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Review of Ancient Aliens S14E07 "The Druid Connection"

7/19/2019

102 Comments

 
Picture
Picture
​The question of whether people from the British Isles reached America is almost as old as the European colonization of the Americas after Columbus. John Dee, for example, helped promote the idea that the Welsh prince Madoc colonized America, all part of his scheme to justify British colonization by alleging that it predated Columbus and the Spaniards. In the late 1700s and early 1800s, claims of Irish or Celtic explorations of the Americas became popular as precedent for the then-current mass migration of Irish people to the Americas. In the nineteenth century, Eugène Beauvois brought the theme to its racist climax when he argued in a series of papers—on the flimsiest of evidence—that the Irish had not only colonized the Americas before Columbus but also converted the Natives from Mexico to Hudson’s Bay to Catholicism and civilized the lot of them, until the Natives’ savage natures undid their hard work. When challenged that the “true” discoverers of America might be Norse rather than Irish, he nonchalantly replied that it didn’t matter because the answer “will always be European.” Adding aliens to the mix doesn’t really change the underlying racist origins of the ideas under discussion in this episode.
​Segment 1
The episode opens here in the Hudson Valley with Communion author Whitley Streiber recounting his abduction by creatures that he never quite identifies as Grey aliens. In the book, the aliens sexually assaulted him (his was the most famous anal probe ever), but here on the show, his abduction has been sanitized for family viewing. The show goes on to describe other 1980s UFO sightings along the Hudson River. Hundreds saw the UFOs, but as Unsolved Mysteries and Discover magazine both reported, the sightings were actually of groups of amateur pilots flying in formation. Ancient Aliens ignores this and claims that the entire area from the Hudson Valley to Maine—covering parts of seven states!—is a vortex. Nonsensically, this leads the show to ask if there is a connection to Druid colonization of New England. No, it doesn’t make sense.
 
The show then takes us to America’s Stonehenge in Salem, New Hampshire, a set of colonial-era cold cellars that were mistaken for Celtic temples by fringe history believers. The show takes at face value Barry Fell’s laughable claim that scratch marks at the site are Celtic Ogham writing.
 
We go to commercial without making any sort of point except for the racist one that we should be giddy at the thought of Europeans in the pre-Columbian Americas.
​Segment 2
Hugh Newman explains that many people think that the stone chambers in New England are colonial root cellars, but he and Whitley Strieber deny that they could have functioned as such. Strieber alleges that the chambers are three thousand years old and have some story of “feeling” that proves they are not meant for storing vegetables, cider, or other goods. William Henry says they are “virtually identical” to Druid structures, though the show conflates the Druids with the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the British Isles. None of the men has any idea how colonial people stored goods, so their feelings about the chambers carry rather little weight.
 
The show next decides to tell us about the Druids, whose knowledge they attribute to the Tuatha De Danaan. I discussed this years ago in detail, but suffice it to say that the Tuatha De Danaan are euhemerized pagan gods. The show mixes and matches details from the extant sources and then misrepresents them as arriving in flying ships. This conflates two versions of the story, one that involved them arriving by air in a cloud and the other by sea in a ship. I wrote about this in my previous account.
 
Following this, the show discusses a nineteenth century report of two seven-foot tall skeletons found in Connecticut, which the show relates to (fabricated) Native traditions of red-headed giants. (The claim is a wild exaggeration of a line from Sarah Winnemucca Hopkins, who had an old lock of hair that had turned red as it faded with age. She said that the hair belonged to an ancient giant.) Andrew Collins claims that because Celtic people have red hair, red-headed giants are therefore Irish supermen. 
​Segment 3
The third segment takes us to North Salem, NY, where David Childress and Hugh Newman go to visit the “balanced rock,” a set of rocks deposited by a glacier that the men and Andrew Collins believe was created by Druids in the manner of a European dolmen. Childress and Newman simply can’t accept that a glacier could set down a rock, so they falsely claim it is “identical” to a British dolmen. Most dolmens are much taller, for one thing. The rock in New York is elevated only by a foot or two atop the smaller rocks it settled on. Childress and Newman discuss the piezoelectric effect, which Newman says the rock demonstrates, indicating an energy vortex. Childress plays the fool and pretends not to know anything about this, even though in earlier episodes he led the discussion of the piezoelectric effect in Egyptian obelisks. Whitley Strieber calls the balanced rock one of “the great structures of the past.” But it’s just a rock on the side of the road next to somebody’s garage. Childress rapturously declares that the Tuatha De Danaan and the Irish “chose this spot” because it is a “vortex.” Somehow the discussion manages to sidestep the fact that there were Native people living in the area for thousands of years before the Irish showed up to whiten the landscape with their Caucasian majesty and call down the divine from the heavens in ways that the benighted Native people could not.
​Segment 4
In Putnam County, NY, Childress and Newman arrive at another colonial cold cellar that they suggest is both British in origin and a focus for UFO activity. The narrator suggests that the “same” builders constructed both this chamber and Stonehenge, and I am not certain at all that they understand that the Druids did not build Stonehenge.
 
In Hartford, Conn., we look at Gungywamp, an archaeological site composed of Native American and/or colonial-era stone structures, many being root cellars. As archaeologist Ken Feder explained, the site’s stone circles are the remains of a mill used in leather-making. The show declares this al a Celtic site designed to channel vortex energy, even though its recumbent stones bear no resemblance to the standing stones of European megalithic circles. 
​Segment 5
The fifth segment describes Celtic (here called Druid) human sacrifice, which it attempts to relate to America’s Stonehenge. At America’s Stonehenge, a colonial apple press used for making cider is displayed as a “sacrificial table,” but I have lain on that table as though a human sacrifice (I was a teen—it seemed fun) and can tell you that it would be rather ineffective as a table of sacrifice. There is no easy way to strap down a person on it, for example, and Collins exaggerates when he calls it “huge.” It barely held me when I was a young teen, and I am hardly a tall man. The narrator tells us that this proves that the Druids left an “indelible mark” on America, presumably much more than Native peoples, who might have been expected to have something to say about meeting all these alien-worshipping, super-powered Irish giants. Even Strieber seems content to associate supernatural, spectral, and divine aspects of North America with Europe and with white men. It’s all very strange considering that the Druids first appear in the historical record in the fourth century BCE, though presumably deriving from earlier Celtic and proto-Celtic priests and shamans. The Celts, an Indo-European people, only emerge in the historical record around the eighth century BCE, and therefore have no connection to the British and Irish megalithic cultures of thousands of years prior that the show conflates with them.
Segment 6
The final segment tells us that Strieber believes that colonial root cellars can help him communicate with other levels of reality and can empower us to manifest space aliens—sorry, “entities,” since he doesn’t use the ET term—in our reality. This is bullshit. If you can manifest a space alien by sitting in a glorified pantry, go ahead and bring one here. Strieber also claims that when he goes into rooms he forgets why he is there and “loses” time. The show compares this to the story of Rip Van Winkle, which the show strangely enough recognizes has European origins. They are wrong that the story of Rip’s “lost time” is a Celtic “fairy” story, however. It’s a derivative of the ancient “sleeping king” myth, which is found in stories as diverse as King Arthur, Charlemagne, and Odin. It has nothing to do with aliens abducting people and everything to do with the longing for the return of great men from the past to signal the return of virtue. I wouldn’t expect this lot of corrupt intellectual prostitutes to know anything about that.
102 Comments
TONY S.
7/19/2019 10:50:55 pm

"corrupt intellectual prostitutes" : one of your best phrases ever. Although I would argue that " ANTI-intellectual" might be a better fit.

Is it me, or do Childress, Strieber, and Collins seem to be getting nuttier with each passing year?

They're clearly desperate to come up with newer material, so their "theories" are getting more and more outlandish as a result. We know they don't know their asses from a hole in the ground when it comes to actual history, ancient myths or science.

You once said in an interview that you found it hard to believe that most AAT's really believed in any of the theories they discussed, either on the show or in interviews,or in their books. The fact that they will put out such ludicrous drivel of the type in tonight's episode without apparently caring how silly it will make them look, and go to such lengths to poison the well of knowledge just so they can keep making money, reinforces your notion of them as prostitutes.

Reply
Donna
7/21/2019 09:07:56 am

Latest breakthrough of mainstream “science”. Stonehenge was built using pig fat. Do they believe it themselves:)?

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/ancient-people-may-have-used-pig-fat-build-stonehenge

Reply
TONY S.
7/21/2019 03:24:09 pm

And the purpose of this is? What's your point?

I've got to be honest, you putting the word "science" in quotes already shows me where your head is at.

Please elaborate, I'm all ears.

Paul
7/21/2019 11:40:39 pm

Stonehenge was not built using pig fat, it would have melted and turned rancid long ago. The pig fat was merely used as a lubricant, possibly. Go back to pseudohistory.

Asdf
7/22/2019 05:22:43 am

Khufu must have built his pyramid using camel fat.

Lemmiinks
7/19/2019 11:07:23 pm

The druids did not build Stonehenge?
“In ancient times...hundreds of years before the dawn of history
Lived a strange race of people......druids
No one knows who they were or what they were doing
But their legacy remains
Hewn in to the living rock...of Stonehenge”

Reply
TONY S.
7/19/2019 11:40:07 pm

The current consensus amongst scholars is that Stonehenge predates the Druids.

Reply
BigFred
7/20/2019 06:09:52 pm

Okay, I'll be the one to point out that Lemmiinks' quote is from a song by Spinal Tap. Google it.

TONY S.
7/20/2019 06:22:10 pm

Lol yeah, I was coming of age when it came out. just thought it was his silly way of saying that he was under the impression Druids did build Stonehenge.

charles verrastro link
7/21/2019 12:26:32 pm

Hate to even appear to support the New England Colonial-Age structures as Druid Beehive cells; which the British originals were actually Dark Age Saint's hermitage retreats although doubtless using older native architectural methods.
However, having done pretty in depth research on Druidism I am constantly irked to hear the scientific "consensus" that the Druids did not build any of the Megalithic structures, especially the late stage Stonehenge or Avebury sites. Much of this was built upon early 19th century professional archaeology reacting to the wild speculations of the Romantic Antiquarians. That they used them as ritual sites at least p to Dark Age times is proven by a variety of ancient texts.
However, they never could, nor do now, know how ancient the Druid cult is. The earliest records speak of them as being as old as the Chaldeans, Brahmins, etc. The Celts themselves when speaking of their most ancient beliefs nearly always refer to them as being "the teachings of the Druids", as though it was an older faith than the Iron Age Celtic cultures. There are odd passages in Classical and later Irish manuscripts where the Druids themselves speak of coming from across the waters of the West to Eastern Europe in contradiction of the usual medieval fictions of arriving from Greece or Scythian lands. Their is even the unique citation of the Druidic assertion that they themselves created the world through bardic song, which is a very old cosmogonic meme we find in very ancient beliefs such as among the Finno-Ugric peoples, Vedas, etc.
All I wish to say is when you don't have a shred of archaeological data to give a date for the earliest appearance of the Druid priestly culture, except that it displays all the signs of a sophisticated shamanic belief system, don't categorically state 'it was before the Druids". The actual current consensus is to use terms like 'Proto-Druidic' to hedge their bets should some discovery prove a vastly earlier date for the sect.

Zal
7/20/2019 12:10:08 am

The current consensus among kooky pseudoscientists is that the word “Druid” sounds cool and mysterious and it must be connected to anything ancient and British, especially Stonehenge.

Reply
Zane
7/21/2019 06:13:43 pm

I'm a reformed Druid. I only worship shrubbery....thank you M*A*S*H

E.P. Grondine
7/20/2019 08:53:04 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAXzzHM8zLw

Reply
E.P. Grondine
7/20/2019 08:57:42 am

If the sites mentioned were properly excavated, then we would know what they were.

The red hair nonsense is due to the western desert skeletons and the Paiute traditions. Whoever or whatever they were, the Andaste did not have red hair.

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Tudlaw
7/20/2019 05:28:56 pm

How and why would you excavate a "site" consisting of a large rock completely above ground? I will say the "site" has already been excavated: the surrounding smaller rocks were removed to make the land usable and the stones put to use. The big one was left because it's stupid heavy (north of 150 tons) and looks cool.

http://hudsonvalleygeologist.blogspot.com/2013/07/north-salem-balanced-rock.html

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Ken Feder
7/20/2019 06:46:40 pm

Not Balanced Rock, but here’s a terrific site excavation report for the Acton Stone Chamber in Massachusetts. It’s a 19th-century farm outbuilding. https://www.plymoutharch.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/actonstonechamber.pdf

Kent
7/20/2019 08:46:44 pm

This is a "we need to dig to restore this thing" project, not a "we need to dig to find out what this thing is" project. It's equivalent to digging a trench around a house to fix faulty waterproofing.

They knew what the thing was. Same as the sites mentioned in the article, we know what they are.

Ken Feder
7/20/2019 09:56:40 pm

Just to clarify: the pdf for which I provided a link is a detailed site report of a professional archaeological investigation of the Acton stone chamber conducted as part of a restoration project. An archaeological excavation is pretty common in historical restoration projects, especially when the resource is being considered for a National Register nomination (which was the case here). Though there wasn’t any great controversy about the age or function of the chamber among historians, the project was a fantastic exercise in using the archaeological record to support or refute varied hypotheses about those issues.

Kent
7/20/2019 11:16:14 pm

Which hypotheses did they support or refute?

E.P. Grondine
7/21/2019 09:35:22 am

When a site is properly excavated, debris and refuse from construction and use is found. Those materials pretty much put bring speculation to an abrupt end.

I need to mention here that when I read Barry Fells' "America BC" I thought that there may have been early European visitors, coming not for gold, but for for large timbers in response to European deforestation. The European maritime peoples used large dugouts, and there were no more large trees there.

I myself go to powwows, and recently I discussed at one what I knew about the local peoples with a descendant from this area. That is my audience: a small one, and that is okay. These guys have their audience, and I have mine. I serve my audience as well as I can, and most are generally satisfied.

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Homer Sextown
7/21/2019 06:12:25 pm

As one of our former posters would have said "Chief go heapum powwows". And you bring them your wisdom.

So now your version is trans-Atlantic voyages to bring back ... lumber. You are piling stupidity onto stupidity. What were the boats made out of?

This is stupidity on par with Wolter's Great Lakes Copper Heist. It's like you're _trying_ to sound silly.

TONY S.
7/21/2019 06:44:27 pm

Are you that former poster? I believe that's an Americanegro classic.

I miss those from the old crowd who don't post anymore.

DEB
7/22/2019 08:10:29 pm

There are those European mummies in a Chinese desert with red hair. Shoot, Rameses II had red hair.

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Accumulated Wisdom
7/23/2019 01:05:34 am

Those "European mummies" have Asian DNA. Churchen Man and Woman. They have pretty killer facial tattoos.

FIFY
7/23/2019 05:22:52 pm

Cherchen Man or Chärchän Man or Ur-David. Not "Churchen".

Accumulated Wisdom
7/23/2019 06:40:54 pm

Fify,

Autocorrect changed it and I didn't catch it. Kept changing "Fify" to "Gift".

Kent
7/24/2019 05:20:21 am

You can be reliably counted on to:

1. make up stories
2. not remember any of the 2 to 5 books a day every day for the last 42 years you claim to have read
3. blame your mistakes on Autocorrect
4. sober up and claim someone is posting as you

Charles Rector link
7/28/2019 12:11:27 am

How do you know that they did not have red hair?

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Paul
7/20/2019 10:09:10 am

There was the time when one talked like these folks in these productions, that one would be burned at the stake as a witch or at least provided with a padded cell. Nowadays, more episodes are added. How can society advance if the young are getting sucked into the vortex of stupidity?

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Ann Matthews
7/20/2019 10:28:19 am

I lived in Kent, NY, Putnam County in the 1980s. The residents, police, sheriff depts., along with State Troopers, Mayors and Town Selectmen all saw UFOs spanning several years. Ny City policemen and firemen had homes in Putnam County and saw and reported UFO sightings. Ancient Aliens is a show and will stretch a story line, but do not dismiss what happened. I don't care if the druids, vikings or aztecs were involved. You should be focussed on the unexplained events, not the interrpretaton of a TV show.

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An Anonymous Nerd
7/20/2019 08:09:24 pm

The interpretation of the show is pretty much what this article is about, as it is a review of the show. Alien-related and other Fringe interpretation of history, archaeology, and the like, is pretty much what this site is about, and what most of Mr. Colavito's writings are about.

All told, in context "should" is an odd word to use.

Seeing UFOs is easy. Anything you see that's flying that you don't know what it is is a UFO, as the "u" stands for "unidentified." Interpreting aerial phenomena can be a lot more involved than looking up and not being able to identify something.

Also, "Selectmen" in a New York town? They mostly are a feature of politics in the New England states -- part of the "Town Meeting" system prevalent in that region. The references I could find on Google all show Selectmen in Kent, CT, not Kent, NY. So I'm not sure what that reference is all about.

Finally.....Ancient Aliens purports to be non-fiction. Such concepts as storylines stretching them out really shouldn't be an issue.

-An Anonymous Nerd

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Jockobadger
7/22/2019 12:47:36 pm

Just a quick follow-up to Ann's comment. I don't watch AA or actually any of other shows covered here. I visit the site to read/skim Jason's work and then read the comments. This site has very interesting and oftentimes hilarious comments section. Love it. I too miss Hugh, AN, etc. Where did they go?

Anyway, now my follow up. Jason states that the ufo's sighted in the Hudson Valley were guys flying experimental/light aircraft in formation, usually attempting to do a V or delta shape. They may have been responsible for a few of the reports, but FAR from all of them. There does appear to have been some sort of "flap" in the Hudson Valley. It may have been military or perhaps some sort of stovepiped MIC contractor, or it may have been visitors of some sort. May have been all of the above. In any case, it is not explained away by the airman's club - it had a name and I'm not going to waste more time looking for it.

Thanks!

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Louis Epstein link
8/4/2019 10:38:43 pm

The chamber on the show was one on land in Kent my family has owned since about 1940.We've always considered it a root cellar and my father told me an old-timer long ago had told him of its construction.

Ancient Aliens has a premise that it can't admit is discredited or it will kill the show...its vested interest in ancient-alien theories being seen as credible makes it far from science.

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Ken Feder
7/20/2019 02:22:38 pm

Wait; did they say they went to Gungywamp in Hartford? Gungywamp is located in Groton, in southeastern Connecticut, about an hour away. It was a farm. The double stone circle was almost certainly an abandoned bark mill. There are nineteenth- and early twentieth-century photographs of similar and operational examples. Nothing Druidical or spooky about it.

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Deb Maddrell
7/20/2019 03:21:19 pm

As far-fetched as some of these “connections” seem to be, it’s inaccurate to characterize the theories of prehistoric “discovery” of North America as racist.
We don’t know what we don’t know, and recent research into the movements of far-ancient peoples has overturned - or at the very least expanded - previously-held theories.
Which isn’t to say most of what “ancient alien theorists” assert is more than opinion.

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Kent
7/20/2019 06:44:36 pm

There is at least a racist subtext: the Indians didn't do X,Y, or Z because imaginary people from abroad did it. It's the New Age Barry Fell fueled version of "You didn't build this."

I say "Indians" rather than "Native American" because I am a native American and absurdly the first "Native Americans" were not.
"Herefirsters" would be a more accurate term.

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DEB
7/20/2019 07:26:00 pm

Well, maybe. But I honestly think it's more that these constructions are so (apparently) different from those of the people first encountered by Europeans that the latter were just trying to make them fit into a known context.
Even 50 years ago, most people had little understanding of the huge differences among the lives and societies of the far-ancient inhabitants of Europe and Eurasia - never mind the pre-Columban inhabitants of the Americas.
I also think many of these archaeologists and "investigators" see what they are conditioned to see, or try to make connections based on "known" connections.
FWIW, the Irish have been saying for centuries St. Brendan crossed the Atlantic in a curragh...looking at one, you might find that hard to believe, but someone's done it. https://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/irish-monk-america1.htm
At one time, no one believed a Viking longship, or a Polynesian outrigger or double=hulled canoe could cross thousands of miles of open ocean.
So, ignorance certainly.

Kent
7/20/2019 07:53:39 pm

Uh, with all due respect, "50 years ago" is 1969 so your second paragraph is nonsense.

"I also think many of these archaeologists and "investigators" see what they are conditioned to see, or try to make connections based on "known" connections." I say the same about you. Discuss.

"At one time, no one believed a Viking longship, or a Polynesian outrigger or double=hulled canoe could cross thousands of miles of open ocean." What time was that and what sources do you have for this disbelief?

Kent
7/20/2019 09:25:00 pm

"But I honestly think it's more that these constructions are so (apparently) different from those of the people first encountered by Europeans that the latter were just trying to make them fit into a known context."

WHAT constructions? Specifics please. Holes in the ground lined with stones that were built by Europeans?

Deb
7/21/2019 01:40:35 am

I think I’d rather watch you go off the rails again as you garble out your deranged theory about Soviet spies sleeping with FDR in the Lincoln bedroom.

Joe Scales
7/21/2019 09:59:49 am

I'm sure you'd rather watch Kent do anything other than hand you your ass. But here we are. Your ass on a platter..

Kent
7/21/2019 11:06:48 am

While we have had many Presidents who liked to get their bone on, and the President is the 800 pound gorilla, the Lincoln Bedroom is for guests. It's possible that Clinton was the first to monetize it.

Deb
7/21/2019 03:07:01 pm

I’m not sure what is more pathetic, Kent’s pathetic attempts to come across as intellectual as he spouts off conspiratorial nonsense and non-sequiturs, or the fact that the buffoon Joe Scales has been reduced to to the role of Kent’s cheerleading fluffer!

Ha ha ha!

The Zealots
7/21/2019 06:15:10 pm

"Deb" is Anthony Warren.

Joe Scales
7/21/2019 08:40:31 pm

Ding-Ding-Ding

We have a winner! What is actually more pathetic is Deb pretending to be a chick. So that would be his hairy ass that was handed to him. And now again.

DEBRA MADDRELL
7/22/2019 08:42:36 pm

Fifty years ago, the excavations and explorations in Meso-America were not widely published, is what I meant.
Re the outriggers - the most famous of the trans-Pacific recreations of the ancient Polynesian voyages is probably Kon-tiki, but there have been others, I believe. (Which just goes to show modern historians should learn to take "legends" and "myths" seriously.
Re the longships, a recent attempt is addressed here
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3622523/The-Vikings-North-America-Replica-dragon-ship-reaches-Newfoundland-month-long-Atlantic-crossing.html
But, you're missing my point. In the 18th and 19th centuries, even supposedly professional scientists didn't know very much about their own antecedents, never mind the people they encountered in the Americas and parts of Asia.
As several people have noted here, many of the sites visited in this episode haven't been properly excavated or studied, so we can hope once that happens, more can be definitively understood about who built them, maybe even why.
As an example, for years, archaeologists in England dismissed the idea that there was a powerful local ruler based in a fortified location at Tintagel who might be identified with the Mark of Cornwall in the Arthurian legends. Lo, and behold, in the last few years recent excavations at the site have uncovered just such a compound. Does that make the Arthurian legends true? No.
Does the possibility that early Celts bobbed across the Atlantic in a curragh mean they were the Tuatha De Danaan? No.
I don't think any of the speculation in the show, no matter how far-fetched, were intended to belittle the 'here firsters'.

Accumulated wisdom
7/23/2019 12:22:06 am

Do you you still think that Deb is Anthony Warren you bird-brained imbecile?

Pacal
7/28/2019 06:27:01 pm

Regarding this:

"Fifty years ago, the excavations and explorations in Meso-America were not widely published, is what I meant.
Re the outriggers - the most famous of the trans-Pacific recreations of the ancient Polynesian voyages is probably Kon-tiki, but there have been others, I believe. (Which just goes to show modern historians should learn to take "legends" and "myths" seriously."

Actually 50 years ago books about excavations and explorations of Mesoamerica were widely published. I am 60 now and I read kids books about the Maya, Aztec and Inca before I was ten. This is to say nothing of the various popular exploration books that were published in the 19th century about the Maya etc. I could of course list popular books about the Aztecs, Maya etc., that were published in the 1950s etc. And in 19th century America stuff about the Mound builders was popular until it was found out tat Native Americans had built them.

Kon Tiki is not an example of Polynesian Outrigger voyages. The voyage was done with a late Peruvian Pre-Columbian sailing raft, and was designed to show that Peruvians had sailed into the Pacific and populated, at least partly, the islands. Thor Heyerdahl believed Polynesians originally came from the Pacific North West of America, and that shortly before Peruvians, who were at least partly of Caucasian descent had sailed from Peru. Thor Heyerdahl disparaged the sailing abilities of the Polynesians.

As for the last comment. Well that is typical alternative speech. In fact all too often "mainstream" Academics have taken myths and legends far too seriously. And of course it ignores all those Academics who all to often waste their time trying to find history in myth and legend.

All sorts of Archeologists have wasted their time refuting stuff and nonsense, including excavating site after site and finding zero evidence of the flights of fantasy of alternative thinkers. It is quite the bore. And of course conventional Archeologists have been rewarded with being called, liars, shills, conspirators in a vast cover up etc. It is oh so dull.

"As an example, for years, archaeologists in England dismissed the idea that there was a powerful local ruler based in a fortified location at Tintagel who might be identified with the Mark of Cornwall in the Arthurian legends. Lo, and behold, in the last few years recent excavations at the site have uncovered just such a compound. Does that make the Arthurian legends true? No.

Does the possibility that early Celts bobbed across the Atlantic in a curragh mean they were the Tuatha De Danaan? No."

Actually Academics have been proposing that Tintagel may have been the site of a Dark Age Palace of some kind since the 19th century. Nothing unusual there. Although the Dark Age figure that they think may have had a Palace there is Arthur. ( A Figure who more and more experts on the Dark Ages think is a myth or at best a composite figure.)

The evidence that the Irish crossed the Atlantic to North America is extreme minimal to zero. That they sailed to the Shetlands, Iceland etc., is clear just from reading Bede. I take it you are referring to the so-called Brenden voyages. Well I've read the original text and it is a collection of fantasy tales and if North America is in there it is hidden behind a huge glop of fantasy.

And it is very easy to show that it is all to often intended to belittle the "Here Firsters". Certainly in the 19th century it was so intended and this was true well into the 20th century. And even now it is all to often true. Just read Hancock's comments about the Maya in his Fingerprints of the Gods.

An Anonymous Nerd
7/21/2019 11:50:10 am

No, the term racist is appropriate, for two distinct but related reasons.

1--Claims about giants, aliens, Nephilim, or what have you, often are used to pretend that the American Indians could not possibly have achieved what they actually achieved, or built what they actually built.

2--Claims that someone else was here are tied in with attempts to claim the land for someone other than the American Indians. This usually is done to attempt to wipe out one of the two greatest sins of the United States -- the theft of territory from those who were there for thousands and thousands of years before Europeans knew the continent was there, let alone before the United States was founded. During the 1800s these sorts of claims explicitly were used, with much political success, for that purpose. One of Mr. Colavito's upcoming books is about this very issue.

-An Anonymous Nerd

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NOBODY CARES
7/23/2019 12:52:24 pm

The dude is definitely a man on a mission, but you're not the only one that sees it. It seems like the original goal of his blog was to offer people a central location to fact check the outrageous claims made by the show. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, his articles started to sound more and more like this one. It's like he doesn't realize he's labeling all the talking heads, authors, executives, writers, publicists, actors, and producers of AA closet racists. Of course each person must have the same (or remarkably similar) nefarious motives, but no individual speaks out about the History Channel's secret racist agenda. The show is a big scary monster that must be slain at all costs - even slander is on the table. It kind of sucks though. The facts really don't need all of the extra "help". Whatever...it's his blog. Hail Hydra.

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Scott Monahan link
7/24/2019 12:01:52 am

It's a red herring (not red hair) to claim finds of ancient Ogham in the USA is "racist". Some archaeologists don't investigate claims asserting another excuse: "cultural inappropriateness". Linguist and author Barry Fell missed the mark on some translations, yes.
But linguists David H. Kelley, Professor Emeritus of Archaeology at the University of Calgary and Dr. Robert Meyer of Catholic University of America concurred Ogham is present at the Anubis Cave neighbor, Nosepointer Cave, predicting an equinox alignment during visits in situ in the late 1980s. Video link of Fell's translation included.

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SCOTT MONAHAN link
7/24/2019 12:08:24 am

correct link to Barry Fell video, 21 seconds

SCOTT MONAHAN link
7/24/2019 12:14:08 am

3rd times the charm...

timehopfilms.com/vid2.html

vonmazur
7/20/2019 09:55:05 pm

Are back to the Italians hating the Irish? NBC theory? (No one before Columbus) I lived in NE and watched the fights with the Yankees and Red Sox fans...So it is very prevalent in that part of the world, but of course the materiel presented in the show was baldersash...

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James
7/21/2019 09:27:17 am

Just so you know the credibility of my opinions, I work at America's Stonehenge (although I am in no way reflecting the opinions of the owners in this writing, and I am only attempting to point to some pieces of evidence that were not mentioned in this latest episode of Ancient Aliens that you don't seem to know).

First, please do not lay on the sacrificial table or at other structures at America's Stonehenge. For one thing, it is an active archeological site and any damage made to the structures could hinder future research into it's true builders. Also, it is simply not safe. We do not allow visitors to enter some chambers because of damage from an earthquake in the 1980's, so ignoring our rules could result in serious injury. (In other words, readers, please do not copy the author's experiment. If you have questions about the size of the table or chambers please ask at the visitors center.)

Second, the chambers at America's Stonehenge have no record of ever being used as root cellars, and are in fact very similar to European constructions. Just because a television series did not provide all of the information about a certain site does not definitively prove it was just built by colonial farmers. As proof, I would like to list some evidence that discredits the belief that these structures in Salem, New Hampshire were root cellars for a colonial farmer. First, the area is not conducive to farming. There is very tricky terrain on a somewhat steep hill that is surrounded by vernal pools and swamps. Such a small, rocky, hilly area would be a poor choice for any farmer. Second, most stone structures are on top of bare bedrock, which was only exposed a couple thousand years ago in this region. Third, the only colonial era inhabitants of the hilltop were members of the Pattee family, most of which were shoemakers, with no real hand in agriculture. Fourth, I have seen primary source documents and third party research stating that the Pattee family not only did not construct the stone chambers, but also found them already on the hilltop when they originally settled there in 1744. No other records of that hilltop ever being owned by a colonists exist, because the area was in the outskirts (essentially the wilderness) of Haverhill (later broken into many towns including Salem). Fifth, the presence of dozens of astronomical alignment stones on the site as well as hundreds of feet of stone walls make it difficult if not impossible to believe that an 18th or 19th century shoemaker would ever have the time, energy, or skill to quarry multi ton slabs if granite. I could easily go on about the many other artifacts and discoveries made here, but I would most likely be writing a book, so feel free to come to America's Stonehenge and ask any of the kind folks who work there.

Third, I would like to discuss the Baal (or Bel) stone featured on this episode. The stone was discovered in a chamber on the site, and has very clearly marked inscriptions in an ancient rune-based language. There are also several other stones collected from the site and the surrounding area that show clear human markings on them. These are not scratches or geological anomalies, because they are clearly visible to the naked eye, and have been translated by experts in the field.

Fourth, and finally, I would like to say that all opinions and theories are welcome. I am not going after one theory to disprove it, or trying to force my own opinions on others. I am simply attempting to explain the evidence that has been collected by archaeologists at America's Stonehenge that was not necessarily mentioned in Ancient Aliens. I am not discrediting the theory that there is a connection with extra terresterials, nor am I discrediting the theory that the entire site was an elaborate hoax perpetrated by a 19th century shoemaker with a sick sense of humor. I am simply stating that there is evidence to suggest that some sort of outside culture came to this site and others in the Northeastern United States and constructed these stone structures. Whether it was aliens or Druids or Native Americans or British Colonists is still under investigation.

(Also, saying something is racist does not make it untrue. Sure, Native Americans were treated terribly by our ancestors, and coming from Cherokee heritage I understand the racial injustices done to my own ancestors, but that does not change the inpartial and unbiased evidence that researchers have found at these archeological sites.)

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James
7/21/2019 09:41:03 am

I also want to add that the sacrificial stone (or cider press as you call it) could very easily have been used for animal sacrifice instead of human sacrifice. Also the complete lack of orchards for miles around kind of removes the idea that it was used as a cider press. The use of the stone table for sacrifice is just a theory, and again, no theory should be immediately dismissed, but it is very unlikely that the stone was used as a cider press. The stone was nearly completely covered by brush until the 1930's when the site was excavated by archeologists which means the table was most likely never even seen by colonial era farmers or the family that lived on the site in the early 1800s.

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Paul
7/22/2019 08:06:19 pm

http://www.bu.edu/bridge/archive/2002/02-01/archaeology.htm

And your reply is? Doesn’t matter cause it is bullshit anyway.....

Joe Scales
7/21/2019 10:06:37 am

"First, please do not lay on the sacrificial table or at other structures at America's Stonehenge. "

And second, don't even waste your time there. Unless you like hearing people like James make up stupid stuff that didn't happen.

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James
7/21/2019 03:11:38 pm

It is not stupid. Just because you do not appreciate history does not make it stupid.

Joe Scales
7/21/2019 08:45:41 pm

Oh, I appreciate history. Just not imbeciles such as yourself James who falsify it; ignorantly or otherwise.

James
7/22/2019 05:08:25 pm

Alright let's not get carried away with childish insults. I can assure you I am not ignorant, and I do not falsify anything Joe. Whenever you are ready to stop throwing insults and actually start contributing to the conversation like an educated adult, please do so.

Joe Scales
7/22/2019 08:51:59 pm

Nothing childish about it. It is simply the truth. You James are an imbecile. Now I could waste oodles of bandwidth like other guests here rubbing your nose in it, but I'd rather just cut to the chase. You promote fake history. You have no applicable credentials. You are an imbecile.

Jim
7/21/2019 10:58:39 am

"Second, the chambers at America's Stonehenge have no record of ever being used as root cellars, and are in fact very similar to European constructions."

Dude,,,,,America was colonized by Europeans, how odd that structures would reflect that,,,not.

" First, the area is not conducive to farming. "

I don't have a farm, but yet I have a fridge,,,,,is that weird ?

"The stone was discovered in a chamber on the site, and has very clearly marked inscriptions in an ancient rune-based language."

There are literally hundreds of stones with rune-based languages on them in America, most proven fake, not one iota of evidence showing any to be authentic.

" I am simply stating that there is evidence to suggest that some sort of outside culture came to this site and others in the Northeastern United States and constructed these stone structures."

Yes, the outside culture was from Europe, post Columbus,,,duh.

Did you know that there is no evidence showing Merlin the Magician didn't do this,,, better add him to the list of possibles.

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Doc Rock
7/21/2019 01:20:28 pm

My understanding is that by the late 17th century English settlement had penetrated much further (relatively speaking) into the interior of New England than most people in the present think. However, the frontier areas of New England were depopulated during King Phillips war. This was also about the time that the French began to use their Native allies to contest English movement into the interior. As a result it was several generations before new settlers returned to the areas of earlier settlement. Not many had a lot of knowledge, if any, of settlement before. Upon finding overgrown, apparently ancient stone walls, foundations, root cellars, cider presses, etc. some reached the conclusion were the remnants of settlement from centuries before. The fact that these ruins looked a lot like similar structures back in the British Isles helped play into the narrative of ancient settlement by Europeans.

Given the do-it-yourself nature of frontier life back then one wouldn't necessarily have to be running a large farm on fertile bottom land to need things like cider presses, root cellars, etc.

No shortage of mysterious ruins throughout the US that are thought to be ancient because people are not aware of earlier waves of European/American settlement and so they default to ancient transoceanic contact.

James
7/21/2019 03:18:24 pm

What I meant by the structures reflecting European construction was that the chambers are similar to ancient European structures, not colonial period structures.

The Pattee family that lived on the site did construct their own root cellar for storing food. The several other stone chambers on the site are very different from the one constructed in the late 1700's.

Our carbon dating and other research places the construction of the site well before Columbus and other colonization of the American Continent (roughly 2000 BCE).

If you want to believe Merlin the Magician did this be my guest, but there is documented evidence that a precolumbian European civilization constructed this site. That doesn't mean there aren't other theories, it is simply the one with the most evidence.

Doc Rock
7/21/2019 03:57:14 pm

My understanding is that the owner of the site back in the 30s decided that it was ancient European and so "reconstructed" various stone structures to reflect what he thinks ancient European should have looked like. There may have even been some additional 19th century alterations to use the "chambers" for storage rather than colonial era purposes. So, there's that when it comes to any structures that may look very different from 17th or 18th century colonial structures. .


Also, archaeologists have stated that no artifacts have been found there to support the ancient European settlement theory. Only Native American artifacts, colonial era materials, and evidence of some creativity of the owners in the 19th century(possibly) and 1930s. If there is any peer reviewed research produced by professional archaeologists that suggests otherwise I would like to see the citations?


James
7/21/2019 06:03:20 pm

Doc Rock, the reconstruction made by Goodwin in the 1930's was only partial and just to a few of the walls on the site. If you take a close look at the walls you can see clear evidence of where the original wall begins and where the reconstruction begins. The original wall is tightly fitted and very sturdy with little to no gaps in the stone work except for intentional windows or doorways. The reconstructed stonework was quite rushed, leaving gaps and other inconsistencies that show a clear definition between what is original and what was rebuilt after the damage done by quarries and children that essentially used the hilltop as a playground in the early 20th century. There are still many unaltered stone walls farther out from the main site that are completely original.

Also it is true that prior to King Phillip's War there were settlers farther west that Salem, however they were very sparse in this region. The first purchase and settlement of this particular hilltop was not until 1744, and that was also the first mention of stone chambers and walls on the hilltop, which theoretically discredits any 19th century construction theories. As I am not currently at the museum I do not have any of the files with me to name specific citations, but I should be able to provide some specific findings within the week. As for "artifacts" the chambers themselves are essentially artifacts. Over thousands of years many small pieces could have been washed away or broken or used by other cultures, leaving only the large stone works behind. Also, there is no real reason to discount the theory that Native Americans constructed the site. With so many artifacts directly linked to Native American tribes using the area, this is certainly a possibility. What Ancient Aliens provided is just one theory out of many that our researchers are currently exploring.

Doc Rock
7/21/2019 06:23:53 pm

My point about areas occupied prior to King Phillips War was that it is difficult to set an exact 18th century date for a given site and state that it was the first European occupation. The fact that prior settlement was sparse is pretty much part of the point of later arrivals not being aware of earlier isolated settlement, I don't know if that could be the case here. I just raised this issue in terms of the King Phillips War because finding what appears to be ancient ruins in frontier settings previously thought to be unoccupied by Europeans is not really evidence that a site should be attributed to ancient Europeans.

My understanding is that there had been various alterations and impacts on the site for centuries. In the absence of actual research conducted by professionals I am skeptical of assertions about what is "original" and/or unaltered compared to what might have occurred in the 1830s or 1930s.

Yes, the stones themselves could be considered artifacts in a general sense. However, it is noteworthy that a lot of smaller diagnostic artifacts have been found in the area, but nothing that indicates a pre-historic non-Native presence. That the site is simply colonial and overlaying much much older Native American sites is the most likely explanation, not just a possibility

E.P. Grondine
7/22/2019 09:47:58 am

"Also, there is no real reason to discount the theory that Native Americans constructed the site. With so many artifacts directly linked to Native American tribes using the area, this is certainly a possibility"

Thank you.

My colleague Fletcher Wilson and myself are documenting Adena monoliths:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBFlFRLnzk8

We have abundance of Adena stone structures here in Ohio.
I think it is likely that other native peoples used stone constructions as well.

I assume that your people are looking for tool marks.



James
7/22/2019 05:18:52 pm

Doc Rock, the theory that ancient Europeans built the site was the one that was presented on the History Channel. That is why I am presenting evidence pertaining to that theory. Of course there is a great deal of other theories that also have evidence. What Ancient Aliens failed to do was present all of these theories in their episode which may be leading to some of your confusing (as long as I am not misunderstand you). The theory that a precolumbian Eurpoean civilization constructed the site is as stated, just a theory. We are currently doing a lot of research with professional archeologists to really nail down the exact origins of the site. The majority of the evidence I have seen points to precolumbian European construction, however the water is so muddy with a combination of professionals and lunatics on all sides of the debate that it is difficult to see what is truth and what is a rumor. I have done my best to weed out the conspiracy theories and provide the scientific evidence we have to the best of my ability, and it is up to you to draw your own conclusions. We can leave no door unopened and quite literally no stone unturned when searching for the truth behind so many of these mysterious sites.

Doc Rock
7/22/2019 08:36:00 pm

James,

Unfortunately, tuning into the History channel for reliable historical material is like tuning into MTV to find quality music videos. The bottom line is that all research by real professionals clearly indicates that the site is colonial European that was later modified on top of much older Native American sites. I asked you for any peer reviewed publications by qualified specialists which indicate otherwise. Until you produce citations for these, this is not even really a matter for informed discussion. I will be happy to revisit this topic when/if any such materials come to light.

Kent
7/21/2019 09:08:12 pm

"These are not scratches or geological anomalies, because they are clearly visible to the naked eye"

Because "scratches or geological anomalies" are invisible?

"and have been translated by experts in the field."

If those "experts" are Barry Fell, rest assured that the "translation" is wrong.

Reply
James
7/21/2019 11:49:29 pm

No, it was actually Norman Fell — the actor who portrayed Mr. Roper in the American sitcom “Three’s Company.”

Jim
7/22/2019 10:18:22 am

Well on the plus side Norman Fell has more credibility than Barry Fell.

Jim
7/21/2019 04:39:31 pm

OK, James I will play along.

"Our carbon dating and other research places the construction of the site well before Columbus and other colonization of the American Continent (roughly 2000 BCE)."

First off, what was carbon dated to 2000 BCE (4000 years ago) ???
Who collected the samples to be carbon dated, were they qualified to do this work ? ,,, archaeologists ?

Since you have stated that the structures are built upon bedrock this would automatically preclude any carbon dating via depth of soil as there was no soil present, or the builders dug down to bedrock thus mixing the bottom layers with the top layers making any carbon dating useless.

Saying carbon dating proves your point without adding any particulars is wasting time.
How do we know you didn't use a ouije board to find this data?

Reply
Jim
7/21/2019 05:18:20 pm

https://phys.org/news/2015-09-america-stonehenge-hampshire-history-hoax.html

"Stone said three carbon dating efforts indicate the site was used about 4,000 years ago and one fire pit is 7,300 years old (scientists say the research proves only that there was a fire and that none of those dates is linked to human activity)."

"Starbuck notes the 19th century quarrying marks on many of the stones and said the site has been altered so many times over the decades—particularly by owner and researcher William Goodwin starting in 1936—that there will never be a way to settle the argument over its genesis."

https://www.stonehengeusa.com/

"Various inscriptions have been found throughout the site including Ogham, Phoenician and Iberian Punic Script. Dr. Barry Fell of Harvard University did extensive work on the inscriptions found at the site."

There you have it their own site cites Barry Fell !
Citing Barry Fell is the kiss of death for authenticity.

Reply
James
7/21/2019 05:47:11 pm

The carbon dating corroborates our use of the alignment stones. Due to the Earth's tilt, the sun no longer aligns perfectly with these stones when viewed from the site. However, 4,000 years ago (give or take about 200 years) the sun would have aligned perfectly with the top of all of these stones. The carbon dating that was collected by real archeologists does have pre colonial and precolumbian dates. Whether these fire pits were used by precolumbian Europeans or Native Americans is still unknown, but it is still hard science that states people were here on the site before any colonists.

Jim
7/21/2019 06:59:10 pm

OK, so there were fires there about 4000 and 7300 years ago. Ummmm,,, evidence of nothing really.

" However, 4,000 years ago (give or take about 200 years) the sun would have aligned perfectly with the top of all of these stones."

Apparently one has to walk around on the exact time of the alignment to find where the right angle is to view the event from.

http://www.mysteryhillnh.info/html/solar_alignments.html

"The other alignments, specifically the summer solstice sunset, winter solstice sunset, and equinox sunrise, were most likely viewed from a position 30 to 60 feet from each standing stone. Field observations indicate the location of 30 to 60 feet from each standing stone was the most practical viewing location."

I can do that with the doghouse in my back yard. With nothing to mark the viewing point, claiming a 4000 date is just silly.

From the same link:

"Field observations on the summer solstice have confirmed that a person situated at the drain can accurately witness the disk of the sun rising over the lower right hand end of the slant on the standing stone."

So, this alignment is valid at this point in time but others were only valid 4000 years ago ? This just does not jive, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

It is said that Mr. Goodwin moved stones and rebuilt structures to where he thought they came from and how he imagined they once looked,,,,yikes.
Toss in the 19th century quarrying marks on many of the stones and you have nothing.

Jim
7/22/2019 11:01:18 am

Here is another fun link:

https://faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/archeol/mystery2.htm

" True North Stone.-- This stone (Photo) aligns with the true north for the pole star. Excavations around the base of the stone uncovered a fire pit located at a higher level than its base. This indicates that the stone has been in place prior to the fire pit. A radio-carbon dating of charcoal samples give a date of 650 A.D."

Further proof of ancient activity in America is the fact that the bases of all power poles are also below this 650 A.D. depth.
Wow, whoever built these pre-columbian structures were on the power grid.

James
7/22/2019 05:37:27 pm

Jim, yes at lot of the stones withing the main site were moved and damaged. However Goodwin did little to no work on the alignment stones.

As for the alignment stones that are valid today, this is because the stones themselves are several feet wide. Over 4,000 years the tilt of the Earth has only moved a fresh degrees, so when viewing the stones from the highest point on the hill, the sun still seems to align with the largest monoliths. However, the sun does not rise or set exactly at the point of any of the stone monoliths anymore. Roughly 4,000 years ago the sun would have been rising and setting precisely at the point of every single one of the stone monoliths. Now it simply grazes the edge of the stones.

What we have is a very old site that we openly admit is not even close to being 100% original. Of course there were alterations made and artifacts taken and stones moved, because nobody really knew the importance of the site until the mid 20th century. This damage done to the site does make some of the research questionable I am not denying that. However many of the walls surrounding the 1 acre main site have only been discovered within the last few years and were professionally and accurately recorded. Whether these walls are colonial or ancient is still being researched, but it is an example of how we are doing the best we can to properly research the history of the site and deal with the mistakes made by previous owners.

Jim
7/22/2019 07:03:19 pm

James:

" However Goodwin did little to no work on the alignment stones."

How do you know this, did he document his work ? If not it is just guesswork.

" Roughly 4,000 years ago the sun would have been rising and setting precisely at the point of every single one of the stone monoliths. Now it simply grazes the edge of the stones."

But that is not completely true, is it ?
Of the 5 stones making up both the sunrise and sunset equinoxes only 1 stone is actually standing. Making the other 4 just rocks laying on the ground in a place full of rocks lying on the ground.

As to the "Moon Standstill Alignment.-- As viewed from a large boulder about 20 ft. north of the south end of this wall"
This standing stone isn't standing either, so, you look from a boulder to a rock lying on the ground and declare it an Alignment ? There are probably thousands of rocks scattered hither and yon that if I wanted to I could find dozens more "Alignments". Just not buying it.

Other "standing stone alignments" that have no "standing stones" are Nov. 1 sunset, Nov 1 sunset and May 1 sunrise.

And than the map shows a number of alignments with no stones at all to make an alignment, whats up with that ?

Also what is up with the " Large Curved Wall.-- This wall that is aligned to true north"
How exactly does a curved wall align to true north ?

I'm just not feeling it James, seems more like the usual pseudo nonsense of seeing things that aren't really there to support a rather wild claim.
There is nothing that you can hang your hat on to support such an extraordinary claim. Eighty years and not a shred of solid evidence. Time to give up the ghost.

Doc Rock
7/22/2019 09:15:48 pm

Based on even a "little" reworking of the alignment of stones and getting to selectively pick the viewing spot(s) one could probably use the ruins of any given circa-1840 farmstead in Appalachia to find all sorts of interesting correlations to celestial events.

This whole topic reminds me a bit of the discussion on some forum after the Maya Blue episode of AU. Some poster in the discussion claimed that mysterious and atypical stone walls in Georgia had to be the work of Mayans. Someone then pointed out that those walls were in the exact area where their ancestors in the early 20th century had built stone terracing to more effectively farm marginal ground.

Jim
7/22/2019 09:29:47 pm

From Archy Fantasies:

https://archyfantasies.com/the-dubious-mystery-of-mystery-hill-and-americas-stonehenge/

"Several archaeological digs have been done in the area. One of importance was led by Gary Vescelius in 1955 (Starbuck 2006). His team recovered over 7000 artifacts, all of which were Native American or 18th and 19th century in origin (Starbuck 2006, Crystalinks N.d.). These artifacts were noting out of the ordinary for the area and line up perfectly with what is expected from the archaeology in the area."

Doc, are you thinking what I am thinking ? Only the Templars were fastidious enough to pull this off and leave absolutely nothing behind.

Doc Rock
7/22/2019 09:40:19 pm

Or yet again those bastards at the Smithsonian struck very early and quickly and the artifacts and faunal and floral remains that one would expect to find at a site occupied by non-Europeans of the time were consigned to the pyre long ago.

Jim
7/22/2019 09:58:35 pm

What if the Smithsonians are in fact Templars ?

Doc Rock
7/22/2019 10:15:36 pm

Makes perfect sense give the lack of actual evidence. They were very careful to clean up after themselves during the centuries they were traipsing across North America. Then as insurance they later infiltrated the Smithsonian and used their positions to tie up any loose ends.

E.P. Grondine
7/23/2019 11:17:57 am

"Several archaeological digs have been done in the area. One of importance was led by Gary Vescelius in 1955 (Starbuck 2006). His team recovered over 7000 artifacts, all of which were Native American or 18th and 19th century in origin (Starbuck 2006, Crystalinks N.d.). These artifacts were noting out of the ordinary for the area and line up perfectly with what is expected from the archaeology in the area."

Thank you, Jim.

There's the data, Doc. Now those artifacts should tell us who and when. You can not ignore them and simply posture.

Jim
7/23/2019 12:40:51 pm

Sadly the chain of custody for any artifacts lead to the current owners of the property who of course have no expertise and promote the Stonehenge nonsense.
The actual reports of Gary Vescelius and other professionals would tell us much, however the artifacts passed into the hands of pseudos who may tell us all sorts of nonsense about them at this point.

"The Stone family still owns the land and it has become a bit of a tourist location. The museum there acts as an interpretation center for the site and offers a variety of ideas for the visitor to chew over, and appears to display the artifacts discovered during the actual archaeological digs done on the site."

Doc Rock
7/23/2019 01:20:47 pm

Yep, the only diagnostic artifacts recovered in-situ clearly indicate what everyone says: Native American, Colonial European, and American. I think that is pretty much what everyone has been saying would be found there for a hell of a long time.

Kent
7/23/2019 07:12:58 pm

Why is the old man accusing Doc of "posturing"? Is he OK?

Drew
7/22/2019 02:48:34 am

What is the source for the story of Odin sleeping in a mountain? Is there really such a story?

Reply
Jason Colavito link
7/22/2019 06:56:48 am

It is my understanding that the story is a reconstruction based on the widespread sleeping king myth. Plutarch records one version among the Celts associated with a god he called Koronos, which seems to be the Celtic equivalent of Odin/Wotan in the story. Most of my books are still packed in boxes, but my memory is that scholars suggested it to be a Germanic story (I guess of Wotan) rather than a Norse one, but I'd have to look it up.

Reply
Charles Verrastro link
7/22/2019 02:57:28 pm

Jason is probably thinking of the Germanic legend of King Karl and his troop, similar to King Arthur's enchanted sleep alongside his warriors. King Karl and His Army in Odin's Mountain

Germany
King Karl fought a great battle at the foot of Odin's Mountain. So much blood was shed that it eroded deep furrows into the ground. These often have been dammed up, but the rain always washes them open again. The floods of blood streamed together and finally poured into the River Besse. Karl fought and prevailed. In the evening the mountain opened up, received him and his exhausted warriors, and then closed its walls.
However, the stories about these events contradict one another. According to some, Karl, pursued by the enemy, fled to Odin's Mountain where he beseeched the Godhead to take him and all of his people into the mountain. The mountain opened up, and Karl went inside with his entire army, whereupon the crevice closed behind them.
In Wagner's ring cycle taken from the Volsunga Sage The story of Brynhild starts with Odin being rejected by the most beautiful of all the valkyries. In a childish fit, Odin put Brynhild to sleep on the top of a mountain with the prick of a magic Thorn like in variants of Sleeping Beauty) surrounded by a ring of fire.
Marvel comics has Odin entering into an annual Odinsleep to renew his vital powers.
In the Havamll he falls into a swoon after being crucified on the World Tree to gain the magical runes of knowledge and power.
I can't think of a specific story although in the flyting exchange between himself and Thor when he says he buggered Thor the Thunder God makes an obscure reference to him napping or being somehow negligent when a great contest was underway.
As Jason suggests, it is an old and nearly universal let motif in legends like the Seven Sleepers. Mircea Eliade went into this in great depth in his concept of a Deus Otiosus or "Hidden God" who retires from the world, possibly to reappear or reawaken in a future time.







Zalmoxis, the vanishing God;: Comparative studies in the religions and folklore of Dacia and Eastern Europe Hardcover – 1972

Accumulated Wisdom
7/22/2019 05:45:02 pm

Thanks for the recap of the “Game of Thrones” finale!

kent
7/22/2019 05:52:16 pm

"Mircea Eliade went into this in great depth in his concept of a Deus Otiosus or "Hidden God" who retires from the world, possibly to reappear or reawaken in a future time."

Reminiscent of the Occultation of the Twelfth Imam. Also and more crassly, Saddam Hussein in his "spider hole".

Accumulated wisdom
7/22/2019 06:38:52 pm

You know there was an episode of the “Arabian Knights” cartoon on the “Banana Splits” TV show that touched on those themes in a manner that I found to be quite subtle. I still prefer “Danger Island” though.

Accumulated Wisdom
7/23/2019 01:20:58 am

Please ignore the imposter.

There is an astrological interpretation to the "sleeping King myth". Tied to precession, each Astrological King has to sleep for a long time before returning. Although, no one will be around to see it, or likely remember the first time around.

I had never thought about it before this writing, some of the stories are similar to the first Chinese emperor with his terracotta army.

Thank you, Charles Verrastro! I was trying to remember the mountain story a while back. My free recall ability is returning very slowly.

Anthony Warren once scored seven touchdowns in one football game.
7/23/2019 08:06:20 am

The impostor made a better point than you did.

Kent
7/23/2019 05:19:14 pm

Actually he scored four touchdowns in a single game while playing for the Polk High School Panthers in the city championship game versus Andrew Johnson High School, including the game-winning touchdown in the final seconds against his old nemesis, "Spare Tire" Dixon.

TONY S.
7/23/2019 05:56:46 pm

KENT:

Fantastic reference to Al Bundy! Well done.

jezzy j
7/22/2019 07:20:12 am

"...the Tuatha De Danaan are euhemerized pagan gods..."
How dare you Colavito. I have proof I just made up the worship of these dieties was brought here by voyagers from the "new" world. It was the barbarous nature of the Europeans that allowed it to drift into Roman Catholicism.

Reply
Morgan Freeman
7/22/2019 05:11:28 pm

This reminds me of the time in Shawshank Prison when the Sisters dragged my friend Andy Dufresne down into their love nest under the laundry that they nicknamed the Root Cellar. That was the longest night of Andy's life.

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          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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