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Review of Legends of the Lost S01E04: "The Trojan War: Myth or Truth?"

12/25/2018

46 Comments

 
Picture
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​Last week’s episode of Legends of the Lost ticked up to 526,000 viewers, probably on the strength of the show’s sensational topic: giants. While the numbers are still low, it’s rather sad to see how viewership spikes for extreme topics—exactly the reason that cable TV keeps pushing this crap. Tonight, however, we return to a more sedate a topic, one that I’m sure that the Travel Channel doesn’t expect to do great business, or else they wouldn’t schedule it for Christmas Day. Not to dash anyone’s expectations, but this was a dull and boring episode that presented very little information that hasn’t been known for decades, and it’s most extreme flights of fancy involve overstating the evidence for the historicity of Trojan War characters and events more definitively than the evidence allows.
​The question of the historicity of the Trojan War isn’t quite one of the world’s great mysteries, if only because the question is less about a yes-or-no answer and more about the degree to which the legend of the Trojan War reflects the known skirmishes between Mycenaean Greeks, Greek colonists on the coast of Asia Minor, the Hittites, and the people of the Troad. Rather than waste my time rewriting what I have written before, let me adapt a blog post I wrote in 2012 to discuss the myth encountered in this show that “everyone” believed the Trojan War to be a fiction and Troy to be a myth before Heinrich Schliemann excavated Troy in the 1870s.
 
The question of whether the Trojan War ever happened was not one that concerned the ancients or the peoples of the Middle Ages. It was simply taken as a given by Greeks, Romans, and Christians alike. The Greeks favored the Greek side, and the Romans were sentimental about the Trojans, as were medieval Christians as far away as Scandinavia, but everyone agreed that the war had really happened. That’s why, for example, the Trojan War served as the historical and mythical origin of the Romans in the Aeneid and the Norse gods in Snorri Sturlson’s Edda.
 
Troy was occupied from 3000 BCE down to Homeric times, and the ancients had no doubt about its existence because it was still in existence. The site ceased to be occupied sometime after Homer likely composed, probably around 700 BCE. The Romans later built a new city atop the abandoned ruins, Troy having ceded its ancient name, Ilion, to the nearby Roman city of New Ilium. The claim that Troy was nothing but a myth was actually a modern invention, one generated by early modern critical history when early modern scholars were not able to find a physical site to pin to Homer’s poems, which were increasingly seen as fictional rather than historical. But the fact that the Trojan War had no historical support should not have translated into doubts about Troy’s physical existence since every other pre-Classical Greek epic was tied to a specific, and known, city, such as Corinth, Athens, Mycenae, Thebes, and Tiryns (said to be built by Cyclopes!).
 
Today, thanks largely to Martin Nilsson, we know that the ancient Greeks consistently associated mythic tales—fictional though they be—with actual geographic locations from the Mycenaean past, creating elaborate and interlocking (if fictional) histories for these cities. Atlantis fails this test because it plays no role in any mythic cycle and is never mentioned outside Plato and those dependent upon his text. Bronze Age cities were celebrated in epic poetry; Troy was one of these cities, but Atlantis was not.

Now, against this is the fact that a Scot, Charles Maclaren, actually did deduce the location of Troy in 1822, largely from the Homeric description. He even picked out the exact hill, called Hissarlik, where Calvert and Schliemann later excavated.

But he could do this only because Troy, like Athens, Mycenae, Pergamum, and other ancient sites, was and had always been real. It was only early modern scholars who had invented the fable that Troy was entirely fictional in a surfeit of skeptical zeal.
 
The story that Schliemann used Homer as a map to find Troy is a myth Schliemann himself was instrumental in creating. Instead, Schliemann, attempting to find Troy, searched many sites and turned up nothing (proving Homer’s directions weren’t that good) before another man, Frank Calvert, contacted him to tell him he had discovered Troy on his family’s land in Turkey. Calvert had done preliminary excavations in 1865 and was convinced the Bronze Age city of Troy buried beneath the Hellenistic and Archaic layers. Schliemann arrived in 1868, and immediately doubted the site was Homer’s Troy. Calvert eventually convinced him, and Schliemann took over the excavations in 1871. When he reported the results in 1875, he tried to bolster the credibility of his find by carefully relating it to Homer.
 
Today, scholars generally believe Troy VIIa to be the one described in Homer, and additional evidence from Hittite records referencing Homeric names like Wilusa (Ilion) and the name of Alaksandu (Alexander) suggest that the Homeric accounts reflect actual Bronze Age places and possibly events.
 
The question left to answer, and which archaeology and history are not yet able to demonstrate, is whether a single massive Trojan War between a coalition of Greeks and the Trojans occurred as described in myth. Many historians prefer to suggest that the Homeric story is a mythic reflection of a long series of battles and skirmishes during the Bronze Age Collapse of the early twelfth century BCE, but some argue for a larger and more contained war.
 
Megan Fox brushes these questions aside and simply claims that “we’ve been told” that Homer’s Iliad is simply the greatest piece of fiction ever written. She confidently claims that there are “historical facts” embedded in the story. She acts as though this were a revelation, but the existence of the wanax and the famous boar’s tusk helmet in Mycenaean contexts as well as in the Iliad shows that the Iliad drew on fragments of Bronze Age culture. Fox is basically and haphazardly retracing the footsteps of Martin Nilsson, whose Mycenaean Origins of Greek Mythology—published eight decades ago—demonstrated to Classical scholars that the Greek myths known from Archaic, Classical, and Hellenistic times embed genuine fragments (and mostly just fragments) of Bronze Age culture. I can’t envision a world where she knows that this path has been trod before.
 
Fox visits the ruins of Troy and expresses shock that the Greeks accurately reported the geography of a city that was still in existence down to Roman times. She meets with archaeologist Eric Cline to explore Hittite archives and their references to Troy, the Achaeans (Greeks), and the conflicts between them. The Turkish government gave Fox special permission to see one of the Hittite tablets, which apparently is not available to anyone outside of Turkish academia, according to the show, but Fox goes a bit beyond the evidence in claiming that the King Alaksandu of the Hittite records was the Prince Alexander (Paris) of Homer. The existence of the same name speaks to both texts referring to the same culture, but there is no evidence that the same man was meant in both cases.
 
In the back half of the show, Fox continues her rather boring tour of Trojan War locations, including the spot traditionally identified as Achilles’ tomb, Beşiktepe. It’s not his tomb, though the Ancients celebrated the mound as though it were, much like the way Christians marked places in Jerusalem as sites of Christ’s stations of the cross, though several cannot be.  
 
Fox sees a Luwian seal that bears the name of Troy, though it’s worth noting that the existence of a messenger’s seal does not translate to evidence of the Homeric Trojan War, despite the show’s insistence otherwise. After a commercial, the argument is restated in a more complex way, arguing that Troy was part of the alleged Luwian confederacy and therefore the Trojan War was a “world war” between the Luwians and the Mycenaean Greeks. This leads Fox to embrace the overstated hypothesis of “World War Zero” forwarded by the Eberhard Zangger and his team of Luwian extremists. I wrote about the problems with his views back in 2016. These include the acceptance of medieval evidence and a greatly overstated case for the Luwians as a unified culture. I should have known that Fox would stumble across them. It’s just not possible for her to explore even a straightforward topic without bringing something weird.
 
As the show ends, Fox receives the results of a survey the show undertook to hunt for Achilles’ grave. She suggests that a shelf-like structure in one burial mound indicates a Mycenaean beehive tomb but concedes that “anybody” could be in the tomb. She remains unshaken in her belief that Achilles really existed. Weirdly, she talks about “evidence” that Homer knew about real events, but declines to actually explore real evidence, such as the boar’s tusk helmet and the geographic evidence outline by Nilsson, that actually would strengthen her case for the accuracy of Homer.
 
She finishes by stating that the reality of the Trojan War means that we are justified in asking which other myths that “we’ve written off as fiction” are actually true. And so the show ends with a whimper instead of a bang and slinks off into the darkness with a logical fallacy and a bunch of unstated implications about grander and more outrageous hypotheses that neither Fox nor the Travel Channel intend to spend the time or the money to prove but hope you will believe anyway, as long as they remain profitable. 
46 Comments
Accumulated Wisdom
12/25/2018 11:51:47 pm

The Trojan War is another example of possible real life events with an Astronomy coating.

Achilles is shot with an arrow in his heal...the same place another mythic figure is bitten by a snake.

The stories change...The underlying meaning doesn't.

Reply
Rational Man
12/25/2018 11:54:00 pm

There is no underlying astronomical meaning. You remind me of the number crunchers who can see numbers and cyphers everywhere. In your case, it's astronomy.

Reply
Accumulated Wisdom
12/26/2018 12:38:10 am

Santa Claus- 12 Elves
Hercules- 12 Labors
Jesus- 12 Apostles
Sun- 12 Constellations

Noah and his circle of animals...

I see the Astronomy because it is simply there.

Happy New Year!

American Cool "Disco" Dan
12/26/2018 06:30:27 am

Priceless Defender has one strong point, he's good at saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

12 pence to one shilling, so effing what? In Canadian football, 12 is the maximum number of players that can be on the field of play for each team at any time. So effing what? Twelve Monkeys, the Dirty Dozen, so effing what? Twelve Steps, so effing what?

Sadly he doesn't understand the difference between a transit and an eclipse.

This too will pass, joining Phil Goetsch and others on the assheap of history.

HUGH'S POO..... I'm back!
12/26/2018 10:22:00 pm

I'm back toileting fans and I am pleased to inform you that i on mine and my loyal companion pee pee's journeys, recently babbed on this very site!

oooooh aaaaahhhhh... I secretly curled out a couple of cyclopean logs that would have made Calvert and his roughage struggled,1860's diet, pile aggravated ring proud, whilst modern Troy hunting fans blissfully passed by my hidey-bog.hole.

I bet that trench is a joy for them when the digs resume!

HINT**Fox suggest that a '' shelf-like structure in one burial mound indicates a Mycenaean beehive tomb but concedes that........' “
.....It's an ancient drop em-plop-and go place! (Obviously Duh!)

I share this ancient wisdom with you as my Xmas gift upon my much anticipated return.

That's all for now. Merry stoolmass and a crapping New Year.

Earth energies, Alignments, Crystal skulls etc etc..

Ps. next time, my secret shit in the oak island staff toilets UNFLUSHED! Wow. wow did their eyes water!

Reply
Rational Man
12/26/2018 12:45:13 am

Stories like the sacking of Troy are just that -- stories.
Most of the people in the ancient world were illiterate and historical accounts were depicted mythologically.
Herodotus, Homer and Virgil were interesting. But should not go any further than that.

Reply
Accumulated Wisdom
12/26/2018 12:58:51 am

EXACTLY! This is why the ability to predict, and time an eclipse gave the group with said knowledge, ABSOLUTE POWER.

Didn't Alexander use an eclipse to win a battle?

Reply
Rational Man
12/26/2018 01:34:49 am

You overlook the symbolical meaning of eclipse within the historical context. It's not what YOU think it means.

Accumulated Wisdom
12/26/2018 01:56:04 am

It depends upon which predicted eclipse is being timed.

Mercury passing in front of the Sun
Venus passing in front of the Sun
Moon passing in front of the Sun
Earth passing between Sun and Moon

The angles between the Solstices of any given location gives Latitude.
Timing an eclipse from two locations gives Longitude.
Controlling the line of Latitude marked by a 60 degree angle between the Solstices, gives you the ability to make a square and apply Geometry to the sphere.

RATIONAL MAN
12/26/2018 02:35:20 am

Your explanation must be correct because of the discovery of the Antikythera mechanism. Everybody based mythological explanations of ancient historical events based on that.

Accumulated Wisdom
12/27/2018 09:07:15 am

The special line of latitude I'm referring, runs right through the Temple Mount.

Accumulated Wisdom
12/26/2018 03:07:09 am

Rational Man,

I am not saying every story has an Astronomy component, but, the Trojan War certainly does. Most all of our Myths originate in the stars. Surprisingly, some still contain elements of what we now call Science.

One biblical story in particular, has nothing to do with Astronomy. Story starts with biblical persona in black darkness. After going through a series of color changes and physical abuse, this personal reaches the "pure white light of the Christ Spirit" and is immediately submerged in water(baptized) to "Solidify the Transmutation of Consciousness".
Now watch Master Massamune fashion iron ore into a stainless steel sword. Ore starts off black. Goes through same color changes and abuse. The moment the ore becomes white hot, giving off a white glow, he dunks it into water to solidify the transmutation of metal. AKA...Baptism

My hair stood on end when, I came to this realization.

My life cycle will end soon. Need to kindle the Light before I leave.

Reply
Rational Man
12/26/2018 04:06:24 am

May the Force be with you

Reply
An Over-Educated Grunt
12/26/2018 11:21:17 am

All other things aside, your metallurgy is terrible, and iron alloys remain dull to dark at room temperature until the surfaces oxides are polished away even after forging. I think that's a fitting description of you so far.

Reply
Accumulated Wisdom
12/27/2018 08:58:46 am

AOEG-

I misspoke. I should have never used the word "stainless". Just the steel making process. I admittedly left out several details. I was trying to prove s point, not write an opus.

At the end of the process I described, the biblical figure is said to be "Incorruptible" and turned into the "Philosopher's Stone".

T. Franke link
12/26/2018 06:03:32 pm

The ancient Greeks would have rejected the idea that the Trojan War is a myth. Only what Homer made of it partly was considered more or less a myth. This nonsensical playing with the term "myth" really annoys me. IMHO the really fascinating thing is, that the ancient Greeks considered stories not a myth, which we moderns tend to see as myths.

While the knowledge about Mycenaean palaces had a continuous tradition in ancient Greece, this is not true for Atlantis, if it existed. Yet we have to consider the fact that the ancient Greeks had no idea at all about the reason why the Mycenaean world had fallen.

The only explanation given in Greek literature are floods (caused by rain, by the way). This idea is taken over by Plato as a fact, whereas we moderns know that this is not true, or at least no sufficient explanation for the end of the Bronze Age. (Plato takes over some Mycenaean tradition, as it seems, concerning his idea of primeval Athens.)

We also have to face the fact that e.g. Herodotus, when in Egypt, gets to know a lot about history, yet he does not get to know anything about the Sea Peoples, and the end of the Bronze Age (although these are real events). The only information given to him is that in Egypt allegedly nothing ever changes: No drought and no flooding, which in turn means that such things had happened in other lands, according to the Egyptians. Which is just the same as the Greek tradition, only in negative words.

Conclusion:

The Atlantis story is surely no Greek tradition (and not a myth, even if 100% invented). It may be an Egyptian tradition as claimed by Plato. But we do not know, for now. The discussion about the end of the Bronze Age is still unsettled, as well as the discussion about the place of origin of the Sea Peoples movement.

What is sure from the historical context is that the 9000 years of Atlantis are meant as a point in time after the founding of Egypt in 3000 BC, be it invented or not.

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Joe Scales
12/26/2018 08:21:02 pm

Atlantis, eh?
Great. Just great...

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Trojan War
12/26/2018 06:07:52 pm

The Trojan War was a historical event described in mythological terms.

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An Anonymous Nerd
12/26/2018 07:32:21 pm

"Astronomy" component. But most of what's being described by "Accumulated Wisdom" is closer to Astrology than to Astronomy.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/astronomy

Not only does this page have the definition of Astronomy but it also has a little writeup on the difference between Astronomy and Astrology.

We need to call out such people when they try to borrow the label "Astronomy." We wouldn't allow a Fundamentalist Christian to describe the Bible as "Physics."

Further, let's consider some of what he's said.

[Hercules- 12 Labors]

As I recall it wasn't 12 originally but some got added on for various reasons. Does the original number have meaning or the number we ended up at or both or neither? Why not consult the culture the story came from rather than try to make up some kind of universal truth about this number?

[Sun- 12 Constellations]

There are a lot more than 12 recognized constellations and, oh, let us not forget the fact that not every culture has the same number of constellations or the same constellations.

[Santa Claus- 12 Elves]

Huh? Never heard this one. Haven't encountered it in any books and Google is of no help either. Maybe he or she read it in some book that I haven't read. Maybe there's some story.

Sure are a lot of stories about the number 12, though. Sure are.

But, also 7, and multiples thereof. (7 Dwarves for example.) Oh, and 2. (TWO basic commandments according to Jesus in TWO of the Gospels. See  Mark 12:28-31 and  Matthew 22:35-40. Hero twins in many American Indian mythologies.) Oh, also three. There was an "Ancient Aliens" episode about that one.

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/review-of-ancient-aliens-s06e01-the-power-of-three

None of this really means anything. It's really important to remember that. And, also, that sometimes even the fact patterns used to suggest they mean something also have nothing to them. Pretending otherwise....Well, there's a distinct lack of rationalism in Western society these days and it's not having any good impact.

-An Anonymous Nerd

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Anonymouse
12/27/2018 01:44:04 am

You can’t really complain, though, because the show is honest about itself. They are lost, they come up with legends. If they changed it to Myths of the Misguided I bet you’d be fine with that.

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William Fitzgerald
12/27/2018 01:44:47 am

Now for something to completely annoying: granted, the story of Atlantis is an allegory made up by Plato to prove a point; however, is it possible that Plato incorporated real world elements into his allegory? For example, real places and real historical events that Plato was aware of, even if only by rumor or by his time legend, that he found useful and interesting enough to seed his story. The alternative is that Plato made everything up, tabula rasa. Certainty possible, he was brilliant and creative. But, is it not also possible that he tapped into the same vein that Greeks used to formulate their myths incorporating real world elements? Now, I understand that to give such conjecture legs, there would have to be some sort of contemporary evidence indicating the existence of a historical place or event that Plato could have been aware of, and that is similar enough to his story of Atlantis. I am not aware of anything, but that doesn't mean the conjecture is outright wrong either; I think it is quite reasonable.

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Rational Man
12/27/2018 07:19:16 am

"I think it is quite reasonable"

Best to steer well clear of conjectures because any mainstream scholar worth their salt state that historical vacuums are to be avoided like the plague.

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William Fitzgerald
12/27/2018 10:07:40 am

Wise advise. But, I don't have to defend my scholarly reputation (especially on a blog). And besides, if you don't push the boundaries nothing new will be learned except more of the same.

As an aside you got me thinking about vacuums. Which is a fascinating subject. Seemingly impossible to perfect. Pick your vacuum, pick you poison. But lets say a ground state vacuum (possibly the closest we can achieve out of the other means of defining a "vacuum" anyways): as we annihilate beyond the asymptotic state a sort of virtual reality, or rather a sub-reality, occurs. Now the ground state is not actually zero, but is constant and therefore reaching it would create a perfect vacuum relative to everywhere (don't ask what happens if it is breached). However, this virtual reality, while not stable, is nevertheless persistent preventing an energy state at the ground level and therefore a perfect vacuum.

So as to your concern about "historical vacuums," information should not (probably) be destroyed. Now, we may never have the capacity to recover all information; an interesting implication, but logical. Nonetheless, down on earth, we can probably achieve some conclusion even within a "vacuum"; though, the further back the less we have to work with.

The good news is as implied (I assume "historical" was narrowly defined) Plato did live within history and therefore we may have contemporary sources. What I am interested in specifically, is whether Plato could have known about the Minoans and the Thera eruption. Of course he could have known and I am not an expert on Plato to determine if he did know. But, were there sources Plato had access to that described the Minoans and Thera eruption (or at least something approximating what we understand of the Minoans even if just myths and legends) that could have inspired Plato. (I am not stuck on the Minoans necessarily, but they seem a pretty good source of inspiration vis-a-vis Atlantis; nor am I fixated on Plato being inspired by any real world even either, but I am asking the question).

Rational Man
12/27/2018 10:54:56 am

Scholarly reputation amounts to nothing if everything is only based on conjecture, that could be 100% wrong.

Uncle Ron
12/27/2018 11:23:16 am

WF-
Off topic, but an interesting query relative to your remarks: Is it actually possible for any human to imagine something which has absolutely zero pre-existence in his mind; we might call it a "ground state" thought? Or is every thought, inspiration, and terror an extrapolation of something previously experienced/known, regardless of how distant or vaporous?


T. Franke link
12/27/2018 02:07:57 pm

William,

surely, Plato relied on a lot of real-world aspects which have been clearly identified by many scholars -- yet, not consistently. Not all of them are accepted, or taken into account by some scholars. Some scholars say that Plato really meant what he said with these aspects. Others say that Plato only put forward them in order to create a perfect deception.

Just as a striking example Theodor Gomperz: He thought that Plato really believed in his primeval Athens (not Atlantis), because Plato put forward so many hints to the prehistory of Athens, involved with many general arguments about history taken seriously in other texts, and by other authors (e.g. his disciple Aristotle). Concerning Atlantis, Gomperz assumes more invention (yet leaves open the possibility for reality even here).
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis_gomperz.htm

Find other scholars with similarly ideas on the same page.

Concerning assumptions and likelihood: This is of course VERY scientific. Because if you do not have clear evidence, you only can go forward on this path. And for most things about ancient history, you have no clear evidence. Making an argument for the (high) likelihood of an assumption is bread and butter business in ancient history.

(And it is Plato himself who introduces the theory for this way of reasoning by his concept of an "eikos mythos", presented in the Timaeus. Yes: He who does not understand Plato and his philosophy will not be able to find Atlantis.)

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Rational Man
12/27/2018 02:31:35 pm

Again, hypothetical conjecture
And only pseudohistorians commit themselves to making final definitive commitments prior to getting the facts.

T. Franke link
12/27/2018 03:57:44 pm

Rational Man,

yes, "only pseudohistorians commit themselves to making final definitive commitments prior to getting the facts", absolutely true.

But discussing what is very likely and what is very unlikely is neither making "final definitive" commitments, nor is it pseudohistory.

And waiting until the facts are 100% clear ... means that we can forget 90% of history writing, if not 100%.

By the way, for what do scientists need the rule of Occam's razor, if only statements are allowed which are 100% clear? Occam's razor is a rule needed only in questions which are not 100% clear.

Rational Man
12/27/2018 05:23:52 pm

Here is a 100% fact about Atlantis.
Nobody before Plato mentioned Atlantis.
The destruction of Atlantis happened 9,000 years before the birth of Critias - that's an awful long time to stay silent about something before committing it to writing - without prior references.

T. Franke link
12/28/2018 08:39:07 am

Rational Man,

I am very sorry but there really are big problems with your "facts".

a) "Nobody before Plato mentioned Atlantis."

Are you really sure? Because, "Atlantis" is not the name of the thing. Nobody knows, whether Plato talked of a known civilization, or not. Only one thing is a fact: So far nobody could identify (!) any other mentioning of Atlantis before Plato. And nobody used the term "Atlantis" (!) for depicting a country. But that nobody wrote about Atlantis before Plato .... is not a fact. This is an assumption, only. Though maybe an assumption with a not-so-bad likelihood to be true.

b) "The destruction of Atlantis happened 9,000 years before the birth of Critias"

I wouldn't be so sure ... because beginning with Herodotus, all ancient Greek authors considered Egypt to be 11,000+ years old. But is Egypt in fact 11,000+ years old? Of course not. There were all wrong! And the same observation is valid for the Atlantis story, allegedly derived from Egypt. That Plato wrote of 9,000 years does not mean that it necessarily is 9,000 years. To the contrary. It is likely (only likely!) that Plato's date has to be interpreted in the same way as Herodotus' date: As a mistake, not as an invention.

c) "The destruction of Atlantis happened 9,000 years before the birth of Critias"

I really wonder why you start counting with the "birth of Critias"? You really miss the facts, here.

d) "9,000 years ... that's an awful long time to stay silent about something before committing it to writing - without prior references."

Errr, wrong again. Plato clearly points out that he relies on prior references which had put the story into writing right from the beginning! Especially the Egyptians had written down the story, thus bridging the vast time from the event until Solon's visit in Egypt. (Plato assumes that Egypt was attacked by Atlantis, and that the Egyptrians wrote down the story, then.)

Conclusion:

If I see it correctly, you made a lot of mistakes in a small passage of which you said that it all were "facts".

And it is a fact that you carefully avoided to respond to the arguments presented in my previous posting. Now, is it a fact that you agree that discussing likelihoods is an important part of science, especially when exploring ancient history? I dare to say, that it is at least likely, because you did not argue against it :-)

An Anonymous Nerd
12/28/2018 07:37:48 am

Regarding the source material for Atlantis: It's possible it had none, it's possible it had some. Mr. Colavito tends to fall into the "totally made up" category, various books and documentaries have speculated about source material.

Problem is: it's only rarely that the question's phrased as "let's find source material for this story." Too often it's "let's find the real Atlantis." And if, by Atlantis, folks means as it is in the popular imagination, or anything close to that (any hyper-diffusionist, highly-advanced ancient culture that vanished for some reason), then the answer is: It didn't.

And it gets annoying to see a false question posed repeatedly, especially when the real question about the source material for and thinking behind a story is as-awesome a question as anything the Fringe can invent.

-An Anonymous Nerd

Reply
Rational Man
12/28/2018 09:05:50 am

The Atlantis buffs keep overlooking the fact that the "history" is mythological, with Atlantis belonging to Poseidon, and the substance of the narrative is cradled within Plato's concept of The Republic,

T. Franke link
12/28/2018 09:45:28 am

Rational man,

the Atlantis story is not more "mythical" than the real history in the eyes of the ancient Greeks. For example, there is a foundation myth of Athens, the city of goddess Athena.

Is Athens only a myth? Not really, or?

The substance of the narrative about primeval Athens (and Atlantis) is indeed cradled within Plato's concept of the Republic.

But what does this mean?

Plato had a philosophical concept about repeated development and destruction of civilization, including the ideal state as the peak of the development. This is what Plato really believed, and the story of primeval Athens and Atlantis is just a historical example within this framework of beliefs.

Imagine a scientist making a prediction derived from his theory, and then ... inventing a case according to his prediction, in order to "prove" his theory correct. Because, this would be the point of the story, if Plato invented it all. Do you really think Plato was a heinous character feigning evidence for his political-historical theories? All the talk about truth, virtue, etc. in his dialogues only deceptions of an evil man? The whole life of Plato one big single lie? If you think so, please say it. And please, give us some arguments, why you think so.

William Fitzgerald
12/27/2018 05:40:05 pm

UNCLE RON,
It's an incredibly interesting question. Plato might assume all thoughts are ultimately derived from pre-existing perfect forms (I do know a little Plato). I don't buy this formulation. But still, or brains and everything we know and see is a product and wholly contained within the Universe. And so to truly know everything in the Universe, it would seemingly require us to be external to it. (This of course doesn't account for the soul and its implications, but that is a whole nother topic and probably unprovable at this point; you either have faith or you don't). Is there a shortcut to fully understanding the Universe without knowing everything? That's the hope of humanity I suppose: will we reach a point of knowledge where we cannot never move beyond, because of our own biological limitations and the nature of our place in the Universe, or will we breakthrough. Going back to Plato, he may have intimated the answer in his understanding that the Universe is written in numbers (or coded to use a modern term). And indeed we can use statistical and other mathematical tools to discover answers without nessecarily having to know (or count) everything. So, it took a Platonic understanding coupled with an Aristotelian approach to get where we are today (as well as a few giants in between). Computers will continue to help. But, there is still the possibility we will hit a wall in our ability to fully understand the Universe and everything in it; and we may not know until we hit it ( or worse yet, we may hit it irrevocably, but something else can move beyond).

Reply
Rational Man
12/27/2018 06:24:23 pm

"might"

"seemingly"

"may have"

"we may not know until we hit it"

People just love wallowing in mystification.
And not necessarily on Wolter's or Hancock's Blogs

Reply
William Fitzgerald
12/27/2018 10:51:01 pm

You want a hard fact: we cannot know the future. We can at best, imperfectly understand the processes of nature and therefore model what lays ahead; but, the model is never 100% accurate. Newton modeled the Universe pretty well; but, he was still imprecise. Einstein got closer, but his model does not fit together with what we find at the atomic level. And in this quantum sphere, imprecision is the name of the game, where even the past may not be fixed. (I argue that the 2nd law holds and the past cannot be changed by future or present events-but, I may be wrong). You can call speculating on solutions to known-unknown variables "mystification," I would call it science: studying a known phenomenon (caused by unknown mechanisms), hypothesizing a model to explain the phenomenon, testing the model (usually in a iterative process); and then if the model (likely after revision) succeeds, publish the findings so others may repeat the tests; and if the solution is found repeatable and coherent: you have a theory (sometime called a law).

On the other hand speculating on the unknown-unknowns is called fantasy; which can parallel reality, but is just in the end made up. Speculating in either of the realms of fantasy or science is not bad, so long as you don't understand fantasy as real; nor is mixing fantasy and science, so long as you understand the result is still fantasy.

But, when I qualify statements (or as you may call weasel-words), I am not trying bluff my way through an argument, but because any scientific theory (or any academic conclusions for that matter) are also subject to uncertainty and therefore modification I am actually being precise (counter-intuitively as the case may be).

For example, if I tell you with absolute certainty: you cannot walk through a solid wall. In most circumstances this statement doesn't need to be qualified. And to do so would be entering the world of fantasy as you are speculating on a mechanism (magic or whatever) to enable you to do so, that is unknown to exist. However, there is in fact a quantum mechanical property that allows particles to do just that. And since we are made of particles is it then not possible for us to then walk through walls? Well, no (probably); I use a caveat only because we don't really understand yet how this real world phenomenon actually works (and why what works in the quantum world doesn't seem to apply on a larger scales); but, also because quantum mechanics is really a study of probabilities and therefore our ability to walk through walls is statically improvable, but not quite 100% impossible.

So, if we are having conversation about scientific possibilities (or any subject really with a lot of unknown variables) caveats may be called for. If we are having a mundane conversation predicated on our normal day-to-day experiences then we can be less precise and make absolute statements, like "I'll see you tomorrow" with all the caveats of normal experiences implied and not have to condition it on "only if you, or I, or the earth, or the sun, or the Universe, or god doesn't die first."

Rational Man
12/28/2018 01:26:47 am

Boring.

T. Franke link
12/28/2018 09:05:35 am

Rational Man,

it is your duty as a virtuous member of the human society to say "thank you", if somebody explains an important idea to you. Your reply "Boring" bears witness to a lazy brain activity, and witness to unthankfulness. But laziness and unthankfulness are no virtues.

... and you should stop calling yourself "rational" man. You seem to be rather an anti-rational man.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
12/28/2018 10:45:47 am

It's always nice and sooo helpful to be reminded of one's obligations. Would you like a slice of Czechoslavakia with that?

Uncle Ron
12/28/2018 03:17:06 pm

The real problem with the trolls on this (and every) blog is that those unfamiliar with the nuances of serious contributors' posts may mistakenly believe that the trolls' remarks are appropriate responses to the (any) discussion; that casting doubt on every statement or supposition is the same as having a rational discussion of the topic. If a poster assumes that his readers are familiar with certain background information, and omits spelling it out like a dissertation, the trolls pick his comments apart like vultures. If he spells everything out in sufficient specificity that the uninitiated can follow his argument the trolls say "boring" as if that is somehow a valid criticism of the remarks. (If you want boring, try reading a real academic dissertation.)
Unanswered questions and speculation are the beginning of every hypotheses, without which nothing ever would be learned. They are the “known unknowns” and are neither stupid nor pointless. e.g. "Hey guys, look at that cute baby tiger! I wonder if I can pick it up." Hypothesis: Baby tigers are friendly. Experiment: This "might" be fun. Baby tigers are "seemingly" harmless. We "may have" overlooked something, but, "we may not know until we" do it. Let's see what happens. Conclusion: Mother tigers are quite protective.
Tigers 1 - Hominins 0.
My original remarks concerned the discussion of whether Plato created Atlantis "out of whole cloth" or were there bits and pieces of legend/myth on which he based it. I questioned, from a philosophical standpoint, whether it is even possible to create something out of whole cloth. (This is not about Atlantis, per.se.) My feeling is that there is some germ of an idea behind every myth and monster, and it is not unreasonable to search for it, so long as we are willing to accept, if logic ultimately demands it, that the thing that grew from that germ is only the fruit of a fertile imagination. (And yes, that is just a “feeling” because I don’t know how to answer the question at its most fundamental level. Perhaps, for once, one of you trolls who want us to believe that you are so superior that the only possible response to comments posted here is your vulgar and vapid dismissals could respond with some respectful and insightful comments regarding this question. Otherwise we will be forced to conclude that you are not nearly as smart as you think you are.












T. Franke link
12/28/2018 04:26:27 pm

Agreed, Uncle Ron.

Cite: "I questioned, from a philosophical standpoint, whether it is even possible to create something out of whole cloth. (This is not about Atlantis, per.se.) "

I would say, that human beings can do this, but only in small parts and gradually. So, human beings start with a basis already given, or more than one basis, and then human beings weave these together into one new fictional piece (which in itself could be considered something new: the weaving pattern), and then some really new content can be added. But only in tiny portions.

Inventing a whole story completely out of thin air is rather not likely, even not possible I would say. Usually our brains operate with given and known objects and concepts, always with the same vocabulary. Something really new required even a new language. A completely new story would provide to many new words, which makes it difficult to understand it.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
12/28/2018 07:06:29 pm

This "people can't make up new stuff" idea runs afoul of the same logical fallacy as the "we needed ancient aliens to teach us how to pile up rocks" idea.

To spell it out for those of you in Rio Linda, who taught the ancient aliens how to pile up rocks? Infinite regress.

The need for new words on the other hand is not a fallacy. "Quark" while lifted from Joyce, could just as easily have been "quisk".

William Fitzgerald
12/28/2018 08:01:56 pm

"There is nothing new under the sun."
Seems more like a challenge then accepted wisdom, especally in this day in age. Outside of the big questions of the Universe and maybe even ourselves, can we imagine something completely outside the bounds of previous human experience or find something new under under the sun? I think the short answer is yes, but as T. Franke claimed it is only done in small parts and gradually; and think this is about right on the whole. I would add a couple of points: first it is a matterter of degree, for example if we discover a new species of lizard then we may have found something new (although proving no other human saw it first is nearly impossible, but the first to scientificly classify it is easier i.e degree of what constitutes discovery); on the other hand the lizard is still essentially a lizard, and we have seen many of those, so it is a matter of degrees (degree of type). Likewise, occasionally someone will discover something so radically new it changes the world, Einstein for example (although he started off with a simple question about light). The second point, is the funny thing about memory (nonetheless genetic memory), we may not consciously remember everything we've experienced or learned, therefore if we create omething "new" how new is it really. Today it maybe easier to figure out, with data aggregation, storage, and search ability; but, still what you think you are fantasizing about or discovering may have already been essentially brought forth and you are merely rediscovering (or marginally adding to it by a small degree). Nontheless, I do believe we are capable of imagining and discoverering ideas and things completely new; although usually small in the scheme of things but, ever so rarely we do create or find something brand new that is very significant (however you want to define significant).

Reply
Accumulated Wisdom
1/6/2019 06:35:30 pm

I LOVE these Atlantis debates. They take me back to a much simpler time. Sitting in our Public Library listening to two phds argue the validity of Atlantis. The silent man came over to me and laid down a copy of "Voyage to Atlantis" by James W Mavor jr. The photo of the author on the back cover, shows him standing between carved representations of two of the fixed signs of the zodiac on Messa Vouno. The Lion and the Eagle.

I say a silent man because, he never spoke a word to me. He was like Harpo Marx, Magician Teller, or Silent Bob. He just smiled a lot. Later on in life, I found out he was a famous author.

According to Doc, "Atlantis is Thera. The inhabitants came from the north. Likely Northern Spain, or further North." He also mentioned Plato's 9,000 years was actually 900 years. I've heard various parts of his arguments from other people over the years.

NOT BORING!!!

Please keep up the debates. I lean towards the Thera explanation.

Reply
American Cool "Disco" Dan
1/6/2019 07:24:11 pm

"The Eagle" is not a sign of the Zodiac you crazy motherfucker broadcasting from the day ward.

Is there NOTHING that you can't fuck up?

Sad.

Reply
Accumulated Wisdom
1/7/2019 03:28:10 pm

At the age of 7, this book was my first glimpse of the 🦁 Lion, and the 🦅 Eagle.

Once, I figure out how to explain it, without unintentionally plagarizing someone, or violating copyright laws, I will. Unless the resident expert wishes to do so first. There is more than one Zodiac.

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          • W. Scott-Elliot >
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      • Extreme History >
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        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Remarkable Discoveries Within the Sphinx (Hoax)
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • The Shaver Mystery >
          • Lovecraft and the Deros
          • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
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        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
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        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
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        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
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        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
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        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
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      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • The Fall of the Sky
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
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      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
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      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
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      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
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      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
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      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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