Atlantis Rising is a documentary for people who don’t like documentaries. Slick and superficial, it cheerfully glosses over facts and subsumes logic beneath the siren song of personality. It is less a search for Atlantis than a chronicle of the filmmakers’ own ego-trips as they indulge in the fantasy that they are uniquely touched by genius in the effort to find the one true meaning behind the legend of Atlantis that has somehow escaped the notice of thousands of previous investigators over thousands of years. It is the kind of documentary where the audience is an afterthought. If you were not familiar with Plato’s Atlantis before the show started, you won’t come out the other side any the wiser, but you will have learned many false facts and come away with the impression that a cast of lunatics, obsessives, and frauds are actually respected and careful scholars. In other words, Atlantis Rising is full of “alternative facts” spouted by dilettantes and poseurs pretending at wisdom. It is the perfect show for our time. Oh, and it also tells us that Judaism is really an Atlantean religion, born of the same wellspring as Classical civilization and the West itself. The search for Atlantis is, at its core, a search for a mystical justification for Western Civilization. Few who hunt for the lost continent will ever admit this, but the facts make it plain. Plato used Atlantis as an allegory for the fall of civilizations consumed by hubris in order to contrast its demise with the ideal Republic that was “ancient” Athens. In the 1500s and 1600s, the Spanish and Portuguese used Atlantis to try to bring the New World into the history of the Old and assign to it a Classical past worthy of Empire. In the eighteenth century, De Sales imagined the fall of Atlantis as precedent for the liberation of the French Revolution. In the nineteenth century, Ignatius Donnelly cast Atlantis as precedent and justification for Western imperialism, and in the 1990s Graham Hancock used it as an ancient analog for Western-led globalization. The harder one tries to justify the hunt for Atlantis, the more likely one is to see an attempt to connect the site of its alleged location to Western Civilization. It is no surprise, therefore, to find that the filmmakers behind National Geographic’s Atlantis Rising specifically imagined that they were looking for a moral lesson about the fate of Western Civilization by fantasizing that known Bronze Age cultures were actually the city and empire described by Plato in the Timaeus and the unfinished dialog Critias. As filmmaker James Cameron told The Vulture shortly before the show aired, America is gripped by fear that civilization is about to collapse, which makes the story of Atlantis relevant today: “And so there are rumbles of social collapse that aren’t far away in the imaginations of some people. I think there’s going to be fascination with some of these lessons from history.” Of course, Atlantis isn’t historical any more than The Walking Dead is a chronicle of a real medical epidemic. Cameron is right that there is a culture-wide unease about social collapse, brought on by globalization, multiculturalism, and other challenges to tradition and stability. But he is not right to transform myth and allegory into fake history to justify addressing these fears. The orange glow of the sunset of the West casts long shadows across Atlantis Rising, a fluffy, illogical, and disposable entry in the “hunt for Atlantis” subgenre. In substance, it is hardly different from Finding Atlantis, NatGeo’s 2011 documentary that also chronicled biblical archaeologist Richard Freund’s imaginative efforts to find Atlantis. In that program, Freund falsely identified Plato’s Atlantis with an archaeological site in Spain, known as Doñana, a claim that dismayed the actual archaeologists who worked on the site and who accused him of appropriating their work for a Biblical agenda. For, you see, Freund equally falsely identified Atlantis with the Biblical city of Tarshish in order to bring Plato into alignment with the Bible. As I reported at the time (slightly corrected): … let us grant him his point and pretend that Atlantis is Tarshish. If this is true, then we have a contradiction. Tarshish traded with the Israelites during the reign of Solomon, traditionally around the tenth century BCE. This is thousands of years after Plato’s Atlantis sunk beneath the waves (9600 BCE), and at least a thousand years off from the proposed dates when the Spanish site was destroyed (possibly around 2000 BCE). Never mind that the books of Chronicles and Kings were likely composed no earlier than 560 BCE, at which time Tarshish must still have been an active port—one still in operation when Jonah tried to sail there in the Book of Jonah (composed c. 500 BCE). So Tarshish and Atlantis, like Schrödinger’s cat, both exist and do not exist, are active and destroyed, simultaneously. The only way to make the two into one is to change Plato, and once you change Plato you are no longer looking for “Atlantis” but are instead naming whatever you find in honor of Plato’s fictional allegory. Freund said that we are justified in adjusting the facts in Plato to make them “more plausible.” This willingness to cherry-pick which parts of Plato’s account to believe is a hallmark of Atlantis fantasies, and it is what directly leads us to finding conspiracy theorist and filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici gushing over the idea that Plato’s Atlantis might be identical with the Bronze Age Nuragic civilization of Sardinia. This claim was made by De Sales in 1793, but it faces an insurmountable problem if we are to take Plato as our guide, even if we agree to discount the 8,000-year age difference between Plato’s Atlantis and Sardinia’s Nuragic ruins. Plato’s student was Aristotle, and one of his students (or his students’ students) in the Peripatetic School told us what the Greeks thought of the Bronze Age structures of Sardinia in the book On Marvelous Things Heard, chapter 100: In the island of Sardinia they say there are many beautiful buildings constructed in the ancient Greek style, and, amongst others, domes carved in remarkable proportions. It is said that these were built by lolaus, son of Iphicles, when he, having taken with him the Thespiadae, the sons of Heracles, sailed to those parts with the intention of settling there, considering that they belonged to him through his relationship with Heracles, because Heracles was lord, of all the western land. (trans. Launcelot D. Dowdall) The account also appears in Diodorus Siculus (Library 4.29-30, 5.15) and Pausanias (10.17). Aristotle must have known a similar story himself, as he alludes to the graves of the Heroes on Sardinia in Physics 218b21.
By what right can we trust Plato’s account but not that of the followers of Aristotle? Jacobovici and Freund say that it is because Plato was copying a copy of an Egyptian original, making it more trustworthy. But if that is the case, then whence came the Aristotelian version? If we concede that Aristotle’s school made things up, by what right do we say Plato did not, when we have documented cases where he created fictions (the allegory of the cave, the Republic), and no documentation of any Egyptian original for the tale of Atlantis? It’s clear that Jacobovici hasn’t thought much about these issues in his rush to latch on to some exciting proof or another that any given Bronze Age culture might have been the foundation of the story of Atlantis. The bottom line is always the same, however: to make any candidate fit, we must first change some fact or another about Plato, from the age of the island, to its method of destruction (news flash: Sardinia still exists and Doñana is not under water), to the identity of its mysterious metal of orichalcum, to its possession of elephants. By the time they are done, there is less connection between Plato’s Atlantis and the imagined original than between The Walking Dead and the nineteenth century Caribbean zombi that in a roundabout way inspired it. At least there one can trace the intermediate steps, which for Atlantis somehow fail to exist. Disclosure: The PR firm for National Geographic Channel offered me an interview with Freund and Jacobovici, but then pulled out without explanation shortly after I accepted. You can draw your own conclusions, but essentially they are cowards who don’t want to answer hard questions. The documentary, a pointlessly personal “quest” narrated bizarrely by Jacobovici in his sleepy and accented English and set up like a lost episode of a long-running series that none of us has seen, starts with James Cameron alleging that the “parable” and “myth” of Atlantis sits atop a historical truth, but one assembled from pieces of facts, like science fiction. He quickly teams up with Jacobovici, who believes in a literal Atlantis and who summarizes the Timaeus and the Critias with the help of unconvincing computer graphics that seem about ten years behind state of the Art. Cameron literally phones in the rest of his appearances in the documentary, lending his name, but not much else, and for what purpose? If you are not already familiar with these men and their ideas, and the history of the myth of Atlantis, I can’t imagine that any of this makes any senses at all. Who are these people? Why are they looking for Atlantis? They never say. Jacobovici and Cameron both strategically leave out Plato’s claim that Atlantis occupied a massive island beyond the Pillars of Hercules larger than Africa and Asia combined. Instead, they falsely allege that the civilization of Atlantis is merely a Mediterranean civilization that occupied lands from the Aegean to Gibraltar, including the Spanish mainland. This is decidedly not the same thing. Spain, just to note, is not an island. Jacobovici interviews Charles Pellegrino, a controversial author and creationist who was accused of fabricating parts of one of his books, as well as of falsely claiming to hold a Ph.D. (He falsely claimed that the university stripped his Ph.D. because of his creationist beliefs; in reality he failed to meet academic standards in his dissertation.) He is Cameron’s favorite expert on the history of Atlantis. Left unsaid: Pellegrino, in addition to his documented falsehoods, is also friends with Jacobovici, and the two wrote a book about the “Jesus Family Tomb” together. Both men are also friends with Scott Wolter, and the three men work together on Jesus Holy Bloodline conspiracy theories. Pellegrino is writing a book with Wolter about it, or at least Wolter claimed as much, and Jacobovici similarly promotes the same conspiracy theory about the marriage and children of Jesus in his widely debunked documentary based on the book he wrote with Pellegrino. Disclosure and ethics are not a strong suit with this set, and it’s no wonder Jacobovici didn’t want me to talk to him. The first segment of the documentary explores the destruction of Thera (Santorini) and looks at the claims, dating back to K. T. Frost in 1909 and Louis Figuier in 1872 that the Minoans of Santorini were the “real” people of Atlantis. This is a familiar, and boring, allegation, and nothing has been added to it since Frost’s academic version of the argument in his 1913 journal article following up on his 1909 proposal. Pelligrino says that the claim is 99% certain, but Jacobovici and Cameron aren’t so sure. A second claim alleges that Malta was Atlantis. This is also an old claim, one going back to the early 1800s, when Maltese hoaxers created fake artifacts and a fake ancient text by Eumalos of Cyrene to “prove” that Malta was indeed part of the lost continent. You’ll probably remember the claim from Meet Me in Atlantis and its appearance on In Search of Aliens. Jacobovici isn’t much interested in Malta, so he travels to Gibraltar to meet up with Freund to search for Atlantis there, and Jacobovici uses the beats of reality TV to provide pointless teasers—“Oh my God, look at this!”—to punctuate commercial breaks. This is a documentary for people who find America Unearthed too sophisticated. Freund is excitable, his voice squeaking and cracking as he screams that Plato’s city of Atlantis is drowned near Gibraltar, and as will come out later, he is looking for evidence that the site he identified in 2011 is not just Atlantis but extended its power into the Atlantic Ocean. The site, which dates back, Jacobivici said, to 6000 BCE, is somehow also the “exact” time of Atlantis—9600 BCE—in Freund’s mind. We rehearse Freund’s belief that the Biblical Tarshish was actually Atlantis, though as I noted above, this is chronologically impossible. Jacobovici cuts Freund loose for now and follows another claim that the Pillars of Hercules were once at the Straits of Messina. This will help him to move Atlantis to Sardinia, on the other side of the Straits of Messina. Even though he will adopt this claim to “prove” Sardinia’s connection to Atlantis, he will also abandon it at will without abandoning the connection of Sardinia to Atlantis, a logical problem. He meets with Robert Ishoy – you will remember him from his goofball exploration society, the Society for Historical Exploration – and Jacobovici treats the amateur explorer as though he were an expert in ancient history and archaeology. In fact, he never actually tells us anything about Ishoy, letting the music and the dramatic camerawork lend him an air of fake authority. Nat Geo should be ashamed of itself for letting a conspiracy theorist pass off a bunch off frauds as real and respected researchers. No one bothers to note that De Sales made claims like these back in 1793, and that Sardinia has been associated with Atlantis, Bible giants, and other fantastical claims ever since. For that matter, Jacobovici lets Ishoy, an American dilettante—his claim to fame is that he posted a college essay on Atlantis to the internet in 2001—serve as his proxy in Sardinia when Italian journalist Sergio Frau has been doggedly pursuing the claim that Sardinia is Atlantis for decades. Since the Italian government and the U.N. patronized him, one would think that would earn him some screen time. I guess they had already met their quota for non-English-speakers. Jacobovici claims that Nuragic architecture matches that of Plato’s description of the houses of Atlantis. He doesn’t quote it because he’s making things up. There are no descriptions of the architecture of the houses (I assume he refers to the palaces Plato mentions as surrounding the temple of Poseidon), and only one of a temple, which doesn’t match the round towers of Nuragic style. Just to be clear, Plato says of the temple that it “was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance. All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, curiously wrought everywhere with gold and silver and orichalcum; and all the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor, they coated with orichalcum.” No Nuragic temple in Sardinia bears any resemblance to that. He claims that a temple in the center of Sardinia belongs to a water deity, though there isn’t a way to know that since the Nuragic people left no writing. We know nothing of their Bronze Age gods. Although Jacobovici is convinced, Cameron is not, so he travels to southern Spain for another view. He interviews yet another looney tune, Georgeos Diaz Montexano (a.k.a. Cuban researcher Jorge Diaz Sanchez), who has been accused of making misleading (though not false) claims about his academic credentials. (He holds no relevant degree.) Notice a trend yet? He alleges that southern Spain was where the Atlanteans settled after the fall of their citadel. He also claims that practically any stone carving of a circle or concentric circles must be an aerial map of Atlantis and its rings. It’s a stretch at best, based on a fanciful interpretation of petroglyphs, an ignorance of local cultures, and a lot of wishful thinking. He provides the same evidence that Freund did in 2011—that a picture of a stick man holding a sword and standing next to a series of concentric circles is a “bible of the Atlanteans.” To show you how silly this all is, Montexano takes Jacobovici to a Copper Age city in southern Spain that was composed of a series of round walls (not unlike, say, Troy), with a moat external to it. This city, which is decidedly not 11,600 years old, is somehow nevertheless coeval with Atlantis “at its height” for our hero because Jacobovici has no methodology whatsoever and happily does whatever he wants with Plato to make things fit. Why do we get to chuck out the dates Plato gave? Just because. (Montexano, in his books, claims Plato’s number has been mistranslated and should refer to 1500 BCE.) Why do we get to throw out the elephants? Why not? Why do we get to forget about the temples covered in precious metals? It’s Sunday. The second hour of the documentary returns to Freund’s efforts around Gibraltar for some expensive underwater photography, and it pairs this effort with Montexano’s efforts to interpret petroglyphs of boats, spirals, and circles into evidence of Atlantis. At one point, the film crew goes into an Iberian cave to use spectral analysis in order to determine whether a petroglyph of a boat could be an image of an Atlantean warship. With the cave’s entrance covered over, and the whole crew sitting with their backs turned to the entrance, staring at flickering lights and shadows on the cave wall, it never crosses the minds of any of the people present that they are enacting Plato’s Allegory of the Cave. They are reading into shadows on the wall what they want to imagine the real world to be like. Needless to say, there is no reason to suspect that such common motifs as boats, circles, and spirals have anything to do with Atlantis. Jacobovici assumes that images of boats and a horse (or so he says) near a square proves that the images record the flight of Atlanteans from their sinking harbor city. “They were recounting stories of events that were occurring somewhere along the coast, far away from here.” There is no reason to impose that story on the images, which can’t even be shown to be connected to one another as a coherent narrative. Montexano adds another layer of absurdity when he presents what Jacobovici calls an “ancient Egyptian map,” but which is no such thing. It’s a Byzantine-era map based on Claudius Ptolemy’s geographic coordinates. Ptolemy’s original map does not survive, nor any direct ancient copy of it. The exact source of the Greek language map Montexano uses is not given, except to say it is in the British Museum. Freund, Jacobovici, and Montexano all are thrilled that Tartessos, which they conflate with the Biblical Tarshish, appears on the Greek map exactly where ancient Greek geographers said it would be. This is only exciting if you think Tarshish = Tartessos = Atlantis, a claim that logic does not allow us to accept. Certainly the Greeks (e.g. Strabo 3.2.11; Pausanias 6.19.3) never thought Tartessos was Atlantis. Old underwater footage from 1993 shows broken stones that Jacobovici think look like Sardinian round towers, but everyone involved jumps to the conclusion that it is an underwater city before considering any geological explanations for collections of stones on the seafloor. New underwater footage uncovers round stone discs, which the team liken to Greek column drums, even though such a style of construction was not used at the time period in question. No one stops to ask why Atlanteans would be building with Greek styles not invented for millennia. Given how long the area has been occupied, settled, and sailed, the presence of anchors, ballast stones, etc. is of no surprise. A dive to the supposed site of what Jacobovici calls “megalithic ruins” shows what at first glance appear to be perfectly natural geological formations that the team of motivated reasoners are intent in interpreting as a lost city. “Your imagination kind of starts to help a little bit,” one team member says. “It’s easy to start to imagine things.” The team’s marine archaeologist can’t determine if the rocks are natural or artificial. In the final half hour, Jacobovici proposes that Spain was Atlantis, and Sardinia is its colony. To prove this, he relies on Montexano to lead him to a round Spanish structure from around 2500 BCE, which Jacobovici claims has “many features” of Sardinian architecture, by which he means that it is more or less round and has interlocking chambers. “You can’t say this is a metaphor,” Jacobivici gushes. “This is Atlantean architecture as described by Plato!” Notice how he has redefined Plato—the temple is taken now to be identical with the whole city of Atlantis, and all of the details he doesn’t like, such as the ivory roof and the metal-plated walls, are thrown aside. Jacobovici and Montexano, both standing in Spain, see a petroglyph composed of three upside-down arcs with a line drawn perpendicularly through them and declare it a Jewish menorah! The two men agree that Jewish menorahs are actually “an evolution of the Atlantean symbol of concentric circles,” a claim that lacks any factual foundation since Atlantis was, so far as we know, never symbolized as concentric rings. That was abstracted from Plato’s description of the city’s canals. Nevertheless, the two men conclude that the Bible reflects “Atlantean theology.” Stop and consider that for a moment: A group of religious conspiracy theorists who already think Jesus is part of a secret conspiracy of ancient bloodlines now argue that Atlantis is the secret source of Judaism! I would have been more impressed if anyone on this show reflected for a moment on the fact that Plato modeled the fall of Atlantis in the Critias on the same anger of the gods that led to Noah’s Flood in the Bible, both stories deriving from the Near East Flood Myth. It looks like Ignatius Donnelly’s identification of the Nephilim with the Atlanteans (not to mention their identification with ancient Sardinians!) is still part of the Atlantis discussion today. The team finds some Bronze Age stone anchors, and Jacobivici declares that it “fits the Atlantis timeline.” It does not. Only by throwing out Plato’s facts can we make that work, shaving 7,000 years off of the age of Atlantis, and assuming, again without evidence, that the Bronze Age destruction of the site at Doñana is (a) Tartessos and therefore (b) Atlantis. The logic does not hold. The anchors, needless to say, only prove that the residents of mainland Iberia took their ships out from Spain in the Bronze Age. In a tossed off comment, Jacobovici admits that other people have found such anchors before. He then alleges, without evidence, that there “must be thousands” of such anchors in the area because Plato said Atlantis was a big port. He also said it had elephants, but we haven’t seen any of those yet. In the last minutes of the show, Jacobovici asks us to accept all of the preceding speculation, and he asks us to believe that the Bronze Age residents of Spain sailed to the Azores. The evidence for settlement before the Portuguese discovery of the Azores is ambiguous, and there is no proof that any pre-Portuguese structures, should they be proved to be from before European colonization, date back to the Bronze Age. Jacobovici sees a bunch of what look like natural rock formations, and we are told that they are actually the remains of a temple and village, complete with a “holy of holies”! Some gouges in the rocks are said to be identical to Maltese cart tracks, but no evidence is given to date them to 3000 BCE. Jacobovici concludes that Bronze Age cultures from Spain to Sardinia were all connected together through political, social, and economic ties, which makes the Bronze Age “civilization” of the Western Mediterranean the “real” Atlantis. He alleges that the Bronze Age cultures were destroyed by natural disasters caused by the eruption of the Santorini volcano on the other side of the Mediterranean around 1600 BCE, even though that eruption failed to fell even the Minoans, right next door. They soldiered on for another couple of hundred years, and even longer after that under the control of the Mycenaeans. For that matter, the Sardinian Nuragic civilization was unaffected by the Santorini eruption--as this very show said in the first hour—and continued on down to historic times. Even the people of the site of Doñana were still there down to 1250 BCE, according to some estimates of the site’s age. Atlantis, though, was apparently too fragile, and its people gave up the ghost as soon as they heard that a volcano had gone off on the other end of the world. It makes you wonder how they managed to get themselves to the Levant to be remembered as the mighty Nephilim and the Giants, the men of renown whose prowess offended even the gods. So, to recap: Jacobovici threw out all of the parts of Plato he didn’t like and then identified Atlantis as the civilizations of the Bronze Age. This lets him identify the Bronze Age collapse as the “real” Atlantis, and perversely allows him to remove the source of Judaism from the milieu of Near East cultures that eventually gave rise to the Arabs and place it firmly in the hands of an imaginary Western culture free from the contamination of Babylon and all things Arab. His own Jewish faith is now firmly Western, separate, and linked indivisibly from the wellspring of the Western experience, here removed from Greece and placed into the wonder-world of the lost Atlantis.
82 Comments
Only Me
1/30/2017 11:44:18 am
Forgot this show was airing yesterday. Now, I'm glad I missed it.
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Pyongyang
9/5/2020 12:21:34 pm
The only thing that bothered me was his kippah...
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Clete
1/30/2017 12:04:33 pm
Watched the last forty-five minutes or so of this mess. In looking at the "stone anchors", it seemed to me that the holes did not go all the way through the rock. I might be mistaken, but the footage was unclear. It would seem that in order to have a workable anchor one would need a way to attach a line to it. Also, the rock didn't seem any different from the rest of the rock in the same location resting on the seabed. Wouldn't the rock be different? After all it was on a ship sailing from somewhere else.
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David Bradbury
1/30/2017 02:10:20 pm
Stones with artificial holes that don't go all the way through? I'm sure I've seen something else about such stoneholes very recently, somewhere or other ...
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mhe
1/30/2017 05:38:56 pm
Ha! Or is it evidence for the Chinese being in the area 3000 years ago as claimed on America Unearthed for the stone anchors found off of the coast of California.
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Tom
1/30/2017 12:07:55 pm
I am lost, are these people seeking the "island" of Atlantis or the City of Atlantis?
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Graham
1/30/2017 08:47:08 pm
That's how the fringe works, as long as what is said is 'against the lame-stream' it is correct, even if it does not make sense or flatly contradicts what was said by the last talking head.
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Crash55
1/30/2017 01:11:43 pm
How can one search for Atlantis and never quote Plato? Aside from showing a couple book covers there was nothing taken from Plato.
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Crash55
1/30/2017 01:17:30 pm
How can one search for Atlantis and never quote Plato? Aside from showing a couple book covers there was nothing taken from Plato.
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Thank you Jason for pointing out how bad this "docu" really was. You know, I, too, search for Atlantis in the bronze age, but this ideology stuff (bloodlines, Jews from Atlantis, etc.) is really terrible. I am once again glad to have spent some money on your blog.
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Frank
2/1/2017 01:56:14 pm
Come on Thornwald, don't be so critical of others' nonsense, when you yourself are also coming up with a lot stuff yourself. You are a cherry-picker too, when it comes to your own Atlantis. Besides, our Jason here, the "voice of reason," can be just as critical and debunk anything that you have, so far, come up with on an Atlantis hypotheses of your own. Jason does not believe in a real Atlantis. But then, Jason is too "smart" for his own good. Not to mention his high and mighty arrogance, and his self-assessed high level of intellectual and logical prowess. For certain he is eloquent in the eyes of his followers, and worth the money for subscribing to his blog, as you have. Surely he is a force to reckon with, a force much more aggressive than the formidable and overwhelmingly superior hoard of invading Atlanteans. What an extraordinary feat; to have put NG on notice and on their knees, to the point of having them backing down, do to fearing Jason's expected, logical, cross-examination of those "idiots" responsible for such nonsense of a documentary. But on this point, that the documentary was a nonsensical misinterpretation of a Plato, as they succeeded in contorting our famous philosopher's words to the point of not being able to recognize hardly a word of what he wrote, I totally agree with Jason on it, if that matters much, as I just another ignoramus, since I believe in a "real" Atlantis. But my Atlantis is one of a total different class in my head; just like Pinocchio's land of toys, where "real" children like Jason go to, and are then turned into animals. Much like Jason is now an animal of sort, as he will not turn the other cheek, but he will keep slapping those that do. But then again, Jason does not believe in God also. Do you, Jason? He can, sarcastically, reference Plato's cave allegory with a scene of the documentary, but does he really understand Plato? Does he not understand that Plato was telling us that we all are living in the world of shadows? Jason, is just another shadow of the real world, the world that he cannot see, nor even imagine, because his dumb-ass soul drank too much water of forgetfulness, before he incarnated in this earthly, arrogant, shadow of a body of his.
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Elizabeth Stuart
2/21/2017 03:15:27 am
Wow Frank, someone puts forth a better argument than you and all of a sudden you resort to name calling?! You may call Jason all the names you want but it will not take away the truth. Plato's story was merely an allegory. It never happened. It is not a true story. Wake up sheep! Wake up from your fantasy land! All you pesudos sound like a bunch of lunenatics of your meds.
Titus pullo
1/30/2017 09:00:34 pm
Judiasm and Atlantis. Well at least that explains the treatment of the Palistinians in the west bank according to some. Inferior races cant be allowed self determination.
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Killbuck
1/30/2017 09:36:25 pm
That was.... really.... really... bad.
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Diogenes
1/31/2017 03:02:31 am
Excellent, in-depth review of American television documentaries today. Should be read by all interested in ancient history.
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Thegrim
1/31/2017 05:04:48 pm
Its a horrble documentary
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1/31/2017 03:38:51 am
With all my regards...
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1/31/2017 03:40:22 am
For only a few seconds where you can appreciate only a small part of the engravings of the rock in Campanario, Badajoz, can not be judged, neither for nor against. In the complete drawing, made with precision by official and titled archaeologists, at least six ships are clearly visible, and some of them have rows of oars, rudder, and protomes in the form of a duck's head or a horse's head. I invite you to know the facts in their entirety, before making judgments that could be wrong based on partial or incomplete data.
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1/31/2017 03:41:34 am
The fact is that a combination like this, only exists (for now), in the Southwest of Iberia, very close to the coasts of the Atlantic side of the Columns of Hercules, just where the beginning of the island Atlantis.
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1/31/2017 06:40:55 am
Thank you for taking the time to post this, Georgeos. If you are telling me that I am wrong to criticize a documentary you claim to have advised because it is not deep or detailed enough, it sounds like your problem is really with Simcha Jacobovici for making a bad show. That's not on me.
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Al macias
1/31/2017 05:05:51 pm
You insult the ancient Celt-Iberian culture with your nonsense theory.
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Robyn Sullivan
9/25/2018 02:29:33 am
Hi Georgios,
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1/31/2017 04:04:16 am
Correct chronology of Atlantis
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Only Me
1/31/2017 08:40:00 am
"Correct Chronology of Atlantis"
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DaveR
1/31/2017 10:36:30 am
"...I have never been a fanatical believer in Atlantis, nor do I claim that Atlantis -like described in Plato- has existed."
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1/31/2017 12:01:18 pm
His deduction, on what I have argued before, is a typical 'non sequitur' fallacy. If you read well my words and explanations, you will understand that I do not believe there has been such a marvelous Atlantis of great metal-walled walls, or sumptuous palaces or temples covered with ivory, gold, and oricalco. And I support Plutarch, and explain it before, who after making his own inquiries in Egyptian archives where he got even the names of the two priests who told the story to Solon, Sonkhis de Sais and Psenophis of Heliopolis, considered the greatest Sages of those times, Plutarch asserts that Plato adorned or embellished with sumptuous palaces and great walls, the history or legend that these priests had told Solon. So, I have a historical basis. An information from a historian, Plutarch, that allows me not to believe that there really was an Atlantis just as marvelous in architecture. 1/31/2017 10:43:39 am
1. It is clear that you have not taken the trouble to read the article. He offered the prejudiced answer they already had in his mind. When I speak of the correct chronology of Atlantis, it is clear that I am referring to the correct chronology of Atlantis, according to the account of Plato in his dialogues Timeo and Critias. I am not talking about the correct chronology of a culture or civilization already discovered and scientifically studied. Is it so difficult to understand something so simple?
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1/31/2017 11:22:49 am
You say you put more effort into Atlantis than Plato himself did, and yet several points stand out: In the Critias, we read that the war between Atlantis and Athens occurred in 9570 BCE. This contradicts your analysis.
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Tom
1/31/2017 01:41:27 pm
With respect the literary sources are irrelevant in proving the existence of Atlantis the evidence from geological surveys have already demonstrated there have been no large scale disruptions to the Iberian continental shelf or the ocean bed in recent geological history that could possibly account for the disappearance of such an island (capable of supporting a large fleet and population) beneath the sea.
Only Me
1/31/2017 12:02:02 pm
You are correct. I did not trouble myself with reading your nonsense.
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1/31/2017 01:21:20 pm
Thanks, ONLY ME, for this very intelligent and wise answer.
Only Me
1/31/2017 01:35:20 pm
You're welcome, Georgeos. I'm always happy to show someone that it is possible to provide an answer that isn't fallacious or dishonest.
Frank
2/2/2017 10:54:10 am
Only Me,
Only Me
2/2/2017 11:42:52 am
Skimmed through your comment, Frank, as it became obvious that was a lot of words to say absolutely nothing substantial.
E Pluribus Unum
12/27/2020 04:06:56 pm
For anyone saying Georgeos claims to believe and not believe in Atlantis: he claims he’s not a ‘fanatical’ believer...
V
2/1/2017 02:09:13 am
Maybe you'd like to argue that Prince Genji was an actual historical figure next, instead of the self-acknowledged creation of Lady Murasaki. Or that Narnia can truly be reached through a convenient wardrobe, painting, or hole in the wall. Perhaps that Hogwarts actually floats around, unmapped, in Scotland or Northern England.
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Frank
2/4/2017 01:21:17 pm
V,
Atilano
7/28/2017 05:36:17 pm
El que derriva de Baal
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Bob Jase
1/31/2017 12:12:11 pm
Atlantis - the most magical land of all because it existed everywhere and everytime depending on what you want it to be as long as you're willing to ignore the lack of evidence.
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I feel obliged to contradict Jason's thesis that all Atlantis search melts down to the attempt to find a mythical foundation for Western civilization or imperialism or racism or something like that. This is an obvious exaggeration, although there's a grain of truth in it.
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1/31/2017 01:53:46 pm
Let's just be clear that looking to Atlantis as the source of Western Civilization isn't inherently evil, racist, imperialist, etc. The examples you cited also attempt to use Atlantis as a source for the West, but do so for more humane purposes. Even some imperialists thought that they were being humane to declare various cultures fellow descendants of Atlantis. But, historically, people outside of Western Civilization haven't cared much for Atlantis, because the myth doesn't speak to them and their experiences. It is a Western legend, inseparable from the civilization that spawned it.
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Plato's Atlantis is not a "Western" story but a Greek story, maybe with a weak or strong core of Egyptian historical tradition. Greece in the ancient times was not the "West", but simply Greece and Greece alone. The civilizations which followed on the Greco-Roman empires are all not (!) Greek but Germanic or Arabic etc.
Oliver Smith
2/5/2017 11:50:40 pm
"Let me add the most simple evil motivation of all on which Jason should recur more often: Simple greed for money."
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Tristan
1/31/2017 03:15:25 pm
I was a little disappointed in the audio mixing and narration, it seemed to have been rushed or not polished. The background music was a little too loud while the host was narrating in an odd tone. I wonder if they cut this down from a mini-series or season long project, the amount of travel and locations compares to a half of a season of Hunting Aliens or an America Unearthed type of show.
Reply
1/31/2017 03:26:02 pm
I'm sorry, Mr. Colavito, but it's not like you think. I see you have not read my article (you probably do not want to). If I had read it, I would have been able to check every one of the points I believe based on what is actually said in Plato's texts, even in Greek texts. There is only one passage, in Critias 108, which is contradictory to all other clear references that the date of 9000 is the date of the beginning of the story, not of the end.
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Bob Jase
1/31/2017 03:44:49 pm
" 9000 years had passed since the origin of the original Athens and the origin of Atlantis itself "
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Thegrim
1/31/2017 03:51:03 pm
I am proud of my Spanish ancestry. But I know that the petroglyphs shown are from celt-iberian culture. Not this stupid atlantis that is a fiction of plato.
Reply
1/31/2017 04:44:30 pm
Mr Colavito: As for Crantor, you are confused. Crantor reported that the priests preserved stelae with inscriptions where the same war of the Atlantiques against the Athenians was narrated. It is not said in the quotation of Proclus "that he was told or told that such stelae existed." Crantor offers firsthand testimony, and there is no reasonable or justifiable reason to doubt his intellectual honesty.
Reply
1/31/2017 04:57:19 pm
That you say that the opinion of a historian as important as Plutarch has no weight when he spent some time in Egypt and tried first hand with priests and their fountains and when he offers us even the names of the two priests who narrated The story to Solon (as I have explained before), and tells us that Plato embellished or adorned the original story that was in the mere exhordio of Solon, with sumptuous buildings and great walls. If you say that every stock was held by Plutarch, it does not deserve any value, because then, for my part, there is nothing more to debate. It is clear to me what his category is as a skeptic, and that it will be completely useless for me to make an effort to argue or prove anything.
Reply
1/31/2017 07:22:12 pm
I examined the passages on Aristotle long ago, and I know well that it is an interpretation based on unrelated sections reported in Strabo. But you are happy to offer interpretations when they fit your agenda and reject them when they don't. Case in point: You spill much ink over Crantor, yet you omit that the plain reading is that the Egyptian priests told Crantor what the pillars allegedly said, not that he read them himself. For the benefit of our readers, I will give the lines, which you translate somewhat irregularly (seemingly by taking words in order rather than by grammatical function), in English: "Crantor adds, that this is testified by the prophets [i.e., priests] of the Egyptians, who assert that these particulars [which are narrated by Plato] are written on pillars which are still preserved” (trans. Thomas Taylor). When you say no one doubts Crantor, you seem unaware of the critical analyses in English:
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Frank
2/2/2017 12:05:37 pm
Gentlemen,
Bruce
2/1/2017 09:42:29 am
Its starting to sound like the standard mish mash of the Pillars of Boaz and Jachin combined w/ the later musings of Sir Francis Bacon's view of the New Atlantis. A bedtime story turned into a legend that reveals all the unexplained aspects of history......LOL.
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Oliver Smith
2/5/2017 09:55:55 pm
There's no evidence Solon went to Egypt. Notice how virtually every Atlantis proponent just accepts Solon travelled there without even examining the sources.
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2/6/2017 09:41:08 am
Yes, of course, there probably were not existed Herodotus, Plutarch, Plato, and Aristotle himself (authors who never doubted the existence of Solon, among many others).
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Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 05:23:18 pm
Except we have a reference to a passage from Herodotus' Histories as early as 414 BCE. Its found in Aristophanes Birds who is mocking Herodotus. To quote classicist Alan B. Lloyd (source above): "There is undoubted parody of the Histories in Aristophanes' Birds produced in 414". Regardless, Herodotus' date is firmly established from internal evidences, his The Histories constructs an inferred audience of the 430s/420s and he acknowledged he was still writing during the Peloponnesian War. The c. 440 BCE date is just an approximate estimate when he began writing, but he continued his The Histories for over a decade. More internal evidences establish a terminus post quem and terminus ante quem for Herodotus. For example he is known to have written The Histories in New Ionic Greek. That dates him between 600 and 300 BCE since as an "official" dialect, New Ionic Greek was defunct by 300 BCE. These estimates can be narrowed down with more internal evidence. And as I noted we know Herodotus work was already known to satirists at the end of the 5th century BCE. 2/6/2017 06:07:10 pm
About if Solon was be present in Egypt, or no, I say the same: for me, the criterion of any historian, philosopher or ancient geographer (even if he wrote 100, 200 or 300 years later) will be much more reliable and credible than the mere speculation of all university professors and university doctors of the Modern Times Modern, because if we apply that same ridiculous fallacy of temporal distance, then modern authors are not reliable, because they are speculating more than 2000 years later.
Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 09:07:27 pm
Ok. Thanks for proving you don't understand source criticism/historical method.
Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 12:04:57 am
"by Georgeos Díaz-Montexano, Writer, Expert in ancient languages and writing of lost civilizations, Accepted Member of The Epigraphic Society, President Emeritus of the Scientific Atlantology International Society (SAIS), Historical-Scientific Atlantology Adviser for National Geographic Channel and for James Francis Cameron & Simcha Jacobovici Producers."
Reply
2/6/2017 09:14:00 am
Is it so difficult to verify or inform one first before launching defamation about someone?
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Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 05:51:58 pm
Dude, stop with the nonsense. You don't even have a degree (at least not one in a relevant field to Plato) and you've been criticized all over the web for misleading people about your credentials. You're a crank. And everything you've posted here is pseudo-history. 2/6/2017 06:14:54 pm
Thank you Mr. Smith, for presenting such clever and ethical arguments. I congratulate to you on such wisdom and for that great sense of decorum and knowing how to debate with true scientific-historical rigor, and without appeal to any kind of abusive fallacy.
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Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 06:46:32 pm
@ Georgeos
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Oliver Smith
2/6/2017 06:24:28 pm
I cannot find anything about Miguel Galindo del Pozo or Doctor Antonio Morillas Esteban. However, a search-engine result shows César Guarde-Paz holds a PhD in Chinese Philosophy. Why not Western? Can you find someone with a PhD in Western Philosophy who believes Atlantis is real? They don't seem to exist.
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Oliver Smith
2/7/2017 12:18:12 am
Basically a log about Georgeos' dubious credentials/affiliations:
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Frank
2/8/2017 01:33:54 pm
Oliver, you say this; "I will be posting a copy of this in the Atlantis Rising Forum!" I peruse some similar sites, and also Atlantis Rising, and read what those that post there have to say on Atlantis, and I have noted that someone with the user name of "Oliver" is one of those posting. Would you be that particular Oliver posting there? Or if not, do you post on any of those Atlantis subject sites?
Reply
2/7/2017 11:49:17 am
Atlantis... historical fiction by Plato, ~1% real oral history.
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Frank
2/8/2017 12:51:19 pm
Triple D, forget about Jason and Oliver, as you already have your own comments to rate the probability of your hypothesis as being plausible for your speculative location of a Crimean Atlantis. It's a 1% real possibility, and 99% pure "bullshit" and historical fiction coming from your own wild imagination. I say it's a new Russian propaganda, since they have now, with Trump's approval, incorporated it into Russia, and are seeking a new wave of tourism, to recoup their war expenses. And that is why they want James Cameron and Simcha Jacobovici to promote it, by enticing them to go there and dig up all that fabulous Atlantean wealth. Who knows, they may even find that ancient mine with all that great amount of orichalcum too. Then you could be the "expert" on site, like Georgeos was for the last NG documentary.
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Gary
7/5/2017 11:52:48 am
Well put Jason just watched this very poor on solid facts docufantasy and got 30 minutes in before turning off.
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Shane ONeal
3/5/2018 11:23:28 pm
Just caught the last part of the documentary, then googled and found this blog.
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Joseph
3/6/2018 01:30:11 am
Excellent review of what happens when self proclaimed 'experts' with no academic/ archaeological training make a mockumentary. We see this rather frequently here in Israel where biblical 'scholars' pass themselves off as archaeologists and American universities, concerned more with how many times one appears on TV than peer review publications, enable this. As Professor Y. Bauer recently said 'they take legends, myths and make them into facts'.
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9/24/2018 12:21:50 am
ah HA! And you're all wrong. The continent of Zealandia was Atlantis (at least most of it is sunken) it has strange creatures (although no elephants but we can forget them) and therefore All New Zealanders are the inheritors of Atlantis. (Well, that's as good a theory as that documentary, isn't it.)
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9/24/2018 07:46:50 am
I over the past 25 years have been researching a basic design and the meaning of the ancient zodiac. The revolutionary discovery is that the concept of "as above so below" connects each of the zodiac signs to twelve zones around the equator of Earth. To read the energies of our surrounding Celestial zodiac it is defined that we should study the World itself. It has become obvious that each of the twelve zones around the equator of Earth contain ancient monuments that correlate to the twelve Celestial zodiac signs. These signs now appear to be Earthly observations, animals and anatomical variations from our World and then projected to the Heavenly band in the sky.
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9/25/2018 02:05:36 am
Hi Jason,
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11/29/2018 02:11:59 pm
Well, the latest "Atlantis en Espanol" theory rears its head once again.
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Elizabeth
3/8/2019 11:05:18 pm
I was very confused by this documentary and actually fell asleep watching it.. I do not believe that Atlantis is allegory, but I do believe it was in fact based off of the Minoan civilization. Plato said at the very beginning of the Timaeus that the story was related originally by Solon, who in turn, got it from documents in Egypt. The team investigating Atlantis in the doc kept saying it was west of Greece, but if the story was passed down from Solon and did originate in Egypt could it be west of Egypt? Santorini is sort of northwest of Egypt. Regardless of whether there is ever any conclusive proof, the Minoan civilization was absolutely incredible and sophisticated even compared to much more recent lost civilizations. It's destruction was swift and felt throughout the Mediterranean. It was burried beneath the sea and silt ( and pyroclastic flow). If there was a real historical Atlantis, this is the most likely location.
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Lyn
3/8/2019 11:10:57 pm
yes, those are my thoughts as well. At least until someone comes up with a better theory or solid proof - if that ever happens.
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Robert K Stone
1/1/2020 08:53:19 pm
I was wondering if anyone has ever discovered if there is any connection with Minoan culture that worshipped the bull and Spain, or is that to far fetched?
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9/6/2020 01:25:57 pm
I often saw this casually mentioned as a possibility in the speculative literature, much like the often made comparison of Pre-Columbian temple complexes and Egyptian pyramids. But the actual traditions and rituals of bullfighting seem to be fairly modern, and originally were spectacles not unlike bull and bear-baiting in other lands. Yet no one seriously thinks those popular amusements harken back to an unbroken tradition of worship/sacrifice of cave bears or aurochs. Anymore than decadent emperors like Commodus or Nero indulging in beheading ostriches or slaughtering giraffes in the arena (some scholars think it was actually the Emperor Claudius who introduced the custom to Spain).
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MSR
4/2/2020 05:59:55 am
Is it not at least conceivable that Atlantis while perhaps not directly accurate describe an relatively advanced ancient civilisation or community destroyed by volcanic activity?
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Joe
4/2/2020 07:33:11 am
A prime example of what lies in the future when National Geographic was sold to Rupert Murdoch. Soon it will be like the History Channel, Discovery promoting fake science, fake newz.
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Vincent
10/26/2020 12:49:18 am
Regardless of the issues of what’s fact or fiction, Georgeos, I respect you for the way you’ve handled the onslaught of some of these replies. I’ve been reading these comments most of my night, 10/26/2020. Jason C. and Frank also express themselves in a respectful manner. I know I’ll probably catch some flack for saying I “respect” some peoples expressive writings. It’s obvious to me that one can’t argue ones opinions or try and convince someone of their beliefs when others are so sure and committed to their own. Thank you all for the entertainment and information, great debating!! Agree to disagree.....
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