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Massimo Pigliucci Advocates for Virtue Epistemology in Skepticism, Seems to Accidentally Justify Using Ad Hominem Attacks

2/20/2017

54 Comments

 
​Since I discussed some of the articles on skepticism in the current issue of the Skeptical Inquirer yesterday, I thought it was worthwhile to mention one more, which I saved for a separate post because, while it is on a similar topic, its approach is very different. Philosopher Massimo Pigliucci has a piece on virtue ethics in skepticism and asks whether skeptics should be experts in the topics they discuss. It’s an interesting argument, and I think one that skeptics as a group need to come to terms with, but which Pigliucci fails to take to its logical conclusions in a couple of different directions.
​In his piece, Pigliucci makes the case that skepticism can be divided into three broad areas of increasing complexity. The first he calls “classic” skepticism, and it is what the rest of us think of as the bizarre, the outré, the pseudoscientific, and the paranormal. You know: Bigfoot, UFOs, ancient aliens, etc. As you know, I am biased toward preferring these topics to the other two categories. The second category is “science denialism,” dealing with issues related to creationism, vaccines, climate change, and other areas where denial of science is used to forward a political agenda. The third category is skepticism toward academic research methods, such as doubts about experimental psychology methods, proof of string theory, and the utility of philosophy. Pigliucci claims that skeptics as a whole are experts in the first category and can speak without reservation. They are not equipped to speak to the second category without recourse to scientific literature, he says, and therefore are essentially mediators between scientists and the public. In the third case, which not coincidentally covers Pigliucci’s own academic subject area, “the proper attitude is simply not to open one’s mouth and let the experts sort this out.” He concludes that skeptics must demonstrate “humility and competence” before weighing in.
 
He clearly missed the better conclusion, which is that skeptical organizations need to have experts. That is to say, the people who serve as skeptics should have detailed knowledge and expertise in their fields, and qualifications in them when possible, in order to evaluate claims with the same or greater expertise than the advocates. Thus, the answer isn’t to sit down and shut up but to become an expert who can speak knowledgably about problems. To do so, one must specialize. “None of us is an expert in everything,” Pigliucci said. Over the past 15 years I like to think that I’ve developed expertise in my area. There is no reason that skeptics can’t specialize in areas except that many of the high-ranking skeptics in the field prefer to portray themselves as jacks of all trades who can go into battle over any subject armed with only Occam’s Razor as a weapon. But just as reporters have beats, developing a narrower field of expertise provides more knowledge and depth and better results.
 
Instead, Pigliucci recommends the application of Aristotle’s virtue ethics in the subfield of virtue epistemology, which is an area I’ve never been entirely comfortable with. I am no philosopher (as Pigliucci would undoubtedly note), but my brother has a philosophy degree, and I have heard more than my share of philosophical discourses. Virtue ethics asks us to make value judgments about moral actions by considering whether the moral agent (the person making the decision) possesses positive character traits. As you can imagine, this opens the field to cultural biases since what one defines as a “virtue” is dependent on one’s culture. For example, in many East Asian cultures deference to authority is typically a virtue, while in Western cultures it smacks of passivity. The reverse is true for individualism. Similarly, virtue epistemology asks us to evaluate a claimant by examining whether he or she possesses “the kind of practices that make it possible for her to arrive at the best approximation to the truth,” as Pigliucci puts it.
 
Pigliucci frames this in a positive sense, by imagining the obligations of the skeptic when attempting to evaluate a claim. He cites, for example, the skeptics who offered implausible and evidence-free solutions to UFO sightings without doing the legwork. “The a priori ‘knowledge’ of some skeptics (that the phenomenon couldn’t possibly be what it was purported to be) led to rather unvirtuous, completely unfounded in facts, ‘explanations’….” In his framework, promoting epistemic virtues (honesty, humility, objectivity, etc.) would prevent this type of off-the-cuff pseudo-explanation. But the problem, as I think you can see, is that while it might inspire researchers to work harder (as, say, adherence to the scientific method would as well), it personalizes the argument by placing the moral fault not on the lack of evidence but on the claimant’s lack of virtue in approaching the problem. For him, the bad explanations are bad not because they are objectively wrong but because the skeptic was being arrogant and presumptuous in proposing evidence-free, objectively false explanations. In practice, this means that the argument could be turned around quite easily, and we would be justified in launching an ad hominem attack on a complicated claim, or a bad explanation, by arguing that the claimant possesses “epistemic vices” such as gullibility or dogmatism that render his or her claim unsound. It also has the effect of freeing us from the need to challenge bad claims by evidence. The risk of fallacious argumentation seems to be to be too great to make this a useful method of skeptical inquiry.
 
But don’t take my word for it: A whole group of philosophers actually argues that ad hominem arguments aren’t just legitimate but can be defended even beyond the system of virtue ethics. Apparently, there is now an entire field of argumentation that seeks to rehabilitate ad hominem attacks as an appropriate and logically sound approach to argumentation by appeal to virtue ethics. Isn’t it a wonderful time to be alive? It is a dangerous path for skeptics of extraordinary claims to remove the field of contest from an evaluation of evidence to the character of the claimant and skeptic alike. It is, however, entirely in keeping with our era to imagine that a person’s moral virtue, judged as it is by culturally specific values, sometimes limited to those shared by the person’s immediate subculture, should impact whether we see a claim as true or false. As far as I can tell, even bad people can sometimes make good points, and all the imaginary virtues and vices in the world won’t have anything to say about whether space aliens and Bigfoot are really out there. 
54 Comments
Brian
2/20/2017 01:17:35 pm

What has happened to rational discourse? Is this the fault of post-modernism? Or is it the fault of our media (television, internet, everything) that spreads shallow and false versions of ideas - such as the idea that moral and social constructs are relative, which somehow became "truth is relative", which somehow because "there is no truth"? Do we need a major catastrophe caused by those who say there is no reality to discredit the whole lot?

I sure hope not! But we need something to jar the smug manipulators of reality and get us back to a basic respect for reality.

Reply
Time Machine
2/21/2017 09:06:33 am

Let's put the Bible to the same critical scrutiny as Scott Wolter and Erich Von Daniken

It's so easy to destroy Biblical Apologetic skepticism

Reply
A Buddhist
2/21/2017 11:03:29 am

By the black earth upon which we rest, you are right! Have you heard of the writings of Russel Gmirkin? Fascinating arguments he makes!

Shane Sullivan
2/20/2017 01:32:46 pm

"In practice, this means that the argument could be turned around quite easily, and we would be justified in launching an ad hominem attack on a complicated claim, or a bad explanation, by arguing that the claimant possesses “epistemic vices” such as gullibility or dogmatism that render his or her claim unsound."

Don't we make at least provisional judgements about a claim based on the character of the claimant all the time? I don't know about you, but if Steven Pinker told me that, on second thought, Connectionism provides a swell account of cognitive processes after all, I would be a bit less skeptical than if David Wilcock told me the same thing.

Of course that should be but one (again, provisional) factor in my appraisal of the claim. I'm fond of virtue ethics, but the over-emphasis on character at the expense of utility is of legitimate concern.

By the way, did Pigliucci recommend Aristotelian virtue ethics in specific, or just virtue ethics in general? I thought he had given up Aristotle's ethics years ago as both inadequate and elitist.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
2/20/2017 01:55:29 pm

He recommended virtue epistemology, with the explanation that it originates in the virtue ethics tradition that started with Aristotle. So, no, he is not recommending Aristotle.

You're certainly right that in practice, as a *consumer* of information, it is certainly reasonable to ignore a claim from a person who has proved himself unvirtuous. Life's too short to listen to every huckster and nut-job. But as a skeptic looking to *explain* why a claim is incorrect, using the advocate's lack of virtue as an argument seems like a shortcut that undermines the idea of evidence-based understanding of the world.

Reply
Shane Sullivan
2/20/2017 03:02:34 pm

In that case we're in complete agreement.

Time Machine
2/21/2017 09:07:59 am

Jason Colavito gives the impression that he is a Roman Catholic homosexual.

Kathleen
2/21/2017 12:24:34 pm

Jeez Louise! Off topic

David Bradbury
2/20/2017 02:33:32 pm

"The third category is skepticism toward academic research methods ...
In the third case, which not coincidentally covers Pigliucci’s own academic subject area, “the proper attitude is simply not to open one’s mouth and let the experts sort this out."

But the more useful attitude is to acquire expertise on specific topics which appear likely to reveal weaknesses in the relevant methodologies.

Reply
Kathleen
2/20/2017 03:19:44 pm

Category 3 is the case for peer review. But can't we be skeptical of a claim if the claimant declines to adhere to that protocol?

Reply
David Bradbury
2/20/2017 07:12:09 pm

Sadly, in the present over-commercialised state of academic publishing, we cannot always trust the peer review process; hence the need, if one personally suspects methodology to be dubious, for the acquisition of sufficient relevant expertise to check.

septic
2/20/2017 03:06:03 pm

Colavito is qualified to lecture everyone on philosophy because his brother has a bachelors degree in philosophy.

Reply
Only Me
2/20/2017 05:01:48 pm

It wasn't a lecture on philosophy. Jason was explaining the flaw in determining the validity of claims, and explanations for them, by focusing on the character of the parties involved.

Your comment is an example of this thinking. You're making the assumption Jason is arrogant, "lecturing" the rest of us on a subject after he admitted he isn't an expert.

If he can present a good counter-argument to Pigliucci's conclusion, how is your opinion of him relevant to the strength of the counter-argument?

Reply
Americanegro
2/20/2017 06:07:56 pm

Septic makes a good point. It's the "my uncle was in the military" argument.

"climate change, and other areas where denial of science is used to forward a political agenda." The question is "who's denying the science" or as Al "Massage Cowboy" Gore calls it "settled science"?

In the Trump era two buzzwords are popping up a lot, "epistemic" and "dystopia". People who use them are as unreliable as people who used the word "banksters" a few years back. All just a scam to get dimwitted college girls to give up the punanny. A lot of life really is that simple.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
2/20/2017 06:13:36 pm

It's not because I am not lecturing anyone on philosophy. You might notice that I purposely cited actual philosophers who have defended ad hominem arguments on the same grounds. I specifically tell you not to take my word for it. That's pretty much the opposite of asserting something on my own authority.

Only Me
2/20/2017 06:17:50 pm

Not really as good a point as you think. It's basically making the argument you must be an expert on a subject before you can talk about it. Do you have to be a chef to criticize the food for tasting bad?

The same idea applies here. I'm not a philosopher either, but I understood Jason's point.

REEK REEK
2/21/2017 09:53:28 am

DO YOU SHARE THE SAME BED WITH JASON COLAVITO

BECAUSE YOU GIVE THE IMPRESSION THAT YOU ARE BOTH INTIMATE WITH EACH OTHER

Kathleen
2/21/2017 12:26:11 pm

Good grief! Take your tantrum somewhere else

At Risk
2/20/2017 05:53:30 pm

Jason: It is, however, entirely in keeping with our era to imagine that a person’s moral virtue, judged as it is by culturally specific values, sometimes limited to those shared by the person’s immediate subculture, should impact whether we see a claim as true or false.

Good summation of a tricky subject, but you seem to be saying what I've been saying all along: that the "experts" think they, only, can be right, as viewed from their own Ivory Towers. Only their own sometimes very biased positions are acceptable and only their own established viewpoints matter. Other considerations don't matter and don't count in any particular history debate when compared to the already accepted viewpoints.

But, if I may poke a finger in the eye of an almost dead horse here, a perfect example of what I'm referring to exists over the matter of who the first Europeans to Minnesota were...and what is acceptable. I know from firsthand experience that the official position from the State's historians and archaeologists is that the colonial French were here before the medieval Norse. Nothing I can say or do so far has been enough to jump-start these "officials of Minnesota history" to consider the possibility that the Norse were here way earlier than the French. Why?

Because a higher value is being attached to the views of those considered to have greater input values...but, by those who consider themselves to already be "in the know" in all cases. This is where some errant skeptics come in, going too far, because they overwhelmingly side-in with established views...automatically.

Sadly, to me Democrates = political correctness run amok, from universities that are supposed to be teaching the virtues of free speech and openmindedness. In my own narrow viewpoint, I have seen professors behaving badly, at times representing old, stodgy, classic hideboundness. What, exactly, are they PROTECTING? The memory of Columbus? Why is this so important?

Reply
Americanegro
2/20/2017 06:15:33 pm

"But, if I may poke a finger in the eye of an almost dead horse here"

That's not your finger and that's not the eye.

"Nothing I can say or do so far has been enough to jump-start these "officials of Minnesota history" to consider the possibility that the Norse were here way earlier than the French. Why?"

Because you're completely wrong? Because you talk nonsense about three holes being a code because there isn't a fourth hole? Based on that alone they're right not to take your calls.

Reply
V
2/21/2017 01:23:37 am

What they are PROTECTING, my dear idiot, is evidence-based science. You have blinded yourself to any and all possibilities but the one that YOU want it to be, and refuse to believe that your evidence is NOT strong enough to make your case--so instead of going out and looking for more evidence and strengthening your case, you whine that nobody will listen to you.

No one will listen to you because your "evidence" is flimsy and does not make the case you think it does. SHUT UP, go out there, and find evidence that CORROBORATES your story, if there is any, and stop bothering people who at this point have come to not even give a shit! Maybe, instead of "WHY WON'T YOU COME LOOK AT MY HOLES!?" you should try, "I have this hypothesis. What do I need to present to you as evidence, and what is the best method to find it?"

I say this one as someone who has HEARD all of your "evidence" and SEEN all the pictures you've had to offer, and to beat a very, very dead horse, IT IS NOT EVIDENCE. You don't have to be a medieval Norseman to drill a goddamn hole in the ground! You are being very racist in insisting that ONLY a white man could have done it, you know.

Those who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones at ivory towers, sir. Your biases are NAUSEATINGLY clear. GO. AWAY.

Reply
Rhw
2/21/2017 05:10:33 am

Well said!

At Risk
2/21/2017 12:41:46 pm

Maybe V is a hot-headed Frenchman...or Frenchwoman? Sizzle, sizzle. Charges of racism included. Like the old comic books I used to read...BAM! WHAM!

Forget it, V, since your comments are obviously abusive in an otherwise peaceful blog, you may excuse yourself instead.

You also used purposeful blasphemy, using God's name in vain, to the disturbance of some fellow readers. Yet you accuse me and my attempted persuasions against over-skeptism as being nauseating?

Excuse Me While I Kiss The Sky....

You are too hidebound for any of that "unacceptable stuff," right? Sad for you, but you very adequately represent what Jason has just warned about...rabid, shallow, even deceptive skeptical viewspoints...including stupid charges of racism.

Why should anyone listen to your ranting attact against me in such a personal way any more than my own peaceful persuasion attempts for people to be openminded? At least I tend to be peaceful by nature, not someone who attacts someone else with a huge degree of repugnancy...and anonynimity, I might add.

Are you officially Gatekeeper One to this perceived land of pure-white skepticm you so gallently defend here? And, why white?

By silly extrapolation, are you a racist, or just a fellow idiot?

David Bradbury
2/21/2017 03:41:02 am

If there are more than a few asterisk-shaped stone holes in the USA, then all the advocates of early dates for not-quote-circular stone holes really really need to find a reasonably absolute dating method.

Reply
At Risk
2/21/2017 12:53:41 pm

How about "two pictures are worth two thousand words?"

Unless your eyes are biased....

http://hallmarkemporium.com/kensingtonrunestone/id42.html

Compare the mineral decay and lack of decay between the modern and medieval types.

I've done my explorations and studies, yet the fools here abound like noisy crows thinking spring is here just because of record temperatures....

David Bradbury
2/21/2017 03:24:50 pm

I don't see any attempt at "reasonably absolute" dating there. Are we seeing a hole 20 years old and a hole 120 years old?

At Risk
2/21/2017 05:55:20 pm

You missed something, David. The large, "fancy" stonehole was made by late 1800's railroad surveyors, making it about 130 years old or so (you are on the right range on this one, though); however, the other stonehole is classic medieval Norse, as can readily be seen by the many-hundreds-year-old decomposition on the wall of the slightly triangle-shaped hole. The latter stonehole is from the Sauk Lake Altar Rock, likely America's first Christian altar.

Look again, please, and notice that the walls of the large, fancy stonehole which is "only" just over a hundred years old does not exhibit anywhere near the degree of mineral decay as the older one, which is decayed to the point of being craggy and rough on the inside wall. What is there not to understand here?

If you respond, "sorry, no exact date," then that would be ascribing no validity to the photo comparison at all. Then I say: we don't need exact dates to make a valid point...because there is an obvious visual difference between both the type and the aging of these two stoneholes. This should be viewed as a scientific observation, and the physical context of particular stoneholes should be reexamined: let's take an ethnological approach and see what the intelligent local folks have said, too, instead of accusing them of mass-forgetfulness to blast.

Anyone can be purposely obstinate over this, but it doesn't change the facts. In this case, your eyes can see facts. How your eyes translate those images and facts is beyond my control--but hopefully not out of my sphere of influence, however meager that might be. Also, there is something to be said for repetition in getting something across...but I always try to add new findings to my outrageous fantasies, from different angles.

Somebody here, above, said something about the "...acquisition of sufficient relevant expertise." This is what I have done with stoneholes in the upper Midwest, acquired suffieienct expertise to allow me to recognize a medieval Norse Code-stone when I see one. I can look at and understand most stoneholes from this region...but only because I've been going out in the field and taking photos and finding new things, and researching other peoples' findings, too. I can basically look at any stonehole in this region and tell approximately when it was made, by it's type, including it's shape, and by the relative degree of inside wall mica degeneration. This isn't rocket science, but it involves a scientific approach...through visual observation. That is what we have for now, wishful thinkers, but there are other emerging approaches.

In the meantime, some of these local stoneholes are legitimately medieval and Norse, however misunderstood and misaligned in the historical approach. Context is important, and I think most unbiased human eyes can readily see the differences I've taken the time to point out between medieval and modern stoneholes... both in type and in relative age. Sorry if you can't see it. This is what I'm dealing with.

David Bradbury
2/21/2017 07:05:15 pm

Okay. So how old should this one (in granite) be?

http://www.stonestructures.org/assets/images/Five-Point_Star_Hole.jpg

At Risk
2/22/2017 11:48:19 am

Hi David, I haven't been to that great website for awhile, but that large "star" stonehole is a great example of a machine made hole, designed to look somewhat hand chiseled. Upon close inspection, you can see a portion of the hole's wall that shows it to be smooth. The hole is mostly filled with pine needles, so it's hard to make out. Also, context matters a lot. In this case, other stoneholes are in the same location, from which comparisons can be made to the example you showed. I'll admit that this one was a bit tricky at first, because the rock itself is craggious leading to the inside of the hole.

David, if you will go to this site:
http://hallmarkemporium.com/kensingtonrunestone/id44.html

...you will see the "tent outline" where some of these same kinds of "star" stoneholes were made in MN back in the timeframe associated with those in the MA quarry. As one can see (again, literally with their eyes), these stoneholes are the same, from the same period...just after the Civil War in the case of those on the ridge in MN. There are over 30 that I found, all different types of large star holes, plus some large ones just plain round, but very much larger than, say, authentic medieval Norse stoneholes.

Keep in mind, now, that there are several other stonehole rocks intermingled with these "modern" ones. That would be the several small-diameter stonehole rocks comprising the coded message I told about a few times here. You can see them on the same website page, above, where I clearly contrasted the two different types of holes...medieval and modern.

Yes, these several small stonehole rocks pre-existed the modern ones by several hundred years! Yes, two different "surveying parties" marked the same location--in stoneholes, hundreds of years apart.. I think you know why now, don't you David? Hint: Waterways, land-claiming....

David Bradbury
2/22/2017 02:16:12 pm

"designed to look somewhat hand chiseled"
No- it's a quarry. The holes are not designed for looks, they are made as rapidly as possible with the jackhammer to facilitate quarrying. That particular one, which cannot be older than the 1850s, looks much less crisp around the top than the one on your id42.html page, which you are claiming as also 19th century.
I repeat, you (and other stone hole theorists) need to establish some acceptable absolute dates, and demonstrate the effectiveness of your methodology for doing so. That's particularly vital for your "Stonehole Ridge" because you are showing holes made with jackhammers (and RidgeStoneholesII130.JPG possibly even with a rotary rock drill) in close geographical proximity to holes made with sledgehammers & chisels, so you need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that some of the holes are centuries older than their star-shaped or perfectly circular neighbours, rather than just decades older.

At Risk
2/23/2017 10:47:04 am

Thanks for the civil discourse. Well, I said the example you pointed out was craggious to the eye leading to the inside wall, so at first glance, it looks different and less crisp. You skipped over the fact that a portion of the inside wall can be seen (adjust your screen up and down), and it shows a non-decayed wall, like those other star holes in the same location.

You said, "The holes are not designed for looks, they are made as rapidly as possible with the jackhammer to facilitate quarrying." I must disagree with you about this, David. There is plenty of visual evidence to reveal that there is a great variety of these large star stoneholes, and some were obviously purposely made with a flair of artistic design in mind. In fact, those on the MN ridge are very unlike one another, as though the person was experimenting with slightly different shapes. There is one very large hole that is absolutely perfectly round. Some of these shapes may have accomodated tent structure features...that is, the posts stuck into them.

But, we must keep in mind here that this site on the ridge is not a quarry, but instead a late 1800's surveying site, where tents were pitched. None of these rocks were blasted. They are all intact, as made. The field is pure, never cleared of rocks for cultivation. It will be a great future archaeology site someday. No telling what's buried there, as revealed by both a Norse Code-stone and a ferrous-only metal detector.

Yes, David, this is a stonehole-fantasy come true....

David Bradbury
2/23/2017 02:58:16 pm

"there is a great variety of these large star stoneholes, and some were obviously purposely made with a flair of artistic design in mind"
Highly unlikely. The more beautifully star-shaped the holes a jackhammer creates, the more likely the operator is to lose his job, because it means he is failing to control the machine properly, allowing the chisel tip to skid and cut out significantly more rock than necessary, increasing time taken and chisel wear.

At Risk
2/23/2017 10:09:11 pm

David, a different mindset existed for those who made these MN ridge star stoneholes, a different mindset than those who performed quarrying work in MA and other locations. Different atmospheres and intentions were involved; whereas one group was intent on camping successfully on a windy ridge, the other group was likely more intent on hard work and production.

Anyway, thanks for the conversation. One thing interested readers learned here today is that there were different purposes for these modern "star" stoneholes.

But, the same holds true for authentic medieval stoneholes...some were for marking land and waterways, some were made for concealment purposes...but NONE for mooring ships in MN. I'm glad everyone seems to be on the same page regarding the mis-labeling of stoneholes as mooring stones...now, if folks can just get on the same page that pioneer farmers in this specific region did not make holes in stone, enmass, and forget to blast them.

David, in ending this thread about stoneholes, if you don't mind, I'd just like to say that there seems to be a big disconnect with skeptics and academics over the issue that many of these Norse stoneholes have shown up in locations where farming did not take place, nor was rock used for building foundations. There has been, and currently exists, an ongoing ignorance about why certain stoneholes show up in certain places.

There are always good, usually understandable reasons why many show up where they do. Spring water ponds. Waterway marking. Land-claiming. For instance the Norse Code-stone is located at a very strategic place, marking a waterway discharge, likely in concert with an historic Norse land-claim...as yet unrealized.

David Bradbury
2/24/2017 03:58:45 am

You're piling on more and more hypotheses. If you wish to overcome the "big disconnect with skeptics and academics" you will need some hard evidence. In the case of your 19th century camp on the stonehole ridge, for example, it would be really useful to find contemporary evidence of its exact purpose.
In general though, I must reiterate the need for absolute dating of at least some stoneholes.

At Risk
2/24/2017 02:47:59 pm

DAVID BRADBURY says: If you wish to overcome the "big disconnect with skeptics and academics" you will need some hard evidence. In the case of your 19th century camp on the stonehole ridge, for example, it would be really useful to find contemporary evidence of its exact purpose.

You are on the right track, David. If this were a game you'd get an advancement of some kind. You just advanced beyond where the conversation was allowed to go at Professor White's blog months ago, when it became necessary to take down a day of blog comments...after a guy calling himself Joe showed up.

Anyway, once in a while, I name a stonehole after someone, and I took the liberty of naming a stonehole rock after you...in this case, it is a pretty double-hole rock from around the same era as those on the ridge near Appleton, MN. The rock you see here was photographed by myself and can be seen here publicly for the first time. By the way, the rock was moved to the garden several miles south of Glenwood, MN, from an undisclosed location, so I know nothing of its history other than in appearance it looks like some of those near Appleton.

The black and white photo is from 1869, on a ridge several miles from where the double-hole rock was photographed in a garden. One can see a ridge similar to the one near Appleton, but this other ridge is overlooking Lake Minnewaska near Glenwood, MN. I haven't figured out yet why surveyors would pitch tents on a windy ridge rather than removing themselves to a lower spot out of the wind, but here is some clear evidence you might like, David. Notice, please, the wooden post stuck into what appears to be a rock. One can see the tent flap slightly pulled in at the stake by a tie.

http://hallmarkemporium.com/kensingtonrunestone/id52.html

But...maybe at a later time we can move closer to understanding more about the medieval Norse stoneholes, rather than just debate the modern "star" ones. In previous times, on another blog, the conversation went side-ways when the focus improperly went to all manner of side-trips. I have found that people get nervous when actually beginning to address the authentic medieval stoneholes in depth. Many times the conversation veers off into unblasted holes or, in this case, star stoneholes.

But, the conversation is good when new things are discovered and understood. Next time, somewhere when the subject is more readily at hand, without intrusion, perhaps we can explore more about the ethological aspects related to some of these "out of place" stonehole rocks. Goodbye for now...the hornets aren't far behind.

Thanks again, Jason, for your patience and your indulgence from someone labeled as being from the fringe...someone who doesn't agree with that charge.

David Bradbury
2/24/2017 07:34:30 pm

I studied the Glenwood photo some time ago when you publicised it on Andy White's blog, and I am inclined to agree with those who suggest that the "pole" is a fold in the canvas flap of the tent; the lateral stability of tents is generated by the guy-ropes (which, interestingly, do not spread from the ends of the ridge in these tents, suggesting a ridge-pole design, without any vertical end-poles), and the lump at the "base of the pole" is most likely not a rock but a bag, like the adjacent dark reflective one.
As for why set up a camp on a ridge- it would make sense if, for example, it had long views for triangulation purposes.

At Risk
2/27/2017 11:50:38 am

DAVID BRADBURY: As for why set up a camp on a ridge--it would make sense if, for example, it had long views for triangulation purposes.

You deserve another advancement, David. In all fairness, before I leave this thread, I should let you and other gentle readers know that the discharge of the Pomme de Terre River (Appleton) can be visually seen over a mile away from where the "double" cluster of stoneholes resides. This river empties into Marsh Lake, which is part of the "beginnings" of the MN River. Again, the significance to this particular Norse expedition is that this Pomme de Terre River reaches FARTHEST north into the MN River watershed.

I contend that Wolter has it wrong about the Kensington Runestone being a land claim...although he isn't that far off. To my belief, the KRS is a memorial stone, as described in the inscription. However, I believe any buried land-claim would be one river over to the west from the Chippewa River (associated with the KRS), as the Pomme de Terre would enable any land-claimers to maximize their medieval desires.

Perhaps at another time, David, we can make guesses about what precise area was being claimed, in addition to making guesses about what was buried to help consumate this potential ideal bargain--in the category of "far-away Norse land acquisition attempts."....

Anyway, this addendum was just to let you know about why setting up a camp on a ridge would make sense (as you suggested) if, for example, it had long views for triangulation purposes...which it does. Bingo for you! But why camp on the windy ridgeline, in the case of the late 1800's surveyors? Why not camp out of the wind, off the ridge, and take necessary readings just a few dozen steps away? (For later discourse.)

Brady Yoon
2/21/2017 04:13:13 am

In my opinion, most human beings, academics included, have a deep-seated and subconscious drive to credit inventions, discoveries, and achievements to a single, heroic figure whether that credit is deserved or not (sometimes it is). Of the many bold navigators who crossed the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans to reach the Americas, he somehow got all of the credit for it. Although an overwhelming amount of evidence has been unearthed suggesting that the Romans and Phoenicians, among other peoples, reached the Americas centuries if not millennia prior, academics don't want to acknowledge these findings, largely because there is no name or historical personage to which they can tie these findings. It doesn’t make for a compelling narrative. Just as ”Here lies Achilles" is a lot more appealing than "Tomb of the Unknown Soldier,” Columbus discovered America is a lot more interesting than admitting that some anonymous Roman or Phoenician sailor reached the Americas before him.

Western civilization has its own culture heroes, and Christopher Columbus is one of them. I suspect that the academics who criticize Columbus for his misdeeds against the Native Americas are paying lip service to the politically correct milieu of the day, and secretly admire him as a hero of Western culture, and loath to see him displaced from his historical position as a Western culture hero. To say that Columbus really discovered the Americas is almost as absurd as saying that Prometheus was the first to discover fire. The Greeks surely clung to the Prometheus-first dogma just as fervently as some academics reject evidence suggesting Columbus was not first, nay not even second or third. They are just the culture heroes of our own civilization and Ancient Greece, respectively, who were given credit for these discoveries. In reality, the names of the true discoverers are lost to history.

Reply
At Risk
2/21/2017 01:40:09 pm

From Wikipedia, oddly enough (real guardians of real history?)

Leif Erikson or Leif Ericson[6] (Old Norse: Leifr Eiríksson; Icelandic: Leifur Eiríksson; Norwegian: Leiv Eiriksson c. 970 – c. 1020) was an Icelandic[7] explorer and the first known European to have discovered North America (excluding Greenland), before Christopher Columbus.[8][9] According to the Sagas of Icelanders, he established a Norse settlement at Vinland, tentatively identified with the Norse L'Anse aux Meadows on the northern tip of Newfoundland in modern-day Canada. Later archaeological evidence suggests that Vinland may have been the areas around the Gulf of St. Lawrence and that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was a ship repair station.

Leif was the son of Erik the Red, the founder of the first Norse settlement in Greenland and of Þjóðhildur (anglicized Thjodhild). He was likely born in Iceland,[7][10][11] and grew up in the family estate Brattahlíð in the Eastern Settlement in Greenland. Leif had two known sons: Thorgils, born to noblewoman Thorgunna in the Hebrides; and Thorkell, who succeeded him as chieftain of the Greenland settlement.

Salmed
2/25/2017 07:08:35 pm

> Although an overwhelming amount of evidence has been unearthed suggesting that the Romans and Phoenicians, among other peoples, reached the Americas centuries

Aside from the lack of written records mentioning this. Or evidence from genomics of Old World influence prior to the Norse and Columbus. Or trash from these imaginary voyages.

Brady Yoon
2/21/2017 04:18:05 am

P.S. I was replying specifically to the closing marks of At Risk's comment, where he said: " What, exactly, are they PROTECTING? The memory of Columbus? Why is this so important?"

Reply
Abraxas
2/21/2017 10:09:55 am

I think it would be tough for lay skeptics to reach the level of competence you suggested, although I don't disagree with the notion in principle. You brought up the example of reporters having specific "beats" or niche areas of expertise, but they still don't have the competence level of experts in the field.

I'm a journalism graduate, so I and my colleagues do have our specific beats. While this makes us a bit more knowledgeable than your average layman in a particular field of study (and gives us better tools to critically examine that field), we still wouldn't have the aptitude of those experts...

It's the same thing the other way; those experts in string theory or psychology wouldn't have the knowledge or education to match our expertise of journalism. You can probably see what I'm getting at... Regardless of the field, we can't expect ourselves to match the level of expertise as those who devoted their lives to it.

I still believe what you suggested has merit. It would probably have utility as well, to some extent... I just think we ought to be realistic about how far non-academic expertise can take us, especially when it comes to the critical evaluation of those subjects.

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At Risk
2/21/2017 01:17:49 pm

Again, here is what Jason said, above: "It is, however, entirely in keeping with our era to imagine that a person’s moral virtue, judged as it is by culturally specific values, sometimes limited to those shared by the person’s immediate subculture, should impact whether we see a claim as true or false."

But, see that Jason used the word "imagine." He didn't, himself, so eagerly throw away the idea of considering fringe viewpoints, and I'm somewhat puzzled by his seeming reversal of attitude here. In this blog, it felt like Mr. Hyde was trying to redeem himself out of a split personality, in favor of a more openminded and casual approach to what may be perceived as either fantasy or reality, or a combination of both.

It may be that some realities begin by posing as fantasies...almost like a brand new, ghostly saga that, once again, turns out to be true. But, let's not be so purposeful in trying to turn over the explorers' boats we see there in the fog..... Thanks.

Reply
David Bradbury
2/21/2017 03:29:03 pm

Of course, quite a lot of fantasies begin by posing as realities.

Americanegro
2/21/2017 04:47:59 pm

Of all the goddamn goddamnery I've ever seen, this has certainly taken a weird turn. We got someone claiming his name is "At Risk" complaining about anonymity, "Time Machine" just cutting loose like Elvis in a girl's hair about his fantasy version of Jason's private life...is it all a plot to make Wolter look sane by comparison? Don't know, but I'll ask at the next meeting of Academia.

Reply
Not the Comte de Saint Germain
2/21/2017 08:59:21 pm

What's absurd is that both of them have been making pests of themselves on this site for three years. They won't go away and keep getting worse.

Reply
Joe Scales
2/22/2017 11:33:35 am

When ad hominem is your only reasonable retort in basically telling someone that they're an idiot, mentally unbalanced and/or not equipped to continue in further intelligent discourse, it's best to simply keep it to yourself and commit to ignoring them. They come back as they actually enjoy having their cages rattled.

Kathleen
2/22/2017 02:31:56 pm

Bingo!

At Risk
2/23/2017 11:06:05 am

Joe, I' m thinking about making some stonehole flash-cards....

Hey, we're in agreement about something...er, someone. A professor who mis-uses his blog. Here's a comment I just made to him, which may vanish at any time:

Yes, of course...you own this limited press, right? I do hope, though, that you recognize that there is a certain degree of fear associated with authentic medieval Norse stoneholes. And, if you recall, you allowed your blog to descend into chaos after you purposely chose to entertain Tom Trow's (a MN academic) unacceptable answer to MN's many unblasted medieval stoneholes, which unfairly blames inherent Scandinavian forgetfulness for these very real evidences. You, yourself, Professor, hopped on the wrong wagon...away from scientific scrutiny and into extreme academic bias. Forbidden Archaeology? What a fake-out. You represent bias, not openmindedness. (End.)

Where have Mike and all your other alias buddies been lately, Joe? Biking?

At Risk
2/23/2017 11:30:59 am

I was right...it didn't last long. I guess your comment was less painful, Joe.

Americanegro
2/24/2017 01:13:59 am

"When ad hominem is your only reasonable retort in basically telling someone that they're an idiot, mentally unbalanced and/or not equipped to continue in further intelligent discourse, it's best to simply keep it to yourself and commit to ignoring them. They come back as they actually enjoy having their cages rattled."

Wrongeroo. They come back because they enjoy spewing nonsense even when it's not relevant to the topic at hand. None of this is about stoneholes yet we've been treated to multiple unwelcome intrusive lectures on them which would be crimes if they took place in a windowless van.

Joe Scales
2/24/2017 12:56:54 pm

Unfortunately we my never know, as someone always takes the bait. Can't be helped really, as folks new to the site may not be familiar with their malevolence and simply respond to inform them of the obvious; that they're not only dead wrong in their particulars, but also unbalanced in their manner.

I suppose I'm a cage rattler myself, even though I only talk about them rather than with them. Same effect, I suppose. Given that, I will swear the former off as well in order to completely ignore them.

Don't be a cage rattler.

At Risk
2/24/2017 02:13:38 pm

Joe, relevent blog histories will show that it was you, yourself, who showed up at Professor White's blog several months ago in order to cause mayhem and disruption...just as you finally showed up here to do. You are sneaky, Joe, even without Mike and your other alias buddies to introduce you and assist you. You're the basic blog troublemaker without much to do now that Wolter has eliminated himself from public scrutiny. Have you no shame in trying to stop the ever-evolving knowledge about stoneholes?

AMERICANEGRO, you appear to be a vile representation of something...I'm not quite sure what, yet. Common blog troll?

terry the censor
3/1/2017 06:47:40 pm

> many of the high-ranking skeptics in the field prefer to portray themselves as jacks of all trades

True. UFO buffs crow about the UFO ignorance of skeptical generalists who get in over their heads and say stupid things. Worse yet, this allows (certain octogenarian) UFO advocates to cudgel easy skeptical targets while ignoring devastating criticism from within ufology.

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    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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