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Review of "America: Nation of the Goddess" by Alan Butler and Janet Wolter (Part 1)

11/17/2015

66 Comments

 
America: Nation of the Goddess is the new book from Alan Butler, with whom I have history, and Janet Wolter, the wife of Scott Wolter, with whom I also have history. This makes the book somewhat interesting in that Butler’s onetime ​writing partner, Christopher Knight, once threatened legal action against me for reviewing one of their joint books without permission, and Wolter’s husband’s TV network once threatened legal action against me for publishing a book criticizing his TV show without their permission. Anyway, the lesser halves of these teams have teamed up to explore what Scott Wolter, in his introduction to the volume, calls the “greatest coup d’état” in history, in which the descendants of Jesus—the “Venus Families”—took over the world. And they did it, the authors claim, with the help of the Grange. Yes, the farming organization. They came to this conclusion, as they say in the acknowledgements, with the help of Committee Films, whose writers shared their research for America Unearthed with the authors.
Butler and Mrs. Wolter (henceforth Wolter, unless otherwise specified) are baffled by the very word “grange.” For those of you who don’t know (and why would you), the word “grange” comes from a medieval term for a farmhouse, granica villa, in turn derived ultimately from the Latin word for grain, granum. The English word was a semi-obscure way of saying farm without sounding too low class, which is why it appealed to bombastic Victorians. The word, in its earlier form, made its way into place names like Newgrange (formerly spelled New-Grange), the English name for an Irish monument, which means literally “the new farm.”
 
Butler and Wolter, who choose to write of themselves from the perspective of an omniscient narrator describing the actions of both, feel that the National Grange of the Order of Patrons of Husbandry (the farming organization) and the medieval European granges run by Cistercian monks share a hidden connection beyond a shared terminology. They propose that Cistercian granges were intimately tied to the Knights Templar just as the Grange was intimately linked with the Freemasons, with both Templars and Freemasons sharing a relationship to each other. Eight founders of the Grange, they say, were “known to be practicing Freemasons.” According to the authors all of these groups, but especially the Grange, worship the sacred feminine as part of a cult going back five thousand years or more. The authors claim that they experienced an “inexplicable” sense of mystical calm when they entered a Grange hall, convincing them that there was truth to the goddess theology they deduced for it. They say that this touches “a deeply subconscious part of humanity that is so ancient and so instinctive it simply ‘feels’ right.” It is, they say, in a word, pagan.
 
They assert that the world follows what I recognize as a version of Robert Graves’s White Goddess nonsense, which is to say that a prehistoric matriarchal goddess cult was snuffed out by the Abrahamic faiths and yet somehow continued underground, working to undermine Yahweh and restore the sacred feminine.
 
It’s probably worth mentioning here that the bibliography contains almost no primary sources, no historical documents, and 8 books by Alan Butler and 2 by Scott Wolter, alongside those of other fringe writers. In short, it’s shitty scholarship even by the low standards of fringe history. Seriously: Not a single original historical document is mentioned in the bibliography, and (as far as I have read) not a single primary source is quoted or even discussed in the text of the book. Even ancient astronaut theorists manage to cite something original to back up their claims.
 
Chapter 1: The Patrons of Husbandry
The first chapter gives a potted history of the Grange and its founder, Oliver Kelly, whose farm is located near the Wolters’ home in Minnesota and sparked Wolter’s interest in the group. Butler and Wolter say that Kelly became the U.S. official in charge of restoring southern farming after the Civil War due to his Masonic connections and the South’s love of Masonry. (One might think this would argue against Masonry as a force controlling America, but I guess losing the Civil War was all part of their goddess-worshiping plan.) Butler says that the Grange was designed on the lines of Masonry (which is true) so Southerners wouldn’t feel like they were getting advice from the Federal government (this is also true).
 
Butler and Wolter think that there is an occult reason that the Grange chose to model its meetings on what the Victorians imagined the Eleusinian Mysteries were like. This wasn’t just because Demeter (Latin: Ceres) was the goddess of grain and agriculture and thus a fanciful way for Classics-loving Victorians to symbolize farming; no, it was all a conspiracy.
 
To understand this, they say, we must see that the Grange was organized along the lines of the Cistercian Order—a strange comparison given that the Grange was open to both sexes (like the Mysteries) but the Cistercians, Templars, and Masons who supposedly controlled it were not. Anyway, the authors claim that the Grange having central offices and local chapter-houses was identical to the Cistercians having mother and daughter houses, conveniently leaving out the fact that the Cistercians owned the farms they ran, while the Grange was a meeting house for independent farmers who did not share ownership of their land. Nevertheless, the authors declare that starting new chapters and affiliating with a national organization, and giving each member voting rights, makes the two organizations “virtually identical.” It’s also the way that fraternities operate, but I don’t want to give them any ideas. Are frat boys also secret goddess worshipers? Make your own jokes here.
 
Anyway, in reality the Grange modeled its organization on the medieval manor system known as grange-houses, which the Cistercians also used, thus accounting for the similarity.
 
Chapter 2: The Need for Diversion and Theater
Butler, who is not American, lectures readers that poor rural people in America were “extremely fond of entertainment,” as opposed to wealthy rich folk, which is why the Grange fooled them into conformity through the theatrical elements of ritual. This leads the authors to explain that the Grange benefited from its female members—without noting that none of the other organizations supposedly standing behind the group let women in. Why might that be? How do we account for supposed slavish copying of Cistercians while jettisoning key elements of what made the Cistercians who they were: Catholicism, monkish vows, gender separation, etc.? This can all be swept under the rug because our authors say that the more they study the Grange “the greater became our admiration” for its founders. In other words, emotion overtook logic.
 
Butler and Wolter make a lot of assertions about the Grange’s supposed “enlightened paganism,” but the galley proofs provided by Inner Traditions contain no footnotes or documentation, and there is no evidence that the writers ever consulted the archives of the Grange—an organization that still exists. They dismiss the fact that Classical mythology has served symbolic purposes in Western culture since the fall of the Roman Empire, but especially in the nineteenth century, for a conspiracy theory that the Roman agricultural goddesses (Pomona, Flora, and Ceres) mentioned in Grange ritual were chosen because they were aspects of a Stone Age Earth Goddess (a claim taken right from Robert Graves’s White Goddess, while the truth is much more complex). They also don’t think that the Grange simply modeled their rituals on Freemasonry but instead have some secret connection to some ancient original. Note, though, that this isn’t always clear; at other times they call the Grange the “child” of Freemasonry.
 
The authors assert that because the sixth and seventh degrees of the Grange are not publicly known (they say no information has ever leaked out about them), this proves that they are the true degrees of the Eleusinian Mysteries of ancient Greece, kept secret for thousands of years. These degrees are so secret that a description was published in a newspaper in 1954, and published photos of the rituals appeared in Life in 1938.
 
The authors conclude from all of this that the Grange provides a true window into the real secrets of Freemasonry.
 
Chapter 3: Not a Secret Society But a Society with “Secrets”
This chapter is an overview of the history of Freemasonry, as seen by Butler and Wolter from their particularly skewed perspective. This material will be familiar to most readers of Butler’s books or viewers of Scott Wolter’s TV show, so there is little need to recap it here. I will note, however, that Butler and Mrs. Wolter (whose contribution seems heavily subsumed under Butler’s) reject Scott Wolter’s view of an eternal Freemasonry dating back to Egypt and the First Temple of Solomon. Instead, Bulter calls these “fairy tales,” and the ancient figures depicted in them as having “no genuine historical authenticity.” (Recall that Scott Wolter believes the patriarch Enoch literally buried real tablets of wisdom on the Temple Mount.) Instead Butler and Mrs. Wolter trace Freemasonry back to France and various groups of Benedictine monks, particularly the Tironensians, who emphasized manual labor and stone-working. This would seem to be derivative of the fact that the first known Masonic lodge, founded in 1598 (the authors say 1140), at Kilwinning in Ayrshire, was affiliated with a Tironensian abbey. However, in order to make the conspiracy work, Butler and Wolter have to try to connect the Tironensians to the Cistercians and Templars. The trouble is that the Cistercians and Tironensians operated in the same places and competed for the same lands and members; they were not working together, according to Kathleen Thompson’s The Monks of Tiron (Cambridge U Press, 2014), a history of the order.
 
The chapter concludes by tracing the known history of early Masonry, with detours into Sinclair family and Rosslyn Chapel conspiracies, drawing on Butler’s earlier books on the subjects.
 
Having taken all the trouble to establish the (not unreasonable, though unproved) claim that Scottish Masonry took influence from the Tironensian monks’ interest in the Jerusalem Temple and stonework (a claim borrowed from Christopher Knight), Butler and Wolter throw it overboard to say that the Knights Templar were the real influence on Masonry, which is the subject for the next chapter and tomorrow’s blog. 
66 Comments
Shane Sullivan
11/17/2015 02:35:39 pm

So the sacred feminine isn't Mary Magdalene anymore. Instead it's a paleolithic goddess worshipped in secret by social clubs that wouldn't admit women.

I guess that makes sense. It's just like all those Renaissance Christian clubs that wouldn't let in guys with beards.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
11/17/2015 02:39:53 pm

Wait until tomorrow when the Watchers show up. It gets weirder.

Reply
Shane Sullivan
11/17/2015 06:05:23 pm

The Watchers. Naturally!

I've been reading Mark Morrisson's Modern Alchemy, and the section I just started is "Occult Intersections: Atomic Alchemy in Atlantis and the Book of Enoch", so of course the Watchers myth came up when radiochemist Frederick Soddy speculated that a prehistoric civilization blew itself up with nuclear science run amok.

Incidentally, I don't know if you've read anything about Soddy, but he was apparently one of the first (if not the first) to speculate that Atlanteans not only had nuclear technology, but destroyed themselves with it. Given how early on he started this line of conjecture, the idea of ancient atomic weapons fringe theorists love so much probably started with him as well.

Pam
11/17/2015 02:55:07 pm

It sounds as if they're laying the groundwork for the Eleusinian Mysteries to be the "original something " and the Templars as the guardians of the Mysteries to which they'll connect Jesus and the rest.

It's my understanding that no one really knows the rituals, rites, etc. of the Eleusinian Mysteries, only bits and pieces.



Reply
Nobody Knows
11/17/2015 04:09:34 pm

The Eleusinian Mysteries were centred on LSD - claviceps purpurea - Demeter was the Corn Goddess.

R. Gordon Wasson, Albert Hofmann, Carl A. P. Ruck, "The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries" (New York: Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich, 1978).

Reply
Nobody Knows
11/17/2015 04:10:59 pm

claviceps purpurea is a parasitical fungi that grows on rye and barley - it's water-soluble and turns into LSD.

Only Me
11/17/2015 08:01:36 pm

Here's an interesting article that looks deeper into the hypothesis put forth by Wasson, Hoffman and Ruck.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/valencic.htm

Nobody Knows
11/17/2015 08:45:15 pm

The claim that the Eleusinian Mysteries involved claviceps purpurea is based on the fact that the mysteries were about the goddess Demeter, corresponding to the Roman Goddess Ceres. Therefore its straightforward to suggest ergot was involved.. Of course, nobody left behind any texts or inscriptions giving identities of drugs, preparation or dosage, so it remains a theory. It's basic common sense why they never did that.

The theory has been challenged, and in turn those who claim the Eleusinian mysteries were about ergot have produced replies to the objections, like this one

from the pages of
ELEUSIS: Journal of Psychoactive Plants and Compounds
New Series 4, 2000
Mixing the Kykeon

http://www.psychedelic-library.org/Mixing%20the%20Kykeon%20Final%20Draft.pdf

Only Me
11/17/2015 09:26:10 pm

The arguments for and against the hypothesis are equally plausible.

As has been noted, the only known source for the ingredients comes from the Hymn to Demeter. Without, as you said, the actual identities of the drugs, preparation and dosage, any claim as to what kykeon might have been is circumstantial.

Nobody Knows
11/17/2015 09:27:43 pm

Ah, but there was tripping going on in the Eleusinian mysteries - saying anything else would be "Hands off drugs and religion".

Only Me
11/17/2015 09:41:11 pm

It wasn't just at the mysteries. Alcibiades got into trouble for sneaking some kykeon back to his crib for his own private party with some friends. That must have been some damn good stuff to risk the scandal that came after.

Nobody Knows
11/17/2015 09:50:41 pm

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0007,015:22

Plutarch, Life of Alcibiades, 22

Pam
11/18/2015 12:54:48 am

Nobody :

Demeter was more complex than a Corn Goddess, though she was that as well. The drug imbibing is still debated,as far as I know, among scholars.

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 03:23:31 am

Pam.

The scholars you are referring to are those who are like Nelson, who put his telescope to his blind eye.

R. Gordon Wasson referred to them.

Novody Knows
11/18/2015 03:27:13 am

Shamanism is accepted among some scholars as long as it is confined to Central and South America - as far away from European history as possible,

We can't have classical scholars lecturing about drug tripping in ancient Greece and definitely can't have Biblical scholars doing the same about the Middle East.

David Bradbury
11/18/2015 08:50:01 am

The Alcibiades reference isn't directly helpful. The description of the incident in chapter 19 specifically accuses Alcibiades of:
"mysteriohn par' oinon apomimehseis"- "imitating the Mysteries with wine".
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0181%3Achapter%3D19

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 09:46:38 am

I think Wasson et al refer to fragments of Plutarch of Alcibiades that are untranslated

An Over-Educated Grunt
11/18/2015 09:56:36 am

Translation: "My reference doesn't actually say what I thought it said! Oops, I meant a DIFFERENT Plutarch that's never been translated!"

Besides, so far as I know, mainstream scholarship isn't exactly denying drug use in ancient Greece. The vapors at Delphi, the entire point of massive drunken revelries like the Dionysian festivals, the inhalation of vapors by the Sibyl to induce a prophetic state, the fact that "symposium" colloquially means "getting drunk together"... exactly nobody is claiming these things are made up. That man's made of straw.

Pam
11/18/2015 01:20:59 pm

Nobody:

I have no issue with ancient drug use in Europe or anywhere as part of religious ritual. I see it as a possible/probable thing.

The problem is that , beyond the mention of what the potion contained in "Hymn Of Demeter", there are really no specifics about the recipe for the kykeon. I'm also surprised that you seem not to care that some of the later accounts of the Mysteries were from Christians...I'd call them hostile witnesses.

Much is speculation, some knowledgeable and some not, when it comes to the specifics of the Eleusian Mysteries.

You don't want to acknowledge the debate among scholars that's fine with me. I enjoy both sides of the argument.

David Bradbury
11/18/2015 01:49:34 pm

In "The Road to Eleusis", the Alcibiades reference is specifically Chapter 19, as I quoted. However, the writers (p89) read much more into it than is actually present in the text, which as far as I can see makes no suggestion that the Eleusinian holy objects, the "hiera", were borrowed by Alcibiades for his drunken party. They are perhaps confused by the text's reference to mutilation of the "Hermae"- busts of Hermes placed around Athens to mark property borders etc.- which happened at the same time as Alcibiades' party.

gary robinson
11/28/2015 02:49:30 pm

Have to get me some rye and barley. Haha

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 10:03:22 am

Typical comment from someone who relies on juvenile encyclopaedias and reduces what they DON'T KNOW into "conspiracies".

I will look through Wasson et al later today and send a transcript.

Reply
An Over-Educated Grunt
11/18/2015 10:31:06 am

Typical Hodor from someone who insists they've made a new and vital discovery on a weekly basis, only to have it pointed out that they're neither the first nor most effective apostle of said discovery.

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 10:47:22 am

Knowledge of psychedelic substances preceded the existence of the science of anthropology. The information was known about long before the establishment of the first schools.

An Over-Educated Grunt
11/18/2015 11:41:45 am

Careful making sweeping statements like that without a time machine, sweetheart, you might fall over.

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 11:55:56 am

Sculptures on Babylonian reliefs, Egyptian artwork
They show psychoactive flora

One of the coffins of the Egyptian mummies showed that the pharaoh was covered in Lotus leaves. The Lotus is a psychoactive substance.,

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 11:57:24 am

Page 58 of Wasson's et al "Road to Eleusis" contains a straightforward reference to Alcibiades by Plutarch, claiming the hiera (the receptacle) was transportable and was shown by Alcibiades to a group of friends at his house in Athens.

Page 59 refers to a portion of the Demes, a comedy by Eupolis written shortly after the scandal of the profanation of the Mystery in the fifth century B.C. It confirms the profanation did entail the drinking of the sacred kykeon and suggests that the authors' identification of the drug it contained was correct. In the comedy, an informer explains to a judge how he had come upon someone who had obviously been drinking the potion since he had barley groats on his moustache. The accused had bribed the informer to say that it was simply porridge and not the potion that he had drunk. By a possible pun, the comedian may even indicate that the incriminating "crumbs of barley" were "purples of barley".

An Over-Educated Grunt
11/18/2015 12:13:22 pm

Again, though, I point you to my comment above: THESE ARE NOT NEW THINGS. You're not making huge, applecart-upsetting revelations here. These are widely accepted, especially in Greece because we have better documentation there than anywhere else. Are you seriously suggesting that there's a scholarly debate about whether the Oracle was, at least occasionally, huffing fumes? Are you trying to suggest that scholars dispute whether large-scale consumption of alcohol was central to much of Greek religious life? Are you arguing that scholars don't believe the Sibyl wasn't inhaling some sort of burnt plant? Because that's what you're saying by "
We can't have classical scholars lecturing about drug tripping in ancient Greece and definitely can't have Biblical scholars doing the same about the Middle East," and I pulled all of those from memory as well-known, documented cases.

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 12:17:07 pm

The Egyptian Blue Water-lily, N. caerulea, opens its flowers in the morning and then sinks beneath the water at dusk, while the Egyptian White Water-lily, N. lotus, flowers at night and closes in the morning. This symbolises the Egyptian separation of deities and is a motif associated with Egyptian beliefs concerning death and the afterlife. The recent discovery of psychedelic properties of the blue lotus may also have been known to the Egyptians and explains its ceremonial role. Remains of both flowers have been found in the burial tomb of Ramesses II. (Boris Lariushin, Nymphaeaceae Family, 2012)

David Bradbury
11/18/2015 01:52:01 pm

"Page 58 of Wasson's et al "Road to Eleusis" contains a straightforward reference to Alcibiades"

See my comment above about this (looks like we're using different editions).

Ysne
11/17/2015 04:00:00 pm

There is a typo in the first sentence for the section titled chapter 1. 'found' should be 'founder'.

Reply
Mike Jones
11/17/2015 05:12:46 pm

This is all amazingly foolish. Do y'all suspect that ANYONE will believe this? Certainly not anyone with any background in or participation in the Grange. How can someone possibly write a book ascribing all kinds of incredible importance to the Grange and NOT STUDY THE GRANGE'S OWN ARCHIVES! Besides, everyone knows the real heavy hitters were the Oddfellows. Their meeting halls are portals to other dimensions because Nephilim gathered there for potlucks.

Reply
Duke of URL VFM #391
11/18/2015 02:01:24 pm

Don't forget those Elks and Moose! Secret societies of shape-changers!

Reply
Mike Jones
11/17/2015 05:17:58 pm

The Amazon preview page for this book claims that all baseball diamonds are temples to the goddess. I kid you not.

Reply
Duke of URL VFM #391
11/18/2015 02:03:03 pm

Worshiping baseball? What a foolish idea. EVERYONE knows the only true religion is Football (and I don't mean soccer).

Reply
Kal
11/17/2015 05:37:23 pm

These cats were down by the grange hall one night and after a night of drinkin the moonshine and corn spirits got drunk and mistook the moos of the dairy cows for the secret words of the sacred order. Yah when they fell into the cow pie they bathed in the odor until purified by the well water of the farmer, and thought of animal husbandry as the mystery divine, while it might have just been thinly viewed jokes about farmhands and their cattle. Moo. Nuthin against farmhands and all. But at 3 am on some corn mash, them lowin's is purdy. Ha. Oh man, this should be a scene from something!

Reply
Tony
11/18/2015 08:49:30 am

I can see Simon & Schuster's marketing campaign now: "Stephen King's 'Moojo.' You'll never drink milk again."

Reply
lurkster
11/17/2015 07:09:48 pm

Of all the wacky nonsense covered on this blog, this has got to be one of the weirdest mashups of fringe theories I ever heard.

Reply
An Over-Educated Grunt
11/17/2015 07:21:23 pm

Clearly you weren't around for Scott Wolter and the Cookies of Truth then.

Reply
Duke of URL VFM #391
11/18/2015 02:04:37 pm

Cookies of Truth??? Alright, Grunt, it's really nasty of you to drop that here without a link! WTF?

An Over-Educated Grunt
11/18/2015 02:45:38 pm

Oh come on, I KNOW you were around for the Templar Oreo nonsense!

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/review-of-scott-wolters-akhenaten-to-the-founding-fathers-final-part

I plead that I posted from my phone, which doesn't do page switching very well.

Duke of URL VFM #391
11/19/2015 11:24:11 am

Oh, okay - I just didn't make the connection.

lurkster
11/19/2015 11:36:32 am

Oh I was. But it gave me a craving for Orios cookies 'n creme icecream, and satisfying that urge became the predominate take-away point.

Bob Jase
11/17/2015 07:40:54 pm

Know what the most successful secret society in history is? Of course not, its secret - duh.

Reply
Clete
11/17/2015 09:18:50 pm

Jason, I guess you are somewhat luckier in a way from the rest of us. You get to read this shit in galley proofs, I assume sent to you by the publisher. The rest of us would have to actually pay to read this crap. You are unlucky in one way, however, you have to read this crap to review it. We are lucky because you save us wasting our time and money on it.

Reply
Steve StC
11/17/2015 10:08:08 pm

That's right "Clete" (or whoever you are), Jason gets to read it and come here to report how much he hated it. Then you and your ilk get to chime in how much you hate it even though you haven't read it.

What fun.

Reply
Only Me
11/17/2015 10:38:53 pm

Then there's Steve.

"I hate this blog. Let me continue reappearing on this blog so I can make sure you understand just how much I hate this blog. I haven't figured out nobody cares how I feel."

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 04:26:54 am

Overturning accepted scholarship is admirable if it is deserving.
Like for example the suggestion that mind expanding drugs were responsible for the origin of human civilization,

And it's no good mainstream scholarship rejecting this fact - the existence of drugs during the nineteenth century was severely suppressed and it failed to achieve anything at all - Madame Blavatsky and Aleister Crowley founded their own religions based on drug taking (Theosophy and The Book of The Law).

The troll Krampus
11/18/2015 10:48:22 am

That's the gist of it. The Cult of Colavito. When the Master speaks, they listen and throw in their two cent's worth of agreement. They feel like they belong to something that makes them feel intellectually safe and that they matter. It's pathetic.

Joe Scales
11/18/2015 12:12:04 pm

Unlike blogs by some on the fringe, with sales to push and products to defend, this one allows free debate where posts do not have to be "approved". You are free to criticize the host in nearly any manner you wish, according to your intellect; or lack thereof.

Clete
11/18/2015 12:18:26 pm

I was wondering where you were at. You show up with your moronic comments, have you been asleep? Maybe you have been too busy masturbating over a picture of Scott Wolter to reply.

killbuck
11/17/2015 09:23:11 pm

I am disappointed. Surely the Kensington Rune Stone must figure into this, or a hooked X somewhere. I mean, where is the thematic continuity here?

Oh, there is a part two for the review coming.

Perhaps I spoke to soon.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
11/17/2015 09:36:44 pm

You did. It's for tomorrow, with the Watchers.

Reply
killbuck
11/18/2015 10:55:49 pm

I'm shocked, simply shocked.

Duke of URL VFM #391
11/18/2015 01:20:32 pm

"Eight founders of the Grange, they say, were known to be practicing Freemasons.”
Just wait until they find out that Joseph Smith was a "practicing" (I'm not clear on WTF that means) Freemason, and patterned much of the religion he invented (LDS) after Masonic organization/ritual.

Reply
Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 02:09:58 pm

And the Mormons believed Jesus was married.

Reply
Pam
11/18/2015 02:27:29 pm

Nobody :

They also believe that each patriarch who "dies" in good standing with their church becomes a god of their own planet/world. Jesus was just a man (according to their beliefs ) who was elevated to god-hood in just this way. Their beliefs are more gnostic than not. Of course they would believe he was married.

Their understanding of Jesus is miles away from the mainstream Christian view.

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 02:35:35 pm

Pam,

That was really cute.

Mormons believed Jesus was married because they practiced polygamy.

A reason for everything.

Pam
11/18/2015 02:42:59 pm

As cute as my comment was, and it was very cute, it was also factual. Polygamy existed amongst the early LDS, but polygamy wasn't the reason for believing Jesus was married.

You're simply adorable in your ignorance.

An Over-Educated Grunt
11/18/2015 02:48:13 pm

Not only did she not say that, nothing she said could even be simplified down that far. You could equally easily say "Mormons believed Jesus was married because they wear magic underwear." Their understanding of Jesus IS miles away from mainstream Christianity. Since "traveling to North America" is hardly in keeping with the Nicene Creed, it's pretty hard to reconcile Mormonism with mainstream Christianity. You don't need to invoke polygamy, magic underwear, or post-Christ revelatory prophets to see that, but they all help.

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 07:07:08 pm

I mentioned that Mormons believed that Jesus Christ was married because they practiced polygamy. I don't have to ask for anyone's permission to do that.

Pam's cute comments have nothing to do with what I decide to say.

Pam
11/18/2015 07:29:39 pm

Nobody:

You're the one framed my comment using "cute" as a pejorative. I simply gave you the same courtesy you gave me when I replied. I have yet to see anyone suggest that you need permission to reply in any way you see fit. However, with that freedom to say what you wish comes the responsibility for the results.

Only bullies expect no push back.

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 08:23:33 pm

I repeat my earlier statement above at 14:09 before someone interjected:

>>And the Mormons believed Jesus was married<<

I elaborated that Mormons believed Jesus Christ was married because they practiced polygamy - natural progression from one statement to another.

That's it. No more nonsense.

Nobody Knows
11/18/2015 08:26:02 pm

And to clarify the subject matter further, the Morrnon belief that Jesus Christ was married cannot be traced back to its founder Joseph Smith.

Sir Knight William
11/22/2015 10:01:46 pm

As a master Mason and sworn Knight Templar of the American Commandry, this makes me laugh. At one time, most men belonged to the local Masonic lodge so of course some of the founders of all organizations were Masons. It's a very old fraternity with generations of members thus these jokers can make up most anything and have a Masonic tie.

Reply
lady christine link
1/7/2016 06:31:21 am

What does it mean to be justified? Essentially, it’s a legal term that means to examine something and pronounce it free of any guilt. Picture this. A man is accused of a serious crime against another person.
When He had been baptized, Jesus…suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

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        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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