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Pre-Modern UFOs and the Power of Dreams

12/5/2019

45 Comments

 
Last month, researcher Chris Aubeck gave an interview to Danish writer Thomas Brisson Jørgensen of the Vomanomalous blog on the subject of UFOs, particularly on accounts of pre-1947 UFO-style encounters with objects from the sky and their alleged occupants. In the interview he discusses some strange stories from old books, though without specific references and links, there is no way for me to identify the stories. Some are quite bizarre, like an old tale of a rocket-like ship from which emerged a being who got into a horseless carriage. If I find myself interested enough, I’ll ask him for the references, but today I am more concerned to discuss some of the broader themes that he discussed in the interview.
While we may differ somewhat on whether there is a “real” layer beneath the story of UFOs past and present, Aubeck is admirably working to trace the influence of culture, particularly mythology and literature, on the stories that witnesses have told about things they imagine falling from the sky. In the interview, he notes that much of pre-1947 ufology is bound up in the experience of trying to understand meteorites and interpret them through the lens of the technology and science fiction of the time: “I can see how it overlapped with stories of meteorites, for example. I can see how literature, culture and the advance of science turned many meteorites sightings into UFO stories, including the ones about passengers, or those with strange writing on them.” Many of the stories of meteorites with “writing” were either outright hoaxes or wishful thinking imposed on cracks and fissures in the rock surface.
 
He mentions, too, a Victorian story about a bust falling from the sky, and this recalls the legend told of Pindar that a statue of the Great Mother goddess fell from the sky in front of him. He was giving a lecture on a mountain when “there was heard a great noise, and a flame of lightning was seen descending, and Pindar saw that a stone image of the Mother had come down at their feet, and the oracle ordained that he should set up a shrine to the Mother” (trans. Jane Ellen Harrison). It sounds for all the world like a meteor that someone fancied resembled the rough icons of the gods used in the time before realistic statues superseded them. But many scholars consider the story to be a dream, and there lies the rub: In the old days, when the nights were dark and our minds weren’t filled with images from TV and movies, the accounts of dreams speak to a depth and realism that our sleep-deprived minds don’t seem to replicate as frequently. (Of course, in 1882, Popular Science attributed crazy dreams to theater visits, reading novels, and hearing music, so take it with a grain of salt.)
 
A doctor of spiritualist inclinations named J. Preston Moore wrote about it in 1890, only to lament that the intensity of dreams and their deeper meaning was being lost in the pressures of capitalism and commerce:
Without any effort on our part, living landscapes or mountains, hills, valleys, and plains, with running streams of water, and animal and vegetable life, as realistic and active as anything we see when awake, rise spontaneously in our dreams; and we never for a moment imagine that we are not in their midst and form part of them. No wonder the simple savage finds it easier to believe in the separation of soul and body, than to doubt his active participation in the chase of his dreams.
 
Sometimes we recognize the landscape, perhaps, as one we have seen in former dreams; but often it is entirely new to us, and holds our admiration with intenser appreciation than similar scenes do when we are awake.
 
If we enter a church, a hall, or a private house, instantly the interior is lit up and furnished to the minutest detail. We meet people whom we recognize; perhaps we have only met them before in our dreams; and others to whom we are introduced for the first time. We spend the evening in conversation and in other ways with one and another; perhaps, before we separate, make an appointment for some future time. The busy man of the day wakes in the morning, and, if he remembers it, dismisses it as a dream, unless the impression it has made upon him be too strong, as is sometimes the case, for him to throw it off without an after thought. But there is no money or fame in our dreams, and sooner or later they are relegated to the underground chambers of our nature, whence they came.
There is ample testimony to the same effect in the Victorian literature. It goes back much farther—Marcus Aurelius, in his Meditations, wrote that the gods gave him medical advice in his dreams (1.17) and spoke, albeit metaphorically, of the difficulty distinguishing between dreams and reality (6.31). In his 1829 book about Sir Thomas More, who died in 1535, the Romantic poet Robert Southey claimed to have met More’s ghost and wrote of how dreams might be mistaken for reality but reality could never be mistaken for dreams:
It was no dream, of this I was well assured; realities are never mistaken for dreams, though dreams may be mistaken for realities. Moreover I had long been accustomed in sleep to question my perceptions with a wakeful faculty of reason, and to detect their fallacy. But, as well may be supposed, my thoughts that night, sleeping as well as waking, were filled with this extraordinary interview; and when I arose the next morning it was not till I had called to mind every circumstance of time and place that I was convinced the apparition was real, and that I might again expect it.
It's pretty obvious that it was a dream, he knew it was a dream, and convinced himself otherwise. In fact, in a review of his book published shortly after the book, the reviewer wrote exactly that:
From all which an ordinary reasoner would infer, that this interview, being a dream, had been mistaken for a reality. The Doctor proceeds in another way. He informs us that he was well assured it was not a dream, because realities are never mistaken for dreams; that is, he first assumes that it was a reality, and then argues most cogently, that, this being the case, it could not possibly be a dream. To make the matter still more clear, and to convince us invincibly that it could not have been a dream mistaken for a reality, he adds that dreams are sometimes mistaken for realities: that is, that what we suspect to have taken place in this instance, does sometimes take place. A peculiar and extraordinary mode of arguing!
Yet today we see much less consideration of dreams as being convincing as a counterfeit reality. Whether this is due to our dreams being less grounded in reality due to exposure to media, or whether we are too sleep-deprived to have as many of these intense dreams, or whether we simply deny the intensity of dreams out of a misplaced desire to appear hyper-rational, I cannot say.
 
But I think it’s important to recognize that dreams can be so intense and convincing that people have felt compelled to write of them as though they really happened. And here is the bigger point I think is worth making: Studying UFO sightings in a vacuum will lead you down the primrose path. Studying only the category of UFO sightings is pointless, since it lacks context. Even studying sightings in the context of the art and literature of the time is only a partial solution. Instead, you have to understand the whole culture, as best we are able, to find the possibilities that might otherwise be invisible, like, in this case, the testimony that intense dreams were often mistaken for reality in those days, a concept largely alien to us, for whom any confusion between the two is subject to embarrassment and apologies.
 
That’s why it was interesting to see Aubeck talking about the process he and Jacques Vallée used to try to distinguish between different categories of supernatural encounters when writing Wonders in the Sky:
I mean, when I was writing Wonders in The Sky with Jacques, we argued a lot about this. He would say “look, here's a classic close encounter case” and I would say, “but this sounds more like a ghost to me” and then he would present another case, and it would sound to me like a vision of the Virgin Mary. Why try to argue that a virgin is a ufonaut or whatever? I just can’t understand that approach. And in the end we actually agreed to take out a lot of these more ambiguous close encounter stories.
In so doing, they accidentally stripped out the broader context and the continuum of experiences that reflect the broader culture that informed the subset of epiphanies that we would today call UFO sightings but in that time were part of a greater supernatural worldview.
45 Comments
William Fitzgerald
12/4/2019 11:54:56 pm

We seek enchantment to find meaning in life and death. Death is inevitable, but also deeply feared. However, might will die willingly if their death has meaning; when enchanted we understand ourselves outside of time, in that the longevity of any life is short compared to what our death will mean. That's why many fight for a causes they truly believe, knowing they could very well die because of it (and often do). That is the power of enhancement.

But, in our scientistic and technologically dominated society, being enchanted is more difficult. We rely on things like television, movies, maybe books still, but these are easy to isolate from our lives; suspend your belief for a few hours consuming a two-dimensional depiction inside a box, but then back to it. An interesting inverse of sorts to Plato's cave.

This is what the Romantics understood. But, you cannot ignore the profound effects of science and technology. Science fiction was thus a synthesis. Today we see that projected forward and in the destruction of previous means of meaning: some resort to a conspiracy-science. These are our later day Men of La Mancha (and this only leaves to name Sancho).

Reply
meaning in life and death
12/5/2019 08:09:48 am

Life is an accident
There is no "before life" therefore there is no "after life"
Life continues in genes and in our children
Get rational

Reply
William Fitzgerald
12/5/2019 09:14:34 am

If there is no "before life" nor "after life" then there can be no life. A life is a product of what came before and defined by the legacy it leaves.

As to whether life is an "accident" is an interesting question. But, irrelevant to what life is and its relationship with death.

But, my point wasn't if there is life after death, which clearly there is (albeit, how that manifests and whether it is eternal is debatable), but that people seek and sometimes find meaning in an inevitable death.

meaning in life and death
12/5/2019 09:16:48 am

Parapsychologists have tried to prove the existence of life after death by unlocking padlocks from beyond the grave. LOL.

So much for mystical shrinks who should know a lot better.

Meaning in an inevitable death
12/5/2019 09:19:32 am

"When death smiles at you in the face, what else can you do except to smile back"

Maximus Decimus Meridius

Unselfish gene
12/5/2019 12:20:19 pm

You dudes ought to read Home With God by Neale Donald Walsch. Of course life is eternal.

Meaning in an inevitable death
12/5/2019 12:55:06 pm

Stupidity is eternal, that can never die

Timothy Newman
12/6/2019 04:18:25 am

"It is not dead that can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even dumb can die."

Chris Aubeck
12/5/2019 04:44:15 am

Hi Jason. We did not “accidentally” strip out sightings that might have illustrated the wider Fortean landscape of our ancestors. I wanted to avoid them completely because my primary goal was to focus on UFO reports. I originally intended to make a book of around 250 interesting cases with quotes, references and some analysis. However, as a collaborative effort the result was quite different, as you know.

You’ll have noticed I did not follow up Wonders in the Sky with a succession of books or articles defending the supernatural nature of UFOs because I never have looked upon UFOs in that way, at least not since I was in my twenties (Im 48 now). I keep an open mind because I freely admit that “I don’t know how much I don’t know.” I also had one UFO sighting of my own that, while not proof of anything in any sense, gives me some insight into what being a “witness” is like. But every subsequent book or article I’ve published in English and in Spanish has been an attempt to contextualize historical UFO accounts as part of an evolution in human storytelling. (In fact I believe you would enjoy reading my Spanish book on OOPARTs, which I wrote with historian Juan Jose Sanchez Oro http://factorelblog.com/2017/02/22/ooparts-serie/). I did work with Martin Shough to produce Return to Magonia, a playful but ultimately skeptical technical analysis of twenty historical UFO reports. You might even enjoy that one, too. Martin's recent book, “Redemption of the Damned,” which analyses every UFO report collected by Fort, is an essential reference work that you may also find useful.

In Copenhagen I delivered a presentation to a group of Exopolitics believers on the folly of decontextualizing UFO accounts, trying hard to be constructive and not to offend anyone. I’m not the best public speaker and cringe when I watch myself back, but at least I try to shine a light in an area that has been ignored for too long. Lumping flying virgins with flying saucers is interesting if done properly but not if you're addressing people who will take it all literally. That would be a mistake, one I won’t knowingly make again.

Reply
UFO reports
12/5/2019 08:19:55 am

UFO reports are all lies, lies, lies and what we witness is how sincere and faithful true liars can be.

The radar networks of the 1980s - American, Russian, and several others - were plotting, tracking everything in space - anything as big as a pencil - in orbit around the earth - could be tracked by those radars. Is it conceivable, that we've been having visitors over many decades - trying to sneak up on us - landing in obscure places been seen by a few people - and not by those enormous tracking networks? When a visitation from space will really happen - it will be something spectacular - we'll be certain of it within five minutes.

Reply
WW3
12/15/2019 02:30:07 am


And this is why UFOs have been tracked on radar numerous times, in one instance, in the 60, such incident nearly started WW3.

Jason Colavito link
12/5/2019 08:34:09 am

I don't think we're really disagreeing at all, Chris. Every subject has to be defined, or else it quickly encompasses the entire universe. My issue is more that the category we today define as the UFO phenomenon is a modern creation made from slicing and dicing a wide range of experiences (real, imaginary, or whatever) into a new set of boxes to fit modern assumptions. I'm interested in the degree to which "UFOs" as a category are created by the categorization we impose on a broader human experience.

While I have you: I am curious about the 1857 ship flying over a village story you referenced. What book was that from?

Reply
chris aubeck
12/5/2019 09:37:16 am

I have replied to you by email.

chris aubeck
12/5/2019 10:37:34 am

The term “Unidentified Flying Object” is in itself a problem.

We don’t have an all-encompassing definition for all the crap we notice on the ground (from lost coins to dead animals, and every dark, twisted pea-sized fragment in between), or in the sea, so we are unlikely to find one for everything in the sky.

The term itself is famously problematic: “unidentified” doesn’t mean unidentifiable; “flying” should imply intentionality; “object” technically doesn’t include combusting gases or optical illusions. Aside from any errors, the reason Wonders in the Sky _doesn’t_ work is that it fails to define from the outset what criteria have been used to gather the stories into a single volume. Amazingly, the reason it _does_ work is exactly the same: anything goes if it echoes your pre-existing views.

I have always suggested keeping glowing angels and luminous discs in separate cages because the majority of UFO advocates don’t know what comparing them _means_.

.
12/5/2019 12:18:16 pm

"I have replied to you by email."

That's precious! Is the Neston UFO a secret?

chris aubeck
12/5/2019 12:20:53 pm

I don’t know what a Neston UFO is but I’ve offered Jason the chance to see an unpublished book chapter on the subject.

.
12/5/2019 12:41:26 pm

"Date: July 1857

Sighting Time:

Day/Night: evening

Location: Near Neston England

Urban or Rural: –

Entity Type: golden haired woman

Entity Description: unusual green clothes

Hynek Classification: CE-III (Close Encounter III) Close observation with animate beings associated with the object.

Duration:

No. of Object(s): 1=Craft 1 =Entity

Size of Object(s):

Distance to Object(s):

Shape of Object(s): round

Color of Object(s): gleaming

Number of Witnesses: 2

Source: Tom Slemen, quoting Charles Fort

Summary/Description: On the outskirts of town a young shepherd named Robert Clancy was tending his flock—and his sweetheart—when he noticed a round gleaming vessel sanding on three legs at the side of a field.

A golden haired woman in unusual green clothes stood by the unearthly craft watching Clancy and his girlfriend for a while, then waved and climbed into the vehicle, which afterwards took off into the sky and headed northwards. For months afterwards, no sheep would graze on the spot where the craft had stood."

Chris aubeck
12/5/2019 12:56:32 pm

Ah yes, thank you. That’s fake, it’s not in Fort at all. I don’t bother with fake hoaxes, that would be like tutting at Fred and Velma while they’re on a case.

Neston Primary Source
12/5/2019 01:01:08 pm

Second hand quote from Charles Fort - does Fort provide a source for that?

NESTON PRIMARY SOURCE
12/5/2019 01:03:34 pm

Source: Tom Slemen, quoting Charles Fort

http://www.thinkaboutitdocs.com/1857-neston-england-ufo-sighting/

chris aubeck
12/5/2019 01:13:56 pm

Nobody has a source for it, as far as I’m aware. It just takes typical post-Arnold motifs and strings them together: circular craft, landing legs, Nordic being, the color green, “radioactive” field. It’s set in 1857 possibly to be considered “way way way” older than the 1897 airship wave. I wouldn’t be shocked to learn Tom Slemens didn’t write it either, or that Neston comes from “UFO nest town” (AKA Warminster).

.
12/5/2019 01:18:15 pm

"I don’t bother with fake hoaxes"

So it's real hoaxes or nothing for you?

Chris aubeck
12/5/2019 01:33:19 pm

"I don’t bother with fake hoaxes"

“So it's real hoaxes or nothing for you?”

That’s almost right. Hoaxes, jokes, popular songs, dreams, short stories, parodies, pre-Arnold sketches, diary entries, drunken hallucinations, poetry, actual claims, scientific reports, social panics.... in fact anything that gives us a snapshot of the Fortean landscape fifty years before Arnold and beyond.

.
12/5/2019 08:19:20 pm

You're very selective about what made up unsourced stuff you're willing to pretend is sourced.

chris aubeck
12/5/2019 08:43:55 pm

“You're very selective about what made up unsourced stuff you're willing to pretend is sourced.”

I’m quite selective about which trolls I react to, if that helps.

.
12/6/2019 03:24:45 am

"Trolls" are the Jews of the 21st Century Reich.

Hey Anonymous
12/7/2019 06:11:07 am

It will soon be time for "born in a manger"
That, for you, will never be subjected to critical scrutiny.

Machala
12/5/2019 09:00:17 am

Chris, I read and enjoyed your collaborative effort with Juan Jose Sanchez Oro. I can't say the same about Wonders in the Sky with Jacques Vallée but that has more to do with the fact that I'm no Vallée fan, finding his incredulity as tedious as his writing style.

Reply
Skeptics
12/5/2019 09:14:34 am

Even skeptics (so-called) hold irrational beliefs.

Skeptic
12/5/2019 08:23:37 pm

Speak for yourself.

Paul
12/5/2019 12:44:44 pm

Soon there will be no such thing as UFO's. Everyone is glued to their smartphone and no one looks at the sky. Maybe there will be an app for that......

Reply
Iskanander
12/5/2019 09:16:46 pm

Hi, Jason.

You mention "Sleep Deprivation" twice.

Sleep dep causes more intense dreaming, not less.

Would you like me to post some links 'n stuff? Or do you not really care?

You're a humanities-guy, right? Not a STEM guy.

Reply
Kent
12/5/2019 09:38:32 pm

I noticed "sleep-deprived" X 2 as well.

Don't forget the gratuitous mention of "capitalism".

Reply
Iskanander
12/5/2019 09:45:14 pm

Yeah, got that too.

If this progresses though, it's going to just come right down on the secularism thing, with all this talk about "enchantment". Folks seem hungry for that Max Weber quote that Simon (Levenda) hijacked.

Anyway, it makes sense to me that he was all "Sleep Deprivation!" Because he's sleep deprived.

I suppose we'll see what the true appetite is here for the 'context' of this thread.

Iskander
12/5/2019 10:07:15 pm

Oh wait, KENT:

Did you mean to say that J is wrong about the "capitalism" for the same reasons that he's wrong about the sleep dep in regards to supporting his scree about dreaming and UFOs (Funny right? The Lovecraft guy's dreams about dreaming?)?

If so, I would agree.

But only within the context of a post-secularism.

Okay, I'm killing myself of laughter. Can I get a witness?

Kent
12/5/2019 11:14:02 pm

In my experience anyone who says "capitalism" is just trying to get laid. This includes Clark Kissinger and Marc Anderson and everyone involved in the "Fill Urine Jars in Campsites" protests, aka "Occupy Wall Street."

Caveman
12/8/2019 04:44:57 pm

Neston is located in The Wirral, in NW England, near Liverpool. They are still seeing UFOs there - https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/17786998.neston-resident-claims-spotted-ufo-hanging-washing/

Reply
Chris Aubeck
12/8/2019 04:47:47 pm

Thank you. Sadly that story isn't from 1857 at all, or in Fort's books. It’s a modern fake given a spurious old date.

Reply
.
12/8/2019 07:20:48 pm

Yet you accept "Hoaxes, jokes, popular songs, dreams, short stories, parodies, pre-Arnold sketches, diary entries, drunken hallucinations, poetry..."

Do you see the disconnect?

Chris Aubeck
12/8/2019 07:25:47 pm

Yes, very much so. If you’d bothered to read the interview or if you knew anything about me or about UFO history at all, you’d know my focus is always on pre-1947 stories only. The Neston case is post-1947. It contributes nothing to our understanding of how the UFO mythos developed. The “disconnect” is substantial.

Not that you care, because you obviously have some kind of axe to grind.

.
12/8/2019 09:16:18 pm

If you can't source it how do you know it's post-1947?

You seem to think you know a lot about my beliefs and I would never begrudge you that.

But if you can't source it how do you know it's post 1947?

"This undated story, falsely attributed to Charles Fort, is clearly post 1947 because..."

Now you go.

Chris Aubeck
12/8/2019 09:37:35 pm

I started looking into the Neston story some time before 2012. The original source said:

****
The UFO that landed at Neston in 1857
by Tom Slemen

Charles Fort (1874-1932) famed student of the unknown,
scoured thousands of newspapers, books and journals in
the search for reports that defied explanation. One
such report that Fort unearthed was a 19th century
encounter with a flying saucer.

In July 1857, on the outskirts of Neston, England, a
young shepherd named Robert Clancy was tending his
flock - and his sweetheart - when he noticed a "round
gleaming vessel" standing on three legs at the
side of a field. A "golden haired woman" in unusual
green clothes stood by the unearthly craft watching
Clancy and his girlfriend for a while, then waved and
climbed into the vehicle, which afterwards took
off into the sky and headed northwards. For months
afterwards, no sheep would graze on the spot where the
craft had stood. This incident took place ninety years
before the 'Modern' Flying Saucer era began with
Kenneth Arnold's sighting of UFOs in 1947.

****

After checking Fort I naturally checked every publication available, plus newspaper reports and other sources. I checked back repeatedly over the following years but nothing even remotely similar emerged. This is not odd, because every element in that story belongs to the post-Arnold period. It’s like trying to find a story about Pokemon characters from before they were invented, it just won’t turn up. I probably have every account of an alleged alien visitor from the 1850-1880 period on file, it’s easy to trace the development of each motif. The Neston story is composed of post-1947 motifs, and seems to have been concocted after 2000.

I would love to be proved wrong.

Reply
Chris Aubeck
12/8/2019 07:35:25 pm

Let me save you the trouble of carrying on: You’re trying to catch me in some kind of contradiction, on the basis that I’m interested in hoaxes (as well as other kinds of sources) so I ought to be interested in all hoaxes. This clearly stems from your belief that I accept that there’s a physical reality underlying UFO reports, one to do with paranormal or extraterrestrial intervention. However, that’s not my take at all. I like to keep an open mind but I’m not trying to prove or sell a theory involving aliens or souls or psychic powers or even Jungian archetypes. I’m afraid you’re wasting your time trying to catch me out.

Reply
Iskanander
12/13/2019 12:27:32 am

You're all right. You know that?

I think JV kept (I believe he made the decision) because it highlighted the most important part of what he had collected: a continuum of people that he perceived as having some sort of mental illness.

He's not equipped to assess that. I know, but he let the journal-style format speak for what he thought was the crux of the issue. I'll cut him some slack for his short-sightedness cuz he's just so French.

But I'm wondering: What's your excuse?

Reply
chris aubeck
12/13/2019 03:16:57 am

“You're all right. You know that?”

Thank you.

“I think JV kept (I believe he made the decision)”

Are you trying to say JV chose the content of the book? There are some words missing I think.

“because it highlighted the most important part of what he had collected: a continuum of people that he perceived as having some sort of mental illness.”

I don’t think he sees witnesses as having a mental illness.

“He's not equipped to assess that.”

He’s not able to determine whether witnesses were mentally ill? Yes, we are not medical doctors.

“I know, but he let the journal-style format speak for what he thought was the crux of the issue.”

The crux of the issue? I’m trying to follow you, honestly.

“I'll cut him some slack for his short-sightedness cuz he's just so French.”

Sorry, I don’t follow, even if French short-sightedness were a thing.

“But I'm wondering: What's your excuse?”

My excuse for allowing errors into a book, or for agreeing to participate? I’m happy to dialogue but I sort of need to know what we're talking about first, sorry.


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