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Review of "Myths of the Rune Stone" by David M. Krueger

10/7/2015

53 Comments

 
Myths of the Runestone / David M. Kruger
University of Minnesota Press | 2015 | 224 pages | $36.99 paperback / $130.99 cloth
 
Since the 1830s, scholars have accepted that the Norse were likely the first Europeans to have reached North America, around 1000 CE, and after the discovery of a Viking settlement at L’Anse aux Meadows in Canada, this conclusion was all but certain. This fact has appeared in American textbooks since the mid-1800s, and yet this hasn’t been good enough for generations who sought a grander role for America’s Nordic explorers. In his new book Myths of the Rune Stone: Viking Martyrs and the Birthplace of America (University of Minnesota Press, 2015), scholar of religion David M. Krueger explores why so many have become so devoted to the Kensington Rune Stone (KRS), an alleged record of a Norse expedition to Minnesota in 1362, which, if genuine, would change very little about our understanding of the tides of history.
Picture
The Kensington Rune Stone as it appeared in 1910. (Wikimedia Commons)
The Kensington Rune Stone (the spelling Runestone apparently was later adopted for complex reasons that Krueger said involve divorcing it from an ethnic context) was discovered in 1898, and it has remained controversial ever since. The runic text reads, in translation, 
Götalanders and 22 Northmen on an exploring (or acquisition) expedition from Vinland west. We camped by 2 skerries one day’s journey north from this stone. We were afishing one day; after we came home we found 10 men red with blood and dead. A.V.M. (= Ave Maria) Save from evil.
 
(There) are 10 men by the sea (or lake) to look after our ships 14 days’ journey from this island (or peninsula). Year 1362.

​(trans. George T. Flom, adapted)
Krueger’s analysis isn’t dependent on the authenticity of the artifact. Indeed, he does not take a position on whether the stone is a genuine medieval carving or a modern hoax, though his arguments imply that he favors the hoax conclusion. Instead, Krueger’s goal is to examine the ways in which various social groups utilized the KRS in their attempts to navigate American life, and the different and sometimes contradictory results of these attempts. He sees belief in the KRS as a type of “civic religion” in Minnesota, comparable to the fetishizing of the Founding Fathers or the Pilgrims in other parts of the country.
 
Krueger locates the first set of arguments about the stone’s purpose and utility in the aftermath of the Indian Wars and their particular effect on rural Minnesota, where some especially bloody battles were fought during the Dakota War of 1862.  The consequence of the defeat of the Dakotas was their expulsion from the state and replacement with Scandinavian immigrants. By 1890, the closing of the frontier, Krueger said, led to a crisis of masculinity in which new ways to demonstrate and sustain virility and manliness were sought when warfare and physical labor were less certain paths to status. At the same time, new immigrants were attempting to locate themselves in the American context and find a way to tie their new home to their ancestral homeland in Scandinavia. This established the two essential traits of the KRS that remain stable through nearly all interpretations of it: That it established a Scandinavian claim to Minnesota that predated the British, the French, and even Columbus, and that it glorified the virile manly men who ventured into the unknown.
 
One other theme follows through nearly all interpretations, and Krueger does not shy away from it: The KRS has been consistently used as a tool for promoting white hegemony, specifically through glorifying Nordic/Aryan people, often in opposition to non-white groups. (The Viking statues made to celebrate the stone, like Big Ole, were routinely described and depicted in homoerotic terms focusing on white masculine grandeur.) At first this took the form of arguing for Nordic equality with the Anglo-Saxon, and then for the continued supremacy of Northern Europeans against all others. In the various narratives used to defend the KRS, Nordic/Aryan adventurers are routinely contrasted against bloodthirsty, uncivilized Native Americans, who over time became stand-ins for a variety of perceived enemies, from racial minorities to godless communists. In the mid-twentieth century, a nun said that the KRS “is a pointer for us who live under an atomic cloud as they lived in terror of unknown Indians, what we should do and say. AVE MARIA. SAVE US FROM EVIL.” These last words were taken from a popular translation of the KRS. The ten men the stone said died in Minnesota became “martyrs” who gave themselves for Christ and America, useful symbols of Christianity and patriotism.
 
The stone’s fame was always greatest in Minnesota, and for the most part the stone was a regional curiosity, despite its famous trips to the Smithsonian and the New York World’s Fair, both of which ended in humiliation as initial enthusiasm and positive reception curdled into rejection the more that experts had a chance to examine the rock. The retrenchments that followed these two gambits for mainstream acceptance embittered the stone’s most prominent supporters, particularly Hjalmar Holand, who set the template many others would follow in combining self-aggrandizement, questionable scholarship, and accusations that an academic conspiracy is suppressing the truth. Ultimately, the conspirators’ case makes little sense, as Krueger reveals, for powerful organizations tried valiantly to promote the KRS as authentic. Among these were Freemasons, who saw the “AVM” carved on the stone as the Hindu “AUM,” an early transliteration of the syllable Om used in nineteenth century Masonry; the Catholic Church, which declared the stone the earliest evidence of a Catholic presence in Minnesota; and various civic and government bodies, which saw the stone as a way of raising Minnesota’s profile and establishing the Midwest as the center of America’s and its foundation spot. This hardly stands up to conspiracy theorists’ claims of a vast effort to suppress the truth about the stone. Instead, what emerges is a sustained effort by self-interested parties to promote the stone as authentic, in the face of and despite slowly mounting evidence that it is a modern hoax.
 
Krueger’s book is a thoughtful examination of the competing claims of Nordic-Americans, Catholics, Christian fundamentalists, and Minnesotans in general to turn the KRS into a foundational support for their various efforts to find a place atop the American social hierarchy. It is well worth the read and a rewarding reading experience.
 
However, readers should be warned that this is not an introductory text to the KRS, and parts of it were rather confusing without deep background on the rune stone saga as well as more than a century of Minnesota history. This is understandable since the book is from the University of Minnesota Press. The KRS is intimately tied with Minnesota, and as such much of the material is rather parochial to the people, places, and events of that state. The book is written as a cultural study rather than a narrative history, so at times it presupposes background that casual readers may not have. Given how interesting the interpersonal drama of the various proponents and opponents of the KRS became, I almost would have liked to see this very slim volume (the body of the book is scarcely 150 pages) expanded into a fuller and richer narrative with more characterization and background.
 
The book is also marred by some small but important errors. For example, in making the case that the Catholic Church retains an interest in the KRS as evidence of a pre-Columbian Catholic claim to the Midwest, Krueger asserts that the Catholic Encyclopedia “still” endorses the authenticity of the stone “as of 2014.” He cites the NewAdvent.org web page as his source, but that webpage is (a) not an official Catholic Church site, and (b) merely reprinting the 1907-1912 edition of the encyclopedia. Other similar but small errors crop up from time to time.
 
This should not detract, though, from Krueger’s achievement in documenting and placing into context the similar and overlapping ways that groups that perceived themselves as outsiders to elite East Coast WASP culture—immigrants, Catholics, evangelical Christians, the rural working class, Midwesterners—used the stone as a more or less literal foundation stone for their claim to be part of the American hierarchy. Scott Wolter, who warrants only a few paragraphs at the end of the book, is merely the latest in a long line of claimants, interesting only because his version is a sort of reversal of the earlier versions of the KRS myth, this time seeking not to establish but to protect the hard-won hegemony of Euro-Americans by reinforcing their cultural heritage against a Catholic Church that is still seen in some quarters as a distant, foreign, and vaguely threatening power.
53 Comments
busterggi (Bob Jase)
10/7/2015 02:06:50 pm

What would it matter if the Norse had made the KRS or if the Phoenicians had erected 'America's Stonehenge' or a small group of Hebrews had somehow reached the desert in New Mexico as none of these or the other proposed European/Middle-Eastern/Asian explorers claimed to have reached the Americas actually managed to survive? Clearly any input they might have had on the native population amounted to nothing.

Reply
Pam
10/7/2015 03:03:18 pm

Great review, Jason. I know Krueger pointed out that the people who were initially outsiders and embraced the KRS were the same people that began to distance themselves from the stone and it's mythology once they became more accepted into mainstream America, Catholics included. So how did Wolter come to his belief that the church has tried to supress knowledge of the KRS?

He lives in Minnesota and spent time in the area where Our Lady of the Rune Stone parish/church sits. If he's ignorant of the church's existence then I pity him. If he knows and still went ahead with his trash theory then he's a really rotten man.

I thought this book was great at explaining how it all began and why.

Reply
tm
10/8/2015 01:09:02 pm

"So how did Wolter come to his belief that the church has tried to supress knowledge of the KRS?"

Someone like Wolter would go to the meta level:

Because after the KRS received so much publicity, those crafty Catholics thought that by accepting the KRS they would focus attention on the Viking true believers or the hoax controversy. They hoped nobody would be clever enough to look deeper and discover the secret Templar/Cisterian code hidden among the innocent looking runes.

To a conspiracy theorist, every reasonable explanation is just another diabolical attempt to hide the truth.

Reply
Pam
10/11/2015 09:31:16 pm

"Because after the KRS received so much publicity, those crafty Catholics thought that by accepting the KRS they would focus attention on the Viking true believers or the hoax controversy. They hoped nobody would be clever enough to look deeper and discover the secret Templar/Cisterian code hidden among the innocent looking runes"

If this is how Wolter's thought process works then he must suffer from massive headaches.

John
10/7/2015 05:00:06 pm

Scott on his blog recently:

"Anonymous October 7, 2015 at 7:22 AM

Hello Mr. Wolter, will you please consider putting up another blog subject, finally? Since most of your TV programs are over, would you consider returning your attention back to the Kensington Rune Stone? I believe that's a real story.

Someone who grew up in Alexandria just wrote a new book saying the rune stone is not real. I would like you to address his problem, if you don't mind going back to where you got your start. It looks like the rune stone needs more defending, and I think you might be a good man to defend it, one more time.

But I read on a website somewhere that you and that H. Holand before you both took the message on the rune stone wrong, about certain things. I looked over and over at the message, and it seems real simple. I don't know how people can become so confused. I guess by added stuff to what it really says.

I hope you can help clear some things up. Thank you for caring about history.

Peyton

Reply

Scott Wolter October 7, 2015 at 9:20 AM

Peyton,

The student who wrote this book was to Minnesota by scholars in Sweden a couple of years ago to write a book that supports the negative opinion they reached over a century ago to try and maintain the status quo. There is no factual evidence to support a hoax so they continue to try to come up with 'hidden messages' and 'mythical stories' to try and prove their point. It's all utter nonsense.

I've been planning to post another KRS blog to prod the trolls to bring the best they've got. However, this particular post is more important than I think people realize. The Hooked X/Tau Cross on the Jesus ossuary lid is of profound importance and goes a long way to proving my overall thesis. Did you notice how silent the opponents have been, with the expectation of one 'Anonymous' poster who has tried hard, but brought nothing of merit?

Regardless, I'll start another thread soon about this new book and see what happens."

Reply
Joe Scales
10/7/2015 06:25:50 pm

Wolter will not publish facts, science, history, linguistics, anthropology nor logic that show him to be a complete imbecile totally lacking in pertinent credentials or theories with any merit whatsoever. He may let a single argument through, but after he responds with ad hominem or other fallacy (proof by assertion being his favorite amongst his vast arsenal of non sequitur) he will not publish a well reasoned rebuttal, giving the impression that he has somehow prevailed against his opposition. It's not even worth arguing with him quite frankly and he will not appear anywhere other than the protected turf of his blog to defend his wholly speculative theories.

Perhaps his latest debacle, the Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar, has turned off even his most loyal fans... and now he's left pleading for "trolls" to come and play. I for one hope they ignore him; but predictably, he'll declare victory by their silence. Yet another fallacy, of course.

Reply
Only Me
10/7/2015 06:31:16 pm

I agree with Scott. All his work (or should I say "speculative research", as Scott himself calls it) is all utter nonsense. He has tried hard, but has brought nothing of merit.

Reply
Javy Lopez 2
10/8/2015 10:20:13 am

By "His" I am assuming (hoping) you mean Scott Wolter, as in "Scott Wolter's work is all utter nonsense..". In which case, I heartily agree.

Only Me
10/8/2015 11:48:46 am

Yes, I was referring to Scott.

In his own thesis, he calls his work "speculative research", but still insists his interpretation of the symbol on the "Jesus ossuary" will prove that thesis. In other words, he's publicly admitting to confirmation bias.

Americanegro
8/21/2016 07:00:31 pm

"Peyton,

The student who wrote this book was to Minnesota by scholars in Sweden a couple of years ago to write a book that supports the negative opinion they reached over a century ago to try and maintain the status quo.[...]"

Sounds like Wolter has an alcohol problem. My money's on gin.

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Harris
10/7/2015 06:56:50 pm

This book looks absolutely fascinating and I can't wait to read it. I'm particularly interested in the "runestone" vs. "rune stone" definition, as I've never seen this before, though I have definitely wondered about it.

I saw David M. Krueger give a short lecture on the early stages of his research a few years ago at the same event in which I presented my own thesis research, and I'm very pleased that someone has published a book on the KRS and "civil religion."

My own far more minor research for my paper focused much more on how the debate was framed in the media at the time so I'm very curious to see where they are similar and diverge.

As for Wolter's comment on his blog, that is... interesting. He seems to be confusing Krueger's work with that of a Swedish grad student who was working on his thesis the same time I was; he focused on the exhibition of the stone at festivals and museums. I shared a few brief emails and sources with him but never met him. He published a couple fascinating articles for the journal Minnesota History and the Swedish-American Historical Quarterly, but no book that I'm aware of.

Of course, the hypocrisy of claiming rune stone "scholars" use "hidden messages" and "mythical stories" to prove their thesis is rich when Wolter's whole argument is that a secret society did it.

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Kal
10/7/2015 07:49:44 pm

They ignore the likelihood a farmer wanting to cash in carved that stone to get people to his land in post colonial times, because it fits their narrative.

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titus pullo
10/7/2015 08:12:06 pm

I wonder if the alleged Norse Spearhead at the Wayne County Historical museum in Lyons NY is in the book. I did some research and even met with the director of the Museum and the history of the alleged Norse spearhead is very instructive of the "Viking" craze and proponents in the early 20th century. Look up Boardmoor relics (one of the guys publicizing the Broardmoor relics-a guy named James Curren was also involved in getting this relic "tested" and confirmed as Norse-he was an interesting guy who wrote "Here is Vinland" about Norse all over the Great Lakes). I'm trying to get some museums to test the alleged Norse spearhead. I'm surprised Mr. Wolter has yet visited this small town museum. I actually had a chairman of the Old English/Norse department at the University of Nottingham look at some pictures I took of it and his team thought it was Norse. Did it get to central NY by trade networks from New Foundland or was it brought to the US in modern times or were Norse sailing around Lake Ontario (doubtful)..who knows. If I get it tested I'll send the results and a write up to Jason to share if he wishes....

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Uncle Ron
10/7/2015 09:07:53 pm

May we assume you meant "Beardmore"?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1525/aa.1957.59.5.02a00140/abstract

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Titus Pullo
10/7/2015 09:18:51 pm

Thanks Ron...I was typing a bit too fast.

See below the summary of the Sodus Point Norse Spearhead. I found in my research a transcript from the Empire Club of Canada in Toronto from 1939 where James Curran (newspaper editor/owner and author the book I reference) gave a talk "Here was Vinland"-I could imagine Jupiter from Holst playing the background while he spoke of how anglo-saxons were the true explorers of America. ha ha

http://www.fltimes.com/arts_and_entertainment/article_6f55884a-874d-11e2-8cdc-0019bb2963f4.html

Johnny
10/8/2015 06:00:45 am

You may be interested, someone asked about Hancock's paleogeology adviser Randal Carlson's grasp of climate science here -

http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/definitive-global-climate-change-aka-global-warming-thread-general-discussion-and-questions/71?page=100#comments

The conclusion was that he talks tripe.

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johnny
10/8/2015 06:18:01 am

....oops, just made a word up.
Don't worry, I'm not copyrighting 'paleogeologist' you can all use it :-)

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Dave
10/8/2015 08:08:31 am

Why would the Norse, after finding half their party murdered and knowing the natives are out to kill them, rather than sprinting to the safety of their boats, stop and take the time to carve this stone?

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titus pullo
10/8/2015 09:05:04 am

There are no records of long distance land exploration by the Norse as far as I can find. They traveled by water..and it is a long way from Hudson's baby to where the KRS was found. And it is a long way from Greenland to the southern end of Hudson's Bay. Why would they go all that way?

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Bob Jase
10/8/2015 09:46:57 am

Simple, the stone was carved by Olaf the Literate Who Has Poor Judgement.

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Joe Scales
10/8/2015 10:03:55 am

Well, if the stone was in fact a land claim, it seems it was contested from the get go; and contested most successfully at that.

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William
10/11/2015 01:14:39 pm

Dave - Their are a few facts about the KRS that are not in the book or Scotts work. 1- The rune word dead is actually death - David Johnson identified this about 2 years ago. 2- The .022 in. mechanical wear line below the last row of runes support a 350 year time frame that the stone stood upright. 3- The 1494 treaty between Portugal and Spain indicate a marker be placed at the Kensington location. 4- The triangle holes in the surrounding area stones and their connection to the KRS location.

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Only Me
10/11/2015 03:12:55 pm

#3 is wrong. This is a misinterpretation of what the treaty actually states concerning the placement of markers. We've been over this before.

#4 is speculation. There has been nothing confirmed to establish a connection between the triangular holes and the KRS.

#2 is interesting, but I'd like to see more analysis of the line to see if it can be a clear indicator of the stone's estimated age.

Honestly, if the KRS is authentic, it's just as Jason said; it wouldn't really change our understanding of history. It would only show the Norse explored further south than previously thought.

William
10/11/2015 05:22:13 pm

Only Me - Until you understand the 14th century of the defination of the north pole, you will never understand #3. Until you take an actual measurement of the Wear line and establish a comparitive known wear you opinion is not backed up with expeirence to address #2, Unless you study and log over 100 triangle holes in various locations from Nova Scocia to the KRS you do not understand their function for item #4. Until you understand the current DNA study ongoing of the Mandan Indian or the DNA study of the 60 native Americans, you will not know the Mandan were Norse and the 10 death of the plague died of pneumonia. The only thing I agree with you is that Christopher Columbus recorded the discovery of America and never set foot on the USA or Canada. He was 940 miles south of his destination when he found land and made this mistake 4 times, however each time he returned home without any variation. My only point is, these and many more items are not in the book which makes it heavy in one direction.

Only Me
10/11/2015 06:05:20 pm

#3 is clearly defined in the actual treaty. I understand what is written.

Studying and logging the number of holes still doesn't establish a link with the KRS, so #4 is still speculation. There was an official investigation done by the state archaeologist, and while there are those that disagree with the conclusions of his report, it remains the only official report trying to determine the origin of the holes, AFAIK.

#2 wasn't an opinion, at all. I suggested more in-depth analysis to determine if the wear line can be used as a possible means of getting an estimated date for the KRS.

I'm not here to pick a fight. It's okay if we disagree on some points.

I would just like to see more analysis done on the KRS that isn't biased "theorizing" by fringe historians with an agenda or colored by the "civic religion" Krueger refers to in his book. Take the stone for what it actually is and let the facts stand on their own.

Joe Scales
10/11/2015 08:02:19 pm

As per the "mechanical wear line", how do you know the stone was carved before it was created?

William
10/11/2015 08:14:52 pm

I also am not here to argue for or against the validity of the KRS. I can only say their are always three sides to a mystery. A Theory, An opposition to that Theory and THE TRUTH. Scott Wolter has a theory he feels is close to the truth. I do not agree with all of Scott Wolters claims, however I do lean in his favor when it comes to the what, where and why of the KRS. (A land marker to identify the west boundry of Vinland ) on a pole line that reads the same magnetic declination as the north pole. I dissagree with the who and when. I say Portuguese and Danes in 1472.

William
10/11/2015 09:38:01 pm

Joe - That is a great question. The answer to your question is as follows. Tool punch marks indicate the left side of the KRS was squared off before the final three lines of rune letters were added. In that the wear line exist also on this side indicates the wear line came after the side was cut and the runes were carved. Close observation and measurement of the wear line on the right side indicate it is wider at the rear of the stone than atv the front which indicates the stone took some time tilting before it fell forward onto its face.

William
10/11/2015 10:07:29 pm

Only me - Item 4, the triangle holes. You say no connection has been made between the KRS and the holes. The connection is that the only way to locate the land marker on a pole line that has zero magnetic declination in 1362 or 1472 is by the use of a lodestone compass. The fact is a lodestone compass will not work without magnatite to load into the stone for the metal needle to point north. The only way to obtain magnatite in Kensington Minn. is to drill holes into stone containing it. Of over 100 holes studied by myself and recorded a direct coorolation is that the deeper the hole the more magnatite. some high percentage of magnatite in some stones had more than one hole. Some holes were 9 in. deep and some only 1/2 in. The shallow holes less than 1 in. had no magnatite. East and west is longitude measurement, the KRS was placed on the west side of Vinland on a zero degree reading pole line 370 leagues west of the Newport Tower. The hooked X is shown on the KRS 22 times. The hook on the right leg of the X is always pointing in the same direction as the left leg of the X. This is the symbol for magnetic declination. (The difference between true north and magnetic north) Their are triangle holes and hooked X,s in the Newport Area as well on Nova Scocia.

William
10/11/2015 10:43:38 pm

Only Me - Item 4 triangle holes. What state archaeologest report. These holes exist in at least 10 states and parts of Canada. Has he studied them all.? Has he studied the lodestone compass and how it used magnatite powder to load it. He should start by contacting Glen Ballah in New Hampshire (curator of the New Hampshire Museum) that holds the mystery stone that Scott Wolter stated was an Indian work of art. This lodestone is un-like the English 1606 Admiral Sommers lodestone in a Bermuda museum. The Sommers stone does not have a hole for loading magnatite like the one found in New Hampshire. The New Hampshire stone is designed to stand on end in the compass below the face plate allowing the magnetic field on top of the stone to orentate the needle to magnetic north. This compaass used a common dial for reading true north at mid day and magnetic north at the same time. For a detail report on the lodestone compass you can find it in a paper posted in Migration and Diffusion under my name and called The Mystery Stone of New Hampshire.

Only Me
10/12/2015 12:17:20 am

His name is Tom Trow. I got it wrong when I said he was a state archaeologist. Follow the link below:

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/what-were-the-viking-mooring-stones-really-used-for

In the post, there's a hyperlink to a PDF of Tom's report.

Dave
10/12/2015 07:48:31 am

William, that's all fine and dandy, but it does nothing to answer my question.

Why would a Norse party, knowing they're in hostile territory with native inhabitants who are murdering them, take the time to extricate a large stone, carve this message, and then leave it behind?

The desire for survival would indicate the proper course of action being to return to the safety of the boats as quickly as possible.

Joe Scales
10/12/2015 11:34:20 am

"Tool punch marks indicate the left side of the KRS was squared off before the final three lines of rune letters were added. In that the wear line exist also on this side indicates the wear line came after the side was cut and the runes were carved. "

William, you mean the argument that the "split" side was split off contemporaneously with the carving of the runes based on supposed tool marks? The Swedish geologists disagreed with Wolter's conclusions in this regard as the alleged tool marks were actually concave in nature, and not likely done by a wedge. Just like the alleged "root" markings to back up the under the tree story, this is only more evidence of Wolter's geological blundering easily dispelled by those favoring proper methodology over sensationalism.

But now that I see you're now aligning windmills and such to hooked X's, I beg forgiveness for my intrusion, as I thought we were on planet Earth...

Americanegro
8/21/2016 07:04:23 pm

#3. I wasn't aware that Spain and Portugal used runes.

Mike
10/8/2015 09:06:35 am

They wouldn't.

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Dave
10/8/2015 11:20:16 am

That's exactly my point.

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Mike
10/8/2015 09:07:41 am

Oops, my reply was to Dave.

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William
10/12/2015 08:24:36 am

Dave - Mike is correct - They would not have went one day south to carve a rock which was north and between them and their boats with 10 men 14 days north. The 10 men death were native Americans that contacted pneumonia and died 10 - 12 days after exposure because they had no imunity to this European plague. Keep also in mind that a days travel was a measurement of distance, not time. it was 72 miles or 3 miles per hour. This places the main ships on the inland sea (salt water) at the mouth of the Nelson river in Hudson Bay. Their is a lot more to the story that has not been told. Dave - Thanks for the update on Tom Trow. Do you feel he can remove the mechanical wear line or has he even studied the facts. I do archaeology work because I am certified. A good researcher will double down with facts before he becomes an author of speculations. (The Indian chief Talawanda sp? crossed Lake Ontario in a stone canoe from west to east in order to explain to the five tribes the new laws of the land). Fact - The 4 small 6 man fishing boats of the Portuguese that supported the main ship each had a single sail and used stones for ballest. The natives called them stone canoes.

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Dave
10/12/2015 01:52:40 pm

William, the stone states "...we found 10 men red with blood and dead." It does not say whether or not these dead men were Norse or Native, however I don't believe they would have carved a reference to dead natives. Also "...red with blood and dead..." to me is not referring to a death by illness, it sounds more like death by attack.

I believe a days journey is a rough approximation of how far a group can travel during sunlight, not a 24 hour day which is a result of modern time keeping. 3 miles per hour is, I think, a bit high for a party burdened with supplies and weapons traveling through unknown, hostile, and rough terrain. Given approximately 10 hours of daylight at 3 miles per hour would give the party only 20 miles. Since they would be armed and carrying their provisions with them it's more likely they would be making perhaps 1 mile per hour, or less.

I fail to see the reason and logic behind carving this stone. Even if the 10 dead were natives and the cause of death was natural, why would the Norse bother to commemorate that event in stone? The natives were nothing but possible trading partners to them and would, I think, not be deemed worthy of the great honor of being placed on the stone marker.

William
10/12/2015 08:52:41 am

Only Me - You need to re-read the stone hole blog you referrd to. It states a group of Minn. archaeologest studied the holes and found no placement of the stone holes coorolating to the KRS. They did not state they were blasting holes. I agree with Scott Wolter that they have no connection with water, however you will find them near water routs because when they were made the water way was the road. They are in Ohio, Maine, Mass. Ri, Nova Scocia, Minn, N&S dakota, Wisc, Iowa, New York, Penn. and more. They are in all states between and near the KRS to the east coast by way of the great lakes and Hudson Bay. They are not all used for blasting. Only the ones early farmers wanted stones for house building or clear the field. Their is a group of about 22 within 100 yards of the KRS. Another cluster is located 65 miles to the west of the KRS. The reason for these two clusters 65 miles apart is as follows. In 1362 when Pal Knutson claimed land for Denmark he marked the North Pole Line 65 miles to the west of KRS because that was the location of zero magnetic declination. 110 years later the marker was re-placed keeping the 1362 claim date to its found location. The holes were to replace the magnatite in the compass to insure an accurate reading for placement. If you look very close at the tool marks in the 1362 date you will see a horrozontal small scribe line where the original date was going to be a 4, however when cutting the final cut the carver chose to leave the 3, because the two expeditions 110 years apart were from the same two countrys supporting the voyages. Portugal and Denmark. You can follow Tom and Scott if you wish. I will follow the facts and it will lead to the truth.

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Only Me
10/12/2015 09:49:56 am

>>>I also am not here to argue for or against the validity of the KRS.<<<

Strange, that your comments towards me seem to disprove that.

>>>You can follow Tom and Scott if you wish. I will follow the facts and it will lead to the truth. <<<

Since you continue to demonstrate a propensity for being personally offended whenever someone doesn't agree with you, in toto, I hope you feel better getting that off your chest.

So, you can keep repeating the same arguments and appeals to authority due to your non-peer reviewed and unpublished papers, I honestly don't care. Someday you'll realize the KRS and the stone holes amount to nothing more than a shrug before people go about their daily lives.

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William
10/12/2015 12:25:23 pm

I assure you I do not know all the facts on the KRS. I also assure you I do not agree or dissagree with Tom or Scott. I will continue to repeat the same arguments peer reviewed or not. I will also listen to any person with facts that can prove otherwise.

William
10/12/2015 02:45:16 pm

Joe - Scott Wolter is correct and the Sweedish Geologest is wrong. The left side of the KRS is a surface that was fabricated flat by man before the runes were carved on it. To do this many punch marks (50 or more) were made about 1/4 in deep on the left side from the face of the stone in order to create a control break which ended up making the flat left side for carving. The face and sides show a mechanical wear line that is clearly visable and measurable which confirms to me the stone stood upright for at least 350 years before it fell onto its face. If you have electric on your planet just open the following link of the 3D film tool I made for people to study the stone. http://www.photospherix.com/3d-view/kensington-ruinstone/

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Joe Scales
10/13/2015 11:28:47 am

You make many conclusions William, however they do not necessarily follow from your highly disputed premises. The Swedish team of geologists, along with input from other academics actually got to examine the KRS in person in making their own conclusions and posing further questions for Wolter which were never answered by him. Well... Wolter did answer them in some respect... by calling them names. But let us put their actual hands on experience aside and entertain your notions in this regard. So if the stone stood upright for 350 years (a notion of yours without foundation), who is to say it wasn't used by Native Americans as a marker of some sort at some time? Perhaps whatever may have been marked upon it previously had long weathered away, before being discovered and used by those originally perpetrating the rune hoax in the late nineteenth century.

Your conclusions point to what you want to believe, rather than what is... let us say... set in stone.

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William
10/13/2015 12:59:09 pm

Joe - Let me somewhat clear the air. My opinions or theories are not mine alone, however they are the group opinion of my THOR group. This is a private group that looks for the truth and has very tallented members. This group was the foundation and team that went to Kansas City to decipher The Kansas City Slater Rune Stone. When our work was completed over 100 pieces of paper were presented to the MO. State Archaeoligest which placed the rune stone and site on recorded record as an early industrial site with a date after 1888. For your information this is the only rune stone in America that is academicly registered and recorded as fact to date. I do not agree with Scott Wolter on many issues, you say he calls the academics names rather than work with them. I do not see this as you say. After the THOR group posted the findings of the Kansas City Stone, Scott sent a letter of congratulations to the group for their work. If I list researchers that have spent time in hands on study of the KRS that are alive today the Swedish team of archaeologiest would be way down the list after Dick Nielson, Scott Wolter, Steve Hilgren, Judi Rudibush, Tom Townsend and Myself. I do not have to prove anything on this site, however I do respect the opinions of people that work hard in research with a focus on the facts rather than the individual gathering them. Their is and always will be a wall between Academics and Amatures. I respect that wall and will research with the rules that they insist. I as well as the THOR group will provide the academics the facts that support our thoerys. The KRS is authintic, The Newport Tower is a fish smoke house and more, The New Hampshire Mystery stone is a lodestone from a compass. The Knights of Christ were in Canada and the USA. For what its worth Scott Wolter has a different opinion on most of these listed sites, however he has brought public awareness to these sites. Yesterday was Columbus Day, The fact is we are celebrating a person that thought he was in China and 940 miles south of his course and never set foot on USA soil in his 4 voyages. Native Americans with white hair, blue eyes and matching DNA were standing on shore to greet them self claimed explorers. Hell if it had not been for the Portuguese fisherman he would have drown 20 years before his voyages.

Joe Scales
10/13/2015 01:35:10 pm

Calling attention to another rune stone that was also carved in the late nineteenth century doesn't seem to bolster your claim that the KRS wasn't likewise carved at that time. Neither do your attempts at building strawmen out of your opposition as if they embrace Columbus. Wolter specifically badmouths the Swedish scholars who took his work apart piece by piece and you only have to give his blog a slight perusal to uncover same. He never met their challenge and is now off on such a tangent mixing Templars and Dan Brown fiction that whatever credibility he may have ever had is no more. Though you claim to embrace the science, as does Wolter, your lack of logic so far is on par with his. Confirmation bias is the fallacy and proof by assertion the flawed methodology.

What matter is the age of a rock when what is carved upon same is relatively modern. That is why such hoaxes are easily dispelled by those with the proper expertise in this regard; despite the dabbling of others with books to sell and television shows to promote.

Joe Scales
10/13/2015 01:49:43 pm

"The face and sides show a mechanical wear line that is clearly visable and measurable which confirms to me the stone stood upright for at least 350 years before it fell onto its face."

If the stone was exposed for 350 years after carving, the bottom lines cut into the calcite would have faded beyond recognition; which effectively denies this notion of yours.

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William
10/13/2015 02:24:01 pm

Joe - I am glad you have the academic approved answer to the age of the KRS. Please publish it so we all can turn our noses up at Scott Wolter. This site is not interested in the truth, it is only focused on shooting the messinger. In this case Scott Wolter or anyone that speaks on his few strengths. Right or Wrong he has brought the KRS to the public more than anyone. I am an engineer not a geoligest, however the carvings on the KRS look just like many of the letters on the 60 grave stones in like enviroment the THOR group used to establish a wear rate. How long will it take Mr Hollands H to look like the 500 year letters on the KRS. Can you show proof their are lines fading that are 500 years old because of the calcite you say is in the KRS.

Joe Scales
10/14/2015 01:26:55 pm

"Can you show proof their are lines fading that are 500 years old because of the calcite you say is in the KRS. "

William,
How on earth does this logically follow from what I told you. Do you deny the existence of calcite, or the portions of lines 7-9 carved in it? I would suggest you do your own research in this regard, but so far you have shown no academic capability to either accept facts as given or argue from intelligence. Given that and your rather numerous grammatical failings, I seriously doubt you've completed any form of higher education, and thus have made your way here rather unarmed.

Certainly there has been work done in attempts to determine any authenticity for the KRS by intelligent and qualified academics (Wolter most notably not being among them), but even Winchell deferred to the Swedish linguists in his report; and their rather obvious determinations, along with the Larsson Papers (which revealed a more probably source for the KRS runes) have overwhelmingly leaned towards a hoax. As for the science, it is your burden of proof, not mine; and there has yet to be any qualified peer reviewed scientific findings legitimizing the KRS nor verifying the conclusions you have made. Crying foul and academic conspiracy is howling in the wind and does not count in this regard. There is a reason why peer review is important and necessary, and that is to ensure proper methodology, logical thinking and science that can be replicated by others in the field. This is of course to deter speculation and chicanery from being promoted as truth.

If you feel you have made your case here, then by all means congratulate yourself. Good luck with all future endeavors, but I would suggest for same, that you don't begin with your conclusions.

Day Late and Dollar Short
10/14/2015 02:35:38 pm

William, I cannot access your The Hunters, Ohio Rock Yahoo group. I can't tell if its a closed group, or my Yahoo account is acting up. Sincerely, good job on the Slater Rune Stone, though I feel it doesn't bolster the argument for "authentic" pre-columbian rune stones in any way. It is better to prove it is an industrial era inscription than allow it to be appropriated by the fringe to further their particular agendas.

Also, you hold degrees in both engineering and archaeology, am I understanding that correctly?

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William
10/14/2015 05:34:59 pm

Thanks for the support on the Kansas City rune stone. I have a Mechanical Engineering degree from Purdue University as well as an Industrial Education Degree. I started a Masters in Business at Eastern Mich. however did not complete due to transfer by my company. I worked 39 years in manufacturing with the major US auto companies. All of this was in various engineering and Management functions. As a hobby I took Archaeology study under Joe Schomaker (native american from Ohio with degrees in Archaeology). Joe was hired by our local township to train and certify our ability to perform and train Boy Scouts and locals in the basics of archaeology. In Ohio as in many other states the laws passed in the 1990s assure native American sites are protected from non qualified researchers. Each year our township has a one week dig at an old ice storage facility. We just completed our 9th year of work and to date have about 100 Boy Scouts through the program to earn their merrit badge. I will attempt to get you a link to the THOR site.

William
10/15/2015 08:22:02 am

Day Late - The attached link should get you to the THOR site. I do not like posting this on Jasons site because it sounds like I am pushing THOR. I assure you I will require proof of ID in order to protect the members from scams. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/thor-thehuntersohiorock/info

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Ed Tillman
9/17/2022 08:22:31 am

I've been studying these different runestones since 1985. Been keeping my oppinion to myself but with the release of my book Heaven Holds The Answers its time to talk.
This Kansas City Slater Stone is referred to as the Independence, Mo. Rune Stone in my book. And I have a different take on this stone. First, is the (wed) that is being interperted as Wedding why not Wednsday? And the (1) with the six vertical offset diamonds that do not make contact is being interpret as 1888, OK. No two diamonds touch but its believe that they possibly mean 8.
It believe to say "Cyrus Arthur Slater-Hanneh Y. Wed 1888,3rd Nov." Someone finds a artical from a New Zealand paper dated Oct 6 and a census from England that backs this up. The paper says she set sail on Aug 2 arrived in NY just in time to catch a train after a possibly trip of 6 days,which then wreck alone the the Delaware River. She was hositalized for three months at Port Jevis,NY. for 3 mos.. Making her arrival around Aug 8th or 9th then her discharge about Nov 8th or 9th.
Cyrus was wired and arrives in NY in Aug. they was merried the day he showed up. It most likely took a week to reach KC. placing them there around the 15th or 16th. So (a) Why did he not carve his true wedding date? (b) They couldn't have been in KC on Nov.3. No matter how one looks at it, the numbers just don't work. (c) If wed means wedding then they was married in August. (d) If wed means Wednesday then Nov. 3rd fell on Saturday in 1888.(e) If voyage took longer,then discharge would been later.(f) They find a name through a KC Times odituary dated Oct.1,1954 for Hannah Yearly. So why wasn't the name Slater. There to much wrong here.
One might want to look at something different. There is a reason why the diamonds are off set and not touching and this is what you will see looking at this runestone from the front. But if one looks at them from the side you will see 8's and the names, well these English names are as common today as they was in the medieval era.
Its been a tradition for natives to record time by using months.
I'm going to lay out something strang and it will have to do with the location of this stone. At one time that area was a Hopewell village. So I suggest thet we take the 1888 and divide it by 12 and I get 157 years 4mos.
Its the way of my book to show how dates are told that may lead from a celestial event or event to or from a celestial event. So what event? A comet Swift-Tuttle that cross the heavens in March 1362.Thats the year of the Kensington Rune Stone. March 1st New Years Day 1362-157=1205 and if we move back
4 mos, we get Nov.3rd Wednesday. In the year of 1205 there was an eclipse in that area and it was a possible year of a major flood that has a reoccurrence of around 75-83 years.
So what is the importance of that location? The Mormons called it the center of Zion the center of the New Jerusalem. And if we look at the diamonds we count 6 if we add 6 to the last 4 diamonds that makes up a possible 88 we have 94.And if we take the same 4 diamonds and multiply them by 10 we have 40; 90 deg Longitude 40 deg Laditute is the correct readings for a famous Mormon land mark The Adem-ondi-Ahman the first center longitute line of the New Zion. This center line will be moved to the location where the V'erendry Rune stone was found at Pierre SD and that location can be found in the diamonds. And the Book of Mormons Speaks of a stone with carvings that was carried and a possible date of 1362.

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