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News Roundup: Paleoindian DNA, Noah's Movie, and More

2/13/2014

65 Comments

 
Picture
With the massive snowstorm barreling down on the East Coast, I’m spending today shoveling, hunkering down, and trying to stay out of the snow. This morning I almost got t-boned by car sliding straight through an intersection, and conditions are only getting worse.

Today I have a grab bag of a few newsworthy items to share.

More Proof the Paleoindians Came from Asia
First, as many of you already know a new study published today in Nature provides yet more evidence confirming that the earliest people to reach the Americas came from Asia, not from Europe. The research by Morten Rasmussen et al. analyzed the genome of human bones from an infant found in conjunction with Clovis artifacts in western Montana, as a site called Anzick, and date back to approximately 10,600 BCE. According to the abstract:
We sequenced the genome to an average depth of 14.4× and show that the gene flow from the Siberian Upper Palaeolithic Mal’ta population into Native American ancestors is also shared by the Anzick-1 individual and thus happened before 12,600 years bp. We also show that the Anzick-1 individual is more closely related to all indigenous American populations than to any other group. Our data are compatible with the hypothesis that Anzick-1 belonged to a population directly ancestral to many contemporary Native Americans. Finally, we find evidence of a deep divergence in Native American populations that predates the Anzick-1 individual.

The takeaways from this research are that (a) these Clovis people were genetically related to contemporary Native Americans and are therefore not European migrants and (b) the genetic divergence of Native populations indicates that the Clovis culture was not the first in the Americas (as implied by pre-Clovis sites). The genetic tests in this study and other studies published recently indicate that the ancestral population that crossed into the Americas had genetic contributions from East Asian and central Siberian populations, and that these central Siberians also contributed their genes to what are now modern European populations. This probably shouldn’t surprise anyone since the Indo-Europeans are thought to have come out of central Asia and could have had a deeper origin in Siberia.

Taken with the study published recently in Nature showing similar results from genetic testing of a Siberian skeleton, it is looking more and more like the first Americans were a genetically diverse group of people from northeast Asia who had migrated from central Asia, picked up new members along the way, and kept on moving into the Americas. While this does not categorically exclude European intervention, it is yet another instance where the European genetic contribution suggested by the Solutrean hypothesis failed to turn up.

Noah’s Ark Movie Controversy
The new blockbuster movie version of the story of Noah and the Ark will be coming to theaters soon, and The Hollywood Reporter has an interesting behind the scenes look at Paramount’s efforts to massage conservative Christian perceptions of the film after test audiences and religious leaders complained that it is not scripturally accurate. The film features six-armed fallen angels, so I’m going to bet that Nephilim theorists like L. A. Marzulli will be championing the film as propaganda for their creationist claims.

But what I found interesting was the exasperation of the studio executives when self-described “significantly conservative” Christian audiences complained about “inaccuracies” that were actually in the Bible:
In some cases, [Paramount vice chair Rob] Moore says, "people had recollections of the story that weren't actually correct." For example, there was Noah's ability to open and close the door to the ark. "People said the door to the ark is supposed to be so big that no man can close it. Well no, that's not actually what it says. What it says is that God ultimately shut the door of the ark when the flood comes, so it wasn't Noah shutting the door on the rest of humanity -- it was God making a decision."

And then there's the scene -- which actually is in the Bible -- in which Noah, back on land after the flood, gets drunk by himself in a cave. "But most people do not remember or were never taught the fact that after Noah's off the ark, there is a moment in the story where he is drunk," says Moore.

Audiences were especially concerned about depictions of Noah as drunk, suggesting that it was disrespectful and offensive. If that’s the case, then Genesis 9:20-21 is blasphemous: “And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.”

It’s an interesting balancing act: Does an entertainment cater to its audiences’ prejudices and beliefs, even when they are wrong? What is the right choice when self-described believers don’t know or don’t want to know what is in the texts they want to see accurately translated to film? Also: How can you be offended by a depiction of a story you don’t actually know?

Aliens vs. God
Finally, I’d like to point out that in this week’s eSkeptic, reprinting a chapter from a recent book, Michael Shermer seems to have come most of the way toward adopting my analysis of developments in the ancient astronaut theory, though for a very different context. (Disclosure: Shermer has published many of my articles, and I know him slightly.) Riffing on Arthur C. Clarke’s famous maxim about technology being indistinguishable from magic, Shermer writes that technologically advanced aliens are therefore indistinguishable from gods. He describes the potential for advanced technology to lead to the ability to create planets, engage in quantum computing to the level of near-omniscience, and even the ability to use collapsing black holes to generate engineered universes:
What would we call an intelligent being that could engineer a universe, stars, planets, and life? If we knew the underlying science and technology used to do the engineering, we would call it ET; if we did not know the underlying science and technology, we would call it ID [intelligent design]; if we left science out of theology altogether, we would call it God.

Shermer uses this to attack the intelligent design belief system as bad theology and indistinguishable from ancient astronaut theories, but I’m interested in how it also neatly explains what we are seeing on Ancient Aliens, where over the show’s six seasons the aliens have become increasingly spiritual and godlike, to the point where the ancient astronaut theorists have only a thinly “scientific” façade separating them from neo-paganism. It seems that the ancient astronaut theorists have stumbled into this same realization, not through careful analysis or deep thought but rather through pushing their ideas outward toward their logical extremes in the desperate search for fresh material to fill the endless hours of the show’s unending run.

This is probably as good evidence as any that the cross-pollination between ancient astronaut theorists, Nephilim-theorists, and creationists—most recently seen in Brien Foerster’s use of a Bigfoot-Nephilim creationist researcher to test Peruvian bones for alien DNA—is no accident but the logical consequence of ideas that converge at their extremes.

65 Comments
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 03:39:38 am

Well, not exactly …

A DNA sample from ONE individual is "evidence" -- NOT "proof" …

Anyway, the Paleo-Indigenous peoples of the Americas lived in POPULATIONS … So … we need quite a few more samples widely dispersed geographically and over time in order to have anything close to "proof" … of something or other ...

Reply
Jason Colavito link
2/13/2014 04:00:40 am

As I said, Phil, it doesn't categorically exclude European contact but is yet another instance where Solutrean theory predictions failed to match the evidence. You can never categorically exclude Europeans since, like unicorns and pink elephants, they can always be hiding where we aren't looking.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 04:04:36 am

"unicorns" … ??? "pink elephants" … ???

See why it's so difficult to have a reasonable discussion about these interesting questions, when right out of the gate we get "snark" ...

Jason Colavito link
2/13/2014 04:09:53 am

Phil, are you intentionally pretending to be unaware of the classic examples used for illustrating highly unlikely events? The counterexample is the black swan, long thought to be in the category of pink elephants and unicorns until one was actually found. I'm not going to apologize for using standard examples straight out of probability textbooks.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 04:15:32 am

I am entirely familiar with the deliberately "snarky" use of those classic expressions of (im)"probability" …

And I refuse to apologize for attempting to have a SERIOUS conversation about some interesting questions ...

Jason Colavito link
2/13/2014 04:19:27 am

You're just looking for ways to be offended since my comments actually supported what you said about the inability to exclude Europeans entirely. You are once again hijacking a thread to focus on your own language issues. This line of commentary is closed.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 04:45:53 am

Jason …

Yes, use of language CAN either facilitate or prejudice -- or derail -- a conversation …

I won't apologize for pointing that out ...

J.A.D
2/13/2014 09:02:14 am

At times a small community can rewrite evolutionary history.
The 1.8 million year old fossils found in Dminisi, Georgia are
now placed inside the Homo Erectus "umbrella" designation
as they beg for a "two way street" reworking for some of the
"Out of Africa" ideas.

Paradigms can shift and change. Beringia as a
near total bottleneck arrival point for travel into S.A + N.A is
holding firm even if Clovis as a ceiling + floor has shattered.

WellGwhiz
2/14/2014 03:01:32 am

Rev. Phil wants to talk. Not about Unicorns and Pink Elephants. Why the acamdemic insult? Europeans to east coast US chances very good. Now compare to chances for Unicorns and Pink Elephants. Why get zonked on Phils head over this? Sure, Rev. Phils okay with me!

A.D.
2/13/2014 04:44:21 am

The Clovis era Anzick remains belongs to Y -DNA Q - L54*(xM3) and mtDNA D4h3a

Reply
A.D.
2/13/2014 04:50:38 am

Before the paper was published I read that it had a rare haplotype that is found in native americans and there was some speculation that it was possibly mtDNA X2a in anthro forums.It turns out it is D4h3a.This is typically a coastal haplotype that's found from the west coast all the way down to the coast and ancient burials in southern Chile.

Reply
Only Me
2/13/2014 06:26:21 am

Your dishonesty is staggering, Phil.

You tell Jason, "One individual is NOT proof", yet all it took was ONE misinterpreted individual to get all the "Europeans first" supporters to come crawling out of the woodwork, crowing, "See, we were right all along!". Does Kennewick Man ring a bell?

If "One individual is NOT proof" is the standard, at least have the guts to make sure the revisionists are obeying the rule, too.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 07:03:15 am

Hello … ???

I have never taken any particular stand re: the Kennewick Man in regard to ANYTHING …

But, yes, since you bring him up, in THAT case also, ONE individual does not constitute an entire POPULATION …

That is basic Genetics 101 … So what … ???

And … I am in no league with EITHER "revisionists" OR hidebound "traditionalists" … I'm simply deeply INTERESTED in these questions and remain intentionally OPEN minded …( I DON'T, however, expect to find any fossil remains of "unicorns" in any of my own field trips …)

Reply
Only Me
2/13/2014 08:57:31 am

"A DNA sample from ONE individual is "evidence" -- NOT "proof" …"
"I have never taken any particular stand re: the Kennewick Man in regard to ANYTHING …"

*Golf clap* Bravo, Phil, bravo. Two strawman arguments in one day. The DNA study of the Clovis child is, indeed, evidence...which will be added to the growing body of cumulative study that confirms the non-European origin of Native Americans. At least you grasped the purpose behind my example of Kennewick Man.

"So what...???" Well, the DNA research of the Windover Bog people was revealed to be possibly contaminated by a man who participated in the analysis, Joseph Lorenz, but it was accepted as factual evidence of European origin by both Stanford and Scott Wolter, among others. Isn't ensuring the sampling is free of contamination also Genetics 101?

I also find it amusing how you've embraced alternative history's favorite phrases: "It's possible" and "Open minded". Yet, you said:

"I DON'T, however, expect to find any fossil remains of "unicorns" in any of my own field trips …"

Not being open minded or considering the possibility, are you?

This is why I wonder why you continue to come here. Your own arguments unravel themselves.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 09:08:29 am

"Only Me" --

Ummm … No … I have never written or said ANYTHING about the "Windover Bog People" … (or about "unicorns" until *someone*else* brought them up …) You seem to have me confused with somebody else …


So … ???

Only Me
2/13/2014 09:56:54 am

"I have never written or said ANYTHING about the "Windover Bog People" …"

And I never said you did. That's your third strawman for today.

I answered your question of "So what", as it pertains to Genetics 101, with an example of what can happen when the basic aren't followed.

Trying to be evasive with the unicorn reference is strawman number four. You claimed to be open minded and things can't necessarily be dismissed because "It's possible" (i.e., Solutrean Hypothesis). I just pointed out that you were being the opposite in regards to unicorns, based on your own quote.

No confusion here, Phil.

Terry link
2/13/2014 12:32:39 pm

I take it you're a Christian by the "Rev" in your name. I am curious if you know why you feel the need to use CAPS so MUCH? I've noticed other Christians with the same habit. I really don't know why, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that has noticed it nearly everywhere while engaged with a christian in a forum; when font colors and underlining are allowed then it really gets INTERESTING. I don't mean offence. I truely am curious as to why and if you have noticed that you and others do this.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 01:15:58 pm

"Only Me" --

Well … In your post, YOU brought up "the Windover Bog" People … I dunno … *whatever*

yakko
2/13/2014 05:12:57 pm

Terry: a LOT of Evangelical Christian polemical writers just LOVE to use italics, small caps, and BIG caps FOR EMPHASIS, usually about every THIRD or FOURTH word, unless they REALLY get wound up! This is likely a carryover from their conventional preaching style, where volume and intonation is an important part of delivering the message. It's mostly characteristic of this one variety of Christianity - you don't often see, say, Presbyterians writing like that - although the style is often used in cult-religion publications as well.

I can't speak for the good reverend, though I will say that he appears to capitalize words that he doesn't want us to miss. I myself frequently capitalize a word here and there for emphasis, since this site doesn't let me use italics. I write more or less the way I speak, and I don''t write well enough to make my points through rhetoric.

Terry Melanson link
2/13/2014 06:56:38 pm

Thanks yakko. It has helped me understand.

They should realize, however, that overuse of CAPS, in an internet setting, may come across as being mad all the time - shouting to get your point across.

WellGwhiz
2/15/2014 02:01:50 am

I think some one of name VARIKA here, before started to many CAPS! Also to many others here, NOT ONLY the Rev. Phil. That Tara girl, for one to. Okay, so what? We understand. No big deal. Whose purfect?

Brent
2/18/2014 05:54:19 am

Don't feed the troll lol

Reply
WellGwhiz
2/13/2014 06:55:47 am

Can the de-bunker always provide fair and unbiased review without conflict of interest?

Writing reviews: "...not let their evaluation be influenced by relationships, or the potential for personal gain."

Can't help but wondering.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 07:05:13 am

It does seem that a "de-bunker" -- by definition -- is inclined to be prejudiced in any investigation ...

Reply
The Other J.
2/13/2014 08:05:51 am

That's only because you don't have the first clue what a debunker does, and just project your own "I'm coming at this with an agenda!" attitude on everyone else you see here that doesn't agree with your predetermined position.

Seriously, you're like a damn funhouse mirror that doesn't know it reflects.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 08:47:03 am

"Other J" --

Well … ummm …

In this particular case, I am open mindedly DEEPLY interested in the pre-history of North America with NO preconceptions or agenda or prejudices AT ALL … as distinct from the resident "de-bunker" who immediately shifts to invoking "unicorns" …

I dunno … LOL ...

Only Me
2/13/2014 09:02:27 am

" with NO preconceptions or agenda or prejudices AT ALL..."

But, you still continue to call academics "hidebound traditionalists" and describe skeptics (debunkers) as "prejudiced". Sorry, Phil, your biased slip is showing.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 09:05:32 am

No …

I have NEVER referred to or denounced "academics" as "hidebound traditionalists" EXCEPT in the infamous case of the "Clovis First" Dogma having been routinely invoked for DECADES whenever an older site turned up ...

J.A.D
2/13/2014 09:24:42 am

Piltdown Man was worse, it stripped Raymond Dart of his full
recognition for the longest time, even if he was very much an
Indiana Jones era dude who did not hold back his opines. It
perhaps slightly slowed down the Leakeys via their funding.
We need people to act on their bold insights and intuitions
as they go into the field when trying to back up a hypothesis.
A baby that young implies a community and a support system.

Only Me
2/13/2014 10:00:43 am

"I am in no league with EITHER "revisionists" OR hidebound "traditionalists" …"

So, who are the above traditionalists, if they're not revisionists? Based on your own past comments, one can only assume you were referring to academics.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 01:18:39 pm

"Only Me" --

I don't give a rip about any proposed "p*ssing contest" between contesting schools -- whether "traditionalists" or "revisionists" … or snarky "de-bunkers" ...

Only Me
2/13/2014 03:48:30 pm

This isn't about a pissing contest, Phil. Nor is it about snark. I'm pointing to contradictions in your own comments. It's an effort to make you think about what you say and to keep you honest.

You said, " I am open mindedly DEEPLY interested in the pre-history of North America with NO preconceptions or agenda or prejudices AT ALL …", but, you have been guilty of calling academics "hidebound" and "traditionalists". You've called the commenters here, that agree with Jason's articles, "sycophants". You've also said that skeptics are "prejudiced". These aren't preconceptions?

Your constant defense of Scott Wolter by calling all criticism "personal attacks", and your constant objections against exploring the racial components of revisionist history isn't an agenda? You're not prejudiced in your support for Scott, due to your friendship, at all?

You once told Tara Jordan that you don't come here to debate. So, I ask again, why *do* you come here?

Clint Knapp
2/13/2014 07:02:13 pm

The repetitious phrases, the authoritarian attempt to control the flow of conversation, and the "shouting" (ALL-CAPS)... It's pretty obvious why he's here: to preach.

A.D.
2/13/2014 06:59:52 am

Eske Willerslev talks about the genome of this 1 year child from the Clovis era.Though I see many problems with the raghavan 2013 paper and Eske Willerslev's statements months ago now proves that there were no "west eurasians" that came here first and then supposedly "mixed" with the "asians".His statements months ago did not sit well with me from the previous studies I have read and seems to open another can of worms for the racist to exploit.Whatever this connection there is with the old world they picked up was when natives were still back in the old world.

Clovis Boy

Eske Willerslev discusses how the genetic sequencing of a male infant from a Clovis burial site is prompting scientists to reconsider the handling of tribal remains.

http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-genome-stirs-ethics-debate-1.14698

Having Native Ancestry from Central America I've never had a problem testing old remains.This is a sensitive problem only here in this country because of historical context.Early grave robbing and the ugly history of eugenics prompted NAGPRA law to be created.So it is whites fault for it existing.
Nobody is "hiding" anything.But I don't blame North American tribes for not trusting scientist handling their ancestors remains.

Reply
J.A.D
2/13/2014 08:52:47 am

Good point!!!
The B.I.A has
a history to it.

Reply
Walt
2/13/2014 08:06:43 am

"I’m going to be that Nephilim theorists.."

The word "be" s/b "bet" I think.

Reply
J.A.D
2/13/2014 08:48:24 am

I see that things are totally typical at this blog~site today.
The big storm has our local Channel Five doing ongoing
coverage. My empathy is with Jason, locally we had areas
where 3" fell in an hour and even though my area is getting
ten inches, and its nothing like the Blizzard of '78, i have yet
to really shovel. ELLEN got bumped from her 4 p.m spot on
the schedule, her show is on ME-tv's 5.2 classics channel.
A foot of snow system dumped in Virginia and D.C got 10"...

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 08:55:16 am

In Minnesota, we're used to it … Any particular snow storm is a *free* at-home visit to the sports and health club for useful cardio exercise and meaningful weight training ...

Reply
J.A.D
2/13/2014 09:12:03 am

Normally 8" to 10" shouldn't be throwing people for a loop,
but locally the snow went from light and fluffy to sleety slick
ice begging to go into full ice-storm mode. So far we have
not had snapped branches. One third of Logan's flights are
cancelled, especially if they are going to a southern locale.
Once again, the variability of a New England winter is on us.

Walt
2/13/2014 09:33:09 am

So, I have a question about all the DNA talk lately. I have to admit my eyes gloss over when the discussion turns to chromosomes.

Aren't we all the same animal sharing a single history? I understand Jason believes that if Europeans merged with Siberians to form the Clovis, then that "denies Native Americans their history". And, some really want to be able to prove that pre-Columbian Europeans crossed the Atlantic, for their own reasons. But, isn't the argument just about the semantics of which route one species took to populate the world?

Are we all the same species with one common history of populating the world, or do the DNA results indicate we really are different species with different histories?

Reply
Jason Colavito link
2/13/2014 09:38:39 am

I'm not placing Native American heritage above factual accuracy, Walt. Instead, the weight of evidence says that there was no contact with the Old World from the Atlantic side before or during the Clovis period. What I object to is the wholesale rewriting of history against the weight of evidence, which does in fact have the effect of denying Native Americans their heritage.

We are one species, but one that has many different genetic groupings. These are interesting for showing us how people migrated from one region to another, and which groups interacted. It's not entirely semantics, though, because peopling America from Europe would alter our understanding of Paleolithic European culture, and it would also redefine where we should be allocating resources in excavating for early sites.

Reply
Walt
2/13/2014 11:36:55 am

Ah, I understand your position on Native Americans better now. It's the racist reasons some support the Solutrean hypothesis that denies Native Americans their heritage, rather than the theory itself. And I never intended to imply that you would ignore facts to let them keep their heritage.

I do find the migrations and genetic groupings fascinating, but if we all share common ancestors in Africa, does it really matter, other than for the sake of history?

I realize it took thousands of years to expand around the globe and cultures emerged during that time, but I still don't quite get the point of arguing about which culture migrated where, other than based on evidence for historical accuracy. Even if one wins the discussion, his ancestors still came from Africa just like everyone else's.

Only Me
2/13/2014 09:43:39 am

Modern man is one species, Walt. However, the agenda to prove Europeans came to North America first, and latching onto any evidence that would prove it, is more about ethnicity. Of course, there are also the blatantly racist and political elements to consider, as well, but for some, it's the grand prize to prove that "whites" were the original settlers.

Reply
WellGwhiz
2/13/2014 01:21:02 pm

If coming from the north and west, why not Europe, to? Who can be selective about what direction NOT to come from? What color back then? Brown? White more recent than 20 K years ago, likely. This makes this the European issue of discovery and influence, so, not racist and white, if we understand it correct. Lets be fair to all directions about spear-points and DNA. Yes, look at old sites on east coast, but more about artifacts from everywhere else, to. Lets de-bunk ideas about white racism EVERYWHERE in history, Only Me. Biased focus here, otherwise? I think so. I like alot of white people. Sorry? Guilty? Not so much.

Only Me
2/13/2014 03:23:43 pm

Migration from Europe is not impossible, but as I've said before, highly unlikely. The evidence simply isn't as strong as what has been found to support the migration from Asia. As the article above reveals, the DNA evidence alone is another strike against a European migration hypothesis. In that case, color is irrelevant either way.

The efforts of Jason and others, such as A.D., isn't about debunking racism; it's about enlightening others as to how racism is a driving force behind some of the alternative history claims. This issue isn't limited to just "whites". For example, the stone heads of the Olmecs have been claimed as evidence of previous Atlantean contact, a lost white civilization AND African/Nubian influence.

Whether it's one-world diffusionism, Eurocentrism or Afrocentrism, trying to attribute and supplant the accomplishments of indigenous cultures to/in favor of someone else is wrong.

Walt
2/13/2014 04:56:29 pm

"Whether it's one-world diffusionism, Eurocentrism or Afrocentrism, trying to attribute and supplant the accomplishments of indigenous cultures to/in favor of someone else is wrong."

But playing the race card is also wrong, because it virtually ends a discussion which may have historical merit. Indigenous cultures have their heritage and culture regardless of their genetic origin. Suddenly discovering through science that some culture has their genetic roots elsewhere has nothing whatsoever to do with the society they established. Just because it does mean that to some people doesn't mean that all discussion of the topic should lead to racism.

An overriding theme of many at this blog seems to be that if someone were to find accepted evidence that Europeans crossed the Atlantic and formed the Clovis, somehow that changes the culture, accomplishments, and heritage of Native Americans. If that were true, then since the current consensus is we all came from Africa, all the societies in the world would've already had their accomplishments "attributed and supplanted to/in favor of" someone else.

Only Me
2/13/2014 06:29:52 pm

You're right about the race card, Walt. Unfortunately, as we've seen from past headlines on this blog, quite a few revisionist ideas stem from past racial views. Indigenous people have had their heritage and culture explained away due to contact with other civilizations. Egyptians in New Zealand? Check. Phoenicians in North America? Check. Nubians in Central America? Check. Atlanteans virtually everywhere? Check. This is the race-driven assumption that must be addressed, otherwise, wild and unfounded beliefs about how the "natives" were too stupid to accomplish anything on their own becomes the norm.

Evidence of Europeans coming to the Americas only changes the history of who came here and when. It's when the evidence (if it's found) is used to justify the beliefs I mentioned above that the situation becomes problematic. Suddenly, to some, the way Native Americans were treated in the past is acceptable, since they weren't here first. And if they had been as civilized, they wouldn't have been abused, right?

New evidence isn't the threat. It's the idea that indigenous people owe their existence to an outside influence that is. It's elevating one culture at the expense of denigrating another.

Walt
2/13/2014 07:51:55 pm

You said that all very well and I can't argue.

The only troublesome part is that it all means scientific discussions are tainted. The Solutrean Hypothesis' main proponent is Dr Stanford at the Smithsonian. His proposal was simply an attempt to explain why the stone tools of the Clovis, in his opinion, bear no resemblance to stone tools from back across the land bridge, but do bear a strong resemblance to tools from France. To have a discussion about that means discussing stone tools and archaeology, not Europeans, Native Americans, heritage, culture, and racism. His idea just can't even be discussed without someone crying "Eurocentrist!". It's unfortunate. Especially since, in my mind, we're all just one people with one history anyway.

I don't understand why racists do what they do, but I also don't understand why anti-racists broadly associate racism with ideas, rather than just with some of the people supporting those ideas. Dr. Stanford is "almost 100%" convinced the Solutrean Hypothesis is correct, based on his interpretation of circumstantial evidence, and as far as I know, he has no emotional pony in the race. It's just science to him, so it should be science to everyone, including racists and anti-racists (there's probably a word for being overly anti-racist but i don't know it.)

RLewis
2/14/2014 12:17:47 am

Walt,
Another reason why racism is often discussed on this blog is that the subjects (reviews) generally center around presumably faked artifacts or fringe interpretations of historical evidence. The question is: What would be the motive to fake/skew information? The answer often appears to be blatant racism.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/14/2014 12:33:06 am

Walt --

I completely agree with you on the foul *taint* introduced into these discussions by the near reflexive race-baiting …

In REAL "science," it is ALL about facts, ideas, claims, evidence -- NOT ideology ...

Only Me
2/14/2014 03:14:52 am

I think the term you're looking for, Walt, is "politically correct". Again, nice observation of the use of race in scientific discussions. I think Jason does an especially good job of tying the racial content to specific individuals, i.e., Jacque de Mahieu, Frank Joseph, etc.

Phil, I agree that science should be about facts, claims, ideas and evidence. If the recent Ken Ham-Bill Nye debate showed anything, it was what happens when one side addresses the *science*, while the other uses *ideology* disguised as science.

J.A.D
2/13/2014 09:47:07 am

For 70,000+ years we have been ONE species, and for anywhere
from 50,000 to 250,000 years we may have had rafts or boats...

Until Columbus, an unplanned and under-provisioned trip
across the North Atlantic either way had the person arriving
half dead and in need of weeks or months of a recovery time.
Siberia's land-bridge is a given, some recent "immigrants"
did walk but others could have easily traveled the 50 miles
in boats. The quarrel is over whether there were other ways
to travel + if there are people here before 50,000 B.C or even
500,000 B.C!!! Sometimes this blog-site is trolled by total
bigots who think the early Americans to be incapable of any
significant achievements. That particular bias is very wrong...

Reply
J.A.D
2/13/2014 09:56:09 am

Native Americans are THE First Americans. FDR may have
put it succinctly when at the height of the Great Depression
he is thought to have addressed members of the D.A.R as
"My fellow immigrants..". This is one of the stories that is fun
to repeat that one really wants to be 100% true and accurate.

Thane
2/13/2014 11:29:25 am

>>he is thought to have addressed members of the D.A.R as
"My fellow immigrants..".<<

By that reasoning, the Native Americans would be the first immigrants as they too traveled from their lands of origin to the North and South American continents.

To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, there are no humanoids that originated on these continents.

I have no emotional, philosophical, or intellectual baggage attached to which peoples first populated the Americas. I'm interested simply because I am interested in history and cultures. As a result, I really don't understand why some (and I do believe it to be a minority) people are so invested in needing to prove that Europeans or Africans or whoevers came here first.

The Other J and others who are deep into genetics, can you provide some good sites for novice lay-people interested in learning more? I have skimmed some sites but they often presume a level of knowledge that is outside my areas of previous study.

Thanks.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/13/2014 02:34:43 pm

Thane --

No, sorry … There is NO quick-easy-simply introduction to "genetics" …

THE entry point should first be a study of "biology" (living things) in general, and especially "ecology" and then "developmental biology" and THEN one is ready to start thinking about DNA and chromosomes, etc., and such, but always always always in context of an evolving/reproducing population of a species, rather than just lab studies of gene sequences ...

Clint Knapp
2/13/2014 10:38:49 pm

Nevermind this negative garbage, Thane. For one thing, Phil's a clergyman and a geologist- therefore no more an authority on the matter than anyone else here and probably somewhat less than others.

From your own question, you're looking for a layman's understanding- not a professional working knowledge like Phil seems to assume you need. Consider approaching it from the same angle as a medical transcriptionist. Their education requires learning a vast array of medical jargon, but none of the technical application of the concepts they describe.

One can hold a conversation and a reading-level understanding of any subject with the right vocabulary. It'll just require a bit of side-reading whenever a new term or concept pops up to understand the essence of that term. In the case of most of the genetic discussions that happen here, you get a lot of reference to haplogroups and the name of specific genes, but don't particularly require a knowledge of how to read a gene sequence.

I can't really point to any one source for all your terminology needs (thankfully, the Internet is replete with good information on anything you require), but it won't require an advanced education biology to keep up any more than one has to have advanced degrees in particle physics to understand how a nuclear bomb works.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/14/2014 12:29:00 am

My first degree was in biology, emphasis on genetics and evolution and I've done some grad level study in paleontology …

One of my minor study areas was North American archaeology …

I have been a member of the biology section of the American Association for the Advancement of Science for 40 years … and I've tried to *keep*up* …

So these interests go far beyond a casual *pass*time* for me ...

Thane
2/14/2014 01:38:43 am

Thanks for the responses.

I apologise for my poorly worded request. I know what genetics are and how it works, replete with a non-specialist's knowledge of biology and a smattering of other sciences as well. I am not completely uneducated through my degree isn't in a hard science. (I even tested out of the science requirements for my degree with a high score) I should have, however, chosen a more expansive explanation of what I am seeking. I have to say that Clint Knapp discerned my meaning and understood my question....he must be psychic! ::wink::

I don't need to know the details of sequencing but when we discuss halogroups and so on, I rather not get quickly lost. By the way, I do have the start of an understanding of halogroups but is there a handy reference chart on the 'net that lists them with an explanation of things like origin and occurrence % in which populations etc... A cheat sheet. ...and maybe with corresponding map showing the "travel" of the halogroup.

I can't imagine that someone in the field or an avid student of it hasn't put together such a site replete with interactive mapping. If not, feel free to steal the idea!

PS: thanks Clint

WellGwhiz
2/14/2014 03:35:53 am

from J.A.D.,

"We need people to act on their bold insights and intuitions
as they go into the field when trying to back up a hypothesis."

Boo hoo hoo, I miss Gunn!

Every single Native Americans ancestor back in time came from someplace else, originally, right? I was born here, so I am Native American, right, OR, no such thing as Native American. Try a new word. Yeah, look at artifacts, to, for correct answers, not just DNA.

Dave Lewis
2/13/2014 01:31:23 pm

I'm also interested in human origins. Last week I did a search and found a blog by a school teacher who seems to be pretty good at searching out articles.

http://jameszaworskishumanoriginsblog.blogspot.com/?view=classic

Dave Lewis

Reply
yakko
2/13/2014 06:21:45 pm

Another thing people "remember" from the Biblical account is that Noah built his ship far from the ocean, and that his neighbors made fun of him for that for all the time he was building it. This is the Sunday School version we learn as children, but the actual text is mostly a long speech by the Lord about how to build the ark and what to put in it, and after that it just says that Noah did what the Lord commanded. Then they went into the ark, and Lord! Didn't it rain!

That thing about the door is likely something similar. Child: Why did God close the door to the ark. Teacher: Well, maybe it was just too big for a man to close, so God had to do it. (But you have to wonder: could it have been...ALIENS?) I never heard it that way - I was told that God closed the door himself, so that the humans couldn't open it at the wrong time and sink the ark.

It's something of a mystery to me how so many "Bible believers" can quote you a verse for every occasion, but are so clueless about the actual stories those verses tell.

Reply
Thane
2/14/2014 04:04:18 am

Similar experience. I was raised Catholic and in Sunday school, the emphasis was on God's command to Noah, the reasons for the command, Noah's doing as God commanded, God sealed the ark so stupid humans wouldn't open it until it was safe, the lack of rain, the testing of Noah's faith due to the lack of rain, the mocking of the people, finally the rain, the long time for the water to recede, the further testing of faith as it took forever for the rain to stop and water to recede, and then God safely delivering the ark and it's cargo of people and other living things, finally the thanks to God for the safe delivery.

The complaints I've heard about the movie is that there is, allegedly, a big "environmentalist" slant to the tale in the sense of it being overly "preachy" ...but i haven't seen it. I probably won't as I prefer my religious movies old-school with classic era movie starts and shown in intense marathons during Lent, Easter, Christmas, and other High Holy Days as in my youth. Jam packed weekends of movies!

Reply
Jason Colavito link
2/14/2014 03:47:25 am

Please note: I have deleted a comment for violating the comments policy on offensive language and attacks on individuals' personalities.

Reply
KIF
2/14/2014 09:16:47 am

Debunking EvDs theories is an attack on his personality

Reply
Brent
2/18/2014 06:11:20 am

Yeah, a lot of Christians don't really know what the Bible actually SAYS- which isn't a problem as long as they're trying to learn and don't assume they DO know it just because it's "common knowledge." After all it's "common knowledge" that the Bible tells us to "Be true to thine self, and to thine own self be true."

A lot of us have this picturesque Bible story in our heads that fits perfectly without having to study too hard. A lot of it is based off of things like movies, children's books, playes/pagents, paintings etc. But the Bible isn't that simple. If it was, I wouldn't base my life on it lol. Because yeah, turns out life isn't that simple either.

This false (and by false I mean not based on the Bible, which is the book Christianity is based on and must therefore be the basis of the system) Biblical story/ belief system is hinted at by all of the (IMHO) silly pictures of beautiful lady-angels with bird-wings watching over people or ghost-grandpas playing with children (but we can't see them), etc.

They're all common images, just like a white bearded Jesus and the oblong Ark with the double doors and the ramp and the little hut on top. And its fine as far as it goes- like in children's books. But SO much of this kind of thing has NO basis in the Bible.

It irks me. This example is just Christians, but it goes for all sorts of things- if it wasn't the Bible, it would be whatever OTHER book a given system was based on. So many people think they have an idea of what something is about, but the basis for their picture of that system is either fictional or nonexistent in the actual foundational documents.

Sometimes it's harmless, but no matter what the subject is, if you take it truly seriously, if you want to really KNOW the subject, you really have to dig in.


P.S.
And this is without even touching all of the holidays and other stuff that got mixed with Pagan traditions, figures, etc. Not enough room for that, and I haven't the knowledge. But it shows how deep you can dig and how important context can be (if you're familiar with what I'm talking about)

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    • Miscellaneous Documents >
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      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
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      • James Dean's Scrapbook
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      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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