Pentagon UFO Flap Fallout: God and Satan Battle for Control of UFO Beliefs

12/26/2017

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With the Christmas holiday now behind us, the last few days of the year bring thoughts of the past and the future. At the end of this week, I’ll post my annual year in review going over some of the lowlights from 2017 in fringe history and ancient astronautics. But in the meantime, I thought I would discuss a couple of sidelights that emerged this past week in regard to the recent media reports detailing Sen. Harry Reid’s appropriation of $22 million in taxpayer money to fund a Pentagon office dedicated to giving money to billionaire Robert Bigelow to study UFOs.

The first comes to us from the New York Times, one of the three publications to break the story earlier this month. In a column published this weekend, conservative pundit Ross Douthat discussed Erich von Däniken and Jacques Vallée in what must be one of the first times that the paper of record has treated the ancient astronaut theory as a serious inquiry into the human imagination. Douthat doubts von Däniken, but he is quite taken with Vallée’s claim (not particularly original to him) that UFOs are a modern manifestation of the same human imaginary world that created fairies and other supernatural beings.

… Which is not, of course, to say that they reflect the genuine existence of some fifth-dimensional fairyland, from whence morally ambiguous beings emerge to play tricks upon our race. Certainly for most sensible secular scientific-minded people, to say that our era’s close encounters are of the same type as encounters with the unseelie court of faerie is to say that they are all equally imaginary, proceeding from internalized fancies and hallucinatory substances and late-night wrong turns, plus some common evolved subconscious that fears shape-shifting tricksters in modern Nevada no less than in the mists around Ben Bulben.

Douthat is too kind to Vallée, glossing over the latter’s claims about interdimensional beings and a vast conspiracy of “messengers of deception” to control your thoughts. But Douthat agrees with me that the ancient astronaut theory is one form of a culture-wide search for a new form of religion that can restore something that was lost over the past centuries. Where we disagree is that Douthat, a Christian of rather orthodox faith, finds Christianity and the Christian God to be the true answer to the vaguely demonic, untrustworthy UFO religion: “So the glamour of U.F.O.s, like the glamour of faerie, is an understandable object of curiosity but a dangerous object for any kind of faith.”

The second sidelight comes to us from George Knapp’s interview with Harry Reid. George Knapp is the Las Vegas journalist who worked for Robert Bigelow for years and sparked Reid’s interest in UFOs by giving him a book about his investigation of the paranormal at Bigelow’s Skinwalker Ranch. In an interview with Reid, Knapp says that he heard from Pentagon officials that the UFO program was canceled in part due to “fear based on religious beliefs of those who felt UFOs might be satanic.” Knapp then asked Reid if that was true:

KNAPP: Did you ever hear that? Opposition that maybe this is something evil?

REID: Yes. I think that there’s a lot of people who didn’t like it for a number of reasons and religious—not affiliation—religious views of people, it didn’t fit what they wanted to spend money on.

We have come a long way from the 1950s, when UFOs were considered proof of angels flying by in divine chariots. Now the Christian UFO view is dominated by the allegation that space aliens are really demons trying to deceive us away from the Christian God by casting doubt on the supernatural and the divine. I can’t decide whether it is more upsetting that evangelical Christians would rather believe that demons drive flying saucers because they can’t fathom either that aliens could be real or, more logically, that UFOs are not in fact flying ships piloted by strange beings, or that evangelical Christian extremists have so penetrated the military that their illogical prejudices determine government policy.

This weekend Nick Redfern interpreted the above as a sidelong reference to the almost certainly fictitious Collins Elite demon-hunting UFO research group that he has consistently promoted for the better part of the last decade without providing evidence of its existence. Redfern believes that the Pentagon is studying demon-aliens (or, in his parlance, “nonhuman entities”) to learn how they plan to steal our souls. If Reid in any way endorses this nonsense, it is a good thing he is out of office.

72 Comments

Mary C Baker

12/26/2017 10:08:01 am

I applaud your kind review of Douthat's article. Too many crusaders against fringe beliefs regard traditional Christians (and other people of faith) as fringe believers. Fringe believers are clearly looking for something to believe in, in an increasingly secular world.

Nick Redfern link

12/26/2017 11:41:11 am

Jason:

The story - as you know - was given to me by a priest named Ray Boeche, who met with members of the group in November 1991, at the Cornhusker Hotel in Lincoln, Nebraska.

I interviewed Ray (audio-recorded) extensively in early 2007 and which ran into hours and hours of questions/conversation.

As you will also know, Boeche provided extensive material to me on the CE, something which allowed me to speak with some of them.

There is no doubt that the group existed - as a small think-tank group which believed that aliens are demons seeking our souls.

It should be noted that, as I note in my "Final Events" book, which tells the story of the group (and in just about every interview I have done on the book), I don't personally believe that these "things" are real demons from a real Hell. I don't even believe in Hell. Or Heaven. They are concepts designed to control people through fear and guilt.

Although, I do think, based on a few things, that there is an afterlife. But, organized religion and the mysteries of life after death are very much two different things.

But, I do believe that what religious people believe to be demons are actually something else, perhaps along the lines of John keel's "Ultraterrestrials."

As for the term "non-human entities," that has nothing to do with me, as you incorrectly suggest. That was the term that the people on the program called the entities they claimed to have made contact with. And it was the term they used in the meeting with Boeche in 91.

When you refer to the Collins Elite as "almost certainly fictitious" are you suggesting I am a liar? I certainly am not.

I can state with absolute certainty that the story as it was given to me by Ray Boeche is accurate.

Also with regard to that "almost certainly fictitious" statement, are you then suggesting that Ray Boeche lied to me? That's totally fucking laughable because I was able to speak with close to 10 people who worked with the program. Friends of Ray Boeche brought in to try and impress me for some obscure reasons? Not a chance.

Why do I believe the story of the group and its beliefs? Aside from the fact that I met some of them, and that the story has its origins with Boeche, there is the issue of the nature of the group.

Had this been some sort of weird hoax, then I think the people behind it would have created a far better image for the Collins Elite than they did. I'll explain what I mean by that. No-one ever portrayed this to me as some super-secret program with a massive budget etc etc.

It was a fairly small group of people who (as I note in the book) were always complaining about the lack of funding they had. This was far less some huge operation, and far more a small, obscure body which got a small amount of money.

To me at least, restraint and playing down the nature of the group (rather than suggesting it was something huge, powerful and on the level of the totally mythical MJ12) is not what I would expect from someone wanting to create a hoax to impress people.

Not that the following is going to help clear things up, but I can tell you that me and Boeche are not the only ones who met members of the group.

There are several others, and who I hope will finally go public. They are people who have worked in government and who have deep, personal interests in UFOs and who have written on the subject. What I will say is that in light of all the media coverage on this minor UFO program, by digging further it's not difficult to figure who those people are.

Look at a few people who have determined that yes there is a real UFO phenomenon, but that it's not ET-based, and that will give you a few clues to the identities of the people who met people from the group and who, in 2 cases, were denied permission to come on-board with the group.

Also, have you not wondered why Knapp brought up the issue of the accounts he heard from "Pentagon officials" and the "Satanic" angle? Maybe you should ask him.

So, all in all, yes there was and is such a group: I met people from the group; that is the absolute 100 percent truth, whether you choose to believe it or not. I don't believe they were dealing with demons, but they were dealing with something.

They were and still are (as far as I know) a small body which struggled to get funding. To me, that all sounds very plausible: a weird little group that most people in Govt don't want to provide $$$ to. In fact, it's not at all unlike the group that everyone got over-excited about just recently. Except for the demonic angle.

Joe Scales

12/26/2017 01:17:01 pm

Serious question. Having seen some your antics on television, I have to ask: Are you a purposeful fraud, profiting on fantastic non sequitur, or simply an imbecile?

12/26/2017 01:25:10 pm

I'm neither. I'm just someone who has a lot of controversial and weird beliefs and who airs those beliefs from time to time. PS: fuck u

12/26/2017 03:54:01 pm

Oh, so it's both then. Well, here's something for you to ponder. There is no life after death; only death after life.

Nick Redfern

12/26/2017 04:14:51 pm

Having controversial beliefs and theories and airing them does not make someone a fraud.

Some of the stuff I believe is without doubt some of the weirdest shit out there. But, if I think it's valid, then yes, I tell people. For example, I think that the Men in Black are real and that they are likely supernatural in nature. I suspect the Slenderman now exists in Tulpa form, and the list goes on.

Then, there are the more down to earth issues. For example, I don't believe at all that aliens crashed outside of Roswell, NM in 1947. I can't prove it, but I'm 99.999 percent sure it was a dark, controversial human experiment-based event.

Yes, i do really think there could be an afterlife, but if there isn't then, yep, it's just lights out. And if it's the latter, it won't matter because it will be the end anyway. Oblivion.

Americanegro

12/26/2017 06:26:03 pm

Dear Doonesbury character:

We frown, or so I've been told, on abusive language around here. Perhaps a little less fuck and a little more suicide on your part?

12/26/2017 06:31:01 pm

Not a chance.

12/26/2017 06:36:05 pm

If Jason doesn't like my approach and he wants to ban me, that's his right. It is, after all, his blog. But, I am who I am and people can take it or leave it. I don't give a shit either way.

Wim Van der Straeten

12/26/2017 03:12:50 pm

Maybe it's difficult for the group to get government funding because they're involved in nonsensical activities. Do you believe everything that people tell you?

12/26/2017 03:21:17 pm

No, of course I don't fucking believe everything I hear. I follow up to try and validate and corroborate and see where it leads. If it leads nowhere, then I move on to something else. In this case, it led to a lot.

But, your attempt at sarcasm does actually have some merit to it: that it was such a controversial area was indeed the main reason why the group was under-funded. It definitely was seen as a fringe-based issue. But, over the years, it got some influential people on-board.

An Over-Educated Grunt

12/26/2017 04:07:47 pm

Oh, well, there we go, it's obviously real because Nick Redfern says it is without providing any evidence that can actually be tested, out of respect for their anonymity, a delicate condition he respected so much that he made money off of them. That clears everything up, Nick Redfern told us they were real, and Nick Redfern is such an honorable man that he profits off what others have told him in confidence. We are fortunate to be graced with such a pillar of honesty as Nick Redfern, who by his mere assertion can prove or disprove whatever he chooses!

12/26/2017 04:42:17 pm

Huh??? Look, everyone in the book (Final Events, which tells the story of the Collins Elite) is named. What "anonymity" are you talking about???

Who told me things in confidence and then I used it without their knowledge? I have fucking never done that. You may not be aware of it (and if you don't believe me then ask Jason, or any author), but nearly all publishers (certainly ALL the publishers I am with) insist on all interviewees providing a release form for the publisher.

This requires the interviewee to provide their name, address, phone number and email. This is done to protect everyone when it comes to publishing someone's words. I think the most release forms I ever had to provide the publisher with was my "The Real Men in Black" book, which had more than 20 releases.

Yes, I have been told a lot of things in confidence, but when people want it in confidence, I do NOT publish it.

As for "profit" and "he made money," let's keep some fucking perspective. Me and Jason may not agree on much, but there are a couple of things which I'm sure we can agree on: (A) there are a lot of people who assume if you write a book (or books) you are rolling in money; and (B) there are a lot of people who think writers do what they do just for money.

If you want to earn a lot of money, drive a new car, and live in a huge house, etc etc, don't write paranormal books. Period. I certainly cannot earn a living from writing books. I have to fall back on other work. Jason has to ask for donations. I have other friends who barely scrape by. Do you see a pattern?

Now, I'm not saying that for sympathy, but I'm saying it because in your comment YOU brought up the matter of "money" and "profit" and all in relation to me. So, you had better get your facts straight if you want to bring that up and talk shit about me.

Anyone who thinks paranormal writers do what they do because it rakes in massive amounts of money and profits is so far away from the reality of the situation as you can get. I do what I do because I enjoy it, but it's not a stable career.

12/26/2017 05:31:20 pm

I must say, I've never seen Morton's Fork with so many tines.

12/26/2017 05:34:28 pm

Wrong. And it's very revealing that you won't answer my issues concerning who I used without permission etc etc.

12/26/2017 05:46:28 pm

Okay, Nick. So let's start with this: this is a blog post, where you are a commentator. This is not one of your published works. Here, you refer to"a few people," how you are "not the only ones," and people with "deep personal interests." Do these people have names, Nick? Or, let's count the tines on Morton's Fork, more likely, you're a fabulist, a conscious liar, or just willing to inflate what you've been told, knowing that "a few people" cannot be back-checked, and that if pressed you'll tell us you double pinkie swore not to name them, but you're perfectly willing to cash I'm on what they said.

A further tine - you don't actually believe what others tell you, but then, because you're not claiming their words for your own, you have no responsibility to check into the truth of what someone else says. That way, you're not technically a liar, you're just willing to take money off the rubes.

As for money, I don't care what your income is. If you run a dishonest game, and you do, and if that game brings in money, and yours does, I don't care if it's pennies or millions.

12/26/2017 06:25:35 pm

Yes, they do have names and they are names well known in Ufology and other aspects of the paranormal. Some of them worked for the government. Others, in the 1970s, worked on contracted programs and then continued that work after the government angle came to an end. They absolutely met with people from the Collins Elite.

Two of these people were denied access to the group and basically told to go away.

I even swear on my dead mother's ashes that the "go away" story is absolutely true. And, regardless of what you might think of me, I can assure I would not say something like that unless it was true and I knew it to be true.

I have 100 percent written permission to describe them as I did in the first comment in this thread, because it doesn't compromise them, and a couple of them still have government contracts. Will they go public one day? Yes, I hope so. But, they have no problem with me describing them as I did in this thread.

Also on the issue of other people than me talking about this:

As I said to Jason in the first comment, I find it interesting that no-one seems to have asked Knapp why he brought up the matter of the "Satanic" angle and intelligence officials. Perhaps you should...you might find a few things...There is far more to this story than just me and the people in the book.

There are various threads and bits and pieces like the above that some people have and which lead back to the Collins Elite.

No, I do not run a dishonest game. I tell people exactly what I have uncovered and I tell them exactly what i think of the discoveries etc.

For example, Final Events is the book which tells the story of the Collins Elite and the demonic UFOs issue. I specifically tell the readers that I wrote the book because I found it fascinating that a small group in Government was being funded to look at the UFO-demon angle.

But, I also pointed out - also specifically for the readers - that this was not my theory or belief. There was no deception: I made it very clear in the book itself that this was the story/theory of the group, it was not me upholding the "demons from Hell" theory.

Also, it's a cheap shot to bring up that issue of the couple of unnamed people I mentioned who I referred to above and who met some of the Collins Elite.

That amounts to just a couple of people who surfaced several years after the book came out in 2010. As a reminder, all of the people who are specifically in the book are named.

I'm not a liar in any form. I told the story exactly as it was. The interviewees had to provide release forms. The interviews with Ray Boeche were recorded, the interviews with the other sources, etc etc.

Jason Colavito link

12/26/2017 09:12:19 pm

It sounds to me that if there is anything at all to this "Collins Elite" it is probably closer akin to the informal Evangelical groups that operate in various government departments. Such a group wouldn't surprise me since there are so many cases of Evangelicals trying to colonize the military. But even if there were a club of religious kooks who think UFOs are demon chariots, it says nothing about the reality of UFOs.

12/26/2017 11:43:55 pm

Jason: Well, yes, that's exactly what they were. I note all that in the book!

I have pointed out many times that nearly all the members held strong religious beliefs. And they specifically recruited people with controversial religious-dominated beliefs. In other words, they were hardly open-minded to the things which they were investigating.

And they admitted that many of their conclusions were belief-driven, and I specifically wrote in Final Events how they had these warped and dangerous ideas of influencing the military and government to highly controversial evangelical beliefs and going further than that too.

And yes that is correct: their beliefs do not go any specific way to proving the reality of UFOs. Their beliefs dictated their conclusions. But none of this (for me, anyway) takes away the fact that this is still an intriguing story that I think is worth telling, primarily because of it being so strange.

That's what attracted me to the story: not so much that the Collins Elite were necessarily correct in their views, but the sheer weirdness of the story and how it was a great one to share - and to see where it might go when made public.

Certain people who commented on Final Events but never bothered to read it assumed (completely wrongly) that the Collins Elite was/is portrayed by me as some huge group, with a gigantic HQ like the NSA or the CIA. It was not/is not anything like that at all.

It was a very small number of people. There are indications of figures of maybe around 30 or 40 at one point, but I doubt much more than that, and at times the think-tank was much less than that. Maybe around only 15 or 16 in the early 80s until things picked up again to the 40s or so when Ray B was contacted in 1991. And that was when they attracted the attention of more people in government of an influential level.

I mention, for example, in the book as to how they tried to get extra funding to look into the abduction angle (from a demonic perspective) where they were complaining about budget cuts and a lack of increase in budgets, compared to other government programs of a defense nature..

As this shows, it was not hugely-funded or a priority for a lot of people, but it was seen as vital for the people in the group, which in some ways mirrors what Reid told Knapp about how (quote) "...it didn’t fit what they wanted to spend money on."

Tie that money comment to the "satanic" issue that Knapp was talking about and Reid replied on, and that sounds very much like Reid may have known something of the CE and the spending angle. Or lack of spending.

And, again, I would recommend you contacting Knapp about all what he publicly asked Reid, in relation to Knapp's comments about the "satanic" angle and "Pentagon officials." There is quite a bit more to the CE than is in my book. It just needs pulling out from those who know of it and who haven't gone public - at least not fully.

I can't prove it, but I would think from a few bits and pieces here and there that their budget, for more than a few years, was not even that of the Senator Reid project.

But, as I have always said, I didn't write the book to warn people that we are under demonic attack masquerading as aliens, or that some super-secret giant agency was fighting them.

Rather, I wrote the book because I genuinely thought it was both weird and amazing (and I still do) that a small, think-tank-type group in Govt was clandestinely being funded at the encouragement of certain figures in Govt who could secure the funding.

Of course, there are some angles which push things down far more controversial areas, such as Ray Boeche having seen photos of people said by the CE to have been killed in experiments designed to contact the "NHEs." But that's another story.

Terry Melanson

12/26/2017 11:47:16 am

The satanic angle stems from the so-called "Contactees" who were quoted in various accounts. Their message to the world - claimed to be from the aliens themselves - was thoroughly new age and anti-christian in intent. Evangelicals took notice right away; their reaction was predictable.

This context should be mentioned when discussing the situation as it is today.

Bob Jase

12/26/2017 12:16:15 pm

"some fifth-dimensional fairyland, from whence morally ambiguous beings emerge to play tricks upon our race"

Ah but is it Myxyzptlk or Myxyztplk? That is the true mystery.

Only Me

12/26/2017 01:30:49 pm

Let's ask Quisp or Bat-Mite. I'm sure they would know. :)

12/26/2017 03:10:47 pm

The comment of Douthat sounds like something that Lovecraft could have written.

Kal

12/26/2017 04:02:56 pm

NR had a good point until he lapsed eventually into cursing the f bomb at online comments, to which someone snarked back, and which he replied in kind.

"If you say you don't believe in faeries, somewhere a faerie dies."

Wasting govt. funds on a fantasy project about space beings that actually cannot be proven, either with video or with actual contact, or any known science, is not unlike wasting the same on commenting on blogs, which costs nothing.

The modern demon and angel thing has turned into aliens was a common trope even before Ancient Aliens. Maybe VD popularized it in 'Chariots' in a way, but it was around at least that long.

"If there are tricksters about bending our free will, then we can no longer take responsibility for our own stubborn or foolish actions, and can blame some unseen being that came in, like a boy who claims he did not break Gramdma's cookie jar, but that his elf friend did it, even though he is covered in cookie bits."

12/26/2017 05:08:10 pm

I curse because that's how I talk anyway when I get mad. If people attack me then, what, I'm supposed to be all polite etc??? I don't think so!!

12/26/2017 11:56:26 pm

1. It's called "not sinking to their level."
2. Asking for you to provide credible evidence is not an attack, it is science. Your failure to understand that is not anyone else's problem.
3. Consider that you get back what you put out in life, and that your attitude toward others is why you get such pushback. In short, if you want people to stop treating you like a jerk, stop being a jerk.
4. Descending into insult and mud-slinging will only prove my point and provide credible evidence not of your conspiracy-mongering, but that you are, in fact, a jerk.

12/27/2017 12:06:14 am

V: Not sinking to their level?

If I'm called an imbecile or a liar, of course I am going to hit back hard! What kind of person wouldn't hit back???

If you are attacked, you should respond. Period.

I don't have much respect for people who don't stand up for themselves.

That's one of the reasons why I wished Bernie Sanders would have led the Dems and won. He always said what he thought, fought to get his say, and people knew where they were with him.

12/27/2017 10:24:00 am

"If I'm called an imbecile or a liar, of course I am going to hit back hard! What kind of person wouldn't hit back??? "

If the shoe fits...

But yeah, it's useless to reason with imbeciles or liars. Putting them in their place is more apropos. Or ignoring them, once it is shown that they lack credibility. In this case, it's pretty obvious. But then again, we're not the target audience.

12/27/2017 10:31:26 am

Wrong. This thread is about the Collins Elite and my Final Events book. Where is the credibility issue? Everyone in the book is named (there are no "Mr. X" type sources), including the members of the group! All of the dates of the interviews (recorded) are listed. And everyone in the book had to provide the publisher with release forms.

12/27/2017 01:07:48 pm

Dude, you're a ghostbuster. Fraud is of its very essence.

12/27/2017 01:53:49 pm

There are frauds in all sorts of paranormal phenomena, whether it's UFOs, ghost-hunting, cryptozoology, etc.

But, while having such people in these fields is definitely unfortunate and a pain in the neck, it doesn't automatically mean that the subjects don't have merit. Nor does it mean that everyone else is a fraud.

You may not agree with me on anything of a paranormal nature, but the fact is I don't lie. I really do believe in a lot of totally off the wall shit (Nessies are shapeshifters - Kelpies; Slenderman is now existing in Tulpa form; Bigfoot is a dimension-hopper; etc etc).

You may think this is all totally crazy, and which is fine: I don't lose much sleep over what people think of me; I just continue to do what I do. Which is to write books which sell in the regions of a couple of thousand copies or less and - now and again - create a bit of controversy at Jason's blog.

But, for all my admittedly strange beliefs (yes, I am fine with admitting that a lot of what I accept as genuine is wild and really out there), I do not engage in fraud.

Now, I can't deny that on a few occasions I have been lied to, but I doubt there is anyone in paranormal research who hasn't had that happen to them too.

So, yes, much of what I believe it just unbelievable for others. But, that's not fraud. That's me having one view and another person having another view.

And, i should remind you of something I said earlier in this thread, most publishers are very careful - even strict - about ensuring they don't print fabricated material. Publishers insist on having those aforementioned release forms. The person has to provide all their contact info. That protects everyone.

Even if someone wanted to be so reckless and deceive a publisher or their readers, I think it would be incredibly difficult to do so with mainstream publishers requiring all the info on where the story came from, who the source is, how they can be contacted to verify they are being quoted accurately etc etc.

Maybe if someone self-published or went with a vanity press they could get away with it, but not when you are dealing with editors and, on some occasions, even lawyers.

That's why it gets me mad when people claim that the story of the Collins Elite is - as Jason worded it - "almost certainly fictitious." You don't have to believe the conclusions of the Collins Elite, but they were quoted accurately and honestly.

But, last night, Jason changed his opinion on the Collins Elite issue and stated that, "Such a group wouldn't surprise me since there are so many cases of Evangelicals trying to colonize the military."

That suggests he is more open to the existence of the group than he was a couple of days ago. It really does exist. But, in the bigger scheme of government, it's very small and even irrelevant to most.

12/27/2017 09:05:57 pm

Again. Half as long...

Mike in NH

12/28/2017 01:09:28 am

"And, i should remind you of something I said earlier in this thread, most publishers are very careful - even strict - about ensuring they don't print fabricated material."

If there's one thing my years in the Airborne, engineering and wrenching on cars has taught me, it's this: what you said there is completely untrue.

Google "Running With Scissors". Or "Hitler Diaries". Or "All The President's Men" or "Blind Ambition" the AUTOBIOGRAPHY that the author not only didn't write but didn't read. Testimony under oath, even from a lying weasel rat bastard serial perjurer beats your over use of "fuck" every trip of the train. You are the guy who keeps me from getting beat up in pubs because you get beat up.

12/28/2017 10:25:31 am

Mike in NH:

Look, here's the situation, and at least TRY and understand what I'm saying. All the publishers I write for require release forms, when a person is quoted in or interviewed for my books.

The releases are not mine, they are the publishers. Those release forms (which have to be mailed or emailed to the relevant interviewee and then sent back to the publisher) require the source of the material to provide their name, address, phone number, email address, etc etc.

The most important thing in all of this is that the releases prove to the publisher that I as the author did indeed interview the people I said I interviewed in the book.

Yes, in theory, any author could make up any old shit and lie and claim to have interviewed "Bill Jones" or "John Smith," etc etc. But, I would like to be a fly on the wall when the publisher then asks the author to have "Smith" or "Jones" provide release forms, and with all their contact info for the attorney.

In many cases, the publishers (or their attorney) have contacted the people who provided the releases and info to ensure that I quoted them accurately. This is perfectly normal in publishing.

One of the publishers actually has a clause in their release which requires the person to state that the data provided is truthful. And that legal clause requires a separate signature to the main signature at the foot of the page.

All of this is done to try and keep problems to an absolute minimum. Does an occasional hoaxed story/book sometimes get through? Well, yes, of course. But, I can only tell it from my own experience - and that is that with the release forms that relate to my books, they go just about as far as you can to ensure that (a) the author is truthful and (b) the interviewees are truthful and, more importantly, real people.

So, here's the situation: if a publisher takes careful steps, has their attorney involved in speaking to the interviewees, etc, and having the person signing the release-form stating that not only that they are fine about the data being used, but that also that what they have said for publication is the truth, then that is the best way to do it.

You say: "You are the guy who keeps me from getting beat up in pubs because you get beat up." No, actually. I can keep this shit going forever and a day, regardless of how many people chime in. I think the biggest thread I was debated on here at Jason's blog ran to about 140 comments. We have barely gotten started.

12/28/2017 10:39:36 am

argumentum ad nauseam

Never equate volume with quality. Or cohesiveness.

12/28/2017 10:51:00 am

Scales:

"argumentum ad nauseam." Yep, exactly.

If people keep continuing to question my honesty and - as Jason said - suggesting that the Collins Elite story in my Final Events book is "almost certainly fictitious" then OF COURSE I will continue to hit back, even if that requires me to repeat myself.

As I told the guy from NH, we have barely gotten started on this thread. I'm stretched out on the couch listening to music and I don't go back to work until January 2. So, I can keep this going and going and going.

12/29/2017 10:30:56 am

Fine. Go all you want. You are still a fraud and an imbecile. There are no words you can manage to plaster upon this site that will ever change that reality. So dance monkey. Dance.

12/29/2017 10:33:38 am

Nope, you are wrong on every level.

12/29/2017 01:04:53 pm

And here it is being the holiday season, I'd have figured you had ghosts to chase; or at least three of them, plus Marley. You fraudulent imbecile.

12/29/2017 01:10:50 pm

Christmas is for other kinds of spirits, the liquor-based ones which get you loaded.

12/29/2017 09:39:58 pm

My condolences then. You and your spirits, alone for the holidays once again.

12/29/2017 10:15:46 pm

"Wrong. This thread is about the Collins Elite and my Final Events book. Where is the credibility issue? Everyone in the book is named (there are no "Mr. X" type sources), including the members of the group! All of the dates of the interviews (recorded) are listed. And everyone in the book had to provide the publisher with release forms."

No, Nick Douchefern, that's what YOU are talking about. Most of us are talking about what a douche you are.

You were mentioned in the article almost as an afterthought; AFTER Douthat, Von Daniken, Vallee and the New York Times. But you see things in a different more douchey way.

12/26/2017 06:40:33 pm

But without addressing particular words because I've been cautioned, you do talk like a baby-raper Mr. Doonesbury.

12/26/2017 06:44:19 pm

No, I talk like someone who grew up in England, which is what I am.

I OBJECT TO NICK'S LANGUAGE

12/26/2017 07:44:46 pm

This comment is currently being held for moderation awaiting approval.

Nick's comments are not. Think what you will about that.

12/26/2017 09:06:15 pm

I don't hold any comments for moderation on purpose. The automatic spam filter might, however. It is rather random in what it flags but manages to catch most of the advertisements.

Seed of Bismuth

12/27/2017 11:43:17 am

Did the title of Jason's post remind Anyone else of the completely fictional story <i>The Demons at Rainbow Bridge</i>?

Ray Boeche

12/27/2017 04:51:12 pm

I am always amazed and astounded at the attacks on my friend Nick Redfern when the "Collins Elite" matter arises.

Not amazed and astounded that the attacks occur, but at the amazing and astounding intellectual naiveté demonstrated in the comments. What a prodigious display of mental excreta!

Nick and I have both simply reported on material that was shared with us. The information provided to me was completely unsolicited, and I chose — after an initial period of time spent checking the credentials of the two men who approached me — to share it with the research community.

I said then, as I do now, that I can neither confirm nor deny their account. Nick was able to find corroborating sources who had no connection with me.

So we have multiple sources confirming a narrative. Take it for what it is. If you're curious, do some digging yourself. If you dismiss the account, why bother to dignify it with a response?

As to the appalling lack of understanding (particularly on Jason Colavito's part) regarding classic, orthodox Christianity, its principal tenets, and its history, I fear I must lay that at the feet of a generation (or two) who have failed to learn how to reason, how to think, and how to argue with any degree of respect and intellectual acumen.

We observe in these comments the results of an educational system too heavily influenced by secular humanism, post-modernism, and deconstructionism.

But Aristotle still wins: A does not equal non-A. There is absolute truth.

Nick Redfern and I don't share a common spiritual belief, but we do share a healthy respect for one another, along with an unquenchable curiosity, and the will and ability to actually research an issue, correlate the information and present it in a cogent fashion. I have the greatest respect for Nick's research methods, his accuracy, his ability to bring fresh, evidence-based perspectives to these sorts of events.

Nick certainly doesn't need me to defend him, but I've seen nothing from any of the writers in the comment stream which begins to approach the level of care and concern for relating accurately the accounts of percipients of strange phenomena which Nick has produced.

Keep up the good work, Nick.

Post tenebras lux, my friend.

12/27/2017 04:54:27 pm

Thanks, Ray!

Mike Morgan

12/27/2017 09:35:50 pm

Whoa! Anyone else experiencing deja vu? Rev. Phil/Wolter?

sides have split open laughing

12/28/2017 10:02:52 am

Wow. Jason certainly got a response from this blog entry!
I youtubed some of NR's stuff to get a better handle on the man.
Let's just say I won't be buying any of the books he punts.
WHAT NONSENSE!
Of course, that's just MY opinion and just like botty holes, everyone has them.

Clete

12/28/2017 11:12:28 am

You should look up some of the other posts on this blog when Nick Redfern is mentioned. He practically buries this post with his inane and self-serving comments. When called on them, his reaction will usually end with "F...off or F...you.

12/28/2017 11:57:14 am

Clete:

You are running late: I have already told people about the earlier posts.

Here's how it is: if people want to debate me, then that's totally fine; I have zero problem with that at all. And i'm fairly sure that my replies would not be expletive-filled, because rational debate is a good thing when it comes to the world of the paranormal.

But, what we see in the comments here is NOT a rational debate of the data on the Collins Elite or my Final Events book. What we are seeing is an attack on me as a person and comments about me being a liar or promoting fictitious material.

I don't know who you really are and I don't even care who you are, but I would still hope (and, more importantly, I would expect) that if someone called you a liar in a public forum that you would hit back. And hit back hard.

Most of my expletive rants are actually not at all because people disagree with me, or they don't like this book or that book. None of that bothers me - because it shouldn't bother me. What makes me respond as I do is when they insist on questioning my personal honesty.

And when that line is crossed, that's when I hit back. And I don't stop. And I won't stop. I'm certainly not the kind of person who hides in the corner when attacked. I'll keep on for as long as people post to this thread.

Maybe, it's just me, but I see nothing wrong with attacking people when it's warranted. In July of this year me and UFO author Greg Bishop went to the annual Roswell UFO Festival. Within an hour of getting there, I was almost in a fist-fight with some prick who tried to tell me that the Nazis were "just misunderstood," or words very similar. Greg looked on as he sat at the book-table as the situation escalated. Mr. Prick finally got the message and skulked and then vanished. Just another day.

12/28/2017 03:26:00 pm

Nick, Nickster, The Man of Nickstinia, The Nickinator, Nickadopopolisbettybettyboomboom:

No one is attacking your book. You are being attacked because of your obvious superhigh level of doucheyness and your seemingly unstoppable drive to get yourself punched very hard in the face, a conclusion for which devoutly to be wished. To be "fuck you" level honest, the world would be a better place if you had been punched many times while in your crib. You're not fightin' Nazis if they're walking away. You're not a tough guy.

12/28/2017 03:48:53 pm

Correct: no one is attacking my book. Also correct: they are attacking me .

But you are dead wrong in your assessment.

If you go back, you will see I am referred to as a liar, and as someone who "inflates" things. The word "fraud" popped up too.

As this shows, people are attacking me in terms of suggesting I'm not an honest person. That's why I am hitting back and why I will continue to do so

You want to take a few swings at my jaw? Fucking go for it.

12/28/2017 04:29:36 pm

I don't need to fight a Nazi sympathizer who practically shit himself in the lecture room and who never showed his face again. But admittedly it would have been fun.

12/28/2017 05:32:41 pm

I don't need to narrowly avoid a "fist fight" at a Renaissance Faire to prove I'm a "hard man" like you do. I avoid fights every day by not being a douche to people.

You've convinced me through your incredible doucheyness that you are almost certainly the liar you say people accuse you of being. I have no need to "go back" and research you for I see the Summer's Eve on your very soul.

12/28/2017 05:58:28 pm

No, I really am not a liar, despite what people here state. Do I believe in, and promote, a lot of off the wall and extremely weird shit? Hell, yes. But that's because I truly do believe it.

The fact is that the story of the Collins Elite IS indeed true. Ray Boeche DID meet those guys from the DoD. I WAS able to take the story further because of all that. There ARE people who worked on contract work in the 1970s on certain Govt projects (projects that are now in the public domain) who met with people from the Collins Elite and who were essentially told to take a hike. They are people who believe in a UFO phenomenon but not an ET-based one. It's not hard to deduce who they are. If I was lying I would hardly be pushing and encouraging people to follow up on these threads.

Some people might say that believing in a Tulpa Slenderman, dimension-hopping Bigfoot, shape-shifting Nessies (the list goes on and on and on and on) is nuts. They might say it's even more nutty to write books on such things Fair enough; that's their opinion. But there is no lying involved.

12/28/2017 06:06:05 pm

My "incredible doucheyness," as you word it, is only a result of people publicly calling me a liar.

If people focused on just the data and it was a debate between people who disagreed on this issue or that issue, I pretty much guarantee my behavior would be non-confrontational. Chiefly because, as I have mentioned, a rational debate really is the way to go.

But, I cannot go that way if people here choose to go direct to the "he's a liar' approach, rather than questioning the merits or otherwise of the data.

I really am amazed that you seem to think I would (or should) react in a calm fashion when my honesty is questioned.

12/28/2017 06:29:47 pm

Here's an example of how things COULD go, and very occasionally DO go here at Jason's blog.

Check out the first 3 comments in this article from Jason:

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/did-marilyn-monroe-learn-jfks-ufo-secrets-steven-greet-says-yes-in-new-film

The first comment is from me, highlighting a new article from me.

The second comment is Jason offering a different perspective to my conclusion in that same article.

And the third comment is from me saying that yes, Jason could be right.

And there's not even a slightest bit of ranting or swearing anywhere.

And why is that? I'll tell you why. Because Jason was commenting on the information and giving a viable opinion and not launching into a statement about my honesty.

12/28/2017 08:19:15 pm

So about 35 minutes of multiple posts about how you're not a liar and trying to explain that you're not really a douche who talks tough about a "fist fight" that never happened at a Renaissance Faire.

"My "incredible doucheyness," as you word it, is only a result of people publicly calling me a liar."

I would respectfully suggest you have a problem with the concept of the horse and the cart.

"The first comment is from me, highlighting a new article from me." You said it, I douchedn't. It's probably silly to ask if you hear how tone-deaf you are.

12/28/2017 08:54:56 pm

Nope, I know exactly where things are at with the horse and cart.

Midlands Express

12/28/2017 08:56:11 pm

Good stuff Nick, don't take any guff from these goons!
You're the Peaky Blinder of Forteana

12/29/2017 02:46:30 pm

BTW: That "Nick Redfern" who just posted the "Sycophants" comment at 02:42 is not me. If Jason will give me the guy's email address I'll take things to the next step.

Americanegro link

12/29/2017 03:20:44 pm

Why do you need his email? So you can invite him to a Renaissance Faire and not have a fistfight? A simple "fuck you" here would probably suffice.

I'll demonstrate.

Fuck you.

"I'll take things to the next step." Them's fartin' words, pardner.

12/29/2017 03:24:32 pm

Why do I need his email? Why not???

12/29/2017 04:27:43 pm

I don't know the email of the guy who posted that, but it's the same person who spams this blog with a variety of comments under fake names, including mine. I keep banning his IP, but he keeps getting a new IP to circumvent it. I removed the comment.

12/29/2017 09:47:15 pm

What about that Ray guy? Was he not you too?

12/29/2017 02:51:40 pm

We are all Nick Redfern now.

Resistance is futile.

Eric Von Lichenschpfinchter

1/1/2018 03:42:30 pm

I think Nic is playing Jason's blog for free publicity! I have a secret cabal of individuals who have all the truth. I'll even tell you who they are! bonus. Must mean they are telling the truth. Maybe, just maybe one of us will buy a copy of Nic's book. Not.

1/1/2018 09:54:40 pm

I cannot imagine anyone with an I.Q. above that of a carrot would even consider paying good money for one of Nick Redfern's books. I do think, however, I would purchase one of his books, but that depends on the price of toilet paper.

1/2/2018 02:35:03 pm

As an old American Negro said to me on my first dishwashing job "The good Lord gave you two hands, didn't he?"

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Pentagon UFO Flap Fallout: God and Satan Battle for Control of UFO Beliefs

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