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"Oak Island" Gives Verdict on "Roman" Sword; Plus: Are Fairy Tales Bronze Age Relics?

1/20/2016

53 Comments

 
Last night The Curse of Oak Island delivered its verdict on the allegedly “Roman” sword that erstwhile Treasure Force Commander and current History Heretic J. Hutton Pulitzer has been promoting as a “100% confirmed” Roman artifact that would rewrite Nova Scotia history. The Lagina brothers, stars of the show, had the sword examined at St. Mary’s University in Nova Scotia, where both an expert in Classics and a chemist specializing in metals declared that the sword is almost certainly modern. A chemical analysis of the sword found that it was made of brass with a zinc content of about 35%, characteristic of brass made in the 1890s or later. Older brass has a lower zinc content.
Strictly speaking, though, one could theoretically argue that the Romans used extra special brass with lots of zinc for obscure purposes. J. Hutton Pulitzer took a different path, and in postings on Facebook last night he suggested that the chemist’s slightly nervous demeanor while being filmed indicated potential fraud: “She was bright red delivering the test results. Somethings a miss (sic).” In a further posting on Medium.com, Pulitzer revised his claims somewhat and now backed down on his original assertion that the Nova Scotia sword had been “100% confirmed” and “tested,” now arguing that there are unspecified other swords which have been “certified” and which the Nova Scotia sword must be tested against. Presumably he means the David X. Kenney’s copy in Florida, which is not certified except by Kenney.
 
He revealed his own motives for promoting the Roman sword when he claimed to have exclusive information about interpersonal disagreements among the cast of Curse of Oak Island, which he reported beneath a vaguely homoerotic image of the all-male cast of the show fondling the sword, captioned “Are you ready for sword play?” Sadly, since “Sword Play” was the name of the episode, I don’t think Pulitzer actually realized how his graphic appeared.
 
I’m bored with the sword, and I think it’s pretty clear from both this episode and from the work that Andy White has done analyzing other versions of the sword that it’s not a Roman artifact. The 1890s or later date almost makes me wonder whether it was a World’s Fair item, and it would be interesting to see if the Italian Pavilion at one of the expositions was casting these things for visitors. But my interest in this is pretty much over.
 
So that’s why I was intrigued to read a BBC article this morning that claims that fairy tales can be traced back to the Bronze Age using evolutionary analysis. According to Jamie Tehrani of Durham University and Sara Graca Da Silva of Lisbon’s New University, by looking at the appearance of similar stories across cultures, we can determine when they were first told by looking at when each culture’s language split from a common ancestor. “They were probably told in an extinct Indo-European language,” Durham said.
 
The article is entitled “Comparative Phylogenetic Analyses Uncover the Ancient Roots of Indo-European Folktales” and was published in the Royal Society Open Science journal last week. Yet there is the troublesome issue of stories spreading from culture to culture across space, not simply descending from a common ancestor across time. The authors claim that they can disentangle the two types of transmission by constructing a phylogenic chart of stories to look for commonalities that can then be mapped onto a chart of languages. By correlating changes in folklore to changes in language they feel we can find the original period when a story was told.
 
This seems to me to be problematic since a story could spread from culture to culture and then adapt to the language and culture of each, thus giving the appearance of being ancestral when it was, in fact, not. For example, Edwin Sidney Hartland, writing the nineteenth century, found versions of the tale of Perseus spread across Indo-European cultures. It wasn’t clear to me how one would differentiate between an “ancestral” Perseus tale and one that was derived from a Classical source. In fact, I read a few years ago a book that claimed that popular fairy tales had Classical origins (forgive me for forgetting the title), and given the widespread influence of Greco-Roman culture on other Indo-European-speaking groups, it would seem difficult to separate this out, or, in a more complex way, what happens when one group inherits an ancestral story from a more recent ancestor that is then adopted by other groups that shared more distant ancestors. I’d have liked to see the researchers examine whether any of these stories were also told by non-Indo-European groups (as Hartland found for Perseus tales) and, if so, how these might impact the overall analysis. Surely, the appearance of a story in a non-Indo-European culture shouldn’t lead us to conclude that the story goes back to the Paleolithic!
 
This is an interesting study, and whose probabilistic modeling I’m not sure I entirely followed. It’s quite possible that some folk tales have Bronze Age origins: Greek mythology, after all, has Mycenaean origins, and the Mycenaeans clearly had their mythology from Indo-European sources. I’d like to learn more about this and whether the same results would occur with a wider view of folklore. 
53 Comments
DaveR
1/20/2016 08:58:19 am

The fall-back claim of the fringe, an academic conspiracy designed to hide the truth. Who didn't see that coming?

These guys have the mental and ethical dexterity to simply ignore facts and continue professing clearly false conclusions. Then they have the audacity to cry about not being taken seriously by the scientific community.

Reply
Tom
1/20/2016 05:17:36 pm

So true - perfectly said

Reply
Bob Jase
1/20/2016 09:01:23 am

1890's metallury? Clearly an alien presented this sword to Commodus!

Reply
Clete
1/20/2016 07:11:34 pm

Everyone is wrong. The Lady of the Lake presented the sword to Arthur, king of all the Britons. He then boarded one of the eighteen lost Templar ships, by luck and happenstance, it happened to be the one carrying the lost treasure of Solomon. They sailed to Oak Island and buried the treasure. Then Arthur, who was a Knight Templar, had carved, by Henry Sinclair, runes describing where the treasure was buried and claiming all of the North American continent. He then, before dying, returned the sword to the Lady of the Lake, who left her lake and was hanging out in the North Atlantic.

Reply
Gerard Plourde
1/20/2016 07:23:59 pm

I'll buy your theory if you can account for giants and ancient aliens. (Maybe we can have giant aliens found the Masons and the Illuminati.)

DaveR
1/21/2016 11:07:14 am

My theory, which is impossible to disprove and is, therefore, plausible and fully conforms to the known facts is far less obtuse.

A time traveling alien/human/dolphin hybrid acquired a replica sword on 9/9/1890 and delivered it to the ancient Romans. They, in turn, used the sword as a reference for the construction of their own swords, however the Romans were unable to copy the zinc content exactly and made minor changes to the design of the sword. After the Romans were done with our sword, the dolphin, I like to call him Tim, swam across the Atlantic and left the sword at Oak Island. The Roman's not using the same zinc content and changing the design of the sword slightly explains why the Oak Island sword is not exactly like contemporary Roman swords of that era. Don't blame Tim, the fault lies with the Romans.

While visiting the natives there Tim had sex with several local women and his offspring, due to his alien/human/dolphin genes, grew much larger than normal humans. Over the course of generations these hybrid genes slowly were supplanted by normal human genes and the line of giants died out.

Tim returned across the Atlantic and, as joke only known to himself, came up with the idea of Atlantis and imparted the story to Plato one night while the two were drinking wine and smoking herbs.

After this Tim returned to the modern world where he now lives happily at Sea World balancing beach balls, jumping through hoops, and eating all the free fish humans provide.

Mike Jones
1/20/2016 09:32:32 am

"A Lagina and his money is soon parted" Abraham Lincoln, 1967.

Reply
Brian
1/20/2016 09:34:01 am

"the all-mast cast" is an appropriate Freudian typo in that paragraph.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
1/20/2016 09:51:45 am

I fixed the typo!

Reply
Time Machine
1/20/2016 09:47:01 am

>>>the sword is almost certainly modern<<<

The Turin Shroud is genuine despite the C 14 tests
And it cannot be C 14 tested anymore because it has been coated in preservatives (according to a documentary).

Reply
Gerard Plourde
1/20/2016 11:04:08 am

I think comparing question of the Pulitzer Sword to those surrounding the Shroud of Turin is off the mark. The provenance of the Shroud is definitively traceable in the historical record to 14th century France. Its history prior to that time is subject to debate but because of accounts of the Veronica and the Image of Edessa, missing artifacts that could refer to the Shroud there is a plausible case that can be made to trace it to at least the 4th Century. While C14 tests argue for a Medieval date, the method by which the photograph-like negative image was produced is problematic and only conjectural theories have been put forward. Because there is also the added attribution of divine intervention which could conceivably make our testing methods unreliable, the question can remain open.

Conversely, the Pulitzer sword appears from the waters off Oak Island within the last century with no provenance at all. A test of the composition of the sword reveals that the mixture is consistent with modern manufacturing techniques but not with known Roman ones. Further, there is no reason to believe that an unknown variable like that posited for the Shroud could be at play. Therefore an argument favoring modern manufacture is more likely.

Reply
Bob Jase
1/20/2016 11:12:20 am

Except that the RCC claims to have both the Veronica (which is an obvious painting) and the Image of Edessa (which they will not allow tested) so neither of these are missing.

DaveR
1/20/2016 11:26:53 am

"Because there is also the added attribution of divine intervention which could conceivably make our testing methods unreliable, the question can remain open."

Are you actually claiming that God is altering the results of the C14 tests?

V
1/21/2016 01:32:53 pm

DaveR, the C14 dating on the Shroud is definitively flawed. It doesn't require divine intervention for it, either. C-14 is only reliable for artifacts that haven't been handled over time. We have definitive records that the Shroud has been handled, displayed, repaired, and even been in the close vicinity to a large fire over his history, all of which are things that can foul C14 data.

I tend to believe it's a somewhat earlier medieval artifact than the 14th century, but not Biblical, by the way. But that C14 dating was crap.

DaveR
1/21/2016 01:58:02 pm

V, I'm aware of the difficulties dating the shroud due to the handling, storage, and fire. My recollection is the argument against the dating is smoke and ash from the fire has been absorbed by the cloth and that's why the C14 dating comes up dates consistent with the monastery fire.

I also remember reading the weaving of the shroud is consistent with weaving techniques used during the early middle ages and not with techniques used during the time of the crucifixion.

Whether or not the shroud is from the 14th century or earlier is almost a moot point as the craze for religious relics created an environment where unscrupulous people would create relics to sell to those who would pay the most. It's doubtful any of the relics around the world are authentic.

Time Machine
1/20/2016 11:37:37 am

>>>provenance of the Shroud is definitively traceable in the historical record to 14th century France<<<

Not only that. there's the Memorandum of a bishop who claims he found proof it was a fake.

Reply
Kathleen
1/20/2016 10:41:57 am

Are you going to call back to Dr . McCallum at St. Mary's University and get his unedited analysis of the sword?

Reply
Jason Colavito link
1/20/2016 11:25:33 am

Andy White posted Dr. McCallum's comments on the sword over on his blog. I'm trying to think whether there is anything he didn't already cover.

Reply
Bobby B.
1/20/2016 12:35:39 pm

As far as I know, Miles McCallum won't be able to do any significant talking about the sword, until the episode airs in Canada this Sunday. I expect he'll have more to say to Andy after Sunday.

Gerard Plourde
1/20/2016 11:42:07 am

DaveR.

I'm not claiming that divine intervention occurred vis a vis the Shroud. My purpose was to show that Time Machine was making a poor analogy. In order to do so, I'm stating is that if (conjectural) the image on the Shroud were the result of a process that we cannot test for (divine intervention being one of the alternatives), it could have an effect that would make our result unreliable whereas there would be no known grounds whatsoever to doubt the findings regarding the Pulitzer sword.

Reply
DaveR
1/20/2016 01:16:59 pm

For some reason my reply to you got posted as a separate comment.

Reply
Gerard Plourde
1/20/2016 04:20:15 pm

The same thing happened in my initial reply to you. "Ancient Astronaut Theorists" probably have an explanation (just not the right one).

Time Machine
1/20/2016 01:23:38 pm

A bishop's memorandum is being ignored in this discussion like in most documentaries on the Turin Shroud, made by believers...

Reply
Gerard Plourde
1/20/2016 04:11:20 pm

You're of course to the document of the Bishop of Troyes which declared the Shroud a forgery ("cunningly executed" I think was the term used) shortly after it was displayed for the first time in the 14th Century.


While this verdict could be the true one, the mystery remains how it was done. Modern experiments to replicate the process have thus far not produced satisfactory results.

V
1/21/2016 01:42:05 pm

Time Machine, please provide a link to the alleged memorandum if you want it considered.

Reply
Gerard Plourde
1/21/2016 02:06:15 pm

The memorandum to which Time Machine most probably refers is one produced in late 1389 by Pierre D'Arcis, Bishop of Troyes to Clement VII. A copy resides in the Bibliothéque Nationale, Paris. There is an English translation made in 1903 by Rev. Herbert Thurston which originally appeared in a periodical called The Month but was republished in an appendix to The Shroud f Turin by Ian Wilson (Image Books 1978).

Gerard Plourde
1/21/2016 03:25:04 pm

DaveR,

I actually wasn't thinking that you were. I was thinking more in terms of the article to which Jason referred in his post.

Reply
anon
1/20/2016 12:45:03 pm

dragons. how come there are western and eastern dragons ? can't think of any american dragons, but dragons stretch from wales to china. do dragon tales all come from the same place ?

Reply
Clint Knapp
1/20/2016 02:39:43 pm

Some might argue there are American dragons, of a sort.

Quetzalcoatl, the Feathered Serpent, should be a fair approximation to start with. With him, at least, we do see a bit of ancestral translation as feathered serpent deities get passed around most of the Mesoamerican cultures in some form or another.

Then there's the question of the so-called "Piasa Bird". The wings on the recreated version of the cliff painting outside of Alton, Illinois were not original to the description given by Jacques Marquette, but their addition has turned a creature most likely meant to describe Underwater Panther (a Missisippian lizard/cat monster with a tail of sharp copper). Not quite the "dragon" it's promoted as these days, but in it's loosest form the word dragon could describe any fantastic lizard-thing.

Reply
Clint Knapp
1/20/2016 02:44:13 pm

Proofread yourself, Clint...

Should read: "has turned a creature most likely meant to describe Underwater Panther (blahblah, parentheticals, blahblah) into everything from a dragon to a Thunderbird."

For that matter, we could add Thunderbird to the list, but should note the irony of calling Underwater Panther a "bird" as Underwater Panther and Thunderbird were considered opposing forces. But hey, it's good enough for George Noory!

anon
1/21/2016 12:11:40 pm

some's got wings and some's 'asn't. mebbes these is dragons of diff'rent origin

anon
1/21/2016 02:56:22 pm

what about all the places it says "here be dragons" ? prolly need to add some ocean territories and island chains for a complete analysis

Andrew M
1/21/2016 09:14:49 am

The east and west where not as isolated as from each other as people commonly think. even if two cultures did not have direct contact they likely did second or third hand. the northern Europeans had contact with Mediterranean cultures who had contact with eastern cultures like India who had contact with most other eastern cultures.

Reply
Gerard Plourde
1/21/2016 11:50:27 am

Your point is quite valid. At the same time it makes the claim for a single prehistoric origin for myths and fairy tales harder to prove and logically less likely.

DaveR
1/21/2016 12:25:19 pm

It's not a difficult leap to imagine a trader saying something like "While I was trading with this other tribe they all told me of this fantastic beast that lived in a mountain cave. They also told me this creature flew through the air and could spit fire. The beast was similar to a lizard with gigantic bat wings, and when it roared the ground shook!"

V
1/21/2016 02:48:28 pm

DaveR, that would be more plausible as a "universal" origin of dragons if Asian dragons 1. had wings or 2. breathed fire. Asian dragons are associated with winter, water, ice, storms, etc. and with wisdom rather than treasure. European dragons are associated with fire, stone, no season or weather at all, death, destruction, and wealth and SOMETIMES knowledge (but not necessarily wisdom). I don't even really know with the feathered-snake motif, and I'm not sure if there's anything remotely similar in African mythology.

That argues for ENTIRELY different origins of these creatures. It does not, however, preclude several unique bronze-age origins for creatures and tales in various societies. Just not a UNIVERSAL source.

As for the analysis of tales, well, linguists have inferred the existence of a primary document many times before through specific similarities. I see no reason why they couldn't use the same analysis on fairytales to infer a specific origin on some of them, too. Some of them undoubtedly DO grow out of bronze-age tales. Since fairytales usually have some sort of lesson involved in them, and some experiences are human rather than based in time or culture, some of them almost definitely date back to various Bronze Age societies.

It's the concept that there is one single source for any given fairytale that I choke on. Even a fairytale written by a modern author and published today would show clear evidence of older sources, because that's how storytelling WORKS, after all.

DaveR
1/21/2016 03:00:38 pm

I am in no way advocating there is one single source of all fairy tales. What I am advocating is that it's not difficult at all, given trade between cultures, even the Vikings were trading throughout Russia and Turkey, that stories and myths could be shared between cultures and then over the course of being told numerous times be infused with local ideas. Therefor a culture with a wingless dragon can easily be transformed into winged dragon thousands of miles away.

DaveR
1/20/2016 12:45:24 pm

I see, thank you for clarifying this for me, I know understand your previous post more clearly.

Reply
Kal
1/20/2016 12:46:09 pm

The sword is clearly a reproduction.

The Shroud was clearly painted. They found the markings of various pigment dyes as well as c14 dating on that thing. Someone made it to be a holy relic.

Reply
J(azzy Jeff) H. Pulitzer
1/20/2016 03:41:09 pm

Bored with the sword
Now I'm floored.
Showed it to the boys
And I scored!
A forensic rock hard,
Historic "en guard"
To all the ivory tower
Academics.
Holding power,
over zealots.
My bulging credentials
Are indisputable!
But all the skeptic haters
Are irrefutable.
My paycheck now will not be scored,
My arguments now are all abhorred.
So now I'm bored with the sword.

*drops mic*
*walks off stage*
*crowd vomits*



Reply
titus pullo
1/20/2016 04:08:13 pm

Europeans and later "Americans" have been on North America for over 500 years now and the ONLY documented evidence of pre columbian contact is the Norse in the Greenland, the high arctic and NewFoundland (and a norse penny in Maine). That's it folks. 500 years and no roman ship or carthagian or templar ship has been found, no buildings, no settlements, no anything.

What is more interesting is how myths originated and spread in Europe in prehistory. The indo-european cultures/peoples that spread from India to Scotland..who where they and how did their stories and cultures get told and retold before recorded history. Now that is worth a TV show. I remember some Brit pushing a theory that the Iliad was really set in England around the tin mine "wars" during the bronze age. Now that was interesting.

Reply
Hans Atheist Andersen
1/20/2016 05:23:59 pm

Fairy stories are thousands of years old. And Romans are thousands of years old. And fairy stories are found in America. This proves that the stories must have been brought over by the Romans. Probably on the visit when they were dropping their tourist trinket swords all over the place. Has anybody checked the swords for fairy stories scratched on them in runic characters? For that matter, has anyone DNA tested them to see if they could be the murder weapons used in the killings described on the KRS? Oak Island and California would be ideal places to discard the evidence, being hundreds of miles away.

Reply
Gerard Plourde
1/20/2016 06:09:44 pm

While we're at it, couldn't those swords be proof of the final battle between the Lamanites and the Nephites at the Hill Cumorah? Did anyone crack to see if the inscription on the KRS isn't actually Reformed Egyptian rather than runes?

Wait, I've got it. Scott Wolter and J. Hutton Pulitzer have it backwards. The Nephihtes and Lamanites actually sailed back to Palestine disguised as Knights Templar and brought back the treasures of the Temple to Oak Island. One of the Nephites picked up the sword as a souvenir but it fell overboard when they were offloading the Ark of the Covenenant en route to the Money Pit before they were all whisked away to the Planet Kolob.

Reply
titus pullo
1/21/2016 12:58:02 pm

Now given I grew up a short distance from Hill Cumorah I would have found some relics in the woods near Palmyra. Never did. But they do have a really nice pageant every summer.

Jerry
1/20/2016 07:57:57 pm

Jason, I enjoy your site. I know you dont want to, but I think it would be great if you would cover episodes of Oak Island regularly.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
1/20/2016 10:00:51 pm

I would if it weren't so boring. I feel like one could review the whole season in an hour just by watching the last 5 min. of each episode.

Reply
Rose McDonald
1/29/2016 01:04:32 am

You could probably do the same just by watching the commercials.

Tony
1/22/2016 11:35:25 am

"J. Hutton Pulitzer took a different path, and in postings on Facebook last night he suggested that the chemist’s slightly nervous demeanor while being filmed indicated potential fraud."

A clear case of attacking the messenger, or in this case the metallurgist.

Reply
Michael Hansen
1/22/2016 04:00:58 pm

What I find surprising is that Hutton Pulitzer who had direct contact with the cast of Oak Island for quite some time, only found out about the sword test results from watching the show.

I have followed Hutton for some time now. So far there is the book he got a load of pre-orders for nearly a year ago, the stone which was allegedly found and was allegedly decoded by a few north african universities and is being saved for a documentary apparently, and now the sword and the alleged verifying test results and white paper.

But the thing that is in common with these, is that nothing significant has actually been released.

Hutton apparently declined to go on the 3rd season of the show. They wont even show any footage of him in now in archive footage, let alone refer to him by name. Which is odd, as they refer to others who have been on the show. He must have really pissed them off.

Reply
Artifax
1/25/2016 02:00:35 pm

Say what you want about the Lagina brothers and their search on Oak Island. At least they are actually in search of truth, rather than interested in distorting it for money with ridiculous claims like Hutton. What has the "Treasure Commander" ever found of validated value/significance?

Reply
DaveR
1/28/2016 12:47:52 pm

They're in search of the suspected treasure buried in the Money Pit. Having found no treasure thus far, they managed to sell their story for a reality show. They are most certainly in this for the money.

Kal
1/22/2016 08:57:37 pm

I suspect they edited the analyst's speech and it said "this is definitely not authentic" originally, and they removed "not".

Reply
Michael Hansen
1/23/2016 09:37:00 am

The magical 'Roman' sword has become to cuecat of the historical era.

Reply

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