me. But then, the Tipitaka asserts with ample proof that most gods are fools.

Reply
Titus pullo
6/19/2016 10:36:00 am

King not accepting it as a forgery? I about fell over laughing. There is so much garbage that comes from the social science academics that facts are often too much for fields rooted in Marxism and statism. yes a Harvard feminist fooled by evidence that supports her wacky theories shows non hard science and engineering fields have become a joke. How is this women any different than Scott Wolter? Jesus wife or knights Templars in Minnesota? Any difference?

Reply
Not the Comte de Saint Germain
6/19/2016 02:14:42 pm

Can you really not see the difference? It's hardly implausible that a first-century Jewish man would have a wife. Neither is it absurd that some Christian sect would believe he had a wife, although, as Jason says, it's unlikely that the heresiologists would never have mentioned such a sect. The Templars-in-Minnesota crap is on an entirely different level.

Reply
Time Machine
6/19/2016 04:08:56 pm

>>> Jewish man

Jesus Christ was an incorporeal being.

This failed abysmally within Christian evangelism - so the ceremony of the mass was developed into a historical narrative - and look how it took off.

It developed a life of its own that continues on to 2016.


Clint Knapp
6/20/2016 07:43:01 am

This just in: Lame Troll Shoots Self in Foot:

"An illegal substance cannot marry a woman"

"Jesus Christ was an incorporeal being."

So which is it? Is Jesus a drug or a being without body at all? How can one be both a substance and insubstantial?

Simple answer: Our resident troll is just up to his usual inconsequential bullshit - contradicting himself without notice.

Maybe laying off the drugs once in a while would help our resident troll form a coherent argument. Maybe not. It may be too late.

Time Machine
6/20/2016 08:24:00 am

Clint Knapp,

What's your problem?

The phantom and psychedelic drug experience is cognate.

Paul did not see a physical Jesus Christ when he experienced his Vision.

Paul did not know the existence of any physical Jesus Christ.

To Paul, Jesus Christ was an Agent of Enlightenment as an incorporeal being.

Time Machine
6/20/2016 08:35:39 am

Jesus Christ telepathed to Paul, "It is hard to kick against the pricks"

That was an ancient Greek proverb that doubled-up as a pun on the drug that Paul experienced.

Clint Knapp
6/20/2016 08:51:15 am

Let's put it in terms you might be able to understand:

You have as much proof of Jesus as a drug hallucination as you claim others do of a historical man-Jesus.

You want to believe in the all-mighty drug gods, so you reach for every possible angle to fit your narrative. You have no proof, but speak as though you have the absolute truth of it all. You do not. You have only your narrow opinion backed up by nothing more substantial than other people who agree with you (or more appropriately, people whose writings you agree with).

So just stop already. No one cares. Go write a book about it if you can form a coherent thought long enough.

Time Machine
6/20/2016 09:04:50 am

The proof lies throughout the Bible - from Genesis to Revelation, from Moses to Jesus Christ. The references to the hallucinogenic origins of the Judeo-Christian religion are found throughout the Bible.

You need to know the identity of the drug, how to extract it, and how to prepare it.

When you find that information, there you will see the proof and it is incontrovertible.

Whether people know about it or not - every crucifix - whether worn as a necklace or a decoration in the house - is the drug.

Time Machine
6/20/2016 11:12:45 am

Don't worry Clint, mainstream Christian scholarship won't ever accept or endorse it. It would involve the abolition of all mainstream Christian scholarship.

Even though a demonstration would be very easy to do.

Clint Knapp
6/20/2016 08:01:40 pm

Uh huh. So, there's this drug you like for an explanation to all things and you backform a reading of the Bible looking for symbolism that confirms your presupposed hypothesis.

Nope. Not at all like Ancient Aliens or Scott Wolter's Templars or any other fringe hack job. Not one bit.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 01:57:20 am

Clint Knapp,

Separate the Christian religion from the eucharist and the celebration of the Mass.
Go ahead and do that.

Sick of your Drivel
6/21/2016 02:53:52 pm

"Separate the Christian religion from the eucharist and the celebration of the Mass.
Go ahead and do that."

Clint doesn't need to, Luther already did, or are you too high to remember basic history?

Time Machine
6/21/2016 03:49:07 pm

Gee, there are Quakers whose "churches" have no pulpits or altars.

I don't think these multitudinous examples of Christianity have any basis in origins.

Sick of your Drivel
6/21/2016 04:29:59 pm

Way to keep arbitrarily changing the definitions that you require of us. You claimed the origin of Christianity was drugs. Stop contradicting yourself. I'm surprised Jason hasn't deleted your comments in this thread like he has in numerous others.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 07:14:46 pm

The eucharist is the body and blood of Christ that is consumed by the worshippers. The drug in original version of Christianity before it evolved into something else,

Alex C
6/19/2016 02:23:37 pm

Majority of historians and scholars claim artefact is fake using analysis of the text.

Lab technicians claim it might be real due to 'hard' scientific tests on the parchment.

Professor sides with the lab techs and suddenly that's evidence of how the 'social sciences' are a laughingstock thanks to Marxism and feminism?

There are a lot of comparisons with Scott Wolter, but pretty much all of them are in slight favour of Professor King. Holding out blind hope and trusting the forensics isn't as bad as doing your own made up pseudo-forensics. Backing up hard to prove positions with cherry picked scholarship is... probably more reprehensible to me than just making nonsense up but its still in a higher class of brazen lying.

Within its closed walls, history as a discipline is quite good at being balanced and able to offer measured opposition to the press courting sensationalists within its discipline. Comparatively, when physicists court the with media with unprovable sci fi worm hole crap the whole discipline is generally happy to clap applause as long as the outrageous claims aren't being made by a engineer in a shed.

Reply
spookyparadigm
6/19/2016 03:13:27 pm

"Majority of historians and scholars claim artefact is fake using analysis of the text.

Lab technicians claim it might be real due to 'hard' scientific tests on the parchment.

Professor sides with the lab techs and suddenly that's evidence of how the 'social sciences' are a laughingstock thanks to Marxism and feminism?"

:) Nicely put.

Time Machine
6/19/2016 04:13:07 pm

Even if the German couple did fake the parchment, there's nothing in that article to prove that. The German couple probably got the parchment from a dodgy dealer in the first place.

Witness how Oded Golan was acquitted of forging the James Ossuary. It's an obvious fake, but it cannot be proved it was faked by Oded Golan.

Time Machine
6/19/2016 04:14:30 pm

The second part of the inscription on the James Ossuary, that is.

Alex Stallwitz
6/19/2016 04:58:12 pm

King in this story comes as across as an woman who really wanted the parchment to be true because she had an ideological axe to grind and now either refuses to admit she was tricked or is in damage control mode. I think like an lot of others, her own biases and desires led her astray

Reply
orang
6/19/2016 06:49:30 pm

me not caring a whit about religion, why do people even care if jesus was married or not? i believe that he was a real man, and an exceptional one at that, but wtf?

Reply
Only Me
6/19/2016 07:14:36 pm

The most damning evidence comes from Fritz himself. By trying to persuade Sabar to write a fictional work Sabar recognizes as another version of /The Da Vinci Code/, starring Fritz as Robert Langdon, he pretty much overplayed his hand.

I had to shake my head at King. She didn't want to know the fragment could have been a forgery? Why?

I give Sabar two thumbs up for his investigation. Now, if we could get more journalists to do the same for other fringe claims, we might have a winning formula.

Reply
John
6/19/2016 10:16:04 pm

Lets hope there can be more journalists in the future that do so. Until then, it's nice to know we have Ariel Sabar and Jason, cause if they weren't doing this all these charlatans would be getting away with their lies scot-free. This post shows just how much they don't get enough of the credit they deserve.

Reply
Time Machine
6/20/2016 04:53:18 am

There is no evidence in that article that the fragment was forged by the German couple. Some people here are as damning with their wishful thinking as anyone else.

Pop Goes the Reason
6/20/2016 03:14:08 am

Another fragment of the manuscript has been discovered! We can now reveal exclusively that the full chapter and verse runs:

"And Jesus said, my wife is departed hence, yea even unto Italy" and saith Peter, "Genoa?" And Jesus replied, "Veriliy, especially in the Biblical sense"

Reply
Time Machine
6/20/2016 04:55:32 am

Jesus said "I could not have had a wife because I was a phantom. I was developed into a historical character during the second century. Read the literature of the first century - there are absolutely no references to my life".

Reply
terry the censor
6/20/2016 02:21:16 pm

> Read the literature of the first century - there are absolutely no references to my life"

Except in Mark and Josephus.

Time Machine
6/20/2016 05:00:15 pm

> Except in Mark and Josephus

It's only a theory that Mark was written in the first century. The earliest extant Gospel fragment is a few verses of John (Rylands Fragment P52, discovered in 1920).

As for Josephus, the reference in Antiquities to Jesus is not contained in the exact corresponding passages in Wars of the Jews and is most likely a Christian interpolation. The earliest extant fragments of Josephus date from the 10th century (yes, the 10th century).

terry the censor
6/20/2016 06:25:32 pm

Time Machine, you moved the goalposts. Originally you wrote...

> Read the literature of the first century

...then limited it to earliest extant copies of first century literature. Scholars -- and every other rational person -- would never ever describe Josephus as a 10th century writer, as you suggest he is.

You are plainly being dishonest.

> the reference in Antiquities to Jesus is not contained in the exact corresponding passages in Wars of the Jews

Irrelevant. Antiquities was written decades later. Nothing would prevent a historian from adding material to a later work on the same subject.

There are egregious Christian interpolations in Josephus, for instance where Jesus is declared the messiah, yet, paradoxically, this is not developed or brought up again by the Jewish historian, despite the massive importance of the messiah in Jewish history! But scholars generally agree that the other reference to Jesus is authentic.

Shane Sullivan
6/20/2016 06:46:53 pm

"But scholars generally agree that the other reference to Jesus is authentic."

Terry, anyone believes in first-century references to a corporeal Jesus is a closet Christian. Everyone knows that.

Shane Sullivan
6/20/2016 09:22:20 pm

Sorry, anyone *who* believes in first-century etc.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 01:32:15 am

Terry the censor,

The claim that the gospels originated during the first century is only a theory. It did not exist during the 19th century when Biblical scholars agreed the gospels dated from the mid second-century because the first references to them was made by Justin Martyr circa AD 130.

As for the passage in Josephus, there are Jewish scholars who believe they were forged by Eusebius (4th century) . Christians who accessed the works of Josephus before Eusebius did not mention the accounts relating to Jesus.

The reason why no manuscripts of Josephus date from before the 10th century is because they were full of Christian propaganda - they contained references to things like the appearance of Jesus, references to the Virgin Mary, etc. You only need to look at the Christian stuff in the Slavonic manuscripts, all of which is imaginary and rejected by everyone, to see that the works of Josephus were pillaged by the Christians.

The surviving references to Jesus Christ in the works of Josephus were those made by Eusebius and because his references to them survive in his works.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 01:53:28 am

Terry the censor (again),

It's the current fad now for conservative Christian scholars to claim that the references in Josephus are partly authentic/partly faked. This was started by Geza Vermes during the early 1980s on the "Jesus: The Evidence" channel 4 television series.

No two scholars share the same interpretation and it bears all the hallmarks of Rorschach.

terry the censor
6/21/2016 11:19:51 am

> Christians who accessed the works of Josephus before Eusebius did not mention the accounts relating to Jesus.

Time Machine, your wild analysis leaves out Origen, who cites Jesus passages in Josephus before the time of Eusebius.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Origen_and_Eusebius

Time Machine
6/21/2016 12:17:39 pm

Terry the censor,

Origen did not provide any direct quotes and was working from memory.

Bad memory because the claims made by Origen cannot be corroborated.

terry the censor
6/21/2016 02:35:03 pm

Time Machine, you are baldly showing yourself to be a liar.

Origen complains at some length about how Jesus figures in the history written by Josephus, a depiction at odds with the later Christian interpolations, thus attesting to an unmolested, early version of Josephus that disproves your made-up fantasy about Eusebius. Origen's account justifies the academic concensus of some genuine Jesus material in Josephus, a first-century writer.

But like most fabulists, when presented with clear evidence that contradicts your claim, you arbitrarily make up rules that you hope will insulate you from criticism. But you succeed only in making yourself look like a sham.

What excuse will you come up with next? That you want to hear it from Josephus' own lips?

Time Machine
6/21/2016 02:53:56 pm

terry the censor,

If you want a second opinion, the late theologian F. F. Bruce thought Origen suffered from a memory lapse.

Origen did not quote from Josephus but was working from memory.

And yes, wouldn't it be nice to have an early edition of Josephus untouched by Christian scribes for comparison.

terry the censor
6/21/2016 04:06:46 pm

> Origen did not quote from Josephus but was working from memory.

How do you know he was working from memory? You imply that without direct quotation, Origen would, necessarily, be unable to paraphrase accurately a book. That is not a logically necessary conclusion.

But let's say Origen didn't have a copy of Antiquities open in front of him as he wrote. How would you know if his memory was right or wrong?

You "know" because you don't care about evidence or logic.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 05:07:11 pm

terry the censor,

Origen probably wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah because he believed Vespasian to be the Messiah, Josephus said so in his writings. It was as a result of a vision that Josephus prophesied Vespasian to become future Emperor.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 05:13:36 pm

"But now, what did most elevate them (the Jews) in undertaking this war (AD66-70), was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how ‘about that time one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth’. The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular: and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judaea." (Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 6).

Time Machine
6/21/2016 05:44:38 pm

"Thou, O Vespasian, art Caesar and emperor, thou, and this thy son. Bind me now still faster, and keep me for thyself, for thou, O Caesar, art not only lord over me, but over the land and the sea, and all mankind; and certainly I deserve to be kept in closer custody than I am now in, in order to be punished, if I rashly affirm anything of God." (Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 3)

terry the censor
6/21/2016 08:24:09 pm

Forgive me, TM, if I privilege the word of the majority of scholars over you, who argued Josephus was a 10th century writer.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 08:28:10 pm

terry the censor,

I have demonstrated that what scholars claim are theories and not facts, and that those same scholars dress-up their theories as facts, and they like to shun and despise anyone who disagrees with them.

terry the censor
6/21/2016 10:08:04 pm

TM, all you have demonstrated is that you are as arbitrary in assessing evidence as you impute to scholars.

The looney doth project too much, methinks.

Time Machine
6/22/2016 02:06:54 am

terry the censor.

Those who worship and adore the passages about Jesus Christ in "Antiquities of the Jews" don't seem to compare them against what Josephus wrote about Vespasian.

David Bradbury
6/20/2016 03:27:20 am

As the Atlantic article points out, this case has a lot in common with the Mark Hoffman forgeries- and I'll add the Vinland Map case too. Academia really needs to understand that the best forgers have an extremely impressive multi-disciplinary skill-set (but that the skills involved are inevitably somewhat similar from case to case).

Reply
Time Machine
6/20/2016 04:58:05 am

Please give the reference in the article where it provides proof that the fragment was a forgery. It only provides insinuation, not evidence.

Just like all the accusations that were made against Oded Golan, who was acquitted.

Reply
David Bradbury
6/20/2016 08:57:03 am

I didn't specify that the fragment is a forgery, I merely pointed out that the case has a lot in common with at least two confirmed forgery cases.

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
6/20/2016 12:27:26 pm

There was already strong evidence that the Gospel of Jesus' Wife was a forgery as early as 2014. It is written in a dialect of Coptic that died out a few centuries earlier than the radiocarbon date of the papyrus it was written on. It came with a fragment of the Gospel of John in Coptic that was written in the same hand and dialect and with the same instrument. The John fragment's text, including the line breaks, were copied exactly from a widely available online edition of the text.

You can find more about these details on several blogs by papyrologists. (Yes, Time Machine, one of them is evangelical, but the others aren't.)

https://alinsuciu.com/tag/gospel-of-jesus-wife/

http://ntweblog.blogspot.de/search/label/Gospel%20of%20Jesus%27%20Wife

http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/search/label/Gospel%20of%20Jesus%27%20Wife

That said, although I think King was led astray by her own biases, there were reasons for her to consider the fragment genuine at first. The papyrus it was written on did genuinely date back to the first millennium. The ink had the same composition as ink used in Egypt at that time. When she asked papyrologists like Roger Bagnall about whether she should publish it (back in 2012 ), they backed her up. Most importantly, few people would have had the skill to forge the text. That may well be why she didn't say definitively that it was a forgery until Sabar's story proved there was a culprit with the knowledge and motivation to pull off the fake. Until then she seems to have considered the question open.

Time Machine
6/20/2016 02:23:17 pm

The Gospel of Jesus' Wife fragment is an obvious fake, but despite all his researches Ariel Sabar has been unable to give the real deal details. He says as much on his video.

Walter Fritz claimed he got the fragment from a German couple who themselves could have obtained it from a dodgy Middle Eastern dealer.




Klaus
6/20/2016 02:57:06 pm

The resident blog clown is getting more and more annoying IMO

Reply
Time Machine
6/20/2016 05:01:45 pm

Bugbear!

Reply
Sick of your drivel
6/21/2016 03:44:18 pm

At least he knows who he is...

Kal
6/20/2016 03:06:08 pm

Dan Brown forged his fictional story from other sources. The papyrus is also a fake.

This does not mean that 2 billion people on Earth follow a fake Bible Jesus. These are two completely different rationales. It takes tremendous moxie to imply that billions of people are wrong, and one opinion is somehow righteous, where it cannot be.

If Jesus had a wife. someone would have mentioned it to mock him, such as the Parisees, who didn't like him.

His Bride was the Church.

Then again, feeding the trolls is feeding the trolls.

Reply
Time Machine
6/20/2016 05:04:48 pm

>billions of people are wrong

I can prove it - billions of people believing one thing does not make it right,


Reply
Only Me
6/20/2016 06:51:50 pm

This should be interesting. I haven't seen you accomplish any of your boasts yet, but, this should be interesting.

Oh, and repetition of argument does not make it right, either.

John
6/20/2016 10:52:54 pm

Time Machine. Yes in fact it does.

Go ask 1 billion people if drinking water makes them less thirsty, then you can see if when 1 billion people believe something it is correct.

Also, if you do that maybe you could post less since you will be so busy with your polling...ready..set...go!

Time Machine
6/21/2016 01:40:08 am

Hey John,

The origin of civilization rests upon human intelligence.
I think you overlooked that.

The earliest leaders of people were priests and kings and they were inspired by sacred hallucinogenic potions.

Witness the very earliest religious artwork on Babylonian cylinder seals. Plants surrounded by humans,

Those Babylonian reliefs showing priests holding opium poppies, I sure would like to see the translations of the inscriptions beneath.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 01:44:30 am

Only Me,

>Oh, and repetition of argument does not make it right, either

And I always thought you were an echo on this blog.

The central aspect of Christianity is the celebration of the Mass, and that is to do with the eucharist that is the body and blood of Christ consumed by worshippers --- going back all the way to the Apostle Paul.

And the bread has to be unleavened,

Only Me
6/21/2016 02:48:01 am

"The origin of civilization rests upon human intelligence.
I think you overlooked that."

This coming from the guy who claims the origin of civilization rests upon drugs. I think YOU overlooked that. Even within your own echo chamber, you can't stop contradicting yourself.

So, when are we going to see that proof you say you have? You said, and I quote, "I can prove it." Let's see what YOU have that doesn't rely on source material from the same people you claim to be ahead of.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 05:00:13 am

Human intelligence was piqued by taking drugs,

Time Machine
6/21/2016 05:08:37 am

I can prove that the origin of the Judeo-Christian religion was founded on a psychedelic drug - it's there in plain open sight in the pages of the Bible --- from Genesis to Revelation,

I can prove the identity of the drug and how its extraction and preparation corresponds with the myths in the Bible.

The information is so simple it is laughable. It's so easy to understand.

But I will not disclose the full information for 2 reasons, those being the following:

1)- The devastating consequences,

2)- People choose to believe in a mythical wonder-worker and miracle-worker who never existed during the first century and this foolishness has engrained itself so much people will carry on believing in this absurdity even if they will privately believe otherwise.

In a nutshell, I could disclose the information, the believers will privately believe, but will never own up to believing it because they are so addicted to the myth.

Only Me
6/21/2016 06:58:51 am

"But I will not disclose the full information..."

Because you have *nothing* to disclose. You've made it your goal to pollute this blog with anti-Christian drivel, and now that I've given you the opportunity to put your money where your mouth is, TWICE, you're making excuses.

No one will believe you...because all you have are empty claims and talking points.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 09:15:54 am

The Bible
It's all in the Mind

BUT I KNOW HOW TO DRAW THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

Time Machine
6/21/2016 09:17:39 am

I know how to make Christ bleed his blood for me.
I know how to draw it out.

Only Me
6/21/2016 09:23:13 am

THEN STOP PULLING A J. HUTTON PULITZER. You've made some grand sweeping claims. Put up or shut up.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 10:19:07 am

I can feel and experience what the original Christians felt and experienced,

All you've got is substitute rubbish detached from the original version.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 10:25:41 am

There's also the issue that Rationalist scepticism has nothing in common with Biblical-Apologetic scepticism.

CSI does not embrace the Bible or any religious beliefs
http://www.csicop.org/

Only Me
6/21/2016 11:09:37 am

As with baseball, you have three strikes. You're out.

I'm done. I just wanted everyone to see what I, and many others, already knew. You got nothing.

An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2016 11:27:38 am

Do we have any evidence that Time Machine actually exists and isn't a fabrication of 24th-century French Mason drug apologists?

Time Machine
6/21/2016 11:50:10 am

IT IS COGNANT...RORSCHACH IS WHAT YOU ARE...INTELLIGENCE COMES FROM DRUGS...I AM INTELLIGENT! GOT IT?

Time Machine
6/21/2016 12:13:46 pm

Rationalist Skepticism
CSI does not embrace the Bible or any religious beliefs
http://www.csicop.org/

Dodging the issue - that's why runs out.

Sick of your drivel
6/21/2016 12:29:03 pm

"Dodging the issue - that's why runs out." Ok, that's a little incoherent. Even for you.

Sick of your drivel
6/21/2016 12:32:21 pm

I must admit there is something called Rationalist Skepticism, despite my dislike of it.

An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2016 12:38:16 pm

That's EXACTLY what FrancoMasonDrugBot would say! WAKE UP SHEEPLE!

An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2016 12:39:41 pm

I too must admit there is something called Rationalist Skepticism, despite my dislike of it.

An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2016 02:42:37 pm

Being a skeptic, I don't have to admit to anything that's merely asserted, especially by FrancoMasonDrugBot, whether I like it or not.

You on the other hand are a vile cur with the manners of an especially unhygienic, venereally rotten boar, which is ironic because if you had tusk or fang you wouldn't resort to pretending to be what you're not.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 03:20:20 pm

>>>Being a skeptic<<<

I've heard that one before.

>>> FrancoMasonDrugBot <<<

That says it all


An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2016 03:36:25 pm

Since it says it all we can rest peacefully knowing that you'll say no more.

John
6/21/2016 05:49:28 pm

Nope, I didn't overlook anything. You missed, again, the really in your face point I made by using water as an example. You lack critical thinking skills.

Sad. So much talking but so little said. You should post less it is embarrassing for you.

Time Machine
6/21/2016 07:11:12 pm

Hey John,

I can snaffle everything you just said - you're sure of yourself for nothing,

V
6/21/2016 07:49:49 pm

John, while GIGO there is the most annoying of creatures, nearly enough to make one believe in aliens just so one can deny that he is human without insulting any other Earth beings, your statement about proof is also false logic. The fact that a group, whether it's a small group or a large group, is correct about one thing does not extrapolate to mean that they must be correct about EVERYTHING.

I can, in fact, prove to you that a billion people MUST be wrong about something.

You see, there are in the world right now around 2.2 billion Christions, 1.6 billion Muslims, around a billion secularists/atheists/agnostics/irreligious, and a billion Hindus. These various viewpoints on religion are exclusionary and irreconcilable. You cannot be an atheist AND a deist at the same time. Christianity and Islam both forbid their adherents from believing in any other religion.

Therefore, at least three of these groups are wrong in their religious viewpoints. Possibly all four!

As for the moxie of declaring that numerous people are wrong and one opinion is right, isn't that PRECISELY what Jesus did? And an entire religion sprang up because of it, whose BASIC, most CORE belief is that Jesus was RIGHT about that?

Now, I personally can't say whether Jesus was real or not, unlike GIGO up there. Maybe he was real, maybe he wasn't. Being of that "irreligious" group, and pagan when I was religious, I really don't give a rat's ass, other than from academic curiosity.

On the subject of Jesus having a wife, honestly I think if he did, that information didn't actually survive the building of the Church, because I think we would have seen the heresy-hunters going after it as Jason said. But why would the Pharisees have mentioned a wife to mock Jesus, when having a wife would have been a perfectly normal thing to do? I could make the argument that the Pharisees should have mentioned Jesus NOT having a wife to mock him, and it would have the same credibility: not much.

Now please excuse me, I feel dirty after having actually had to AGREE with GIGO, even slightly.

Reply
Time Machine
6/21/2016 08:14:30 pm

You overlook the obvious that Christianity was an Apocalyptic religion trying to get God to end the world. On that basis alone there was no need for Jesus Christ to be married, and also was the reason why sex would no longer have been an issue if the agenda was the Apocalypse and the End of the World.

DaveR
6/22/2016 12:13:45 pm

Who can say the Greeks and Romans were wrong in their religious beliefs? Were the Druids, Egyptians and Vikings wrong as well?

Religious beliefs may change over time, the fanaticism of some of the followers does not.

Rook
6/21/2016 01:09:54 am

Lesson: Be very suspicious of the authenticy of an ancient document presented by a person who believes either to be a psychic or married to a psychic!

Reply

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      • Extreme History >
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        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Remarkable Discoveries Within the Sphinx (Hoax)
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
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        • The Shaver Mystery >
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