I’m not quite sure how to give background on an idea that is not already an established part of fringe history. The focus of America Unearthed S02E13 “The Spearhead Conspiracy,” a spear point in Hawaii allegedly connected to Mexico, occurred too recently (2009) to have a great deal of scholarly material, and the question of a Polynesian connection to Mesoamerica is obviously not beyond the realm of possibility. Archaeologists, have in the past used Hawaii as an ethnographic comparison and model for the Maya in terms of the obsidian trade, and a highly controversial claim holds that the Mapuche of Chile—though not Mexico—share a word for obsidian with Polynesians from Easter Island. Therefore, I am going to write about the history of extraordinary claims about Polynesia since the spine of this episode is a rather simple test of where the obsidian used in the spearhead originated. Background The Polynesians have traditionally been an afterthought among fringe historians, sort of second-class citizens. Ignatius Donnelly mentioned them only once in Atlantis: The Antediluvian World, and then only secondhand to discount them as possessing any genuine Atlantis tradition. In fact, he considered the Pacific impassable. Of the many routes Donnelly and other fringe historians proposed for Old World peoples to migrate to America, the Pacific was not one of the more popular. The Bering Strait, the Viking route across the North Atlantic, and a southern Atlantic route between western Africa and Brazil were all considered much more probably down to the 1920s. The exception to this was claims for medieval Chinese voyages to the West Coast of America, which in the 1800s were sometimes thought to have taken a Pacific path. (Donnelly thought they came via Africa and the Atlantic.) In Polynesia itself, the early investigators had little good to say about the history of the islands. In 1829, the missionary William Ellis published an early theory that the Polynesians were in fact related to the peoples of South America in his Polynesian Researches (vol. 2). Using the same evidence later marshaled by Thor Heyerdahl, he wrote that the two cultures were similar to each other—and to Madagascar off Africa! There are also many points of resemblance in language, manners, and customs, between the South Sea Islanders and the inhabitants of Madagascar in the west; the inhabitants of the Aleutian and Kurile islands, in the north, which stretch along the mouth of Behring’s straits, and form the chain which connects the old and the new worlds; and also between the Polynesians and the inhabitants of Mexico, and some parts of South America. The general cast of feature, and frequent shade of complexion-the practice of tatauing [tattooing], which prevails among the Aleutians, and some of the tribes of America-the process of embalming the dead bodies of their chiefs, and preserving them uninterred-the game of chess among the Araucanians—the word for God being tew or tev—the exposure of their children—their games—their mode of dressing the hair, ornamenting it with feathers—the numerous words in their language resembling those of Tahiti, &c.; their dress, especially the poncho, and even the legend of the origin of the Incas, bear no small resemblance to that of Tii, who was also descended from the sun. Although he allowed that most believed the Polynesians to have come from Asia, he felt that it would be “easy to imagine how they could have proceeded from the east.” On the analogy of ships known to have been blown westward across the Pacific in historic times, he concluded that South Americans were blown to Polynesia, finding it difficult to believe that “Asian” people could have had sophisticated navigational skills for a westward voyage. He did, however, concede that it was possible that Polynesia’s islands were “the remains of a continent, originally stretching across the Pacific, and uniting Asia and America” that disappeared during the Flood of Noah. This brief speculation would return more than once in fringe versions of Polynesian history. Being a good follower of Jacob Bryant, he assumed the Polynesians worshiped Noah’s Ark and descended from the first family after the Flood. The first European explorers generally considered the Polynesians to be sensual, amiable, and dim. Therefore, the stone temples and idols found on islands across the major culture areas of the Pacific could not have been the work of the Polynesians, and certainly not in the historical period, when the Polynesians populated the Pacific. Instead, many assumed that the stone works were the ruins of a lost white civilization. Here is how the New International Encyclopedia described the stone ruins in 1915: Stone structures are reported by savage informants as existing in the inland valleys of Bougainville, Solomon Islands, but it is not yet safe to attempt exploration, and by Prebendary Codrington in Gog of the Banks group, and in New Caledonia; these are of Melanesia. In nuclear Polynesia occur the Nanga in Fiji, the trilithon of Tonga, in Samoa walls in the mountains and the Fale-o-le-Fe‘e. In southeastern Polynesia walls and platforms are found in Rapa Iti, Pitcairn, and Easter islands, and walls in the Marquesas. In Micronesia there are stone remains on Howland Island; extensive remains at Tapak, Lele, and Metalanim in the Caroline Islands; interesting structures at Tinian in the Ladrones. The walls and platforms are built of unworked country rock, in general of cyclopean dimensions, erected without builder’s art or any use of cement. […] The modern Polynesian, an advanced neolithic type, has been less than 1000 years in the Pacific. The appearance of age in these megaliths and the absence of tradition of their erection (all the more noteworthy in a race which recites the history of a fragile mat through 15 generations and the story of a greenstone spearhead from even remoter antiquity) are strong evidence that the megalithic monuments of the Pacific islands far antedate the arrival of the Polynesians and are the work of a lost population. I discuss these claims somewhat facetiously in my parody book Cthulhu in World Mythology where I note the similarity between the stone ruins dedicated to the octopus god of war, Fale-o-le-Fe‘e, and the stone citadel of R’lyeh, home to the octopus-headed extraterrestrial god Cthulhu. By the end of the nineteenth century these ruins were recognized as the work of Polynesian people by scholars, missionaries, and travelers like William B. Churchward, George Turner, and John B. Stair, but because of the linger specter of racism, the historians who compiled encyclopedias were slow to acknowledge the obvious, clinging instead to the belief that the temples were thousands of years older than the Polynesians using them. From the “lost race” interpretation of the Polynesian ruins, the French occultist Louis Jacolliot (1837-1890) wrote in Histoire des Vierges: Les peuples et les continents disparus (1874) that the islands of the Pacific had once been united in a single continent, now sunken, and that this continent was the home of an ancient lost race. Non-existent imaginary Hindu writings would confirm that this continent was called Rutas. He originally placed it in the Indian Ocean, but by the time Helena Blavatsky read his works in compiling Isis Unveiled (1877), it was firmly in the Pacific. He attributed to Polynesia myth the belief that the continent had been home to “yellow men” and “black men” who were forever at war. Blavatsky used this as evidence for the existence of the equally fictitious continent of Lemuria, and the fake “Col.” James Churchward in turn reanimated Jacolliot’s whole story—down to the proof in lost writings in India—as the lost continent of Mu, which answered in all details but one to Rutas. Churchward was a racist, so he added to his Pacific continent of Mu (a name originally attributed to Atlantis by Augustus Le Plongeon) a ruling “white race” of “superior” attributes who kept the peace between the yellow and black peoples they kept as slaves. From Churchward the ancient astronaut theorist David Childress developed his own race-based prehistory where a ruling white race ran the Pacific Ocean and kept the Polynesians as slaves. From Churchward he borrows the idea that these white gods had blond hair and wore red turbans—the same seen atop the statues on Easter Island, monuments to the greatness of white people. It was, of course, Easter Island that was the focus on the most fringe speculation. Erich von Däniken claimed that the Easter Island script was “astonishingly” like Chinese (no fooling: Polynesians were pushed out of Asia by the Chinese), and he attributed the similarities to aliens. He also asserted in Gods from Outer Space (1970) that the aliens made the famous stone statues, the moai, “which they set up on stone pedestals along the coast so that they were visible from afar.” Graham Hancock argued that instead the culture of Easter Island was a close cousin to that of South America, both in turn the gift of the white people who lived in a lost civilization. To find, he said, stone works and writing “together and focussed on a remote island in the Pacific, apparently at once, is extremely hard to explain in terms of normal ‘evolutionary’ processes usually ascribed to human societies.” When I raised the point with him back in 2001 that other Polynesian peoples built statues and walls and temples, he told me: “Although there are other statue making cultures in Polynesia (e.g. see examples from Tahiti) they don’t look specially like Moai to me.” So the lost civilization colonized just one Pacific island. Hancock was here building off the famous work of Thor Heyerdahl, the great adventurer, who spent much of his life arguing that South Americans had settled the Pacific from the east, rather than Asians from the west. He argued that the material culture of the Pacific was too similar to that of Peru to be a coincidence, and that the stone architecture of the Polynesian temples was fairly close to that of Tiahuanaco (Tiwakanu) in Bolivia. Therefore, the people of Tiahuanaco had traveled to Easter Island under the god-king Viracocha and founded the island’s culture. As archaeologists Robert C. Suggs wrote in criticizing Heyerdahl in the 1960s: “Heyerdahl’s Peruvians must have availed themselves of that classical device of science fiction, the time machine, for they showed up off Easter Island in A.D. 380, led by a post-A.D. 750 Incan god-hero, with an A.D. 750 Tiahauanco material culture featuring A.D. 1500 Incan walls, and not one thing characteristic of the Tiahanaco period in Peru and Bolivia.” (Disclosure: I have spoken with Dr. Suggs in the past and know him slightly. He is one of the pioneers of Polynesian archaeology, helping establish the Southeast Asian origins of the Polynesians.) The lack of any South American artifacts in Polynesia helped seal the fate of Heyerdahl’s idea at midcentury. But there was in fact a connection between Polynesia and South America, and that was the sweet potato, an American crop that was also cultivated in Polynesia before the Europeans arrived and shares the same name, kumara, in both Quechua and Polynesian languages. Heyerdahl had argued that the sweet potato represented a South American contribution to Polynesia, but until the 1990s, there was no proof that the pre-Columbian varieties of sweet potato had been known in Polynesia. That changed with the discovery of the remains of one such potato types on Mangaia Island in 1992. More recently, DNA tests conducted in 2013 on a sweet potato sample obtained by Captain Cook before Europeans reintroduced the sweet potato to Polynesia suggest that the sweet potato originated in South America and was taken back to Polynesia by Polynesians who visited the Americas. It is now believed that this occurred around 1000 CE, according to the 2011 edited volume Polynesians in America: Pre-Columbian Contacts with the New World, itself somewhat controversial. Technically, of course, this evidence could support travel in either direction—either from Polynesia to South America or South America to Polynesia. The lack of any South American material in Polynesia, physical or genetic, suggests the contact came from the Pacific. There is also evidence that the Polynesians brought chickens to South America, but because the dates obtained for the chicken bones are so close to the time of European contact (1300-1400 CE), the margin of error does not exclude a post-Conquest date. Nevertheless, the archaeologists who excavated the bones in 2007 are certain they came from a pre-Spanish context. Some have also speculated that the Polynesians learned the art of trepanning from contact with South America, but the dates for trepanned skulls in Polynesia—1300 CE and later—exclude this possibility, according to the 2003 edited volume Trepanation: History, Discovery, Theory. Other evidence is more ambiguous but contributes toward a picture of occasional Polynesian contact with the Western coast not just of South America but perhaps North America as well. Terry Jones, the archaeologist who edited Polynesians in America, believes that there was contact between the Chumash people of southern California and Polynesians. Jones, whose specialty is North American archaeology rather than Polynesian, believes that the plank-sewn boats used by the Chumash are so different from those of neighboring tribes that they could only have diffused from Polynesia. His research partner, Kathryn Klar, a professor of Celtic linguistics, suggested that the name of the boat in Chumash, tomolo, is cognate with its Hawaiian name kumulaau from a proposed proto-Central Eastern Polynesian original *tumura’aakau. She has also identified several other Chumash words related to boats that seem similar to Polynesian words. Jones and Klar propose two Polynesian contact events, as Jones told the Ancient History Encyclopedia last year: We do not believe that contacts were by any means sustained, but we do see the likelihood of two distinct contact events: one close to c. 700 CE that resulted in conveyance of sewn-plank boat technology and the composite harpoon, and a second event around c. 1300 CE that resulted in diffusion of the compound bone hook, grooved and barbed bone fishhooks, and grooved and barbed shell fishhooks. The earlier event may have originated from central Polynesia, while the second was from Hawaii. Most archaeologists who have studied the Chumash reject the claim that the sewn-plank boats were delivered to them from Polynesia because these boats have a continuous development in the archaeological record from 700 CE to the present, as Lynn Gamble wrote in American Antiquity in 2002. While the physical remains can only be dated back that far, the appearance of deep sea fish species at Chumash sites prior to this period, going back to the first or second century CE, suggests that there had been deep-sea boats of some time, probably developmental phases of the sewn-plank canoe, centuries earlier. Gamble does not exclude the possibility of contact with Polynesia but reports that other experts feel that the two types of canoe are constructed so differently (both in shape and technique) that they are not likely to be directly related. What is perhaps interesting is Jones’s discussion of the academic response. He says that specialists in Pacific archaeology are themselves divided between a “long” and “short” chronology for Polynesian settlement. This gets technical, but the long and short of it is that the “short” chronology wouldn’t see the settlement of Hawaii until after the alleged arrival in California, which is problematic for Pacific scholars. He also says that while Europeans are receptive to the idea of Polynesian contact with the Americas, American archaeologists have been resistant because of fears that “our case denigrates Native Californians by implying that they were incapable of developing these innovations on their own (which we do not).” This is something we’ve seen over and again: When experts do not accept a controversial finding, the proponent accuses them of crying racism or being dogmatic, even when the objections are based on an interpretation of archaeological evidence or construction techniques. It reminds me a bit of the controversy over two other types of boats: The famous reed boats of Lake Titicaca which superficially resemble those of Egypt, and the bark boats of the Mandan that supposedly resembled those of the Welsh. In those cases, the similarities were coincidental. Jones’s and Klar’s work remains controversial, but the evidence seems to make a strong case for sporadic contact between Polynesia and South America. I’m not so sure about the North American connection. The Episode Our show opens with Kennewick Man, of all things, the number one exhibit in the world of fringe thinkers who are focused on establishing a European—specifically Caucasian—presence in the New World because in the 1990s Jim Chatters, who excavated the resto of the skeleton (and whom we shall meet), said that the skeleton might be Caucasoid. For now, we simply see two men pull a skull from some water at Kennewick, Washington in 1996, and then the opening credits roll. I have no idea how this fits into a story about Polynesians, but I can take a guess.
After the credits, we are in Hawaii to investigate a spear point found in Hawaii. The photograph shows a stereotypical arrowhead-shaped spear point made of volcanic glass of a green-gold color. Wolter tells us that Hawaiian obsidian isn’t that color, so he meets with Janet Six, a University of Hawaii archaeologist, who tells him that the spear point may be distinctive Mexican Pachuca obsidian, and Wolter asserts that the mythic “Land of Mist and Fog” is assumed to be Mesoamerica, which is not true. It is possible to interpret myths that way, but to assert that they are unquestioningly related to Mesoamerica stretches the evidence. After the first commercial, we dispense with the usual on-screen recap in favor of a more sedate spoken recap. I am rather dumbfounded that Wolter is uninterested in proving that the Polynesians reached Mexico—which would actually rewrite history—and instead cares only for whether they hit within the borders of the mainland United States. (Hawaii, after all, is already part of the United States.) At the University of Hawaii, Wolter talks with Terry Hunt about Polynesian history and the role of the sweet potato and chickens (discussed above) in demonstrating that the Polynesians reached South America. Wolter seems uninterested in this and presses Hunt on whether the Polynesians reached North America. Hunt tells Wolter about the Chumash people, also discussed above, whose boats may or may not resemble Polynesian vessels. “That would change history!” Wolter enthuses, finally rousing himself to become interested in something related to the Polynesians once a mainland U.S. connection pops up. Apparently Mesoamerica is not good enough for this show. Wolter goes to Maui to meet with the men who found the obsidian spearhead in 2009, Trevor Carter and Bryan Axtell. Axtell is an actor who formed a production company shortly after finding the spearhead, and I am unable to determine anything about Trevor Carter. A man of the same name was busted as part of a major gambling sting in 2012, but I don’t think it’s the same guy. Unfortunately, Wolter isn’t able to maintain interest for long, so we are subjected to a Manly Adventure as he zip lines across the ravine to meet the men. Carter and Axtell tell Wolter about discovering the spear head by literally stumbling over it. The men strangely tell Wolter that they were impressed by “the energy” that it “put off,” which implies a supernatural connection. The men tell Wolter that Park officials did not take an interest in the spearhead because it did not sound like a Hawaiian artifact, and one of the men had a picture of the spearhead tattooed on his body. This is the second time in this show’s history that someone has shown him his tattoo in lieu of evidence. Last time it was Ogham writing. Wolter is outraged that the Park Service reclaimed the spearhead shortly before Wolter came to investigate it, some four years after its discovery, and he implies—but does not state—that this has nefarious intent. It was most likely due to the two men contacting the Park Service and rousing official interest. After the break, both men assert that the Park Service only took interest in the artifact because they “knew you (Wolter) were coming.” Wolter wants to know why the Park Service took the artifact, and no one seems aware that archaeological material found within the boundaries of a national park are the property of the United States government. “I’ve never heard of anything like this before,” Wolter says. “I’ve never heard of a sting operation like this.” The men agree that the government is trying to get “in” in Wolter’s investigation. Afterward, Wolter dutifully reports that it’s illegal to remove artifacts from national parks, but slips the line in as a voice over so that viewers are likely to miss it amidst the talk about conspiracies. The men tell Wolter that the Park Service won’t let anyone speak to them until the investigation is over. I suppose on Monday I’ll have to call the National Park Service to find out about this. Wolter does not appear to actually contact the Park Service to ask for their views. That might turn up a logical explanation and undermine the evidence for Wolter as a martyr for the Truth. Wolter pretends to receive a text message from Janet Six, who has tested the obsidian (obviously long before, since the Park Service has the spearhead) and found that it matches the Mexican sample. Unfortunately, there is no way to prove that the spearhead was actually left behind by Polynesians and not tourists, hoaxers, or travelers since the archaeological context is entirely absent. Further, no one checks with Mexican archaeologists to see whether the spearhead is in fact an ancient Mexican artifact (and if so, from which culture) or a more recent tourist knockoff. After the break we get a recap on screen followed by a verbal recap. Then Wolter gives up on what should have been the centerpiece of the entire America Unearthed series—actual hard evidence of contact, allegedly!—to go off to California to meet Terry Jones. Jones shows Wolter a Chumash tomol and a Polynesian canoe that both use similar sewn-plank styles. Jones shows Wolter an image of a Polynesian canoe that is much closer to the tomol than the seagoing Polynesian vessels typically associated with Polynesia. Even Jones admits that the seagoing boats were different. Jones also reviews the linguistic evidence and the evidence of fishhooks that suggests a Polynesian connection to the Chumash. It’s not impossible, but more work is needed to prove this. We then waste time watching Wolter paddle the Chumash tomol. Wolter speaks with a Chumash woman who tells him that there are Chumash words that are similar to Polynesian words, but this is not an “oral tradition” as Wolter asserts but rather the woman is repeating for Wolter what she has learned from the work of Jones. She then tells Wolter that Kennewick Man was Polynesian. This is prima facie stupid. Polynesians did not become Polynesians until they left Southeast Asia around 500 CE. Any connection to Kennewick Man—who dates back to 7600 BCE—is due only to the deep shared history of Polynesians and Native Americans in ancestral Asia. The Chumash woman is mangling claims from University of New Mexico anthropologist Joseph Powell, who claimed that the teeth of Kennewick Man were characteristic of the Sundadont group, whose modern representatives are the Ainu of Japan and the Polynesians, and other anthropologists like Jim Chatters (whom we’ll meet anon), who have also suggested a connection between the skull size and shape and the Ainu and Polynesians. In other words, Kennewick Man, if they are correct (and this is not certain), was part of an ancestral genetic group that was once prominent in Asia but which has now been largely displaced by modern Asians. This is not the same as saying he was a Polynesian—the people who colonized the Pacific islands between 500 and 1200 CE, some 8,000 or 9,000 years later. After the last break, Wolter recaps in voice over what he’s discussed so far, but he then reveals his real interest. It isn’t in finding Polynesians in Mexico (why, that might actually rewrite textbooks!). Instead, it’s again going back to look for the first Americans. He talks with Will Thomas, who found the Kennewick skull in 1996, and we waste time listening to the story of how the bones were uncovered. Then we slowly drive to Jim Chatters’s lab. Chatters sued to study Kennewick Man, and he is the one who accidentally set off the wave of white supremacist ranting about the skeleton when he declared it “Caucasoid” before revising his claims later to suggest that the skull’s closest relatives were the Ainu and Polynesians. Wolter is upset that he can’t view the skull, so he decides to waste precious minutes showing us how a 3D printer can be used to make a copy of the skull from its CAT scans. This is all for show since the results are predetermined: We know that Chatters sees a connection to the Polynesians that other anthropologists attribute to Clovis-era genetic diversity, lost around 6000 BCE when there was a dramatic shift in population demographics. Wolter therefore illogically concludes that the Polynesians were in America in 7600 BCE, some 8000 years before the Polynesians ever settled Polynesia. He seems unaware of Polynesian prehistory, or the Asian populations from which they descended. He finishes the season by drawing on his glowing map in his lab to connect random sites into a giant M with a crossed center, a symbol from his new book, which he believe stands for the Mary Magdalene Holy Bloodline conspiracy. This is utter bullshit since the sites have nothing to do with one another and Mary Magdalene was never mentioned this season. It seems to be a teaser for the upcoming season, meant as a parallel to the ludicrous Fibonacci curve drawn on last season’s map. And so, after a season of half-baked treasure hunts the turned up nothing, attempts to resurrect the myth of the Mound Builders, and multiple efforts to suggest the existence of an endless conspiracy aiming to use Confederate gold to finance global genocide, it all ends with this: Wolter finally “finds” (well, reports someone else’s findings) about a spearhead that might actually prove something, and instead of running this down to make a solid case, he instead gives up and doesn’t care because it’s in Mexico! For crying out loud! The only interesting piece of new information this show has ever shown, and Wolter uses it primarily to support claims for an anti-Wolter government conspiracy. Of course it’s all about him! I have to admit that this season was more a slog to get through than the last. The episodes were slower, with fewer outrageous claims per hour. On the one hand, it meant that I could review them faster since there was less to investigate, but on the other hand it made for programs that were occasionally exceedingly boring. The program’s new Saturday time slot didn’t help; I typically like to review shows in the morning when I am fresher and more alert, but I have other obligations on Sundays, and this made it hard on me to produce timely reviews. I could use some time off before the show starts up again. If there is going to be more Holy Bloodline conspiracy stuff, I may need a long break.
281 Comments
CHV
2/22/2014 02:18:55 pm
I love it when Scott likes to think of himself as a would-be Fox Mulder of archaeology (not that he's got such a degree) locked in a constant struggle with Big Brother for custody of "the truth" (which, of course, is out there).
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jim
10/15/2015 09:53:40 am
There could be a more simple explanation to the spear point "discovery"....Perhaps a hiker had one as a necklace,,, and it broke free..? Anyway,,, because of a lack of game in a volcanic crater,,, it seems unlikely that a hunter left it there...What ever the story,,, I think we can all agree that Mr. Wolter is a flamboyant jackass !
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Deborah
5/26/2019 02:42:24 pm
Hiw is it that there is no obsidian in Hawaii with all of the volcanos???
Americanegro
8/26/2016 06:27:40 pm
While previously I had given him the benefit of the doubt as being just aggressively stupid and uninformed, the Hawaii episode was the one that crystallized in my psyche according to the Holy Laws of Universal Creation and Universal Maintenance, in accordance with the Being-Law Ashkenadzoo and the Holy Octagrammaton, that Scott Wolter is an enormous fag.
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2/22/2014 02:53:34 pm
Diffusionism Reconsidered: Linguistic and Archaeological Evidence for Prehistoric Polynesian Contact with Southern California
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CFC
2/22/2014 03:22:53 pm
Thanks for the article Tara.
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titus pullo
2/24/2014 10:29:19 am
Tara,
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yakko
2/24/2014 11:14:04 am
One of my favorite examples of this is the Chinese word "yan". When pronounced with a falling tone, it means (among other things) "swallow". Just as in English, it means both "to swallow" something, and also the bird called the "swallow". When I first ran across that, all I thought of what "what a funny coincidence". But I'm sure I could make some meaningful connection about how the Chinese settled in England at some point, if I wanted to. 2/26/2014 09:36:32 am
Titus.
Jeanne
2/26/2014 10:27:45 am
On linguistics...yes, there can be similarities from both languages sharing a more ancient language. For example in Sanskrit the word for father is Pitar...Latin , pater...German Vatter, and others between India and Europe.....because they all are descendants of the indoeuropean language. I laughter one night on that crazy Ancient alien show...some guy said that the Hebrew word for man is Adam and the Arabic word for man is and an ( something close but I don't remember exactly)....so it MUST have been because aliens taught them these languages....rather than they both came from an older one. Nuts
yakko
2/26/2014 11:51:49 am
Good heavens, they don't even know that Hebrew and Arabic are closely-related Semitic languages, or be bothered to look it up? I suppose by that argument, the English and the Icelanders were taught the languages of their respective island by aliens because they both say "good day" and "good night" when greeting or leaving. I mean, just look how far apart those islands are, what other explanation could there be? :-) I've already used the expression "turtles all the way down", but that's what keeps coming to mind when I contemplate the ignorance of these buffoons.
david
2/22/2014 03:10:48 pm
I loved the fact that the people who found the spearhead seemed to be regurgitating scripted lines. Also the guy who didn't find the spearhead appeared to be half-baked while he was flapping his jaw. "Scott they took it from us." Lol really?! what a couple of fuckheads. But the best thing is how they supposedly found it. Like it was just laying out in the open amongst some rocks. It's been sitting their for a few hundred years, but it's still sitting on the surface in the Hawaiian climate? Scott should stick to the masons, knight's templar, holy grail, arc of the covenant stuff. Because real history seems to not really mean anything to him.
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Seeker
2/22/2014 07:39:32 pm
I also wasn’t impressed by the guy(s) who allegedly found the spearhead. If it is a genuine artifact, don’t people have any clue they aren’t supposed to remove items found in a National Park because: 1) it’s illegal 2) it’s so important for experts to investigate them in situ and 3) it’s incredibly disrespectful? This seemed again like an instance of AU treating the audience like complete idiots. The only thing worse than these guys was how the beer swilling discoverers of Kennewick man treated human remains. Pretty pathetic.
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Harry
2/23/2014 02:50:11 am
Dude, Where's My Spearhead? Or:
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/22/2014 03:53:38 pm
Ummm … What the … ???
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Only Me
2/22/2014 04:54:11 pm
"And so, after a season..."
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Dave Lewis
2/23/2014 02:12:21 pm
Phil-ibustering, now that really funny!
Only Me
2/23/2014 05:53:13 pm
Thank you. Just trying to spread a little humor all around.
KIF
2/22/2014 06:29:19 pm
I think you found the episode to your liking, Reverend.
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Matt Mc
2/23/2014 01:17:12 am
"He finishes the season by drawing on his glowing map in his lab to connect random sites into a giant M with a crossed center, a symbol from his new book, which he believe stands for the Mary Magdalene Holy Bloodline conspiracy"
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2/23/2014 01:30:31 am
It appears to be the stylized AVM symbol Wolter discusses in chapter 6 of Akhenaten, though it is slightly different (missing the upper "v"), as though he were drawing an incomplete one meant to indicate more is to come. 2/23/2014 01:31:52 am
Oh, and it also resembles some of the loose "Hooked X" symbols Wolter ascribes to pre-medieval times.
KIF
2/23/2014 03:20:01 am
Seeing the "X" is reminiscent of seeing the Turin Shroud everywhere
The Other J.
2/23/2014 11:24:08 am
I wish I could one-up Matt Mc's comment. 2/22/2014 05:18:53 pm
Bryan Axtell:"they took it from us".Scott Wolter:"I`ve never heard anything like this before...".
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RLewis
2/23/2014 02:24:07 am
As for the timing... I assume the film crew must ask for permission to film in the area. I'm sure that tipped the Park Services off about the subject and potential "stolen" artifact.
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Matt Mc
2/23/2014 03:27:18 am
From my experience from shooting in public parks you need to apply approximately 3 to 6 months in advance to get the shooting permit. Permit authorization is also very specific as to the day and time or day. It is a simple process but with a show like America Unearthed I think the schedules they do are rather loose since throughout both season they have avoided in shooting in places where a permit must be granted. Honestly it says less about being denied a permit (seldom are they refused unless it shows a military or other gov't building or like place) and more about Committee films saving money and time and the possibility that they shoot with a chaotic schedule. 2/23/2014 05:02:03 am
I am far from being a specialist but I participated in two archeological digs (Nan Madol/Pohnpei & Aksum/Ethiopia) during the first year of my M.Sci.
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An Over-Educated Grunt
2/23/2014 07:29:44 am
Tara -
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/24/2014 01:27:04 am
Absolutely, and most places in the US have historical societies, many of whom sponsor open-to-the-public dig days where you can come out and work a sieve under professional supervision. Very few people show up to the follow-on "assemble pottery shards" days, funny enough. Virginia was great in that respect, there were open-access archaeology sites all over the state even outside that season. You could even get down in the working grids if you were willing to make a few extra phone calls.
Matt Mc
2/24/2014 02:06:39 am
Grunt, So...was Scott ever allowed to see the spearhead? Did the park services study it? What are their findings? I felt like he left leaving the kids who found it hanging in the lurch. Most places, when you make a find like that will make a replica of your finding. What if the kids want to name it?
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Jeanne
2/26/2014 10:32:11 am
Which is what makes me think this is another scam
Just Sayin'
2/22/2014 05:41:19 pm
As a flint-knapper for over 25 years, I can say with a certain degree of personal experience that the "spear point" in question is made of obsidian from Mexico, and hundreds of them can be purchased today at any number of tourist trap/gift shops throughout Mexico. In addition, the style is non-functional and non-ceremonial. It could also be easily dated by a process called "Obsidian Hydration".
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Dan
2/22/2014 06:41:58 pm
Wait. You're saying that two white stoners in Hawaii didn't happen to make a great anthropological find four years ago that will change the history of North America? Color me shocked. Shocked, I say!
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Dan
2/22/2014 06:45:35 pm
You can also buy them pretty easily on ebay:
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severina
2/23/2014 12:10:31 am
*snort*
Mark E.
2/23/2014 12:45:37 am
From the pictures it looked a little too perfect, you would expect some mineralization if it had been laying on the ground for a long time.
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yakko
2/24/2014 11:25:51 am
Being a long-time stoner...let me rephrase that: As someone who picks up interesting rocks and such, and uses them as interior decoration, and buys nice pieces of artwork at cheap prices, I somehow came into position of an obsidian spearhead. It's obviously a recently-carved gift item or conversation piece, and was sold to me as such. Now I'm thinking of burying it out in the woods somewhere, and then digging it up, with a camera crew in tow of course, with the claim that Aztecs settled New England, and that's why we have so many Latinos around here. :-)
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Michael Harris
2/22/2014 07:00:58 pm
I love how a fragile spear point can lay on the ground for 1000's of years, next to a volcano, and still have it's crisp, sharp edges. If one didn't know that this show has to be 100% true and factual then one might think it was planted because it looks like a million other "tourist points" you can purchase all over Mexico and the south.....Man it was hard typing that "100% true and factual" part, I was laughing way too hard.
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severina
2/23/2014 12:06:13 am
Meh.
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Michael Haynes
2/23/2014 12:29:42 am
I actually liked this episode. Having said that, I realize that what I find interesting doesn't necessarily appeal to everyone else, so it wouldn't surprise me if this episode turned out to be low-rated among AU's general audience. By now, viewers should recognize Scott's operatus modi (I probably wrote that wrong): He's only interested in Pre-Columbian contact within the present-day territorial US, he doesn't pass up an opportunity for a physical challenge or bashing Columbus's discovery, and everyone in academia and the government is personally against him. Once you get past that, the subject matter of this episode was fascinating.
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Clint Knapp
2/23/2014 01:43:05 pm
Modus operandi, or just M.O. for short.
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Matt Mc
2/23/2014 01:09:06 am
What interested me about the finding of the spearhead is right before they introduced the people who found it they said the last time the volcano erupted was 1790 or so and that the spearhead was found inside the mouth of the dormant volcano.
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2/23/2014 01:16:13 am
Great catch. That does sound like prima facie evidence that the spearhead is from after 1790.
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RLewis
2/23/2014 02:45:38 am
I think there was some confusion here - or maybe I heard it wrong. The last eruption of Mauna Kea (isn't that where it was found?) was about 4,600 years ago. Kilauea (on the Big Island) erupted in 1790.
Matt Mc
2/23/2014 03:29:06 am
I am pretty sure they said 1790, I am sure however your are correct. I will watch that part again when I get home.
Mark E.
2/23/2014 03:43:02 am
They were at Haleakala National Park on Maui. The volcano there last erupted sometime between AD 1480 and 1600, a 1790 date was revised after better radiocarbon testing.
Mark E.
2/23/2014 02:20:31 am
That is a bit of a "gotcha". The USGS is showing 10 eruptions over the last 1000 years for the East Maui Volcano.
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Laetitia
2/23/2014 02:02:46 am
In the sentence in the first paragraph starting with "The focus of...," it should read "too recently", not "to recently." Great blog post!
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Mandalore
2/23/2014 02:02:47 am
The Polynesians did settle Madagascar. Genetic, linguistic, and cultural studies have linked an early portion of the population of the island to Polynesians.
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The Other J.
2/23/2014 11:33:51 am
I think that evidence suggestions Madagascar as one point of origin for the people who eventually became the Polynesians.If I remember correctly, there is some DNA evidence tying Madagascar to Taiwan, and then some indigenous people of Taiwan to early Polynesian people. (But that Taiwanese point of origin is still being explored.)
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yakko
2/24/2014 11:39:39 am
I know a young man who as an infant was adopted by an American couple of my acquaintance. He's always stuck out like a sore thumb in the Swedish Lutheran parish he grew up in, and when I asked, everyone said he was "Chinese". Now he's 19 years old, and he's taller than I am (and I'm not exactly short!) and big and husky - definitely not what you think of when you hear "Chinese". In a conversation with his parents, I discovered that he was born in Taiwan. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the ethnic native Taiwanese (as opposed to those whose ancestors came from the mainland) were Polynesians of some kind, judging from this sample of exactly one Taiwanese person I've ever met. I have met a lot of Hawaiians, though, and he definitely looks more like them than he does mainstream Chinese.
Mark M
5/8/2014 04:30:02 pm
I may be 3 months late, but in case I'm not the only one who likes to read the comments sections to months-old articles, I'll try and clear things up.
Titus pullo
2/23/2014 03:07:53 am
Not a bad episode. I didn't fall asleep but we already know about the sweet potato controversy, it's in all the somewhat fringe theories like Gavin Menzies. I would like a show on the Polynesians, what they did was remarkable. I also can say AE has made me very interested in paleo Indian research. The debates when modern humans got here and how is really fascinating and not as simple as what our high school text books said. I'd give he season a C with some shows that were interesting, some contrived and some just boring. Then again given alternatives, AE is better than msnbc or cnn or the oprah channel or lmn where they run movies on vengeful wife's offing their no good husbands, ha ha
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Pacal
2/23/2014 04:40:29 am
Jason you say:
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/23/2014 04:54:45 am
Some of these questions and findings have come and gone through the years without a lot of public attention …
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Matt Mc
2/23/2014 05:17:45 am
Monty Python was always such a great watch.
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Mark E.
2/23/2014 05:27:30 am
That does beg the question of just how tall are you Rev.?
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Only Me
2/23/2014 05:33:31 am
That would be impressive, since two theories of how the ancestors of the Polynesians spread (Express Train and Slow Boat models), have those ancestors expanding out of Taiwan c. 3000-1000 BCE.
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Matt Mc
2/23/2014 05:44:04 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrNRH1szgFQ
Only Me
2/23/2014 06:00:04 am
I was going to say I was convinced...but they destroyed all the evidence! No Polynesians at Egypt, no Sumerians at Abu Simbel! A curse on all short TV hosts and archaeologists!
Matt Mc
2/23/2014 06:03:29 am
The question now is who is more absurd Monty Python or Scott Wolter?
Only Me
2/23/2014 06:17:01 am
I'd answer that honestly, but I fear that I would be accused of making just another "snarky, personal attack". But then again, maybe that's answer enough. 2/23/2014 06:25:28 am
I think Scott is realizing an old dream.Being a controversial figure,yet a successful business man.He wants to "change the course of history" (aka rewriting history as we know).He sees himself as the innovator,the challenger,the man who relentlessly struggle to bring the truth to light.Scott is that perpetual kid who looks at the stars,thinking "one day I`ll be an astronaut".On top of it,there is the ultimate rush in being a "real life Indiana Jones".I don't see any problem with that,we desperately need individuals who think outside the box, who are willing to take risks. I am merely asking him to do it the right way.
Matt Mc
2/23/2014 06:30:11 am
I quite agree Tara.
Mark E.
2/23/2014 06:44:29 am
At least with Monty Python we found out that the Holy Grail is in Castle Augh and guarded by Frenchmen. 2/23/2014 07:11:43 am
Matt.
Matt Mc
2/23/2014 07:25:39 am
Tara that is what I was referencing when I mentioned ego. And it goes well beyond Wolter. When I worked Discovery Health CME - which was a broadcast continuing education program for hospital professional that used to be on the now defunct Discovery Channel - I met many a top research scientist and doctors all the shows where panels and discussed topics like fibromyalgia to Alcoholism. One of the thing I found out from working on the show is that people whose work mostly agreed with each other and working in the same direction would argue on and off camera only because they felt the need to protect their ego.
Matt Mc
2/23/2014 07:30:39 am
I ment to say the now defunct Discovery Health Channel 2/23/2014 07:59:42 am
Matt
Matt Mc
2/23/2014 08:10:41 am
I have the same expectations or desires as you in the case of ego, I wish others had that same. Perhaps I am jaded, working in TV for all these years has helped that. But I do agree with you on what would be ideal. I also sadly see that in the quest to get the message out people get caught up in the attention and the need to defend themselves to keep the attention. You in my experience are unique i(in a good way) in the sense that you just want to help inform and I hope that stays with you. I just come from a world where ego drives everything, TV (whether it is news or a cartoon) is and always will be driven by ego and it is the nature of the beast.
Gunn
2/25/2014 05:50:42 am
I think being missed here in this line of conversation is the fact that Wolter does actually believe in some of his observations. It's not all simply a game for money.
Jason D.
2/25/2014 05:51:11 pm
Give a blind man enough darts and eventually he will hit the dartboard, if only by shear luck. If Wolter turns out to be correct here and there, it doesn't erase the fact that his methods are severely flawed. 2/23/2014 07:32:04 am
Jason,
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Petr J
2/23/2014 07:41:28 am
Jason-
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2/23/2014 08:01:17 am
It's an area of dispute. Anthropologists who surveyed the extant remains of people living prior to 6000 BCE have noted the greater diversity of skull size and shape. There are competing explanations, which are of course interpretations: It can be seen as genetic diversity among the founding population, or as multiple waves of immigration from one or more lands. Since genetic studies indicate connections to Asia, the former interpretation is more widely held than the latter.
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Petr J
2/23/2014 10:55:41 am
It sound like the actual record of men (homo sapiens) in America pre-6000 BC has holes in it big enough to drive a Mack through.
J.A.D
2/24/2014 05:01:36 am
is this like the way the Neolithic Revolution hit Europe?
Will
2/23/2014 08:09:55 am
To begin with, a point to clarification: I believe your starting premise is incorrect and baseless, namely that this episode is somehow inferior because it is "an idea that mostly emerged as a way of dollar cost averaging the expense of a trip to Hawaii last seen in the Menehune episode. " Where do you evidence this suggestion? In fact, the production company behind the series visited Hawaii on two separate occasions.
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Matt Mc
2/23/2014 08:20:22 am
It is not uncommon when planning a show that travels to make sure you use a location at least twice in a season. I don't see anything wrong with this and is common practice. AU used DC in several episodes ect. Most travel logue shows do this, I see no reason for AU to be exempt on using a location more than once to save on production costs.
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2/23/2014 08:31:32 am
It appears that you are Will Yates, a producer and writer for America Unearthed. Is that right? If they went to Hawaii twice, then I will correct the opening sentence. It does not change, however, the fact that I had no idea how to provide background on something that was not a pre-existing fringe claim.
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Clint Knapp
2/23/2014 02:13:10 pm
Not to nitpick, but "the production company behind the series" does not necessarily indicate a full filming crew/cast trip to produce actual content for the show. Can you elaborate further as to who was involved in both trips?
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The Other J.
2/23/2014 08:55:53 am
"DNA tests conducted in 2013 on a sweet potato"
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2/23/2014 11:28:19 am
Radiocarbon and DNA evidence for a pre-Columbian introduction of Polynesian chickens to Chile
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Pacal
2/23/2014 12:22:09 pm
Aside from the fact the find is still controversial. There is the fact that if it occurred it occurred just slightly before the Spanish came and further that pre-Columbian remains of chickens seem to be extremely rare in the pre-Columbian Americas. All those thousands of excavations of pre-Columbian sites have failed to turn up much in the way of chicken bones. So it appears that not only was the introduction of the chicken late, if it was pre-Columbian, it does not seem to have spread very widely, pre-Columbian. 2/23/2014 03:17:46 pm
Pacal Ok Tara, if you and "just me" do not believe the entire premise of this show, why the blog? I mean, if you truly can not wrap your minds around the Fact that Columbus was not the first non-indigenous person to come and live among the native Americans, why watch the show? Why discuss each episode? I am Native American, have heard the oral stories and belief them to be true. I have seen sights that date to pre-Columbus. If you don't believe, a tv show won't convince you, a blog won't convince you, you will have to get off your rear ends and go exploring and speaking with scientist who specialize in each area.
Only Me
2/25/2014 09:38:25 am
I'm not sure how to answer you're comment, Veronica, since you didn't even get my handle right. I will anyway. 2/26/2014 09:00:21 am
Veronica 2/23/2014 11:39:32 am
The Other J
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Gunn
2/24/2014 04:08:25 am
The Other J., feeling sorry for you in your mental fog, I return briefly to hopefully enlighten you.
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J.A.D
2/24/2014 05:16:45 am
Thanks, Gunn! It does look like someone from on high took
Dan
2/24/2014 06:07:44 am
Yeah, I admit the f-bomb was a bit harsh, but the entire "spearhead" thing was so absurd its frustrating that anyone is giving it any more than a laugh. I realized that Jason is confined to keeping things a bit serious as he looks over his shoulder at the Wolter-protectors, but we can be truthful about just how utterly ridiculous is the whole "spearhead" affair. 2/24/2014 11:52:04 am
It's hard to tell from a TV image what something really is. It sure looks like a modern souvenir spear point to me, but I'm not an expert in Mexican lithics, and I don't want to say anything I can't prove. Without examining the piece, or being able to consult scholarly literature about it, there isn't really much to go on other than superficial impressions.
Dan
2/24/2014 01:08:15 pm
There's an abundant amount of evidence that its a simple gift shop souvenir transported by a tourist from Mexico:
Harry
2/24/2014 10:38:02 pm
Gunn,
Harry
2/25/2014 05:11:40 am
To avoid any misinterpretation of my attitude, my "Welcome back! If only to visit" was a reaction to Gunn's "I return briefly...." I am certainly not saying that I would not welcome him back on a longer term basis.
Dan
2/23/2014 10:01:33 am
I'm still chuckling over the "spearhead", the stoner discoverers, and the obvious souvenir trinket nature of it.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/23/2014 10:19:53 am
But, seriously, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls --
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Clint Knapp
2/23/2014 02:23:41 pm
And yet, the show in question uses "evidence" with lengthy documentation to the contrary without paying any mind to said contradictions or, often, the personal financial motives of the people brought on the show to promote their "evidence".
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/23/2014 04:41:11 pm
Yes … And one of the CENTRAL questions that keeps on cropping up in the "America Unearthed" TV shows is … cultural diffusion ...
Only Me
2/23/2014 05:47:31 pm
You exaggerate. The only episodes that raise the question of cultural diffusion are the ones about the Maya, the Menehune, the Aztecs, the serpent mounds, the Solutreans and the Polynesians. That's six out of twenty-six episodes.
Clint Knapp
2/23/2014 05:52:54 pm
Those claims are examined as they happen in the show, Phil. Your initial post here was a condescending attempt to remind us "ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls" of voyages made for which there is evidence of and to use that example as excuse to continue accepting anything else you or your "friend and professional colleague" wish to extrapolate on.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/24/2014 02:06:02 am
Clint --
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/24/2014 03:54:34 am
"Only Me" -- 2/23/2014 03:26:30 pm
"I myself know nothing, except just a little, enough to extract an argument from another man who is wise and to receive it fairly..."
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An Over-Educated Grunt
2/24/2014 01:35:55 am
Really? The Vikings sailed farther than the Moon?
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Matt Mc
2/24/2014 02:13:16 am
The Vikings made it to the moon? is that one of Alan Bulter theories? I wonder if the Nazi's just simply occupied the old Viking Bases when they fled to the moon. It all is beginning to come together.
Mandalore
2/24/2014 02:47:32 am
The Nazis on the Moon had best look out for: Jews in Space! (Where's the reverb key on this thing?)
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/24/2014 02:51:06 am
In space, no one can hear you scream, but it's irrelevant, since once your ribs are cracked and your lungs pulled out your back in sacrifice to the Victory-Giver, you can't scream anyway.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/24/2014 10:45:46 am
LOL … 2/24/2014 10:50:04 am
I believe "Jews in Space" was the last segment of the coming attractions at the end of "History of the World Part 1."
Matt Mc
2/24/2014 11:09:23 am
That is correct Jason along with a preview of "Hitler on Ice". Some much better comedies in the 70's and 80's. That said I am greatly saddened by Harold Ramis passing today, he was a great writer, actor and comedian. I hope he is out there busting ghosts wherever he is. :)
CFC
2/24/2014 03:27:04 am
I would like to know if the discovery of this spearhead actually happened, or was it made up for the episode? Also, was the Park Service even involved?
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/24/2014 03:43:26 am
Any artifacts taken out of their context become seriously problematic, which is not least of the reasons important areas and places and sites are (supposedly) protected by very strict laws and regulations ...
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CFC
2/24/2014 03:50:49 am
Perhaps you missed my point Phil. I'm curious if this was all made up?
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/24/2014 03:56:52 am
Obviously I have no personal direct knowledge of what if any reported facts were "made up" or exaggerated or any such thing …
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/24/2014 03:58:43 am
Which has what exactly to do with the question of "WAS THIS SPECIFIC INCIDENT COMPLETELY STAGED?"
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/24/2014 04:06:30 am
Anyone who has direct personal knowledge whether any portion of the show was "staged" is free to come forward … Otherwise, what is the bloody point … ???
Matt Mc
2/24/2014 04:17:08 am
Is called speculation, you know what Wolter does all the time. Only difference is that CFC is just speculating if Wolter did it he would claim it as fact. 2/24/2014 04:12:59 am
I have a request for information in to the Park Service in Hawaii. If and when they release a statement, I'll let you know.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/24/2014 04:34:17 am
Jason --
J.A.D
2/24/2014 05:25:15 am
thanx!
CFC
2/24/2014 01:32:13 pm
Staging the episode can take on many forms.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/24/2014 02:35:09 pm
"CFC" --
CFC
2/24/2014 03:39:29 pm
No Phil! I'm suggesting that the producers scripted the show in a way that made the Park Service look like they did something wrong when in fact they did their job. Not unthinkable given that the program regularly accuses academics, the Smithsonian Institution, the U.S. Government and others of wrongdoing and/or hiding something. Not much of a WOW Phil. Just a thought.
John R.
2/28/2014 04:13:22 am
I think it was not a coincidence it was the season finale this happened. I learned of a TV show on a major network where they actually fake bury artifacts in the ground and then the metal detectors go "beep beep". "We've got something." That was another show I heard that about recently.
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J.A.D
2/24/2014 05:50:04 am
China's First Emperor, the dude contemporary to Hannibal,
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J.A.D
2/24/2014 06:05:39 am
Outriggers have pontoons. The boats the Chumash had
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DAN D
2/24/2014 06:16:24 am
I found the info from PBS in this link to be interesting, It might be a little dated but good none the less. Click on the sections parts if interested,
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J.A.D
2/24/2014 07:22:03 am
just did. saw things said about sweet potatoes!
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/24/2014 01:28:11 pm
Huh …
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An Over-Educated Grunt
2/25/2014 02:59:22 am
That what is observed is a similarity, not an identity? That a broken argument in one place does not create a stronger argument in another? That any fraud weakens every other case that relies on marginal evidence?
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 04:42:37 am
The observed fact of "cultural diffusion" is noted initially when somebody notices that "this" looks very MUCH like "that" … It shows up in "material culture" -- lithic traditions, design of a boat, etc. … 2/24/2014 03:35:21 pm
The NPS had every right to reclaim the spearhead from Trevor Carter and Bryan Axtell since they had illegally removed the artifact four years ago when they discovered it--if their story is true. The NPS has a strict policy against relic hunters and treasure seekers, and if a person is caught in the act can be arrested or fined plus having the items uncovered seized. On a recent visint to Gettysburg National Battlefield Park I noticed several signs that announced that relic hunting was illegal on NPS property. What they should have done, if they really cared about the historical integrity of the sight and the preservation of the artifact (which I doubt, regardless of the tattoo) would have been to have left the artifact where it was and to have recorded where they found the item (GPS position for instance) and then notify the NPS. It was interesting that, according to Carter and Axtell that the NPS was not interested in their report, indicating to me that they were suspicious of the validity of their report and in my opinion only took interest when Scott Wolter announced that he was coming to Hawaii to film and were concerned (rightly) that after the episode the park would be besieged with treasure hunters looking for artifacts that "prove" Wolter's claims. On another note, I am glad for a change to see an episode that featured a group coming to Pre Columbia United States that were not white Europeans.
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Colin Hunt
2/25/2014 05:43:31 am
I think we would all like to see a healthy direct dialogue on this blog, or another independent arena, between people like Jason and the alternative theorists. Many theorists’ outrageous views have ultimately been proven correct, such as Galileo and more recently people like Stephen Hawkin, but those people knew they had to pass the necessary critical scientific peer review before their theories could be accepted, something current alternative theorists appear to resist and reject, to their own ultimate detriment.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 05:50:02 am
"Colin Hunt" (whoever you are) --
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An Over-Educated Grunt
2/25/2014 06:18:30 am
"Rev. Phil Gotsch" (whoever you are -
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 06:21:22 am
"Over Educated Grunt" --
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/25/2014 06:24:26 am
Bring something to the table worth discussing and I'd be happy to discuss it. In the meantime, any stoner working on the sixth year of his English degree can speculate, and that's the very most you bring of value.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 07:47:52 am
"Over Educated Grunt" --
Dan
2/25/2014 07:53:47 am
I later posted a series of reasons why its an obvious fake. For those who didn't already read this:
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 07:58:22 am
Who was that guy who simply flat out REFUSED to look through Galileo's telescope because he already KNEW that none of the planets *out*there* had "moons" or "rings" … BY DEFINITION ...
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Dan
2/25/2014 09:00:40 am
I don't know, "Red Herring"?
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 09:09:34 am
"Dan" --
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 09:10:55 am
obviously should be, (purported) rather than 9purported)
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/25/2014 09:39:15 am
Phil, do you not know how basic logic works? You don't have to prove that the more-likely outcome is false. You have to prove that the less-likely outcome is true. You can call it "keeping an open mind" all you want, but the funny thing about completely open vessels, they also tend to be empty.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 10:23:08 am
"Over Educated Grunt" --
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/25/2014 11:05:37 am
Of course, because "duh" is snark-free.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 11:28:51 am
"Over Educated Grump" --
Only Me
2/25/2014 09:14:53 am
The America Besmirched Formula
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Reid
2/25/2014 09:31:24 am
Well done!
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An Over-Educated Grunt
2/25/2014 09:50:37 am
I'd laugh, if it were just a joke.
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Gunn
2/25/2014 12:40:43 pm
Dude, Grunt, you just snarked yourself into a deletable offense, no doubt encouraged on by the dutifully spiteful Only Me--an unfashionable trouble-maker here.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 12:50:27 pm
Gunn --
Only Me
2/25/2014 02:51:31 pm
"We now go to Ollie Williams with an America Unearthed report. Ollie?"
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/26/2014 12:37:46 am
Gunn, that's a fine glass house you've built yourself there, and I especially admire that you've decided to use it as a stone launch pad. If anything I said offends the common woman's sensibilities where you live, they apparently breed them weak there. Meantime, I see no reason to be preached at by someone who routinely called anyone else obsessive over one-fifth of his total work, while admitting he didn't read the rest and constantly hijacking discussion to talk about his pet projects. You describe yourself rather vociferously as Christian; I suggest you tend to the log in your own eye before dealing with the mote in mine. 2/26/2014 05:55:18 am
Phil, the reason people don't like you here is because of your dogged loyalty to Scott Wolter. You will be chided for almost anything you say, just for being here on this blog as Wolter's friend. 2/26/2014 06:11:09 am
Gunn, I am spending 6 hours a day correcting and indexing page proofs. I don't have the time to sit here reading every single response. You could all just stop bickering with one another and make my life a bit easier.
Dan
2/26/2014 06:53:42 am
I do feel bad for you, Gunn. It seems that your belief, however ill-conceived, is genuine. Wolter seems a few years ago to be your savior -- finally a guy with some credentials willing to stick his neck out in support of KRS.
Gunn
2/26/2014 06:59:54 am
Okay, Jason...I guess it'll be like "New Rules" in Bill Mahr's program. The old rules are replaced, comically, with new rules. Oh well, it was nice to see the concentrated politeness here for a while. It was good for impressionable Tara (formerly "Tara the Terror), but the tough old goats here are another matter entirely, apparently.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/26/2014 07:12:23 am
Gunn --
Dan, yes I am completely sincere in believing the KRS is genuine, but I basically heard about the KRS and Wolter at about the same time, insomuch as I bought his X book at the Runestone Museum the first time I went there in June of 2010.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 12:23:13 pm
"Only Me" --
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Only Me
2/25/2014 01:43:36 pm
Phil, why do *you* waste your time coming to this blog, if it offends your sensibilities?
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 01:51:11 pm
"Only Me" --
Only Me
2/25/2014 02:44:09 pm
I've watched AU since the beginning, thinking it would be a series that explored archaeological discoveries in American history. Sadly, I was disappointed, when it became obvious it had more in common with Ancient Aliens, than a series like Mysteries at the Museum.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 02:53:42 pm
"Only Me" --
Only Me
2/25/2014 04:01:26 pm
I'll agree as soon as you concede that you don't make such pleas for civility unless it's directed at someone like myself.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 04:15:37 pm
"Only Me" --
Only Me
2/25/2014 04:39:12 pm
I can agree to that. I don't know about the last part, something about wishes being fishes, but let's see.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/25/2014 04:43:52 pm
"Only Me" --
Tom
2/25/2014 11:16:05 pm
For goodness sake people, stop feeding the damn trol!l ;)
Matt Mc
2/25/2014 11:49:04 pm
Well said Tom.
Martin R
2/27/2014 12:31:11 pm
I love Bob Dylan's "Blood on the Tracks," especially the tune "Idiot Wind."
Harry
2/25/2014 11:18:55 pm
I think that the plausibility of pre-Columbian contact increases exponentially when the claim is made on behalf of a culture with a known history of trans-oceanic voyaging in the direction of the Western Hemisphere. Therefore, I would not be surprised if the Vikings did reach the eastern coast of the United States. Likewise, I would not be surprised if the Polynesians reached California.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/26/2014 01:51:41 am
The precise ethnic identity/affinity of "Kennewick Man" remains unclear … But physical anthropologists who are NOT Scott Wolter had already noted "Polynesian" as one possibility …
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Only Me
2/26/2014 08:21:14 am
If KM was from the group that eventually became the Polynesians, that would help explain the similarity. So far, all we've been shown is a skull comparison. What about the rest of the skeleton? Perhaps NAGPRA was invoked too aggressively before a more conclusive examination could be done.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/26/2014 08:51:34 am
"Only Me" --
Gunn
2/27/2014 04:21:11 am
...and then there's always this to consider. Wow! Look at the many new angles of approach.
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Gunn
2/27/2014 04:33:17 am
http://bhoffman.edublogs.org/2006/08/18/browns-valley-facial-reconstruction/
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Stoneguy
2/27/2014 05:37:45 am
I found it odd that a spearhead found in the open , had no patina? the photo's showed a brilliant shiny piece of goldsheen /green obsidian supposedly lying in the open on a volcano for several hundred years( he purposed no date) which looked like it was freshly knapped? not possible
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/27/2014 12:18:57 pm
As Scott Wolter so well documented in his THOROUGH study of the Kensington Rune Stone, a freshly exposed rock/mineral surface DOES weather over time … The rate varies from one rock/mineral to another and does depend upon local conditions ...
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Matt Mc
2/27/2014 02:28:21 pm
And that does not apply to the alleged Spearhead, one that we only assumes exists. Wolter himself did not see the stone, only the same photo we saw, he did see a tattoo. I think it would be fair to say that until the Park service says something about the stone it is safe to say that it is a non point. We have evidence the shows it could be a less than it claims, the time line of volcanic activity says it at most is a few hundred years old.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/27/2014 03:06:11 pm
Okay … We AGREE that NOBODY in this blog can say anything for sure about the (purported) obsidian artifact … not least because nobody here has SEEN it ...
Matt Mc
2/28/2014 03:03:36 am
I guess we could also agree that that would include a certain host from a certain TV show, since he and the producers never saw the said spearhead.
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/27/2014 03:15:20 pm
He may have documented it, but physical weathering isn't exactly news. That's the point with this obsidian spearhead. None of the images we have with it show any signs of physical or chemical weathering, and its presence in a volcano through an eruption without damage is a strong argument against its authenticity.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/27/2014 04:04:43 pm
What was the date of that "eruption" and when did it take place … ???
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/28/2014 12:44:16 am
You know what I love, Phil? When someone who has done "graduate work" lectures me about a field in which I have an actual graduate degree. It's almost as great as being told by a twenty-year NCO with seven hours of art appreciation credits under his belt that he knows what it's like to work on an engineering degree and still make drill every month.
Matt Mc
2/27/2014 03:30:09 pm
I guess we also could agree that AU is a show made for entertainment purposes and its reason for existence is to attract advertising. It is nothing like shows like NOVA.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/27/2014 03:33:46 pm
LOL …
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Only Me
2/27/2014 07:00:56 pm
Now, now, Phil, I'll have to disagree with you on that. Tara Jordan, An Over-Educated Grunt and Matt Mc, for example, have all listed their respective expertise when critiquing the episodes. I've never mentioned it, since it didn't seem important, but as a munitions expert of 20 years experience, I laughed during the two episodes where Scott went into an area with unexploded ordinance. Just from the footage we were allowed to see, I could tell immediately he was never in any danger.
Matt Mc
2/27/2014 03:39:03 pm
One could say the same thing about HOSTS of documentary style cable TV shows,
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/27/2014 03:57:32 pm
BINGO … !!!
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Matt Mc
2/27/2014 04:15:05 pm
SO we are in agreement that AU most likely has FAKED and play LOOSE with the facts for the sake of selling advertising.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/27/2014 06:18:05 pm
We DO agree that the "America Unearthed" TV shows ARE TV shows … That appears to be the extent of our agreement ...
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Matt Mc
2/27/2014 11:28:31 pm
But you are so close. Rev
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/28/2014 01:21:51 am
Since one of the people involved has made "court of law" his standard for evidence, the legal principle is "falsus in unam" - if one area, say, the claims that an island is UXO-laden, when the camera crew isn't in a lick of danger, is provably false, all of the testimony from that source is weakened. So far, we've had a number of known frauds, in at least one case quite clumsy, an infinite number of claims that range from impossible to nonsensical, and an even greater number of specific scenes called out by people as falsified in at least one aspect. We've also had a series of incidents when claims with absolutely no proof found for them within only the context of the series used as evidence for claims thrown out the very next episode. My Latin is pretty rusty, but that sounds less like "unam" and more of a plural.
Matt Mc
2/28/2014 01:56:15 am
You bring up a interesting continuity issue with the show itself. Thinking from a editing and production point of view it is important in a program to keep certain themes consistent throughout a program or season. Doing this helps establish creditability.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/28/2014 01:53:55 am
"Over Educated Grunt" --
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Matt Mc
2/28/2014 02:00:48 am
America Unearthed IS a commercial venture made ONLY to act as draw to SELL commercials.
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An Over-Educated Grunt
2/28/2014 02:09:55 am
If the eruption recorded is from stratigraphic records and not from a seismograph, which is the case for all eruptions prior to about 1900, it was a fairly sizeable one, because it had to leave a significant enough depositional record to be worth noting in an island that is literally made of volcanic deposits.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/28/2014 02:50:54 am
"Over Educated Grunt" --
Matt Mc
2/28/2014 02:55:59 am
It does seem however you do HAVE an armchair (UNLIKE Grunt)
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/28/2014 03:07:42 am
Ah, and now who's playing snark and personal attack?
Americanegro
8/26/2016 11:17:39 pm
Sorry, Reverend Phil but you are as big a fag as Scott Wolter. You suck major ass.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/28/2014 03:02:38 am
"Matt Mc" --
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Matt Mc
2/28/2014 03:15:30 am
I too have done SOME earth work science. Once as a child I tried to prove I could dig a hole to China, needless to say my theory proved incorrect but I did propose a theory, test it, and then record the results for future use (why I never tried to dig to China again). As for in the lab sadly I have not, but I do have a nicer camera than Wolter does and I do have Macro lenses that is way more sensitive then the one Wolter uses and I have looked close up at rocks with it so in AU world I have done in the field lab analysis (in all fairness I had no idea what I was looking at) so I guess I have done Lab work in the field.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/28/2014 03:30:13 am
"Matt Mc" --
Matt Mc
2/28/2014 04:37:42 am
And you should never stop.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/28/2014 03:17:38 am
"Over Educated Grunt"
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Matt Mc
2/28/2014 03:26:14 am
"I don't have enough actual INFORMATION about the claims made for ME to give a definitive evaluation "
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/28/2014 03:35:10 am
"Matt Mc" --
Matt Mc
2/28/2014 04:02:00 am
I feel quite content actually.
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/28/2014 03:30:15 am
What a coincidence, that means that no one has direct personal knowledge about the volcano's eruption history, unless you care to find yourself a six-hundred-year-old Hawaiian. As for the rest, we do have what we're told, that it was found inside the caldera, on the surface, a location that is vanishingly unlikely for a variety of reasons, and we have multiple people who have said they've seen the same type of thing in Mexican tourist traps.
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Matt Mc
2/28/2014 03:36:37 am
Grunt.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/28/2014 03:39:21 am
"Over Educated Grunt" --
Americanegro
8/26/2016 11:23:03 pm
We call Reverend Phil's writing style "Being an enormous fag and probably a child abuser."
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/28/2014 03:37:50 am
I am comfortable giving my evaluation because I realize I will never have all of the information, and therefore collect enough to form an opinion, rather than relying on wishful thinking and "it COULD be." This is called "professional judgment." My professional judgment, based on my experience and training, is that the two supposed finders are unreliable witnesses, it looks like a souvenir trinket, and the evidence in favor of its legitimacy is so sparse and flies so strongly in the face of known geology, archaeology, and simple common sense, that said evidence is negligible at best.
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Gunn
2/28/2014 04:50:38 am
I think I see what's happening. Rev. Phil is saying that a definitive answer isn't available or known about the spear-point. He's suggesting that there is a small opening left for innocent speculation.
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An Over-Educated Grunt
2/28/2014 05:18:57 am
Gunn, do you plan your winter clothing based on the possibility that you'll open your front door and there's Cancun outside? That's what you're arguing in favor of, since you can't say definitively you won't open your door and find a Mexican beach instead of the blizzard you can see out your windows, because you can't definitively see behind the door.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/28/2014 05:43:28 am
For SURE … A person who has experienced, lived in, lived through, numerous winters in Minnesota is best qualified to make statements about winter in Minnesota …
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Matt Mc
2/28/2014 05:54:47 am
Unless of course the winter in question in MN is being presented on TV. It could easily happen that when the door is opened one in fact would see a beach in Cancun while the interior of the house is in MN. But in reality they are both on a soundstage in Chicago.
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Gunn
2/28/2014 06:45:12 am
Matt Mc, you're missing the possibility that someone like me, an aging prankster at heart, could sneak up to Rev. Phil's front door and hang a Cancun tapestry up for him to see when he opens the door. Huh? Well, it is possible, though unlikely.
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/28/2014 06:12:00 am
And AGAIN... PATIENTLY... NOT FOR THE FIRST TIME...
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/28/2014 06:28:44 am
"Over Educated Grunt" --
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/28/2014 06:41:57 am
And you won't be persuaded by anything short of a time machine, so what's the point? I do appreciate your willingness to sit down, take the time out of your busy day, and confirm my opinion of you, though.
Gunn
2/28/2014 06:57:36 am
Grump, it is obvious that you suffer from too much self-appreciation of being over-educated, which is causing you to become too lofty and intolerant of your fellow man. In other words, you come across as being too wise in yer own eyes, and about as stiff as a running board. No need to be mean and nasty to Phil, just because Only Me is. What's the obligation, anyway?
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/28/2014 07:03:16 am
Tell you what, Gunn. You don't try to figure out who leads me to my opinions, and I won't tell you my opinion of your stonehole hypothesis.
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/28/2014 07:20:10 am
Actually, scratch that. The stonehole business actually serves as a good example of my position on things.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/28/2014 08:32:49 am
"Over Educated Grump" --
Grunt, thanks for the opportunity.
Gunn
3/1/2014 09:26:17 am
Obvious bias:
Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/1/2014 10:05:35 am
I have always found that bit about "blasting holes" … ummm … puzzling …
Gunn
3/2/2014 03:59:00 am
Thanks, Rev. Phil. I needed that! The bottom line is that all these mysterious stoneholes have to be accounted for. That's where the inquiry must begin. Once the ludicrous notion of carving them for blasting and then forgetting to blast them is done away with, the former primary discouragement is eliminated...which is a good thing when seeking Truth. If not for blasting, then what for? Exactly....
Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/2/2014 05:58:48 am
Gunn --
Gunn Sinclair
3/2/2014 11:49:38 am
And yet I can assure you that right now the MAIN reason skeptics are giving for the stoneholes, is immigrant Scandinavians forgetting to blast them. I mean, the official view. I think even Jason alluded to this conclusion in a discussion of stoneholes even before I first came here about a year ago.
Rev.Phil Gotsch
3/2/2014 02:25:34 pm
Ummm … ??? Oh, please … They "'forgot' to blast them" … ???
RLewis
3/3/2014 05:55:21 am
Gunn,
Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/3/2014 07:36:42 am
"RLewis" -- 3/3/2014 11:55:53 am
RLewis, you have given me opportunity to complete the circle nicely here. Thank you. Indeed, Jason did discuss this issue before I showed up here, as I have seen. However, and unfortunately, Jason was incorrect in both of his conclusions, which I have just gone into detail about.
RLewis
3/4/2014 01:02:01 am
Everyone can read the article for themselves. IMO all of your objections are addressed - you have presented no new research or evidence, just more conjecture.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/4/2014 04:53:18 am
RLewis --
Matt Mc
3/4/2014 05:04:38 am
To quote you Rev
Gunn
3/4/2014 07:06:37 am
The bottom line is that some people just don't want to recognize any advancements being made. RLewis, you just admitted that you are blind, and Matt Mc, you basically said logical conclusions aren't important...that everything is conjecture, so hum-de-da.
Matt Mc
3/4/2014 07:17:16 am
No Gunn, I am saying that despite the logic you see in your conclusion I see no logic what-so-ever.
Gunn
3/4/2014 07:28:33 am
If you can't see an easy to see water-way, how can anyone expect you to see logic when its staring you right in the face? Answer the question about the water-way, or clam-up. Admit there's a water-way...just one. I'm not even asking you to see two, or three...only one.
Matt Mc
3/4/2014 07:44:32 am
Gunn, the only thing I will say is that I do believe the chance of your stoneholes being what you claim them to be is far greater than the spearhead from this episode has of being what it is claimed to be in the episode.
Dan
2/28/2014 03:08:51 pm
I think we call all agree that AU certainly stages the phone calls and text messages that Wolter "receives" at particularly opportune times in virtually every single episode.
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jerry
3/3/2014 01:46:50 pm
The show does a lot to ham up the production for the sake of looking good. That might detract from the content to some, but this is early 21st century american cable production style. If they gave a dry talk without setup phone calls, texts, and gratuitous zip line rides, no one would watch it.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/3/2014 03:57:16 pm
KNOWING someone personally over time … is not a small thing … It DOES get to credibility, doesn't it … ???
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Matt Mc
3/4/2014 03:04:03 am
Only for the person that knows said person, For everyone else it just appears as someone defending their friend (which is what friends do) but does not add to credibility at all rather it shows bias.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/4/2014 04:37:55 am
Matt Mc --
Matt Mc
3/4/2014 04:55:46 am
Example from my life, I have worked with Bill o'Reilly quite a bit and think he find him quite likable and consider him a good person who has a great work ethic, I have defended him here several times. My feelings toward him however does not mean that he as a public figure is not a jerk who grossly distorts things. I do not expect people who dislike him to change their feelings about him because I know him.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/4/2014 05:19:31 am
Matt Mc --
Matt Mc
3/4/2014 05:25:41 am
It all depends on how you look at thing Rev, one must keep an open mind.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/4/2014 05:56:44 am
Matt Mc --
Matt Mc
3/4/2014 06:05:22 am
Ah well I will leave that up to you to figure out. Others have said it in the past and will say it in the future. Sometime through searching one might be able to see not how one means to be but how others perceive them.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/4/2014 07:07:34 am
Matt Mc --
Sir Gunn
3/4/2014 07:24:33 am
Matt Mc, I have just shown--proven, above, that you don't have an open mind, so how can you accuse Rev. Phil of same? You make it sound like open-mindedness is so important to you, yet you have just been shown to be close-minded. This is as interestingly hypocritical and it is alarming.
Matt Mc
3/4/2014 07:25:04 am
Good way to prove my point.
Gunn
3/4/2014 07:36:24 am
Matt McNutt, are you invoking the good name of Sir Steve?
Matt Mc
3/4/2014 07:40:32 am
Gunn - my mind is very open, I might not agree with your theories but it is indeed open.
Matt Mc, right now your inescapable problem is that you don't seem willing to just up and admit that there is an inland water-way, from the ocean to within a few miles of Runestone Hill. You acknowledged the stoneholes are more likely than the Hawaii spear-point, but that is saying nothing.
Gunn
3/4/2014 02:47:30 pm
Matt McNutt: "I than saw that you said you wish to change and would not behave the same way."
RLewis
3/4/2014 12:57:17 am
So, can they provide the names (or contact information for the local offices) of the Park Services employee and Federal Agent who took the spearhead?
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Only Me
3/4/2014 03:25:23 pm
As an observation, the land where the spearhead was found is not only a national park (making it illegal to remove the spearhead), but the land is also sacred to native Hawaiians. That makes the spearhead's removal doubly troublesome.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/4/2014 03:51:59 pm
Yup … 3/5/2014 05:15:13 am
In fairness to Matt Mc, I should mention that he is only espousing the same viewpoints previously rendered by Jason here about a year ago, apparently. I don't know that Jason has changed his views on these two subjects, either.
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Dan
3/5/2014 06:08:18 am
The reason that no one is responding to your claim to have a "map" of a water route to the ocean is that its not only completely absurd but also kind of sad. Your "map" http://www.hallmarkemporium.com/discoveries/id33.html is basically you drawing lines in magic marker on a map of the KRS area. There are not navigable waterways, as your Chippewa River photos show. These are barely streams, certainly not navigable by an ocean-worthy vessel. To suggest that a medieval vessel navigated the 100-or-so miles from Duluth to Alexandria by means of a series of "connect-the-dot" rivers and streams is not only completely improbable but really kind of crazy to suggest.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
3/5/2014 09:25:57 am
Dan --
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Gunn
3/6/2014 04:02:33 am
Admittedly, Rev. Phil, this is a well-laid trap, for after the water-way feasibilities are acknowledged, it would be on to the stoneholes...which are as very real as these pesky water-ways! 3/6/2014 03:18:34 am
Dan, your remarks are complete nonsense. You are one of those who absolutely refuse to see a water-way to within a few miles of Runestone Hill, yes, from the Atlantic Ocean.
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Gunn
3/6/2014 03:42:51 am
Lake Superior to Bois Brule River, to St. Croix River, to Mississippi River, to Minnesota River, to Chippewa River (MN), to Runestone Hill. Simple and undeniable.
Gunn
3/6/2014 04:33:03 am
Rev. Phil, "...look what they're dropping down now...a night crawler...a WHITE one!" (See the catfish's response.)
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Aaron
4/5/2014 04:51:27 am
My problem with this show is that they base everything on WHO discovered America and I really hate to tell you this, But America was always here and didn't magically appear and there were people already here and those that came here STOLE this land from the indigenous population and killed them off in order to claim it as theirs. Why do the Americans still celebrate Columbus day when in fact it is a lie? HISTORY IS A LIE and most all of America Believes it.
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