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Peter Levenda Is Upset with Me. He Also Called Me "Arrogant" and Driven by "Personal Resentment." Yes, He's a Full-Fledged Fringe Writer Now!

3/15/2017

47 Comments

 
​Good news, everyone! Peter Levenda is mad at me again! Or, to be more specific, he finds it upsetting and outrageous that I reviewed his book, Sekret Machines ​(my review: • Part 1 • Part 2 • Part 3 •), from the utterly biased perspective that a book which claims to be setting the stage to change humanity’s very conception of itself ought, at a minimum, to provide evidence to support such a proposition and maintain, at a minimum, logical consistency within itself. Since Levenda states upfront in the book that he had no intention to follow either of these propositions (explicitly saying that those looking for evidence will find “nothing here” for them), it necessarily follows that my evaluation of the book will differ from Levenda’s less rigorous intentions. Or, rather, he would have made that claim if he had read the review, which he didn’t, because he decided I am biased against him based on his choice to use my site’s search box to look for his own name and those of his friends Jacques Vallée and Graham Hancock
​Levenda posted part of a response in the comments on my blog before the system’s character limits cut him off, and he released the entire statement—amounting to more than 10 single-spaced pages!--on his Facebook page as nine lengthy comments. I’ll try to present some of the highlights, such as they are, as Levenda carefully attempted to use rhetoric to reverse the burden of proof and cast me as an ideologue trying to oppress him through unfair skepticism, thus absolving him of any criticisms of facts or evidence I made against him: “Your skepticism is obviously an ideological position, and you begin from your conclusions and work your way backward, cherry-picking data and then mischaracterizing it to bolster your agenda. This is basically what conspiracy theorists do, and it is ironic that you don’t recognize the same methodology in yourself.” Note carefully the reversal of the burden of proof, as though my questioning of his claims were an effort to make a counterargument rather than to say that Levenda failed to make a convincing prima facie case to overcome presumption. A counterargument would require much more data, but since I am not the claimant, it is not my job to prove that interdimensional spirit monsters don’t exist; rather, it was Levenda’s job to convince us that they do.
 
Just to clarify: As I laid out in The Cult of Alien Gods more than a decade ago (a book Levenda snarks that few have read), the ancient astronaut theory is not prima facie impossible. It is possible. It is even a hypothesis that can be tested, and should evidence be found in its favor, I would be happy to entertain it. The trouble remains that ancient astronaut theorists failed to provide that evidence.
 
Levenda is also upset about my use of “fringe” to describe opinions about history that are not mainstream. I’ve dealt with this problem many times, and I have even asked fringe types to propose a name for themselves that they would prefer. Graham Hancock nominated “alternative historians” many years ago, but recently the “alt-“ prefix has taken on a politically charged meaning. Other fringe writers refused to answer or gave me hate-filled responses. There isn’t really a good name, since our rhetorical bias in favor of the mainstream creates a negative connotation for any words describing those beyond the mainstream. Of course, since Levenda uses “skeptic” as a pejorative, his outrage is selective. He is also upset about me using the term “occultist” to describe him. I suppose it’s fair enough. He is a writer on the occult, a so-called “quantum” historian, a fellow-traveler in occult circles, and “expert on … occult and esoteric practices.” He said in a 2001 interview that “I’ve been around occult groups in New York since the late 1960s,” and last week even described the occult as “Levenda’s obsession.” He denied being a member of any specific occult group but crowed that “I was a familiar face around the campfire, so to speak.” He only pretends to believe in the occult sometimes. He wants credit for “exploring” alchemy and mysticism as the way and the light (he recently stated that alchemy could provide a Grand Unified Theory of reality), but doesn’t want to be described as an advocate of such beliefs, even though, beneath his careful list of qualifiers, it is the only logical interpretation of his “investigations.” He is prone to making dramatic statements of “truth” that can only be accepted by believing in the occult worldview. He is like the pundits on TV who scream bloody murder only against Democrats and then conclude by saying they are “independent” and never actually said to vote Republican.
 
He is very upset that I have pointed out that numerous sources have accused Levenda of being the brains behind the Simon Necronomicon, the work of fake occult lore masquerading as Lovecraft’s fictional grimoire, so to distract from that he focuses on the fact that I mistakenly described the (fictitious) “Simon” as “Greek” Orthodox instead of “Slavonic” Orthodox. (The mistake happened because “Simon” claimed to be Orthodox and to have a Greek Necronomicon.) This distracts from the inconvenient fact that the man who prefers not to be associated with Simon or the occult is also the credited copyright holder of Simon’s sequel to the Necronomicon, an occult work of ceremonial magic. While Levenda denies being the author, at the very least he is complicit in facilitating and promoting occult fantasies, and he would prefer we ignore that when it isn’t convenient. He is a journalist and historian when he wants mainstream respect, and happily rhapsodizes about the occult when he wants to shape audiences’ beliefs.
 
He foams with rage that I engaged in what he calls “character assassination” against Jacques Vallée because, in my “arrogance” (a theme of Levenda’s—that I don’t bow before old men), I decline to “respect” his achievements in ufology. He falsely claims I have criticized only one of Vallée’s books and therefore cannot judge Vallée’s philosophy, but this is not true. In addition to Wonders in the Sky, I have also identified similar methodological and research errors in his Passport to Magonia and at least two of his other books. He gets by on his measured tone and Gallic persona, but his work does not withstand scrutiny. If the facts are wrong, the theory explaining them doesn’t matter. “You seem to have a particular problem with people who have accomplished a great deal in their lives in their intellectual (and other) pursuits,” Levenda writes. No, just people who promote fantasy as reality. I’m rather dumfounded that Levenda reads criticism as arrogance and disapproval as lack of deference.
 
The duration of the first five Facebook comments of his criticism focus on elements of his biography and his feeling that my description of his previous books was unfair because it suggested that his histories of the “secret” role of Esoteric Hitlerism in world politics were overstated. He attempted to make a case for the importance of the occult in Nazism, and most mainstream historians do not credit the occult with as much influence as Levenda does, nor have the occult aspects of Nazism dominated in the postwar Neo-Nazi movement except among the weird Esoteric Hitlerists. To put it a bit more clearly, Levenda took issue with my characterization of his works on occult history as promoting the primacy of Nazism as a secret stream in world politics, and the occult as a driving force of Nazism. More than a decade ago, in The New Conspiracy Reader, Levenda outlined his view that the magical and the political were deeply “entwined,” and that Nazi occultism remained a “dangerous influence” on world politics. The irony that just last week he said that “occultism and esotericism were at the very root of the development of Nazism” is too rich. Apparently to describe Levenda’s own words is to do him grievous harm, for my plain reading of his many, many claims over the years doesn’t align with the carefully modulated version he prefers.
 
But all of this is Levenda’s dislike of how I have characterized his past work—and no one likes when other people characterize their work, because others’ impressions rarely match the self-image in our own minds. Clearly, Levenda thinks of himself as doing very different work than the impression he left on me. But none of it so far has anything to do with Sekret Machines.
 
Let’s get to that. In my review, I criticized Levenda for promoting Tom DeLonge’s purposeful mixture of fact and fiction as two prongs of UFO “disclosure.” I said, “If you cannot or will not relate what is happening in the real world without resorting to fiction, then you are a bad writer and researcher, a moral coward, or a fraud.” Levenda disapproved:
Them’s are fightin’ words, there, Jason! Can you back that up with anything other than animus, cowboy? Or does the lady protest too much, I wonder? I have already noted your lack of research integrity and in this article I am calling attention to your use of dishonest rhetorical devices to mislead your readers.
​Nope, no dishonesty there. I made my view clear: If DeLonge claims to have evidence that will change the world, then show it. If you have proof of aliens and UFOs and ancient astronauts, then lay it out. If you want to pretend, say some things can only be explained through fiction, and not show the proof, then you are not writing history but polemic. Show us the evidence, or go home. Levenda’s self-justification, posted online last week, that the proof is so self-evident that it can simply be assumed, is an end-run around making good on the promises DeLonge—the credited author of the book that Levenda assigns to himself on his blog—maintained he would deliver on.
 
OK, so by comment 7 have we finally gotten to my review? Almost! Levenda inadvertently confirmed my criticism of his book while thinking that he had cleverly attacked me, and that was fun. In my criticism, I noted that Levenda (a) declared explicitly that his approach was completely different from that of “ancient astronaut theorists” and (b) pretty much duplicated the famous 1973 documentary In Search of Ancient Astronauts, right down to the use of the cargo cult to frame the story, thus making his approach neither fresh nor unique. Levenda confirmed that he never did a literature review of his own subject—ancient astronaut theories—and therefore was talking out of his ass about being fresh and unique. He also misunderstood me, thinking I believed him to be claiming to have discovered the existence of cargo cults, a patent absurdity:
I never said I was the one who discovered the Cargo Cults. They were discussed in the anthro classes I took to get my graduate degree, and I believe one such cult appeared in the old film Mondo Cane. I never saw the In Search of Ancient Astronauts program you referenced, because (as any of my friends can attest, with some horror) I did not watch television or even own a television set during the entire decade of the 1970s. At any rate, I ignore much of what pretends to be journalism and historical research as presented on television shows. I prefer texts, and footnotes, and bibliographies. My research was not conducted by watching television, but through books, documents, and independent – personal – research, here and abroad.
​In short, he never checked what previous ancient astronaut theorists had done except for von Däniken and Sitchin, and thus missed the vast changes that the traditional ancient astronaut theory has undergone since the 1970s, particularly in delving into “consciousness” and alternate dimensions as key aspects of the “mystery,” exactly the points Levenda claims are unique to his approach.
 
But here’s a doozy: Regular readers know that I have devoted years to carefully gathering, translating, and studying primary source material related to the Watchers, the Nephilim, the Pillars of Wisdom, and the medieval pyramid mythology based on them. I have gathered the largest collection of texts on the subject ever put in one place (including dozens never before published in English), and I made almost all of them available to readers for free. Beyond these, I have also read a few more that, for copyright reasons, I am not able to publish here. It’s kind of my thing. Levenda assumes I am lying about this and accuses me of arrogance in stating the plain fact that this is a subject I know inside and out because I have done enormous amounts of work on it and actually did the primary source research:
“Certainly more than Levenda”? Seriously? What is the basis for that assumption? That is certainly not a statement one would expect to find in any sort of responsible review and smacks of an adolescent schoolyard taunt. How do you know how much primary source material I have read on this subject? In fact, how would I know how much you have read? How childish, this insistence that you are smarter or better-read than virtually everyone else: a claim that itself becomes your only evidence to prove your claim, an example of what is known as “begging the question”, another cheap rhetorical device that should be beneath you.
​It’s not a rhetorical device. Since Levenda has, by his own admission, never read my collection of texts, which contain obscurities that only a handful of specialists reference in footnotes, and texts that were hitherto only published in languages Levenda has never claimed to speak, I am quite confident that I have read more primary source ancient and medieval texts on the subject than Levenda has, though it is technically possible that he has read everything and simply chose to ignore all of it and be unable to use or cite any but the most obvious texts, even when they would strengthen his arguments. It isn’t arrogance but a plain statement of my special area of expertise, hard won through the kind of deep research that Levenda’s book skates over. I can compare Bar Hebraeus to al-Juzjani in their use of the remnants of Berossus in an Abrahamic Nephilim context. I can explain the altered traces of the Nephilim in the Akhbar al-zaman, chapter and verse. Levenda’s book simply accepts the Nephilim’s existence at face value, and by its own methodology fails to trace or compare the textual evidence over time, or the interactions among different literary traditions.
 
Levenda closes by accusing me of “personal resentment” and declaring preemptively that he will not read my review of his book, thereby freeing him from the necessity of having to deal with my actual criticisms of his facts and his claims. By making personal what was an evaluation of specific claims, Levenda attempts to neutralize criticism of his stale ideas and lack of evidence. 
47 Comments
Clete
3/15/2017 10:36:51 am

Jason, shame on you for reviewing Levenda's, and other fringe writers, and pointing out their shoddy research and lack of valid sources. They copy and paste each others "work", repeating the same tired arguments over and over. They then wonder why they are not taken seriously by real historians.

Reply
Only Me
3/15/2017 11:26:36 am

>>>By making personal what was an evaluation of specific claims, Levenda attempts to neutralize criticism of his stale ideas and lack of evidence.<<<

Simply exchange Levenda for the name of any fringe author or historian and that statement remains true.

What I really love is how none of these fringe types have apparently caught on that this is the Digital Age and when they make it a point to spread their "message" across as many platforms as possible, that becomes part of the public record. Then they have to deal with the embarrassment that comes with "I didn't say that/That's not what I said/I'm being taken out of context."

Reply
James
10/9/2022 04:32:56 pm

You're angry fool. Get back in the shallow end. Nobody cares what you think or feel. At the end of the day, you're a bad writer. Look how butt hurt you are. Levenda tore you up properly. Your responses come off like that of screaming toddler.

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At Risk
3/15/2017 12:10:49 pm

"Levenda is also upset about my use of “fringe” to describe opinions about history that are not mainstream. I’ve dealt with this problem many times, and I have even asked fringe types to propose a name for themselves that they would prefer. Graham Hancock nominated “alternative historians” many years ago, but recently the “alt-“ prefix has taken on a politically charged meaning. Other fringe writers refused to answer or gave me hate-filled responses. There isn’t really a good name, since our rhetorical bias in favor of the mainstream creates a negative connotation for any words describing those beyond the mainstream."

Jason, I do like the way you don't mind getting into the nitty-gritty of things, even though, like me, you often attract a lot of negativity when you express yourself. I think some of this is purposeful, like with me, also.

Though many here would like to throw rotten fruit and eggs at me for saying so, I see myself as a "perceived" fringe writer (well, I do like to write) who isn't really fringe at all. I would like to explain with an example:

I am not hinged to the extreme ideology of Scott Wolter, considered very fringe. However, I--like thousands of others interested in history--believe the message of the Kensington Runestone is true. This view is not extreme. The view that the message inscription on the KRS is numerically significant in a Masonic way seems fringe to me, because I take the message as purely true, as also do many, many others. My point is that there are different degrees of "fringe" just as there are different degrees of being skeptical...different levels of being skeptical.

Here is an associated example of how my views are not fringe, but mainstream--at least within the KRS audiences, relating to the KRS's inscription; here is one more ignored (or just not known about) logical follow-through pointing to the authenticity of both the KRS and its inscription....

The inscription refers to an "island, or peninsula-island." Well, there is sufficient topographical data to show that until a gully more than a dozen feet deep formed at the northwest area of the terrain under study, water around Runestone Hill was much deeper than it now is. Though the landscape around Runestone Hill now shows only a hint of once being an island, it is easy to see how much deeper water would have made the knoll into an island. The ridgeline now also in existence backs westward towards another knoll known as Skrael Hill, where there is presently still a bogus sign identifying stoneholes in the area as mooring stones! This ridgeline leading to Runestone Hill is likely why some versions of the translation have read "peninsula-island."

Winchell and Holand both saw this topograhical gully feature as a logical proof that the inscription on the KRS is true: In other words, nobody faking the inscription in the 1800's would have known that Runestone Hill was once an island. The centuries-old creation of the gully shows that water was once contained in the general "basin" area of the marshes and open water, and that repeated overflows caused this present lower, gully drainage.

So, I consider Masonic numbers to be fringe thinking concerning the KRS, while I see no reason for me to be considered fringe for pointing out what I just have, in understanding that the Kensington Runestone is what it says it is: a memorial to ten slain men...also, not a land-claim, as some would think.

So, there is a problem when trying to define fringe. Also, there is a problem when "skeptics" at a base level come across as hating anyone who might be labeled "fringe," whether that person is or not.

Again, it seems to me that "fringe" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, just as history is. Ideas concerning Columbus and his place in history seem fringe to me. I don't consider myself arrogant for pointing any of this out, any more than Jason should be considered as arrogant for pointing out what he considers to be absurdities.

What should I be called? How about an "Open-minded Historian?" This would be in contrast with an overly skeptical "Hidebound Historian."

The question is: can everybody be civil in a discourse on this subject, or will base-level skeptics become too outraged and full of hate that someone would have the audacity to question their audacity? (And then there is the very real issue of cyber-bullying to consider, which our new, beautiful First Lady will address.)

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BigNick
3/15/2017 03:29:05 pm

ATRISK: What is your background if you don't mind me asking. I am by no means an expert, and don't claim to be, but as one of the unclean masses, most of what I have read from a non Wolter related source says that the inscription is like modern language written in old runes. It does not match. I am not trying to be rude or a bully, but between KRS And stoneholes, it seems a 50/50 bet at best. How are you so sure? With no other artifacts around stone holes, how do you know for sure it wasn't farmers or natives, even. And can't you see how improper. Word usage and non existent runes would make people suspect a hoax? And if you can see how someone would suspect a hoax, then why don't you. Again, I know you know way more about this than I do, and I'm not try to attack or bully, I'm just trying to learn.

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Jim
3/15/2017 04:08:30 pm

BigNick, this topic (stoneholes) was heavily debated in the comment section of Andy White's Stonehole blog entries found here:

http://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/blog/category/stone-holes

At Risk (Gunn)(Bob Voyles) participated greatly so his point of view is well represented.

At Risk
3/15/2017 06:06:39 pm

BIGNICK, my background is that I'm now retired. I served in the military several years, missing out on Woodstock, and I was both a long-distance trucker and a state-level corrections officer for a while. I have a Bachelor's degree in Criminal/Social Justice. For your interest here, I first became interested in KRS-related material as a result of going to visit the Runestone Museum in Alexandria, MN, back on my 30th wedding anniversary, back in 2010. My wife has regretted the visit ever since....

I bought Wolter's Hooked X book while at the museum and I was immediately intrigued by the photos and descriptions of various "Norse evidences" in the MN region. I began making numerous trips out "in the field" right away, determined to find out more about these evidences, and perhaps even find things on my own through explorations. It was on one of these explorations that I discovered the so-called Code-stone close to the SD/MN border, which to this day is backing up, in miniature, what occurred nearby with the encoding of a group of special rocks...which I won't go into again right now.

"...the inscription is like modern language written in old runes. It does not match." This is simply not true. Some earlier researchers thought this, but it has since been found to be untrue. All the uses of language and runes do, in fact, match-up historically, and many staunch disbelievers in the KRS were left with egg on their faces. The language and use of runes on the KRS helps to prove its authenticity, quite the opposite of what you just said, BIGNICK.

I don't suspect a hoax because, for one reason and as stated above, the circumstances of the discovery place's geographical context coupled with a portion of the runic inscription tends to show that an island existed back several hundred years ago, agreeing with a portion of the message. There is also the issue, the exhaustive study, of the circumstances of the stunted tree which grew directly over the stone, clasping it within its roots. This tree was at least 40 years old, if not older, which involves a time when no pioneering farmers were in the area. A few fur trappers, that's about it. No Scandinavian farmers, like poor Olaf, were around to make and plant fake, well-made runestones.

Why ruin the reputation of Olaf Ohman any more than that of poor old Mrs. Davidson, who went to the trouble of signing an affidavit attesting, as an original land owner, to the fact that the so-called Erdahl Axe was found a foot and a half deep under a tree two feet across, in 1894. As it turns out, this axe was unearthed on the west bank of Davidson Lake, a lake with two skerries which is located a day's actual journey north from Runestone Hill--just as the KRS's inscription mentions. Both Runestone Hill and the ill-fated campsite are connected with the same Chippewa River.

Thanks for the sincere questions. The bottom line is that I'm not a gullible fool, yet I believe wholeheartedly that the KRS is just what it claims to be. It was attacked early on because of misunderstanding and ignorance, and unfortunately, it still comes under regular attack...but now more so because of the personalities involved.

My own personal belief is that Wolter did a lot of good in bringing the KRS back into a sort of limelight, but appendages were added that have caused the runestone to come under fresh and needless attack. Some persons would like certain defenders of the KRS to be attacked as much or more than the stone itself.

I don't know about all the "defenders," BIGNICK, but I believe the KRS can stand on its own. That's about it.

V
3/15/2017 06:30:01 pm

BigNick, as you can see by his own words, the man has no expertise whatsoever in the area and has simply decided that this is true on the basis that he WANTS it to be true. Gullible or not as a general rule, you can't shift him away from his stance that this is true and anyone who disagrees is attacking him personally--regardless of what they say.

Which is part of why I call him an idiot to his face now, so to speak. He's going to fly off the handle and accuse me of it anyway, so I might as well save him the pain of being both a complete moron AND a liar. What he never seems to have understood is that he's a moron not because he believes what he believes, but because he descends into infantile fits of rage when other people don't, and I just can't respect someone who's "retired" who still has temper tantrums the way he did when he was two.

So don't fall down the rabbit hole of even bothering to talk to him, BigNick. You'll just wind up relieved when he swears he'll never speak to you again, disappointed to find out that's a lie, and accused of being someone else's sock puppet just because you tell him to shut up and stop hijacking EVERY GODDAMN COMMENTS SECTION for his STUPID obsession.

At Risk
3/15/2017 06:35:53 pm

V, I should send your comment to our new, beautiful First Lady. She may care more about what you think than I do. You are a hateful person, whoever you are. If I were Jason, I would eliminate your posting, which can be construed as being much more disappointing than mine, I'm sure. Why don't you go away, instead of me, since I'm adding something and you're not? My name here is At Risk because of destructive, anonymous trolls like you.

V
3/16/2017 01:36:16 pm

BigNick, you can see precisely what I mean here.

RiverM
3/16/2017 02:07:39 pm

"...I first became interested in KRS-related material as a result of going to visit the Runestone Museum in Alexandria, MN, back on my 30th wedding anniversary, back in 2010. My wife has regretted the visit ever since...."

V, inflammatory insults are unnecessary. File for divorce already.

A Buddhist
3/15/2017 04:49:27 pm

2 points, if you will kindly accept them:

1. Thousands of people who study history regard the KRS as genuine? That means little, given that there are millions of people who study history at various levels. More impressive would be a qualification such as "out of the xxx people who specialize in [some specialized field relevant to revealing the KRS's authenticity], most accept that the KRS is authentic."

2. Do you have any evidenced that there was little awareness of how islands can become hills when the KRS was discovered? because a forger may have made a correct guess about the hill having once been an island in an effort to make the text seem to be a more authentic record of the past. A similar phenomenon can be seen in the writings of historical fiction authors, who research the past and attempt to reconstruct what they cannot know in an attempt to give their narratives veracity.

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At Risk
3/15/2017 06:30:21 pm

Unfortunately, A BUDDHIST, most historians do not think the KRS is authentic, plus most people have never heard of the KRS. I lived in MN a number of years before I heard about it...which is why I feel safer saying "thousands" rather than millions.

"...a forger may have made a correct guess about the hill having once been an island in an effort to make the text seem to be a more authentic record of the past."

This is a valid consideration, but this would have entailed having extensive knowledge of the terrain and topography--a very large area, and well before the Runestone was carved...other factors being considered, too, such as the aforementioned stunted tree situation showing many years passed since a new, young poplar tree sprouted over the stone. Who would be around then to waste time planting an elaborate hoax?

Conclusion: The KRS is authentic, but just not recognized as such yet by ardent--and to a large extent--uninformed, skeptics. Thanks for the questions.

V
3/16/2017 02:00:05 pm

Because farmers NEVER have any need to understand the terrain and topography of their lands, nope.

Americanegro, much as I hate to admit it, he IS right about one thing: there are plenty of places that qualify as "island-peninsulas," where because of tides or seasonal changes, the land is a peninsula with a land access for part of the time, and completely cut off from land access at other times. Rivers running high in the spring can turn peninsulas into islands, and then when the waters recede it's a peninsula again. The topography shows this as something different from something that was an island or a peninsula ALL the time.

The real problem is At Risk's claim that this spot was 4 miles inland and yet still an "island-peninsula," which makes NO sense whatsoever. Either it was an island-peninsula and thus still close by the water--as per the definition of peninsula AND island--or it was 4 miles inland. It makes NO sense as both, in context.

Also, http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2011/11/16/kensington-runestone-fakers-si/ Not necessarily more convincing than evidence for the stone's authenticity, but amusing nonetheless.

Americanegro
3/16/2017 07:37:36 pm

I have made peace with the idea that part of a peninsula can be washed out making it effectively and temporarily an island. I still take issue with the statement that "The inscription refers to an 'island, or peninsula-island'" from Mr. Risk as I doubt that he can read the inscription, just as I doubt Mr. Wolter can read it though he claims he knows "the language, script, and dialect". It is to Mr. Risk's credit that he does not make similar statements. I would expect a maritime, littoral or riverine people to distinguish among islands, peninsulas, and peninsula-islands.

Americanegro
3/15/2017 06:24:28 pm

You ARE "fringe". You just have a different obsession from Wolter's. "Peninsula-island"? Seriously dude? Pick one. You cannot have both.

I know that when I'm on a "land acquisition or up-taking expedition" and I find ten of my compatriots dead, "red with blood" my first impulse is to find a big rock and spend hours carving a memorial for them. Makes perfect sense. Pretty much standard procedure.

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At Risk
3/15/2017 06:46:46 pm

AMERICANEGRO, you're ignorance is showing. The KRS party left the scene of the massacre and traveled back down the Chippewa River and then overland east a few miles (about 4), to reach Runestone Hill. This presented a safe distance from the "river highway" to better safeguard against noise and campfire smoke.

I don't need to take a pick between "island" or "island-penisula." It has to do with the translation as well as the landscape. Either one can serve to prove my point. Why don't you attempt to be nice instead of pretending to be a nasty fellow?

Americanegro
3/15/2017 08:23:55 pm

You don't know what a peninsula is, do you?

A Buddhist
3/15/2017 08:50:53 pm

Actually, there are features in the world that could be described as island-penisulas. I immediately thought of Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic War, which describe Veneti fortresses as follows (3.12):

The sites of their towns were generally such that, being placed on extreme points [of land] and on promontories, they neither had an approach by land when the tide had rushed in from the main ocean, which always happens twice in the space of twelve hours; nor by ships, because, upon the tide ebbing again, the ships were likely to be dashed upon the shoals. Thus, by either circumstance, was the storming of their towns rendered difficult; and if at any time perchance the Veneti overpowered by the greatness of our works, (the sea having been excluded by a mound and large dams, and the latter being made almost equal in height to the walls of the town) had begun to despair of their fortunes; bringing up a large number of ships, of which they had a very great quantity, they carried off all their property and betook themselves to the nearest towns; there they again defended themselves by the same advantages of situation. They did this the more easily during a great part of the summer, because our ships were kept back by storms, and the difficulty of sailing was very great in that vast and open sea, with its strong tides and its harbors far apart and exceedingly few in number.

To me, this sounds like an island-peninsula, or series of such. But others may quibble about how substantial the shoals were.

Jason Colavito link
3/15/2017 08:58:04 pm

Does anything here have anything to do with Peter Levenda? If not, it is off topic.

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V
3/16/2017 02:01:28 pm

Short answer, Jason: No. It's "At Risk" taking over with his idiotic obsession again, just so he can accuse everyone around him of being haters--like we haven't just gotten sick and tired of having his obsession rammed down our throats over and over!

At Risk
3/16/2017 05:16:40 pm

I guess one answer may deserve another, then, since after-thoughts are apparently acceptable. V, you are the one I accuse of being a hater here, not anyone else, not even AMERICANEGRO.

Jason said: "Levenda is also upset about my use of “fringe” to describe opinions about history that are not mainstream. I’ve dealt with this problem many times...."

I then went on to use some perfectly good examples of how someone thought to be fringe (me) isn't really fringe at all, in an attempt to draw attention that the use of the word "fringe" is perhaps being overly-subdued, to put it lightly. I'm talking about the broad brush here, which I personally cannot help resenting a bit, since I'm also smeered by this same broad brush...at least here, where I'm at risk as a perceived "fringe" blog writer.

A few readers may have noticed that I purposely steered away from the troublesome stonehole rocks and the Norse Code-stone...and then a few blog readers/commenters asked me specific questions, which I didn't mind answering. I feel that sometimes these lines of communication are productive in adding new perspective to old debates. I constantly add new and deeper perspective, whenever possible, especially when asked sincere questions.

As an example, if there had not been the intrusive cyber-bullying abuse introduced by V, as expected, I may have been able to explain why A BUDDHIST's last comments were possibly right on target for maybe seeing a watery Runestone Hill as a moat-like, defensive position. No one, to my knowledge, has ever suggested that Runestone Hill may have been chosen-out for this landscape advantage, back before the centuries-old, ever deepening gully changed things so drastically.

Fawkes
3/17/2017 12:22:54 am

AtRisk. Off topic is off topic, you are the instigator with your repetitive garbage, take your fringe feelings ball and go home if you feel bullied. Your emotional investment is your problem.

At Risk
3/17/2017 12:08:45 pm

FAWKES, what did that troll-comment have to do with Levenda? Does this mean V is for vendetta?

Trolls are the real problem here, taking us off-track, like what happened at Andy's blog. One blog stands there because folks were decent, and another blog disappeared because of intrusive trolls like you, mean-spirited by nature, I guess. I may have had a chance for Andy's readers to help identify a strange metal object found next to the KRS, if not for trolls like you.

Self-identified trolls like you never add anything constructive to any debate, because they are destructive in nature. This is you, FAWKES.

titus pullo
3/15/2017 12:25:05 pm

Jason,

Given the nature of your work you should not be surprised at this behavior. you really are attacking their revenue streams hence the self rightgous attacks. First they ignore you, then ridicule you, then attack..as Gandhi said.

the only point is as a conservative/libertarian, we all are not fringe sexist/racists/selfish folks. Believe me you get the same reaction when you attack the "bible" of liberalism. When I ran for school board and questioned the whole "smaller classes are better" and "new math" I was attacked personally by the usual suspects..those that enrich themselves from the system. Same thing.

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A Buddhist
3/15/2017 08:55:05 pm

It is often alleged by critics of American libertarianism that American libertarians are people who enrich themselves from a less regulated market and so want to further deregulate the market to further enrich themselves - and those who benefit from market regulation can suffer as they wish.

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Bob Jase
3/15/2017 02:42:40 pm

Go for it Levenda!

Teach this guy Colavito a lesson and hold a press conference where you can show the world a real live 12 foot tall nephilim!

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Stephen Ante
3/15/2017 02:51:17 pm

"Them’s are fightin’ words, there, Jason! Can you back that up with anything other than animus, cowboy? Or does the lady protest too much, I wonder?"

Talk about smacking of school yard taunts...

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Shane Sullivan
3/15/2017 09:22:42 pm

And if he's going to affect that old-timey prospector vernacular, he might want to actually do it correctly.

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Kathleen
3/15/2017 10:01:19 pm

Agreed. Shifting from cowpoke to Hamlet is disconcerting.

Tom Mellett
3/16/2017 07:46:47 am

Jason,

I wrote directly to Peter, notifying him of this blog post and here is his reply:

-------------

"As I said before, this is just a waste of time for me.

The heading says it all: since I called him arrogant that makes me a fringe writer, thus proving my point. He's living down to my expectations.

So I won't be reading this or responding to it in any way."

---------------

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Jim
3/16/2017 11:40:59 am

Next time you correspond with him, tell him that sticking a finger in both ears and singing la-la-la-la-la-la-la continuously really helps.
I would be willing to bet he has Jason bookmarked.

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Jason Colavito link
3/16/2017 01:43:29 pm

Yup, that make sense. He speaks to me in the voice of Yosemite Sam ("Them's fightin' words!") and then takes umbrage that my headline offers cartoonish bemusement at his antics. He really is the "rootin'-est, tootin'-est, shootin'-est hombre north, south, east, and west of the Pecos."

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Americanegro
3/16/2017 04:21:01 pm

"Fringe" writers need to realize that it's their views and inept presentation of such views (whether fueled by OCD and Tourette's like one prolific poster here or not) that makes them "fringe".

Based on the correspondence the only unanswered question is how soon will we be seeing Mr. Levenda's reply.

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At Risk
3/17/2017 01:09:56 pm

You can't let it go, can you AMERICANEGRO? Right in Jason's face. Who has OCD, Joe?

A mild case didn't keep me from serving our Country at a time when cowards were going to Canada and Sweden to escape the draft...or in some cases, shooting themselves in the foot, like you keep doing here. At times, persistance may pay off, at other times it doesn't.

Joe Scales, Mike, AMERICANEGRO, over-blown skeptic, Wolter-hater, etc., who would have the nerve to call himself AMERICANEGRO, and then make a purposeful fool of himself here on this blog as though representing a black man? This is nervy. Like introducing yourself to Andy White's blog and causing havoc.

Give it up, for Jason's sake. As for myself, I will no longer defend myself against anonymous trash like you on this thread-line. Go ahead and have the last word, Cyber-Bully. Our new, beautiful First Lady will have a few choice words for you....

Tom Mellett
3/16/2017 08:24:36 am

Jason,

I'm friends with Jasun Horsley, who also has many issues with Peter's body of work, though from a much different angle than yours. In the last few weeks, he and I have noted the fact that the two most fiendish Internet critics of Peter Levenda are both named Jason, but with his spelling variant of Jasun, I proposed that there exists a Quantum Superposition of the two of you which is spelled Jasoun.

In any event, Jasun has just published his own new article about PL on Auticulture where he mentions you and links to your blogpost here.

I copy his concluding paragraph below.

-----------
Amphibious Ambitions: Simon Peter’s Dance with the Ambiguous

https://auticulture.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/amphibion-ambitions-simon-peters-dance-with-the-ambigious/


"I would hate to think Peter Levenda is feeling ganged up on by Ja-souns right now. (Perhaps he was a mutinous Argonaut in a past life?) But them’s the apples; if you spread a lot of shite around, be careful not to stand downwind.

Besides the strange recurrence of nominal archetypes, the only “coincidence” that I can see here is that of an author being called out, on more than one front, for his decades-spanning involvement in an elaborate and complex form of literary hoaxing.

It’s like an inversion of the Argonaut myth: Simon Peter, through his imitations of divine fiat, has called down the wrath of mortals."

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Joe Scales
3/16/2017 10:57:35 am

"He is like the pundits on TV who scream bloody murder only against Democrats and then conclude by saying they are “independent” and never actually said to vote Republican."

Or someone who champions only liberal causes while claiming to be moderate.

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Jason Colavito link
3/16/2017 11:59:22 am

It was just an example, not a declaration that there is only one type of idiot on TV.

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V
3/16/2017 02:14:47 pm

See, the problem is that to a lot of conservatives, there's no such thing as "moderate," so that kind of kills that comparison. Because if it's not conservative, it must be liberal. So how do you say someone "champions only liberal causes" and have an actual hard line to show that's not just you assuming that anything you don't agree with is "liberal"? Jason's example is a little easier to quantify than yours.

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Americanegro
3/16/2017 04:15:40 pm

The quick and dirty guideline is Independent = Republican and Progressive = Democrat. And Libertarian = Ineffective (yeah, yeah, Rand Paul blah blah)

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Joe Scales
3/17/2017 10:38:14 am

I thought Libertarians were the ones who wanted to bring their guns to their abortions?

Tony
3/17/2017 12:49:25 pm

Why Levenda isn't a top advisor for Trump is beyond me. He appears to have all the qualifications.

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Hanslune
3/19/2017 12:39:28 pm

You need a name for fringe?

Spongy thinking

Hard of thinking ideas, HOTI

Percy

Sitchining or Sitchinism

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Kathleen
3/19/2017 01:05:35 pm

So you could call a fringe writer a Spongmonkey.

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Chris
3/20/2017 11:13:30 am

I always liked "Not Even Wrong," like Rational Wiki utilizes to categorize certain opinions.

As in, so far removed from normal (or logic), it transcends the "right-wrong" spectrum.

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Chris
3/20/2017 11:13:43 am

I always liked "Not Even Wrong," like Rational Wiki utilizes to categorize certain opinions.

As in, so far removed from normal (or logic), it transcends the "right-wrong" spectrum.

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Balder link
4/27/2018 04:56:42 am

Thank you so much for publishing this critique. Every time I come across people who took the time to debunk some of these cooks, I am infinitely grateful for the time they saved me.

I listened to a Levenda interview on YouTube; Peter Levenda The True Secret Space Program and their Mandate, and became suspicious when listening to his weird ideas about Nazis, the Occult etc. So I googled a bit for the truth about Mr. Levenda, and found this page. I didn't even have to read the whole long story here. Soon I recognized the familiar pattern, and when I learned that Levenda is close to this Graham Hancock character, who has been debunked very well at another website.

I don't think these trolls like Hancock and Levenda are harmless clowns trying to make a buck. I think it is an evil thing to do to fill people’s minds with nonsense and fantasies pretending to be true.

These people make true "conspiracies" look bad! And there are enough confirmed conspiracies so we don't need ones which are made up by self absorbed egoistic charlatans for their own personal gain.

The problem is that these guys are quite good at their game, they tell interesting stories and part truths, mixed with their own nonsense; very seductive. I saved myself a lot of time by starting to search for criticism at the first small indications of inconsistencies and suspicious theories and explanations. So I thought I could use some of the time I saved by thanking the author of this site.

One more observation: It seems increasingly difficult to find sites like this via Google searches. Perhas sites like this should make an effort to keep lists of other sites and links before Google puts us all out of business.

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        • Lost Cities >
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      • Giants in the Earth >
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      • Science and History >
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      • Extreme History >
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        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
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        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
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        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
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        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
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        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
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      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
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        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
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      • Defining a Zombie
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      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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