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Review of America Unearthed S01E02: Medieval Desert Mystery

12/30/2012

133 Comments

 
A word of explanation before I get into the heart of today’s review: I’ve received some questions and/or complaints about not reviewing America Unearthed on the day it airs. H2 airs both Ancient Aliens and America Unearthed on Friday nights, but I simply am not able to stay up until all hours composing reviews of these shows. Yes, I understand that the Onion’s A.V. Club can post reviews of programs within hours of airing, but (a) they only have to offer opinions, not research, and (b) they get paid to do it. I do my best, but I only have time to analyze one program per day, so America Unearthed reviews will continue to be posted a day after my Ancient Aliens reviews.

America Unearthed “Medieval Desert Mystery” (S01E02) begins with a dramatic reenactment of a couple of white guys dying in the desert in view of some Native Americans. We then cut to “forensic geologist” Scott Wolter in his laboratory reading a letter from a concerned viewer who claims to know of a stone in Arizona covered in medieval European runes.

So we travel to the Mustang Mountains in Sierra Vista in southern Arizona to view the rune stone in an over-produced montage of a convoy of SUVs traveling beneath overly-dramatic music. This leads to a lengthy montage of rock climbing until we finally come to a stone covered in what look like runes. I’m not a runic expert, so I can’t read the text; nevertheless, at first glance the letters looked more like stylized Latin letters than the Northern European runic alphabets of Scandinavia (derived from Old Italic) I had seen before. This is because they are meant to be Anglo-Saxon runes, which look much more like Latin letters. The key, of course, is that when the cave site was discovered in 1984 and recorded by the Arizona State Museum, the runes weren’t there, so they are almost certainly a modern forgery, as the Arizona State Archaeologist, Steve Ross, tells Wolter.

Wolter makes a valiant case that the floor of the cave had been dug out after 1984 (it was vandalized sometime in the past thirty years), thus making the runic rock seem younger than it is because it had been hidden in the floor and did not experience weathering. The state archaeologist is not convinced. A silly staged bit of cell phone jujitsu leads Wolter to believe that the rock was a grave marker, though the text message he read aloud was quite clearly planned before filming began.

A great deal of cave exploration follows, leading to little more than speculation that some spiral petroglyphs were star maps or Fibonacci spirals of sacred geometry—even though, quite obviously, the spirals are not in the Fibonacci proportions. Wolter then tells us how big a deal a European presence at the cave would be if it really existed. The state archaeologist explains that a permit is needed to excavate, but Wolter refuses to go through the permit process because he and H2 don’t really care about facts so much as they do making a documentary as quickly and cheaply as possible. Hence, long scenes of Wolter staring at a computer and writing notes.

According to Wolter’s staged phone call with a guy named “Mike,” the runes reveal that the stone marked the grave of a twelfth century Englishman. That would be a neat trick since most runes had been replaced by the Latin alphabet for all but specialized ritual use in Europe by the twelfth century. In England, Anglo-Saxon runes ceased to be used for inscriptions after the ninth century and fell completely out of even scholarly and antiquarian understanding after the Norman Conquest, according to standard texts on runes. In fact, fewer than 200 runic inscriptions survive from medieval England, none after 1066. Thus, twelfth century runes are several centuries late for even an educated explorer to have used in recording a gravestone. (An educated man of the time would have used Latin, or possibly Norman French if he were particularly progressive; and an uneducated man wouldn’t have written anything at all. English vernacular wouldn’t have been used until around Chaucer’s time.)

Steve Ross, the state archaeologist, throws cold water on Wolter’s enthusiastic embrace of the runes as genuine medieval writing, but none of the people on the program is an expert in European archaeology or writing and thus they speak largely from preconceived ideas rather than evidence. Ground-penetrating radar revealed a change of density in the cave floor near the rune stone, which Wolter interprets as a grave before a headstone. That said, Wolter had just finished arguing that the stone had been moved when the cave was vandalized, and now he claims it is resting in situ as a gravestone! Once again, the “investigation” is stymied not by government conspiracy but by Wolter and his crew refusing to apply for permits to conduct real research that could settle the speculative claims.

Another staged cell phone intrusion by “Mike” tells us that the runes identify the deceased as Hurech, a name associated with Staffordshire in England. Mike also tells Wolter to travel to the Gila cliff dwellings in New Mexico but won’t say why. Everyone watching knows that H2 knows damn well why, since the filming permits were arranged and an interview with a ranger was also planned. Nothing of interest seems to happen here other than wasting time looking at sites with no connection to England whatsoever… that is, until Wolter goes to England.

After a long montage of Wolter traveling by car across England to Staffordshire, we meet Alan Butler, an alternative author who tried to sue me back in 2005 for reviewing in Skeptic magazine without their express permission a book he and Christopher Knight wrote about megalithic architecture. I didn’t think much of the book, and I thought less of him and Knight after their threatened lawsuit.

Butler takes Wolter to the Kinver Rock Houses, the inspiration for Tolkien’s hobbit houses, which Wolter claims are “reminiscent” of the Gila Cliff Dwellings, if by “reminiscent” you mean that they are buildings with rooms in some sort of relationship to large rocks.

The Kinver Rock Houses were not built on cliffs but rather were built into sandstone rock walls, mostly at ground level (though some abut a "street" that rises far above ground level), by carving rooms into the living rock, much like the city of Petra in Jordan. The Kinver Rock Houses date back to perhaps 1500 CE (though some think they may be older) and were used down to the 1960s. Some are carved as proper English houses, with straight walls, even floors, and well-proportioned rooms in the style of an English country house, with some having three stories and brick chimneys. Others are more like caves, but all were carved completely out of the relatively soft living rock. In 1904, rent for one multi-room rock house was just over eight pounds a year, though the local parish paid the rent for some longtime residents.

Picture
A ground-level rock house at Kinver Edge, as seen in 1904, complete with well, door, and windows.
Contrary to Wolter’s assertion that the Gila dwellings were completely artificial and thus just like the Kinver houses, archaeologists believe that the Mogollon people built the Gila houses within six naturally-occurring caves created by ancient volcanic activity, with large brick, irregular brick rooms and structures constructed within the caves. Again unlike the British site, the Gila dwellings have uneven floors, open fire pits, storage pits, and heavy plastering. They clearly represent a very different cultural tradition both in their construction and in the use implied by their layout and design. The Gila dwellings were built after 1275 CE (which we know from tree-ring dating of wood at the site) and occupied for only a few decades. Thus they are a century too late to have anything to do with Wolter’s imaginary “twelfth century” explorer, or with sixteenth century English rock houses. These cliff houses were also clearly meant for defensive purposes since they are high and inaccessible, again in contrast to the British examples.

Picture
Interior of a Gila cliff dwelling, showing its brick construction within a natural cave. (Photo: National Park Service)
Therefore, Wolter’s entire evidence for an English presence in twelfth-century Arizona is nothing more than a rock with an anachronistic carving that was almost certainly fabricated in the past thirty years. The rest is nothing but illogical speculation.

133 Comments
intelligentheating link
12/30/2012 05:57:55 am

Interesting review!

One small point:

"English vernacular wouldn’t have been used until around Chaucer’s time."

Actually English vernacular was used during the Old English period. The obvious choice is Beowulf, however there is also the Exeter book which contains the largest collection of surviving Anglo-Saxon texts (and Anglo-Latin).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter_Book

If anything studying these texts makes the case for there being Anglo-Saxon runes carved into a rock during the 12th C even less likely. The texts mentioned above use the latin alphabet with the mix of loan runes (eth, wynn, thorn come to mind).

I would have thought though an educated man from the period as you mention would have written in Norman French or Latin (or yes later in Middle English). The vast majority of the Anglo-Saxon aristocracy were driven from their positions after the Norman conquest and the Harrying of the North, many went to Scotland or even headed as far as the Middle East to join the Varangian guard - this to me is another nail in the coffin of the idea of runic script.

I'm trying to find a good picture of the rune stone so I can exactly what characters are present on it. I do seem to remember seeing the rune for "man" present which seems unlikely for an inscription dating from such a late period.

I can't find any pictures online unfortunately I'm sure some will turn up after the TV show though.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
12/30/2012 06:04:08 am

You're right about English vernacular being used (at least for some purposes) in the Old English period, but since we're talking about a post-Conquest Englishman of the twelfth century, I didn't mention this. In the post-Conquest period, Latin or French would have been the preferred language. For a monumental inscription such as a gravestone, or anything with religious implications, Latin would have been used since that was the language of ritual and the Church. At the time it was still considered sin to translate religious materials into vernacular.

Reply
intelligentheating link
12/30/2012 06:12:44 am

Yes I would have also assumed that Latin would have been the choice for a grave stone and generally the aristocracy were schooled in Latin.

Overall this seems like a hoax somebody put up there, possibly even to get the history channel to show up.

I guess we will have to wait and see if somebody steps forward and ends up embarrassing the show.

netdragon
1/16/2013 07:17:55 am

Of course, everyone was sympathetic to their occupiers, right? I'm sure that most occupied people, when lost in the middle of nowhere, will make sure to go with the language they are forced to use versus the one they prefer.

Paul
11/30/2015 01:20:04 am

"At the time it was still considered sin to translate religious materials into vernacular."

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm#CHAPTER XI

See Chapter XI.

SierraVistaHiker
1/18/2013 02:53:08 am

I have pictures of the stone in question. Taken on a visit to this site a week ago, or so. One of the pictures includes a close-up of the stone inscription and I included the translation given to Wolter by Mike Carr on the show.

Not sure if this blog allows links, perhaps this can be copied and pasted to your browser:

https://picasaweb.google.com/110708888061078760840/20130111MustangMts?authkey=Gv1sRgCI7fs6q3zKWSAg&feat=email#

I have also attempted a translation of this runic-style inscription, however, this inscription mixes rune letters from different eras, as well as from different alphabet variations, thus, it screams of a hoax or someone just playing around.

There is also evidence at this site (rune inscriptions on the walls, conveniently left out of the show) which debunks Wolter's conjecture that the runes on the stone look fresh because they were buried. The rune letters on the walls are equally fresh-as-a-daisy, just like those on the stone. The wall inscriptions look just as recently accomplished as the stone, with no weathering, erosion, mineralization from water leaching from the ceiling, etc.

Perhaps intelligentheating can do a proper transliteration of this inscription, if it is even possible, which I am very much doubting. I am seriously suspecting that the translation provided by "historian" Mike Carr is just another hoax.









Reply
Sarah and Chris
1/22/2013 05:51:22 am

Hello,

We are wanting to look at this for ourselves. Can you offer some directions to us? We live in Hereford. Thank you!

Zach
2/9/2013 03:44:49 pm

I would like to also see this for my self. I live in area. Any tips would be awesome. Thanks

Paul tucker
5/6/2013 05:36:17 am

Hello, I checked out your pictures and they are very impressive! I seen the show too but was wondering if you could tell me where to find the stone or point me in the right direction of who could?
[email protected]

Historian
10/5/2014 11:45:08 am

I looked at your photos. Close up clearly shows no patina within the characters. It would develop patina whether buried or above ground, and a geologist should know that. An archaeologist or artifact collector will recognize patina/lack thereof. There is simply no way to explain that TOTAL lack of patina on the interior surface of the characters other then they are recent. Great photos! I know this is an old thread but wanted to add this since a geologist should have recognized this fact and not claim maybe it was buried, because it will develop a patina, buried or not.

Criostoir Liam O'Ruairc
1/22/2013 04:38:10 am

Perhaps the man who buried the Englishman wasn't English himself, and could've been Norse. We know the Vikings had been coming to 'America' since the 2nd century, so maybe the man (or men) accompanying Hurech was just a guide for Hurech.

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Jason Colavito link
1/22/2013 07:40:53 am

If we're going to go that route, then maybe it was really a time traveling space alien who watched this episode and went back in time to plant the evidence.

First we would need to prove the stone was carved in medieval times before speculating on who carved it.

Dana
11/3/2014 03:10:21 pm

The runes don't look 800 years old at all...too clean and crisp, no patina.

gEORGE sTEPHENS
2/3/2013 11:46:07 am

First you rightly claim that the host said the rock had been covered over by debris that robbers had then removed.Then, you claim the host said the stone was moved which he never said? What show did you watch?

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Coyoty
7/13/2013 11:04:59 am

The host did say the rock had been moved when the cave was vandalized.

jack
2/10/2013 05:01:57 pm

These are Tolkien runes.I was reading the hobbit when I saw this show and they jump right out .

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Dan Oelrich
3/17/2024 04:53:17 am

Seems like a lot of work to go to, to propagate a hoax. Yet this is exactly what seems to have happened. I would say to such a person, that they have way too much time on their hands. Yet they could not possibly know of the whole Hurech/England connection, beforehand, could they? Sounds to me like the translation was indeed concocted and made to create a plausible connection. If the translator did this on his own accord, then he should pay the price for such. But….if everyone on the show was in on it, including Scott, then that is the most troubling thing to me.
Now, having said all that, I confess that I was rapt by the program. An enjoyable exercise in conjecture. But I’m glad I discovered the hoax in time to not make an ass out of myself by furthering this made up story!
One of the sad results of the show might be that it propagates the myth that Natives are not bright enough to be able to figure out how to make incredible stone structures.

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George Kelley
12/30/2012 07:54:08 am

First, whenever you review a show like this it is worth it. Secondly, bravo. I found this show to be so ridiculous from the get go. How does History justify these shows?

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Lily
7/14/2013 01:16:07 pm

George, I too was impressed when iI found this review. I watched the show while my husband, an archaeologist is away for work. He hates the thought that I even watch this show. I do it when I am in the mood to argue with the TV then do some research myself. The History Channel has no right to call iself that...they lost that right when they started airing Ancient Aliens. I had such high hopes when the channel first aired.

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Francois
7/19/2013 07:33:36 am

I totally agree both with both of you, George and Lily. Did watch this documentary last night and could see, even with my limited knowledge of runes, that this whole thing was fabricated. I expected them to dig and look but they surely wouldn't do that. I thought that History Channel was more serious than that. Shame on them for spreading disinformation about North American history. I'm very disapointed and do hope that History Channel will smarten up and offer us real/true documentaries ... without annoying soundtracts.

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Robbie Ashmore
12/31/2012 02:15:17 am

The Runes shown were not Anglo/Saxon at all. Well let me re-phrase that. There was one A/S rune the rest were Elder Futhark. The funny thing is the A/S rune shown was an "S" and it was positioned right by beside the EF rune for the sound value "S". I rewound the show on the DVR and made a translation; it says: [ksils-ss-sudins-peiss-runsns-psshks-sst-msss-emens] absolutely nothing...it's just gibberish...it's an obvious fake. I have come to doubt anything I see on the History Channel, but this was the biggest stretch of all.

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Jason Colavito link
1/3/2013 05:52:15 am

Thanks for the info... I'm not a rune expert so it helps to have someone who can read runes be able to say that they're gibberish.

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Gena Stansell
1/23/2014 04:31:44 am

Please contact me email asap have question..

pat
1/4/2013 04:58:38 pm

I agree completly i paused and did a transliteration aswell and tried a couple of translation possiblities and it was just gibberish

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blazeaglory
1/17/2013 07:24:47 pm

"Keils, es sudine peise runens. Peshke est meis homens"

now translate

Derek
5/18/2013 06:56:06 am

I suggest that "msss" is "msys."

See SierraVistaHiker's last pic, which is a close-up on this sequence. The detail seems to show Mannaz-Sig-Jera, not Mannaz-Sig-Sowelu. Otherwise, you are absolutely correct.

I agree that two variants of the S-rune are present; most unusual.

The note that Anachronists may have forged it is interesting.

@jack: Genuine runes formed the basis for "Tolkien runes." Tolkien was an Anglo-Saxon scholar and linguist.

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BrianPeck
12/31/2012 07:22:01 am

This review brought to mind a story my father told me.
In the 1950s he was a Park Service archaeologist at Mesa Verde. A Danish trained archaeologist co-worker was on his final day of work when a woman tourist questioned his explanation of the Indian settlement of the area. The co-worker in exasperation launched into an 'alternative' explanation involving Viking explorers building the cliff dwellings to defend against Native Americans. The woman bought the story.
That archaeologist went on to head a museum in Canada.
Some people would rather believe wild stories over the simple truth.
And, maybe the Arizona runes were carved by the Vikings.

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Jack
1/1/2013 06:57:43 am

Robbie is right - they are Elder Futhark runes, which if memory serves, we're not carved after 800 CE until around the late 1970s or early 1980s. If that inscription actually exists it is far more likely to be a modern inscription, done after 1984.

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Jared Simmons
1/1/2013 02:51:22 pm

I also was somewhat sceptical but I am keeping my mind open until the inevitable look see under the slab.

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Robert Boney
1/2/2013 06:54:18 am

Thanks to Public Non-Education the masses will follow all those things that seem so fantastical. This is why religion, governments, and popular prestidigitator are so successful. A native southerner, I am slightly disappointed at the South's depiction by the History Channel. We all wear over-alls, hunt gators and shoot at one another. I had such high hopes that Scott Wolter would shed some intelligent light on some American mysteries, but I fear it will just get more ridiculous.

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Fergus Paisley
1/17/2013 04:43:37 pm

Southerners are the source of great merriment for Hollywood,they are the last group of people it is allright to marginalize and use epithets to describe them. Rednecks crackers etc. Back to the point the rune is obviously a fake,for all the reasons mentioned. This series is just absurd America BC on LSD.

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charles payne link
2/15/2020 09:56:29 pm

I doubt very seriously that you know what a "redneck or cracker" are.
If you are intelligent enough, please email me

Craig Evans
5/18/2013 06:12:39 am

Sooooo...you depict religion in a negative light and then proceed to complain about how the history channel depicts southerners? Wow. I think religious people would say...hypocrite?

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Katherine
1/4/2013 04:18:38 pm

There is an annual medieval encampment called Estrella War held outside of Phoenix and is in its 29th year. One of any number of the thousands of attendees would be familiar enough with Futhark. The group often writes scrolls and awards in translated language and also writes modern English jokes in the Futhark alphabet. I dont' have any knowledge of someone doing a prank like this, but it certainly isn't much of a stretch of the imagination.

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Ceridwyn
1/19/2013 06:52:39 am

I was wondering about such a thing myself! My husband, son and others (who are part of the same group, from Ontario), have spent 2 summers as Viking recreationists working for Parks Canada at L'Anse aux Meadows. I think I might ask one of them if they have made any side trips while visiting Estrella.....(just kidding, they wouldn't have done this, really!).

I love the part of the episode where the host says that the markings are 12th century English runes! (ROTFL) Now if we could only have a North American version of Time Team instead of this show.

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History for All
1/4/2013 04:28:12 pm

I agree with the historic critics on this episode mentioned so far. I think we would all agree there would need to be a lot more critical and transparent research done. However, this is one of the history channel shows that actually got me thinking about research, mystery, passion, and travel. I think this show reaches out to a wider audience, rather than their overwhelming line up of male-centered melo-dramas. I found this episode to be intriguing and it was exciting to ponder about American history and be reminded of artifacts that don't fit the traditional American narrative. I think Scott is passionate and I imagine a lot of kids watching this show would want to go out and investigate their backyard for artifacts. I think their parents would eagerly join them too. There are far worse things on television then this show. Scott doesn't claim his facts are true, he poses questions that need more answers. At least this show encourages us to use our imaginations, ask questions, and search for new discoveries.

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Alex Bantov
2/24/2013 10:12:55 am

Wholeheartedly agree! And I think the more popular the show will get, more research would be done. Also, thanks to H2 and Scott Wolter, I finally get to visualy explore what I have only been reading about!
Cudos to Jason for great insights!

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Robert Getzin
1/5/2013 08:37:49 pm

The one thing never mentioned in the show or by anyone on this site is, who buried the man and made the grave stone? What could have been his relationship to the departed? The burial could have taken place anytime.
Of course another theory could be that aliens visiting Earth picked up this person and maybe others in England and left them off in the desert in the 12th century!!

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Ryno
1/8/2013 03:32:07 am

I was excited when I heard about this show coming on the History channel. I live about 40 miles from where the first episode took place and after watching that episode, I knew this was just show meant to prey on those who dont know much about what they are watching. You could say that Scott and the History channel are preying on the ignorant but I dont think thats the case. They are just trying to make something out of nothing. I used to believe there was something to the Kensington Runestones but after watching this series, its obvious Scott is what we call in the Georgia mountains, just another snake oil salesman.

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Mark
1/8/2013 05:42:12 am

Just saw the show, and the whole time I was watching, two words kept popping into my head: pure conjucture. All you really need to know is that there is no mention of the rune stone on the original archeological report.

Too bad these kinds of shows don't contain a disclaimer at the start: This show is classified as info-tainment, and should be taken as such.

I realize it would spoil their fun, but if the guys who carved this stone could stop laughing for a minute, perhaps you could go on the local news and debunk this foolish nonsense. I know, you'd have to give up your ruse. But hey, you'd get to be on TV, and help put an end to this pseudo-scientific hogwash.

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Tim Holt link
1/8/2013 10:28:49 am

Here is what I wrote after reading your entry. Thanks for getting me back to earth.
http://holtthink.tumblr.com/post/40039549232

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Douglas E. Heeren
1/10/2013 04:20:48 pm

Just saw the show tonight on H2. What a load of horse manure. I am familar with Old Norse Runes and somewhat with Anglo-Saxon Runes and figured it was a hoax. For one thing, even if this dead gent was able to sail to North America, how did he travel to Arizona? Walk? I just can't believe that any sponser would buy advertising to run during a complete lie of a show as this. Even more, I can't believe I wasted an hour of my time watching this magic show.

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justaguy
1/10/2013 10:40:56 pm

I am the opposite of the reviewer and well-informed commenters knowing little besides seeing some petroglyphs in a few places and visiting Mesa Verde years ago. There was a lot that didn't add up for me in the first 5 minutes, still I soldier on with viewing. I was stunned that the low-budget production splurged for travel to England. The dramatic music should be replaced by a laugh track.

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terry the censor
1/16/2013 12:58:36 pm

> The dramatic music should be replaced by a laugh track.

That is a great idea! I wish someone on YouTube would make it happen.

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Charla
1/11/2013 02:51:43 pm

Katherine - yes! I am one of those thousands that read Futharc. When they first showed the stone, I paused it, read it, and went huh??? *lol*

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Tara Jordan
1/13/2013 09:17:17 pm

There is something such as negative knowledge courtesy of such cartoonish series, even the Arizona State Archaeologist,Steve Ross,sounds like an absolute ignoramus.
Scott Wolter the forensic geologist (changing history in an absolute profound way), is having an impact on archeology & history ,as much as Britney Spears does.

For those among us who have the most basic training in field Ethno-anthropology & archeology,it only takes about 2 minutes to figure out the carvings cannot possibly be 800 years old.

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Brad Geeck
1/18/2013 06:18:01 am

I know Steve Ross, In fact I worked with Steve. It is evident you do not know him. He is very knowledgeable in many aspects of Arizona's history and prehistory. He handle the issues very well, if anything he was too polite.

If one was to look at the incised "runes" it looks very modern to me.

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Eric
1/16/2013 05:40:08 am

I was also looking forward to something concrete with this show. After watching and suffering through the dramatic music, plus listening to the stretched 'threads' of evidence, I fear that people will jump on this as fact rather than conjecture as in the other comment. Overall I'm disappointed with the program and with H2, but then again they still run 'Ancient Aliens'.

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netdragon
1/16/2013 07:15:24 am

You are not a scientist. A scientist withholds opinion until true research is done. Instead of the state archeologist wasting money speculating, he should pull the permits and get out there and dig. He should have that rock analyzed further to determine if it really could have been buried. I'm withholding my opinion, since I AM a scientist.

"than a rock with an anachronistic carving that was almost certainly fabricated in the past thirty years."

PROOF? You have no evidence, one way or the other. Have you even gone out there?

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RL
1/17/2013 05:00:09 pm

Thank You. What All of these armchair experts have failed to realize in touting the time difference in the printed language usage, is a few things, one there's a very good chance that to get that far west, these folks were not the result of the original expedition, they may have been a number of generations removed, which would also account for major discrepencies in grammer . If they had made land on teh east coast, it would have taken an insane amount of time to get that far west, hacking through the swamps , crossing unbelievable rivers, this isnt something in that time period that would have gone easily, and if it wasnt government sponsered, ( of which there would be records ) that meant they were on their own
Being personally someone whose great great to the umteenth power Grandmother was born in a nice little well established town around where Haverhill Massachusetts ( all the streets in the old part of town are named after my ancestors and the families they married into ) now stands... about 20 years before the Mayflower got there.... I have a VERY strong distrust of commonly accepted history and all the *experts* :-)

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Varika
2/15/2013 11:01:33 pm

According to Google Maps, to walk from my house in Delaware to Los Angeles, CA would take 883 hours. Assuming you walked at a healthy pace, you could do a reasonable 20 miles in a day. Therefore, you could walk all the way across the continent in about six weeks (45 days). Now, I realize that this uses modern roads and thus is significantly faster than walking through wilderness. However, if you go back in time just a bit, you find this thing called the Oregon Trail, which would later inspire the FABULOUS and definitely lamented early computer game of the same name. On average, it took 4-6 months to cross from Missouri to Oregon. Missouri is a little less than halfway across the country from the East Coast, so it probably took about twice that to get from ocean to ocean in complete wilderness.

Baby wouldn't even have learned to TALK yet, much less mangle grammar, by the time Mommy and Daddy got all the way across the continent AND BACK--let alone old enough to consider the next generation.

Seriously, there are any number of families just as old as yours living in Oregon that could give you their family histories of how Umpteenth power Great Grandma crossed the country as a girl, coming from New York City or Boston or Philadelphia or HAVERHILL MASSACHUSETTS.

Lily
7/14/2013 01:27:50 pm

netdragon, the state archaeologist "should pull the permit and get out there and dig". Have you heard anything about state and federal budgets lately? There is no money for things like that. In most cases the state of federal archaeologist will oversee work that colleges or universities want to do.

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Joe
7/13/2015 01:31:23 am

Do you believe in global warming? Or climate change, or whatever the loony left is calling it this year?
They have no PROOF either, but keep forcing it on us.
You say you're a scientist...what's YOUR opinion?

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netdragon
1/16/2013 07:20:54 am

So far, only laymen have translated the runes. I give two grains of salt to the people commenting here as well about what they think the runes say. Just like I give two grains of salt to the people in the show. Can we get some real experts to look at the footage and translate? Please do it officially and include your credentials.

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netdragon
1/16/2013 07:24:19 am

I'd also like to add that it wouldn't be earth-shattering if a couple or a few englishmen ended up lost at sea, landing in North America, travelling by foot on Indian trails, and the survivors eventually probably joining American Indian tribe to survive. We already know that Columbus had reports of previous people landing in the New World, and there were also the Vikings.

What WOULD be earth-shattering is if scientists took their job seriously and actually investigated this using all the means at their disposal, even if the results could disappoint some people (or turn out to just tell us a couple Englishmen once got very lost)

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Joe
1/16/2013 09:19:57 am

If it were somewhere halfway close to the coast, sure, I might be able to buy that. But Arizona? That's getting REALLY lost. Getting there by accident seems nearly impossible. So much so, that even Wolter doesn't advance that idea. He floats the theory they were out there to gain fortune in some way or another. (Though it's unclear how that would have been. He thinks two guys were out there mining by themselves? Trading with the natives?)

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NjoyAz
3/6/2013 10:25:08 am

Tucson is the oldest Indian dwelling dating back to the BC, Archaeologist from U of A say 3000 years. Let alone the Phoenix Gazette of 1906. Published a story about Egyptian artifacts found in the Grand Canyon, google it! I think isolationists are very isolated in thought concerning ancient History. Many cultures were seafaring!

Al
1/17/2013 04:35:25 pm

I don't know anything about translating rune stones or the like but as far as walking to Arizona is concerned a Spanish Conquistador by the name of Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca walked from what is now Tampa, Florida to Mexico City.

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Brandon
1/18/2013 02:55:49 am

The mustang moutains are literally 45 min. from my house and it sounds like a good way to spend a Saturday during our cooler winter. a I plan on checking the site out if it isn't already roped off. I'll report back if I find anything interesting. Let me know if there is anything particular I should be looking for....

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Skip Shephard
9/9/2013 10:04:25 am

I enjoyed the show. I also have enjoyed reading all of the comments. My biggest question is, since the site was listed by the U. Of A. Years ago, why haven't they done more thorough research on the site? If it could be verified that Anglos were in our state that long ago, you'd think they would jump on it to be in a position to "correct" the history?

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Jason Colavito link
9/9/2013 11:31:38 am

There is nothing there to suggest any real European presence there; the runes are very obviously fake. With very limited time and money, there is no reason to waste scarce resources on something that has no chance of being real.

andy
1/18/2013 12:38:48 pm

As soon as it was propoaed they had cell service out there. That's what did it for me. I am going to watch this with my kids and teach them how to think critically. Question everything.

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Eric
1/18/2013 01:29:07 pm

I still hear slight echoes of Erich Von Daniken and Charles Berlitz.

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Jimmy Park
1/22/2013 12:44:12 pm

I find it amazing how you can quote or use a con man/hoaxer as a source. They are all (Ancient Aliens and other alternate theory shows) fishing in the same pot. Such dishonesty. I think there should be a petition started to force them to put a disclaimer at the beginning or the end of the show that it is for entertainment purposes only.

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Stuart Geiger
1/25/2013 05:43:26 pm

Am I stupid - what moron would bury a body under their front porch? Anyway - Astro boy Wolter is a wanna be Indiana Jones and a disgrace to science and scientific methods.

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Joe
1/28/2013 09:54:57 am

Really, almost anywhere would make more sense for a grave than where the show wants it to be: Burial clearly inside the cave serves more like a tomb; burial at a spot clearly outside would allow continued use of the cave without constantly walking across the grave. But what would be the logic to burial at the mouth of the cave?

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VLM link
2/1/2013 02:51:13 am

Wait a minute people! I'm no scientist, but didn't he, Scott Wolter, in the beginning of the episode stress how vandals or amateur archaeologists had moved the rune stone outside the cave, reasoning the rune stone inscription would have been worn otherwise? Therefore, in my humble reasoning, wouldn’t the grave have been inside the cave next to the stone or did the vandals move the grave outside too!? Duh! Obvious conclusion, the show is bogus! And as far as Steve Ross, the Arizona State Archaeologist, I got the impression he was just there for show. He really didn't get to say much of anything.

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Jason Colavito link
2/1/2013 03:01:51 am

Yes, he did say that. The location of the "grave" seems to change throughout the episode depending on the needs of any particular segment's claims.

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Joe
2/4/2013 11:20:56 am

I couldn't understand why Wolter assumed the stone had been moved. It looked quite clear that 2-3 feet of soil had been removed from the mouth of that cave. (Wolter noted on the walls at the front of the cave where the soil level had originally been.) To me, it seems much more likely that the large stone had simply been buried beforehand and just revealed when the digging occurred. Regardless of when the carving occurred, it would have been far less work to simply carve the stone where it was at.

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Ptolomaeus
2/9/2013 03:38:15 pm

What interests me is that Wolter, an "archaeologist, would read a runic inscription left to right. If I recall correctly, The Norse would have written right to left. They also don't let the viewer look at the inscription long enough to read. I'd love to see the actual stone, or at least some good pictures of it.

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Ray Colgin
2/9/2013 05:52:23 pm

Just a bit of information regarding a runestone in North America .
Located in Runestone State Park .. Heavener, Oklahoma .(southeastern Oklahoma).
According to the history of the "stone" it has been authenicated and deciphered by Norwegian runic experts ..
As I recall... the stone was first written about in the 1930s .... Then in the late 60's a lady commenced investigating and thought that could possibly be runic characters/writing .
Photos/tracings of the writing were eventually forwarded to the Runic Society in Norway for translation and verification .
This stone is quite large..approx 6ft x 8ft slab of hard sandstone.
The translation seems to indicate a claim to the surrounding area by the individual doing the carving of the stone..... I don't remember the name... GOB....GOST..or some such .
Also ... runestones have been found in northwestenn Oklahoma ;also in Kansas. Nothing nearly so grand as the one in Runestone Park though .
Maybe Scott Wolter and the History Channel could take a look at "this'n" ????? : )

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Diana Thornton
2/10/2013 12:28:19 am

There is a photo of a medieval vellum document dating from about 1200 using a runic alphabet on wikipedia, codex, runicus. Runes have been found on grave inscriptions from that period. According to the article it is now thought that runes were in common use in that era. I too am a bit skeptical about the runes but who knows. To say they were completely out of use by 1200, though, isn't accurate.

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Jason Colavito link
2/10/2013 01:04:50 am

The Codex Runicus is considered a revivalist document, meaning that it was purposely using an archaic style, like neo-Latin writing today. At any rate, the Codex is written in the runes of the Norse, which are not the same as the British runes claimed in the program, which were out of use before 1200.

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ml
2/11/2013 04:47:25 am

I just saw the show about the rune stone. I found it interesting, however, why didn't Mr Ross provide site photograghs of the cave? When recording any arch. site not only are detailed drawings & measurements taken but hundreds of photo record the site so the site can be monitored in the future. Why were no photos brought to the cave? For comparison? That was a big red flag to me!

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wes
2/14/2013 02:33:16 pm

I hiked up to the site today with the family for a little Valentine's day adventure. I am in no way an expert on rune stones, but I guarantee this is a fake. The carving in the stone appears relatively new, especially when compared to other carvings and paintings in the cave. The carved/chiseled edges of the runes are all sharp and steep. The show suggested the stone could have been buried; however, even the shelf that shows the supposed ground level above the stone, has significant weathering and mineral build up. Unless that stone was vacuum sealed and buried shortly after it was carved, it's fake.

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Jason Colavito link
2/14/2013 10:19:10 pm

Thanks for the report. Somehow, I am not surprised. I hope the hike was enjoyable!

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Varika
2/15/2013 11:05:39 pm

"Unless that stone was vacuum sealed and buried shortly after it was carved"

By the ancient aliens, right?

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ken
5/18/2013 07:01:36 am

Wes, I am from Sierra Vista (now in Tucson) and my father still lives in SV, so I visit often. Can you provide information on getting to the site? GPS if possible. I would like to take a look one one of my trips.

Thanks.

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wes
7/13/2013 12:03:38 pm

I don't have GPS coordinates to the location. I'll make sure and get them if I go back up. The easiest way to get there is off of HWY 82 near Mile Marker 43 … I’m not a 100% on the Mile Marker, but I think it’s right. There is a dirt two-track that drops south off of the highway. You can identify the two-track by the two sets of power lines that run down the road. Locals refer to it as the double pole-line road. Drive south on the two-track until you go through the 4th gate. Turn right after you go through the gate and follow it till the road ends. The road ends at a wash only a couple hundred meters west of the gate. There is a little turn-around spot at the end of the road. If you look south at that point you’ll see the saddle you need to go over to reach the cave. When you reach the top of the saddle, stay to the right, west side, of the saddle and follow the trail around the back of the hill. The cave is a few hundred meters around the backside from the saddle. Stay high on the backside, just at the base of the cliffs and you won’t miss the cave. The road getting there, generally isn’t too bad, however, now that it is monsoon season, it may be difficult at times getting into the area.

Ravi Jay link
2/16/2013 07:59:16 am

Just saw the show with a few mates in London. We are entrepreneurs and not Runes/Archeology experts. We have two questions:
1) Who buried Peter; presumably the person who made the inscriptions?
2) Just because the person knew the language he used to inscribe, does it mean that Peter knew it as well?

Hypothetically, if Peter had done all inscriptions and then died or moved away from the location, it would have made sense to follow his trail. Does it not make sense to follow the trail of the (still unknown) person who made the inscriptions?

By the way, what happened to him?

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Tony
2/23/2013 02:14:27 pm

Did I see the word 'Israel' which I believe is a recent construct written on the cross?

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CORA
3/2/2013 06:54:23 pm

My jaw dropped when he so lightly proposed that Horech taught the Mogollon how to do cliff dwellings. What hubris and how disrespectful. It just boggles the mind.

Anyway, if anyone else goes out there, document all sides of the rune stone rock itselfs, the boring sides of it etc. Where it meets the ground etc. Buried stones should have some defining characteristics I would think. I thought I saw a calcite accretion on one edge of it.

Additionally, from the base or on the way up that hill, get some pics of the bluff and major ground rocks.I should think those would tell a more interesting story.

The state archaeologist came out of it very well in my opinion.Properly skeptical.You know it was edited to put the best light on the theory. I think the archaeologist sounded exceedingly reasonable given how they likely edited his words. It made me grin when I saw his open mindedness to not dismiss anything out of hand but still rely on hard evidence to make a determination.

Reply
Bob Clark
4/23/2013 04:35:03 pm

From an avid H2 watcher, How does a pair of Englishmen GET to this spot in Arizona? ? ? Weren't the air traffic controllers cut back by the sequester at that point in time? Thus no flights into Gila International. And we know Sancho Panza did not have a donkey for rent at that time. (Tongue firmly in cheek.)
Peace - out

Reply
roland
5/15/2013 03:11:52 am

I really felt embarrassed watching this garbage. The show was touted as changing the way we look at America and the evidence to prove it. Honestly, Wolter should be ashamed to call himself an archaeologist. The most plausible and obvious explanation is a hoax and post-1984 bunch of kids carving some runes into a rock. No effort is paid to debunking this most likely explanation, other than "the cave could have been excavated since 1984". I'm glad the Arizona representative kept pouring cold water on the offered explanations. History Channel should really be ashamed for airing this programming as "History". It should appear on the Entertainment Channel, alongside Bloopers and other similar programs. The standard of reporting and documentary film-making is really degrading.

Reply
Ian Cook
5/18/2013 08:58:27 pm

Just seen this programme on HC in New Zealand. I have only two words....utter rubbish. The runestone is blindingly obvoius fake.

Reply
Dennis
6/29/2013 03:21:16 pm

I am hardly educated in Runic, but water leaked out of the rest of the H2 presentation, everywhere. It came across as an over-dramatized and poorly scripted (and acted) piece of pseudo-science junk that had me waiting for the insertion of a commercial offer for my very own pocket Runic interpreter, with a bonus 'kitchen magician' celery chopper if I called within the next 10 minutes.

With the collective knowledge of real archaeologists, geologists, and language specialists, this whole thing could have been settled with finality. Somehow, H2 availed themselves of none of the above, which should have been a priority given the potential significance of the matter.

Entertainment disguised as reality, which runs on every other channel, too...

Reply
Krista
7/14/2013 04:36:41 am

Thank you for writing this blog post. I have zero credentials in the field aside from common sense. I was excited to watch this show and this is the first episode I watched. I got through the overly dramatic music, theatrics, staged phone calls, etc with some impatient eye-rolls all hoping to have some information about this intriguing topic by the end of the show. What a flop.

Even if this is all made up, as it seems to be, a good show would have at least mentioned or entertained discussion on how this Englishman possibly traveled to the area, and what may have happened to whomever buried him and inscribed his headstone? It be important to mention the apparent second Englishman there, too, that survived long enough to carve the inscription everyone is talking about. But the carver isn't even mentioned or a question risen to his identity or demise. So many moments where even a kid watching could say, "ummm, wait a second..."

I couldn't believe there was no excavation. I watched this whole show and at least thought as I saw the time running out, that they'd tell us an update as to what Arizona archeology discovered after filming. That it wasn't worth the attempt just ruined this entire show for me.

Obviously, real students and professors of this field can tear this show apart. Unfortunate. So then we'd hope it was at least written to entertain and educate the general audience like me with no experience in this field and only a casual intrigue. Again, completely disappointing. What a mockery of real American archeology and what a lost opportunity to highlight any of the legit lost stories in this land. I think Steve Ross was very patient and polite with this whole masquerade. For me, that was the most impressive thing in this show.

Reply
Jordan
7/14/2013 03:18:53 pm

I am a grad student at the University of Oslo in Norway and have studied runic alphabets quite a bit. The inscription is in pretty standard Elder Futhark, not Anglo Saxon at all. This style of writing was phased out by around AD 650-700. Here is my transliteration:
Keils
Es sudins
Peise runens
Peshke est
Mejs emen
I am not familiar with the language, but it could be Latin. Amusingly, one will notice that it has a rhyming, bouncy cadence when read aloud.

Reply
Helene Flamand
7/17/2013 09:52:23 pm

This is not in Latin, Jordan. It's Gibberish.

Reply
Steve
1/12/2014 09:23:51 am

Early or Late Gibberish?

Seriously, the show is entertaining, but absolute rubbish. Even in the show, this inscription is obviously fake.

In general, even if the specific events happened, they don't "change history" they just add a few footnotes. And I'm not inclined to think that most of them happened. I can buy the occasional ship blown off course, and rarely, survivors, But that is about it, until you get to the Greenland colonies.

Jim Barnes
1/11/2014 05:48:51 pm

If you want to play a bit of wordgolf (a la Vladmir Nabokov), you will find an interesting(?) pornographic message within the translation.

Reply
Michael Anderson
7/18/2013 04:31:15 pm

H2, like History Channel, is an embarrassment and worse: it is catnip to the minds of the kind of borderline-paranoid type that is now legion in our society. What was once educational TV has devolved into just one more aspect of the mass dumbing down of Western culture. "Idiocracy" may prove to be the most prophetic film of all time at this rate. I won't let my child watch these shows; if he wants to learn history and science, there are genuine resources available. TV is just about selling crap you don't need, and whatever it takes to get knuckle-draggers to buy the crap is fair game.

Reply
Francois
7/21/2013 06:07:01 am

Great comment from you Michael ! I do so agree.

Reply
Francois
7/21/2013 06:08:08 am

Great comment from you Michael ! I do so agree with the above.

Reply
Francois
7/21/2013 06:08:55 am

Great words from you Michael ! I do so agree with your last comment.

Reply
jay young
7/20/2013 08:52:41 pm

I watched the show and read the reviews. Yes! What they call history now is pure crap. I mean what are our kids gona think one day about history? That we can just put random theories togeather and call it the truth!?!? Anyway. . I was looking up more info and at find a grave .com they have Peter's grave in it. I mean what a load.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=102889529

Its funny and sadly people believe it!

Reply
Jason Colavito link
7/20/2013 11:30:14 pm

That's awful.

Reply
Francois
7/21/2013 06:11:59 am

Indeed !!!

cc link
8/4/2013 04:53:53 pm

Apparently later than most, I watched the show recently online. All the problems discussed here seem reasonable to indicate a hoax. What bothers me, also, is "Where did the supposed,12th century, rune carver find his metal chisel?"

Reply
BJN
8/11/2013 02:08:57 pm

They completely overlooked the possibility of a time-space vortex that sucked the guys out of the pub and dumped them in Arizona. I will say, though, that this would have made an awesome X FIles episode. Shame it was presented as fact on the "History" Chanel.

Reply
Rand Groth
11/28/2013 05:06:39 am

I was disappointed that they was no linking of this site to the Templar's bringing the Holy Grail to America...

Reply
Coyoty
11/30/2013 12:29:53 am

Wait a few hundred years and you might catch them trying to sneak It onto Babylon 5.

Reply
Jesse maiolo
11/28/2013 05:30:02 am

Even I thought this show a little to far fetched and lacking in real evidence after just watching the rerun. It belongs right up there with that fable that was on SHARK WEEK about the Megaladon.....how does this stuff get on the air and pass for something supposedly real??History channel indeed!!! Maybe the HISTORY of FAKE TV SHOWS would be more apropos!! Happy Thanksgiving.

Reply
H8ingH
1/14/2014 02:14:06 am

Somebody needs to explain the difference between archeoastronomy and astrotheology to Wolter. I cringe when he says "...another example of archeoastronomy" on his show.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
1/14/2014 02:21:16 am

According to Wolter's blog, he knows the difference but the producers decided it was too confusing for the audience.

Reply
Coyoty
1/16/2014 04:29:58 pm

Which means it was too confusing for the producers.

Greg
2/9/2014 03:34:40 am


Bunch of brainwashed people here if you ask me. Is it that appalling to suggest that not everything in our history books is in entirely accurate? That's all scott wolter is saying. He's at least encouraging people to take a closer look at history, to question things, and not to take everything in the history books as absolute fact. Look at the bible. It's KNOWN that Constantinople edited the bible to fit his own agenda and people still follow the bible to its every last word as divine. I am all for backing theories up with science but Considering the billions of things that have happened in human history why is it so UNBELIVABLE that Europeans could have been in America before Columbus? Not everything is documented perfectly. I feel the same way about Ancient Aliens. These shows are providing theories, pointing out some scientific facts to try and prove those theories, but are not saying that these claims are 100% truth. Scott never says the mysterious he explores are 100% absolute falsehoods. He's hust always looking for more answers. It would next to impossible to 100% prove or disprove some of these things. And Viewers know that and don't need some degrading "warning" message on the show to tell them that. Lighten up assholes, not everything you read in school is 100% true, and not 100% of crap you see on TV is claiming that either. Just cause you believe something it doesn't make it the truth.

Reply
Ken
2/9/2014 06:15:42 am

The problem is that shows like this, along with "Ancient Aliens" and similar shows, DON'T present alternative scientific facts. They present wild speculation without one shred of scientific fact to back it up. Further, as many people here have pointed out, many of the so-called "facts" are easily disproven by anyone who will take the time to look into them honestly. One of the most prolific writers about "Ancient Aliens" was discovered to have faked some of the photos in his books. Another was caught by a student actually filing down an edge of a pyramid block so that its dimensions would fit with his complex mathematical formulas that supposedly guided the building of the pyramids.

Until some of these fringe ideas are published in peer-reviewed journals I will continue to consider them as wild speculation of the worst kind.

Reply
Ken
2/9/2014 06:15:55 am

The problem is that shows like this, along with "Ancient Aliens" and similar shows, DON'T present alternative scientific facts. They present wild speculation without one shred of scientific fact to back it up. Further, as many people here have pointed out, many of the so-called "facts" are easily disproven by anyone who will take the time to look into them honestly. One of the most prolific writers about "Ancient Aliens" was discovered to have faked some of the photos in his books. Another was caught by a student actually filing down an edge of a pyramid block so that its dimensions would fit with his complex mathematical formulas that supposedly guided the building of the pyramids.

Until some of these fringe ideas are published in peer-reviewed journals I will continue to consider them as wild speculation of the worst kind.

Reply
Ken
2/9/2014 06:16:15 am

The problem is that shows like this, along with "Ancient Aliens" and similar shows, DON'T present alternative scientific facts. They present wild speculation without one shred of scientific fact to back it up. Further, as many people here have pointed out, many of the so-called "facts" are easily disproven by anyone who will take the time to look into them honestly. One of the most prolific writers about "Ancient Aliens" was discovered to have faked some of the photos in his books. Another was caught by a student actually filing down an edge of a pyramid block so that its dimensions would fit with his complex mathematical formulas that supposedly guided the building of the pyramids.

Until some of these fringe ideas are published in peer-reviewed journals I will continue to consider them as wild speculation of the worst kind.

Reply
Ken
2/9/2014 06:16:30 am

The problem is that shows like this, along with "Ancient Aliens" and similar shows, DON'T present alternative scientific facts. They present wild speculation without one shred of scientific fact to back it up. Further, as many people here have pointed out, many of the so-called "facts" are easily disproven by anyone who will take the time to look into them honestly. One of the most prolific writers about "Ancient Aliens" was discovered to have faked some of the photos in his books. Another was caught by a student actually filing down an edge of a pyramid block so that its dimensions would fit with his complex mathematical formulas that supposedly guided the building of the pyramids.

Until some of these fringe ideas are published in peer-reviewed journals I will continue to consider them as wild speculation of the worst kind.

Reply
Historian
7/13/2015 01:21:04 pm

Just because not everything in our history books is entirely accurate does not give Wolter the authority to substitute utter crap and call it a more accurate history. We already know the Norse had a presence in far northern Canada. It is not impossible that others arrived here. That is not really the issue. Wolter is not only doing what you claim. He is distorting the real history/prehistory of the places he features. And real scholars of those places know this. It's snake oil. It is not opening people's eyes to more open minded looks at history if what he substitutes, and ask that people believe, is absolute nonsense. Exactly what good does doing that do?? Would you like to know what kind of historian Wolter is (not!!)? Try this:

http://www.richardnielsen.org//PDFs/ESOP%20v27%20p139%20Review%20of%20Wolter%20Book%205pp.pdf

Reply
Greg
2/9/2014 06:45:42 am

One shred of scientific fact?? Have you even watched "ancient aliens"? The whole premise is that they have some evidence that points to their claims. Granted you can probably rip each fact apart and find some tiny hole, but that still doesn't disapprove it, so the theory just can't be completely dismissed in its entirety. Just because some writer faked a picture or some kid filed a few inches off a brick doesn't disprove entire theories. (By the way you're just throwing those claims out there too without citing any actual names or actual cases) The long and the short of it is that skeptics will always be skeptics and it's a good thing they don't run the world or else we'd all still be running around thinking the world is flat

Reply
Jason Colavito link
2/9/2014 06:48:51 am

Erich von Daniken included fabricated evidence that he admitted to Playboy in 1974 was fake. He later stated that he was willing to fabricate and fake anything to win the "war" on skeptics.

If you visit my article on "Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud" in the Articles section above (under Ancient Alien Fraud) you'll see many cases where evidence was manipulated or fabricated. There's plenty more besides.

Reply
Ken
2/9/2014 07:57:31 am

That's exactly the incident I was referring to. But I wasn't in a hurry to name names. And the pyramid incident wasn't "some kid". It was the author of the book who was doing the filing and he was caught by one of his students who was helping him on a dig.

And I, for one, am glad that skeptics DO make the important decisions! Scientists approach things with a healthy dose of skepticism and look for evidence before believing new ideas. As Dr. Marcello Truzzi (one of the foremost investigators of paranormal and pseudoscientific claims) said; "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Hugh Lambert link
3/23/2014 05:56:16 am

I really appreciate your thoughtful, well reasoned comments. I had never heard of Scott Walker until he approached our tribe, the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, about an artifact known as the Bat Creek Stone. Even though the Smithsonian has declared the object as an obvious forgery,Mr Walter wanted to prove that it was created by The Lost Tribes of Israel and the 9th century.no he wants to do the same thing to one of our local archaeological sites. Perhaps he wants to prove that aliens from the planet Zanadoo created the Judaculla rock.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
3/23/2014 02:37:30 pm

Thanks for your perspective. I recently wrote a couple of posts about the Judaculla Rock story. Please feel free to share your thoughts there as well.

Reply
hugh lambert
3/23/2014 02:47:51 pm

Thank you Jason.

The greater issue was the tendency in the past (distant and otherwise) for archaeologists and anthropologist to use science to prove essentially that Indians were too stupid and ignorant to create the works that people would rather a tribute to European explorers of ancient days. This is a way to justify colonization, the "Indians were not using it anyway" argument. This was a natural extension of the discovery Doctrine, the concept that allowed the Pope to divide the world in the 15th century between Spain and Portugal, and used by colonizing powers since that time.

it is amazingly intelligent and it doesn't, but not at all surprising. All that remains, I suppose, is to pray for enlightenment. Thank you for the chance to air grievances.

hugh lambert
3/23/2014 02:47:57 pm

Thank you Jason.

The greater issue was the tendency in the past (distant and otherwise) for archaeologists and anthropologist to use science to prove essentially that Indians were too stupid and ignorant to create the works that people would rather a tribute to European explorers of ancient days. This is a way to justify colonization, the "Indians were not using it anyway" argument. This was a natural extension of the discovery Doctrine, the concept that allowed the Pope to divide the world in the 15th century between Spain and Portugal, and used by colonizing powers since that time.

it is amazingly intelligent and it doesn't, but not at all surprising. All that remains, I suppose, is to pray for enlightenment. Thank you for the chance to air grievances.

hugh lambert
3/23/2014 11:01:47 pm

Thank you Jason.

The greater issue was the tendency in the past (distant and otherwise) for archaeologists and anthropologist to use science to prove essentially that Indians were too stupid and ignorant to create the works that people would rather a tribute to European explorers of ancient days. This is a way to justify colonization, the "Indians were not using it anyway" argument. This was a natural extension of the discovery Doctrine, the concept that allowed the Pope to divide the world in the 15th century between Spain and Portugal, and used by colonizing powers since that time.

it is amazingly intelligent and it doesn't, but not at all surprising. All that remains, I suppose, is to pray for enlightenment. Thank you for the chance to air grievances.

hugh lambert
3/23/2014 11:02:16 pm

Thank you Jason.

The greater issue was the tendency in the past (distant and otherwise) for archaeologists and anthropologist to use science to prove essentially that Indians were too stupid and ignorant to create the works that people would rather a tribute to European explorers of ancient days. This is a way to justify colonization, the "Indians were not using it anyway" argument. This was a natural extension of the discovery Doctrine, the concept that allowed the Pope to divide the world in the 15th century between Spain and Portugal, and used by colonizing powers since that time.

it is amazingly intelligent and it doesn't, but not at all surprising. All that remains, I suppose, is to pray for enlightenment. Thank you for the chance to air grievances.

Kevin Cline
7/28/2014 01:40:54 pm

I am a qualified archaeologist and specialise in old Anglo Saxon Runes and Ogham Irish Runes. The translation by Wolter is correct and I strongly believe that someone is buried there and it is not fake. Indeed we are proposing a joint Anglo/Usa dig at this site in 2015 once funding is in place. Keep in touch with us at Oxford Uni for fresh info on the dig.

Reply
terry the censor
7/28/2014 03:17:09 pm

Mr. Cline, can you be more specific about your qualifications and any current academic positions or affiliations? Google has zero hits for any combination of the terms "Kevin Cline Oxford archaeology Ogham runes."

To take seriously your validation of Wolter, we need to feel secure that you are what you say you are. (No insult to you, just that the fringe field, Wolter included, is pocked with "experts" who vastly overstate their qualifications.)

Reply
Mike Jones
1/2/2016 04:50:37 pm

Of course, terry the censor got no response from Kevin Cline.

Historian
7/13/2015 01:03:34 pm

The interior of the characters display no patina. I strongly believe you're wasting your time.

Reply
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Reply
Daniel Henn
10/18/2014 07:58:20 am

Any updates

Reply
Vic O`Donnell
12/9/2014 07:55:58 am

In reading the comments posted I have noticed on numerous occasions that Scott Wolter is indentified as being an Archeologists when in fact he identifies himself as an Forensic Geologist! As for Steve Ross the Arizona State Archeologist " just being there for show" it is obvious that his presence was to ensure that the integrity of the Archeology Site was maintained and that no un-authorized excavation was conducted by anyone involved in the filming. Mr. Wolter does seem to have somewhat of a fixation on star patterns found at or on archeological sites/artifacts.Having watched several of his programs and knowing that the outcome will always be the same (ie) unsolved, there is however a certain amount of educational value in them. The places visited and the history of those places cannot be minimalized or dismissed as fakes and therefore truly do have an educational benefit to all of us who may never have the opportunity to see them in person!

Reply
Tom Gilleland link
4/17/2015 06:32:55 pm

This cave was mapped by cavers in Nov 1981, and there were no rune marks on the rock . I visited the cave in 2005 and the runes were present at that time. They are certainly not old, and the burial story is clearly a work of fiction. The real history of this small cave is the interesting pictographs on the ceiling. Though I do find it interesting that someone spent considerable time carving odd runes on a rock sometime between 1981 and 2005. Please be thoughtful if you visit this site, and don't touch the pictographs or dig in the floor for something that isn't there.

Tom - Arizona Cave Survey

Reply
Terryn Maybeck
6/19/2015 05:46:33 am

Far from being educated in runes, I recently came back from Sweden and saw a number of rune stones, then studied about them. All the runes were closely spaced next to each other. The ones found on this site are spaced far apart- just another speculation to throw into the pot.

Reply
mike
8/1/2015 01:36:28 pm

What if one was having fun studying rune stones of different time period, got drunk, tossed some up giving for a prophecy, then wrote what time and chance and gravity had to say about how his ruins fell, who knows

Reply
Revenwyn
10/14/2015 08:59:01 pm

I'm willing to bet it was eh old guys who sent the picture who actually wrote the thing.

Reply
Adam
2/6/2016 08:42:35 pm

I'd love to visit this site. I live by the Mustang Mountains. Can anyone give me directions to the site?

Reply

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        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
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