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Martin Sweatman Claims Göbekli Tepe Was a "University" Teaching Civilization to Africa, Europe, and Asia

8/6/2019

55 Comments

 
Look who’s back… again. Martin Sweatman wrote an academic journal article back in 2017 alleging that the ancient temple site of Göbekli Tepe contained carvings recording the impact of a comet at the end of the Younger Dryas and that its iconography is derived from the zodiac, a set of constellations first seen in the historical record 10,000 years later in Babylon. In December Sweatman expanded his claims into a full-length book, PreHistory Decoded, which he is promoting this month on Graham Hancock’s website. Despite the passing of the years, the quality of the evidence for Sweatman’s position has yet to grow more convincing since it remains founded on speculative (pseudo-)astronomy and the books of Andrew Collins and Graham Hancock, whom he praises by name as “closer to the truth” than actual scholars.
​The key line in Sweatman’s article for Hancock’s website describes the origins of his ideas about Göbekli Tepe: “As soon as I saw Hancock’s interpretation of Pillar 43 from Göbekli Tepe in his book Magicians of the Gods, I knew he could be on to something incredibly important.” To which: I identified Hancock as the source for Sweatman’s claims back in 2017, when he was much cagier about it. (Also: He specifically claimed Hancock’s frenemy Andrew Collins as his inspiration back then.) Now, that claim is has been massaged into praise for Hancock when mainstream interest in his ideas dried up and he chose to make his fortune appealing to the “alternative history” crowd.
 
Full disclosure: Sweatman and I discussed some of his claims on Twitter earlier this year, and he insisted that I could not understand them without purchasing his book. “Buy my book” always sounds like great science to me. I read his journal article. If he couldn’t make a convincing case in an academic journal, why would I want to read more nothing?
 
In the new article, Sweatman decries the mainstream understanding of astronomical history and insists (to use his favorite verb of negative connotation) that Mesopotamian constellations are only the latest possible origin point, suggesting that we are justified in believing constellations to date back 10,000 or more years further. It is not impossible that some constellations might have persisted in a general way over time, but examining just the differences between the Babylonian constellations and their adaptation into the Greek system (where they seem to have merged with earlier Mediterranean astronomical systems) clearly shows that there are enormous burdens to overcome in proving that constellations remained unchanged for longer than any other piece of knowledge in human history. Nor does Sweatman explain why Göbekli Tepe would have the same constellations as Babylon, given that other ancient cultures of the Near East such as Egypt had very different star groupings.
 
Sweatman has a lot of weird things to say about constellations. He claims that for 30,000 years, down to around 9,000 BCE (you know, hint, hint, the time of the fall of Atlantis) Cancer the Crab was seen as a cat and Capricorn as a bull. Therefore, by adjusting the zodiac to match his preferences, he can produce utterly ridiculous results
In fact, because these animal symbols have been used for so long over such a wide area of Eurasia, it seems likely that they could have found their way to the Americas. So, it is not unreasonable to suggest that the Jaguar Warriors of the Olmec and Maya, circa 1,500 to 0 BC, are also associated with the constellation Cancer, which was the summer solstice constellation throughout this period. And perhaps the Eagle warriors of the later Aztec civilisation were associated with the constellation Sagittarius, which has since been the winter solstice constellation.
​Or jaguars were the biggest and most important predator in the Olmec heartland. You know, the big impressive cat they saw all the damn time. As for eagles, well, we needn’t speak of them since the Great Seal of the United States has one, speaking to the similarly common use of that giant impressive bird that flies around in the sky. But by all means, do tell us how common animals are secret Old World star lore.
 
Indeed, look at how his “find-and-replace” methodology allows him to substitute in any animals he wishes in order to achieve a predetermined result:
Now fast-forward thousands of years to the Pashupati Seal, found in the ruins of ancient Mohenjo-daro, part of the Indus Valley civilisation. It depicts one of the earliest known occurrences of the seated horned god, a symbol found across the Indo-European region. Conventional dating of the seal is quite imprecise, placing it in one of the Bronze Age periods. But with our new zodiac, we can date it much more accurately. Here we again have four animals – the bull (or buffalo), elephant (or mammoth), tiger and rhino representing the constellations Capricornus, Libra, Leo and Taurus respectively. It is very interesting to see that in North India at this time, the feline symbol had already switched to represent Leo, while the bull continued to represent Capricornus. The elephant/mammoth replaces the bird in its representing Libra, which is consistent with mammoth paintings in European Palaeolithic art.
​How does he know? (And why does he ignore the two deer?) He assumed a date or guessed at one and then substituted animals to get the “right” result, in this case one based on another assumption—that the ancient proto-Indo-Europeans could calculate the precession of the equinoxes (the slow apparent backward movement of the stars over a 26,000-year period) more accurately than anyone down to the eighteenth or nineteenth century. He uses Hancock’s idea that precession is a “code” for marking dates by depicting the sky at any given century. Hancock, in turn, based it on the book Hamlet’s Mill, and I have previously shown that this was a fraud based on its authors’ limited knowledge of the history of astrology. They didn’t understand that the Ice Age astrological system they claimed to have discovered was actually the work of Abu Ma‘shar al-Balkhi, who invented it around 850 CE.
 
Most of Sweatman’s current article simply repeats his 2017 claims, so I don’t need to recycle my criticisms, which have not been addressed. But I do want to point out his expanding claims, which now see Göbekli Tepe as a “university” teaching a “revolutionary” agricultural lifestyle to, basically, everyone in Europe, eastern Africa, and the western two-thirds of Asia:
For the agricultural revolution their religion inspired was propelled across the Eurasian continent and into North Africa. In fact, according to the Nostratic hypothesis, Göbekli Tepe likely represents the origin of a lifestyle and language that most of the world now adopts. It appears to have inspired ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt, as well as Europe and east Asia, including India. From these regions, most of the world’s current languages and customs derive.
​The key words there are the “Nostratic hypothesis,” a controversial linguistic hypothesis that holds that all of the language families from the Indo-European, Dravidian, Kartvelian, Afro-Asiatic and a few others share a common ancestor in the Fertile Crescent around the end of the last Ice Age. Most mainstream scholars of comparative linguistics do not endorse this hypothesis because it involves several layers of speculation, which can induce numerous errors. For example, Nostratic analysis is based on comparing reconstructed proto-languages, such as Proto-Indo-European. But since these proto-languages are simply scholarly approximations of what we imagine the originals were like, comparing multiple reconstructions means ignoring the uncertainty and likelihood of errors in reconstruction.  
 
It’s also worth noting that there is no evidence that Göbekli Tepe was a center for agriculture. The archaeological evidence speaks to a hunter-gatherer society.
 
Sweatman’s article contains a number of minor errors that speak to his lack of historical knowledge. He interprets a Mesopotamian vase as depicting animals standing atop pillars because the vase places them in a register above the other figures on the vase. He seems unaware of artistic conventions before the adoption of one-point perspective in the Renaissance for depicting differing locations and distances. At another point he speaks of “pre-dynastic” Mesopotamia, which isn’t a thing.
 
All told, Sweatman appears not to have listened to his critics (who were legion in 2017). Instead of doing more work to prove his original (and dubious) hypothesis, he has instead taken it for proven and has expanded it beyond what any reasonable evaluation of evidence could support. He should fit right in on the History Channel and on the fringe history circuit.
55 Comments
Doc Rock
8/6/2019 10:51:39 am

When engineers and chemists start publishing on the topic of analyzing 10,000 year old animal motifs carved on stone pillars can it be anything other than a sure sign of the apocalypse?

I am appalled by the fact that the authors chose to ignore the obvious Proto-Templar code on pillar 43.

Reply
Hanslune
8/6/2019 02:05:19 pm

Ah yes the fringe necessity to come up with new stuff to sell.

Usually built on or stolen from previous fringe authors.

This one is just more intellectual slop and in time will be sloshed away - unless one of the 'big boys' decides to take it up and makes something of it.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
8/6/2019 02:10:16 pm

Hi Doc -

I think it likely that Sweatman's understanding of PPN-B is probably pretty limited.

None the less, the animal motifs exist at GT, and they likely reflect the highly traumatic recent comet impacts. Furthermore, it is highly likely that ancient man had some kind of constellations.

But when you are dealing with data from 13,000 10,850 BCE, with little to no intervening data for 10,000 years or so, then you are in pretty speculative territory.

It looks to me likely that Graham Hancock has probably accepted Andrew Collins work, which influenced Sweatman.

And I'm sorry Jason, but when commenting on work on comparative constellation systems, the book is probably required reading.

I am going to pass on further analysis of GT beyond what I have already done, and content myself with having been the first person to observe the production of gamma rays in large hypervelocity impacts, and their effects on carbon 14 dating.

The way I figure it, based on previous experience, about 15 years from you'll have caught up.

Reply
Doc Rock
8/6/2019 03:02:56 pm

EP,

I am 100% positive that animal motifs exist at GT. Everything else I take with far more grains of salt than they use on the rims of my glasses on two for one jumbo margarita night at my 4th favorite watering hole.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
8/7/2019 09:06:15 am

Hi Doc -

I had a long "discussion" with some British twit over at the archaeologica bbs on this. My notes, including two very nice PPN B symbolic plaques, are there.

https://www.archaeologica.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3640&hilit=Gobekli

4th favorite watering hole? I am going to find some really good places to hang out until everyone else gets current.

I am wondering if I will get some physics prize for my observations on gamma rays.

Kent
8/9/2019 12:16:55 am

I agree, it's worth checking out. Page after page of Mr. Grondine's disjointed ramblings. No pigeon in the park was spared.

https://www.archaeologica.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3640&hilit=Gobekli&sid=9056859c0700ce17d605494320248ccb&start=45

Jockobadger
8/8/2019 04:06:15 pm

E.P. - I only visit here occasionally, but do enjoy it. I'm curious as to how you tumbled to gamma ray production as a product of bolide impact (or is it occurring in the atmosphere prior to impact?) Very interested. Can you direct me to written material on the subject?

Thanks much. JB

Reply
Kent
8/9/2019 02:57:15 am

I suspect Mr. Badger is gently asking "Have you published a peer-reviewed paper on this?" I further suspect that your "discovery" falls under "prior art" a.k.a. BTDT and you missed it due to not knowing physics and if you weren't "first to publish" ... no physics prize for you!

E.P. Grondine
8/9/2019 10:12:21 am

Hi Jocko -

My note on them is over at academia.

Kent
8/9/2019 12:45:36 pm

You know "over at academia" is meaningless right?

jockobadger
8/9/2019 05:46:22 pm

Hi E.P.

I used Hanslune's link to check out your work - the impact notes - and I didn't download it because it asks if you want to use either FB or Google to download. I don't use FB so chose Google. It said that if I decided to download it would grant access to all of my contacts to Academia. For what purpose?

I just don't want to do that and it's a bit underhanded in my view. No knock on your work, but I don't want to do that in order to review it. I wish I could a peep at it though. Anyway, thank you. JB

Jockobadger
8/9/2019 05:58:08 pm

E.P. - Just wanted you to know I was mistaken about the contacts - it only wanted my email, etc. No sweat on that so I'm going to grab it now. Sorry about the mistake - no offense intended. Apologies.
JB

jockobadger
8/12/2019 04:16:25 pm

Hi EP, Well, I read through the referenced notes, but I didn't see anything re: the Gamma ray production. Did I get the wrong publication?

Please advise. Thanks!

Edmond link
8/7/2019 06:45:35 am

Here is an extract of my comment on Graham Hancock's website:

Martin Sweatman followed up his 'paper' of concocted proto-science fiction (in the otherwise [usually] sober MAA journal of archaeometry), with an article based on his supposed archaeo astronomy interpretation of a Gobekli Tepe engraving as a 'zodiac' with Taurid meteor shower. He claims a 'new dating method.'

“Obvious similarity between the Gobekli scorpion carving, and Scorpius.”
But your Scorpius is back to front in your effort to make it fit your cobbled star map. And not every scorpion is Scorpius. And Scorpius is not always a scorpion. And the rest of your star map is inconsistent with attested iconography. And five other authors find equally ‘obvious’ features to build different star maps around this scorpion; however one does not see it as Scorpius; see my response to your initial unfortunate paper here;
Gobekli Tepe art is not a 'zodiac' Response to Sweatman and Tsikritsis
“Circle over the vulture /eagle’s wing is the sun.”
But it could be a moon. Or the head of the headless character at bottom right, as attested in at least one engraving at Gobekli, a broken slab with a vulture, fox and human head. The same is attested in mural art at contemporary sites in the region.
“Therefore a date by precession.”
But if it is the sun, in which season? And the vulture is not Sagittarius.
“Apparent matches between symbols and our constellations might well be coincidental.”
Yes. Especially if different matches seem feasible, based on vague gestalt shapes... There is good evidence that our Zodiac was adapted from hour decan asterisms, which you do not consider in your unfortunate paper, nor in this article, despite displaying a vase including decans used allegorically.
“Mesopotamian astronomical records are scarce.”
But Babylonian and Assyrian catalogues, artworks and extensive myth indicate the usual mixture of cultural media, some cosmology, and sparse on astronomy... Constellations as old as humanity is no ‘heresy’. Your work offers more posture and bravura than mere wild and unverifiable early dating.
“Somehow this knowledge must have percolated to Mesopotamia.”
But constellations are a mixture of archetype and conventions, not ‘knowledge’. Your view of diffusion is even more vague than the hazy general norm you rely on here.
“As a scientist...”
But you are an engineer, which is a craft. Engineers tend to use astronomy automation beyond the intended timescale. Beware of the assumptions in the smallprint on your laptop... you have merely cobbled together assumed iconography and certain meteor showers, to arrive at pseudo science fiction. Perhaps your agenda is to become the poor man's Zechariah Sitchin.
“Göbekli expressed profound astronomical knowledge.”
But there are no specifically astronomical features on site.
“Many people met to observe the skies.”
But there were many other motivations for the early sites and meetings in the region; more pressing issues.
“Göbekli as origin of modern lifestyle and language.”
But language, and herding, was already practiced in the Ice Age.
“Inspired Mesopotamia and Egypt.”
But both blossomed 5000 or 3000 years later. With the usual archetypal repertoire that does not need inspiration from what they, in their cities, would have seen as backward savages.
“Inspired Europe, east Asia, India.”
But Indus and Harrappan civilisation claim independent roots and conventions.
“A whole new way to investigate the past.”
But an array of assumptions about meteor shower dates and changing positions is unlikely to improve on better attested methods. And spectroscopic dating needs not assumptions or syllogisms.
“Symbols at Göbekli that we are beginning to decipher.”
But the first five authors on this theme came up with five different star maps... Modern art, symbolism and religions did not recognise Gobekli art as its origin, only one of many variants of archetypal features... Even the amateur archaeo astronomer on site disagrees with your identifications.
“I proved in a scientific sense...”
But you rely on a statistical syllogism that one scientist mocked as a “Bugs Bunny” of number generation.
“For 30 000 years, felines were Cancer; bovines were Capricornus. In the last 9000 years, these switched to Leo and Taurus.”
But if felids moved from Cancer to Leo, that is against the direction of precession, which moved seasons in the other direction. And why would bovids move from a midwinter to a preceding spring marker?... The only comparison with Asia and Europe is by way of archetypal features, and these are subconscious, not taught or learned... felids and war worldwide is more often analogous to Leo. War season is summer, but that does not

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E.P. Grondine
8/7/2019 09:20:40 am

"But constellations are a mixture of archetype and conventions, not ‘knowledge’."

Excuse me, but in the days before TV and electric lights, knowledge of the constellations was necessary for navigation at night. They were also used to time essential functions. They were real knowledge.

"Perhaps your agenda is to become the poor man's Zechariah Sitchin. "

Excuse me Sweatman is trying to work through ancient constellation systems, a very very difficult task. Andrew Collins notes on the GT remains are pretty good.

"the first five authors on this theme came up with five different star maps... " Like I said, a very very difficult task. Given that there may be about 14 people in the world capable of working with cuneiform astronomical records, working out the constellations of 10,000 years ago is going to take some time.

With more excavation, more data will come in, perhaps enough to make some very firm statements... In the meantime, we'll be treated to several different hypothesis.

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Kent
8/7/2019 10:49:43 am

"Given that there may be about 14 people in the world capable of working with cuneiform astronomical records, working out the constellations of 10,000 years ago is going to take some time."

As one person not capable of such work talking to another, let me point out that there are no cuneiform records from 10,000 years ago or even close to 10,000 years ago.

Has anyone been able to date the Gobleki Teppe inscriptions? Didn't think so.

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Accumulated wisdom
8/7/2019 12:58:24 pm

“As one person not capable . . .”

You should have just stopped right there.

Kent
8/7/2019 01:09:54 pm

You're winning like Charlie Sheen.

E.P. Grondine
8/7/2019 05:15:10 pm

"As one person not capable of such work talking to another, let me point out that there are no cuneiform records from 10,000 years ago or even close to 10,000 years ago."

No shit, Kent.

But if one is trying to determine earlier constellation systems, then one starts with the constellation systems of the suceeding peoples from some 8,000 years later.

Kent
8/7/2019 09:03:44 pm

But that work has already been done, so unless you're suggesting that you somehow have secret knowledge that it needs to the REdone, the "14 people" remark is just a red herring.

Of course if Sitchin were alive he could redo it until it agreed with Sweatman's spew of nonsense. He would torture the text until it gave him the answers he wanted.

E.P. Grondine
8/9/2019 10:14:38 am

Kent, there is a website named sitchin is wrong.

Hanslune
8/9/2019 12:51:38 pm

https://independent.academia.edu/EdmundGrondine

Kent
8/9/2019 01:40:38 pm

Weak as water, Captain Peacock! And I am unanimous in that.

Just as "literature" and "the literature" are different, so are "vomiting up a webpage" and "publishing in a peer-reviewed journal".

Nonetheless, thank you for providing the link that Mr. Grondine in his dotage could not.

Martin Stower
8/7/2019 09:42:51 am

Göbekli Tepe was a fast-food restaurant. The animal motifs are the menu.

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Hanslune
8/7/2019 11:40:15 am

Howdy Martin

A menu....which brought up the vision of people coming to a 'university' but how would they have communicated? People from far away would have spoken languages incomprehensible to the others. In fact how would they have heard of such a place?

Unless they want to evoke a Tower of Babel solution.

I figure they were were there as the animals were very important to the people who observed them. As noted in surviving HG and nomadic groups.

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Kent
8/7/2019 12:12:49 pm

Hanslune: In your point about languages you raise a valid point but in [mistaken] theory that is taken care of by the Nostratic Hypothesis. Put the idea of Gobekli Tepe as a gathering place for far-flung peoples in the same trashcan as Wolter's regular meetings of indigenous leaders from all over the 9 continents of the world who traveled by boat. Or the Rainbow Festival or Burning Man.

Doc Rock
8/7/2019 02:19:37 pm

If it was a university then they didn't teach writing, advanced ceramics, metallurgy, agriculture, animal husbandry or much of anything else, I could just imagine the complaints at the Bursars office:

"Damnit! We paddled our son here all the way from Easter Island and he is just learning the same shit he could have learned by looking up at the sky at the community college back home. We demand a refund of the 20 mountain goat hides and 20 baskets of dried fish that we paid out in tuition!!"

A C
8/7/2019 03:18:46 pm

I assume this is a joke but while there is a dying aurochs carving and butchered aurochs bones were found on the site in large numbers the animal motifs are mostly predators.

But yeah, its a feasting site so you're more correct than most of the doofuses in this reply section. Of course no feasting site is purely about food.

The most numerous artifact at the site are actually grinding stones for grain preparation. Its from the grain traces on them that the archaelogists dated the site as pre-agriculture because they're all wild grains.

https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/2019/05/09/cereals-feasts-and-monuments-at-gobekli-tepe/

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Accumulated wisdom
8/7/2019 03:28:54 pm

“Of course no feasting site is purely about food.”

Try telling that to Kent as he’s chowing down during one of his semiweekly visits to the local Golden Corral all you can eat buffet!

Kent
8/7/2019 09:14:04 pm

If "feasting site" means "people ate there" then yes, it was a feasting site. Just like a movie theater or Dodger Stadium or the parking lot outside a Grateful Dead concert.

E.P. Grondine
8/7/2019 05:09:33 pm

No Martin, it was a bar:

GT has the first proof of fermented beverages, which in turn led to agriculture..

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Kent
8/7/2019 09:24:16 pm

Not so fast. This just in from last year:

"Researchers say they have found the world's oldest brewery, with residue of 13,000-year-old beer, in a prehistoric cave near Haifa in Israel."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-45534133

E.P. Grondine
8/8/2019 09:54:16 am

PPN B versus PPN A, Kent?

Here's a clue: The whole area has been in conflict,which has prevented the excavation of northern coastal sites, the most likely candidates.

Also note that the Germans are scarcely at the lowest levels at GT, and Israel has an excellent PR machine feeding into Bible enthusiasts.

But however you work it,the point is is that grains were necessary for alcohol, and that was the reason for their cultivation. Now there is an area of study which Doc will enjoy.

Kent
8/8/2019 10:03:08 am

Okay, so you're an anti-Semite.

"But however you work it,the point is is that grains were necessary for alcohol"

and wine doesn't exist.

E.P. Grondine
8/8/2019 10:45:20 pm

Kent, every archaeologist working in the are or who used to work in the area will tell you the same thing. They are not anti-semitic.

But since you brought it up, let me make my position absolutely clear to you: I once watched a debate between Sharon and Rabin. IMO, Rabin won. His assassination put me in bed for a week.

So I will not take any shit from you on this issue. Try again, asshole.

Kent
8/8/2019 11:48:02 pm

I wasn't saying archaeologists were anti-Semites, I was saying you were. It's the appropriate response to "You proved me wrong but Israel paid for it! Wahh wahhh wahhhh!"

Grains are not necessary for alcohol. Wine, idiot. Not whine.

I'm sorry you had to take to your fainting couch because you saw something on TV. It must be terrible to be old and feeble.

A C
8/7/2019 02:50:34 pm

A University that closed down over 5000 years before its pupils attended it. Right.

Gobekli Tepe's habitation period covers the dawn of agriculture so its not just a pre-agriculture site but a proto and early agriculture one, its not the center of the development of agriculture but its in the area and part of the culture that first domesticated wheat.

From plant genetics and archaeology we know that urbanisation and writing began in southern mesopotamia while domesticated grains were brought there from the north and anatolia. Barley was dominant in southern mesopotamian agriculture thanks to its salt resistance while the homeland of wheat had access to a broader diet. The north was less reliant on irrigation thanks to the mountains providing rainfall so the south developed differently and agriculture had to be adapted as it spread, even when we know the origin points of a 'mes' (English fails me for a word to broadly refer to technology, techniques and plants so it feels appropriate to fall back on Sumerian) that is only a fragment of the story. The aspects of civilization aren't a single discreet package and Martin Sweatman seems to be subconsciously obsessed with rejecting that insight.

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Accumulated wisdom
8/7/2019 02:59:04 pm

You might want to look up the difference between “its” and “it’s” to avoid appearing like someone who attended a university that closed down over 5,000 years ago.

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Peter de Geus
8/8/2019 04:08:00 pm

Rebecca Bradley PhD (Cambridge) does a number on Sweatman. Start with her latest blog:

https://www.skepticink.com/lateraltruth/2019/01/25/martin-sweatmans-decoding-of-prehistory-incoherent-catastrophe/#comments

...and check out her previous:

https://www.skepticink.com/blog/author/lateraltruth/

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Martin Stower
8/8/2019 04:24:44 pm

Also her foreword to this fine work:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Strange-Journey-Humphries-Brewer-Investigating-ebook/dp/B07NWTPL7T

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Hanslune
8/8/2019 04:44:04 pm

Hey Martin

Thanks for mentioning she wrote the foreword. I had intended to purchase that book once I got of vacation. Just finished that so have obtain Volume I.

I'll let you know what I think once I finish!

E.P. Grondine
8/8/2019 11:02:23 pm

Hi guys,

While I have pretty well demonstrated two cometary impacts on the Canadian ice sheet, everything else is pretty much speculation.

We do not know whether the comet was Encke or another one, and this is important is determining the rate of cometary injection.

Does GT have an astronomical alignment? It is likely that it does.

What was it? We do not know definitively yet, and this is important.

Plaque C is interesting:
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jerf-el-ahmar-pictograms.png

Men as ants, the two circles?, on the reverse what is likely a very very intense meteor storm?

Knock yourselves out, but I will wate for more artifacts.

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An Anonymous Nerd
8/8/2019 09:47:11 pm

What was the curriculum? How was the school publicized? How was it paid for? Who attended? Just the leaders of a given society that wanted to suddenly switch lifestyles? What made folks think "hey I better travel many miles to a place I've only heard of, to learn a lifestyle that's very different from the one I and my ancestors have practiced?"

When one makes a claim that something was a "university," these are the kinds of questions one should be prepared to answer.

And, yet, ultimately irrelevant because, as Mr. Colavito has pointed out, this was a hunter-gatherer society. They couldn't have taught agriculture to anyone. Indeed that fact is one of the things that makes the site so remarkable to begin with. Somehow the idea that it was a university of agriculture is much more.....pedestrian.

-An Anonymous Nerd

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E.P. Grondine
8/10/2019 10:11:06 am

AN -

This was a hunter gatherer society...who had discovered alcohol.
They needed grains to produce that alcohol, and that in turn led to agriculture.

The feasting and megaliths were another thing....

and finally you have the motifs and symbolic art...

My opinion remains that we're many excavation seasons from being able to understand the complex thoroughly. I have been impressed by Collins observations on the physical remains, and enjoy his books, but... How all of this was reflected in the nearby ancient farming communities is not at all understood.

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Kent
8/10/2019 12:34:20 pm

How did they discover alcohol without the agriculture to produce the grains to produce the alcohol, you potty-mouthed simpleton?

Wine, not whine.

It must be terrible to be old and feeble.

Jr. Time Lord
8/11/2019 07:55:12 pm

kent,

"How did they discover alcohol without the agriculture to produce the grains to produce the alcohol, you potty-mouthed simpleton?"

DUH!!! They hunted and gathered wild grains to store for the winter. Some of which, fermented. And you call the rest of us "simpletons".

Jr. Time Lord
8/9/2019 04:32:48 am

"ARIES

This was once the first constellation of the zodiac. It is now the second, by reason of the precession of the equinoxes, which will be subsequently explained. it is known by two Bright Stars about 4 degrees apart, which are in the horns of the Ram. The brightest of, called Arietus, IS USED BY NAVIGATORS TO COMPUTE LONGITUDE BY THE MOON'S DISTANCE. Most of the stars in this constellation are small. Aries, in the Hebrew zodiac, is assigned to Simeon or by some to Gad.

TAURUS

This constellation is next to Aries in the zodiac, and is one of the most celebrated and splendid. The Pleiades are in Taurus, and near it is the magnificent constellation Orion, called Orus by the Egyptians. In that sublime chapter of the Old To, Job xxxviii, mention is made of these: 'Canst thou bind the sweet influences of the Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?' . Taurus, once seen and recognized in connection with Orion, is never forgotten.
The bowl is represented as engaged in combat with Orion, and plunging toward him with threatening horns. The face of the Bull is designated by 5 bright stars in the shape of a letter V, known as the Hyades, the most brilliant of which is Alderbaran, WHICH IS MUCH USED BY NAVIGATORS. the tips of the horns of the Bull are marked by two bright stars at an appropriate distance above the face. The Pleiades clean brightly near the shoulder. Orion, who faces the Bull, is known by for bright stars, forming a large parallelogram, in the center of which is seeing a diagonal row of stars, known as the belt of Orion, and called in Job the 'bands of Orion.' four stars of the parallelogram, respectively, indicate his shoulders and feet. A line of smaller stars form his sword, its handle ornamented buy a wonderful nebula. Just below Orion shines, with a splendor almost equal to Jupiter or Venus, that mighty sun-star Sirius, the deified Sothis of the Egyptians. Farther east Andover him flashes that brilliant star known as Procyon. These two, with Betelgeux, in the shoulder of Orion, form an equilateral triangle, whose sides are each 26 degrees, which is so perfect and beautiful as almost to force itself upon our attention. Taurus, Orion, Sirius, the Pleiades, and Hyades, are all frequently alluded to by the poet Virgil in the 'Georgics.' This is, perhaps, the most magnificent and sublime quarter of the heavens north of the equator.
Taurus was held by the Egyptians, and most nations of antiquity, as a sacred constellation. Before the time of Abraham, over four thousand years ago, it adorned and mark the vernal equinox, and 'for the space of two thousand years the bull was the prince and leader of the celestial host.' the sun in Taurus was deified under the symbol of a Bull, and worshipped in that form. The sacred figures found among the ruins of Egypt and Assyria, in the form of a bull with a human face, or a human shape with a face and horns of a bull, are emblematic of the sun in Taurus at the vernal equinox. In the Hebrew zodiac Taurus was ascribed to Joseph.

GEMINI

Is the next constellation in the zodiac. Its principle stars are too bright ones, call Castor and Pollux. They are about 4 and 1/2 degrees apart, and of the first and second magnitudes. In mythology, Castor and Pollux are said to be the sons of Jupiter by Leda. In the Hebrew zodiac this constellation is assigned to Benjamin.

CANCER

This constellation is composed of small stars, the brightest of which are only of the third magnitude. It is of no special importance, except from its position, of which more will be said subsequently. In some Eastern zodiacs this sign is represented by the figure of two animals like asses, and by the Hebrews is assigned to Issachar.

LEO

This is another celebrated in beautiful constellation. it is easily known by five or six Bright Stars situated in the neck and head of the Lion, an arranged in the form of a sickle. Its two brightest stars are Regulus and Denebola, the former in the sickle and the latter near the tip of the tail. Regulus is a very bright star, and is situated almost exactly in the ecliptic. It is, therefore, of GREAT USE TO NAVIGATORS IN DETERMINING THE LONGITUDE AT SEA. The constellation Leo is also celebrated as being the radial point from which the remarkable meteoric showers of November proceed. If this phenomenon was observed by the ancients, it must have greatly increased the veneration and awe with which this sacred constellation was viewed... It once marked the summer solstice...in the Hebrew zodiac Leo is the signifactor of the tribe of Judah. According to astrology, it is the 'sole house of the sun.'

VIRGO

This is the beautiful virgin of the zodiac. She is represented as holding a spear of ripe wheat in her left hand, marked by a brilliant star, called Spica. In the Egyptian zodiac isis supplies the place of Virgo, and is represented holding three ears of corn in her hand. Spica, together with Denebola in Leo, and Arcturus in Bootes, forms a

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Jr. Time Lord
8/9/2019 04:41:03 am

What happened to the rest of everything, I typed out???

I'll have to fix it later.

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R. White
8/9/2019 05:06:04 am

You can't fix stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDvQ77JP8nw

Martin Stower
8/9/2019 05:59:31 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxonNvuCFRY&t=0m42s

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Jr. Time Lord
8/11/2019 07:01:06 pm

Constellation fix

VIRGO continued

Spica, together with Denebola in Leo, and Arcturus in Bootes, forms and equilateral triangle of great beauty. Arcturus is one of the Stars mentioned by Job: 'Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or can't they'll guide Arcturus with his sons?'. Mazzaroth signifies the 12 signs of the zodiac. Arcturus is also frequently alluded to by Virgil in the first book of the 'Georgics.' The rising and setting of this star were supposed to portend Great tempests. In the time of Virgil it Rose about the middle of September. The bright star Spica, in Virgo, lies within the path of the Moon, and is of GREAT USE TO NAVIGATORS. In the Hebrew zodiac Virgo is assigned to Naphtali, whose standard was a tree bearing goodly branches.

LIBRA

this constellation is ancient Lee represented by the figure of a man or woman holding a pair of scales. The human figure is omitted in all Arabian zodiacs, as it is held unlawful by the believers in the Koran to make any representation of the human form. In our zodiac, also, the balance only is depicted, probably because we received the zodiac from the Arabians. this constellation may be distinguished by a quadrilateral of four stars, but it contains none of great brilliancy. In the Hebrew zodiac Libra is ascribed to Asher. This constellation formerly was on the autumnal equinox, and when the sun entered its Stars the days and nights were equal. To this the Latin poet Virgil alludes:

'Libra die somnique pares ubi fecerit horas,
Et medium luci atque umbris jam devidit orbem.'. 'Georgics,' Book I.

'when Libra makes the hours of day and night equal, and now divides the globe in the middle, between light and shades.'

SCORPIO

This constellation has some resemblance, in the grouping of its so, to the object after which it is named. It is a very conspicuous object in the evening sky of July. And it's general form it resembles a boy's bow kite, the tale of which forms that of the Scorpion, and is composed of ten bright star. The first of these, near the point of the triangle forming the body of the kite, is Antares. It is a brilliant red star, resembling the planet Mars. In the Hebrew zodiac Scorpio is referred to Dan.

SAGITTARIUS

The Archer follows Scorpio, and is represented by a monster, half horse and half man, in the act of shooting an arrow from a bow. Sagittarius is easily recognized by the figure of an inverted Dipper, formed of several Bright Stars. The figure of Sagittarius appears in ancient zodiacs of Egypt and India.

CAPRICORNUS

The goat is composed of fifty-one visible stars, most of them small. It is of no particular importance, except from the connection of its sign with the winter solstice, of which more will be said hereafter. It was called by the ancient Oriental nations the southern gate of the sun.

AQUARIUS AND PISCES

These are the last two constellations of the zodiac. The former is represented by the figure of a man, pouring out water from a jar, the ladder by two fish has joined at a considerable distance by a loose cord. Aquarius in the Hebrew zodiac represents the tribe of Reuben, and the Fishes Simeon. the stars and both of these constellations are small and unimportant, except Fomalhaut, an Aquarius, which is almost of the first magnitude, and is USED BY NAVIGATORS. This concludes our description of the constellations of the zodiac."

"Stellar Theology & Masonic Astronomy"
Robert Hewitt Brown
Pages 25-27

I call that a fix.

Reply
Jr. Time Lord
8/11/2019 07:03:32 pm

Yes, kent. All the spelling errors are autocorrect. I spoke to my phone, I didn't type it all out.

Bull not bowl

Latter not ladder

I'm sure there's many other mistakes.

Martin Stower
8/11/2019 08:53:52 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ_jEzGUYDE

Custom Research Proposal Writing Service link
8/12/2019 08:53:13 am

We are the best writing company providing Nursing Essay Help of the highest quality. Our articles are appropriately formatted and referenced Top Paper Writing Services under institutional or professor’s guidelines.

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Jim Strom
8/20/2019 12:27:33 pm

"It is not impossible that some constellations might have persisted in a general way over time, ... there are enormous burdens to overcome in proving that constellations remained unchanged for longer than any other piece of knowledge in human history."

Hi Jason, that's a good question. https://xefer.com/2006/12/ursamajor

Also, from a Sci Am article by Bradley Schaefer:

"The wagon name must, of course, have come after the invention of the wheel (roughly the fourth millennium B.C.), but the bear name is undoubtedly much older. Early societies throughout Eurasia recognized the Great Bear stars and myth. The most common version was the the four stars in the bowl of the dipper were the bear, which was perpetually chased by the three stars in the handle, which represented three hunters. The Greeks, Basques, Hebrews and many tribes in Siberia had this basic star/myth combination. Surprisingly, the same bear stars and stories surfaced throughout North America. With some variations, many tribes of the new world - including the Cherokee, Algonquin, Zuni, Tinglit and Iroquois - share the interpretation of the bear followed by three hunters... [he discusses various ways of interpreting this synchronicity, before concluding] ... The Bear is unlikely to be an independent invention, because the stars do not look like a bear... The most logical [remaining] explanation to connect the traditions holds that the first settlers of the New World carried the basic myth across the Bering Straight [i.e. about 14000 years ago]."

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