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Nat Geo's "Atlantis Rising": A Stew of Fake Experts, Motivated Reasoning, and Weird Claims That Judaism Contains "Atlantean Theology"

1/30/2017

82 Comments

 
​Atlantis Rising is a documentary for people who don’t like documentaries. Slick and superficial, it cheerfully glosses over facts and subsumes logic beneath the siren song of personality. It is less a search for Atlantis than a chronicle of the filmmakers’ own ego-trips as they indulge in the fantasy that they are uniquely touched by genius in the effort to find the one true meaning behind the legend of Atlantis that has somehow escaped the notice of thousands of previous investigators over thousands of years. It is the kind of documentary where the audience is an afterthought. If you were not familiar with Plato’s Atlantis before the show started, you won’t come out the other side any the wiser, but you will have learned many false facts and come away with the impression that a cast of lunatics, obsessives, and frauds are actually respected and careful scholars. In other words, Atlantis Rising is full of “alternative facts” spouted by dilettantes and poseurs pretending at wisdom. It is the perfect show for our time.
 
Oh, and it also tells us that Judaism is really an Atlantean religion, born of the same wellspring as Classical civilization and the West itself.
​The search for Atlantis is, at its core, a search for a mystical justification for Western Civilization. Few who hunt for the lost continent will ever admit this, but the facts make it plain. Plato used Atlantis as an allegory for the fall of civilizations consumed by hubris in order to contrast its demise with the ideal Republic that was “ancient” Athens. In the 1500s and 1600s, the Spanish and Portuguese used Atlantis to try to bring the New World into the history of the Old and assign to it a Classical past worthy of Empire. In the eighteenth century, De Sales imagined the fall of Atlantis as precedent for the liberation of the French Revolution. In the nineteenth century, Ignatius Donnelly cast Atlantis as precedent and justification for Western imperialism, and in the 1990s Graham Hancock used it as an ancient analog for Western-led globalization. The harder one tries to justify the hunt for Atlantis, the more likely one is to see an attempt to connect the site of its alleged location to Western Civilization.
 
It is no surprise, therefore, to find that the filmmakers behind National Geographic’s Atlantis Rising specifically imagined that they were looking for a moral lesson about the fate of Western Civilization by fantasizing that known Bronze Age cultures were actually the city and empire described by Plato in the Timaeus and the unfinished dialog Critias. As filmmaker James Cameron told The Vulture shortly before the show aired, America is gripped by fear that civilization is about to collapse, which makes the story of Atlantis relevant today: “And so there are rumbles of social collapse that aren’t far away in the imaginations of some people. I think there’s going to be fascination with some of these lessons from history.” Of course, Atlantis isn’t historical any more than The Walking Dead is a chronicle of a real medical epidemic. Cameron is right that there is a culture-wide unease about social collapse, brought on by globalization, multiculturalism, and other challenges to tradition and stability. But he is not right to transform myth and allegory into fake history to justify addressing these fears.
 
The orange glow of the sunset of the West casts long shadows across Atlantis Rising, a fluffy, illogical, and disposable entry in the “hunt for Atlantis” subgenre. In substance, it is hardly different from Finding Atlantis, NatGeo’s 2011 documentary that also chronicled biblical archaeologist Richard Freund’s imaginative efforts to find Atlantis. In that program, Freund falsely identified Plato’s Atlantis with an archaeological site in Spain, known as Doñana, a claim that dismayed the actual archaeologists who worked on the site and who accused him of appropriating their work for a Biblical agenda. For, you see, Freund equally falsely identified Atlantis with the Biblical city of Tarshish in order to bring Plato into alignment with the Bible. As I reported at the time (slightly corrected):
… let us grant him his point and pretend that Atlantis is Tarshish. If this is true, then we have a contradiction. Tarshish traded with the Israelites during the reign of Solomon, traditionally around the tenth century BCE. This is thousands of years after Plato’s Atlantis sunk beneath the waves (9600 BCE), and at least a thousand years off from the proposed dates when the Spanish site was destroyed (possibly around 2000 BCE). Never mind that the books of Chronicles and Kings were likely composed no earlier than 560 BCE, at which time Tarshish must still have been an active port—one still in operation when Jonah tried to sail there in the Book of Jonah (composed c. 500 BCE). So Tarshish and Atlantis, like Schrödinger’s cat, both exist and do not exist, are active and destroyed, simultaneously. The only way to make the two into one is to change Plato, and once you change Plato you are no longer looking for “Atlantis” but are instead naming whatever you find in honor of Plato’s fictional allegory.
​Freund said that we are justified in adjusting the facts in Plato to make them “more plausible.” This willingness to cherry-pick which parts of Plato’s account to believe is a hallmark of Atlantis fantasies, and it is what directly leads us to finding conspiracy theorist and filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici gushing over the idea that Plato’s Atlantis might be identical with the Bronze Age Nuragic civilization of Sardinia. This claim was made by De Sales in 1793, but it faces an insurmountable problem if we are to take Plato as our guide, even if we agree to discount the 8,000-year age difference between Plato’s Atlantis and Sardinia’s Nuragic ruins. Plato’s student was Aristotle, and one of his students (or his students’ students) in the Peripatetic School told us what the Greeks thought of the Bronze Age structures of Sardinia in the book On Marvelous Things Heard, chapter 100: 
In the island of Sardinia they say there are many beautiful buildings constructed in the ancient Greek style, and, amongst others, domes carved in remarkable proportions. It is said that these were built by lolaus, son of Iphicles, when he, having taken with him the Thespiadae, the sons of Heracles, sailed to those parts with the intention of settling there, considering that they belonged to him through his relationship with Heracles, because Heracles was lord, of all the western land. (trans. Launcelot D. Dowdall)
​The account also appears in Diodorus Siculus (Library 4.29-30, 5.15) and Pausanias (10.17). Aristotle must have known a similar story himself, as he alludes to the graves of the Heroes on Sardinia in Physics 218b21.
 
By what right can we trust Plato’s account but not that of the followers of Aristotle? Jacobovici and Freund say that it is because Plato was copying a copy of an Egyptian original, making it more trustworthy. But if that is the case, then whence came the Aristotelian version? If we concede that Aristotle’s school made things up, by what right do we say Plato did not, when we have documented cases where he created fictions (the allegory of the cave, the Republic), and no documentation of any Egyptian original for the tale of Atlantis?
 
It’s clear that Jacobovici hasn’t thought much about these issues in his rush to latch on to some exciting proof or another that any given Bronze Age culture might have been the foundation of the story of Atlantis. The bottom line is always the same, however: to make any candidate fit, we must first change some fact or another about Plato, from the age of the island, to its method of destruction (news flash: Sardinia still exists and Doñana is not under water), to the identity of its mysterious metal of orichalcum, to its possession of elephants. By the time they are done, there is less connection between Plato’s Atlantis and the imagined original than between The Walking Dead and the nineteenth century Caribbean zombi that in a roundabout way inspired it. At least there one can trace the intermediate steps, which for Atlantis somehow fail to exist.
 
Disclosure: The PR firm for National Geographic Channel offered me an interview with Freund and Jacobovici, but then pulled out without explanation shortly after I accepted. You can draw your own conclusions, but essentially they are cowards who don’t want to answer hard questions.
 
The documentary, a pointlessly personal “quest” narrated bizarrely by Jacobovici in his sleepy and accented English and set up like a lost episode of a long-running series that none of us has seen, starts with James Cameron alleging that the “parable” and “myth” of Atlantis sits atop a historical truth, but one assembled from pieces of facts, like science fiction. He quickly teams up with Jacobovici, who believes in a literal Atlantis and who summarizes the Timaeus and the Critias with the help of unconvincing computer graphics that seem about ten years behind state of the Art. Cameron literally phones in the rest of his appearances in the documentary, lending his name, but not much else, and for what purpose?
 
If you are not already familiar with these men and their ideas, and the history of the myth of Atlantis, I can’t imagine that any of this makes any senses at all. Who are these people? Why are they looking for Atlantis? They never say. Jacobovici and Cameron both strategically leave out Plato’s claim that Atlantis occupied a massive island beyond the Pillars of Hercules larger than Africa and Asia combined. Instead, they falsely allege that the civilization of Atlantis is merely a Mediterranean civilization that occupied lands from the Aegean to Gibraltar, including the Spanish mainland. This is decidedly not the same thing. Spain, just to note, is not an island.
 
Jacobovici interviews Charles Pellegrino, a controversial author and creationist who was accused of fabricating parts of one of his books, as well as of falsely claiming to hold a Ph.D. (He falsely claimed that the university stripped his Ph.D. because of his creationist beliefs; in reality he failed to meet academic standards in his dissertation.) He is Cameron’s favorite expert on the history of Atlantis. Left unsaid: Pellegrino, in addition to his documented falsehoods, is also friends with Jacobovici, and the two wrote a book about the “Jesus Family Tomb” together. Both men are also friends with Scott Wolter, and the three men work together on Jesus Holy Bloodline conspiracy theories. Pellegrino is writing a book with Wolter about it, or at least Wolter claimed as much, and Jacobovici similarly promotes the same conspiracy theory about the marriage and children of Jesus in his widely debunked documentary based on the book he wrote with Pellegrino. Disclosure and ethics are not a strong suit with this set, and it’s no wonder Jacobovici didn’t want me to talk to him.
 
The first segment of the documentary explores the destruction of Thera (Santorini) and looks at the claims, dating back to K. T. Frost in 1909 and Louis Figuier in 1872 that the Minoans of Santorini were the “real” people of Atlantis. This is a familiar, and boring, allegation, and nothing has been added to it since Frost’s academic version of the argument in his 1913 journal article following up on his 1909 proposal. Pelligrino says that the claim is 99% certain, but Jacobovici and Cameron aren’t so sure.
 
A second claim alleges that Malta was Atlantis. This is also an old claim, one going back to the early 1800s, when Maltese hoaxers created fake artifacts and a fake ancient text by Eumalos of Cyrene to “prove” that Malta was indeed part of the lost continent. You’ll probably remember the claim from Meet Me in Atlantis and its appearance on In Search of Aliens. Jacobovici isn’t much interested in Malta, so he travels to Gibraltar to meet up with Freund to search for Atlantis there, and Jacobovici uses the beats of reality TV to provide pointless teasers—“Oh my God, look at this!”—to punctuate commercial breaks. This is a documentary for people who find America Unearthed too sophisticated.
 
Freund is excitable, his voice squeaking and cracking as he screams that Plato’s city of Atlantis is drowned near Gibraltar, and as will come out later, he is looking for evidence that the site he identified in 2011 is not just Atlantis but extended its power into the Atlantic Ocean. The site, which dates back, Jacobivici said, to 6000 BCE, is somehow also the “exact” time of Atlantis—9600 BCE—in Freund’s mind. We rehearse Freund’s belief that the Biblical Tarshish was actually Atlantis, though as I noted above, this is chronologically impossible.
 
Jacobovici cuts Freund loose for now and follows another claim that the Pillars of Hercules were once at the Straits of Messina. This will help him to move Atlantis to Sardinia, on the other side of the Straits of Messina. Even though he will adopt this claim to “prove” Sardinia’s connection to Atlantis, he will also abandon it at will without abandoning the connection of Sardinia to Atlantis, a logical problem. He meets with Robert Ishoy – you will remember him from his goofball exploration society, the Society for Historical Exploration – and Jacobovici treats the amateur explorer as though he were an expert in ancient history and archaeology. In fact, he never actually tells us anything about Ishoy, letting the music and the dramatic camerawork lend him an air of fake authority. Nat Geo should be ashamed of itself for letting a conspiracy theorist pass off a bunch off frauds as real and respected researchers. No one bothers to note that De Sales made claims like these back in 1793, and that Sardinia has been associated with Atlantis, Bible giants, and other fantastical claims ever since. For that matter, Jacobovici lets Ishoy, an American dilettante—his claim to fame is that he posted a college essay on Atlantis to the internet in 2001—serve as his proxy in Sardinia when Italian journalist Sergio Frau has been doggedly pursuing the claim that Sardinia is Atlantis for decades. Since the Italian government and the U.N. patronized him, one would think that would earn him some screen time. I guess they had already met their quota for non-English-speakers.
 
Jacobovici claims that Nuragic architecture matches that of Plato’s description of the houses of Atlantis. He doesn’t quote it because he’s making things up. There are no descriptions of the architecture of the houses (I assume he refers to the palaces Plato mentions as surrounding the temple of Poseidon), and only one of a temple, which doesn’t match the round towers of Nuragic style. Just to be clear, Plato says of the temple that it “was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance. All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, curiously wrought everywhere with gold and silver and orichalcum; and all the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor, they coated with orichalcum.” No Nuragic temple in Sardinia bears any resemblance to that. He claims that a temple in the center of Sardinia belongs to a water deity, though there isn’t a way to know that since the Nuragic people left no writing. We know nothing of their Bronze Age gods.
 
Although Jacobovici is convinced, Cameron is not, so he travels to southern Spain for another view. He interviews yet another looney tune, Georgeos Diaz Montexano (a.k.a. Cuban researcher Jorge Diaz Sanchez), who has been accused of making misleading (though not false) claims about his academic credentials. (He holds no relevant degree.) Notice a trend yet? He alleges that southern Spain was where the Atlanteans settled after the fall of their citadel. He also claims that practically any stone carving of a circle or concentric circles must be an aerial map of Atlantis and its rings. It’s a stretch at best, based on a fanciful interpretation of petroglyphs, an ignorance of local cultures, and a lot of wishful thinking. He provides the same evidence that Freund did in 2011—that a picture of a stick man holding a sword and standing next to a series of concentric circles is a “bible of the Atlanteans.”
 
To show you how silly this all is, Montexano takes Jacobovici to a Copper Age city in southern Spain that was composed of a series of round walls (not unlike, say, Troy), with a moat external to it. This city, which is decidedly not 11,600 years old, is somehow nevertheless coeval with Atlantis “at its height” for our hero because Jacobovici has no methodology whatsoever and happily does whatever he wants with Plato to make things fit. Why do we get to chuck out the dates Plato gave? Just because. (Montexano, in his books, claims Plato’s number has been mistranslated and should refer to 1500 BCE.) Why do we get to throw out the elephants? Why not? Why do we get to forget about the temples covered in precious metals? It’s Sunday.
 
The second hour of the documentary returns to Freund’s efforts around Gibraltar for some expensive underwater photography, and it pairs this effort with Montexano’s efforts to interpret petroglyphs of boats, spirals, and circles into evidence of Atlantis. At one point, the film crew goes into an Iberian cave to use spectral analysis in order to determine whether a petroglyph of a boat could be an image of an Atlantean warship. With the cave’s entrance covered over, and the whole crew sitting with their backs turned to the entrance, staring at flickering lights and shadows on the cave wall, it never crosses the minds of any of the people present that they are enacting Plato’s Allegory of the Cave. They are reading into shadows on the wall what they want to imagine the real world to be like.
 
Needless to say, there is no reason to suspect that such common motifs as boats, circles, and spirals have anything to do with Atlantis. Jacobovici assumes that images of boats and a horse (or so he says) near a square proves that the images record the flight of Atlanteans from their sinking harbor city. “They were recounting stories of events that were occurring somewhere along the coast, far away from here.” There is no reason to impose that story on the images, which can’t even be shown to be connected to one another as a coherent narrative. Montexano adds another layer of absurdity when he presents what Jacobovici calls an “ancient Egyptian map,” but which is no such thing. It’s a Byzantine-era map based on Claudius Ptolemy’s geographic coordinates. Ptolemy’s original map does not survive, nor any direct ancient copy of it. The exact source of the Greek language map Montexano uses is not given, except to say it is in the British Museum. Freund, Jacobovici, and Montexano all are thrilled that Tartessos, which they conflate with the Biblical Tarshish, appears on the Greek map exactly where ancient Greek geographers said it would be. This is only exciting if you think Tarshish = Tartessos = Atlantis, a claim that logic does not allow us to accept. Certainly the Greeks (e.g. Strabo 3.2.11; Pausanias 6.19.3) never thought Tartessos was Atlantis.
 
Old underwater footage from 1993 shows broken stones that Jacobovici think look like Sardinian round towers, but everyone involved jumps to the conclusion that it is an underwater city before considering any geological explanations for collections of stones on the seafloor. New underwater footage uncovers round stone discs, which the team liken to Greek column drums, even though such a style of construction was not used at the time period in question. No one stops to ask why Atlanteans would be building with Greek styles not invented for millennia. Given how long the area has been occupied, settled, and sailed, the presence of anchors, ballast stones, etc. is of no surprise. A dive to the supposed site of what Jacobovici calls “megalithic ruins” shows what at first glance appear to be perfectly natural geological formations that the team of motivated reasoners are intent in interpreting as a lost city. “Your imagination kind of starts to help a little bit,” one team member says. “It’s easy to start to imagine things.” The team’s marine archaeologist can’t determine if the rocks are natural or artificial.
 
In the final half hour, Jacobovici proposes that Spain was Atlantis, and Sardinia is its colony. To prove this, he relies on Montexano to lead him to a round Spanish structure from around 2500 BCE, which Jacobovici claims has “many features” of Sardinian architecture, by which he means that it is more or less round and has interlocking chambers. “You can’t say this is a metaphor,” Jacobivici gushes. “This is Atlantean architecture as described by Plato!” Notice how he has redefined Plato—the temple is taken now to be identical with the whole city of Atlantis, and all of the details he doesn’t like, such as the ivory roof and the metal-plated walls, are thrown aside. Jacobovici and Montexano, both standing in Spain, see a petroglyph composed of three upside-down arcs with a line drawn perpendicularly through them and declare it a Jewish menorah! The two men agree that Jewish menorahs are actually “an evolution of the Atlantean symbol of concentric circles,” a claim that lacks any factual foundation since Atlantis was, so far as we know, never symbolized as concentric rings. That was abstracted from Plato’s description of the city’s canals. Nevertheless, the two men conclude that the Bible reflects “Atlantean theology.”
 
Stop and consider that for a moment: A group of religious conspiracy theorists who already think Jesus is part of a secret conspiracy of ancient bloodlines now argue that Atlantis is the secret source of Judaism! I would have been more impressed if anyone on this show reflected for a moment on the fact that Plato modeled the fall of Atlantis in the Critias on the same anger of the gods that led to Noah’s Flood in the Bible, both stories deriving from the Near East Flood Myth. It looks like Ignatius Donnelly’s identification of the Nephilim with the Atlanteans (not to mention their identification with ancient Sardinians!) is still part of the Atlantis discussion today.
 
The team finds some Bronze Age stone anchors, and Jacobivici declares that it “fits the Atlantis timeline.” It does not. Only by throwing out Plato’s facts can we make that work, shaving 7,000 years off of the age of Atlantis, and assuming, again without evidence, that the Bronze Age destruction of the site at Doñana is (a) Tartessos and therefore (b) Atlantis. The logic does not hold. The anchors, needless to say, only prove that the residents of mainland Iberia took their ships out from Spain in the Bronze Age. In a tossed off comment, Jacobovici admits that other people have found such anchors before. He then alleges, without evidence, that there “must be thousands” of such anchors in the area because Plato said Atlantis was a big port. He also said it had elephants, but we haven’t seen any of those yet.
 
In the last minutes of the show, Jacobovici asks us to accept all of the preceding speculation, and he asks us to believe that the Bronze Age residents of Spain sailed to the Azores. The evidence for settlement before the Portuguese discovery of the Azores is ambiguous, and there is no proof that any pre-Portuguese structures, should they be proved to be from before European colonization, date back to the Bronze Age. Jacobovici sees a bunch of what look like natural rock formations, and we are told that they are actually the remains of a temple and village, complete with a “holy of holies”! Some gouges in the rocks are said to be identical to Maltese cart tracks, but no evidence is given to date them to 3000 BCE.
 
Jacobovici concludes that Bronze Age cultures from Spain to Sardinia were all connected together through political, social, and economic ties, which makes the Bronze Age “civilization” of the Western Mediterranean the “real” Atlantis. He alleges that the Bronze Age cultures were destroyed by natural disasters caused by the eruption of the Santorini volcano on the other side of the Mediterranean around 1600 BCE, even though that eruption failed to fell even the Minoans, right next door. They soldiered on for another couple of hundred years, and even longer after that under the control of the Mycenaeans. For that matter, the Sardinian Nuragic civilization was unaffected by the Santorini eruption--as this very show said in the first hour—and continued on down to historic times. Even the people of the site of Doñana were still there down to 1250 BCE, according to some estimates of the site’s age.
 
Atlantis, though, was apparently too fragile, and its people gave up the ghost as soon as they heard that a volcano had gone off on the other end of the world. It makes you wonder how they managed to get themselves to the Levant to be remembered as the mighty Nephilim and the Giants, the men of renown whose prowess offended even the gods.
 
So, to recap: Jacobovici threw out all of the parts of Plato he didn’t like and then identified Atlantis as the civilizations of the Bronze Age. This lets him identify the Bronze Age collapse as the “real” Atlantis, and perversely allows him to remove the source of Judaism from the milieu of Near East cultures that eventually gave rise to the Arabs and place it firmly in the hands of an imaginary Western culture free from the contamination of Babylon and all things Arab. His own Jewish faith is now firmly Western, separate, and linked indivisibly from the wellspring of the Western experience, here removed from Greece and placed into the wonder-world of the lost Atlantis. 
82 Comments
Only Me
1/30/2017 11:44:18 am

Forgot this show was airing yesterday. Now, I'm glad I missed it.

So, after slogging through this Fractured Fairy Tale, I wonder if Jacobovici is capable of realizing his newfound connection of Judaism to Atlantis is just the other side of the Nazi coin?

Aryan = master race versus Judaism = wellspring of Western civilization

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Pyongyang
9/5/2020 12:21:34 pm

The only thing that bothered me was his kippah...

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Clete
1/30/2017 12:04:33 pm

Watched the last forty-five minutes or so of this mess. In looking at the "stone anchors", it seemed to me that the holes did not go all the way through the rock. I might be mistaken, but the footage was unclear. It would seem that in order to have a workable anchor one would need a way to attach a line to it. Also, the rock didn't seem any different from the rest of the rock in the same location resting on the seabed. Wouldn't the rock be different? After all it was on a ship sailing from somewhere else.

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David Bradbury
1/30/2017 02:10:20 pm

Stones with artificial holes that don't go all the way through? I'm sure I've seen something else about such stoneholes very recently, somewhere or other ...

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mhe
1/30/2017 05:38:56 pm

Ha! Or is it evidence for the Chinese being in the area 3000 years ago as claimed on America Unearthed for the stone anchors found off of the coast of California.

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Tom
1/30/2017 12:07:55 pm

I am lost, are these people seeking the "island" of Atlantis or the City of Atlantis?
It seems to change depending on who is speaking.
I wonder if this area has particularly attracted the fringers because there are major geological fault lines off the coast of Iberia one of which became more active just two years ago and it could be said (by them) that something like subduction conveniently destroyed the evidence of Atlantis.
At least it will give the fringers the opportunity to wring another few books out of this tattered myth.

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Graham
1/30/2017 08:47:08 pm

That's how the fringe works, as long as what is said is 'against the lame-stream' it is correct, even if it does not make sense or flatly contradicts what was said by the last talking head.

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Crash55
1/30/2017 01:11:43 pm

How can one search for Atlantis and never quote Plato? Aside from showing a couple book covers there was nothing taken from Plato.

I don't understand why it is so hard for people to believe Plato was telling an allegory and possibly pulling from known cultures (Minoans) to add an air of credibility. I also thought that one of the more accepted theories on why Plato never finished the tale was that he realized he was just writing a version of the flood myth.

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Crash55
1/30/2017 01:17:30 pm

How can one search for Atlantis and never quote Plato? Aside from showing a couple book covers there was nothing taken from Plato.

I don't understand why it is so hard for people to believe Plato was telling an allegory and possibly pulling from known cultures (Minoans) to add an air of credibility. I also thought that one of the more accepted theories on why Plato never finished the tale was that he realized he was just writing a version of the flood myth.

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T. Franke link
1/30/2017 03:25:33 pm

Thank you Jason for pointing out how bad this "docu" really was. You know, I, too, search for Atlantis in the bronze age, but this ideology stuff (bloodlines, Jews from Atlantis, etc.) is really terrible. I am once again glad to have spent some money on your blog.

Besides some disagreements in this or that: Go on! Reveal all the bad motivations behind all this nonsense!

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Frank
2/1/2017 01:56:14 pm

Come on Thornwald, don't be so critical of others' nonsense, when you yourself are also coming up with a lot stuff yourself. You are a cherry-picker too, when it comes to your own Atlantis. Besides, our Jason here, the "voice of reason," can be just as critical and debunk anything that you have, so far, come up with on an Atlantis hypotheses of your own. Jason does not believe in a real Atlantis. But then, Jason is too "smart" for his own good. Not to mention his high and mighty arrogance, and his self-assessed high level of intellectual and logical prowess. For certain he is eloquent in the eyes of his followers, and worth the money for subscribing to his blog, as you have. Surely he is a force to reckon with, a force much more aggressive than the formidable and overwhelmingly superior hoard of invading Atlanteans. What an extraordinary feat; to have put NG on notice and on their knees, to the point of having them backing down, do to fearing Jason's expected, logical, cross-examination of those "idiots" responsible for such nonsense of a documentary. But on this point, that the documentary was a nonsensical misinterpretation of a Plato, as they succeeded in contorting our famous philosopher's words to the point of not being able to recognize hardly a word of what he wrote, I totally agree with Jason on it, if that matters much, as I just another ignoramus, since I believe in a "real" Atlantis. But my Atlantis is one of a total different class in my head; just like Pinocchio's land of toys, where "real" children like Jason go to, and are then turned into animals. Much like Jason is now an animal of sort, as he will not turn the other cheek, but he will keep slapping those that do. But then again, Jason does not believe in God also. Do you, Jason? He can, sarcastically, reference Plato's cave allegory with a scene of the documentary, but does he really understand Plato? Does he not understand that Plato was telling us that we all are living in the world of shadows? Jason, is just another shadow of the real world, the world that he cannot see, nor even imagine, because his dumb-ass soul drank too much water of forgetfulness, before he incarnated in this earthly, arrogant, shadow of a body of his.

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T. Franke link
2/1/2017 04:08:56 pm

I am not cherry-picking. And what I had to say on Plato's Atlantis so far is neither "stuff" nor is it "debunked".

Elizabeth Stuart
2/21/2017 03:15:27 am

Wow Frank, someone puts forth a better argument than you and all of a sudden you resort to name calling?! You may call Jason all the names you want but it will not take away the truth. Plato's story was merely an allegory. It never happened. It is not a true story. Wake up sheep! Wake up from your fantasy land! All you pesudos sound like a bunch of lunenatics of your meds.

Titus pullo
1/30/2017 09:00:34 pm

Judiasm and Atlantis. Well at least that explains the treatment of the Palistinians in the west bank according to some. Inferior races cant be allowed self determination.

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Killbuck
1/30/2017 09:36:25 pm

That was.... really.... really... bad.

The contrived conversations with vapid dialog... who wrote that?

I lost count of how many times "rewriting history" was uttered.

Yes i wondered too how stone anchors arbitrarily identified on sight as 4000 years old were proof of a civilization supposedly thousands of years older. And not to mention that stone anchors were still in use by many seafarers of the region only a few hundred years ago. Case in point, Chinese fishermen still using them off California in the 1850s.

And did you see how many times stone age and bronze age were comfortably used interchangeably in the same conversation?

The animated graphics were cheesy and repetitive, the contrived excitement of finds... no I mist not go on.

My final impression was of a film (I refuse to grace this cow with the term documentary) made by people who became bored by the ordeal of making it. .


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Diogenes
1/31/2017 03:02:31 am

Excellent, in-depth review of American television documentaries today. Should be read by all interested in ancient history.

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Thegrim
1/31/2017 05:04:48 pm

Its a horrble documentary

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Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
1/31/2017 03:38:51 am

With all my regards...

In order to be able to affirm that it is all " a major mistake": my analyzes and interpretations on ancient Egyptian maps, and those made in Carthage (but of Egyptian tradition), which together total almost two hundred (published most of my books), the first Must be made, according to the true rigor of the historical-scientific method, is to know in detail my investigations, and for that it is necessary to read my publications. That is the minimum that must be done.

If someone is really interested in knowing my arguments, my analyzes and interpretations of such maps, according to what is observed in them, and according to what can be read written in the same papyri or walls of Egyptian tombs and temples , Where these maps are, you only have to read the books where I have published and described them, or at least read the articles and summaries that I have published.

I have recently published a book in English (soon also in French, Portuguese and Italian) which is a short summary of the more than thirty books published on my researches of more than twenty years.

And before anyone feels angry, notice that I have never been a fanatical believer in Atlantis, nor do I claim that Atlantis -like described in Plato- has existed. My work has consisted solely in the search for ancient primary sources written in all the ancient languages ​​I have been able to (and on old maps) in which reference is made to Atlantis, or to an Atlantic island, or Atlantic culture with some important development, Which would have existed in antiquity somewhere near the Atlantic coasts of Iberia and Morocco. I have also collected many archaeological and seismological indicial proofs.

My research seems to corroborate that there was indeed an ancient tradition (including among the Egyptians) about the existence of an island in the remote west that was considered as a cradle or origin, and that this tradition can be traced back to about 4000 years ago, And not only through Egyptian maps on the paradisiacal island regions of the West or the Sunset (Amenti and Hetep), but through maps recorded in open-air rocks (Art (Rupestre) discovered by archaeologists officials of the Spanish state, where You can appreciate what looks like an island in front of the Strait of Gibraltar, right between what would be Iberia and Morocco, with a concentric circular city within the same island, sinking boats, waves, animals running, etc. and which has been dated At the end of the Bronze Age.

I also contribute with other indicial proofs like a proto-canaanite or pre-tartesian inscription found in a cave of Cadiz close to pinting ships with sails from different nations or different styles (dated between the Chalcolithic or Neolithic by the same archaeologists), where clearly is read, in Semitic: "place where the island was submerged", or well, "place of the sinking of the island", indicating the same inscription towards the Atlantic Sea, in the same direction of the Gulf of Cadiz. These inscriptions and ships were found by archaeologists long before I even came to live in Spain in 1994. The paintings have been dated by various relative and scientific methods, and according to the most recent data, they range from the Neolithic to the late The Bronze Age.

I was also the first to discover that in Iberia archaeologists were discovering cities of Calcolític and early Bronze that used as urban pattern, the same design, "sui generis", used as urban pattern for the construction of the metropolis of Atlantis. That is to say, several moats or trench that were flooded with water and that were alternated with earth spaces or earth-rings, all, concentrically, around a small central island, just like in Atlantis capital.

Some of this indicial proofs, as well as certain underwater ruins of possible submerged ports and buildings (with as yet unidentified function) at depths that indicate were built before about 10000 and 6000 BP years, will be advanced in the documentary Atlantis Rising, where I have participated as an adviser for Iberia and Atlantic. I know that In this documentary is going to show only some of the evidences of the many that we have filmed, the rest will be in another documentary predicted for 2020.

So, I warn that it is very likely that some of the underwater archaeological evidence that I have been reporting in the last two decades are not seen in this documentary, but in the next for 2020, but the list of sites under the Atlantic (between Iberia, Morocco and Madeira) is 18 places, and on land are 50 sites, covering almost all of the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal), and some places in Morocco, the Canary Islands, Madeira and Azores.

For only a few seconds where you can appreciate only a small part of the engravings of the rock in Campanario, Badajoz, can not be judged, neither for nor against. In the complete drawing, made with precision by official and titled archaeologists, at least six shi

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Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
1/31/2017 03:40:22 am

For only a few seconds where you can appreciate only a small part of the engravings of the rock in Campanario, Badajoz, can not be judged, neither for nor against. In the complete drawing, made with precision by official and titled archaeologists, at least six ships are clearly visible, and some of them have rows of oars, rudder, and protomes in the form of a duck's head or a horse's head. I invite you to know the facts in their entirety, before making judgments that could be wrong based on partial or incomplete data.



These are not just concentric circles like they can be anywhere in the world, as some are here commenting as counterargument. If that were the case, it would never have occurred to me to establish a possible link with a tradition similar to that of Atlantis. The point is that these circles have in their interior, and around, protruding boats in the form of a duck's head or an equine, which are being turned over, or dipping into these undulating lines. While the same circles are covered in part by the same wavy lines, they seem to represent waves or water masses.



Beside this possible circular city concentric with canals or flooded moats, and boats in it, there is a horse running frightened, whereas other wavy lines, that could be waves, are reaching to him; And right in front of this possible concentric city with channels or flooded moats, and boats in its interior, to the right, there are more boats and these have very clearly represented oars, rudder, and protoms in the form of head of duck or of equito, and There is also a bull looking towards the same possible concentric circular city. The bull is a main symbol and an attribute of the god Poseidon, and is the main animal to which the Atlanteans worshiped, as we see in Plato's description of Critias about the historical legend of Atlantis.



Someone has argued as counterargument, that those ships are drawn there because the rock is next to a river where the boats were sailing, but this river was never navigable. It has already been studied by geologists. Not even millions of years ago. It is a mere stream with very little depth where it could not have navigated even a small boat without keel or mere canoe, and only in this part that was chosen by the author of the engravings, there is like a small lagoon, the one that is seen in The video, but less than a meter deep for the most part. So probably the inhabitants of this area (which for thousands of years is semi-arid territory) have echoed this place to represent that memory of an ancient disaster that destroyed a concentric circular city that must have been very important or legendary, for Being this part where there was only something that could remember the sea.



They are not kids drawings either, as some said... there are many details that show that they were performed by adults. In addition, in the area there are thousands of similar drawings in open air rock, and, quite simply, it is the linear and figurative style with which these towns of the Southwest of Iberia drew during the Chalcolithic and the Bronze Age. Obviously, if you have never read anything about Art History, specifically about the evolution of figurative and schematic prehistoric art on the Iberian peninsula, you may think they are mere drawings made by a child. That is why it is important to always document, to have an opinion of better quality.



When one sums up all the above, one can then defend - with complete legitimacy - the hypothesis that I have been defending for years that we are before a figurative and schematic representation, of a memorial type, of a city that was concentric, with flooded channels or moats , With ships inside such channels or flooded moats, and that seems to have been swallowed by the waves .. Once we get to this point, what better candita we have than the same tradition of Atlantis?.



We also have many inscriptions. It is a lineal writing very similar to the ancient Proto-Canaanite and Proto-Sinaitic writings, but older, because it appears in places that have been dated between the Chalcolithic and the Bronze Age. The language used is Afrasian, similar to the Semitic and Liberal-Berber languages, and in some of them it is spoken of "a sunken island", "of the place where the island was sunk or submerged", "of a great city destroyed" Among other prayers that can be related to the historical legend of Atlantis.



In the documentary I believe that one of those ancient inscriptions that I defend are going to come out are testimonies of the writing used by the Atlanteans during the Chalcolithic and the Bronze Age. The inscription is written in a cave of Cadiz, Spain, along with seven ships, or long boats, which have oars, rudder, and sail, and also along with Poseidon symbols such as rudder-rudder and trident. The inscription points to the West, towards the Gulf of Cadiz and the Atlantic, and it reads: "the place where the island was submerged".



The fact is that a

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Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
1/31/2017 03:41:34 am

The fact is that a combination like this, only exists (for now), in the Southwest of Iberia, very close to the coasts of the Atlantic side of the Columns of Hercules, just where the beginning of the island Atlantis. 

I hope it is now understood why all this can not be disregarded by the mere argument that there are concentric circles anywhere in the world (as some are claiming) or that the ships are drawn there because they are simply by a river where These were navigating, because this is not the case.

If someone is interested in knowing (in more detail) this oscillating map that could represent a memory of the same historical legend of Atlantis, and wishes to see the exact drawing of what is engraved in the rock, you can find more information on My Page Of facebook, and in my recent book: Atlantis Rising. National and scientific geographic search of Atlantis (January 2017).

My best wishes,
Georgeos
http://www.AtlantisRising.es

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Jason Colavito link
1/31/2017 06:40:55 am

Thank you for taking the time to post this, Georgeos. If you are telling me that I am wrong to criticize a documentary you claim to have advised because it is not deep or detailed enough, it sounds like your problem is really with Simcha Jacobovici for making a bad show. That's not on me.

As I recall, you claim your linguistic expertise from Barry Fell's Epigraphic Society, which immediately calls into question your translation of allegedly "Semitic" text. But the bigger problem is this: You start by saying that you don't believe in the Atlantis described by Plato, and yet you use Plato to "find" matches for all the parts of Atlantis that you just said you don't believe. If you did not have Plato's Atlantis, you would never have imposed his narrative on the petroglyphs. In short, you try to sound scientific but you are simply asking us to accept Plato when convenient for you and allow changes when convenient. That isn't science or research; it's special pleading.

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Al macias
1/31/2017 05:05:51 pm

You insult the ancient Celt-Iberian culture with your nonsense theory.

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Robyn Sullivan
9/25/2018 02:29:33 am

Hi Georgios,

I was interested to hear your arguments, as above. However, if I may make one point, your posts are detracted by your standard of written English, which tends to be rather confused and more incoherent than otherwise.

This difficulty presented in following your post is a shame, because I would have liked to understand more about the points you were trying to make above.

Kind regards
Robyn

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Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
1/31/2017 04:04:16 am

Correct chronology of Atlantis

Atlantis timeline

When did Atlantis appear and when did it disappear?

by Georgeos Díaz-Montexano, Writer, Expert in ancient languages and writing of lost civilizations, Accepted Member of The Epigraphic Society, President Emeritus of the Scientific Atlantology International Society (SAIS), Historical-Scientific Atlantology Adviser for National Geographic Channel and for James Francis Cameron & Simcha Jacobovici Producers.

I have been asked these questions many times. As a matter of fact, they are the most frequently asked questions – alongside with the location of Atlantis- for the last two decades, since I started publishing my investigation about Atlantis.

After all the evidence I have been able to gather over these years (epigraphic and paleographic evidence (written primary sources) and seismological evidence (new findings about seismic tsunamis around the Atlantic area and Gulf of Cadiz)), my most updated and rigorous reply – up to this very moment- is that the end of Atlantis, that is, when it was destroyed by a great seismic-tsunami cataclysm must have happened at some point between 2600 and 1550 BC (and it had nothing to do with volcanoes, as the reading of primary sources made clear). This is the most accurate time frame that I have been able to establish, according to the existing evidence and circumstantial proof. Atlantis timeline can be summarized as follows:

Continues in the following article:http://atlantisng.com/blog/correct-chronology-of-atlantis-when-did-atlantis-appear-and-when-did-it-disappear/

Reply
Only Me
1/31/2017 08:40:00 am

"Correct Chronology of Atlantis"

There isn't one for two reasons:

1) You said you don't believe in Atlantis, therefore, any attempt to produce a chronology for it is pointless. You're trying to apply historicity to a work of fiction.

2) Plato is the creator of the story and he gives us the time of Atlantis' disaster as 9600 BCE. You are trying to argue the creator got it wrong.

As Jason pointed out, without Atlantis providing the reference, you don't have a case. Instead, you would most likely make the same arguments, replacing Atlantis with Lemuria, Mu or any ancient "lost civilization" that's popular.

Reply
DaveR
1/31/2017 10:36:30 am

"...I have never been a fanatical believer in Atlantis, nor do I claim that Atlantis -like described in Plato- has existed."

This your direct statement.

Everything you post regarding Atlantis is a waste of time because you freely admit you don't believe it existed. You use fantastic large words and have some fancy titles which no doubt are meant to give you an air of authority, but if you don't believe in Atlantis as described by Plato, the original author of the story, then in what type of Atlantis do you believe? I hear there's an Atlantis in Las Vegas.

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Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
1/31/2017 12:01:18 pm

His deduction, on what I have argued before, is a typical 'non sequitur' fallacy. If you read well my words and explanations, you will understand that I do not believe there has been such a marvelous Atlantis of great metal-walled walls, or sumptuous palaces or temples covered with ivory, gold, and oricalco. And I support Plutarch, and explain it before, who after making his own inquiries in Egyptian archives where he got even the names of the two priests who told the story to Solon, Sonkhis de Sais and Psenophis of Heliopolis, considered the greatest Sages of those times, Plutarch asserts that Plato adorned or embellished with sumptuous palaces and great walls, the history or legend that these priests had told Solon. So, I have a historical basis. An information from a historian, Plutarch, that allows me not to believe that there really was an Atlantis just as marvelous in architecture.

The point is that I do not believe, I consider and analyze, that it is quite different, because I have not been and will never be a fanatical believer in Atlantis that Plato describes so sumptuous and wonderful that it seems impossible. I believe that Plato's account of Atlantis was based on the notes that Solon brought from Egypt, based on the data that such priests had given him, and that (as Plutarch asserts, he had privileged access to libraries and Egyptian archives), it was a mere outline or exhordium that Plato later completed and embellished with sumptuous buildings and great walls. I believe that the duty of a true atlantologist who takes as a flag and guide, the honest search for truth, wherever he may be, whoever falls, and who respects the historical-scientific method, must focus the search for Indicial proofs and possible evidences, starting from this fact, that the true history that the priests told to him to Solón were not so wonderful or had sumptuous buildings nor great walls, etc. But a culture or civilization of the Metal Age more modest and not too different from their contemporaries.

My best wishes,
Georgeos
Http://www.AtlantisRising.es

Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
1/31/2017 10:43:39 am

1. It is clear that you have not taken the trouble to read the article. He offered the prejudiced answer they already had in his mind. When I speak of the correct chronology of Atlantis, it is clear that I am referring to the correct chronology of Atlantis, according to the account of Plato in his dialogues Timeo and Critias. I am not talking about the correct chronology of a culture or civilization already discovered and scientifically studied. Is it so difficult to understand something so simple?

2. That Plato is the creator of history, is a mere academic assumption of modern times. Because Plato himself explains the existence of notes that Solon had brought from his trip to Egypt, and that these were preserved (as part of the family legacy) in the house of his uncle-grandfather Critias the Lesser. And we also have the testimony of an important Greek historian, Plutarch, who was in Egypt and consulted the most important archives and libraries, and Plutarch himself confirms that it is true that the story or legend was told to Solon by two Egyptian priests, and Offers even their names: Sonkhis of Sais, and Psenophis of Heliopolis. And as he was able to access these data, he also tells us that "Plato embellished the history by adding sumptuous palaces and great walls." Also, Crantor, one of the most reputed and honest philosophers of antiquity, says that in Egypt certain priests showed him stelae with hieroglyphic inscriptions where the same story of the war was told with the Atlanteans that Plato later used for dialogue The Atlantic or Critias. No Classical Greek or Classical Philosophy scholars would dare accuse Crantor of being a liar. We do not even have data or arguments to be able to cause you any motivation. For Crantor did not try to prove or convince anyone of the existence of Atlantis. It is a simple reference or data that he wrote in his Commentaries on the Timaeus, as Proclus believes, Plutarch himself, and others who knew such work of Crantor.

That is to say, that all that part of a wonderful Atlantis of great walls painted or covered of metal and the fabulous temple of Poseidón covered of ivory, gold and oricalco, with great aqueducts above bridges, etc., everything that makes it appear Impossible, would be just what Plato added to the original story, according to the historian Plutarch. So the original story, which was in Solon's notes, would speak of a simpler civilization, more in keeping with the level of the civilizations of the Chalcolithic and the Bronze. On the other hand, if Plato added all that, he could also exaggerate or multiply by double or triple measures, and even the dates themselves. In any case, whether or not the date of the 9000 before Solon is exaggerated, it is not offered in the Timaeus or the Critias as the date of the end of Atlantis, or even as the date of the end times, when the culture Atlante at the top of the evolution, decided then to conquer to other nations. No. None of that is indicated. It is, simply, the date that marks the beginning of the story to be told, the date that fixes the origin of Athens and the origin of Atlantis, when the gods divided the world. The end of Atlantis is set, together with the end of the original Athens, when the great cataclysm that occurred just before the cataclysm of Deucalion. Consequently, the end of Atlantis occurred during the Ogyges cataclysm, set by the Greeks (according to different sources) between 2700 or 2500 BC and 1600 or 1550 BC, because that was just the cataclysm that preceded the cataclysm of Deucalion.

As I demonstrate with the internal analysis of the very texts of Plato (Timaeus and Critias), the date of 9000 years, before the conversation between Solon and the Egyptian priests (which must have happened sometime between 580 BC and 570 BC ), Is the date that is offered for the origin of the history of Athens and Atlantis, because it is the date that is offered for the moment in which the Olympic gods divided the world, having defeated the titans (as all knower Of Greek mythology must know). The error has never been of Plato, but of those who have long tried to interpret and translate Plato. There are 72 known codices. I have all studied in depth, and I am the only atlantologist who has proven to have studied all the codices of Plato's manuscript tradition. So that I know perfectly well that I speak, and I am an expert in that sense, no matter how much I weigh him. They are more than twenty years dedicating every day of my life, almost without rest, nor holidays, and sleeping hardly five hours a day.

My best wishes,
Georgeos

Reply
Jason Colavito link
1/31/2017 11:22:49 am

You say you put more effort into Atlantis than Plato himself did, and yet several points stand out: In the Critias, we read that the war between Atlantis and Athens occurred in 9570 BCE. This contradicts your analysis.

Crantor reported what the Egyptian priests told him, but since he is unlikely to have read hieroglyphics, he is only reporting what he was told, not what actually was written. The priests had a long history of telling Greeks what they wanted to hear.

Plutarch's opinion carries no weight. He had no access to any facts outside of Plato. He was merely offering an opinion, of equal worth with the one inferred from two passages of Strabo by which Aristotle compared Atlantis to the fictitious parts of Homer.

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Tom
1/31/2017 01:41:27 pm

With respect the literary sources are irrelevant in proving the existence of Atlantis the evidence from geological surveys have already demonstrated there have been no large scale disruptions to the Iberian continental shelf or the ocean bed in recent geological history that could possibly account for the disappearance of such an island (capable of supporting a large fleet and population) beneath the sea.
In fact the reverse seems to be the case as Natures energies seems to have concentrated on building mountain ranges and there are an awful lot in that region.

Only Me
1/31/2017 12:02:02 pm

You are correct. I did not trouble myself with reading your nonsense.

And everything you're saying IS nonsense.

First, you tell us you DON'T believe in Plato's Atlantis, now, you're trying to argue you are an expert on that which you don't believe. If you don't believe it, there's no point trying to prove it existed, is there?

ATLANTIS IS A WORK OF FICTION. Always was, always will be. I don't care how much of your life you've wasted on the subject.

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Georgeos Díaz-Montexano link
1/31/2017 01:21:20 pm

Thanks, ONLY ME, for this very intelligent and wise answer.

My best wishes,
Georgeos

Only Me
1/31/2017 01:35:20 pm

You're welcome, Georgeos. I'm always happy to show someone that it is possible to provide an answer that isn't fallacious or dishonest.

Frank
2/2/2017 10:54:10 am

Only Me,

It seems that not only you, but everyone here is bushwhacking poor Georgeos. You are a bold rascal, in making all these affirmative negations. You are as logical as someone making a prediction on the bull's next bowel movements based on the previous evacuation size, shape, and color of the bull's fresh excrements, without knowing what the bull is going to dine on next. In other words, you are dealing out your own kind of colorful and fragrant bullshit (nonsense).

Although you rate it as nonsense, you take no trouble to read the man's work, and yet you assert that everything he says is nonsense. Anyone that thinks along these lines and rules has no business talking or commenting about Plato, even about his long tales, such as Atlantis. My what profound opinions you have on what is true and what is fiction. Have you taken the trouble yourself to come to such mighty speculative assertions, or are you just another tiny creature standing on the shoulders of our intellectual giants as you shout out your words of wisdom?

And what subject(s) have you, if we may ask, wasted your life on? What are you an expert on, besides being an expert of the "fact" that Atlantis was, is, and will always be a fiction?

Wow, you must really be an expert on Plato's Atlantis, as this "was, is, and will be" is the opening that our dear Timaeus uses to lead us in the right direction, by taking the first step for us, leading to the right road which will help us find our "non" existent Atlantis. And based on what Plato applied it to, it seems that you have guessed correctly, as anything that was, or becomes (is) and will be, is not real, as Plato's Timaeus tells us that only IS is real; that which never was, nor will be. Or if you can better understand my kind of bullshit than I can yours, you never were, and never will be, one to understand Plato. And the only thing that you "IS" is a .........

All men who have any right feeling, at the beginning of any enterprise, call upon God; and he who is about to speak of the origin of the universe has a special need of His aid. May my words be acceptable to Him, and may I speak in the manner which will be most intelligible to you and will best express my own meaning!

First, I must distinguish between that which always is and never becomes and which is apprehended by reason and reflection, and that which always becomes and never is and is conceived by opinion with the help of sense. All that becomes and is created is the work of a cause, and that is fair which the artificer makes after an eternal pattern, but whatever is fashioned after a created pattern is not fair. Is the world created or uncreated?—that is the first question. Created, I reply, being visible and tangible and having a body, and therefore sensible; and if sensible, then created; and if created, made by a cause, and the cause is the ineffable father of all things, who had before him an eternal archetype. For to imagine that the archetype was created would be blasphemy, seeing that the world is the noblest of creations, and God is the best of causes. And the world being thus created according to the eternal pattern is the copy of something; and we may assume that words are akin to the matter of which they speak. What is spoken of the unchanging or intelligible must be certain and true; but what is spoken of the created image can only be probable; being is to becoming what truth is to belief. And amid the variety of opinions which have arisen about God and the nature of the world we must be content to take probability for our rule, considering that I, who am the speaker, and you, who are the judges, are only men; to probability we may attain but no further.

Only Me
2/2/2017 11:42:52 am

Skimmed through your comment, Frank, as it became obvious that was a lot of words to say absolutely nothing substantial.

You want to believe in Atlantis? Knock yourself out. You're welcome to your beliefs, but you're not welcome to invent facts to support them.

In closing, I will comment on what I damn well please and whether you agree with my opinion or not means nothing to me.

E Pluribus Unum
12/27/2020 04:06:56 pm

For anyone saying Georgeos claims to believe and not believe in Atlantis: he claims he’s not a ‘fanatical’ believer...

...I cannot recall a single opinion on this page that wasn’t dispassionate, except for one contributor.

Ps if I want a rigorous examination of evidence, I’ll review peer reviewed papers - if I want my whistle whetted, I’ll leave the library.

Anyone who ‘fails’ to apply academic standards to a superficial show, one that successfully discovers new evidence, reveals much.

I found this page after searching for ‘stone circles in caves’.

My advice to anyone here genuinely interested in academic history, learn how historians interpret past events: genuine historians never assert their theories of ‘what was’ - beyond doubt - because it’s almost always impossible to do so given the unavailability of conclusive evidence...

...but if physical evidence is discovered that cannot be explained given established consensus, that’s different: it doesn’t prove ‘what is true’, it merely proves ‘what can no longer be academically accepted’.

V
2/1/2017 02:09:13 am

Maybe you'd like to argue that Prince Genji was an actual historical figure next, instead of the self-acknowledged creation of Lady Murasaki. Or that Narnia can truly be reached through a convenient wardrobe, painting, or hole in the wall. Perhaps that Hogwarts actually floats around, unmapped, in Scotland or Northern England.

This is not "mere academic assumption," it is literally a complete lack of understanding of the difference between fact and fiction. The Timeaus and the Critius were, at BEST, part of the "historical fiction" genre, and the problem with taking your history from "historical fiction" is that you really don't know how well the author researched it--if at all--or how much they changed it to suit their own narrative. It would be like assuming that every word of "Julius Caesar" by Shakespeare was literal truth, when chimney pots didn't EXIST in Republican Rome--to name one detail that stuck out in my head from second-year high school English, where my teacher was explaining this precise concept to my class.

These documents CANNOT be taken as historical fact in the format they are written in. It is literally and BY DEFINITION fiction. That makes everything IN them at BEST fictionalized. Since there are NO other sources before Plato that mention Atlantis--and the Egyptians kept damned good records, thanks--we BY DEFAULT absolutely MUST consider that Atlantis, in all its particulars, is FICTION. Fiction, BY DEFINITION, is not true.

Sorry I had to go all the way back to FIRST GRADE on you, sir, but you clearly needed the refresher.

Reply
Frank
2/4/2017 01:21:17 pm

V,

Apparently you did not need to go too far back, since second- grade seems to be the appropriate class, for now, as to where you may belong; but I have doubts even about that. No wonder you had to go back to first-grade, as you seem not even capable of making up a proper a name. To be a name, a name has to, at least, contain two letters, preferably a vowel and a consonant. You could have at least signed in as Ve, as the sound is the same. And you sound to me like someone who is attempting to be sarcastic. But, in a sentence, its structure, to have meaning, has to also contain the subject. And who was your intended victim (subject) at whom you were slinging your mud at? In other words, for whom the bells tolled? Surely you must have killed the victim with your first-grade level of sarcasm?

You, Ve, have better catch up quickly, and get past second-grade, as this campus will soon close its doors, and anyone without a PhD is out of luck. You seem to be needing to go back a step or two further, as you belong in Kindergarten, at best, if not one more step further back, preschool.

To be or not to be, a philosopher! You selected a bad simile, as Shakespeare gave us playful entertainment, and a few minutes of laughs, if we understand his plays. Whereas Plato, if we understand him, gave us that which will be useful for us for gaining an eternity of laughs.

Yes, I said, my dear Glaucon, for great is the issue at stake, greater than appears, whether a man is to be good or bad. And what will any one be profited if under the influence of honour or money or power, aye, or under the excitement of POETRY, he neglect justice and virtue?

Yes, he said; I have been convinced by the argument, as I believe that any one else would have been.

And yet no mention has been made of the greatest prizes and rewards which await virtue.

What, are there any greater still? If there are, they must be of an inconceivable greatness.

Why, I said, what was ever great in a short time? The whole period of three score years and ten is surely but a little thing in comparison with eternity?

Say rather 'nothing,' he replied.

And should an immortal being seriously think of this little space rather than of the whole?

Of the whole, certainly. But why do you ask?

Are you not aware, I said, that the soul of man is immortal and imperishable?

He looked at me in astonishment, and said: No, by heaven: And are you really prepared to maintain this?

Yes, I said, I ought to be, and you too—there is no difficulty in proving it.......

And thus, "Ve," the tale has been saved and has not perished, and will save us if we are obedient to the word spoken; and we shall pass safely over the river of Forgetfulness and our soul will not be defiled. Wherefore my counsel is, that we hold fast ever to the heavenly way and follow after justice and virtue always, considering that the soul is immortal and able to endure every sort of good and every sort of evil. Thus shall we live dear to one another and to the gods, both while remaining here and when, like conquerors in the games who go round to gather gifts, we receive our reward. And it shall be well with us both in this life and in the pilgrimage of a thousand years which we have been describing.



Atilano
7/28/2017 05:36:17 pm

El que derriva de Baal

YsBaal

El que soporta la sociedad

Atlantis=Ysbaalanya=Hispalis=Hispania

Busca por debajo de la Gran Iglesia

Reply
Bob Jase
1/31/2017 12:12:11 pm

Atlantis - the most magical land of all because it existed everywhere and everytime depending on what you want it to be as long as you're willing to ignore the lack of evidence.

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T. Franke link
1/31/2017 01:42:20 pm

I feel obliged to contradict Jason's thesis that all Atlantis search melts down to the attempt to find a mythical foundation for Western civilization or imperialism or racism or something like that. This is an obvious exaggeration, although there's a grain of truth in it.

It was only natural that Plato's Atlantis story was used to explain the discovery of the new world of America. The imperialistic argument in this time was not Atlantis, but the right of the first discoverer. So, the British did *not* argue with Atlantis to justify their claims in America (which they indeed called Atlantis at that time), but with the myth of a certain Welsh prince Medoc who allegedly traveled to America before Columbus.

Let me remind also of the (Ex-)Jesuit Sigüenza who argued in favour of the oppressed red Indian population in Spanish America with the argument that they are descendants of Atlantis as well as the Europeans -- this is an interesting anti-racist use of the Atlantis story, isn't it?

It is necessary to be more precise than Jason Colavito: We have to make a difference between (a) the cradle of Western civilization, (b) the cradle of humankind, (c) the cradle of a certain (modern) people, (d) the cradle of a certain race. Atlantis was nothing of this, but it is worth to notice that Atlantis as the cradle of humankind does not serve as a justification for racism or imperialism, but rather the opposite: All humans are related according to this view. There is a big difference between search for Atlantis and abuse of the Atlantis story. It is simply not true that all Atlantis search melts down to some ideological project in the sense stated here.

If you read Pierre Vidal-Naquet about the matter: He is wrong in many ways, and in many details. For German-speaking readers I recommend my own research on this: Thorwald C. Franke, Kritische Geschichte der Meinungen und Hypothesen zu Platons Atlantis, 2016. 600 pages, 1000 footnotes, 750 entries in the persons index. And no pictures (it is a serious work which is not intended to sell to the masses, but for those who want to know.) See https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-geschichte-hypothesen.htm

Concerning Delisle de Sales' hypothesis about Sardinia as Atlantis: For Delisle de Sales, Sardinia was only a remainder of a bigger island of Atlantis in the Western medieterranean, and the cradle of the Atlanteans was the Caucasus / Himalaya region, not this island Atlantis. Obviously, Delisle de Sales was on a wrong way in many ways. But Atlantis as justification for the French revolution? No. It is rather an enthusiastic and literary approach to the contemporary results of geology and historiography of his time. What was science in his time became pseudo-science in later times (or better: In the hands of such a populist writer as Delisle de Sales it could only be pseudo-science).

Nevertheless, the question of an ideological background for an Atlantis hypothesis is fully justified. Of course, there are "evil" hypotheses. But this is not a use, but an abuse of the Atlantis story. Somebody, who talks of races, or of bloodlines, or who constructs superiority of certain peoples, or wants to find "Western" roots for Jewish religion is on an obscure way of thought. If Atlantis existed as a real place in the sense of a distorted historical tradition (this is what I am convinced of), then it was a rather unspectacular place, and was far from all the phantasies which have been made up around the theme.

I want to thank Jason Colavito again for his work and his quest for evil motivations behind Atlantis hypotheses. He is wrong in his generalization, but in the actual cases he often hits the point. Let me add the most simple evil motivation of all on which Jason should recur more often: Simple greed for money.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
1/31/2017 01:53:46 pm

Let's just be clear that looking to Atlantis as the source of Western Civilization isn't inherently evil, racist, imperialist, etc. The examples you cited also attempt to use Atlantis as a source for the West, but do so for more humane purposes. Even some imperialists thought that they were being humane to declare various cultures fellow descendants of Atlantis. But, historically, people outside of Western Civilization haven't cared much for Atlantis, because the myth doesn't speak to them and their experiences. It is a Western legend, inseparable from the civilization that spawned it.

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T. Franke link
1/31/2017 02:14:36 pm

Plato's Atlantis is not a "Western" story but a Greek story, maybe with a weak or strong core of Egyptian historical tradition. Greece in the ancient times was not the "West", but simply Greece and Greece alone. The civilizations which followed on the Greco-Roman empires are all not (!) Greek but Germanic or Arabic etc.

We are all heirs, only.

The ancient Greek culture belongs to all who want to open themselves for it. This is what made the Christian world the "Western" world. But other worlds could open for the ancient Greek culture, too, and partly did so. More or less, the process of the "Grecification" of the whole world is going on and on and on.

I am pretty sure that Plato's thoughts speak to all human beings on the world. This is one of the core idea of humanism: That we all share the same ability to use reason and feel mercy, and to strive for the good. The influence of Plato's thought in all the world cannot be overlooked. Even Chinese communism is part of it.

And in the end .... even the worst ideologist Atlantis searcher is right in one thing: All the civilizations on this world know flood myths, and so the Atlantis story is speaking to them in this sense. I just think of the crazy Indonesian search for Atlantis.

Oliver Smith
2/5/2017 11:50:40 pm

"Let me add the most simple evil motivation of all on which Jason should recur more often: Simple greed for money."

Funny. Which is why you advertise your pseudo-historical books here? And why are they so expensive?

If you're a genuine Atlantis hunter why charge? Your books are like $30-40 each. If you're not it for greed of the money - why not make your work free to read?

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Tristan
1/31/2017 03:15:25 pm

I was a little disappointed in the audio mixing and narration, it seemed to have been rushed or not polished. The background music was a little too loud while the host was narrating in an odd tone. I wonder if they cut this down from a mini-series or season long project, the amount of travel and locations compares to a half of a season of Hunting Aliens or an America Unearthed type of show.

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Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
1/31/2017 03:26:02 pm

I'm sorry, Mr. Colavito, but it's not like you think. I see you have not read my article (you probably do not want to). If I had read it, I would have been able to check every one of the points I believe based on what is actually said in Plato's texts, even in Greek texts. There is only one passage, in Critias 108, which is contradictory to all other clear references that the date of 9000 is the date of the beginning of the story, not of the end.

That single passage, it turns out, is not the same in some of the oldest codices in the preserved manuscript tradition (72 codices) of the works of Plato, Timaeus and Critias. In some there is not one word, in others there are not two, and the meaning changes radically. The literal reading is that "Let us remember, first of all, that the sum of the time elapsed was 9000 years, when then arose war between those who inhabited the interior of the Columns of Hercules and those who lived outside These, in the Atlantic ".

That is, 9000 years had passed since the origin of the original Athens and the origin of Atlantis itself (since both began at the same time, when the gods divided the world), and that is when the war happens , Which happens in the final times of civilization. That means that the war and final stage of the Atlantis civilization happens not long before the beginning of the millennium where Solon lived, which would be the tenth millennium, or at the end of the ninth millennium, which would correspond to the second millennium BC.

The point is that most translators have completely neglected this translation: "when then ...", and have been left alone with the translation: "from when ...". The last copyist (we recall that the complete copies of the most ancient surviving Plato's writings of Timaeus and Critias are Byzantine, and by that time numerous copies had been made since Plato's death), he used an ambiguous expression that can translate the same , "When", than as "from when". But depending on what meaning you use, radically changes the sense of the passage. All translators of modern times (who have simply copied one from another) have preferred to keep the option, "from when."

But it is truly incompressible that no one has noticed all those passages of the same Timaeus and Critias where it is more than clear that the date of 9000 is the date of the beginning of the story, not the end. How could the Athenian primitives, newborn of the earth, or newly created, on that same date of the 9000 before Solon, already had a powerful advanced civilization with armies able to defeat the same Atlantean kings with his great army, when In fact, the first ten Atlanteans, the sons of Poseidon and Clito, were just born, and there was not even a city, nor did they know the art of navigation as clearly indicated in Critias himself?

It would have sufficed with this absurd contradiction to translate, "when then ...", instead of, "from when ...". But, in addition to this contradiction, are all the clear references that I have put in my article that show that 9000 is the date of origin, the beginning of the old story to be narrated, not the end. Clear references explaining how, after that origin (fixed in 9000 before Solon) the Atlanteans gradually evolved, generations after generations, over a period of time, many centuries, etc., until they reach their maximum power and arrive To the top of civilization, already in the middle of the Metal Age.

With all these clear references found in the same Timaeus and Critias, the only translation that could have been made of the passage of Critias 108 is: "Let us remember, first of all, that the sum of the time passed WAS of 9000 years, when Then war arose between those who dwell inside the Pillars of Hercules and those who lived outside these, in the Atlantic, "and not as it is usually translated:" ... 9000 years, since (or since) The war arose ... ".

I have previously emphasized IT WAS, because just that verbal time (ἦν imperf ind act) is consistent with the translation that by inter-textual logic and considering the context, and the various variants in the codices, had to be done, that is, When ... ", or" when then ... ". If the correct translation were, "since ...", or "from when ...", IT WAS (ἦν imperf ind act) would not have been used, but, IS (ἐστί pres ind act) Which would be talking about the time from the end of Atlantis to the present time of the conversation.

Thus, we have clear evidence of poor translation that has not been corrected over time. In the Greek text it is written ἦν (imperf ind act), 'IT WAS', but it has always been translated as if what was written is another verbal tense, ἐστί (pres ind act), 'IS'.

After indicating the sum or totality of years (9000 years) follows two words: ἀφ and οὗ. And here is the other problem. If they are read as separate, as they are written, the meaning of the whole passage changes and

Reply
Bob Jase
1/31/2017 03:44:49 pm

" 9000 years had passed since the origin of the original Athens and the origin of Atlantis itself "

Wait, are you now claiming that Athens has existed for some 18,000 years? Evidence please because no arxcheologist has seen any.

"How could the Athenian primitives, newborn of the earth, or newly created, on that same date of the 9000 before Solon"

Now are you claiming that Athens &/or the world was created around 10,000 years ago? Because geologists would certainly disagree.

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Thegrim
1/31/2017 03:51:03 pm

I am proud of my Spanish ancestry. But I know that the petroglyphs shown are from celt-iberian culture. Not this stupid atlantis that is a fiction of plato.
That imbecile has no clue that horned warriors fought the Romans. I studied Celt-Iberian and Spanish history for ovet 25 years.

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Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
1/31/2017 04:44:30 pm

Mr Colavito: As for Crantor, you are confused. Crantor reported that the priests preserved stelae with inscriptions where the same war of the Atlantiques against the Athenians was narrated. It is not said in the quotation of Proclus "that he was told or told that such stelae existed." Crantor offers firsthand testimony, and there is no reasonable or justifiable reason to doubt his intellectual honesty.

The passage written by Proclus, literally and grammatically, reads as follows: "And (Crantor) testifies - according to says - about the prophets (priests) of the Egyptians, and of the stelae that are still preserved with the writings commented ...."

To give testimony, to testify (μάρτυρουσις), was used in antiquity in the sense of having witnessed, having seen with their own eyes what is narrated or described, or having lived a situation.

Now, it turns out that in recent times an important scholar, Harold Tarrant, has translated the passage in reverse, against all grammatical rule and syntactic order: "He says that the prophets of the Egyptians also give evidence, saying that these things are inscribed on stelas that still survive"

t is enough to go to the primary source, in this case, to the codices that are preserved from the work of Proclo to see how that is not the syntactic order. The only acceptable translation (which in fact is almost the same as other great scholars of generations prior to Tarrant), is the following: "And (Crantor) testifies (according to he says) about the prophets (priests) of the Egyptians, and the stelae that are still preserved with the writings commented .... "

It is not the same thing that Proclus tells us that Crantor is who testifies or that gave witness about the stelae, wich to say, that "Crantor says that the Egyptian priests give evidence, saying that these things are inscribed on stelas that still survive." Tarrant's distorted translation attempts to destroy Crantor's testimonial value for the simple reason that being a serious, honest and reputed ancient author would be strong evidence that Plato did not invent the history of Atlantis, and as Plutarch himself confirms, was a story told by two Egyptian priests. We all know that Tarrant is an author, of those who still believe that it is a mere tale invented by Plato.

For those who have a sufficient knowledge of ancient Greek grammar, I leave this link to the passage in question. You can see how the sentence just starts with μάρτυρουσις, while Tarrant who puts it in 'give evidence' places it far back, right where it suits you to discredit the value of such important testimony of Crantor:

https://books.google.es/books/content?id=ckhCAQAAMAAJ&hl=es&pg=PA54&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U2LAdWulXEj6TelmPwrNmn3nfctjg&ci=163%2C291%2C737%2C61&edge=0

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Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
1/31/2017 04:57:19 pm

That you say that the opinion of a historian as important as Plutarch has no weight when he spent some time in Egypt and tried first hand with priests and their fountains and when he offers us even the names of the two priests who narrated The story to Solon (as I have explained before), and tells us that Plato embellished or adorned the original story that was in the mere exhordio of Solon, with sumptuous buildings and great walls. If you say that every stock was held by Plutarch, it does not deserve any value, because then, for my part, there is nothing more to debate. It is clear to me what his category is as a skeptic, and that it will be completely useless for me to make an effort to argue or prove anything.

Finally tell him that of Aristotle, is one of the biggest falsehoods, or greater misinterpretation created and kept too long. This was already well dismantled by T. Franke and myself. We both did it independently without knowing that the other did the same. But whether you read the work of T. Franke or read mine, the conslaration will see that it is the same. Aristotle's argument is completely false. There is no evidence that Aristotle ever criticized Atlantis or compared it with the construction of Homer's walls or anything like it.

 I say goodbye to you, not without first thanking you for the time you have given me.

My best wishes always,
Georgeos

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Jason Colavito link
1/31/2017 07:22:12 pm

I examined the passages on Aristotle long ago, and I know well that it is an interpretation based on unrelated sections reported in Strabo. But you are happy to offer interpretations when they fit your agenda and reject them when they don't. Case in point: You spill much ink over Crantor, yet you omit that the plain reading is that the Egyptian priests told Crantor what the pillars allegedly said, not that he read them himself. For the benefit of our readers, I will give the lines, which you translate somewhat irregularly (seemingly by taking words in order rather than by grammatical function), in English: "Crantor adds, that this is testified by the prophets [i.e., priests] of the Egyptians, who assert that these particulars [which are narrated by Plato] are written on pillars which are still preserved” (trans. Thomas Taylor). When you say no one doubts Crantor, you seem unaware of the critical analyses in English:

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/the-first-believer-why-early-atlantis-testimony-is-suspect

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Frank
2/2/2017 12:05:37 pm

Gentlemen,

While all you experts and intellectual giants on history and Plato, and whatever else, are lost in translations and fables, our world is in peril. Look to the sign of the times and what has really "gone down." America, the USA to be exact, the newest Atlantis, and under Atlas' latest offspring of the long line of "kings," Trump, is tempting Zeus. Before we all know it, and before anyone of you genius, and masters of discourse, really figures out Plato, or rather, Socrates, we may be eyewitnesses to just how a continent can, in reality, sink in just one day and one night.

Take Plato on his word, Atlantis, any Atlantis, will always be defeated, in the end, by any Just Republic. Contrary to popular belief, Atlantis is not the fabulous utopian land mankind seeks, but rather, it's its adversary, Ancient Athens. And which represents Plato's Republic, led by its philosopher-king and his army of philosopher-warriors citizens.

Now, the USA is, more and more, resembling an Atlantis empire. Our USA had good, sound, and just principles in its beginning, but, even though, thereafter and for many decades, it had made strides to live up to those good laws and principles established by our forefathers, such as making all men really equal and free, as our constitution declares, we are now marching backwards. As Trump, and all his hand-picked staff, are wanting to make our very own Republic into a monarchy, or worst, a tyrannical state. This Trump is one that holds dear just what our good philosophical guardians were to have shunned the most, and which were; gold, silver, orichalcum, luxury, and honors. Trump, at the cost of virtue, is spreading this "gold-fever" of his throughout our land, wanting all of us citizens, and not just the rich 1%, to become as greedy, unscrupulous, and ruthless as he is, in obtaining these worthless material things. And which he considers as making America Great Again in his eyes, and in the eyes of most of the wealthy too. He trumps out these great notes; America first, and the hell with everyone else; jobs, more jobs, and more riches, and more, and more material things for all Americans, and just the wealthy. And wealth, as we all know, makes mankind happy!

But Zeus, who sits in the middle of the universe and sees everything, has got a different point of view, and sees things as they really are. And how are things in the USA that will become great again under Atlas' latest offspring?

Such was the vast power which god settled in the lost island of Atlantis; and this he afterwards directed against our land for the following reasons, as tradition tells: For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them. By such reflections and by the continuance in them of a divine nature, the qualities which we have described grew and increased among them; but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power. Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows

Bruce
2/1/2017 09:42:29 am

Its starting to sound like the standard mish mash of the Pillars of Boaz and Jachin combined w/ the later musings of Sir Francis Bacon's view of the New Atlantis. A bedtime story turned into a legend that reveals all the unexplained aspects of history......LOL.

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Oliver Smith
2/5/2017 09:55:55 pm

There's no evidence Solon went to Egypt. Notice how virtually every Atlantis proponent just accepts Solon travelled there without even examining the sources.

"[T]here is no reliable historical evidence Solon (c. 640 – c. 560 BCE) visited Egypt during his lifetime (Lloyd, 1975: 56-57). Herodotus’ The Histories (c. 440 BCE) has to be rejected as a historical source because it dates Solon’s trip between 569 – 560 BCE when Amasis (II) was pharaoh (Hdt. 1. 29). The problem is Herodotus also states Solon visited
Egypt immediately after his archonship (594/3 BCE) during a period of ten years when he
travelled abroad (Hdt. 1. 30). It is hard to make much sense of this chronological error, but
attempts have been made to revise Solon’s archonship twenty year later (Miller, 1969). Such
revisions are unnecessary when it is realized Herodotus’ The Histories includes a made up
story about Solon visiting Lydia (Forsyth, 1980: 34-35), in other words stories about Solon
should be read with caution. Aristotle in his Athenian Constitution (11. 1) repeats Herodotus’
claim Solon travelled to Egypt as part of a ten year journey but source criticism should not
gloss over the fact Aristotle (384 – 322 BCE) lived two centuries after Solon. A fragment from
a poem attributed to Solon by Plutarch (c. 100 CE) does mention the Nile Delta, but he could
have written it without first-hand knowledge; the fragment5 cannot be Solon’s unfinished
Atlantis poem – it mentions nothing about Atlantis.
http://shimajournal.org/issues/v10n2/d.-Smith-Shima-v10n2.pdf

To quote classicist Alan B. Lloyd (full reference in article above-

"The evidence for Solon's visit to Egypt does not exist — probably never existed — and that is where the matter must be left."

But a solution would be to say Solon heard the Atlantis story while in another country, and this has been argued. Although its very unlikely.

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Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
2/6/2017 09:41:08 am

Yes, of course, there probably were not existed Herodotus, Plutarch, Plato, and Aristotle himself (authors who never doubted the existence of Solon, among many others).

How do we assume that a certain ancient author existed? For in exactly the same way that the existence of the authors I have just cited is accepted, because their names are quoted by other authors who in most cases are authors who wrote several centuries.

In any case, for me, the criterion of any historian, philosopher or ancient geographer (even if he wrote 100, 200 or 300 years later) will be much more reliable and credible than the mere speculation of all university professors and university doctors of the times Modern, because if we apply that same ridiculous fallacy of temporal distance, then modern authors are unreliable, as they are speculating more than 2000 years later.

Best wishes to everyone,
Georgeos
Http://www.AtlantisRising.org
Http://www.AtlantiSais.org

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Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 05:23:18 pm

Except we have a reference to a passage from Herodotus' Histories as early as 414 BCE. Its found in Aristophanes Birds who is mocking Herodotus. To quote classicist Alan B. Lloyd (source above): "There is undoubted parody of the Histories in Aristophanes' Birds produced in 414". Regardless, Herodotus' date is firmly established from internal evidences, his The Histories constructs an inferred audience of the 430s/420s and he acknowledged he was still writing during the Peloponnesian War. The c. 440 BCE date is just an approximate estimate when he began writing, but he continued his The Histories for over a decade. More internal evidences establish a terminus post quem and terminus ante quem for Herodotus. For example he is known to have written The Histories in New Ionic Greek. That dates him between 600 and 300 BCE since as an "official" dialect, New Ionic Greek was defunct by 300 BCE. These estimates can be narrowed down with more internal evidence. And as I noted we know Herodotus work was already known to satirists at the end of the 5th century BCE.

The issue is not that Solon didn't exist; there is evidence he did and no classicist disputes this. What classicists dispute is whether Solon went to Egypt. There is a lack of evidence Solon went there. Herodotus in this instance has to be disregarded as a historical source because as Lloyd says its chronological nonsense: Herodotus contradicts himself when Solon travelled to Egypt. Furthermore he was writing well over a century after Solon.

I didn't say sources describing events centuries later should be dismissed automatically, but they aren't reliable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_criticism#Principles

"The closer a source is to the event which it purports to describe, the more one can trust it to give an accurate description of what really happened."

Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
2/6/2017 06:07:10 pm

About if Solon was be present in Egypt, or no, I say the same: for me, the criterion of any historian, philosopher or ancient geographer (even if he wrote 100, 200 or 300 years later) will be much more reliable and credible than the mere speculation of all university professors and university doctors of the Modern Times Modern, because if we apply that same ridiculous fallacy of temporal distance, then modern authors are not reliable, because they are speculating more than 2000 years later.

So, until the contrary is proved (but this is impossible to prove), for me, is very likely that Solon effectively visited Egypt.

My best wishes,
Georgeos

Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 09:07:27 pm

Ok. Thanks for proving you don't understand source criticism/historical method.

Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 12:04:57 am

"by Georgeos Díaz-Montexano, Writer, Expert in ancient languages and writing of lost civilizations, Accepted Member of The Epigraphic Society, President Emeritus of the Scientific Atlantology International Society (SAIS), Historical-Scientific Atlantology Adviser for National Geographic Channel and for James Francis Cameron & Simcha Jacobovici Producers."

Aka crank. There appears to be a tendency to claim or imply impressive-sounding academic careers/affiliations/titles among Atlantologists to seem credible, when these academic careers/affiliations/titles are all phony. "President Emeritus of the Scientific Atlantology International Society" is Georgeos Díaz-Montexano own organisation that only exists in name only.

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Georgeos Diaz-Montexano link
2/6/2017 09:14:00 am

Is it so difficult to verify or inform one first before launching defamation about someone?

On the cover of my website: http://www.AtlantisRising.es (and in my official blog: http://www.AtlantidaHistorica.com, and in almost all my pages and accounts of social networks) appears in a clear way A link to the SAIS website. Did not you really see that link? (Http://www.Atlantisais.org)

I have just been appointed President Emeritus, in the category of Honorary Member, through this honorary position SAIS intends to acknowledge my contributions of more than twenty years to Historical-Scientific Atlantology, but the SAIS has an executive directive constituted by other researchers. Its president is Doctor César Guarde-Paz of the University of Barcelona, ​​and its Vice-president is the historian (graduated by the University of Cadiz) D. Miguel Galindo del Pozo. Among the Honorary Members is also Doctor Antonio Morillas Esteban, from the same University of Barcelona. But none of them is a young man recently left the University, but they are professionals with years of experience.

We have received a request from several doctors and graduates from several universities in the world. At the next meeting of the SAIS will be approved and their names will appear later in an upcoming web update.

Best wishes to everyone,
Georgeos
Http://www.GeorgeosDiazMontexano.com

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Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 05:51:58 pm

Dude, stop with the nonsense. You don't even have a degree (at least not one in a relevant field to Plato) and you've been criticized all over the web for misleading people about your credentials. You're a crank. And everything you've posted here is pseudo-history.

I'm actually open to historical Atlantis theories because while the consensus is Atlantis is most probably fiction (with good reason), an historical Atlantis hasn't been falsified and I developed my own 4 years ago. But your stuff is just junk. Its not even an original hypothesis, you're just regurgitating stuff from decades ago that has already been debunked. And of course, none of your publications are peer-reviewed.

Georgeos Díaz-Montexano link
2/6/2017 06:14:54 pm

Thank you Mr. Smith, for presenting such clever and ethical arguments. I congratulate to you on such wisdom and for that great sense of decorum and knowing how to debate with true scientific-historical rigor, and without appeal to any kind of abusive fallacy.

My best wishes, always,
Georgeos
http://www.AtlantisRising.es

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Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 06:46:32 pm

@ Georgeos

I have a classics degree. My work on Atlantis is also peer-reviewed. You don't have a degree and none of your work is published in scholarly journals. Do you see the difference?

The problem with the "Atlantis community" is its filled with cranks, pseudo-historians, eccentrics, amateur researchers and just plain imbeciles. That's why I left that community two years ago. Unfortunately its because of people like you and Thorwald C. Franke no sane person will touch Atlantis with a barge pole. As A.G. Galanopolous and Edward Bacon wrote in their book Atlantis: The Truth Behind the Legend:

"The very word 'Atlantis' casts a chill over the rational man."

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Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 06:24:28 pm

I cannot find anything about Miguel Galindo del Pozo or Doctor Antonio Morillas Esteban. However, a search-engine result shows César Guarde-Paz holds a PhD in Chinese Philosophy. Why not Western? Can you find someone with a PhD in Western Philosophy who believes Atlantis is real? They don't seem to exist.

Plato scholar Julia Annas, Regents Professor of Philosophy at the University of Arizona:

"I take it that the Atlantis story is fiction, something which I cannot argue fully for here, but has been convincingly established by scholarly work."

- Annas, J. (2010). “The Atlantis story: the Republic and the Timaeus”. In: Plato’s Republic, A Critical Guide. MacPherran, M. L (ed.). Cambridge University Press: 52.

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Oliver Smith
2/7/2017 12:18:12 am

Basically a log about Georgeos' dubious credentials/affiliations:
https://www.samizdata.net/2003/10/prehistoric-eu-found-in-the-st/

See comments.

"Furthermore, Georgeos lists Epigraphy and Palaeolinguistics as topics he has studied; he then lists both the International Epigraphic Society and the Barry Fell Foundation of Harvard University as if he studied at these two locations. What is really funny about this, however, is if you go the Harvard University webpage and do a search for the Barry Fell Foundation, it returns 0 results! In fact, I can’t find ANYTHING on any Barry Fell Foundation. The Midwest Epigraphic Society is based here in Columbus, Ohio and I will be contacting them soon to ask about Georgeos’ claims, as well.

I am currently researching and trying to obtain a list of the 1991 “Carlos de la Torre National Award” recipients, and when I do, I’ll wager his name is not on it! If not, you can rest assured that I will be posting a copy of this in the Atlantis Rising Forum!

The excavations he claims to have been on were probably just in a volunteer capacity, and as such he would have been hauling and sifting bucket after bucket of excavated material (dirt) – NOT carefully revealing archaeological treasures with a patiche and brush!

All of the “Journals” he claims to have founded, and “Projects of Exploration and Investigation” he claims to have conducted, appear to be nothing more than his own “creations” – listed for the express purpose of “impressing” people.

Lastly, and most humorously (I believe), is his claim of being a “linguist”, and yet, in almost all of the languages he professes to be able to translate and read, he lists his skill level as “basic”! In not one language does he even claim to have an “Intermediate” skill level, except in Ancient Egyptian, and his knowledge of hieroglyphics does not stand in testament to that claim."

This guy though will scream "defamation" if you challenge his dodgy background and lies.

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Frank
2/8/2017 01:33:54 pm

Oliver, you say this; "I will be posting a copy of this in the Atlantis Rising Forum!" I peruse some similar sites, and also Atlantis Rising, and read what those that post there have to say on Atlantis, and I have noted that someone with the user name of "Oliver" is one of those posting. Would you be that particular Oliver posting there? Or if not, do you post on any of those Atlantis subject sites?

And I also read here on one of your posts that you are in Columbus, OH. What a coincidence, and such good fortune for you that Columbus, the man, was one of Plato's faithful believers in a real Atlantis. It was the only thing that kept him faithful that he would not fall off the edge of the world, as all others told him that he would. Columbus must have had lots of faith in Plato's words about Atlantis and those other islands, and the boundless continent being located to the west of the Strait of Gibraltar, which would stop him from falling. All others had warned Columbus not go west to reach the eastern Indian peninsula. Surely, the fiction of Atlantis had its positive attributes too! Sometimes, gullible fairy tales believers contribute to real history making. And although the American continent would have been rediscovered sooner or later, after Columbus did, history may have been rewritten, and we may not have been here now, as we are, discussing Atlantis. And so, even fairy tales change the course of time and history. Thanks Plato!

And finally, I read that you too were a seeker once. What did you find? Where and when did your Atlantis exist? And if you don't mind, may I may ask what are your publications on Atlantis that your peers have reviewed? Are they for sale, and can you provide a link to them where they can be had?

Thanks,

P.S. I see that you have replaced Jason in the exchanges with Mr. Diaz-Montexano. Friendly sparring is always the way to go, unless dialectic can be used, properly, by one or both sides.

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David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆ link
2/7/2017 11:49:17 am

Atlantis... historical fiction by Plato, ~1% real oral history.
Referred to the ancient deluge of the post-glacial 7.7ka deluge due to the marine (Atlantic) incursion of the Black Sea (thus "Atlantis"), the same 'root' interpreted in 10 different Hero stories (Ziusudra, Utnapishtim, Noah, Manu, Atrahasis, Atlantis etc.).

Georgeos Díaz-Montexano: The literal reading is that "... who inhabited the interior of the Columns of Hercules and those who lived outside These, in the Atlantic ".

One Roman travel writer noted that there were two sets of Columns of Hercules, one in the western Med. (Straits of Gibralter), the other in the eastern Med.(Straits of Bosphorus).

At the deluge era, there was no Mediterranean Sea, no Aegean Sea, no Euxine/Black Sea... there was only Atlantic Ocean. I put Crimea as the legendary Isle of Atlantis.

Jason, Oliver, any comments on this idea would be appreciated.

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Frank
2/8/2017 12:51:19 pm

Triple D, forget about Jason and Oliver, as you already have your own comments to rate the probability of your hypothesis as being plausible for your speculative location of a Crimean Atlantis. It's a 1% real possibility, and 99% pure "bullshit" and historical fiction coming from your own wild imagination. I say it's a new Russian propaganda, since they have now, with Trump's approval, incorporated it into Russia, and are seeking a new wave of tourism, to recoup their war expenses. And that is why they want James Cameron and Simcha Jacobovici to promote it, by enticing them to go there and dig up all that fabulous Atlantean wealth. Who knows, they may even find that ancient mine with all that great amount of orichalcum too. Then you could be the "expert" on site, like Georgeos was for the last NG documentary.

What are your credentials; do you know how to use a shovel? because there will be lot's of bulls' shit to be dug up before you can start seeing all those circles, as the Atlanteans sacrificed lots of bulls. And do you speak Russian, besides Atlantean Egyptian, and Greek, and Latin, etc? What professional "circles" do you belong to? And just as a reminder, there are more than two locations for the Pillars of Heracles, as we have more than just one Roman traveler to content with, Greek travelers too, Herodotus for one. And then you have to keep in mind how devious those Italian Romans can get. But perhaps your are making the mistake of making out Marco Polo to be a Roman, as he was actually a Venetian, and he went clear past Atlantis, from the opposite side to the one Plato indicated. Is this the Roman traveler you are referring to, Marco Polo?

But is your idea for Crimea a new and a refreshing place for our Atlantis to be? Could it be that someone has already claimed it? I know that we have Atlantis already lying all over the face of the earth, but to be sure that you will not be sued for stealing (plagiarizing) someone's else claim to that particular, and specific location, you have better check with that inexhaustible, wealth of information place, Atlantipedia.ie

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Gary
7/5/2017 11:52:48 am

Well put Jason just watched this very poor on solid facts docufantasy and got 30 minutes in before turning off.
Santorini has been proven the most likely location so to brush it aside so easily and wander around the Med in a boat dropping Cameron's name at any opportunity was the only way this fellow was gonna get a film out!
Shows how money and backing can bury the facts!

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Shane ONeal
3/5/2018 11:23:28 pm

Just caught the last part of the documentary, then googled and found this blog.

Fact or fiction, I found this work entertaining and intriguing and was left longing for more. I suspect this is what its' creators were going for, and that they can be satisfied in having created an artful tease that takes the neo-NatGeo docu-tainment formula to the next level.

For all the hype surrounding the mythology and whether it maps to an actual place on the map, the piece that I saw featured the discovery of real looking artifacts like bronze age anchors all clustered together off the coast of Spain. As a lay person, I have no reason to doubt that those artifacts were discovered during the course of filming the show. I imagine it takes lots and lots of money to pay people to find and study such artifacts. I don't see the harm in using entertainment to fund real research.

Ultimately, the sponsors of NatGeo are paying for it in hopes of luring me in and pitching me their products, and therefore I am also subsidizing this venture. I personally approve the use of my free time for this purpose, and so did all of you by watching the show and participating in the dialogue here, whether serious, tongue-in-cheek or downright gutter troll in nature.

My thanks to Georgeos for provoking thought and to Jason for hosting the conversation and playing the thoughtful skeptic.

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Joseph
3/6/2018 01:30:11 am

Excellent review of what happens when self proclaimed 'experts' with no academic/ archaeological training make a mockumentary. We see this rather frequently here in Israel where biblical 'scholars' pass themselves off as archaeologists and American universities, concerned more with how many times one appears on TV than peer review publications, enable this. As Professor Y. Bauer recently said 'they take legends, myths and make them into facts'.

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Lyn McConchie link
9/24/2018 12:21:50 am

ah HA! And you're all wrong. The continent of Zealandia was Atlantis (at least most of it is sunken) it has strange creatures (although no elephants but we can forget them) and therefore All New Zealanders are the inheritors of Atlantis. (Well, that's as good a theory as that documentary, isn't it.)

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Barry Sears link
9/24/2018 07:46:50 am

I over the past 25 years have been researching a basic design and the meaning of the ancient zodiac. The revolutionary discovery is that the concept of "as above so below" connects each of the zodiac signs to twelve zones around the equator of Earth. To read the energies of our surrounding Celestial zodiac it is defined that we should study the World itself. It has become obvious that each of the twelve zones around the equator of Earth contain ancient monuments that correlate to the twelve Celestial zodiac signs. These signs now appear to be Earthly observations, animals and anatomical variations from our World and then projected to the Heavenly band in the sky.

Traditionally the twelve anatomical parts combine to form the full body easily identifiable as the full body of Nut, the Celestial body and Geb the Earthly body. Each zodiac signs relates to the different body parts. The ram is the sign of Aries and connects to the head region. The ram has the distinguishing feature of the horns on the head. If we divide the Earth into twelve now and jump to Egypt the Lion has the unique mane here and connects to the lung/ heart point of the body. In ancient Egypt the mighty sphinx makes this first connection to the Worlds anatomy. This connects the Celestial body point of Leo to the World body and Egypt and the human lung position. Beside Leo is the womb region and beside Egypt is the land of Virgo, Israel. This was cemented by Mr Christ and the virgin Mary. We then move into the point of balance, the scales an iconic symbol from this region. The pivoting middle point of the body. Jumping back to the head of the World we travel to the heads of Easter Island. The next region of the World has ancient pathways that form the constellation of Taurus. Taurus is the bull because of the massive strong neck but actually from this region of the World we find the mighty neck of the buffalo. Cancer joins to the region where Stonehenge sits and this is the ancient design of Cancer. The Merlion sits between the tail and Leo.

If I have managed to capture your interest for a moment I would like to now introduce you to a new theory that may connect to the ancient city of Atlantis. The Earth zodiac contains the zone of Aquarius. This is two zones West of Ester Island. First Pisces the feet fin fish sign and then the zone of Aquarius sitting in the middle of the massive pacific water region.

It is a suggestion and a possibility that this is a very logical position for the city of Atlantis. This zone of water could have been stamped with such an ancient monument as part of the complete ancient design.

This concept is part of many revolutionary discoveries that bind stories and knowledge around the globe together. Many articles are available and additional information can be sent or directed to websites if required. I would be happy to help if interested.

With kind regards Barry Sears
New Zealand

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Robyn Sullivan link
9/25/2018 02:05:36 am

Hi Jason,

a very entertaining read, thank you for your witticism and erudition, I thoroughly enjoyed this piece.

I had watched the NG doco just before reading it, and actually I'm glad I did, because I think that's the right order.

If I'd read yours first I probably wouldn't have watched it at all, but because I did watch the doco first, I received some strong impressions of my own that the whole exercise of sailing around in the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute boat was very unsystematic and unscientific, not how you go about investigating a theory.

A normal scholarly approach would be to first check out the geology and known history of the region, then find out what is already known of the archaeology, and then to objectively assess other theories for credibility.

What you don't do is hop randomly around the Mediterranean without a plan, conducting very expensive diving investigations of the seabed at random locations, and looking at sites unsystematically for five minutes each. I think those divers would have made a packet from the doco.

The worst feature of the drivel that passed for the commentary was undoubtedly Richard Freund. He came across as one of those flakey loudmouths with no ability to objectively or critically assess evidence. If I'd had any doubts about the arguments put forward by the programme, this chap's presence resolved them.

Thank you again for a well-written, entertaining piece, such critical thinking and assessment is pretty rare in mainstream media, so it's good to find it anywhere.

Kind regards
Robyn

Reply
Charles Verrastro link
11/29/2018 02:11:59 pm

Well, the latest "Atlantis en Espanol" theory rears its head once again.

https://www.livescience.com/64176-lost-city-atlantis-spain.html?utm_source=ls-newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20181128-ls

I have the original edition of Whishaw's Atlantis in Andalucia and marveled at the time how crude were the archaeological interpretations, particularly the emphasis on what was clearly a Gothic statue touted as an Atlantean artifact of a possibly Atlantean Princess, High Priestess or possibly Goddess figure.

Interesting in light of the present discussions of so-called "secret" maps and documents is their assertion
"The company's researchers chose to look for the site in Spain after reading Plato's two dialogues on Atlantis, Blackburn said. They also looked at another text, but Blackburn won't say which one. "We won't share that in a public forum at this stage," Blackburn said, adding, however, that he expects that the writing will be submitted for scrutiny "in the fullness of time."

Ah yes, the fabled promised revelation of a lost ancient record to be revealed in a time and place of "our" choosing (or not).

More to the point is their surprising honesty:
"Merlin Burrows and Ingenio Films have made a 2-hour documentary called "Atlantica" about the finding, and Blackburn said he expects the companies to make more documentaries.
"What we really want to do is we want to franchise the find," Blackburn said. "We want to make an awful lot of money out of it."

And by the way, as to one of the founding fathers of the modern Atlantis myth, Ignatius Donnelly. A fascinating figure he was nevertheless an autodidact with a penchant for conspiracies and historical mysteries. I also happen to have his personal copy of the publisher's galleys of his Anti-Shakespearean Authorship book The Great Cryptogram: Francis Bacon's Cipher in Shakespeare's Plays. It is scholarly enough for the period, but degenerates into cryptographical fantasy. The actual published text is fairly sane enough, but his penciled annotations wander off into Kabbalistic jugglery and ultimate lunacy.


Reply
Elizabeth
3/8/2019 11:05:18 pm

I was very confused by this documentary and actually fell asleep watching it.. I do not believe that Atlantis is allegory, but I do believe it was in fact based off of the Minoan civilization. Plato said at the very beginning of the Timaeus that the story was related originally by Solon, who in turn, got it from documents in Egypt. The team investigating Atlantis in the doc kept saying it was west of Greece, but if the story was passed down from Solon and did originate in Egypt could it be west of Egypt? Santorini is sort of northwest of Egypt. Regardless of whether there is ever any conclusive proof, the Minoan civilization was absolutely incredible and sophisticated even compared to much more recent lost civilizations. It's destruction was swift and felt throughout the Mediterranean. It was burried beneath the sea and silt ( and pyroclastic flow). If there was a real historical Atlantis, this is the most likely location.

Reply
Lyn
3/8/2019 11:10:57 pm

yes, those are my thoughts as well. At least until someone comes up with a better theory or solid proof - if that ever happens.

Reply
Robert K Stone
1/1/2020 08:53:19 pm

I was wondering if anyone has ever discovered if there is any connection with Minoan culture that worshipped the bull and Spain, or is that to far fetched?

Reply
Charles Verrastro link
9/6/2020 01:25:57 pm

I often saw this casually mentioned as a possibility in the speculative literature, much like the often made comparison of Pre-Columbian temple complexes and Egyptian pyramids. But the actual traditions and rituals of bullfighting seem to be fairly modern, and originally were spectacles not unlike bull and bear-baiting in other lands. Yet no one seriously thinks those popular amusements harken back to an unbroken tradition of worship/sacrifice of cave bears or aurochs. Anymore than decadent emperors like Commodus or Nero indulging in beheading ostriches or slaughtering giraffes in the arena (some scholars think it was actually the Emperor Claudius who introduced the custom to Spain).
The actual antecedents of classic Hispanic tauromachy are well sketched out here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfighting#History

Reply
MSR
4/2/2020 05:59:55 am

Is it not at least conceivable that Atlantis while perhaps not directly accurate describe an relatively advanced ancient civilisation or community destroyed by volcanic activity?

Plato may have used the story of Atlantis to convey a story of a cataclysmic event. The problem is people never accept that there is a huge grey area in this story.

Either Atlantis is real or it's just a myth, there is equally the option that Atlantis tells a story of an event that occurred that was documented by Plato but the events of Atlantis describe this rather than the civilisation in it's entirety.

Look at recent Tsunami's etc generated by volcanic activity, glacial collapses and earthquakes, this is itself indicates the disaster described is more than feasible.

Reply
Joe
4/2/2020 07:33:11 am

A prime example of what lies in the future when National Geographic was sold to Rupert Murdoch. Soon it will be like the History Channel, Discovery promoting fake science, fake newz.

Reply
Vincent
10/26/2020 12:49:18 am

Regardless of the issues of what’s fact or fiction, Georgeos, I respect you for the way you’ve handled the onslaught of some of these replies. I’ve been reading these comments most of my night, 10/26/2020. Jason C. and Frank also express themselves in a respectful manner. I know I’ll probably catch some flack for saying I “respect” some peoples expressive writings. It’s obvious to me that one can’t argue ones opinions or try and convince someone of their beliefs when others are so sure and committed to their own. Thank you all for the entertainment and information, great debating!! Agree to disagree.....

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