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Review of Ancient Aliens S14E18 "Food of the Gods"

11/1/2019

120 Comments

 
Picture
Picture
Here is how little thought anyone gave to tonight’s episode of Ancient Aliens: The official History Channel episode description, as of the East Coast airing of the show at 9 PM ET, read, in its entirety, “Texts, archaeology and legend contain evidence of past human-extraterrestrial contact.” The title of tonight’s episode derives from an Indo-European legend that the gods ate and drank special comestibles that preserved and protected their immortality. Cognate legends can be found from Europe to India (hence, Indo-European!), including the Greek nectar and ambrosia and the Hindu amrita. “Amrita” and “ambrosia” share an etymology, so this is not particularly shocking. The title of “food of the gods” ended up in an H. G. Wells novel about giants, not one of his better, and the B-movie based on it—also awful. But for our purposes it is best known from Terrence McKenna’s use of the title for one of his books, in which he argued that Homo erectus involved into Homo sapiens thanks to the consumption of hallucinogenic mushrooms. Somewhere in all that is a lesson about Ancient Aliens, a hallucinogenic fantasy in the style of an awful B-movie that pretends to the dignity of ancient faith.
Segment 1
We open with physicist Michio Kaku, a biologist, and some kooks contemplating how humans might feed themselves while traveling from planet to planet on some hypothetical future space mission. Then we hear about a 1961 UFO sighting in Wisconsin in which the witness claimed to see two aliens leave a UFO and drop a cracker, which he ate (!) and said tasted like cardboard. That’s because the cracker lacked salt, which gives crackers their buttery taste. The show claims that the lack of salt proves that the cracker (or wafer) was baked by aliens, who may be allergic to salt (!!). This, they say, is the case because ghosts, fairies, and demons can be repelled with salt. This is a lot of weight to put on a badly baked wafer that looks like the burned crust from spilled batter. I’m pretty sure that if you don’t add salt, then there won’t be salt, so it shouldn’t be mysterious.
 
Segment 2
The second segment covers the old chestnut about the Israelites receiving manna from heaven. Four decades ago, The Manna Machine claimed that the bread of heaven came from a machine whose plans the authors believed was hidden in a description of the Ancient of Days in the Zohar. Oddly, the show chooses to illustrate this with pictures of the Ark of the Covenant. It’s a silly old claim, based largely on the reader trusting the authors that they and they alone have correctly translated the Zohar to reveal hidden mechanical details, but what interests me a bit here is that in commenting on this decrepit old claim the show got Whitley Strieber to utter the word “aliens,” surprising since the Communion author has been so adamant that he didn’t want to label the entities that allegedly anally probed him as aliens. Cash is king, I guess.
 
Then we move on to animal sacrifice, and Nick Redfern suggests that aliens ate and drank the parts of the sacrificed animals. The real reason for this goes back to the magical thinking of the past and the attempt to make right with the gods by showing animals respect, slaughtering them ritually, and magically making them whole again through rites designed to restore them in the realm of the dead. Walter Burkert wrote a whole book about it, the classic Homo necans, but here the kooks pretend that cattle mutilations—if real (and not just natural decay), the ultimate disrespect to an animal—are the same as Antique animal sacrifices. Here is one key difference: The Greeks and Romans didn’t have butcher shops where animals were killed in an industrial fashion. Meat was butchered and distributed at the temples, and even those destined for the butcher were killed ritually and shared with the gods. The sacrifices were a way of trying to square the violence of meat-eating with the respect afforded to living beings.
Segment 3
The third segment gets into the Greek gods’ ambrosia, which gave the gods immortality and extended the lives of humans who consumed it. In the nineteenth century, a strong argument was made that ambrosia and amrita originated in a belief that the waters of thunderstorms, which watered the fields, also gave life and power to the gods. The argument is long and not worth discussing here, but it’s wroth noting that Ancient Aliens takes the mythical stories at face value without even a moment of consideration as to the deeper origins of the story. From this, the show speaks of kings and patriarchs whose reigns were recorded in hundreds of years, and they just assume it’s literally true. Giorgio Tsoukalos said that Enoch claimed to have been anointed with a substance that smelled like ambrosia, though this does not appear in the Book of Enoch.
 
After this, the show claims that human blood can confer health and life-extension benefits, so vampire aliens might suck our blood to keep themselves fresh. Nick Redfern seems to claim that blood is a substance invented by space aliens, though this makes no sense since humans are not the only creatures to have blood, and there is no plausible way for there to have been humans before there was blood.
 
Segment 4
The fourth segment describes the Catholic ritual of the Eucharist, in which bread and wine are believed to become the flesh and blood of Jesus. The literal truth of this is prima facie false, since the bread and wine are still obviously bread and wine. Nick Redfern seems to say that Jesus was an alien and drank human blood to stay alive. Sigh. However, the talking heads seems to have trouble with this idea, and Strieber openly says that he prefers to think of the Eucharist as a “beautiful” story rather than weird alien vampirism. David Childress claims that the Eucharist was inspired by Indian soma rituals, apparently thinking about the hoax claim that Jesus lived in India, though soma was not blood but a plant-based stimulant drink, presumably derived from Central Asian and Indo-European practices. Ritual drinks are not exactly unique to Christianity or the Vedas. The Greeks had their kykeon, for example, that was shared during the Eleusinian Mysteries.
Segment 5
In the fifth segment, Strieber claims that the aliens forced him to drink nepenthe, a substance that causes amnesia. That’s fine, but Strieber calls it a white, milky substance (combine that with the anal probes for some Freudian fun!). However, Homer describes it not as a drink but as a drug that could be mixed into wine (Odyssey 4.219-222). In ancient times it was considered an herb; some today believe it to be opium. Either way, not the same. Naturally, the show assumes that aliens are slipping mickeys to abductees to cover up their vampirism. Of course.
 
Afterward, the show recaps Zecharia Sitchin’s claim that humans were genetically engineered by space aliens in Sumeria, and then for no good reason they let William Henry pretend that the Genesis narrative of Adam and Eve can be traced directly to equivalent Sumerian stories, a claim popular in the early 1900s but not supportable by facts. Jewish and Babylonian (not Sumerian) stories were in conversation, but the serpent can’t be equated to Enki. The show next alleges that Adam and Eve were “primitive” ape-like proto-humans until “the intake of food” (i.e. the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge) caused them to mutate into anatomically modern humans. There is, of course, no scriptural, legendary, or antique artistic evidence in support of this claim. At best, it seems a riff on Enkidu’s transformation from animalistic wild man to civilized fellow through sex with a prostitute in the Epic of Gilgamesh. There is an argument that could be made here, but the show’s claims are so broken into meaningless fragments as to be senseless.
Segment 6
The final segment discusses how hydroponics can be used to grow nutritive algae to sustain astronauts during long-term space travel. Kaku suggests we may genetically engineer our bodies to consume different types of energy. The show concludes by suggesting that doing so will simply be imitating our vampire alien ancestors.
120 Comments
Iskanander
11/1/2019 11:07:53 pm

"We open with physicist Michio Kaku, a biologist, and some kooks contemplating how humans might feed themselves while traveling from planet to planet on some hypothetical future space mission."

God bless your eyes for sitting through that, Jason.

So what we have here is fucking some kind of "Tang of The Gods".

Like some kind of Cooking Channel episode if AA.

We need to kill the internet.

That's all I can think.

Reply
RockKnocker
11/3/2019 09:54:20 am

Except that Kaku is a theoretical physicist, not a biologist. No surprise he’s out of his discipline here. I wonder what questions he was actually asked, versus what the producers want us to assume he is answering.....

Reply
Kent
11/3/2019 10:24:28 am

Don't necessarily blame the producers. Like Tyson Kaku loves to pontificate about matters outside of his area of expertise.

Hayden Roark
11/3/2019 05:56:47 pm

At least Kaku has an area of expertise, unlike a certain buffoon who apparently has no life outside of posting moronic comments here under multiple identities. The idiot uses so many names that he can’t even keep them all straight himself!

Kent
11/3/2019 08:24:32 pm

I think you're being too hard on Anthony, Jim, Hal, or yourself. Can't really tell.

Ham Grancock
11/2/2019 04:50:36 am

The Romans did indeed have butcher shops.

"Meat was butchered and distributed at the temples, and the sacrifices were a way of trying to square the violence of meat-eating with the respect afforded to living beings."

That certainly explains the grain sacrifices prescribed in Leviticus. Harvesting wheat is traumatic business.

"a badly baked wafer that looks like the burned crust from spilled batter"

Oy vey.

I'd like hear more about this buttery salt.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
11/2/2019 06:52:35 am

Keebler Townhouse crackers contain no butter. The salt creates the sensation of butter flavor. If you had one without salt, you would not experience the buttery flavor.

http://smartlabel.kelloggs.com/Product/Index/00030100100553#ingredients

Reply
Ham Grancock
11/2/2019 08:02:12 am

They're 1/3 fat by weight but it's the salt that makes them buttery? Pull the other one.

Here's a thought experiment: put salt on a matzo and report on how buttery it tastes.

Kent
11/6/2019 12:58:22 pm

Jason,

I don't appreciate being called a Negro here. I have no problem with black people but I think it's inappropriate. I sense a bunch of white people getting their racism on and I don't want to be involved. Could you please do something about this?

Thanks.

Mista Kurtz
11/2/2019 08:23:09 am

"The show claims that the lack of salt proves that the cracker (or wafer) was baked by aliens"

Actually the Wisconsin UFO sighting was during Passover. Thus the cracker probably was a matzo, baked by Manischewitz and not aliens.

Reply
Hal
11/2/2019 08:25:18 am

And now we know that Jason craves some of Strieber’s salty, buttery, milky white goo squirted down his throat.

Reply
Moe Bigsley
11/3/2019 05:05:13 pm

Congratulations on your special insight into the taste of male "essence."

Reply
Shane Sullivan
11/2/2019 10:34:16 am

"Then we hear about a 1961 UFO sighting in Wisconsin in which the witness claimed to see two aliens leave a UFO and drop a cracker, which he ate (!) ..."

IT'S COLD OUT HERE, JASON, WE HAVE TO GET OUR CALORIES HOWEVER WE CAN.

Reply
Jr. Time Lord
11/2/2019 11:31:05 am

"Then we hear about a 1961 UFO sighting in Wisconsin in which the witness claimed to see two aliens leave a UFO and drop a cracker, which he ate (!) and said tasted like cardboard."

Are you talking about the "buckwheat pancake"?

I still have the Time-Life paranormal series of books featuring that story. I'll have to dig the books out but I'm pretty sure there's a picture of the dude holding the pancake.

Reply
Anthony, I don't need advice about how to handle this situation. - S. Wolter
11/2/2019 11:57:21 am

Any serious researcher knows that Step #1 is "Ask what Anthony Warren thinks he remembers from a book he can't find."

https://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/paranormal-researcher-coming-to-la-crosse-library-to-share-stories/article_998b8ab4-2f73-5d1b-87e2-aaed757b6d85.html

Reply
Jr. Time Lord
11/2/2019 12:42:03 pm

https://www.dailygrail.com/2016/03/the-1961-story-about-a-chicken-farmer-who-claimed-that-aliens-gave-him-pancakes/


I still have the book. "UFO Encounters". Do you want the ISBN, or the page number?

Reply
ANTHONY, I DON'T NEED ADVICE ABOUT HOW TO HANDLE THIS SITUATION. - S. WOLTER
11/2/2019 12:51:18 pm

Not necessary, another of your madeup stories will do fine. Since you're intent on spewing your bleach scented tales on any face within reach, why fight it?

This is weird
11/2/2019 01:22:18 pm

Why are you following Time Lord around to other sites and stalking him? Do you have a crush on him or something?

ANTHONY, I DON'T NEED ADVICE ABOUT HOW TO HANDLE THIS SITUATION. - S. WOLTER
11/2/2019 01:53:12 pm

Why are you following me? Perhaps I just want that Buddy Rich moment. One of Buddy's band members kept calling his widow and asking for him. After two weeks she flipped out and screamed "I told you he's dead! Why do you keep calling?" And the cat says "I just like hearing it." RU JELLY BRO?

The Unkent
11/3/2019 05:06:56 pm

No need to follow Joe/Kent around. Everyone knows where he/they are at any given point. Right here.

Kal
11/2/2019 12:05:22 pm

In the 1960s, the drugged wafer was a common tool of drug addled hippies, as seen in the documentaries of the hippie movement. It was indirectly a communion thing, as in the Communion, but with hippies. I've read Streiber's books. They are little more than fun hippie drug fantasies about how he had passed out at a party and got roofied,and then probed, nothing more. They were aliens, but not the type from space.

As for Kaku, he is a little far out, but his lines are out of context.

Someone there already beat me to the milky salt infused substance joke, so I will not drink from that elixir. Ha.

Aliens though who are 'allergic' to water or salt would be asinine to land on a planet with 70 percent saltwater oceans. Wasn't that the subject of Alien Nation, that buddy cop alien show from the 1990s? It was based on a movie.

if the gods drink from stuff to enhance themselves, and their minds, it is most likely some sort of hallucinogen. But on AA they only need to make up stories to hallucinate, and need no drugs.

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Jr. Time Lord
11/2/2019 12:46:36 pm

"Wasn't that the subject of Alien Nation, that buddy cop alien show from the 1990s? It was based on a movie."

Is Will Smith's Netflix series a remake of "Alien Nation"? Until recently having to watch "Aladdin" with my wife, "Wild, Wild West" was the last Will Smith movie I sat through.

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KLH
11/2/2019 02:45:18 pm

Drugged wafers? Why not just drugged drugs? It's not like they were unpopular. On the other hand I've always shaved for free due to all the Halloween apple razor blades I collected decades ago.

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Jr. Time Lord
11/2/2019 12:50:51 pm

For those who still enjoy reading books.

"Plants of the Gods"

Richard Evans, Albert Hofmann & Christian Ratsch

ISBN 089281979-0

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Transubstantiation
11/2/2019 01:55:21 pm

Eat my flesh, drink my blood. Whosoever does that will obtain immortality in Heaven. Nothing new.

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Kent
11/3/2019 01:10:15 am

That's Anthony Warren, five-time state champion in Teaching His Grandmother to Suck Eggs. Master of the Misplaced Book, Confidant of Unnamed College Professors. Doesn't Want Taters. "Spoilin' nice fish. Give it to us raw and wrigglin'. You keep nasty chips."

I hear Norman Vincent Peale and Henry Ford have some items in the pipeline too. Also hearing good buzz about this new book Moby Dick.

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KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/3/2019 02:14:29 am

MORE RUBBISH FROM KENT THE BELIEVER IN RUBBISH
KENT CAN ONLY WRITE RUBBISH
THE EUCHARIST WAS ORIGINALLY A NON-HALLUCINOGENIC, BLAH-BLAH-BLAH

THE WORK ON DRUGS DURING THE 1960s WAS REDISCOVERIES OF THE PAST

WITNESS THE SUMERIAN BAS-RELIEFS

KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/3/2019 02:19:29 am

KENT IS IGNORANT ABOUT DRUGS AND RELIGION
KENT MISTAKENLY BELIEVES THAT THE LINK BETWEEN DRUGS AND RELIGION MEANS THAT THE PRIESTS WERE LIKE JUNKIES

CRASS IGNORANCE
DRUGS WERE PROBABLY TAKEN ONCE IN THE PRIEST'S LIFETIME AND REGARDED AS DOORWAYS INTO INNER SPACE AND ORIGINS

kENT is Anthony Warren
11/3/2019 11:22:45 am

KENT IS IGNORANT. BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE HE IS JUST AS IGNORANT WHEN HE IS ANTHONY WARREN. TOGETHER HE/THEY ARE THE RECTOVAGINAL FISTULA ON THE RUE MCLANAHAN THAT IS AMERICA. THE BIBLE IS TRUE.

DO NOT LET THEM SIT ON YOUR SOFA. READ THE BIBLE. IT IS THE WHOLE EARTH CATALOG FOR ALL THE AGES.

An Over-Educated Grunt
11/4/2019 05:50:58 pm

Preach on, Brother 666/KIF/Time Machine, my brother in Christ!

KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/4/2019 06:00:30 pm

Come on, I'm game for a live television interview with Jorge Mario Bergoglio to openly disclose for the first time what Judeo-Christianity is based and founded upon.

The trouble with the disclosure would be that hundreds of thousands of people all over the world will suddenly desire to experience the original nature of Christianity.

E.T.
11/2/2019 02:27:19 pm

Everyone thought I phoned home so that they would pick me up. The truth is I was calling Grub hub to pick up a Pizza and deliver it to me. My home planet is freezing cold and there is no football. It is boring as hell and all we have to eat is badly baked tasteless crackers.

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Kent
11/2/2019 09:37:15 pm

"Because of the copper present in hemocyanin, their blood is blue. Their blood contains amebocytes, which play a similar role to the white blood cells of vertebrates in defending the organism against pathogens. Amebocytes from the blood of L. polyphemus are used to make Limulus amebocyte lysate (LAL), which is used for the detection of bacterial endotoxins in medical applications. There is a high demand for the blood, the harvest of which involves collecting and bleeding the animals, and then releasing them back into the sea. Most of the animals survive the process; mortality is correlated with both the amount of blood extracted from an individual animal, and the stress experienced during handling and transportation."

See? All the kids are doing it!

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An Anonymous Nerd
11/2/2019 10:33:28 pm

I can't figure out which has more crazy leaps of attempted logic -- the show (tasteless food, therefore aliens), or the posts of Fringe types who come here to defend it (Mr. Colavito gay, therefore aliens and gay jokes).

-An Anonymous Nerd

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Jim
11/3/2019 12:37:05 am

If there are no aliens, how do you explain tofu ?

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History Buff
11/3/2019 03:05:58 am

Demons

History Buff
11/3/2019 02:58:32 am

Yes, soma is believed to be an opiate.

Greeks and Romans had butcher shops.

As Abraham came from Ur, there are clear similarities between Genesis and the Sumerian/Babylonian/Akkadian/Assyrian stories. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Utnapishtim. This is nothing new.

They could have gone beyond the Indo-Europeans and included the use of cocoa as a sacred drink.

Keep up the good work, Jason.

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An Anonymous Nerd
11/3/2019 08:48:15 am

So regarding the Wisconsin 1961 UFO sighting/visitation that's part of Segment One? Here's an account from a sympathetic Internet site.

http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports/r1961_0418_vilas.html

Not only does it still sound ridiculous but it doesn't make the point the show wants to make. It was a pancake, not a cracker, and the witness said that the aliens were making the tasteless pancakes when he encountered them. So it tells us nothing about how to survive space travel, unless the message is to periodically land on planets with enough gravity to make pancakes.

The account ultimately sounds more like a dude who was high on marijuana and LSD who encountered some folks (fellow druggies maybe?) who were making pancakes in their unusually-decorated camper, than it does like a UFO encounter.

-An Anonymous Nerd

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Kent
11/3/2019 09:20:54 am

A possible precursor to Dead Show Parking Lot Culture. Like the discovery of Pre-Clovis sites this will revolutionize anthropology once the hidebound Powers That Be in Academiathecatholicchurchandthesmithsonian die off and cease to conceal THE TRUTH.

Bad pancakes were independently invented on Earth and do not require alien intervention. Coincidentally "Bad Pancakes" was my Appalachian Trail name back in '85.

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Dick
11/3/2019 07:47:45 pm

1885.

Kent
11/3/2019 08:27:38 pm

"I was born in the Highlands of Scotland..."

MacLeod
11/3/2019 08:55:42 pm

To Clan MacScales.

Joe Scales
11/3/2019 10:07:12 pm

Nope. It's Clan Gunn for you.
You imbecile.

Ron Slater
11/3/2019 10:19:27 pm

Everybody take a bong hit

Bezalel
11/4/2019 05:08:18 am

Even a correct quote from Highlander would only count if you viewed it before 1990 and liked it before everyone else did

Kent
11/4/2019 06:46:27 am

So I'm covered on all counts. I was so ... enjoying my reminiscing of Jesus and how he changed my life ... that the Queen song in the opening really imprinted on me.

Christopher Lambert playing a Scot and Sean Connery playing a Russian. Those were the days.

(Yes I know in Highlander he played an Egyptian but later he played a Russian, more accurately a Lithuanian,")

Vigo Mortensen
11/4/2019 06:22:08 pm

Imagine that. Actors playing characters of other nationalities. Such an unusual concept!!

Kent
11/5/2019 05:36:46 am

So Christopher Lambert sounds Scottish to you and Sean Connery sounds Russian to you? (If you're commanding a Soviet sub, you're speaking Russian not Lithuanian.) One ping only Васи́лий.

At least they knew how to spell their own names.

John Wayne as Genghis Khan
11/5/2019 12:02:31 pm

Apparently for the first time in cinematic history Hollywood decided to have somebody with a crappy Scottish accent play a Highland Scot. Would probably really blow your mind if you listen closely to some of the westerns of the 30s and 40s and realize that some of the Indian warriors speak English like they were raised in Brooklyn. Its not like cinema of the 80s suddenly pushed the envelop for suspension of disbelief when it came to casting and crappy accents.

Someone speaking English isn't my idea of what a mid-16th century Highland Scot would sound like anyway. If you insist on linguistic and historical accuracy much of the first half hour of the film should have been in Scots Gaelic with subtitles.

Kent
11/5/2019 01:33:12 pm

Yeah, except you're a retard. Christopher Lambert wasn't putting on "a crappy Scottish accent" he was speaking in his natural voice. Connery was putting on a crappy Scottish accent when he was playing a Soviet Lithuanian.

It must be so hard
Being a retard

Charles Bronson Playing an Apache
11/5/2019 03:20:43 pm

Lamberts speech in Highlander is consistently ranked high in the history of crappy Scottish accents even by Scots. Like many miscast actors his attempt at accent was on again off again. If you think, for example, his line "heather please" or any number of other lines in the film set in 16th century Scotland is the way that lambert would say it in his normal French accented English then you are an idiot. Maybe watch the film again if you actually even watched it and actually listen. Work on that whole suspension of disbelief in cinema too. Try some haggis while you are at it.

Kent
11/5/2019 03:56:40 pm

I've seen the movie multiple times and have normal hearing.

"consistently ranked" By whom? People who touched you in daycare? I make my own decisions.

He never attempted a Scottish accent.

The Irish Chick Playing an English Chick in Outlander
11/5/2019 04:24:50 pm

From:

The Scotsman (July 16, 2016). Accent Coaching for Highland Actor Lambert.

"Highlander star Christopher Lambert has revealed he spent four months trying to perfect a Scottish accent for his role in the cult classic film...The actor said he had a voice coach to help him pronounce words, while co-star Sean Connery also gave him advice on set."

IDIOT!

Kent Trying to Play an Intelligent Person
11/5/2019 04:35:57 pm

In Lambert's own words, "I trained with a voice coach for a Scottish accent for about 12 to 16 weeks."

From the article "Edinburgh 2016: Talking Highlander's 30th Anniversary with the Immortal Christopher Lambert

IMBECILE!

A Smart Guy Playing an Idiot like kent
11/5/2019 04:50:50 pm

Lambert spoke very little English when he won the role in Highlander. He had the double challenge of trying to speak with a Scottish accent for the 16th century scenes as well as with a non-specific foreign sounding accent for his scenes in modern America since the storyline had him living in many different places since his first death. The scenes were not filmed in sequence so he had to jump back and forth in speech and struggled with both, especially the Scottish end of things. That's why in some instances he could come up with a halfass Scottish accent and in others it sounded like he was in a scene set 450 years later.

Film class dismissed.

Ham Grancock
11/3/2019 02:18:20 pm

"Meat was butchered and distributed at the temples, and the sacrifices were a way of trying to square the violence of meat-eating with the respect afforded to living beings."

Were fish, squid, and octopus also butchered and distributed at the temples? Squab, dogs, rodents, horses? Dormice? Flamingos? Giraffes? Ostriches? Sorry Jason, but it just sounds like you're making things up.

And the women all were beautiful
And the men stood
Straight and strong
They offered life in sacrifice
So that others could go on.

Hate was just a legend
And war was never known
The people worked together
And they lifted many stones.

And they carried them
To the flatlands
But they died along the way
And they built up
With their bare hands
What we still can't do today.

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Jim
11/3/2019 03:51:31 pm

" Sorry Jason, but it just sounds like you're making things up."

Sorry Ham, but you are just ignorant of the facts and lazy.
A quick google search easily confirms Jason's statement.

"Meat eating was probably limited to religious events – ie eating the meat resulting from a sacrifice. We get a sense of the huge value attributed to meat through various examples,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,So, no butchers in early Rome but a thriving economy, markets, trade, transport, huge intensive cattle farms and money markets developed in later centuries."

https://mariamilani.com/ancient_rome/ancient_roman_jobs.htm

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Ham Grancock
11/4/2019 04:32:55 am

"quick google search" is code for "I'm going to say something that's wrong."

But still, thanks for the link to cherrypicking.com Finding the same site that Jason found doesn't make it true.

You never read about Prince Hui's butcher? You don't think other equally primitive societies would have butchers? You think butchers wouldn't have butcher shops?

Since Sumer had butchers and butcher shops it's disappointing that Rome didn't.

Ham Grancock
11/4/2019 06:28:49 am

Where are the ice temples of the Eskimos, those meat-eating bastards?

Where are the temples to the buffalo? Or the Giant Sloths?

The Masai simply open a vein on their herd animals and drink the blood right from the source. Of course not being Canadian they are sub-human. Where are their temples?

Do poachers have their own special temples? Even the poor with little access to anything will git theirselves some meat.

Jim, I have to ask, do you have a stupidity issue?

"Meat eating was probably limited to religious events" So your best "quick google search" evidence is A GUESS?

Here's a picture of 2nd century AD Year of our Lord and if you don't like it suck it of a Roman butcher shop.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2013/01/12/arts/12iht-conway12-pic2/12iht-conway12-pic2-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

Kent
11/4/2019 12:14:29 pm

Just another sad example of Jim's guesswork approach to even the simplest things. Jim.

Esse negas coctum leporem poscisque flagella.
Mavis, Rufe, cocum scindere, quam leporem.

You'll note there is no temple involved. Jim.

Jim
11/4/2019 12:37:12 pm

Well, hello there Joe Kent American Negro Disco Dan Ham Grancock etc etc,, shouldn't you be complaining about people using an alias ?

"Where are the ice temples of the Eskimos, those meat-eating bastards?
Where are the temples to the buffalo? Or the Giant Sloths?
"The Masai simply open a vein on their herd animals and drink the blood right from the source. Of course not being Canadian they are sub-human. Where are their temples?
Do poachers have their own special temples? Even the poor with little access to anything will git theirselves some meat.
Jim, I have to ask, do you have a stupidity issue?"

Stupidity issue ? ,,,,Your argument that Eskimos ate meat therefore Rome had butcher shops is not very compelling.

"Here's a picture of 2nd century AD Year of our Lord and if you don't like it suck it of a Roman butcher shop."

Um,, you do realize that photo is of a from a Funerary relief of Roman butchers.
You know like Jason said:

"Meat was butchered and distributed at the temples"

Kent
11/4/2019 02:06:52 pm

Jim. Stupid doughy-headed Jim. Jim.

When did I ever say:

"Eskimos ate meat, THEREFORE Romans had butchershops."

??? When? Jim.

Oh that's right! I NEVER said that.

I think it would break Godwin's Law to call you a troll but I feel comfortable saying you are aggressively stupid.

Call the picture "funerary", that's fine. I see flowers in cemetaries. Does that imply that there are no florists?

Let's see what the "newspaper of record" has to say:

"But as some of the subsequent sarcophagi and funerary panels show, monuments also preserved information about more humble classes. One panel here has a vivid relief of a Roman butcher shop. Another pair of reliefs gives two scenes of a deceased artisan’s life: one of him at his anvil and another in an apron behind the counter of his shop, proudly displaying for sale an array of the metal tools he had manufactured."
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/12/arts/12iht-conway12.html

So people had to buy their horseshoes and nails at the temple?

Jim. Stupid Jim. A country boy can learn to butcher an animal. Hint: it's not rocket science. He doesn't need to drag it into town so the priest at the temple can do it for him. Jim.

The Romans brought butchery as an art to England.
https://www.turnerandgeorge.co.uk/news/the-history-of-the-butcher/

Jim. If Ivanka Trump and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Dan Ackroyd had a child it would not be as stupid as you. Jim.

Jason Colavito link
11/4/2019 02:31:42 pm

This is really what you are all hung up on? I reviewed the scholarly literature, and (as with so many things) the role of butchering varies by time and place. Early Greek settlements and early Rome didn't have modern-style butchers because meat was distributed from the temples. Bigger settlements (and especially later ones) where this wasn't practicable had butchers, but they either received meat from the temples or slaughtered animals following sacrificial rituals to appease the gods. The paragraph above has been amended to reflect this.

Aesop
11/4/2019 03:26:16 pm

A primary religious concern in some early Christian communities was the consumption of meat since so much of it was generated by sacrifice at pagan temples and then directly distributed from the temples or used to supply retailers. See, for example, Community, Conflict, and the Eucharist in Roman Corinth.

That does not preclude other sources for protein but does indicate the importance of animal sacrifice as an important component of local economies in Christian era Greco-Roman societies

KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN.
11/4/2019 06:45:49 pm

Peripheral, marginal and banal

Like watching one of those meaningless and aimless Evangelical Missionary TV Programmes,

Jr. Time Lord
11/4/2019 07:03:30 pm

[Among the Romans dinner (cena) was eaten in the middle of the day in early times, with a light supper (vesperna) in the evening. Eventually an evening cena, often commencing in the late afternoon, became usual. Lunch (prandium), consisting of fish or eggs and vegetables together with wine, was eaten towards midday and replaced supper. In the morning there was a very light breakfast (ientaculum), which might consist of only bread and salt. Cheese and fruit were sometimes added.

The cena, the biggest meal of the day, was eaten after the day's work was finished. It consisted of three parts. The hors d'oeuvre (gustatio), of eggs, shellfish, dormice, and *olives, with honeyed wine (mulsum), was followed by the cena proper, comprising up to seven courses (fercula), with one chief item (caput cenae). This might be a whole roasted pig, accompanied by smaller, but substantial courses (e.g. lampreys, turbot, roast veal). The meal ended with dessert (mensae secundae), consisting of snails, nuts, shellfish, and fruit. Apicius, "On The Art Of Cookery"(Eng. trans. J. Edwards, 1984) describes the mules of the rich, to whom most of our information relates. the appearance of ostriches, peacocks, cranes, etc. on the tables of the rich was largely due to the search for novelty.]

No mention of butchers or temples.

More Peripheral Spam
11/4/2019 07:48:31 pm

Ugh !!

An Anonymous Nerd
11/4/2019 08:07:04 pm

[This is really what you are all hung up on?]

Maybe some of us are legitimately hung up on it but I suspect more folks addressing this are just looking for anything, however small, to criticize you with.

I'd actually suggest that you return to posting your episode-by-episode debunkings a day or so after the fact so that way you can include more sources and reflect and shit like that.

The whole "instant reaction" thing isn't really your thing. If it were then why not live blog it on Twitter as you're watching, then do the real article later?

-An Anonymous Nerd

Snails for Dessert
11/5/2019 05:52:55 am

NO. Just no.

"settlements" NO. Civilization means cities. It's in the word. "First, let's build a temple. Then, within a few months or a year, or longer, we'll finally have a place where we can cut up animals into bite-size pieces and then we'll have stuff to eat. But temple first!"

People didn't go to temples to get their meat. Why add that extra step to a simple process when nature is red in tooth and claw? That's idiocy.

Jews no longer do animal sacrifice, because.... NO TEMPLE! Yet they still eat meat. Which they steal from Palestinians.

Muslims still sacrifice animals on the odd occasion but generally they go to the non-Roman butcher shop and BUY MEAT.

Instead of researching the scholarly literature you might have tried using common sense.

Get Him to the Greek
11/5/2019 12:38:25 pm

Civilization means cities. Urban people don't have herds of cattle in their backyard to run out and slaughter when they want a pot roast. When they can even afford pot roast. They couldn't shoot a deer off their front porch for meat. If you can't go to the source in the ancient world you have two options: meat distributed after sacrifice at temples and/or meat sold at butcher shops after purchase from rural areas. BOTH were sources and at any given place and time in the ANCIENT WORLD which source was more important could vary. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Best to go with the scholarly literature because your common sense isn't cutting it here.

Kent
11/5/2019 01:44:56 pm

Wow, you really have no fucking clue.

Ever heard of Chicago?

"Hog Butcher to the World" mean anything to you?

Why is there a "Meatpacking District" in New York?

Why was there a Dodge City in Kansas?

"One hundred years ago, more meat was processed in Chicago than anywhere on the planet. The slaughterhouses got their livestock from Chicago's Union Stockyards: 475 acres of cattle, hogs and other animals shipped here from all over the country."

https://www.google.com/search?q=chicago+slaughterhouse&rlz=1CAHKDC_enUS830&oq=chicago+slaughterhouse&aqs=chrome..69i57.5873j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

"he cowboys looked like they belonged on a ranch, the tourists would have been more at home visiting a theme park, the animals and stench called to mind a farm, the conditions a gruesome battlefield. It’s difficult to imagine the Union Stock Yards if you never saw them: a square mile of livestock pens, slaughterhouses, packing and processing plants, and railroads just upstream from downtown Chicago that at their peak turned eighteen million animals into edible and usable products in a single year."

Not a single Temple in sight, pace Mayor Rahm Immanuel, but on his watch the slaughter continues. Cows are safe but Negroes would be well advised to take precautions.

Read a book once in a while. Start with U. Sinclair.

Jason is so wrong
11/5/2019 02:07:29 pm

"This is really what you are all hung up on? I reviewed the scholarly literature, and (as with so many things) the role of butchering varies by time and place. Early Greek settlements and early Rome didn't have modern-style butchers because meat was distributed from the temples. Bigger settlements (and especially later ones) where this wasn't practicable had butchers, but they either received meat from the temples or slaughtered animals following sacrificial rituals to appease the gods. The paragraph above has been amended to reflect this."

No one's hung up on this except you.

Yeah, sorry, but wrong is wrong, admit it and move on. "Settlements" is a weasel word. You don't want to say "cities" for some reason.

Nomadic people have no temples but they still get their share of meat.

You still have people building temples for animal slaughter, but not slaughtering animals until they built the temples. WHAT DID THEY EAT?

Get Him to the Greek
11/5/2019 02:45:43 pm

Trying to compare the Ancient world to Chicago doesn't change the fact that it is documented that temple sacrifice was an important source of meat supply in some instances in the ancient world. Maybe try reading some ancient history instead of extrapolating back from late 19th century stockyards and PACKING plants that were supplied by RAILROADS.

It's like you aren't even trying anymore.

Kent
11/5/2019 04:44:59 pm

I agree... it's unkind to tell you that you are wrong, so I shan't.

Bigus Dickus
11/5/2019 05:25:08 pm

Community, Conflict, and the Eucharist in Roman Coriinth.

Give that a read along with the bibliographic references in it that also discuss temple sacrifices as an important source of meat. Now run along little boy and let the adults talk. Come back after your nads have dropped.

Jim
11/5/2019 08:54:57 pm

"During the days of the early Republic the food was as simple and austere as the Roman people and their houses. Meat was not eaten often and the diet was generally based on vegetables and agricultural produce such as onions, peas and wheat. As Cato informs us, vegetables should be eaten with vinegar when raw and with Olive oil when cooked."

https://mariamilani.com/ancient_rome/ancient_roman_food.htm

Not Kent
11/3/2019 08:43:34 pm



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8-D-2KaPlgM

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KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/4/2019 05:53:31 pm

The central aspect of the Christian Religion (before things started going bananas after the Reformation) is the celebration of the Mass. This existed well before the appearance of the Gospels since the breaking of bread is mentioned in the earliest Christian literature. Communities of Christians gathered to partake of the Eucharist and witness those references to being "caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell".

This was the original mould where Christianity originated.

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Warren is antonius kentus
11/4/2019 10:34:41 pm

"Christianity" was exemplified by the Jerusalem Church, decimated in 70 AD
"Christianity" began before Jesus
"Christianity" originated even before Osiris
"Christianity" was corrupted and co-opted by Rome
Still today

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Kent
11/5/2019 05:13:15 am

I'd like to hear about this "earliest Christian literature" that predates the Gospels and presumably the Epistles but I've always been of the school of thought that if the bread is fixed don't break it.

All Christianity is Catholic or offshoots of Catholic.
The Gospels are written in Greek which was the lingua franca of the day.
Most Christians can't read Greek.
The ritual is in Latin or the local language.

I've got other fish to fry, Christianity is not my scene.

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KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/5/2019 05:46:33 am

The fables in the Gospels are not mentioned or corroborated anywhere during the first century, and when the earliest Church Fathers began quoting and referencing "Scripture" it was always to the Old Testament, not the Gospels,

Stuff found in the Gospels first began surfacing in the works by Justin Martyr, and look how quickly the Diatessaron shot into existence after that happened, The swift creation of the Diatessaron following the first mention of Gospel material by the Christians showed the Gospels did not exist before the Second Century.

Kent
11/5/2019 06:05:35 am

That's interesting but if would be even more interesting if you would cite by name and date three of those "earliest Church Fathers" from the first century AD. The Federalist Papers predate the Constitution. So what?

Know who else never quoted from the Gospels?

JESUS.

Should have seen that coming.

KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/5/2019 08:04:47 am

ANY OLD GERMAN PROTESTANT NINETEENTH CENTURY THEOLOGICAL ENCYCLOPEDIA WILL REPEAT THOSE FACTS.

JESUS ONLY EXISTS IN FAITH, NOT IN HISTORICAL FACT. THE HISTORICAL FACTS WERE INVENTED TO BUTTRESS THE FAITH.

RUDOLF BULTMANN AND GUNTER BORNKAMM SPENT THEIR LIVES PREACHING IT.BOTH SPENT THEIR LIVES LIVING IT.

Anthony is Kent Warren link
11/5/2019 11:32:54 am

THEY SOUND GERMAN SO I'M GOING TO NEED MORE INFORMATION ON THESE JEW KILLERS.

Correcting Kent Scales
11/5/2019 11:39:31 am

The Federalist Papers did not “predate” the Constitution, hence the name:

“The Federalist: A Collection of Essays, Written in Favour of the New Constitution, as Agreed upon by the Federal Convention, September 17, 1787.”

This is directed at you you stupid whore
11/5/2019 01:20:45 pm

That was published about a year after the Constitution was ratified, so no, dude, you just suck on infinitely many levels.

Let me rephrase. The Federalist Papers predated the ratification of the Constitution. Had the Constitution not been ratified it would not be the Constitution therefore it is correct to say the Federalist predated the Constitution. What a publisher calls a book is both in common practice and case law considered advertising and therefore objected to as not best evidence.

Cliff notes version: Suck it bitch.

Captain Obvious
11/5/2019 01:37:12 pm

Cliffnotes version: Kent was just made someone's bitch and is unhappy about it.

Answering yet another stupid whore who can't read
11/5/2019 01:53:58 pm

The Federalist was published to GET PEOPLE TO RATIFY THE CONSTITUTION. Therefore predating the Constitution. Its really that simple.

I pray to Nature's God that you're an elected official because I would hate to see some company afflicted with your stupidity.

You’re wrong about everything
11/5/2019 01:57:26 pm

THIS IS DIRECTED AT YOU YOU STUPID WHORE
11/5/2019 01:20:45 pm
That was published about a year after the Constitution was ratified.

“A compilation of these 77 essays and eight others was published in two volumes as The Federalist: A Collection of Essays, Written in Favour of the New Constitution, as Agreed upon by the Federal Convention, September 17, 1787 by publishing firm J. & A. McLean in March and May 1788.”

“On June 21, 1788, the constitution had been ratified by the minimum of nine states required under Article VII.”

You stupid disease-riddled bitch of an excuse for a human being
11/5/2019 02:27:30 pm

Jesus Christ Muhammad, I didn't sign up to be a special ed teacher.

You're talking about the publication in one cover of PREVIOUSLY PUBLISHED pamphlets.

Analogy: Get Mom or Dad to explain "analogy" to you. DO NOT let anyone tell it's got to do with your butt or your behind. Hunter Thompson's Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail 1972 is a collection of articles PREVIOUSLY PUBLISHED in Rolling Stone Magazine.

If you need to touch your butt for a minute to help you think, that's okay. Your next therapist will work on that issue.

Seriously, how stupid are you? Tell us your thoughts on Tale of Two Cities. When was that "published" in your disease-riddled bitch view? Alternatively I was just hoping you could give me some insight into the evolution of the market economy in the southern colonies or the capital-forming effects of military mobilization.

Kenty
11/5/2019 02:54:24 pm

Why would anyone go to a Temple to get meat when there is a Piggly Wiggly just down the street from me?

It’s a guilty pleasure
11/5/2019 02:56:30 pm

^ Latest Kent Scales meltdown in progress.

Riddle me this, you stupid disease riddled whore
11/5/2019 05:11:17 pm

"11/5/2019 01:20:45 pm
That was published about a year after the Constitution was ratified.

“A compilation of these 77 essays and eight others was published in two volumes as The Federalist: A Collection of Essays, Written in Favour of the New Constitution, as Agreed upon by the Federal Convention, September 17, 1787 by publishing firm J. & A. McLean in March and May 1788.”

“On June 21, 1788, the constitution had been ratified by the minimum of nine states required under Article VII.” "

Riddle me this, you stupid disease riddled whore:

Which of these dates is after June 21, 1788?

Is it September 17, 1787 or May 1788?

See you next time
11/5/2019 06:24:59 pm

Joe Kent Scales,

Your attempt at analogizing the appearance of the Gospels with the Federalist Papers and the US Constitution was a total failure and every statement you’ve made since then has been filled with basic errors and expressions of blind rage. It feels like I’m watching a Wile E. Coyote cartoon!

Ha ha ha!

AmericanNegro is Back in Da House
11/5/2019 07:28:20 pm

Who else could throw a royal shitfit of this caliber when proven wrong? Nobody!!!

Joe Scales
11/5/2019 08:27:16 pm

"You're talking about the publication in one cover of PREVIOUSLY PUBLISHED pamphlets."

You imbeciles need to read this and know how to take a loss. I mean... even though I wasn't involved, I somehow feel the need to celebrate. God you people are stupid.

Joe Scales Right on Time
11/5/2019 08:36:52 pm

As if on cue Joe AmericanNegro Scales shows up to demonstrate his share of ignorance about the actual terminiology used by the founding fathers. Give us a multi post spasm of rage meltdown under the name Joe Scales to complement your "friend."

Joe Scales
11/5/2019 09:24:11 pm

Yeah, right on time with the right call.
That you're an imbecile.

Hi again
11/6/2019 03:04:36 pm

(1) They weren’t “pamphlets,” they were individual essays published in newspapers shortly AFTER the convention agreed upon the text of the Constitution — the Constitution was drafted and existed before they were published in any form contrary to your patently stupid analogy; (2) The point is irrelevant because you originally claimed that the “Federalist Papers” (they weren’t actually called that until much later) “predated” the Constitution which by their very title they did not. You then dishonestly tried to change the argument to the fact that they had been previously published in newspapers a few months before, but still AFTER the Constitution was drafted and finalized; (3) In the midst of your idiocy, you declared that the compendium of articles was published a year after the ratification of the Constitution which a five year old could figure out was untrue in about five seconds.

Because you’re an insecure idiot, you couldn’t just admit that you were wrong, but instead you lied and humiliated yourself further. Congrats Kent Joe Scales, you’re conservative credentials are confirmed!

Kent
11/6/2019 03:46:49 pm

Many things are wrong, life is short and I'm sure your penis is long, but none of that is my affair. Reader, pass by.

The soil is moist and I like a full bush as God intended. Bow down, I will purify you.

Your friend
11/6/2019 04:54:48 pm

Thanks for not calling me a “STUPID DISEASE RIDDLED WHORE” again — no hard feelings bro!

KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/5/2019 12:37:43 pm

Show one scrap of New Testament papyrus dating from 1st century

Show one reference to the Gospels dating from 1st century

Reply
Kent
11/5/2019 01:27:58 pm

Yeah, no, lemme check my clipboard.

Just as I thought, I don't work for you bitch.

Reply
KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/5/2019 02:11:20 pm

Nothing dates from 1st century
All dates from the 2nd century
This was accepted by mainstream Biblical scholarship during the 19th century because that was where the material evidence pointed.

This has since been abandoned by fanciful Biblical scholars from the 20th century engaging in fanciful dogmatic nonsense not based upon any material evidence.

Kent
11/5/2019 03:02:41 pm

So I'm the bad guy for not showing something that can't be shown, bitch?

Kent
11/5/2019 04:48:26 pm

Everything in the Bible is a lie. If I haven't made that position clear I am saying it now: everything in the Bible is a lie.

Happy now Short Eyes?

KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/5/2019 04:29:49 pm

Kent does not apply that same reasoned critical thinking to the Bible as he does to other things,

Ho-Hum.

Reply
Kent
11/5/2019 04:50:30 pm

Everything in the Bible is a lie. If I haven't made that position clear I am saying it now: everything in the Bible is a lie.

Happy now Short Eyes?

Reply
KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/5/2019 05:06:06 pm

Depends

Oral Robert's Agnostic Nephew Bubba
11/5/2019 08:32:46 pm

Everything is a lie? Jerusalem is a lie? The fact that Lebanon was known for producing cedar wood is a lie? Even atheist scholars acknowledge some historical accuracies in the bible, fucktard.

Congratulations AmericanNegro you have now been proven wrong on every substantive issue that you tried to argue here. Give us one more meltdown for the night then call it a nite and live to show your ass another day.

Kent
11/5/2019 10:11:55 pm

I don't know what your racist comment is about, maybe it's some pedophile code that I'm not privy to, but the Bible does indeed correctly not assert that Lebanon is under the ocean. Happy now?

KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/5/2019 10:55:51 pm

Does Kent know anything ?

Please search that persons Blog messages for any occasional facts that may have crept in...

Kent
11/6/2019 07:43:58 am

Clearly Jesus's father Joseph was the beneficiary of alien GPS technology because he was able to go from Palestine to Egypt and back without taking Wrong Way Moses's 40 year detour through Saudi Arabia before invading and wading kneedeep in the blood of the slaughtered previous tenants..

Saying it's all lies is every bit as valid as saying it's all constellations. The Golden Calf is clearly Taurus.

Reply
Jim
11/6/2019 10:59:55 am

"Saying it's all lies is every bit as valid as saying it's all constellations."

In other words, what you say has no validity at all.

Rupert, Howie's Doll
11/6/2019 12:12:53 pm

Ah, Egypt and Palestine, those nonexistent places whose existence the bible lied about.

And if the bible is all lies then there was no Moses-led genocide for anti-Semites like AmericanNegro to whine about. No such thing as Egyptian Pharohs either.

Speaking of constellations, I guess there is no such thing as stars or the night sky since their existence is noted in the bible.

Fascinating lies in the bible about the Roman empire imposing censuses and taxation on its subjects. Glad to hear those Romans didn't really crucify people either.

We can always count on AmericanNegro to hang himself with gross overgeneralizations and shoddy analogies.

Welcome back big guy. And I don't mean "big" in any racist way, if you know what I mean.





Kent
11/6/2019 12:53:07 pm

Actually the census in the New Testament is not supported by Roman records or contemporaneous Roman accounts.

Your logic is interesting, but Mongoloid. It's equivalent to saying "Jews exist therefore The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is true".

Are you saying The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is true Focker?

KENT IS ANTHONY WARREN
11/6/2019 03:28:29 pm

Congratulations Kent, the story of Quirinius is another figment of the imagination in the Gospels.
Lots and lots more of them as well.

Jews Really didn't Drink Wine
11/6/2019 03:21:09 pm

Nice try, at least as far as trying to address the points that you haven't already conceded, but no.

The bible states that the Roman did a census and collected taxes. True even if the timelines are off.

Your logic on the Jewish thing is so assbackwards it doesn't even merit a response.

You have not done well in this entire run of posts. From what I have seen here maybe this weekend you should put aside a large block of time to get a start on:

Watching Highlander

Reading Community, Conflict, and Eucharist in Roman Corinth.

Reading the Federalist Papers

Reading the bible

Reading some primers on how to intelligently debate and use analogy properly

Looking into anger management counseling

Happy to help. God bless.

Reply
J
2/9/2020 07:05:10 am

Thank you for the name of tje "let them forget" liquid.....

Reply
Emily Pigeon
6/15/2020 07:12:49 am

Wait hold on, if the aliens can't consume salt, how can they drink blood?

Reply

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