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Review of "The Search for Atlantis" by Steve P. Kershaw

10/11/2018

53 Comments

 
Picture
The Search for Atlantis: A History of Plato’​s Ideal State
Steve P. Kershaw | 428 pages | Pegasus | October 2018 | ISBN: 
978-1681778594​ | $27.95
Picture
​The greatest compliment I can bestow on Classical scholar Steve P. Kershaw’s The Search for Atlantis (Pegasus, 2018), released last week, is that I have very little to say about it. Kershaw’s book, whose title is somewhat misleading, offers a history of scholarly and pseudo-scholarly reception of Plato’s myth of Atlantis from Classical Antiquity to today. It is decidedly not a book about hunting for Atlantis, and the author makes plain his conclusion that Plato invented the story of Atlantis as a philosophical allegory and that there is not and never was either a real Atlantis or an Egyptian myth of Atlantis for Plato to have drawn upon. I am in almost complete agreement with Kershaw, who teaches at the continuing education branch of Oxford University, and have almost nothing to add.
The Search for Atlantis
​Kershaw is deeply read in the field of Atlantis, and as a Classicist, he is familiar not just with the ancient testimonia about Atlantis but also with ancient literature beyond the scattered references to Atlantis in the decades and centuries that followed Plato. Therefore, he does what few in Atlantis studies have done half so well, carefully laying out Plato’s own use of made-up myths and legends elsewhere in his body of work, as well as parallel accounts of fabulous cities and fictitious realms elsewhere in Greek literature prior to Plato in order to demonstrate how the story Plato tells in the Timaeus and the Critias fits within the context of ancient Greek literature, reinforcing the fictitious nature of the tale.
 
Two lengthy chapters translate the relevant sections of the Timaeus and the Critias, and then each subsequent chapter of the book examines successive time periods and their efforts to reinterpret and (mis-) understand Plato’s allegory. The material he covers was familiar to me and will be familiar to many of you who read this blog, but for the general reader it will be a welcome repository of information, organized chronologically to demonstrate the development of the modern conception of Atlantis from an accumulation of accretions and errors in the millennia since Plato wrote.
 
In describing the many (many, many, many) different hypotheses about the location of the “real” Atlantis, Kershaw does journeyman’s labor demonstrating that the modern claims we see on the History Channel and in popular books and magazines are almost all presaged or explicitly stolen from the wild speculations of the early modern period, when Atlantis theories were a dime a dozen and usually tied to imperialist or colonialist enterprises looking for historical precedent for their conquests. It is not surprising but nonetheless gratifying to see that Kershaw’s selection of early modern authors overlaps only in part those figures I have frequently cited in my own work; there are, sadly, far too many writers on Atlantis to fit in any one book.
 
It is also impressive that Kershaw resists the pressure from the public and publishers to make the Atlantis story “fun.” As his tale proceeds chronologically, it grows darker. The association between Atlantis and imperialism is always quite clear, and he makes no bones about the way nineteenth and twentieth century thinkers explicitly transformed the story into a racial narrative designed to justify Aryan supremacy. He devotes a chapter to the Nazis and Atlantis, and he also covers Erich von Däniken and his ilk, with their challenge to the legitimacy of science. Unspoken, but nevertheless obvious is the gradual decline of Atlantis from a subject of high culture concern to a low culture fantasy, from scholarship to the domain of cranks and madmen. He is clear that the hunt for Atlantis is pseudoarchaeology, but he is equally concerned that academia is echoing the Victorians and Nazis in trying to transform history into a postmodern test of ideology: “Yet even here there are discernible trends in certain areas of more mainstream academia that embrace the early twenty-first-century notion of ‘alternative facts’, and try to muddy the waters between history and fiction, regarding them as alternate forms of narrative, with neither of them being more or less trustworthy than the other. What matters in this way of thinking is not the weight of the evidence or the quality of the argument, but whether the ideas are psychologically and culturally useful. In other words, the material is judged by political criteria, not on the usual principles for getting at the truth.” To that end, he condemns his colleagues for failing to engage the public and denounce fake history strongly enough.
 
One area where we perhaps disagree is in Kershaw’s claim that Plato intended the Atlantis story to be an uproariously funny joke. He writes that in Plato’s time, Egypt was not a respected font of wisdom but a proverbial land of liars and scoundrels, so attributing the Atlantis story to ancient Egyptian wisdom would have been terribly funny to his readers. I have read enough ancient references to the hoary antiquity and ancient wisdom of Egypt to doubt whether this claim is entirely true, but I concede that most were composed long after Plato, when attitudes may have been different. I don’t believe Kershaw to be correct that Ignatius Donnelly took his inspiration for Atlantis: The Antediluvian World from Jules Verne’s Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. The evidence is fairly clear that Donnelly started to read the Timaeus and Critias in 1880, when forced into retirement by the loss of his congressional seat. He also read a new release that year, John Short’s The North Americans of Antiquity, whose chapter on Atlantis served as Donnelly’s direct model, including several uncredited borrowings. Kershaw is also wrong to say that Donnelly gained his knowledge from the Library of Congress; he wrote Atlantis at his home in Minnesota, where he maintained the largest private library in the Midwest.
 
There are some weaknesses in The Search for Atlantis. The author recognizes the parallels between Plato’s account and the Biblical Flood narrative, which so heavily impressed early modern and nineteenth century authors, but he does not address the structural parallels between the final surviving sections of the Critias and the Near Eastern Flood myth, which seems likely to have served as its literary model. He includes an unexplained appendix on Near Eastern Flood myths, but which fails to describe a clear connection to the Critias. If the author intended to cover Atlantis in pop culture by referencing Jules Verne and Francis Bacon, he might also have done well to consider the power of modern pop culture in shaping ideas of Atlantis—from the Undersea Kingdom serial to Aquaman to Disney’s Atlantis movie and the pseudohistorical blitz they orchestrated to promote it, to make no mention of the dozens of cable TV documentaries on the subject. Not all developments occur in books, and the absence of discussion of non-print sources is a significant weakness.
 
Additionally, the book is occasionally inelegant. It launches into its topic with little introduction or orientation, and in many sections, the author assumes a greater familiarity with historical people and facts than the general reader is likely to possess. Quotations tend to be lengthy, frequent, and not always completely relevant, giving some chapters (particularly the early ones) a bit of disconnected feel. Some chapters read more like long lists of Atlantis theories than fully developed analysis. To that end, minor figures are often over-represented, and major figures like Donnelly have surprisingly brief appearances in the book.
 
The sense of disconnect also arises from lapses in chronology. While the book generally moves forward through time, here and there the author chooses to follow a thread—say, Atlantis as an Egyptian legend—from its origins through the modern period, interrupting the narrative by introducing future figures too early. Due to the fragmentary nature of the material, he also refers to later authors who quoted earlier ones before they have been introduced, which can be a bit disorienting. Some of the scholarly curlicues might have been better left for footnotes, or else a thematic approach might have served some of the material more effectively.
 
Finally, the author is quite clearly concerned by contemporary politics, and phrases from recent political discourses and references to Internet discussions pop up more than they should. Kellyanne Conway’s “alternative facts” don’t really belong in a book on Atlantis, and the use of last year’s catchphrases and sidelong references to contemporary politics make the book feel dated even though it is new.
 
Ultimately, though, The Search for Atlantis is one of the best, most thorough, and most deeply researched examinations of the history of the idea of Atlantis. Despite its several notable weaknesses, I highly recommend the book for its detailed information and rational perspective. 

53 Comments
E.P. Grondine
10/11/2018 08:56:17 am

" he makes no bones about the way nineteenth and twentieth century thinkers explicitly transformed the story into a racial narrative designed to justify Aryan supremacy."

Thanks for the review, Jason. This book is a must read for me.

That said, you need to be aware that among the memories Plato used to construct his moral fable is the memory of an impact mega-tsunami in the Atlantic Ocean which did occur around 1100 BCE.

In Mayan literature this is referred to a the destruction of the wooden people. I can not work their 3 Ok 1 Kimi date, and this date may refer to yet another later impact tsunami.

Right now, impact tsunami deposits in Spain are being looked at. Al Idrisi is a good guide to sites in Morocco, and I would greatly appreciate it if you would finish translating his work and selling me a copy. "Atlantis in Morocco"?

Then there are the sites in the east coast of Mexico, as well as the geological work being done in the Outer Banks of the Carolinas.

Reply
An Over-Educated Grunt
10/11/2018 10:56:42 am

When the only tool you have is Lucifer's Hammer...

Reply
Pope Francis
10/11/2018 11:10:11 am

. . . You sell your soul to Satan.

GEE
10/11/2018 12:49:42 pm

Over Educated Egotist does not know they are just as stupid as the fantasists they criticise

An Over-Educated Grunt
10/11/2018 04:25:44 pm

Is that seriously the best you can do? You're not even particularly good at offering insult. You had so many choices. You could have called me pompous, long-winded, fond of the sound of my own voice. You could have said that anyone who chooses to emphasize intelligence and education in their name is clearly compensating for something. You could have said that only a half-wit would possibly say half the things I say, a man with his full complement of wits wouldn't say any of them.

But no. You went with a really shitty name substitution and your usual failure to punctuate. I'm insulted more by your lack of effort than whatever comes out of your mouth.

I'd tell you to try again, but we can't have you injuring yourself.

Jim Davis
10/11/2018 09:10:59 am

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion of de Camp's Lost Continents from the 1950s?

Reply
E.P. Grondine
10/11/2018 10:37:08 pm

If this question is for me, Jim

I seem to remember that de Camp pointed out that most people who go on and on about Atlantis have never read any more of Timaeus and Critias than their Atlantis extracts. Further comment on de Camp's analysis by me may be found in "Man and Impact in the Americas".

I seem to remember one of those two works as being a re-hash of a Pythagorean mathematical generation of existence, which itself may go back to Orpheism.

Plato wrote a moral tale, but the reality is that the next piece of shit from space headed our way does not care whether you are greedy bastard or not. It does not care about your religion, your political system, or your views or actions within that system.

It does not care what use you make of history, nor your understanding of it.

It does not care about your family, or your friends.It does not care about what you think, nor what you feel. It does not care about your hopes and aspirations.

If we don't get better detection systems in place so we can take action, this piece of shit from space will kill very large numbers of people.

Russia came within a few kilometers of loosing the Urals a very short time ago, without any warning, but that lesson is being ignored by many people as hard as they can.

Perhaps Plato's moral fable of Atlantis was just a good author's trick to ensure that these works of his would be preserved. I am looking forward to reading Kershaw's new book.

Reply
A Buddhist
10/11/2018 10:05:25 am

to follow a threat—say, Atlantis as an Egyptian legend—from its origins
should be
to follow a thread—say, Atlantis as an Egyptian legend—from its origins

Reply
Doc Rock
10/11/2018 10:10:54 am

It does make some sense that Greeks of Plato's time, and especially much later, might have found Egypt to be a convenient target of humor and even ridicule. Egypt had long since ceased to be a super power by that time. I think that when Greeks first began to establish settlements in Egypt they were viewed and treated as inferiors by Egyptians and were kept segregated. The tables turned by the Ptolemaic Dynasty and prejudice against Egyptians in many Greek enclaves continued at least into the 4th century AD.

There is an interesting article (I think in the journal Man) which asserts that by the later Roman era in Egypt, Greeks were so opposed to their children marrying Egyptians that they "relaxed" incest rules in instances where the only available marriage partners in a particular Greek enclave was family members.


Reply
A C
10/12/2018 11:33:20 am

It would be very plausible that a wider culture could simultaneously contain both the idea of Egypt as the origin of phonies and frauds and the reverse position of Egypt as the source of all wisdom.

Just as how the Egyptophile Herodotus could be seen by some as 'father of history' and by others as 'father of lies'.

Our own society contains both the archetype of the phony eastern Guru and forces who will happily indulge in all forms of exoticism in marketing. That some people aren't taking something seriously is actually usually evidence that they have peers who are doing the reverse.

Reply
T. Franke link
10/14/2018 01:58:22 pm

@A C:

I agree. There is especially a difference, what the elite knows and thinks, and what common people know and think. Herodotus tells of such situations on various occasions. For example, sailors who thought that Asia minor is as far away as the Pillars of Hercules. I am very sure that a man like Solon did not make such mistakes.

@Doc Rock:

Interesting information. The Ptolemaic turn occured only after Plato wrote the Atlantis dialogues.

The basic source of the "it-is-a-typical-Egyptian-fairy-tale" approach to Atlantis is a statement in Plato's Phaedrus dialogue where Phaedrus says that Socrates is quick in inventing Egyptian stories. But ... this does not mean that the Egyptian story presented in the Phaedrus was indeed invented, and Socrates contradicts this invention imputation. Certain modern scholars even recognize traits in the Phaedrus story (of Theut and Thamus) which makes it likely that it is indeed an Egyptian story.

Joe Scales
10/11/2018 10:38:20 am

"What matters in this way of thinking is not the weight of the evidence or the quality of the argument, but whether the ideas are psychologically and culturally useful. In other words, the material is judged by political criteria, not on the usual principles for getting at the truth.”

Given the author's use of the idea of "alternative facts" prior to this admonishment, it would be easy to interpret the above as taking a side. However, I see it as better applied universally to all sides.

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Machala
10/11/2018 10:49:32 am

Jason,
Thanks for a very informative revue.

I am familiar with Dr. Kershaw's "A Brief History of the Roman Empire" which I found an excellent read, and one I'd recommend highly.

I look forward to reading "The Search for Atlantis".

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Kal
10/11/2018 12:22:28 pm

It's nice to know sometimes there is good news in the literary fringe field. I might have to seek this one out.

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AmericaCool"Disco"Dan
10/11/2018 05:49:30 pm

"Finally, the author is quite clearly concerned by contemporary politics, and phrases from recent political discourses and references to Internet discussions pop up more than they should."

I thought that was okay in This Age of Trump?

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JaredMithrandir
10/11/2018 09:42:06 pm

Does the book cover the history of Atlantis in North West Africa theories? They first pop up in the late 1800s but have gained a recent upsurge in popularity due to Fringe YouTUbe's recent Richat Structure fixation.

I suppose that would hurt the "it's all White Supremacist propaganda" narrative.

I rhetorically discus it here.
https://mithrandironchronology.blogspot.com/2018/09/the-richat-structure-as-atlantis-theory.html

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AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/11/2018 11:58:31 pm

Wow. It's almost like you think Moroccans or anyone else consider Moroccans to be black.

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JaredMithrandir
10/12/2018 12:46:19 am

Their indigenous population certainly isn't White.

And the Richat Structure theories includes citing how common twins are in Nigeria.

Americancool"disco"Dan
10/12/2018 01:15:19 am

Nazi much? They're as Caucasian as anyone who'd say they're not White. What about Tanmaster George Hamilton? White or Black? Quick!!

JaredMithrandir
10/12/2018 02:13:02 am

I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore. Do you honestly think Berbers are classified as White?

No I'm not a Nazi since I ultimately reject the idea of Race altogether. We all descend from Adam and Eve.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/12/2018 08:05:23 am

Even though Berber isn't an ethnicity? In the sense of Caucasoid as opposed to Negroid, the answer in general is yes.

Are you saying Berbers are black?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers#/media/File:Zinedine_Zidane_20minutos.jpg

V
10/12/2018 12:42:44 pm

Jared, it's almost like you think the Atlantis myth of modern day even remotely thinks that any indigenous population actually BUILT Atlantis.

JaredMithrandir
10/13/2018 03:16:34 am

The people specifically talking about the Richat Structure are tying it to the indigenous population.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/13/2018 09:12:47 am

And who do they say was the "indigenous population" 90 million years ago Loony Tunes?

JaredMithrandir
10/13/2018 12:51:30 pm

The people who now live in Nigeria.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/13/2018 01:16:57 pm

What part of "90 million years ago" eludes your comprehension, Loony Tunes?

T. Franke link
10/13/2018 01:27:26 pm

@JaredMithrandir:

You cannot take certain guys here seriously. Let them play their silly games. Atlantis skepticism is no entrance card to the society of intelligent people.

Your idea is very interesting.

The idea of Nigerians as Atlanteans goes back to the German scholar Leo Frobenius in the 1920s. Frobenius indeed spoke out against racism and against the idea that only white men (and women) could build a higher civilization. He was acquainted with the exiled German emperor Wilhelm II and met him several times in his exile in the Netherlands. Together, they lauhged about the silly Nazis who thought only white people can build civilizations. This does not mean that they two were free of racist ideas, especially in modern terms. But you cannot avoid to have some sympathy with their view in this case.

Nevertheless, also this Atlantis location is wrong. At least, it is just another example that Atlantis could be used as an argument against racism.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/13/2018 03:55:49 pm

"@JaredMithrandir:

You cannot take certain guys here seriously."

Verbum sap.

What part of "90 million years ago" eludes your comprehension, Loony Tunes?

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/14/2018 12:18:42 am

"T. FRANKELINK
10/13/2018 01:27:26 pm
@JaredMithrandir:

You cannot take certain guys here seriously. Let them play their silly games. Atlantis skepticism is no entrance card to the society of intelligent people."

@T. Franke:

You're snuggling up with someone who thinks Nigerians 90 MILLION YEARS AGO created what is obviously a geological event. That's "no entrance card to the society of intelligent people". Of course I understand your genetic disposition to bark "Papers, please!" but I thought we had bombed that out of you people.

T. Franke link
10/12/2018 08:01:21 am

I ordered the book recently, but it has not arrived, yet. For the moment, I can contribute only my review of Kershaw's book about Atlantis from last year (and I have the strong feeling that in principle the contents of the new book are quite similar to the book from last year).

My review of Kershaw 2017:
https://atlantis-scout.de/kershaw-brief-history-atlantis-review-engl.htm

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Frank
10/12/2018 10:13:42 am

Come on, Franke, are you wanting to compete with Jason on reviewing books? You need to stay out, since you have a dog in the fight, when it comes to Atlantis. Your assessment is contaminated by your long and obsessive infatuation of hunting down Atlantis. And you want to find both, a real Atlantis, and an allegorical one. In other words, like a gambler at a casino's roulette wheel, you are placing simultaneous and equal bets on red and black.

You did come here to contribute, as you seem to be like a child competing for attention, and come here pleading, please come to my site, as I too review Kershaw.

But to be completely objective, as far as having dogs in the fight, Jason has a different hound in the fight, a very skeptical one, which only hounds the hunters of Atlantis.

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Americancool"Disco"Dan
10/12/2018 06:05:37 pm

OMFG I just looked at Franke's review. He's a right whiny nancymary in the first two paragraphs and the rest is just his usual stuff reheated after it's started to go moldy.

This is not a review so much as a polemic, and all of Franke's usual stuff is there. Herodotus! Look! Something shiny! He's especially butthurt that his own book was not cited.

My favorite bit:
"So you have to read through lengthy footnotes given in small print at the end of the book, which is very annoying."

SMFH.

Jason Colavito link
10/12/2018 12:10:10 pm

I believe the book I reviewed is the American edition of the British volume you reviewed. Given the British spellings in the new book, I will guess that it is exactly the same.

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T. Franke link
10/12/2018 01:52:59 pm

@Jason Colavito:

You are exactly right. The book arrived today. What a disappointing experience. There was not the least hint that this book it the same book. Even the copyright page is absolutely silent about the fact.

It reminds me of the repeated exercise of pseudoscientists who edit their books time and again under various titles.

I will have a closer look, whether it is really the same for 100%. Sometimes, even small differences are telling.

@Frank:

There is no competition. The more reviews the better. There is no reason not to point to my review. It was clear from the beginning, that the contents of the books are similar. Now we know that they are even equal.

Where is your contribution to increase our knowledge, Frank? Is there any? Point us to it!

Jason Colavito link
10/12/2018 02:35:46 pm

I didn't even remember the British version until you mentioned it here, and you're right that the copyright page didn't disclose the information, which is deceptive.

Frank
10/12/2018 09:05:13 pm

Herr Franke asked this. "Where is your contribution to increase our knowledge, Frank? Is there any? Point us to it! "

My dear Franke, my contributions is of meager quantity and quality, as I have contributed only by my "praises" of you, who are a great contributor to all this nonsense of finding Plato's Atlantis.

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T. Franke link
10/14/2018 02:28:43 pm

I examined the UK and the US version carefully for differences, now. It is really just the same book, page by page, word by word, including bibliography and index. Let us have a closer look at the changes:

Author:
- UK: "Stephen P. Kershaw"
- US: "Steve P. Kershaw, Ph.D."

Obviously, the "Ph.D" shall suggest academic competence, and "Steve" sounds more American than "Stephen"?

Title:
- UK: "A brief history of Atlantis -- Plato's ideal state"
- US: "The search for Atlantis -- A history of Plato's ideal state"

The US title inserts the aspect of "search". Both versions contain the heavy mistake to suggest to the readers that Atlantis represented Plato's ideal state.

Blurb:
- UK: The emphasis is completely on contemporary politics and "Trumpism". First sentence of the blurb in style of a headline is: "Why today's leaders should pay heed to Plato's tales of an ideal state, and its ruin." Further: "contemporary relevance", and: "post-truth world", and: "should be prescribed reading for every political leader."
- US: The US blurb puts the emphasis on the aspect of the search, on open questions, and even omits completely that the basic idea of this book is that Atlantis is an invention and nothing more. In the jacket's inside blurb, one sentence of the British version is repeated: "... should be prescribed reading for every political leader." And then the question follows, whether Atlantis is history or a parable, and this question is left open, as if the book left this question open.

Obviously, the US edition eliminated everything which could be understood as criticism of the Trump presidency, and wants to attract the supporters of the existence of Atlantis, by suggesting that the book is about search, about open questions, and by not giving any hint that this book proclaims a very clear and one-sided message: Atlantis is an invention, and Atlantis searchers are not very intelligent, or even evil.

Also the biographical text about the author has been shortened by ca. 50%, but no special observation, here.

So, my review about the UK version is fully fitting to the US version, too, including all page numbers:
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/kershaw-brief-history-atlantis-review-engl.htm

Some notes on Jason's review:

Cit.: "Kershaw’s claim that Plato intended the Atlantis story to be an uproariously funny joke"

Here we are at a crucial point. It is quite clear that Kershaw draws the picture of a Noble Lie, while at the same time there is the idea of a big joke recognizable to everybody. Yet, it cannot be both. This is one of the major flaws of many (not all) Atlantis skeptics, that they are so sure of their idea, that they do not realize the necessity to be consistent in their hypothezising. They do not realize that they really have to argue seriously for their claim that Atlantis is an invention because this is not self-evident.

Cit.: "As his tale proceeds chronologically, it grows darker. ... and he makes no bones about the way nineteenth and twentieth century thinkers explicitly transformed the story into a racial narrative designed to justify Aryan supremacy."

Some thinkers did (if one really wants to call them "thinkers"), others did not. And since "the Nazis" did not make use of the Atlantis story (Kershaw screws this up in a "History Channel" like manner), the whole climax is wrong. What really happened is, that academic scholarship stopped discussing about Atlantis as a real place in a short-sighted way in the 19th century, thus leaving the topic to pseudoscience of all sorts. Look when Donnelly and Blavatsky started their march of triumph: Why exactly at this point in time? There is a reason: It is because academic scholarship left the topic to them.

Cit.: "It is also impressive that Kershaw resists the pressure from the public and publishers to make the Atlantis story “fun.”"

I suggest to think about the possibility, that Kershaw just complies with the expectations of another audience. It is a kind of "History Channel" for the "other" side: "Atlantis and the Nazis" is really not well-researched in this book, but simple sensationalism without appropriate backup in reality.

Cit.: "The association between Atlantis and imperialism is always quite clear" and: "the Victorians"

I disagree. I still have not found any such imperialistic or Victorian author, except some late Spanish authors of no importance who wrote a long time after the Spanish conquest of America was done without Atlantis as the basic idea. My statemenet is: Imperialism did not make use of the Atlantis story. Maybe the cruisades according to an interpretation of William of Conches (but this is not certain).

Cit.: "one of the best, most thorough, and most deeply researched examinations of the history of the idea of Atlantis."

I disagree. Kershaw just repeats Vidal-Naquet's approach, only supplemented by some more authors. I suggest to stay with Vidal-Naquet who had deeper insight in Plato's thinking. This can be see

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T. Franke link
10/14/2018 02:32:57 pm

(Continuation of this longer posting:)

... This can be seen e.g. at Vidal-Naquet's judgement that the invention of Atlantis is a "perversity" considering the rest of Plato's thought and work. I can fully agree with VN in this point: The invention of Atlantis does not fit into the picture of Plato's thought and work, it really would be an astonishing intellectuall perversity.

By the way, my own book on the history of the ideas about Atlantis has 600 pages, i.e. 200 pages more as Kershaw's, it has more authors, many more deeper insights and connections between the various authors, it has ancient authors never mentioned before, and even authors from the Middle Ages, of which Kershaw obviously erroneous believes (like Vidal-Naquet) that nobody wrote about Atlantis in the Middle Ages. And my book does even more: It draws the history of Atlantis skepticism, and it is not a nice story. And my book received some appraisal by academic scholars. The only problem for most readers in this forum: It is written in German.
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-geschichte-hypothesen.htm

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Bezalel
10/14/2018 05:30:15 pm

"...This is one of the major flaws of many (not all) Atlantis skeptics, that they are so sure of their idea, that they do not realize the necessity to be consistent in their hypothezising. They do not realize that they really have to argue seriously for their claim that Atlantis is an invention because this is not self-evident."

100% wrong in both sentences, false equivalency.

The meaning of "consistent in hypothezising" is in one word: UNSCIENTIFIC

A. "there is no evidence that aliens are visiting us"
B. "there is no evidence that aliens are NOT visiting us

In Science, which permeates every line of enquiry, "A" and "B" are not equivalent. It is backward to think so. Rather, "B" is bullshit before it's even shat and the burden of proof resides with those making the extraordinary claim:

Jesus rose from the dead (bullshit)
Atlantis really existed (bullshit)
Aliens are visiting us (bullshit)
Pyramid was not built by humans (bullshit)
Mermaids live in the ocean (bullshit)
Beings live on Mars (bullshit)

Should I go on?

Right or wrong, one cannot ignore the last 300 years of accumulated scientific knowledge. This has inertia, weight, steadfastness, pick your analogy.

It is therefore very LIKELY that Atlantis is a myth, allegory, etc and is not real; until enough physical EVIDENCE is uncovered and considered, it will remain so. Therefore, Atlantis is by default, an invention until proven otherwise.

The idea that one can work the other way around: "Atlantis was real and you must prove it wasn't" is not legitimate; learn it, do it, taste it, smell it, be it, fuck it.

Stop writing
Get Science
Get it now

Then you can write and we'll read it.

T. Franke link
10/14/2018 05:54:57 pm

@Bezalel:

Thank you for your contribution. I have the strong feeling, that there is a misunderstanding here. You put the Atlantis question in one row with, in your words: "extraordinary" claims.

The key question is: Is it really an extraordinary claim that Atlantis was real? -- In a literalist reading, it obviously is. There never was an Atlantis as Plato described it, literally, and to claim otherwise, is extraordinary bullshit.

But the key question is, whether the literalist way of reading the story really is appropriate. Also Herodotus describes a country and a history of this country, and sizes of buildings in this country, and distances of towns in this country, and customs of this country, etc., which do not fit to any historical country in the world. Yet, everybody agrees that Herodotus talked of Egypt, really of Egypt, and that he just made mistakes, and that these mistakes can be recognized and explained by the context.

And nobody says, that it is an extraordinary claim that Herodotus' Egypt is the real Egypt.

I agree with you, Bezalel, that extraordinary claims have a heavy burden of proof. But I disagree that the Atlantis question counts in this number of extraordinary claims, as long as it is not a literalist bullshit.

You wrote: "In Science, which permeates every line of enquiry" -- IMHO, science does not do that in case of Plato's Atlantis. The historical-critical approach is not researched seriously, but often ridiculed. And this ridiculing results in mistakes. There are many mistakes in academic publications concerning the Atlantis question.

And YES, scientists do have to ensure that their hypotheses are consistent! YES, they have to argue seriously for their claims, even if they are absolutely certain about the case. Evertyhing else is Bullshit.

I really wonder how you can dare to question the necessity that scientists have to put forward claims with are consistent and seriously argued. If you stop doing this, you open the gate for mistakes of all sorts. You even will never realize that your basic claim is wrong.

You described exactly the unscientific arrogance of certain (not all) Atlantis skeptics, Bezalel. You really should re-consider your philosophy of science.

T. Franke link
10/14/2018 06:08:23 pm

@Bezalel:

PS: You wrote: "Right or wrong, one cannot ignore the last 300 years of accumulated scientific knowledge. This has inertia, weight, steadfastness, pick your analogy."

The idea that Atlantis is simply an invention prevailed only in the 2nd half of the 19th century. Before that, academic scholarship was divided. And before, let's say 1800, the idea that Atlantis is real prevailed in academic scholarship.

So, there are no 300 years of accumulated scientific knowledge. It's rather 150 years. And in these 150 years, the accumulation of arguments against the existence of Atlantis is astonishingly poor, I dare to say. The same oversimplistic arguments all the time. Rarely an innovation.

There was real progress only in one question: The literalist reading is not possible.

And what is "knowledge"? Science does never create "knowledge". It creates hypotheses and well-based theories, but never secured knowledge. No scientific theory can make itself immune against criticism and tumbling down and being replaced by a better one. You really should read a book about the philosophy of science! You are in heavy need of it!

Frank
10/15/2018 10:36:10 am

The great pretender, Herr Franke. So you are now reviewing Jason's review? How wonderful a contribution this is, as your swelled head wants to tell here that, anything Jason can do, you can do better. Is that it, O great contributor to human knowledge? You say that your book has more pages, more sources, more and deeper insight, and more connections, which others have not. Is more always better than less, o great "knower" of Plato's mind? In your case and book, is more nonsense better than Kershaw's? There are times when less is more. From you, my dear Thorwald, we shall have less, because you cannot reason yourself out of all that silly ambition, false sense of grandeur, and the hypocrisy you have wrapped yourself in. And most of all, you do not know Plato at all, as you are completely blind to Plato's philosophy. If you understood Plato, you would not be advocating the quantitative "more" in lieu of the qualitative "less". Because anyone within "the society of intelligent people" knows that it's not a matter of more or less, but rather a matter of being "just" enough, when it comes to Plato.

The PROBLEM for most readers in this forum is not the language your "book" is written in, but rather the same problem in any language. Without having read your book, but having a good sample of what you are like, I would venture to say that the real problem is that your book must be full of biased nonsense, historical nonsense, critically speaking.

Why don't you plead with Jason, so that he will review for us your "great" and wonderful, many paged, book full of more authors and more "knowledgeable" insight. Jason is multilingual, and German may be one of the languages he is proficient in. But if not, why don't you perform a self review for us? But can you be objective with yourself?

T. Franke link
10/15/2018 02:55:48 pm

@Frank:

You repeatedly try to impute a vain attitude of "grandeur" to me. My fear is that some day somebody will believe this nonsense.

And you repeatedly ignore the simple fact that scholars started to take my work seriously, spent some praise in general, and also did acknowledge parts of my theses in particular. Just look here
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-geschichte-hypothesen.htm
and here
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis_aristotle.htm

And may I point your attention to a scholarly review of Vidal-Naquet's history of the idea of Atlantis (on which Kershaw's is based), and which is not very pleasant?
http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2008/2008-08-22.html

But you keep on spreading nonsense. There is a "grandeur" of defamation and slander, and this is your "grandeur".

Bezalel
10/15/2018 10:35:05 pm

@ T.FRANKE

Misconstrue much?
You should re-read carefully my words above, you are passing over things too easily. I did not argue for literalist interpretations. Learn Allegory; F. Bacon figured it out

You definitely have more to read, whether Science, Philosophy of Science or Science History. Is your library chock full of only seemingly valuable references, or just the critical few 1000 or so?

T. Franke link
10/16/2018 05:00:39 pm

@Bezalel:

Yes, allegory is a possibility. But not the only one.

Most supporters of an allegory argue in the following way: It cannot be true in a literalist sense, so it must be an allegory. But this "tertium non datur" would make Herodotus' Egypt an allegory. (Although I have to admit that Herodotus' histories would serve very well as an allegory! As does Plato's Atlantis.)

There are more than only these two possibilities.

You should read about historical criticism, and about the exemplary studies of Herodotus' mistakes, and why he made them, and about the geographical horizon of Plato, and of the Egyptians at various times, and about the special conditions of Saitic Egypt and its relationship to the Greeks. In short: You need context in order to interprete the Atlantis story correctly.

You also should read the Atlantis story in its original language, to overcome mistakes in translations.

May I offer you one of my books where I (partly) did the job already? "Mit Herodot auf den Spuren von Atlantis", in German. Should not be a problem for you.
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis_herodot.htm

Further useful readings for you could be: Karl Popper, or: Thomas S. Kuhn.

Francis Bacon wrote in his "New Atlantis" that he saw (the old) Atlantis as a real place in America, as many did in his times. His "new" Atlantis is a kind of exemplary vision for what will be possible in the future by applying science (so not really an utopia, by the way).

PS: I think I have to accept Americancool's "Today's English lesson", see below. There is always something to learn, and nobody is perfect. Thank you AmericancoolXYZ, this was helpful.

AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/15/2018 06:35:58 pm

Today's English lesson:

Defamation is not necessarily untrue; and
Slander is spoken not written.

The problem as I see it is you present yourself as a pompous ass who says the same thing over and over and is always trying to shoehorn his website into the discussion.

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Frank
10/16/2018 06:24:33 pm

Thorwald Franke,

You told Bezalel that, "There are more than only these two possibilities." Which was referring to Atlantis as being true in a literal way, or being an allegory.

Perhaps there is more than these two options, However, if there is, and it's a big if, then your idiotic hypothesis is not one of them. You are lost and ridiculed in a world of skeptics, and you are shunned in a world of Atlantologists. Why? You don't fit in either world. You are half sheep and half wolf, where the skeptics are wolves and the Atlantologists are sheep. The wolves are hungry and see you as a full sheep, and the sheep see you as a full wolf because they are scared.

You don't understand Plato because you only accept part of him and not the whole. You don't accept all of Plato's stories either. Your only interest is his Atlantis story, which you have surmised, and argue that it "must" contain some truth to it, since Plato is telling us, within the story, that it is true. But even here you are merely lukewarm, as you do accept it as being literal, and only take a part of the story, which you then contort to make it fit your silly ideas, which are not even original.

You believe yourself to be a great scholar since you have put to shame all those that proposed that Aristotle was an Atlantis skeptic. But you have never made a case that would convince an unbiased jury in a courtroom, where Aristotle accepts the story of Atlantis as being true, literally or partially. An Aristotle on the witness stand, and under oath (his extant writings) has never mentioned Atlantis by name, nor referenced specific passages from the Timaeus, or Critias related to the story. But yet Aristotle does vividly, and clearly cites the main body of the Timaeus dialogue, which is not dealing with the Atlantis story, and gives us his opinion on what Plato wrote in the Timaeus.

Therefore everybody, Atlantis skeptics and believers alike, like Jesus told the church of Laodicea, will spit you out of their mouth. Or rather spit out sarcasm and insults at you.

I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! So because you are lukewarm — neither hot nor cold — I am about to spit you out of My mouth! You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked.… You, my grand pretender, herr Franke, have contributed nothing to human knowledge. Garbage is no contribution, unless it goes to make methane gas, you fart!

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AmericanCool"Disco"Dan
10/16/2018 09:28:38 pm

Hunting a housefly with a hand grenade, but well written!

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Bezalel
10/17/2018 06:38:07 am

Aquila non capit muscas

T. Franke link
10/17/2018 09:29:18 am

@Frank:

What a heap of nonsense and misunderstandings, again!

What a heap of misinformation and wrong accusations, again!

What a heap of distasteful and intemperate (!) thoughts, again!

Your postings reveal so much more about you than about me.

Come on, just another round!

Do not stop, now!

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Frank
10/17/2018 03:10:20 pm

I'm not stopping, as I will keep jabbing at you, if you ask. But for the big blows, since you say I have nothing to contribute, I'm just going to wait for Jason's review of your great contribution to human knowledge, as I'm certain he will land plenty of BIG blows on your hypothesis. Which you claim to be the one and only resolution to the great riddle of Plato's Atlantis.

And since you pretend to know Plato's mind on Atlantis, and you consider this knowledge of yours a great, "valuable" contribution to human history, do you really know what Plato considered as "valuable" knowledge? You don't even understand his cave allegory, nor believe the truth of its meaning, when told to you. How could you then even understand his Atlantis story? Impossible!

That is the way in which you ought to answer, Thorwald, and not in your former hesitating strain, " Yes, allegory is a possibility. But not the only one." For if we are bold we shall gain one of two advantages; either we shall find what we seek, or we shall be less likely to think that we know what we do not know–in either case we shall be richly rewarded. And now, what are you saying?–Are there not only two sorts of opinion on Atlantis, one true and the other false; and do you define your "knowledge" of an Atlantis in Sicily to be a third, one that is both true and false?

You seek an alternative option to the only two possibilities because you cannot crack Plato's coded descriptions and details. You do not understand Plato. You assume to know Plato's mind, but you are not even remotely close to the real Atlantis. Both sides have some corroborating rationale for their opinion, and therefore you have elected a middle road for getting at Atlantis, thinking it to be a correct choice. You pride yourself of having found a solution to please both sides. But in reality you and your borrowed ideas, used in constructing your hypothesis on Plato's intended Atlantis, don't appeal to either side. You may have received some small recognition and kudos from others who place some credibility to the story of Atlantis, but if we consider who these are, and their knowledge and views on Atlantis, it is not worth much.

Franke, you are a sluggard, because you cannot understand Plato, and therefore are not able to, literally, accept what he says about Atlantis, and therefore you think you have discovered an easy going shortcut to take. Plain and simple, it's one or the other, wholly True or wholly allegory. There are no "middle" shortcuts.

Thorwald, you claim to believe the story of Atlantis as being true, albeit part true, because Plato says it is a true story through his characters. Well are you consistent? Will you not believe that there is some kind of truth in the following, since we have Plato making Socrates say that he is telling us another true story?

SOCRATES: In order that I might make another simile about you. For I know that all pretty young gentlemen like to have pretty similes made about them–as well they may–but I shall not return the compliment. As to my being a torpedo, if the torpedo is torpid as well as the cause of torpidity in others, then indeed I am a torpedo, but not otherwise; for I perplex others, not because I am clear, but because I am utterly perplexed myself. And now I know not what virtue is, and you seem to be in the same case, although you did once perhaps know before you touched me. However, I have no objection to join with you in the enquiry.
MENO: And how will you enquire, Socrates, into that which you do not know? What will you put forth as the subject of enquiry? And if you find what you want, how will you ever know that this is the thing which you did not know?
SOCRATES: I know, Meno, what you mean; but just see what a tiresome dispute you are introducing. You argue that a man cannot enquire either about that which he knows, or about that which he does not know; for if he knows, he has no need to enquire; and if not, he cannot; for he does not know the very
subject about which he is to enquire.
MENO: Well, Socrates, and is not the argument sound?
SOCRATES: I think not.
MENO: Why not?
SOCRATES: I will tell you why: I have heard from certain wise men and women who spoke of things divine that–
MENO: What did they say?
SOCRATES: They spoke of a glorious TRUTH, as I conceive.
MENO: What was it? and who were they?
SOCRATES: Some of them were priests and priestesses, who had studied how they might be able to give a reason of their profession: there have been poets also, who spoke of these things by inspiration, like Pindar, and many others who were inspired. And they say–mark, now, and see whether their words are true–they say that the soul of man is immortal, and at one time has an end, which is termed dying, and at another time is born again, but is never destroyed. And the moral is, that a man ought to live always in perfect holiness. ’For in the ninth year Persephone sends the souls of tho

Reply
T. Franke link
10/17/2018 04:06:04 pm

@Frank:

I do not take a "middle" road.

To the contrary, it is one of the pet hypotheses of academic Atlantis skeptics that the lines of mythos and logos are blurred in Plato's dialogues. They are the ones who try to take a "middle" road. Not me.

Come on, just another round!
Do not stop, now!

Reply
Frank
10/17/2018 11:58:08 pm

You are already so drunk that you cannot stand on your own two feet. Or rather you cannot stand on your own hypothesis, which falls down so easily when a little logic is used to lean on it.

No more rounds, the bar is now closing, and this is the last call, as you did not answer my questions on whether or not you were consistent in believing everything that Plato referred to as true had some truth to it. Nor did you answer my question on knowing, above all, what knowledge Plato considered as "valuable" and needed to be known by man. This is the kind of knowledge that is, indeed, a contribution to human knowledge.

But don't you have your own site where you can go all the rounds you want? Don't you have an open forum of your own, where you can entertain a crowd of "intellectual" Atlantologists, like yourself, with your great contribution to human knowledge, and exchange an insult or two?

Apparently you have no home of your own, and like those traveling sophists, you go around these kind of forums trying to sell your "wisdom" on Atlantis. Don't you know that Socrates did not believe that Poets and Sophists could entertain him?

SOCRATES: Then have I now given you all the heads of our yesterday’s discussion? Or is there anything more, my dear Timaeus, which has been omitted?
TIMAEUS: Nothing, Socrates; it was just as you have said.
SOCRATES: I should like, before proceeding further, to tell you how I feel about the State which we have described. I might compare myself to a person who, on beholding beautiful animals either created by the painter’s art, or, better still, alive but at rest, is seized with a desire of seeing them in motion or engaged in some struggle or conflict to which their forms appear suited; this is my feeling about the State which we have been describing. There are conflicts which all cities undergo, and I should like to hear someone tell of our own city carrying on a struggle against her neighbors, and how she went out to war in a becoming manner, and when at war showed by the greatness of her actions and the magnanimity of her words in dealing with other cities a result worthy of her training and education. Now I, Critias and Hermocrates, am conscious that I myself should never be able to celebrate the city and her citizens in a befitting manner, and I am not surprised at my own incapacity; to me the wonder is rather that the poets present as well as past are no better–not that I mean to depreciate them; but everyone can see that they are a tribe of imitators, and will imitate best and most easily the life in which they have been brought up; while that which is beyond the range of a man’s education he finds hard to carry out in action, and still harder adequately to represent in language. I am aware that the Sophists have plenty of brave words and fair conceits, but I am afraid that being only wanderers from one city to another, and having never had habitations of their own, they may fail in their conception of philosophers and statesmen, and may not know what they do and say in time of war, when they are fighting or holding parley with their enemies.

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