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PBS: Chachapoya of Peru Are Probably Carthaginians and Celts Who Fled from Rome in 146 BCE

4/4/2014

112 Comments

 
Holy crap! PBS has become America Unearthed. In an episode of the PBS series Secrets of the Dead running on local PBS stations this week and available online for streaming, the venerable public broadcasting channel asserts that blonde-haired, blue-eyed Celts and also some incidental Carthaginians discovered the Americas in Antiquity. (The blue eyes don’t make the show but show up on the show’s web page.) “Carthage’s Lost Warriors” was produced by ZDF, a German television production company associated with the long-running series Terra-X, which traffics in all manner of fringe theories, and the large number of dubbed German interviews testifies to the recycling of a German program. Archaeologist K. Krist Hurst called the show “baloney.”
The show opens with a “Celtic-style bronze axed” found “deep in the Amazon” and the narrator, Jay O. Sanders, asks if—heaven help us!—the Chachapoya are truly the blond, Caucasian descendants of prehistoric superhero warriors (martial prowess specified explicitly) who crossed the Atlantic at some unspecified date to penetrate the continent with their manly thrusts until they fertilized Peru with the glory of Old World culture.

The program is based on the work of the show’s chief expert, Hans Giffhorn, a professor emeritus of cultural studies at the Universities of Göttingen and Hildesheim and documentary filmmaker. Griffhorn’s dissertation on aesthetics outlined his belief that science is dogmatic and rigid and excludes evidence and theories that fail to conform to paradigms, and that a lack of cross-disciplinary interaction has led to erroneous findings and conclusions.

Griffhorn wrote a German book, still untranslated, on his belief that the Chachapoya are white Europeans in 2013.He believes that the Carthaginians did not “simply vanish” after the Carthaginians were defeated by the Romans in 146 BCE, and he refuses to believe Roman accounts that the city’s population was enslaved or killed under Scipio Aemilianus. He wants to know where they went. To find the Carthaginians—and here he is looking for just one boatload—he starts at the Balearic Islands, where Carthage found its fiercest soldiers. Giffhorn feels that the Carthaginians were not enslaved in their entirety, so for him it is only logical that they fled to Kuelap, the Chachapoya fortress in Peru. He believes that in the western Mediterranean the Carthaginian exiles teamed up with Celtic people from Iberia to escape the Romans, who were also taking over the Carthaginian territories of what is today Spain.

Celtic prowess combined with Carthaginian sailing skills to cross the Atlantic.

Griffhorn believes the Diodorus Siculus proves that the Carthaginians reached the Americas. Diodorus (Library of History 5.19-20) first describes an island, not a continent, “over against Libya”—meaning off the African coast—and states that it contains stately towns and fruitful plains when the Phoenicians discovered it:
The Phoenicians therefore, upon the account before related, having found out the coasts beyond the pillars, and sailing along by the shore of Africa, were on a sudden driven by a furious storm afar off into the main ocean; and after they had lain under this violent tempest for many days, they at length arrived at this island; and so, coming to the knowledge of the nature and pleasantness of this isle, they caused it to be known to everyone; and therefore the Tyrrhenians, when they were masters at sea, designed to send a colony thither; but the Carthaginians opposed them, both fearing lest most of their own citizens should be allured through the goodness of the island to settle there, and likewise intending to keep it as a place of refuge for themselves, in case of any sudden and unexpected blasts of fortune, which might tend to the utter ruin of their government: for, being then potent at sea, they doubted not but they could easily transport themselves and their families into that island unknown to the conquerors. (trans. G. Booth)
He, of course, leaves out the information Diodorus—and, crucially, pseudo-Aristotle three centuries earlier, unacknowledged here—gave about the location of this mysterious island, which regular readers will of course remember quite well from when these same texts were used by Harry Hubbard to claim ancient knowledge of North America, and also from America Unearthed, when Mark McMenamin used the same text from Diodorus to claim that the Phoenicians, not the Carthaginians, discovered America.

Pseudo-Aristotle (De mirabilis auscultationibus 84) writes that:
In the sea outside the Pillars of Hercules they say that an island was discovered by the Carthaginians, desolate, having wood of every kind, and navigable rivers, and admirable for its fruits besides, but distant several days’ voyage from them. But, when the Carthaginians often came to this island because of its fertility, and some even dwelt there, the magistrates of the Carthaginians gave notice that they would punish with death those who should sail to it, and destroyed all the inhabitants, lest they should spread a report about it, or a large number might gather together to the island in their time, get possession of the authority, and destroy the prosperity of the Carthaginians. (trans. Launcelot D. Dowdall)
This land was in frequent contact with Carthage before 300 BCE—not a one-time chance encounter in 146 BCE—and was only a few days’ sail from the Pillars. Brazil is about ninety days’ sail from the Pillars, according to the show’s own estimate. It’s a bit of a difference between three months and a few days.

Griffhorn suggests from such texts that the Carthaginians had had secret communication with Brazil but kept it secret. This seems rather odd considering that the Carthaginians put up in the public square a commemoration of the voyage of Hanno to central Africa, where he saw chimpanzees. Surely they would have kept that secret, too, had that been their typical practice, as Griffhorn suggests.

At this point, the Carthaginians virtually vanish from the show because they were needed solely to give the Celts something they lack—ships—for Griffhorn’s real thesis, that the Celts are the ancestors of the Chachapoya and once reigned over South America.

The program tries to make the case that a boat could have crossed to Brazil using the ocean currents. Griffhorn places the discovery of Brazil by the Carthaginians and Celts at “1500 years before Columbus,” which would be about 10 BCE, long after the fall of Carthage. This makes no sense since Diodorus wrote between two and five decades earlier and pseudo-Aristotle three centuries before that—and both claimed the story reported much older events.

Griffhorn believes that the Carthaginian boat pilots traded with local cannibals (with what?) to survive, and Griffhorn believes that four symbols on the ancient petroglyphs on the rock of Ingá in Brazil aren’t just coincidentally close to geometrical shapes used in Celtiberian alphabets but are actual Celtic letters. Apparently the Carthaginian merchants were the merchant class serving the Celtic warrior elite.

Based on no evidence whatsoever, Griffhorn suggests that the Carthaginians and Celts on this voyage of discovery sailed up the Amazon. “No account exists, and we can only imagine” what they did, the narrator says, substituting early Spanish and Portuguese accounts to give an idea of what the Carthaginians “would have” seen and done. So, to recap: Everyone admits that no evidence exists, but they will nevertheless reconstruct an entire adventure based on analogies.

The narrator suggests that brightly-colored vases with geometric patterns made by the Marajoara culture of Brazil are “reminiscent” of Greek vases from the Classical period, decorated with Celtic spirals. This is a subjective judgment, and to my eyes the pots look nothing like the form of actual Greek vases, nor do the decorations bear more than a superficial resemblance to Old World patterns—no more so than any other Native geometric art. Geometric shapes tend to be the same everywhere. The trouble is that the Marajoara culture flourished after 800 CE, far too late to have anything to do with Mediterranean Greek vases from 1,000 years earlier.

We return to the metal axe from the opening that the show calls Celtic. It has no provenance, and was purchased from a merchant who said he found it in the jungle. The metal part of the axe is copper-zinc bronze, meaning that it was from the Old World, but the handle was made of Paraguayan wood. According to tests that the show says were run on the axe, the wood is 1500 years old. The most parsimonious explanation is that a Spanish, Portuguese, or African object was added to a sacred and ancient handle during the Contact period, but instead the show wants us to believe that Celts from 146 BCE dropped it en route to Peru where it was reused in 500 CE.

This brings us to the Chachapoya, and the show demands to know how mere Native people could possibly have learned how to build buildings, particularly round ones, without European help. Prof. Warren Church explains that the Chachapoya were quite able to build their own buildings, of which none date earlier than 500 CE. Griffhorn, however, sees the round buildings as unique in America and therefore of obviously Carthaginian extraction—700 years or more after the fact! He points to a carving of a face on a temple wall and says this is reminiscent of Celtic beheadings, as though no one else on earth ever drew faces or beheaded enemies. He also cites trepanation among the Celts and Chachapoya as another “connection.” Michael Schultz, a paleopathologist, makes an astonishing claim: that “Hippocratic accounts” from 500 BCE describe Chachapoyan trepanation! This is entirely untrue, and I have no idea where he got the idea that the Chachapoya were discussed in Greek literature.

Griffhorn believes that Spanish fortresses that are round must be connected to the Chachapoya’s round houses, even though this is about all they share in common. The show picks out painted images of shamans with antlers in both the Amazon and among the Celts and decides this must be a connection—even though, unacknowledged here, art from Mohenjo-Daro shows the same thing, as, in fact, does shamanic art everywhere, going back to the Stone Age.

This is really going nowhere fast.

Schultz returns again to assert that pre-Contact Chachapoya mummies suffered from tuberculosis, a disease previously thought only to have come with the Spanish. This “new” fact, however, has been known since 2002, and the presence of tuberculosis in the pre-Columbian Americas has been known since 1994—it’s been found beyond just the Chachapoya—but Griffhorn takes this as a revelation that the Carthaginians brought “Classical” tuberculosis (whatever that means—he seems to think the disease was different in Antiquity) with them in 146 BCE, where it lay dormant for a thousand years. Archaeologists suggest that the disease arose from llamas, who are known to carry the bovine form of tuberculosis—or even from the Polynesians who reached South America before Columbus.

Next, various Chachapoyan traits are compared to Spanish, Majorcan, and other cultures from various time periods, as though the Chachapoyans simply adopted one trait from each of the ark of cross-cultural European outcasts from multiple time periods who sailed up the Amazon to meet them.

The show points to the fair-skinned, blonde-haired Chachapoyan descendants as evidence that that some Chachapoyans are “distinctive” from the “dark haired” and “brown-skinned” Natives, and we hear what Cieza de Leon had to say about this, though the paraphrase offered by Warren Church sounds to me like he’s running together bits and pieces from both Cieza de Leon and from Pedro Pizarro, who famously wrote:
The Indian women of the Guancas and Chachapoyas and Cañares were the common women, most of them being beautiful. The rest of the womanhood of this kingdom were thick, neither beautiful nor ugly, but of medium good-looks. The people of this kingdom of Peru were white, swarthy in colour, and among them the Lords and Ladies were whiter than Spaniards. I saw in this land an Indian woman and a child who would not stand out among white blonds. These people [of the upper class] say that they were the children of the idols. (Relation of the Discoveries etc., trans. Philip Ainsworth Means, p. 430)
By contrast, Cieza de Leon (Chronicle of Peru 1.78) was rather less expansive on the particulars:
These Indians of Chachapoyas are the most fair and good-looking of any that I have seen in the Indies, and their women are so beautiful that many of them were worthy to be wives of the Yncas, or inmates of the temples of the sun. To this day the Indian women of this race are exceedingly beautiful, for they are fair and well formed. They go dressed in woollen cloths, like their husbands, and on their heads they wear a certain fringe, the sign by which they may be known in all parts. After they were subjugated by the Yncas, they received the laws and customs according to which they lived, from them. They adored the sun and other gods, like the rest of the Indians, and resembled them in other customs, such as the burial of their dead and conversing with the devil. (trans. Clements Markham)
Rather than put this down to indigenous genetic diversity (which the show briefly acknowledges as possible), the show suggests that this is due to Old World contact. The Carthaginians not being known to be blondes, I guess this is why Griffhorn proposes Celts, whose presumed red hair he wants to equate with reports of fair hair. German geneticist Manfred Kayser tests some Chachapoya hair and finds that the living individuals have some European ancestry tracing back to the Celtic areas of northern Spain, but at this point—500 years after Contact—it’s not possible to determine when the genes mixed. The homeland of the Celtic people Griffhorn fingers is the same as that of the Spanish who traveled to Peru in the 1500s; the Celts didn’t simply vanish after the Roman conquest of Spain (218 BCE to 19 BCE) but contributed to the gene pool of medieval and modern Spain, though the language and culture died out around the fifth century CE. No ancient Chachapoyan mummies were tested, which is a major omission.

The show concludes that there is no “smoking gun,” only suggestive indications that the Chachapoya are not really Native Americans on the same stripe as the brown ones but owe their culture, their art, their religion, and their very genes to a boatload of Carthaginians and Celts who sailed up the Amazon in 146 BCE and, by dint of their superior European prowess, took over to such an extent that their potent DNA still rules the region 1,868 years later, largely undiluted by the intervening centuries.

I guess this means that they’re all inbred, but the show doesn’t go there.

This was really terrible, and the only significant difference between this show and America Unearthed in terms of quality of evidence and the desire to find hidden white people in the Americas is that this show searched South America rather than North America, and its hero never claimed that there was a conspiracy trying to suppress his work.

112 Comments
J.A.D
4/4/2014 03:41:09 am

yes, Jason, yes...
SW is middlebrow.
this was PBS!!!!!!

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sandra P link
6/24/2015 10:56:01 am

During the late 1960s, Emilio Estrada from Ecuador and Betty Meggers and Clifford Evans, both Smithsonian archaeologists, suggested, after excavating at Valdivia, Ecuador, that the pottery at Valdivia resembled the techniques and motifs of decoration of the Jomon pottery of Japan. Everyone thought this was unbelievable too UNTIL a genetic study of native South Americans was conducted. It turns out that Asian genes had been introduced into South America sometime after 6,000 ybp at the same time the Jomon culture was active in Japan. The results of the genetic study were published in PLOS Genetics.

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Joe
12/29/2015 12:23:01 am

My wife is from Chachapoyas. I didn't believe her until we went to meet her family. But they were all blond haired grey eyed people just like her with B blood type. DNA says American Indian....

M.A Kettendorf
6/9/2018 03:32:28 am

What a waste of time and space. This rebut is so flat of fact and bias and biased ! ? more than that!, it is very hard to read. It sounds like - Dennis the Mennis , crying that his cookie is to sweet, and throwing it in the road.For centuries White humans have been repulsed that kin had gone all the way over to the Wild land They try to high the real early history, as best they can.
In fifth grade do you think they say,We proudly killed five to ten million innocent people, to steal their gold. Those beautiful buildings to venerate the church and peace; are actually the opposite. praying to peace loving God surrounded by the bootie, that cost 22 innocent, million people their lives
Spain never said they were sorry US "Indians never ask for anything. Yet, I know of a higher power, who keeps saying, "What with the First Rule, can't they understand. Second , I do not want money, I have no bank... with all the money those Christians are giving to devil funds, you could really help other people. Your self as a child of God and then to others Pray together with each other and the answers will come..r and then branch out are giving to those Ch.. God does not need 58 dollars or a new jet, he needs your love and faith , thank you

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Ryn
7/15/2018 01:35:13 pm

I think it is totally arrogant to assume that Europeans have a monopoly on morality or that architecture could only be representative of a single concept. I think the assertion that round houses and a geometric patterns could only be fathomed by celts is a classic Eurocentric bias. It interfered with crediting great civilizations as a product of convergent evolution instead of Europeans bestowing their superior skills to less civilized societies. The discovery of the quipu which is a series of string and knots, is revealing its self more and more as the likely archival language system of the Chachapoya. It has little relation to anything remotely European. If these settlements were actually from European settlers why would the go through the trouble of developing a entirely new language system?
I guess its not impossible but the amount of evidence makes it largely conjecture the way that crediting the aliens with the Pyramids or the Great Zimbabwe with the return of ancient Iberians just points to the inability of Europeans to except that other continents are as capable of great societies.
This anthropologist is doing exactly the opposite of the scientific method, which is force inconclusive evidence to fit a hypothesis he wants to be true and ignoring all the evidence that contradicts it.
round houses don't = morality
morality isn't exclusive = christians or belief in god

Ernest Terry
11/18/2020 07:38:47 pm

The DNA of the secluded and remote people and descendants of the Chachapoya have turned out to be approx 15% Celtic Northern European. Many kids in this remote area surprise, surprise have light skin, eyes and blonde and even red hair. I know giving ancient people credit for monumental tasks is tough but they were tough. Tougher than us for sure and even though they didn’t have iPhones they were just as intelligent.

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Hans Giffhorn
11/19/2020 10:31:10 am

Hi Ernest,
an interesting hint. Where did you read the information about the DNA-results?

Tahnks ind advance
Hans
(giffhorn@t-online.de)

James
12/6/2020 04:48:50 pm

Based on what study? You didn't link it so it sounds like you just make stuff up. But, let's take your claim at face value knowing what is actually true. Peru is a Westernized nation speaking a European language (Spanish) with dozens of indigenous dialects that are also spoken. It is also accepted that a large portion of Peru's population have European ancestry going back 500 years, most notably from the Iberian peninsula. Also, there are no genetics for "Celtic Northern European" so there's another assertion you fail to provide proof of. The modern day people descended from Chachapoyans are also not remote or secluded as they obviously speak the national language and have admixture of Spanish ancestry.

It was quite assumptive of the program's producers to single out the little blonde girl and the blonde woman as possible descendants of some blond "Celt Warrior" instead of probably having a European ancestor no older than a couple of centuries ago. If these people didn't mingle with the Conquistadors or any subsequent Peruvian nationals then that's 2,000 years of inbreeding which would result in a bevy of genetic diseases and maladies associated in inbreeding populations. The DNA sequencing conducted in this series didn't conclude that nor that the European DNA (again confirming Iberian origin) is 2,000 years old.

James
12/3/2020 12:07:45 am

I just watched this on Amazon Prime for the first time. Seeing the PBS label I figured it had some brevity in terms of scientific value, but then within the first 5 minutes I started to sense a tabloid narrative.

What's worse is that the "amateur" archaeologist is given precedence as the lead scientist of this theory which is based on conjecture and very subjective associations between Celtic symbols and indigenous pottery designs. There was even mention of Celtic alphabet which I've never heard before EVER.

What took the cake for me was the silly racialization of the mysterious blonde woman and girl in the Chapapoyan village/town. Has this professor never been to South America or other parts of the Americas in general where large mixed race populations exist? I also found their DNA analysis on the markers for blond hair and red hair rather superficial since it is possible to pin point WHEN the gene first shows up in both subject's genetic timeline.

Instead, they emphasized the northern Spanish region of Galicia which again could easily be directed at the Conquistadors from 500 years ago.

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Hans Giffhorn link
4/24/2022 04:50:31 am

If you want to know the truth about my argumentation, I recommend these links:
my website https://www.hansgiffhorn.com/
and the 37-minute YouTube video “Warriors from Spain in the Andes of Peru – over 2000 years ago” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYb0357mSgA

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WonderBoy
1/20/2023 10:08:47 am

Professor Giffhorn,

I've read your website and seen your documentary linked above. It is indeed far superior to the PBS production.

Mr. Colavito lacks imagination and is often overly-biased in his reviews non-orthodox theories. Skepticism is healthy, but he mostly just seems to like to make money off the backs of others doing far more interesting research. You're in good company.

I find your arguments compelling and mostly persuasive. I look forward to you someday getting to finish a more extensive DNA study.

It's a no-brainer hat people from the old world came to the new world before Columbus. Probably far more than we appreciate. Those who fight against this idea don't just lack imagination, they lack common sense and are locked into hubristic presentism.

Please keep up your good work and ignore the small-minded critics who only know how to criticize, but never produce anything of their own.

Thanks!

RAYFORD HENDERSON link
2/22/2023 03:39:49 pm

RATHER than a horde of Celts or Carthaginians, I would suggest a smaller number, for the simple reason that anytime a superior culture is introduced to one of a lesser nature the new ideas always win out and within a few generations completely overtake the old ways. This small group idea might account for the bull head axe, but it also accounts for the limited impact on Chachapoya technology. The genetics though make it impossible to ignore the fact these people were not like other native groups..

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Ryan
4/4/2014 03:42:55 am

Thanks for reviewing this, I watched it late Wednesday night after NOVA and was surprised by the show. It seemed like a slightly more detailed episode of AU but it was on PBS so I naturally put a little more weight on its arguments. It just seemed this lacked the depth of research that I usually expect from Secrets of the Dead (a show i watch whenever its on). It really is sad when a reputable source of information starts to lean towards the same fringe ideas that fuel H2.

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J.A.D
4/4/2014 03:59:04 am

Even though indeed i didst humour Dennis Stanford's
ideas, i really did not expect this at all out of PBS!!!
i am in total shock, even though I'm Irish enough to
think that Saint Brendan once went places happily!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan I can now opine
O Tempores, O mores! PBS often is not middlebrow.

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Erik G
4/4/2014 05:12:59 am

It's always been my understanding that the description "fair" in old texts -- possibly even up to the late 19th and early 20th centuries -- meant "pleasing to the eye" or similar and had very little to do with hair color. Or am I mistaken? And does "swarthy" mean "dark-haired" or "dark-skinned"? The Spaniards and Portuguese and other Mediterranean peoples 500 years ago were in all likelihood mostly brown- or olive-skinned and dark-haired but still considered themselves "white" (if they ever did bother to consider such a thing), yet there were blonds among them as art from the period shows. There are blond-haired blue-eyed people in India today, even in the "darker" south, perhaps a legacy of the Raj but also possibly dating from the Mughul invasions. Blond or red hair is not necessarily a European trait.

I seem to remember that the Carthaginians tended to use mercenary forces and allies such as Mauretanians and Iberians, not national armies, and that likewise that the Celt-Iberian clans did not necessarily love the Carthaginians, so it's highly unlikely any would have been so pro-Carthaginian as to have fled Spain after Carthage's final defeat to escape the Romans. After the close of the later Celt-Iberian wars against Rome and the easing of Roman exploitation, the Iberians seem to have settled quite happily into the later Republic and Empire.

The Carthaginians used galleys -- and galleys would not have been able to survive the storms and swells of the open Atlantic. Maybe a Carthaginian vessel could have been swept across to Brazil or thereabouts in a storm, but this would have been relatively rare, and it's unlikely any survivors ever recrossed the Atlantic. When will the "experts" on so-called early European forays to the Americas realize that their ships just couldn't do it. Even Columbus and those who followed had a tough time getting there,

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Pacal
4/4/2014 06:42:50 am

Well the Carthaginians did have merchant ships that were not galleys and thus far more capable of ocean travel. Further it appears that Phoenician ships did sail around Africa at the bequest of King Necho of Egypt sailing down the Red sea and around Africa to return to Egypt through the straits of Gibraltar c. 600 B.C.E. So long voyages were engaged in by the Phoenicians.

None of this makes a voyage to the New World much more likely. Given that the voyage around Africa was coast hugging it appears and that Phoenician merchant ships would still have had problems voyaging across immense stretches of ocean, albeit much fewer than galleys. And of course the singular lack of evidence for such contact.

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Erik G
4/4/2014 10:50:16 am

Thanks for that, Pacal. I quite agree. I understand that even in the Mediterranean, ships tended to stay within sight of land if at all possible. But I believe that Carthaginian merchant ships were also galleys of a kind -- rowers were always essential in the days before Arabian dhows. This meant that there had to be a big crew complement (a double shift of rowers, at least), which needed large stocks of food and water -- hence another reason to stay close to land, as galleys did not have much space to spare. Certainly there would have been no room for sufficient quantities of food and water necessary for a transatlantic voyage.

The later Viking longships were a different matter -- they were a revolutionary design, capable of both riverine and oceanic navigation -- but even they could not sail for days on end without landing to restock on water and supplies. Collecting rain would ease the problem, which might be one of the reasons the Norse took the (stormy) Northern routes to "Vinland", but nevertheless they still island-hopped on the way. There are many today who think that the Anglo-Saxons invaded England by coming across the North Sea in Viking-type longships. They didn't -- they used rowboats, possibly not much larger than modern cutters. Which brings us back to the Roman period when the invasions began (the "Saxon Shore" which the Romans were hard put to defend, even with their navy) and closer to the Carthaginian Wars. If that was the case then, the chances of Carthaginians even thinking of heading out west through the Pillars of Hercules and across the ocean must be close to zero.

Michael Abraham
8/29/2022 12:23:17 pm

These arguments haven't held up to the test of time:

https://www.sail-world.com/USA/Phoenicia---theyve-reached-South-Africa/65931

https://www.middleeasteye.net/discover/who-reached-america-first-columbus-or-phoenicians

https://www.sail-world.com/USA/Phoenicia-is-back--now-to-cross-the-Atlantic/-107281?source=google

(it arrived in Ft Lauderdale in Ft Lauderdale - no rowers required)


Alice Kehoe
4/5/2014 01:06:10 pm

Carthaginians would have used galleys for their navy, but they also had broader merchant ships that could have sailed the Atlantic. Anything that floats has crossed the oceans, see Guinness Book of Records for astonishing verified crossings.

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NKent805
2/9/2020 04:42:04 pm

Another instance of White European colonialist myth making, and Native American achievement appropriation! The facts are the Carthaginians, Kelts, Romans and all the rest of the usual suspects had no ability to cross the ocean with the boats they had at the time. For the amount of years people have been trying to steal the achievements and civilizations of the Native people of the Americas, they still have no proof. Just a bunch of wishful fantasies. I know the NA monumental architecture, Pyramid temples, art, spear points, even their genetic and identity is appropriated for Europeans and their own nationalistic agendas. While too bad! Native American civilizations arose in situ because they were the only race of people to obtain such high level of civilization on their own in complete isolation. So they didn’t need to borrow from Egyptians, Moors, Chinese, Mesopotamia, Sumeria, or India. They way that The Greeks, Romans, Kelts, Anglo Saxons, The Vikings, ect did. White Euros need to stop coveting what the Native American civilizations achieved on their own. It’s kind of gross when whites feel the need to appropriate something that has to ties to them in anyway whatsoever. I think it’s one of their major flaws in their psyche, knowing that there is two continents that are unequivocally non-European civilizations , knowing they had no influence in the pre-European America’s. A place that is now possessed so thoroughly by European theft , and they have no deep history or ties to the lands they colonized!

Pacal
4/4/2014 06:53:50 am

Isn't it just amazing what these Celtic / Carthaginian settlers failed to bring over.

Lets see They failed to bring over wheat, barley i.e., any old world crops. How remarkable for settlers to do. They quite forgot to bring any ironing working techniques at all. Very strange for such heavy into iron tools, weapons cultures like the Celts and Carthaginians. They also left behind all their old world animals, along with the bow, which arrived in, or was independently invented in, South America much later.

And of course we get the same old tired variation of the "white gods" mythology. Because it is just a matter of course that these "Europeans" would dominate the locals. I'm surprised they didn't talk about "bearded white gods", and repeat the nonsense that Indians can't grow beards so ergo all depictions in pre-Columbian art of men with beards must be of Europeans or other old world people. So utterly tiresome.

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Mandalore
4/4/2014 07:51:33 am

No doubt some Carthaginians survived the Roman attack in 146 BC; especially those in the surrounding countryside who weren't in the city when it fell or escaped in the chaos. Why would they go anywhere after that? Plus, if Carthaginians felt the need to flee the Old World when Rome took their city in 146, why not the Corinthians, whose city also fell that year with it's people killed/enslaved? Why not the people of Tyre, who founded Carthage, when Alexander took their city in the 320's?

It is ridiculous how people so selectively accept and reject the sources to fit what they have already decided.

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Jason Colavito link
4/4/2014 07:53:45 am

Isn't it interesting how closely Griffhorn's hypothesis resembles the fall of the Third Reich, with the blond Aryans shooting off in secret for Argentina?

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The Other J.
4/11/2014 04:22:30 pm

The Boys from Brazil, and the Lads from Laguna de los Condores.

WonderBoy
1/20/2023 10:10:41 am

You're really insinuating that he's a racist Nazi?

You really have jumped the shark.

Pathetic.

Decimus
4/4/2014 08:16:31 am

Or if you were a Carthaginian who was not in Carthage, why not flee to, say, Leptis Magna or Oea? Phoenician cities that were quite near by, and whose inhabitants were not enslaved? One would assume Carthaginian refugees would want to seek out relatives or friendly business associates, not flee to conquer some distant land.

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J.A.D
4/4/2014 01:43:47 pm

Julius Caesar had yet to notice Gaul is divided in three.
Cornwall had tin mines. We know Carthage had trading
partners in the North Atlantic. They could have gone to
Egypt or any state that could be Rome's rival, but they
had to flee early before the siege. PBS often is not at all
highly speculative. Yes, it went AMERICA UNEARTHED!

Mandalore
4/4/2014 11:04:46 am

The Nazis in Argentina is something I hadn't thought of, but the parallels are clearly there. I wonder how aware Griffhorn is of that.

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J.A.D
4/4/2014 02:25:14 pm

http://archaeology.about.com/od/alternative/fl/Secrets-of-the-Dead-Carthages-Lost-Warriors-review.htm

He's born in 1942, the Berlin Airlift happens in 1949, his family
would have solid memories of the war but he'd only remember
the four zones. It may be more of an esoteric question, but its
a fair one to ask! There is a blog that makes no absurd or very
exaggerated claims, where the author tracks down tall tales and
monster sightings, we in the USA know Johnny Appleseed is a
real person but Paul Bunyan is a modern myth abundant with a
strong dollop of hyperbole. The odds are against the transit that
PBS thinks Hannibal Barca's near kin could have made in the
generation after his death, but its easier to go to Patagonia from
the tip of Brazil rather than beyond Iquitos, Peru as one goes up river... a Pre-Columbian voyage or two may have happened but
Magellan's route is that much more improbable for them to attempt.



The tales about Patagonian Giants are a debate, the descriptions
are floridly creative, the imaginary creatures are abundant in the
lore, yes. After the war, a more modern era 'curious critter' fled to
Juan Peron's Argentina, indeed. Before our entry into the war, the
opening scenes in the movie CASABLANCA are about an earlier
exodus. The tall tales about the "Big Foot" tribe on the tip of S.A
predate the 20th Century, but can be seized on by the semi-literate.

http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/pacific/magellan-strait/patgonian-giants.html

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/patagonia.html

http://patagoniamonsters.blogspot.com/

http://patagoniamonsters.blogspot.com/2014/04/more-on-caaigua-wild-men.html

http://patagoniamonsters.blogspot.com/2012/08/more-evidence-on-prehispanic-patagonian.html

http://patagoniamonsters.blogspot.com/2009/11/patagon-giants-part-1.html

J.A.D
4/4/2014 02:47:10 pm

Were he just a decade older, the "Hitler Youth" question is a
legitimate one to now ask. He is born as the Third Reich is at
its territorial apex. He is tottling & walking about as it falls...
His early education happens as Konrad Adenauer deals with
the issues of rebuilding that West Germany had. College and
the counter-culture arrive after the Beatles take America by
storm. EVD is Swiss, and older than him, given that he was
born in 1935, so this question hinges on what happened in
the 1950s and 1960s. I'm assuming H.G is living in the West,
not in the Soviet zone!!! We may think Post-War! Not earlier!

http://www.kas.de/wf/en/71.3717/

KIF
4/4/2014 09:20:23 am

Hans Giffhorn has also worked on documentaries for Arte, ZDF, ARD and GTZ

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A.D
4/4/2014 11:18:41 am

Another clear example of genuine racism and the medias power to spread misinformation.Wait for the racist shits to start using this as "evidence" for "aryans" being here first.Solutrean.kennewick,white hebrews,pleaidian nordic aliens,white ainu,and white gods, another one to add to the long list of attempts to genocide and erase native americans from the history books

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A.D.
4/4/2014 01:05:37 pm

Oh yeah I forgot lost He-boo alien from planet x and red haired giant bigfoot from atlantist/lemuria/5th dimension and on and on and on

LOL

You just can't help but laugh and get angry at the same time at all this crap.The clownish ideas from these clowns just get crazier and crazier.It makes you wonder if they were on some type of drug when they pulled this garbage out of their ass.

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Wolf
1/31/2022 05:36:54 am

Språket hör inte till en vetenskaplig debatt!!!

A.D.
4/4/2014 11:25:51 am

I sometimes wonder if these people who use media to spread this misinfo propaganda have ties to racist groups including the likes of eugenicist like rushton jensen and those other frauds.I am in no doubt onto this and hope it will be exposed in the near future

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A.D
4/4/2014 11:36:47 am

This is was deception..pfft typical

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A.D.
4/4/2014 05:08:34 pm

I watched the whole episode and the people they tested and showed are clearly mestizos.It is common to see light-hair-eyes and dark skin siblings in the same family I could also clearly see their amerindian features as well.This is typical in a mixed (amerinndian/european) population like mexicans.And as Kayser even stated they had both mixed ancestry.The lady said she had no direct spanish ancestry but she lived in an indigenous community.I don't but that.How much you bet native north american tribes have some indirect(past) admixture (sub saharan or european)after 500 years interaction ?Just look at the "cherokees".Hardly are there genome studies of modern native americans populations that have not had some interaction with non-amerindians in the last 500 years even if it's just 1-10%.Though there are some tribes who have remain pure and I have seen pics of these tribes that have brown/reddish hair and men with beards.


Genome-Wide Analysis in Brazilian Xavante Indians
Reveals Low Degree of Admixture Kuhn et al 2012

"Our results indicate that the Xavante is a
population that remained genetically isolated over the past decades and can offer advantages for genome-wide mapping
studies of inherited disorders."


This show was terrible...and very deceptive

And no dna study on the actual mummies....

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/1/post/2014/02/the-1960s-search-for-ancient-white-gods-in-the-americas.html

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A.D.
4/4/2014 11:47:25 am

I posted about this on your blog some time ago.Weird how they don't mention the dna studies done on the actual mummies,which I have cited before, and not the modern descendants of that area that have mixed with the spanish for the last 500 years.This is typical charlatanistic agendas and it's goal is to spread lies.The damage has been already though and that is the goal.

I still like secrets of the dead though.

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KIF
4/4/2014 12:11:36 pm

Is Hans Giffhorn a racist?

Would I be a racist if I formed a similar theory?

Beware of false conclusions - someone can argue all sorts of things without actually being racist

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A.D.
4/4/2014 12:57:30 pm

Yes it would make you a genuine racist and fraud like the rest of the pseudo/fake historian clowns.Same old tired racist garbage themes that's been rehashed over and over again.This is clearly an attack on native american history and identity that has continued for the last 500 years. This is tantamount to holocaust denial.
Culture vulture.'history distortionist/revisionist,usurper.fake,fraud.charlatan,take your pick.

J.A.D
4/4/2014 01:36:15 pm

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/featured/caveman-cold-case-about-this-episode/974/

This episode was both scientifically accurate and compelling.
It actually was one of their better episodes. I felt sorry for the
family that died about 50,ooo years ago! It was cutting edge...

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A.D.
4/4/2014 02:01:57 pm

I like the one they did on Egypt and the dna comparison they did on the old kingdom era pyramid builders.They compared the pyramid workers dna with the modern egyptians from all over egypt and found they were their direct descendants.It's a 3 part episodes titled "Secrets of the Pharaohs"

I try not to get involved in that area because of the american racial politics surounding it.I still remember the King Tut facial reconstruction and the american afrocentrist complaining that it looked too "white".Then the King Tut R1b hoax and the DNATribes that said King Tut and the Amarna mummies had str markers from the great lakes region from sub-sahara africa.Oh man that was crazy and still goes on in the youtube community and afrocentrist/eurocentris forums.You bet the new age freaks have tapped into that too.

Pacal
4/4/2014 12:10:52 pm

Erik G. Some, especially the larger sort of Phoenician merchant ships had oars and holes for use in rowing. But the main transportation method was sails and the wind. Further as mentioned above some Phoenician ships were entirely wind driven. these merchant ships were usually 60-100 feet in length and had small crews generally 20-40 men or less, In order to stuff has much merchandise on board as possible. It is generally thought that Phoenician merchant ships, especially, the smaller ones without oar holes would have been capable of across ocean travel. But they would have had a very hard time of it and has I mentioned there is no evidence that such a voyage to the New World ever happened.

Although it is true that Phoenician sailors "tended" to hug coastlines it is known that Phoenician ships did sail directly from Egypt to Crete and among the Greeks and the Romans such voyaging at least in the Meditterrian was not unknown. St Paul's voyages from Rhodes to Palestine were directly across open sea and so was his journey from Crete to Malta. I admit that such voyages do not compare with a voyage across the open Atlantic like what Columbus did, but the coast hugging attitudes of the Phoenicians and Greeks / Romans can be exaggerated.

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J.A.D
4/4/2014 01:51:25 pm

The trade winds are tricky, especially if one is the first
one to catch one in a given location. Carthaginians may
have mapped the star clusters of the southern heavens
more than 1500 years before Edmund Halley did from
St. Helena, but they could not peg the weather to a total
certainty, any delay cuts into supplies. You's almost need
a small fleet to have the supplies at mid-voyage the 3 month
excursion necessitates. The logistics are formidable, indeed.

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Austin Whittall's Blog is informative!!!
4/4/2014 03:12:20 pm


"Patagonia was discovered by the Portuguese explorer
Hernando de Magallanes – Magellan, who seeking a route
to the Asian Spice Islands sailed along its coast and
wintered in 1520 at a barren inlet that he named
San Julián – Saint Julian- (49°20’ S, 67°43’ W).

It was there, at San Julián, that the Europeans first met
the native Tehuelche and Magellan’s chronicler, Francesco
Antonio Pigafetta (1491-1535) immortalized them as the
gigantic “Patagons” in his 1525 book, Relazione Del Primo
Viaggio Intorno Al Mondo (Report on the First Voyage
around the World).

However Maximilianus Transylvanus wrote the first
Patagonian best seller. In 1522 he was the first to
interview the surviving members of Magellan’s
expedition (the first to navigate around the world)
and hastily published De Moluccis Insulis, which
became the first written account printed about Patagonia and
its hideous “Indians […] of very brave bodies, like giants”.[2]

Transylvanus’ and Pigafetta’s books instantly fixed
Patagonia in the minds of Europeans as the “regio gigantum”,
region of giants, and contemporary maps soon began
including illustrations of gigantic men towering over
dwarfish European explorers.

According to Pigafetta the first man that they saw at
the beach at San Julián, was of “gigantic stature”; “so tall
that we reached only to his waist”.[1]

Following Magellan’s orders, they captured a couple of
Patagons, needing nine men to topple one of them to the
ground; these unfortunate captives would later die at sea.[1]


[1] Pigafetta, A., (1899). Primer Viaje Alrededor del Mundo. Madrid. 1899. pp. 11+
[2] Fernández de Navarrete, M., [Ed.]. (1837). Colección de los viages y descubrimientos… Madrid: Imprenta Nacional. v.4. pp. 257.
[3] Diego Gutiérrez and Hieronymus Cock., (1562). Americae sive quartae orbis partis nova et exactissima descriptio. [Engraving]. Library of Congress, Geography and Map Division.


Its more logical to assume the Carthaginians would sail down
the coast, and then explore the Amazon, this is like the debate
about how far the Vikings went below Cape Cod, after surviving
the Atlantic transit. Its a conjectural leap to get them into the
vast Pacific. Its a 50/50 debate if they survive initial contact near
Brazil as it is, you almost have to send 2/3 to 4/5 of your fleet
back to the Canary Islands when at mid-Atlantic to supply your
better vessels for the last leg of any Equatorial Atlantic crossing.
It also behooves you to send a secondary fleet of relief vessels
to meet your returning fleet as they try to find Europe or Africa.
The odds are against success, and a return trip is sheer luck...
Any trip most likely has to be one way, even if successful, you
need several excursions like this to create a colony that is not
a B.C precursor to Roanoke. All supplies are critical for success.

Titus pullo
4/4/2014 12:13:53 pm

Sounds like it was fundraising week at pbs. I learned a long time ago just because something is on nor I robs doesn't make it any better than what's on CBS or fox. Monsters and ufos and mysteries are selling now, bps just wants to ride the wave.

Reply
cjy link
4/4/2014 04:26:49 pm

Yup. I had the same thought - the indigenous population could have encountered and mixed with Europeans much later than they are hoping to substantiate their ancient Celt theory. Also - seems I have heard of distant cultures evolving similar forms of art, building etc. with no proof of interaction. Weak show.

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Mark E.
4/5/2014 01:58:46 am

On the sling thing:

Slings have been recovered from archaeological sites on the coast of Peru dating back to 2500 BCE. Balearic Islands slingers were first recorded in 700 BCE after clashes with the Phoenicians. There are only so many places you can carry a sling on your body, around your head would seem a practical choice no matter what culture is using them.

That wearing a sling on your head would be passed on but not iron working is a bit perplexing. Just vague ideas of cultural diffusionism based on wishful thinking.

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Graham
4/5/2014 03:54:19 am

Could be worse, I visited a second hand bookshop today and saw on a high shelf a book entitled "Colony Earth: Are We The Children Of The Gods", from the cover style I'm guessing it dates from the 1970's.

I plan to see if it's still there the next time I go back as it's would be interesting to see just where the author thinks Homo Sapiens came from and what 'evidence' is produced in support.

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J.A.D
4/5/2014 08:04:17 am

It indeedy is from 1974 and i do feel i sorta must have walked by
it quite often when on the bookstore shelves! the quick gist from
some mini-reviews hints that Roswell N.M ain't the only tyme
we all have some lil ole E.Ts crash-landing here, unhappily...?
Do read the QUESTOR TAPES novel, it truly boldly arrives as
poor Gene Roddenberry once tried to get another Sci-Fi series
renewed and part of a franchise like Paramount's TREK one!!!
Its like taking EVD's Brain*Freezes, THIS ISLAND EARTH or
QUESTOR + blending 'em together with ROSWELL the TV series.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1807602.Colony

http://www.amazon.com/Colony-Earth-Richard-E-
Mooney/dp/0812816587

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-10288.html

http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/02/pulp-fantasy-library-chariots-of-gods.html

Reply
its briefly quoted in this online PDF
4/5/2014 08:11:53 am

http://buelahman.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/earths-forbidden-secrets-part-one.pdf

Graham
4/5/2014 02:07:42 pm

Thanks for those reviews, looks like a case of the 'Piper Hypothesis' (SF Author H. Beam Piper used a 'Humans are descended from Martian Colonists' idea in some of his stories in the 1950's) gone mad.

I'm surprised Jason has not tracked down this 'gem' and reviewed it yet.

Vanessa
4/5/2014 05:43:35 am

Thank you for writing this article. I was really disappointed/dismayed after watching this episode it was painfully weak and stupid.

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Dr. Charles Larsen
4/5/2014 09:40:50 am

Why does this so strongly remind me of the Nazis looking around the world for their mythic version of the Arians?

Reply
A.D.
4/5/2014 12:10:38 pm

It's exactly like the Ahnenerbe.The legacy of that is still alive.

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J.A.D
4/5/2014 02:17:16 pm

http://archive.archaeology.org/0603/abstracts/nazis.html

an interesting article, even if short and brief. someone WW2 era
would already know WHICH group + why this is pseudo-science.
someone younger has to look up the word to see what they were.

BillUSA
4/6/2014 10:01:07 am

Scott Wolter Beta or beg-a-thons. What's not to dislike?

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Colin
4/8/2014 12:04:00 pm

Hi Jason - what is "copper-zinc bronze"? A copper-zinc alloy would be brass wouldn't it? This isn't meant as nit-picking, I'm just puzzled as to what we're actually talking about here.

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Jason Colavito link
4/8/2014 12:08:04 pm

It's what the show called it. Copper-zinc is usually called brass, as you note. You'd have to ask PBS/ZDF what they were talking about. I'm sorry I don't have a better answer!

Reply
Jonathan
4/9/2014 07:07:41 pm

I believe Bronze Age bronze was typically a copper and tin or arsenic alloy. Not sure about zinc.

Christoph
7/6/2015 07:58:04 am

There is such a thing as commercial bronze. But this is rather a misnomer for a brass alloy. Nevertheles you find the term.

Beyond that: "We all like a good story". This one however is too good to be true, seeing the "broad" evidence presented. It is like stating that storks bring babies. Storks are getting rarer in industrialized countries, and so are babies. QED.

Hans Giffhorn
4/9/2014 06:00:40 am

Dear Mr. Colavito,
I looked at your website, and am sure there are many points on which we would agree totally.
But in this case I am afraid you are attacking the wrong person and the wrong theory.
You should know a few things:
Since I am a German scientist and grew up and was educated in Western Germany after the war (I was two years old when the war was over), I know what happened in the Third Reich better than most foreigners and younger people. And that is exactly one of the reasons why I hated two things all my life – any kind of irrationalism and dogmatism, and any kind of racism. And if one would call me a racist or a nazi in Germany, I would bring him to court for calumny. If slender and defamation is the “Sceptics” way of defending paradigms: poor science.
I won´t talk about the PBS-show – it´s not a scientific publication, but just a documentary. It was not made by me, I had no control over its contents and I haven´t seen it before it was broadcasted. If you really are interested in facts and not just in putting down everything which does not blindly follow mainstream paradigms, you should read my book on the subject (the new edition from March 2014 informs about the recent state of my knowledge).
At my age I don’t need more money than I have, and I have no personal ambitions at all anymore. Neither do I want to convince anyone of any theory, just present formerly unknown evidence as a help for researchers. So normally I don´t propagate my book. I hope you understand that in this case I had to make an exception.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
4/9/2014 07:59:18 am

Thank you for taking the time to visit my site, though I am dismayed that you assume that I am calling you a Nazi. I am not calling you a racist or a Nazi, but I won't apologize for noting that your theory shares a similar storyline not just to claims for the Nazi flight to Argentina, but also to earlier claims that the same South American groups you attribute to the Celts were the descendants of Viking warriors, etc. It has been a repeated trope in a certain branch of unusual historiography to claim that one group or another of Europeans, escaping cultural or ethnic persecution or eradication, came to America and ruled over the Native peoples. This was true before there were Nazis, and continues to be true long after they have gone, though one of the most famous proponents of the idea was Jacques de Mahieu, the former Nazi collaborator, who supported scientific racism.

Here in the U.S., our fringe geologist Scott F. Wolter makes a living using this same template (and citing Mahieu!) but filling in "Knights Templar" where you have "Celts," though he also imagines a Celtic invasion of North America in the Middle Ages.

That you accuse me of blindly supporting "mainstream paradigms" marks you as someone who accuses me of failing to do research you have not done yourself; have you read any of my books? If you won't talk about the PBS show, I'm not sure what you can complain about since I was reviewing the program; if it did not present your views fairly, that is an issue between you and them, not me.

The question isn't about paradigms but evidence, and the show did not provide enough to support the claims. While I'd be happy to read your book, so far as I understand it, it is only in German. Do you have an English language edition?

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Hans Giffhorn
4/9/2014 09:24:16 am

Dear Mr. Colavito,
I am sorry for the equivocation. Today it was the first time I heard your name. My remarks were targeting also some of the commenters.
I know by your article that you have had a close look at the PBS-Show and that you discovered and refuted all the mistakes and the weak points in its argumentation. As I wrote before I had no control over its content. I even can´t blame you to be reminded of the Nazi-stuff of de Mahieu.
For those reasons I thought it is necessary to inform about the book. And because of your way of arguing I posted a comment at all - normally I don´t join in Internet-discussions.
I am afraid that there is no English version of the book. If one is available, I will let you know.
I like critical argumentation. But I hope you accept that I return to my habit not to participate in blogs. Perhaps one day there is a better opportunity for discussion.
Best wishes
Hans Giffhorn

Commander Corwin A. Bell USN (ret.)
9/23/2015 08:44:47 pm

I have forgotten most of my college German, but I have your book and I find the evidence that you presented in it most compelling. I will be writing an essay supporting your theory for "San Diego MENSAN." I would appreciate any updates on evidence concerning your theory, particularly mitochondrial DNA evidence. Regards, Skipper Al

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Wolf Wondollek
1/31/2022 06:03:05 am

Har samma bakgrund och åsikter!!! Född i efterkrigs Västtyskland, studerat i Göttingen, är objektiv vetenskapshistoriker. De rasistiska och nazistiska kommentarerna är urlöjliga!!!
Jag är open-minded för konstruktiva, innovativa idéer, men inte för nonsense och partiska påståenden!
Var och hur kan jag få tag i Din bok?

Reply
Hans Giffhorn
4/9/2014 09:26:08 am

Dear Mr. Colavito,
I am sorry for the equivocation. Today it was the first time I heard your name. My remarks were targeting also some of the commenters.
I know by your article that you have had a close look at the PBS-Show and that you discovered and refuted all the mistakes and the weak points in its argumentation. As I wrote before I had no control over its content. I even can´t blame you to be reminded of the Nazi-stuff of de Mahieu.
For those reasons I thought it is necessary to inform about the book. And because of your way of arguing I posted a comment at all - normally I don´t join in Internet-discussions.
I am afraid that there is no English version of the book. If one is available, I will let you know.
I like critical argumentation. But I hope you accept that I return to my habit not to participate in blogs. Perhaps one day there is a better opportunity for discussion.
Best wishes
Hans Giffhorn

Reply
Warren Church
4/9/2014 12:45:20 pm

I want to briefly add my observations on the Blog and the posts. Like Dr. Giffhorn, I don't do this often. I also appeared on this PBS special because I earned my doctorate and have spent nearly 25 years conducting archaeology in Chachapoyas. The producer contacted me and I provided counterpoint, especially at the end of the show, pro bono. To me the data demonstrates that Andean peoples living in that region for over 10,000 years are the only peoples responsible for constructing Kuelap, and the many other ancient settlements in the northeastern Peruvian Andes. Dr. Giffhorn and I disagree on the point of possible Carthaginian or Celtic origins of native pre-conquest populations. I worked with his book, although my German is virtually nil before I was interviewed for the show. I also provided more critique on-camera than the producers decided to include in the final edit. In my view, the show was not balanced. It did not do justice to scientific archaeology. After the interview Dr. Giffhorn and I exchanged several lengthy emails and I found him to be a gentleman who does not deserve the racialist commentary posted by some bloggers. Dr. Giffhorn is not a neo-Nazi or a racist. In his book he denounces Nazism and expresses some concern that his ideas will be interpreted as somehow politically biased. Slandering him as a racist is cheap and unbecoming anyone who really wishes to discuss an issue. Furthermore, I don't think that Dr. Giffhorn is obligated to publish his book in English just because PBS decided to broadcast its content in English. I think Dr. Giffhorn would say that the show may not have done justice to HIS ideas, just as it didn't do justice to mine. Regardless, this seems to be the kind of programming that Americans (and other nationals) want now. Not history, but the History Channel. Now PBS is also providing "edu-tainment" and why? Because they are serving a market. If people blogging here want better, or different programming, then they need to write letters to PBS. Many blogs out there are humming because they find Dr. Giffhorn's narrative compelling. Think about this. A shocking number of Americans don't want evolution taught in their schools, and will not accept that current climate changes are driven by human activities. I don't know what predominant nationalities are posting on this blog, but I question the sincerity of my North American countrymen who think that they can pick and choose what scientific discipline is valid and what scientific discipline is not. Archaeologists are scientists, too. We don't just make up shit. We have politicians for that. At my most cynical moments, I question whether Americans have a right to require scientific veracity, or not, on any TV show. You get what you pay for.

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Jason Colavito link
4/9/2014 12:59:57 pm

I thank you for your comments, Warren, but I do want to clarify that I am the only "blogger" here. Other people may comment, but their comments are, legally and morally, their own. A few commenters have noted a similarity in structure between

Dr. Griffhorn's claims and those put forward by Nazi archaeologists, particularly Jacques de Mahieu, a onetime Nazi collaborator. I agree that there is a structural similarity, which is of course not a truth claim. Even Dr. Griffhorn, in the comments above, admits that the documentary gave the impression that his ideas are of similar structure and with similar evidence. This does not mean they are related, only that they share similarities. They may be convergent rather than connected.

This gets back to an ongoing conversation that has played out on my blog about whether people who are not themselves racist can put forward claims that, because they are wrong, have the functional effect of promoting racist ideas or beliefs. As you describe it, Dr. Griffhorn seems to recognize that his ideas could have just such an effect, so criticism of PBS for running with them without such thoughtful consideration is not unwarranted.

It is also important that we not confuse the PBS program with Dr. Griffhorn's work. I was reviewing the PBS documentary, and I cannot possibly comment on Griffhorn's wider work because I have not read it. I can only comment on how PBS depicted it, and as you note this was heavily edited to follow a particular narrative line, one that has been repeatedly used in race-based narratives. Dr. Griffhorn is not obliged to publish in English, nor has anyone demanded it of him. But as I said, I can't read German fluently, limited as I am to English, French, Spanish, and Latin.

Perhaps it's best when reviewing documentaries to think of references to the people appearing on them as characters created by the producers who happen to share the same name with real people. But again: If the caricature version appearing on screen does not fairly represent the Griffhorn's or your own views, that's not on me: That's on the producers. I can only judge what appears on the screen.

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J.A.D
4/9/2014 02:37:50 pm

Coincidentally... a few years back, I was briefly banned
from the web-site forums of one of the young fellows who
had put together some of the programs for the History Channel
and even H2 --- GOTO the BLACK VAULT, it has a history
of muckraking & trendy takes on things like Gov't documents,
UFOs and official cover-ups. Jason is spot on when he talks
about H.P Lovecraft, but is skeptical about how often we are
visited by the E.Ts! His opposite numbers on this question
include people like Whitley Strieber and Stanton Friedman.
Young John Greenewald easily slaps together a show that
delights the "believers" even though his innate skepticism is
perhaps on par with Jason's, I find this ironical. What John
Greenewald was very good at is getting "Uncle Sam" to cough
up about 30,ooo heavily censored UFO related documents
from BLUE BOOK onward. He wwas and is ratings driven!!!!!

((((drumrolls))))
4/9/2014 02:38:56 pm

http://www.theblackvault.com/

Warren Church
4/9/2014 03:24:09 pm

I'm afraid, Jason, that you did not understand my commentary. I think the problem stems from your definition of The Blogger, and everyone else as "commentators" who you entice to your Web site with provocative commentary on stuff. This is not a shared definition of blogging which anyone can do on any blog site to reply as well as comment. See: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blog?s=t. But, it does allow you to conduct yourself like the "grown-up in the room." By your definition, this is your blog. So if I make a remark about racist blogs you take this personally while actually I was addressing several people's remarks. Whatever. Your comment about Nazis fleeing to Argentina shows where your mind goes with similar diffusionist theories. You brought the Nazis into the conversation while others did not.... presumably because Dr. Giffhorn is German. You made that remark, not PBS. It was not provoked by anything than your decision to span the centuries to link nationalists fleeing across the Atlantic.No, his narrative of Carthage is not historically linked to the Third Reich or even analogous except that they presumably crossed the same ocean. All diffusionist narratives, and they come from every nation on earth, are based on an inadequate understanding of (in this case) pre-Columbian Native American cultures and their achievements. You can call it racism if you want and say it is akin to a Nazi flight to South America. It's your blog and you are blogger. I don't find the comparison enlightening though it may help you feel that have moral or intellectual high-ground. How or why you chose to compare a real historical event and an alternative (In my opinion unfounded) archaeological narrative I don't know, but this has been a vapid discussion that failed to hit the mark. Thank you for the use of your Blog, sir. If I ever return, I will first ask your permission to post .

Jason Colavito link
4/9/2014 11:54:31 pm

Warren, I have never once heard of anyone considering comments left on a blog post to be blog posts themselves. You're welcome to disagree with me, and you don't need my permission to post here.

If I had said that Griffhorn's ideas were similar to those of Scott Wolter, who claimed that the Templars, facing defeat, got in their ships and sailed to the Americas where they founded a kingdom and ruled over the Natives, would that have bothered you? Had I said it was similar to de Mahieu's ideas about the Vikings doing the same thing, would that bother you? So why should a reference to the myth (not the historical fact, which is a separate issue) of the Nazi flight to South America upset you save your feeling that I was ethnically stereotyping Griffhorn? That Griffhorn himself, as you note, expressed his own concerns about the impression his work could leave should indicate that my recognition of the same is not unwarranted. I was trying to point out the narrative similarity: a European power, facing defeat, sends forth secret ships that penetrate the Americas, assert dominance over the Natives, and maintain an ethnically pure culture discoverable today.

One of the issues in studying diffusionism--and I am far from alone in seeing this--is that in the West its theories are 10:1 white people invading non-white people. Regardless of the individual's own personal beliefs, these ideas don't emerge ex nihilo. They emerge from a set of cultural beliefs that are tied to earlier ideas, themselves the product of imperialist, racist, and colonialist narratives. If you've read Barkun's "Culture of Conspiracy" (2006/2013), you'll see that individuals may not even be aware of the cultural forces behind the ideas they propose, so it's not as though an individual is necessarily personally racist in proposing a narrative.

J.A. Dickey
4/9/2014 03:10:21 pm

"I don't know what predominant nationalities are posting on this blog, but I question the sincerity of my North American countrymen who think that they can pick and choose what scientific discipline is valid and what scientific discipline is not. Archaeologists are scientists, too. We don't just make up shit. We have politicians for that. At my most cynical moments, I question whether Americans have a right to require scientific veracity, or not, on any TV show. You get what you pay for."

I'm going to answer Warren Church! He made a telling point!
I am fresh from a Coursera class that was taught by John Hawks
and of the 25,000 people, many weren't Americans!!!! It was
global! By comparison, this blog has a small & loyal fan-dom,
and several core groups of opinionated people! It is intense!!!

Ethnically I am an American and have ancestors from the U.K,
I have a line of descent from one of the Normans who was at
the battle of Hastings, I am also part Irish and part Scottish,
and the small estate that my Norman ancestors lived on after
that battle was near Bristol, which is near Wales. In the early
1600s an ancestor of mine was a courtier around James I&VI
and soon thereafter he went to Ireland, there was a marriage
into the bloodline of the O'Neills, I was told that some of my
Northern Irish ancestors and their close near kin had in their
possession a bell that had once belonged to Saint Patrick, it
had traveled down the bloodlines for roughly one thousand years.
In the Mid-1800s an immediate ancestor of mine wrote about it
for a scholarly journal, his ancestral provenance and story was
doubted. I do regard the Nazi era as blight on scholarship, it
was grander and better before them and after them. We know
that the West was freer than the East, but that the inevitable had
to be, the ending of the zones. In the back of my mind I was
thinking over Willy Brandt's life and the wise stewardship of
Konrad Adenauer. I feel we have a habit of leaping to conclusions.

Reply
J.A.D
4/9/2014 03:19:12 pm

http://books.google.com/books?id=XCg-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=bell+dickey+saint+patrick&source=bl&ots=JEJ06b0BNk&sig=B3ksrg9lUtbVLcIVVtBFRu9uGYI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Lf5FU7CNCcWq2gW2goGYCg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=bell%20dickey%20saint%20patrick&f=false


http://books.google.com/books?id=eKvPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA377&lpg=PA377&dq=bell+adam+dickey+saint+patrick&source=bl&ots=Jy0I68KtpA&sig=0TY3xg_XnLQlaUgzYFerhOQXikE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=If9FU_PKEYHx2wWHzoDwBg&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

J.A.D
4/9/2014 03:36:25 pm

I have Irish kin who are Catholics and Protestants!

Adam Dickie conceals in his house two priests...



Here is an old newspaper obituary.
An O'Neill stands out in it, and is
next to a member of the clan who
were near kin, but often had the bell.
GOTO the late 1600s and the politics!



THE BELFAST CHRONICLE WEDNESDAY MORNING APRIL 12, 1854
OBITUARY– JOHN DICKEY, ESQ. OF CULLYBACKEY, CO. ANTRIM

Died at Antrim, on Friday, the 31st March, John Dickey, Esq., Cullybackey, in his 88th year, having been born on the 21st February 1767. he was representative of his family and name, nor for upwards of 200 years residents of Antrim and Derry counties. His more immediate ancestors were natives of Ayrshire, N.B., one of whom settled early on the Ulster plantation. John Dicke or Dickie, married a daughter of Hyndman, of Myroe, Country Derry, also from Scotland, and sister of Captain Hyndman, in command of the guard who fired the first shots on the Earl of Antrim’s regiment, Dec., 1688, on the closing of the gates of Derry. This John was in Colonel Phillip’s detachment, afterwards called the Coleraine regiment, the first that marched to garrison the city of Derry. He was considered too old to bear the siege, was afterwards driven under the walls, and had his house at Ballymully, near the Roe-water, burned by the army of James on its retreat from Derry. His eldest son Adam acquired Ballydonellan, by his wife Janet, only child of James Cuik, from Fife, N.S., her mother was daughter of the ruined family of O’Mulchullen, of the line of Manus Reigh, by his wife, daughter of O’Neill of Ballydonellan, whose lands were attainted temp. chalres II., on pretext of his taking up arms in 1641 – 41, and confirmed to the Edenduffcarrick family, and by the ancestor of the present venerated and sincerely respected Lord O’Neill, regranted at a nominal rest to James Cuik, O’Mulchullen’s son-in law.

After the resolution of 1688 Adam Dickie kept concealed in his house at Ballydonellan two priests named O’Neill and O’Mulchallen, much persecuted by those in power. His house was searched, but the priests were not found. They used as a mod of concealment meal barrels, out of which one end was taken, and on a false head was placed a few inches of oatmeal; these were put over the priest’s when an alarm was given, and in a store room amongst others no suspicion was excited. He nominally took lands for his Catholic neighbours to evade the penal laws, and entered largely into the linen trade, then encouraged by the government, as a sot off against the destruction of the woollen manufacture. He and his wife passed 74 years a married couple, and were buried with his father-in law in the old O’Neill burying place at Duneau, with the Irish cry, as others of his descendants were to a recent period, though Presbyterians. The priests publicly blessed Adam Dickie and his descendents for seven generations.

The eldest son of Adam and Janet was John Dickie, of Ballydonnellan and Cullybackey, which he purchased to carry out the linen trade in the most extensive manner then known; and by him, at Lowpark of Cullybackey, were erected the first bleach mills on the river Maine. John’s eldest son, by his first wife Martha, daughter of J. Hill, of the Hills of county Antrim, also Scottish, was the late Adam Dickey, Esq. Of Cullybackey, who died in 1827 at 95, and who by his wife Elizabeth, daughter of the late David Graham, of an ancient Scottish family, whose ancestor married a daughter of the Colville family, afterwards of Galgorm and Newtownards. From a younger brother of David’s of the Sugarhouse and Graham’s\entry, Belfast, derive maternally the Fulton’s, Caldbecks of Lisburn, and others. The eldest son of Adam, by his wife Elizabeth was the deceased John Dickey, who was highly esteemed by all who knew him.

Like his predecessors, he was a Presbyterian, and an elder in the congregation of Cullybackey. By his wife Rose, daughter and sole heiress of the late William McNaghten, Esq. Of Ballyreagh, Oldstone, county Antrim and his wife Dorothy Major, he has left two sons – the elder Adam, the younger William McNaghten Dickey – both of whom are married and have issue; also, three daughters and several grandchildren.

The respectable families of New York, U.S., Hillhead, Dunmore, Ballymena, Hollybrooke, Millmount, Randalstown, Myrtlefield, and others – established by the younger sons of this family – are too well known and respected to need any notice here; and without including the numerous families of t he gentry, with whom they allied themselves, daughters of the Dickeys, whose descendants still remain, married Forsythe of --- Newton; Galt from Scotland of Coleraine; Galloway of Tully; McRorie of Ballylurgan; Campbell of Ballygawie; Hudson of Aboghill and Portglenone; Hogg of Lisburn; Barnet of Moira, Besfast, and India; Mitchell of Newgro

Gary Buchanan link
11/1/2014 09:53:00 am

mr. Dickey, I agree. The Ulster Chronicles, and numerous other recorded oral traditions of the larger "Irish Chronicles" long dismissed as fantastical, state that the ancient Scytho-Irish-Milesians, et al were not only "diffusing" all over the place, largely by sea, but that they were also in Sumer, Turkey, Troy, Palestine, Greece, Thrace, and even Egypt, with Mil marrying the pharaoh's daughter, Scota, and with relatives settling the area that would become Carthage around 1800-1700 B.C. Then they established colonies on the Iberian coast (re: Balearic Islands) before moving onto Eire. Many, many folks can trace their ancestry to these lines. And now genetically! Several family lines, from the Tara dynasty, can trace their R1b1a2 Y-chromosome to Tutankhamen. But, all of this "diffusionist" thinking, and true genetic science, is anathema to the establishment... and to so many folks who have been blogging herein.

Over the past five decades some of us have been researching the Chachapoyas, as well. With Gene Savoy we brought to light six of their seven major cities in northeastern Peru. We found proto-sinaitic script (600 B.C. or earlier confirmed by B.Y.U. and Cyrus Gordon) --- probably brought by some of the above visitors, along with Jomon pottery styles (Meggars-Smithsonian), and other engraved tablature from seemingly diverse regions of the planet. The ancients sailed everywhere and shared cultural systems and cosmic-solar religions. Savoy even manned an expedition up the Amazon decades back --- just to confirm these many ceramic and textile designs (tattoos, etc.) found from the Brazilian coast all the way into Chachapoyas. So, Prof. Giffhorn, like Savoy, is simply being called all kinds of names and rebuked by those who have written books and articles blatantly out of touch with the reality of ancient civilizations. Man has been on the planet for at least two million years.. but supposedly did not become truly "evolved" and capable of sailing the seas until Columbus. There is also a biological condition known as "devolution."

Maria Guzman
4/6/2015 03:18:37 pm

I will make a short response. I think we need to be more open and not to underestimate humans from the past. You did good Hans and Warren. I look forward to your book Hans.

Reply
Shirley Crow
5/19/2015 04:13:47 pm

J.A.D., (J.A. Dickey) I'm also related to Adam Dicky (1760-?) and Janet Cuick Dicky (1670 - ?). I would love to learn more about them. Are you on Ancestry.com?

Wolf Wondollek
1/31/2022 06:18:16 am

Så sant - I agree completely!!!

Scientific research must be independent from any kind of intrests, just in an objective, openminded, creative and innovative manner!
Everything else is "bullshit".

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J.A.D
4/9/2014 02:24:14 pm

As an American and a member of the general public, I have
easily looked at more than half of the Secrets Of The Dead
episodes over the years and have found them to be rather
thoroughly researched & often holding their own with NOVA.
If the recent episode is a patchwork quilt that took 5 separate
and independent interviews & tried to cobble them together
into a seamless program that was cutting edge archaeology,
then the effort almost succeeded. It also sounds like NONE of
the people thusly interviewed had a control over the final edit.

Coincidentally, totally unaware of Professor Giffhorn's books,
months earlier I had said i thought that the Romans often did
not venture as far as the Carthaginians, I upon seeing this very "SECRETS" episode felt that the way the ships were supplied
would make or break the expedition. I am indeed glad a rather
presumptive & erroneous impression was promptly corrected,
Hopefully young Jason Colavito will correct the good professor's
name by dropping the "R" that has been added to the same.
I had to go online to be certain about the correct spelling so
as not to make the same mistake. Jason has been rigorous
in his critiques, and corrective when a very obvious flaw is
found out. We here know less about Professor Giffhorn than
we do Dennis Stanford, i think this debate hovers around the question as to WHEN the tradewinds were well and fulsomely understood by all ancient sailors. It may very well be we are
also assuming that ship building happens as a consummate
art-form after 5000 B.C and not earlier. We here at this blog-site
like to debate, sometimes we get hot tempered. It is the nature
of an open discussion to explore all ideas but not by the act of sullying anyone's good reputation needlessly as one is also
highly inaccurate. Lets don't polarize this discussion. We here
in the states are only inside a rather tame bi-election, I feel our
political grandstanding belongs elsewhere. We need to look at
the science behind this very carefully! I think the trip was possible!

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J G
5/31/2014 09:45:10 pm

As an archaeologist, I found the PBS special to be particularly soul-sucking. From the comments here, it's clear that Hans Giffhorn is another up and coming pseudoscientist. They come in all colors: ETs in the Andes, Atlantis, the Lost Tribes of Isreal in the Americas, bigfoot in mythology, etc, etc. Sadly, Warren Church and the other unlucky few who made appearances in the program decided to make no effort to control the scientific message. Why would any scientist in their right mind agree to show up in a documentary of which they have no creative or intellectual input.

As someone who works with archaeologists that are regularly approached to appear in shows, I can tell readers that it is not common to give up your creative license. Any sane or legitimate researcher would refuse such a deal on the spot. The Brazilian and Peruvian archaeologists appearing in the program can be forgiven, because they were surely ambushed and had no idea how their words would be used. If PBS approached any of my English speaking colleagues however, they would immediately demand that their input could only be used if they had editorial control. This of course is why only outsider no-names like Giffhorn and Church appear in pseudoscience programming.

The fact that Church shows up in blogs to defend the ethnocentrism of quacks like Giffhorn, simply because they're polite and friendly to deal with, is further disheartening. But what really blew me away was to find Church here attacking the blogger. The show was clear, unabashed pseudoscience of the lowest caliber, and it deserves extreme attacks. Further, those in support of it, and those appearing in it, deserve criticism--none of the evidence or theories therein carry any scientific merit whatsoever.

Linking cultural ethnocentrism to the Nazis is a perfectly rational connection, especially when such ethnocentrism is used to steal a proud culture's history and quite literally whitewash their achievements. This kind of filth adds further insult to the people who struggle to fight back to reclaim their heritage after centuries of genocide and foreign domination. How dare a program suggest, without a piece of real evidence, that they needed foreign influence to make their achievements? This goes far beyond cultural diffusion as Church claims in his comments here. This is what anthropologists mean when they discuss the structure in which cultural genocide operates.

While Giffhorn and Church are not themselves Nazis, but they did take part in a "scientific" program based on the Nazi agenda: historical revisionism of the worst kind. They should both be ashamed. It is especially pathetic to see them showing up publicly in blogs, attacking the intelligent researchers who are critical of this agenda and call them out on it. If they had any legitimacy, they'd be out retracting their statements in the program, issuing apologies for their lack of professional discipline and cultural insensitivity, and working to undo the damages that they did by giving credit to such a work. Instead, here they are, attacking logic and standing up against the great history of scientific research that directly contradicts them. Church, Giffhorn--shame on you.

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Hans Giffhorn
6/3/2014 06:40:45 am

I am afraid I have to return to the blog one more time. The risk is too big that amateur readers might think that the proceeding comment is more than just a bluff to attract attention or perhaps get some bonus points for an academic career.

The paradigm, that ancient contacts between Old and New World were not possible, was invented and established in the 19th century in the official scientific world as part of the ideology that modern white western civilizations represent the crown of human evolution (“we could not cross the Atlantic before 1492 AD – so it can´t be possible that primitive ancient cultures were able to do this so much earlier”). Up to now there never existed one single valid argument to support this paradigm. It was just meant to help justifying colonisation, imperialism and exploitation of the rest of the world by the white western civilizations (sources in my publications; especially the publications from 2014 e.g. also make clear, that to my opinion Carthaginians never were in Peru). And this ”structurally racist” paradigm was maintained by university hierarchies up till now – and was and is defended fiercely by groups like the “Sceptics” by personal attacks arguing on the basis of whatever was “politically correct” in the moment.
But the aim of science should not be to do any group a favour. Science means that researchers try to get as close to the truth as possible, not more and not less. And if e.g. those authors pretend that they can judge if my work is pseudoscientific or not, they cheat, because without knowing my recent publications, they have no idea what they are talking about. This I call “pseudoscientific”.
What stuns me about those comments is the brutish ignorance of the authors, only topped by their arrogance. I am talking of ignorance in respect not only of my theory, but also of
- philosophy and history of science,
- the situation of and the actual threats to indigenous cultures of South America - e.g. by fundamentalist American missionaries, oil companies, white Latin American upper class etc.. (To put my theory into this context, is just ridiculous hypocrisy.)
- the Chachapoya Culture (which was extinguished by the Inca and finally by the diseases brought to Peru by the Spanish Conquistadores nearly 500 years ago).

The result of the “Sceptics” way of argumentation: deliberately or not at least in my case they bring back science to the Middle Ages, when research was controlled by dogmas of the Catholic Church and the Holy inquisition. Only a few differences: today the dogmas are the mainstream paradigms, the “Sceptics” chose the part of the inquisition, and this inquisition is forced to work without death sentences against the heretics.

By the way: It is a pity that the “archaeologist J G”, who dared to call Church a “no name”, did not dare to tell his real name. I would like to test if my comment is correct by checking, what he knows about the subject and about science. But to further insinuations and insults I won´t answer.

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J G
6/4/2014 09:18:27 am

Peudoscience: a system of theories, assumptions, and methods erroneously regarded as scientific

To come back and find Griffhorn attacking sceptics is quite in tone with his misconceptions of science and the history and philosophies of science; which do not end at critical post-modernism.

Oh, the sceptics much cause him so much frustration! This is how science operates, Mr. Griffhorn. Science is scepticism. Science is scholarly debate; you are not a scientist just because you self-published a work with no peer review. You label science dogmatic when it works against you, but fail to see how the dogma of cultural superiority is echoed in your own work. If you are a scientist, they you will have to navigate our peer-reviews. Without a shred of evidence in your favor, this is going to be a major problem, because you cannot base a scientific theory on pure conjecture or simple comparisons of form. Having such low standards of testing and scholarly communication, Griffhorn's own post-modernism is far more naïve than pure positivism.

There is nothing dogmatic about questioning ridiculous pseudoscientific claims that lack the credibility of peer reviews. If you have any evidence of Carthaginians in South America, but all means present it for us instead of attacking the sceptics. It is interesting that the only time Griffhorn mentions evidence, he defers to his “book”. Why is he so afraid to state that evidence publicly?

It is also amusing to see Griffhorn claiming that his own theory is some kind of argument against white, racist, scientific dogma. In fact, his theory of the voyage of classical white Europeans to South America is a blaring example the kind of racism that modern archaeologists and anthropologists fight so hard to extinguish. The South Americans didn't need the classical western world, and there is no evidence linking the two cultures.

This is why the reactions here are so strong, and why Griffhorn and other pseudoscientists steer clear of academia. There are no dogmas in academia. If a researcher builds a strong argument with multiple lines of strong evidence, they can voice their theory in peer-reviewed forums. Those theories that fail the test are shown to be false. If Griffhorn has an entire book written, then why not a single peer-reviewed article. There are a wide range of journals where such an article could be submitted from the free and open PNAS to the private American Antiquity.

You ask for my credentials? I am a Sceptic. I do not need to use a position of power and authority to make my claims. I do not defer you to my “book”, I state my claims in public. My qualification is that I am not you, and I am not claiming that classical Western peoples were in South America. The onus falls on you to support such a wild and dangerous claim. The danger is that New World peoples are stripped of their ancestry in public, by “experts” like you and your pseudoscientific cadre.

Respond to the following evidence against Europeans in South America, using peer reviewed sources:
There is no DNA evidence of European ancestry in the ancient Americas.
From the tens of thousands of pre-columbian teeth recovered, non can be shown to be of European origin.
No credible stylistic or technological similarities exist between Carthaginian and South American artifacts of any kind.
Not a single European skeleton in South America has ever been recovered from a pre-columbian context.
Of the hundreds of thousands of archaeological excavations, not a single artifact--excavated in context--of European ancestry predates the colonial period in South America.
No western diseases spread rampant through the New World until the contact period.

Please cease your self-references, and take on these issues using real sources.

Here's to you, Sceptics of the world! The true scientists! You who rise to attack baseless arguments with no evidence. Rise to debunk Euro-supremacist theories that strip the agency and power from non-western civilizations, replacing them with white ghosts. Rise to attack the outsiders who appear on your television make their wild claims. Rise to attack impersonators. Rise to attack the deceptive theories of extraterrestrials in Peru, the lost tribes of Israel in the Americas, Carthaginians in South America. Demand evidence, demand peer review!

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Joe american
9/2/2017 09:12:31 pm

Come on j g give us your name Mr archeologist

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Hans Giffhorn
6/5/2014 06:05:00 am

I am grateful for this enlightening lecture about the “Sceptics”, and I deeply regret that I ever doubted the infallibility of peer-reviews. Perhaps in return Their Eminences, the peers, could grant the gift of reading to their faithful followers, to understand e.g. what I wrote about the Carthaginians in my comment or how my surname is spelled.

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Lucius
9/12/2014 04:18:43 pm

Right so, dear Prof Giffhorn,
they all haven't red your book and so them isn't really allowed to damn it or your work. I've read it and methinks that it is like a kind of forensic searching for the real truth behind the mystery.
The desease of those like J G (in extreme!) is a 19th-century (anglo-saxon) arrogance of thinking therein not can be what not shall/should be.
J G is more a hating one than a (normal) sceptic. I've read such kind of text on other opportunities by any ill men before...
Kindly regards, Lucius

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J G
6/5/2014 01:25:25 pm

I suppose it is much easier to change the subject than have to answer any questions and provide evidence. Oh wait, I know "it's all in your book". Right.

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Hans Giffhorn
6/5/2014 01:57:19 pm

Right.

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BlackM
7/9/2014 03:37:21 pm

Thank you Jason for an excellent and well-thought out post on the Chachapoyas PBS program.

I too thought it odd that they ran DNA testing on living Chachapoya descendents, knowing full well they have been living under European contact for 500 years, yet omitted to test ancient mummified remains.

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JohnD
9/28/2014 01:43:00 pm

Just to play Devil's advocate, the Celts DID have very capable ocean-going vessels. The Veneti ships were in fact so capable that Julius Caesar attacked them from the land side. The Veneti ships were described as so thick of hull that they were resistant to ramming, so high above the water they commanded even the castles on the Roman galleys, and so maneuverable they were almost impossible to ram in the first place. Caesar made a very graphic example of them. But, the reported superiority of the Veneti ships would guarantee that Veneti could readily have escaped by sea. So, in fact if you want to play with weakly supported hypotheses, then you could also speculate on a fleet of survivors from the Veneti arriving in the New World some time around the late Republic period.No Carthaginians are required.

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Nelly
11/27/2014 11:05:45 am

Of course they were White. White Indians were in America long before Columbus. Even Lewis and Clark wrote of the beautiful White blonde Indians. Read about the true native Americans called Solutreans or Kennewick man. Anti-White politically correct brainwashed Marxists have a hard time excepting reality. That is why White slavery in America is never spoken about. It also explains the White blonde "Gods" tribes spoke of who were simply more advanced White Indians who shared knowledge.

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Normandie Kent
5/30/2017 04:05:11 am

No such thing as Solutrean Natives in America, or white gods. Those are Fairytales low self-esteem white Americans make up so they can feel fuzzy inside, especially since they have no deep roots in America they feel they must make up a history for themselves. Oh, and guess what? Kenniwick Man was Native American, just like the Native Americans always said. You are a immigrant, so get over it and work on your self esteem Someother way. No one here is Anti-White, it's just that you and others like you are anti-Amerindian.

Reply
Willie Nones
11/27/2014 11:38:44 am

You may be archeologists but not historians, clearly. I would strongly suggest stopping the Nazi and German bashing, regurgitating the victors propaganda version of Nazi ideology and research WWII revisionist history. Actually listen to a Hitler speech or read about National Socialism before using the predictable Nazi card. Racist is shouted by those losing or avoiding a debate. So because a Nazi spoke of this idea there can be no fact in it? Does sound like a sound scientific approach to me.

Reply
JD
11/27/2014 11:48:48 am

That's right because history involving Whites should only portray Whites as savage racist beasts who are indigenous to no where and who didn't bring the world anything good, who only committed genocide! But hide the fact that Chachapoyas who were White were genocided. Downplay all European achievements otherwise it's "White supremacy" and "racist."

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gary buchanan link
11/28/2014 08:15:47 am

So many inocrrect concepts! Who ever said that the Scytho-Phoenician-Cannanite-Carthaginians and colleagues were "European," and what does any of that have to do with "white supremacy?" Because they may have originated from somewhere around the Caucasus? The R1b chromosome traveled to Europe beginning sometime before 2,300 B.C.E. Has anyone here ever submitted to the National Geographic genetic test program? Studied the DNA routes? So many keep saying let's be "scientific." As for the Chachapoya gene testing, that's really been an in-house cover-up in my opinion. Not only are those results kept quiet, with no talk of the "X-gene" found (BYU), but even when a mummy is tested, if it looks "white," it must be "Inca," not Chachapoya. Before 1985 almost all academicians, and "peer-reviewed" publications, even insisted that there never were any real Chachapoyas! They were simply a "myth." After Savoy proved them wrong, by finding their cities, mummies, inscriptions, ceramic designs, descendants, the academic answer was, "Well, perhaps there was a 'confederation' of folks... but not 'white' people." Even the Chacha still living know better (Various locales.). These indigenous survivors must also be racists. Geesh! Time will tell - for sure!

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JD
11/29/2014 06:03:59 pm

Well, accounts tell of beautiful fair skinned, light hair (blonde and reddish blonde) and light eyed (blue and green) people in Peru. Those are Nordic features. It is extremely rare to find it in non-Europeans and those who do have those features, usually have some European DNA. Today we see some lighter features in Peru but they are clearly mixed race and could highly likely be decedents of the fair skinned (White) migrants. It makes me think of Quetzalcoatl, Kukulkan, Viracocha, Votan, Gucumatz who are all White Nordic looking "Gods." But could it be just explorers teaching knowledge to more remote tribes? There is a painting from the Inca period that shows Chachapoya women who all have white skin and reddish blonde hair. But the politically correct and socially acceptable response would be to deny that race exists.

Normandie Kent
5/30/2017 04:13:17 am

Europeans sure as hell ain't indigenous to The Americas, Nor were the Chachapoyas European or white. Also, stop trying to steal the heritage, identity and acheivments of the real indigenous people of the Americas, the Native Americans.

Reply
Hans Giffhorn
9/24/2015 03:21:08 am

To Skipper Al. How can we get into contact? My mail: giffhorn@t-online.de

Reply
Gary Buchanan link
9/24/2015 02:49:14 pm

The most recent DNA evidence of local residents in and around Chachapoyas shows that an R1b genomic admixture is present in 22% of 1,000 samples. Those admixtures indicate that they must have formed prior to arrival of the Spanish, as it takes far more time for such complex DNA to evolve. Therefore, there were R1b genes in Chachapoyas in pre-Columbian times, i.e., "Caucasian" origins. This from a study chart posted on the net. Would be nice if all the charts compiled by Woodard and BYU would be released, as well...Sonia Guillen, etc. Also important to understand that in the PBS documentary "Irish" sources were posited, along with Carthaginians and Balearic Islanders. These three groups are dominantly R1b....along with King Tut and that dynasty. So, racism is a bad thing, but not genetic analyses.

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Hans Giffhorn
9/25/2015 07:58:58 am

Hi Gary - that sounds intersting. I know Sonia since many years, and I also know, that she tends to be a little bit shy with publishing results. Do you know how I can get a quotable document about the R1b results?
Thanks a lot in advance.Hans (giffhorn@t-online.de)

Reply
Gary Buchanan link
10/12/2015 01:20:24 pm

Hans --- I had to go back online and try to locate the several articles, and haplogroup tables I had viewed previously. Several have incredibly been removed - the cover-up continues. However, several are still up!

Basically, " The YFull spreadsheet shows that 9 out of the 41 1000 Genomes Peruvian samples (22%) are R1b. Note that my K = 26 admixture analysis of Amerindians and Mestizos showed that the 1000 Genomes Peruvian samples have Caucasoid admixture beyond what is found in all Amerindians, but that this admixture is distinct from the kind of additional Caucasoid admixture that is found in Mestizos, and that it therefore cannot possibly be from the post-Columbian Spanish."

Here are the links:

http://www.yfull.com/full-genomes/

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/02/more-y-snp-calls-for-chachapoyas/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824117/

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/06/20/analyses-of-chachapoya-genomes/comment-page-1/

Hans Giffhorn
10/12/2015 02:06:47 pm

Thanks a lot, Gary. Now I´ve got something to read.

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Florian M link
10/11/2015 09:46:05 am

To scan through this amount of comments is a major task but it is ultimately not worthwhile as it is not worthwhile to read the whole article that instigated such a discussion. The author is unfortunately biased and utterly uninformed about the earliest contact of South America and the rest of the world. What about the Fuente Magna bowl and other findings and so much more?

Reply
Gary Buchanan link
12/29/2015 11:53:26 am

Hans - Glad these links on DNA may be of help in further investigations. Florian - Yes, the Fuente Magna with the Sumerian glyphs. etc. go a long way in establishing earlier global contacts in the Americas. One might also look at the documented research of Betty Meggars at the Smithsonian showing that the Jomon were in Ecuador very early on...and, on expeditions, we found Jomon pottery styles among the Chachapoyas (in Gran Vilaya). Then there is the theory that the Argonauts were actually in America, along with the Chinese, and so many others (Mertz). The truth is in ancient times the seas were the highways, around the globe, and people were in communication all over the place! Already, genetic studies are beginning to verify these routes and linkages. There is so much evidence of ancient contacts, highly advanced civilizations and technologies... it is only the tenured academics who seek to disparage what we all know in our subconscious.

Reply
Commander Corwin A. Bell, U.S. Navy (ret .)
1/23/2017 02:19:44 pm

I am appalled at the resistance of the archaeological community to any evidence of pre-Colombian contact. Not only is there an unwillingness to review the evidence, but some members of the community resort to ad hominem attacks or, worse, claims of racism -- even Nazism. This reveals a level of dogma stifling genuine research that has not been seen since the Pope locked up Galileo for heresy.

I am a sailor, and, having sailed against the Gulf Stream from New York to Florida, I know that it has been possible for any number of European or North African people to sail to the Americas for thousands of years. I suspect that there were hundreds of significant intentional or, more likely, accidental visits from west to east, for that is where the prevailing winds and currents flow. Because those same conditions make the return trip difficult, it is not surprising that Western literature does not contain many accounts of these voyages.
Archaeologists demand evidence. However, they let their pathetic ignorance of languages other than English prevent them from even reviewing the evidence contained in Professor Giffhorn a books.
I have an ancient oil lamp found in a cave near Alabama's Coosa River by a fellow Navy commander. He found a whole shipment of lamps and urns when he was a teen. CDR Gene Andress had many of these relics essentially stolen from him by academics. The rest he put in a safe deposit box. I came into possession of one lamp by virtue of my father's membership in the board of directors of a local museum near the Muskogee Indian cave where it was found. In a fund raising drive, the museum sold the lamp misidentified as an Indian relic. My dad correctly identified it and bought it.
We all watch satellite images of tropical storms forming off of the coast of northern West Africa before these move to the Caribbean and Florida. We know that the Carthaginians had colonies on the west coast of Africa. Lacking satellite images, how many merchant ships must have been caught up in these storms and blown to the west. Even if it lost its mast. A two and one half knot current would carry them to the Americas, most likely Brazil.
Any archaeologist who finds evidence of such a voyage would risk his career by bringing such evidence to light. He would be condemned by references comparing him to Eric Von Danikan or Scott Wolters.
Please give Professor Giffhorn's evidence a proper hearing.

Al Bell

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Gary Buchanan link
1/24/2017 12:02:38 pm

Dear Mr. Bell,

I agree in total. Also have sailed - and in 1997-1998 navigated the Feathered Serpent - Ophir from Callao to Hawaii, thence onto the South Pacific - no engine, just wind and currents carrying our 73-foot catamaran. A two-knot current was always present - we would have gotten there, anyway! I navigated by the stars - easily. Just lined up Orion between the masts each midnight, Southern Cross to the south, North Star to the north. Duh! The ancients (Incas, Chachapoyas, et al) in the Pacific went everywhere. Then there is the whole thing with Henry Sinclair and northeast America. I mean, really...

Reply
CDR Corwin A. Bell
1/24/2017 03:01:35 pm

I accidentally unsubscribed from this. Please re-subscribe me.

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Leah
11/29/2017 10:21:42 pm

"This “new” fact, however, has been known since 2002, and the presence of tuberculosis in the pre-Columbian Americas has been known since 1994—it’s been found beyond just the Chachapoya—but Griffhorn takes this as a revelation that the Carthaginians brought “Classical” tuberculosis (whatever that means—he seems to think the disease was different in Antiquity) with them in 146 BCE, where it lay dormant for a thousand years. Archaeologists suggest that the disease arose from llamas, who are known to carry the bovine form of tuberculosis—or even from the Polynesians who reached South America before Columbus."
There was also the possibility that they got TB from seals, at least in coastal areas. They're highly mobile and can infect humans that hunt them and/or handle the raw meat.

Reply
John B
1/25/2021 08:41:59 pm

Not only were the Cathaginians but also pre-Carthaginians from the lost continent of Mu.Figure it out!

Reply
John Brennan
4/22/2022 09:40:22 am

Gifforn got this all backwards.The Celts are Native Americans that discovered the rest of the whole world and I can prove it.

Reply
Hans Giffhorn link
4/24/2022 05:08:36 am

If you are interested in my argumentation, I recommend these links:
my website https://www.hansgiffhorn.com/
and the 37-minute YouTube video “Warriors from Spain in the Andes of Peru – over 2000 years ago” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYb0357mSgA

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