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Review of The UnXplained S02E10 "The Search for Atlantis"

1/23/2021

46 Comments

 
Picture
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William Shatner’s The UnXplained comes from the same producers that gave us Ancient Aliens, In Search of Aliens, Curse of Oak Island, and The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch. Bad ideas, poor research, and lies are original sin indivisible from the program’s halfhearted attempts to be slightly less outrageous than its loudmouthed sister shows. Shatner himself is a longtime enthusiast for the paranormal, lending his voice to programs about the extraterrestrial and supernatural since the 1970s. I don’t regularly watch The UnXplained because it rarely covers topics of interest to me. This episode, however, explored Atlantis, an I was disappointed to see that Prometheus Entertainment, the company behind so many bad shows, simply pasted this together from spare parts of other bad shows—citing them as evidence that “some” believe extreme idea that Prometheus’s own shows promoted!
Right from the beginning, the show wrongly identifies Atlantis as “the city of the future,” which is not what Plato writes. (As we’ll see later, Shatner’s narration is meant to tie Atlantis to, of all things, EPCOT Center at Disney World, a project of the History Channel’s ultimate parent company, Disney.) Shatner asserts that Atlantis might have flown off into the sky, which is again not a Greek story but one proposed by sister show Ancient Aliens back in 2010. The History Channel fever swamp is now self-referential and mutually reinforcing.
 
The usual History Channel loons are on, with depressing familiarity, along with Richard Freund, who proposed in a National Geographic documentary a much-criticized claim that Atlantis was the biblical Tarshish and located in Spain, is on. Jonathan Young, ancient astronaut theorist from Ancient Aliens is on. Lynn Picknett, Templar conspiracy theorist from Ancient Aliens is on. Andrew Collins, a lost civilization conspiracy theorist, is on. Nephilim-giant conspiracy theorist Hugh Newman from Ancient Aliens and Search for the Lost Giant was on. William Henry from Ancient Aliens is on to claim that space aliens “mated” with human women and engaged in “genetic engineering.”
 
The various ignoramuses, liars, and grifters repeat Plato’s account of Atlantis and then compare Atlantis to Troy, the city that had never really been lost but which Heinrich Schliemann convinced the world only he had ever taken seriously. “Every metaphor has at its base a nucleus of historical information,” Freund lies. He is obviously wrong since there are some ancient “metaphors” that are obviously untrue: Euhemerus’ Panchaea, Lucians’s voyage to the moon. There is no reason to assume Atlantis is true without assuming the others are true, too.

The show calls Atlantis: The Antediluvian World author Ignatius Donnelly an “amateur scientist”—he was actually a congressman and never claimed to be a scientist—and exaggerates his “obsession” with Atlantis to propose that he was a sort of sainted ancestor to today’s internet obsessives. He spent only a couple of years of his life on Atlantis. He was much more interested in the question of who really wrote Shakespeare’s plays, and, of course, scheming for political power.
 
The show’s second segment recaps Freund’s Atlantis-in-Spain hypothesis and the 2011 documentary (and 2017 recycling) but fails to acknowledge adequately Spanish archaeologists’ condemnation of Freund’s deceptive ideas and what they considered unethical behavior. Then in the third segment Shatner recycles claims about Atlantis you previously saw on a 2014 episode of In Search of Aliens about Peter Daughtrey’s claim that Atlantis is in Portugal. I read Daughtrey’s book about it in 2013 and considered it so poorly reasoned and so lacking in evidence that I didn’t find it worthy to review. And yet it keeps coming back. As I said in 2014, “Daughtrey’s ideas are simply efforts to correlate various facets of Plato with his preferred location for Atlantis, ignoring what he doesn’t like.”
 
We also hear about the 2015 news report that orichalcum had been found, and Freund giggles like Jerry Lewis, telling us, basically, “Hey, lady! We found it!” Except what they found was a Greco-Roman brass known as orichalcum in later Antiquity, while Plato used the word to refer to a mythological substance, second in value only to gold, that was rather obviously not a copper-zinc alloy like the one found in Sicily in 2015.
 
The next segment discusses so-called prophet Edgar Cayce’s “prophecies” and his visions of an advanced Atlantis with death rays. The show declines to note that Cayce himself literally cited his claims to Theosophical sources and the book Dweller on Two Planets (reading 364-1). Andrew Collins tries to make the case that his own Atlantis book is correct at Atlantis is in Cuba. The evidence he offers is that Cuban cave art has circles in it and Atlantis was a circle. Oh, the tingles! Collins claims that in 1552 Francisco López de Gómara claimed that Native Americans had a tradition in Cuba that the Caribbean islands had all split from a lost continent and were therefore Atlantis. He actually said this: “But there is now no cause why we should any longer doubt or dispute of the Island Atlantide, forasmuch as the discovering and conquest of the west Indies do plainly declare what Plato hath written of the said lands. In Mexico also at this day they call that water Atl, [by the half name of Atlantis,] as by a word remaining of the name of the Island that is not” (trans. Richard Eden). He was also writing of Mexico. Not the same. We also get the usual fringe claim that the end of the Ice Age flooded Atlantis when the glaciers raised the ocean levels. Of course, that didn’t happen in a day and a night, so Plato is wrong in order to be right.
 
The next segment just outright presents the ancient astronaut theory and alleges (in the form of a question that is not really a question) that Atlantis was founded and ruled by space aliens. The show makes much of Atlantis being founded by a god, but it omits the obvious that every Greek city claimed a divine or heroic founder. Athens had its patron, Athena, for example. The B-roll confuses Atlas, the son of Poseidon, with the Titan Atlas who held up the heavens. Shatner, who narrated UFO documentaries long before I was born, calls the ancient astronaut theory “fascinating,” and then Henry repeats the Ancient Aliens claim that Atlantis was an E.T. mothership that flew into the sky. Obviously, Plato can’t be telling the truth if this “audacious” idea were true, which gets back into the trap of admitting that Plato was wrong in some measures and therefore can’t be reliable in others.
 
The final segment describes the Walt Disney’s Company’s EPCOT Center, originally envisioned as a prototype utopian city. Because it was based on a ring-and-spoke model (like Paris), the show claims Disney wanted to build “a modern-day Atlantis, perhaps without realizing it.” This has nothing to do with Atlantis as a historical place, any more than the Atlantis theme park in the Bahamas “speaks to the power of those models of utopian society” and the “elusive goal for mankind to achieve” that the show alleges—falsely—Plato’s Atlantis represents. Remember, Atlantis was the enemy in Plato’s stories, the evil example of a failed, corrupt state. Zeus literally plans its destruction in a story clearly borrowed from the Near East Flood Myth—you know, the one where God wipes away all the evil and corruption from the world to start anew. This is not an ideal to strive for, and had the brain trust behind this show and Ancient Aliens read Plato, they might have realized that.
 
But it’s probably about right for the History Channel to lust after an imagined golden age that never was in a warlike failed imperial state with divine pretentions. It’s very on-brand.
46 Comments
Imperio - Atlantis (1996)
1/23/2021 10:56:07 am

Imperio - Atlantis (1996)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_szuzGTwE

Reply
T. Franke link
1/23/2021 12:27:50 pm

Thank you Jason for the review. It is so disappointing. Ancient aliens and Edgar Cayce. Isn't it obvious that even the creators of this show do not believe in the possibilty of Atlantis as a real place? Because they have no clue of reading and interpreting ancient texts. It's only about modernist nonsense. Obviously, Plato's original text is completely hidden behind a curtain of utter nonsense. And isn't it funny that Freund accepts the description "metaphor" for Atlantis? Doesn't it become quite clear that also he is not convinced, but just plays a game? I never would accept "metaphor" or "allegory" as acceptable descriptions of Plato's Atlantis story.

I have recently written two reviews of Atlantis documentaries, they can be found here:

The Atlantis documentary of horror (Sci Fi Channel 2006):
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-docu-of-horror-2006-engl.htm

Again just the usual Atlantis documentary (German ZDF, 2020):
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-docu-2020-engl.htm

In the second review I added some thoughts about how a good Atlantis documentary should be made ("How a better Atlantis documentary could look like"). This is maybe the most interesting part. Because it seems that many even have not the least idea that it is not inevitable to connect Atlantis and nonsense, and how this could be done.

Reply
Brian
1/23/2021 12:33:08 pm

Media: Here, think this.
Population: Okay, sure.
Media: See, people think this!

Same exact tactic used by Cruz, Hawley, Johnson, et al.

Reply
Doug
2/19/2021 08:12:38 pm

I believe you mean same exact tactic used by CNN, CBS, ABC, Bisen, Harris, Pelosi, AOC, we al.

Reply
Crash55
1/23/2021 03:13:40 pm

I don’t understand the fascination with Atlantis, it is obvious it was meant as an allegory and not a real place.

If it was an advanced civilization as some claim then where are the traces of it? All I ever see are potential walls and some cave paintings. The paintings are definitely not evidence of high culture

Reply
T. Franke link
1/24/2021 07:13:05 pm

Crash55, "I don’t understand the fascination with Atlantis, it is obvious it was meant as an allegory and not a real place."

Well, I understand that you do not understand it, on the basis of this analysis. Yet still: The fascination is there and real. Where does it come from? Maybe your analysis is wrong? Maybe it is not as obvious as you think?

(But for this docu, I have the strong feeling that they exploited other fascinations, independent from the Atlantis fascination: Ancient alients, etc.)

Reply
Crash55
1/25/2021 08:55:35 am

T Franke,

I think I was a bit hasty in my comment.

I understand the fascination with a lost city. What I don't understand is the level of fascination with Atlantis. Over the years I have read enough from the scholarly angle to realize that it was never a real city unlike Troy.

To me the big issue I see is the lack of evidence outside of Plato. Where is the pottery or the mention in neighboring civs? The rock art in the program was laughable as that was obviously a civ far below the cultural level that Atlantis was supposed to be.

As for myself I would go with one of two options: 1. complete fantasy used to teach, or 2. a passed down memory of the Minoans which was then used to teach

Kent
1/25/2021 11:49:24 am

I will accept that Plato doesn't actually say Atlantis is an allegory (any more than the Lord of the Rings or Winnie the Pooh) which is by no means probative, but he does explicitly state early on that it's a story about a story about someone telling someone a story.

T. Franke link
1/25/2021 01:24:15 pm

Crash55, it is true, the Atlantis "finders" can rarely present real finds. More often than not they are quite happy that their Atlantis is buried under mud and sand and in deep sea. So they do not have to go into details.

If somebody presents an excavated civilization as Atlantis, there is more fairness in the game: It is fair to present something real, and you can make a judgement much more easily.

For me, it is quite difficult to understand how academics could ever fall for the easy solution to claim that there is nothing behind Plato's Atlantis, except inspirations. It has to do (among others) with the fashions of interpreting Platonic Myths, heavily varying over time. For example, there is a kind of "battle" between those who see free invention, against those who see Pythagorean content (not to speak of Orphic content). Plato is tossed to and fro by various disciplines and schools. Everybody wants to see his pet theory in Plato as enoblement.

IMHO the backgrounds of various Platonic Myths are very real (and the whole name "Platonic Myth" is not well-chosen), and this may be true also for the Atlantis story which shows remarkable correspondances with the Saitic period of Egypt, including the 9000 years which are for sure no invention but what Plato really believed.

I will soon publish a 300 pages book about Platonic Myths in general, but for the moment in German only.

T. Franke link
1/25/2021 05:40:54 pm

Kent, as does Herodotus. And Plato does this, too, in other contexts, where he e.g. points to Pythagoreans he got to know indirectly via friends from / in Southern Italy. And such literary devices had not been developed and established as fiction signals, in Plato's times. Have you ever read any ancient Greek historian or geographer? They are full of such statements. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I assume you thought your point to be self-evident. But it isn't. It would be in Lord of the Rings and Winnie Pooh. But not in Plato.

Crash55
1/25/2021 07:17:00 pm

T Franke,

I have yet to see "any" actual finds. Anything presented has been shown to be something else.

I wouldn't doubt that there is some truth behind the Atlantis myth. There was some city that was destroyed. Personally I think the Minoans are the most likely source. The other option is that it is based off a shared memory of the flooding of the Black Sea.

I don't believe that there is anything 9000 years before Plato. I know there was a theory that it was really 900 years before. That would bring it inline with the Minoans. Pavlopetri is about 5000 years old and sunken. Santorini blew up around 1550 BC. Minoan artifacts have been found in Mycenean graves. So really I think that the fall of the Minoans is the most likely "source" for Atlantis.

Danie
1/23/2021 03:50:41 pm

C'mon now, everyone knows that Atlantis didn't take off from Earth, it landed on Earth, the Pacific Ocean to be specific. But, it can cloak so no one can see it.

It came from the Pegasus Galaxy to get away from the energy vampires there, and is under the control of an international military/government organization that is based in Colorado Springs......

..........

..........

Such a good series of shows.

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The Rooster
1/23/2021 04:46:18 pm

OMG!

Just had an epiphany. Totally "Off-Topic", but Lovecraft.

What if Levenda hadn't penned the "Simon Necronomicon"?

What if? There wouldn't be any story, about that old bookstore.

We need to recover him from Tits&Ass, and welcome him back.

Let's give him a break. He's Fam.

❤️

Reply
The Rooster
1/23/2021 06:20:37 pm

Yeah? In hindsight? Levenda is a Stud.

We need to bring him back home. Rowing for The Argo.

Leave them, Peter. You are better than this.

🐔

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The Rooster
1/23/2021 06:48:56 pm

Let's give it it up for Pete!

Total act of Civil Disobedience!

Thanks, "Simon"!

😅😅😅

Clete
1/23/2021 11:16:44 pm

There is actually something that is more un-explained. How is it that William Shatner keeps finding work?

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Doc rock
1/24/2021 10:09:13 am

Star of a legendary TV series who has had repeated success on TV and the big screen for the last 50 years. Has nailed down the voice and dramatic delivery needed to sell bullshit ancient aliens narratives. Appeals to an older conservative crowd but will happily appear on Howard Stern and do petty humor.

People are practically required by law in the US to like the guy no matter what he is pushing.

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Anthony G.
1/25/2021 02:57:17 pm

You are leaving out "The Twilight Zone" appearance, "T. J. Hooker" and most iconic of all "Halloween". The signature Michael Myers mask is actually a William Shatner mask.

Doc rock
1/25/2021 08:19:22 pm

Anthony

It would be easy to leave out something from someone who has had 50 years of repeated success. That's why I said 50 years of repeated success and pretty much left it at that. But yeah, TJ Hooker was another show that kept him in the spotlight. He is the make version of Betty White, sorta..

Kent
1/25/2021 10:45:17 pm

@Anthony Warren: the "Twilight Zone" appearanceS.

Jim
1/24/2021 10:36:45 am

He must be still popular due to his masterful performance as Ranger Bob in the1954 series, the Howdy Doody show.
Who doesn't love Howdy Doody ?

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Machala
1/24/2021 11:02:30 am

That was actually Bob Smith who played Buffalo Bob, and Bob Keeshan played Clarabell the Clown on the Howdy Doody Show before going on to become Captain Kangaroo.

RCMP Officer Obvious
1/24/2021 11:32:03 am

How long before Joe Kent points out that Shatner is Canadian and tries to tie it to Justin Trudeau wearing blackface 20 years ago?

Jim
1/24/2021 04:23:35 pm

Machala, I was going by IMDb :

"Howdy Doody (TV Series)
Ranger Bob (1954) "

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000638/?ref_=nmbio_bio_nm

Iron E.
1/24/2021 10:57:35 am

" The various ignoramuses, liars, and grifters..."

I thought that was the Trump Administration?

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Rock Knocker
1/24/2021 11:26:06 am

It’s been years since I read Plato, but wasn’t he using “Atlantis” as an allegory about national/city state pride? I’m not sure its existence was ever meant to be taken seriously....not that the HC takes it very seriously here (I only managed to get through the first 20 minutes myself).

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T. Franke link
1/24/2021 07:10:20 pm

Rock Knocker, since you asked: The Atlantis story is not presented as an allegory by Plato. You may still think that it is meant as one, but different to other allegories Plato does not say so.

And it is not about national / city state pride. The proud and conservative city wins (Athens) whereas the progressive and decadent city falls (Atlantis).

Well, not quite the full truth: Athens falls, too, which makes it all more compliated. And this is the minimum I expect from a quality docu: That is shows the difficulties of interpretation. Instead they take refuge in nonsense.

"not that the HC takes it very seriously here"

I have not seen the docu, but you confirm my thoughts.

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charles verrastro link
1/24/2021 05:04:41 pm

Always found it fascinating how, after nearly a millennia, Atlantis suddenly morphed from Plato's description of a decadent but still mighty ancient society (although tiny Athens kicked their butts before Zeus punched their final ticket) to a society far more technologically advanced than even our present one.
BTW apropos of my recent comment on the old John Dee on America post, even Dee used the 'Atlantidae' and 'Atlantis' to refer to the Sub-Arctic islands and North Maerica landmass supposedly reached by pre-Columbian voyagers. And he was not the first, of course. Bacon too was leaning on an already old theme that the New World discoveries were the remnants of Atlantis.
As for Donnelly, he was the very image of the autodidactic crank. Jason is right, while he labored at the Library of Congress piecing out nuggets for his Atlantis books (while he should have been paying a bit more attention to his constituents) he spent the rest of his life on his Bacon as Shakespeare obsession. I happened to acquire many years ago his personal copy of his book on the codes and ciphers 'proving' his theory, and found copious marginalia and inserted notes often giving totally contradictory 'solutions' to various 'discoveries' with an eye towards an expanded future edition.

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Frank
1/25/2021 10:26:59 am

Atlantis, Atlantis, come out wherever you are!

That it's a true story, no one should doubt it solely on the basis of a bunch of blockheads, those looking, but who have no true understanding of where, when, and what Atlantis truly represents. The story of Atlantis is one of "days of future past."

As soon as the day broke, I rehearsed them as he spoke them to my companions, that they, as well as myself, might have something to say. And now, Socrates, to make an end of my preface, I am ready to tell you the whole tale. I will give you not only the general heads, but the particulars, as they were told to me. The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. Revelation 17:

The Mystery Explained
…10There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 12The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast.....

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Bob Jase
1/25/2021 06:23:32 pm

Why not search for the ancient Athens of 15000 years BC that was supposedly Atlantis' great enemy? We know where Athens is & always has been so finding it should be easy & would confirm Plato's story. Mebbe because ancient Athens of 150000 years BC is known to be fiction?

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T. Franke link
1/26/2021 11:20:45 am

Bob Jase, sure. There was nothing. Absolutely correct.

But .... if you apply the same question to the Histories of Herodotus, or the writings of Diodorus, or what-not, then you come up with an age of Egypt of 11,000 and more years, -- which means that there was no Egypt at this time, -- which means that Egypt does not exist.

But wait .... Egypt does exist! We know this, lucky as we are. There must be a mistake somewhere in this consideration.

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Frank
1/26/2021 12:37:38 pm

Thorwald, have you sold many of your books on Atlantis and Siracusa? You seem to know a great deal on Atlantis. And not only on what Plato intended, but also you propose to know on just about everyone who has had an hypothesis on the whereabouts of Atlantis, whether the hypothesis was a serious one or not.

However, I actually meant to reply in reference to Bob's excellent suggestion on locating the Athens said to have remained alone, after having been deserted by all the other Hellenes, and was able to accomplish what it could not with those allies, as She was victorious over Atlantis, and saved all those others within the pillars. Obviously Bob is not privy to the fact that many have, indeed, searched for that Athens, but only to come up empty-handed, as you confirm.

But why stop there, what of all those other Hellenes? And what of all those others mentioned? Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain all those different locations mentioned in the Timaeus? I mean the histories of those many other locations mentioned in the excerpt I'm posting. After all, Plato did not say that those others perished, as he mentioned only Athens' warlike men, and the "island" of Atlantis, as perishing.

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

T. Franke link
1/26/2021 02:59:30 pm

According to Plato, especially Egypt is still there, because it alone did not suffer from a catastrophe, as do all others from time to time. Yes, all others, in the eyes of Plato: "Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education" (Timaeus 23a). And Egypt preserved the story of Atlantis in written form. That is at least the assumption made in the narration by Plato.

From a modern point of view a simplistic assumption, but Plato is on the right track. Translated into modern view of history this simply means that it does not make sense to search Atlantis in a time before the foundation of Egypt and the invention of writing (happened more or less the in same centuries around 3000 BC). And it means that Plato's narration contains at least one truth: It is true that Egypt has quite a long continuity of history and writing, what others mostly do not have. (It seems that Plato had no idea of cuneiform writing.)

And therefore it is indeed reasonable for Plato to assume that he could use Egyptian writings to look into more ancient times than preserved in the Greek culture. In fact, we do this ourselves in modern Egyptology. Without ancient writings, we would not know about the battle of Kadesh and all the other events. We still apply Plato's method.

Barbara Lee (Duncan) West
1/25/2021 08:22:59 pm

I would rather believe Atlantis was James Churchward's "The lost Continent of MU". In his book, he mentions the Basque and others who were dispersed around the world having similar languages - including the Irish... I'll have to read more. Anyway, I'm Scots-Irish - DNA is R1b, same as the Basque..
I remember Edgar Cayce said people and animals were mating and monstrosities were being born. That may have been the reason behind the flood.
Anyway, you can take all this with a grain of salt...


Reply
Barbara West
2/11/2021 10:54:05 pm

Star Trek and Shatner, the Actor. When it first came on I watched every episode. Hank Scarborough at 13 (6' tall and 180 lbs. was his double and my boyfriend when I was 12, and living in Arkansas. For my health we left Arkansas and moved to California. I had Asthma very bad.
After I worked at Bell Helicopter in Mirabel, Canada, and took the snide remarks daily from my Canadian co-workers - i really lost any friendly feeling toward Shatner who was Canadian. The remark made most often was them saying how stupid Americans were for voting for Obama.

Reply
Frank
1/27/2021 05:41:04 pm

@T.Franke
"And Egypt preserved the story of Atlantis in written form."

Where in Egypt is this story preserved now? What language? Like Solon, I marvel at you words. And how do we justify the old and many times asked question? The fact that both Atlantis and their adversary, Athens, disappeared in the depths of the waters 9,000 years before Solon heard the story, and that the city of Saiis itself was not even founded for another 1,000 years? And how are we going to reconcile the other particular, which is that Athens went to war at the same time of having been founded? Perhaps Athens, like the goddess she was named after, Athena, was born fully incorporated, fully populated, and in fully dressed in battle attire, as another myth tells us about Athena's birth?
As Jowett put it: Solon marvelled at his words, and earnestly requested the priests to inform him exactly and in order about these former citizens. You are welcome to hear about them, Solon, said the priest, both for your own sake and for that of your city, and above all, for the sake of the goddess who is the common patron and parent and educator of both our cities. She founded your city a thousand years before ours (Observe that Plato gives the same date (9000 years ago) for the foundation of Athens and for the repulse of the invasion from Atlantis (Crit.).), receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your race, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred registers to be 8000 years old.

Serious Archeologists, Anthropologists, Historians, etc., will tell us that around 10,000 BC there were no known civilizations, let alone half a world full of them, as Plato puts it in the story of Atlantis. Anyway, these are not new observations, nor ones that have not been argued extensively by those for or against a real Atlantis. And these are just a few of many, many more contradictions given to us by Plato, if indeed, today, we do have faithful copies of the originals penned by Plato.

I'm surprised that you still come to this forum to discuss and comment on Atlantis, since you do still have your own website, right? Therefore why not invite others with similar interests to come to your site and have these type of discussions there, to our hearts desire? I for one would be more than glad to have serious discussions about Atlantis, if you had a blog open to comments. And you can be the ring master there, rather than just the animal feeder here, in this circus. Not to say that Jason is running a circus here, because he covers many topics, and not just Atlantis. Whereas you website is all about Atlantis, exclusively. However, Atlantis does get serious consideration here, as it's obvious that Jason is a most knowledgeable, and formidable skeptic, when it comes to accepting a real Atlantis, as detailed by Plato. The first thing Jason asks is, "show me the elephants."

Reply
Kent
1/28/2021 08:20:43 am

"Everybody wants to see his pet theory in Plato as enoblement."
- T. Franke

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Kent
1/28/2021 01:25:20 pm

This reminds me of something from back when I was reading Col. Jeff Cooper because as everyone knows, I am super tough.

"Cooper borrows the term “seeing the elephant” in the context of having found out how one actually performs under a real-life stressful (eg combat/dangerous game) scenario, again implying that until you actually go into such a situation, you’ll never know just how well/badly you’ll manage it."

"It is particularly desirable that the pistol instructor "have seen the elephant." That is to say, he should have at one time engaged in a gunfight, been shot at and shot back."

"Mastiffs are big, strong dogs and hospitalization was required. You do not have to go to war in order to see the elephant. As someone once pointed out, you cannot make an appointment for an emergency."

Then of course there's the back-etymology (I believe it is the original meaning) of a particular coming-of-age-moment. Say no more, say no more!

Reply
T. Franke link
1/28/2021 07:23:02 pm

Frank, why do you pretend that you don't know how I interpret the 9,000 years of Atlantis? If you need help, just watch

"The 9,000 years of Atlantis through the ages":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2RlO_vhk8c

I am here because (a) this forum is sometimes about Atlantis and related subjects, and (b) because this is a forum for skeptics and rational researchers. Not for guys believing in an Atlantis in 9,600 BC.

"Everybody wants to see his pet theory in Plato as enoblement."

You like this, Kent, don't you? :-)

Reply
Frank
2/6/2021 11:05:57 am

Thorwald, sorry for not promptly responding, but I was busy interpreting what I was pretending. First, I'm glad you are here, because it's hard to find anyone here that will take Plato's Atlantis story as one of fact, and not fiction. But let me reiterate the point of my suggestion to you, about your own website. Open it up to a forum of discussion, much like here, if you want to see how others view your hypothesis, and what is logically wrong with it. But with that, I still think that you should frequent this very popular, and successfully forum. Because, if the mountain does not come to you, by all means, come to the mountain.

I don't think that we should blemish this holy place of facts and truth with our own childish and selfish agenda of trying to convince anyone that Plato's Atlantis is, at face value, a true story. Nor that, like you want to propose, Plato staged the story on a platform of some historical reality, or/and a real location(s). Plato's story of Atlantis is either entirely true, or one entirely fictitious. There is no in-between to be had here. And you, Thorwald, and I mean no disrespect, are stuck between the two pillars of Heracles, in wanting your cake, and eating it to. You want it real, but with a cherry on top; lots of cherry-picking. Or to put it better, as straits go, you are stuck “between Scylla and Charybdis.” I have told you before, you are neither a true believer, nor a true skeptic, when it come to Plato's Atlantis. And that position of yours on Sicily and Atlantis, is no man's land. It's not the land that the man, Plato, intended for Atlantis, nor is it the correct historical time.

Like all Atlantis hunters, you are being fooled by Plato himself. And not only the hunters, but also the skeptics are fooled, because the setting of Atlantis in the far past was an intentional misleading clue given by Plato. If fact, even most of the topographical details, as well as the infrastructures given by Plato, using some of those specific details, and measurements, only come to be seen as reality when they are decoded. Yes, decoded, because they have to be interpreted. But, like fruit, those places and times had to become ripe, before we could eat it and digest it, without getting a bad stomach ache those staunch skeptics like Jason get, and it's a similar situation with the Atlantis seekers. The skeptics see it only one way...a fiction for making a philosophical point. The seekers also see it only one way...it has to be their version of Atlantis, as all other versions different from theirs are simply considered wrong. And that's where you stand, my dear Thorwald. It's your Atlantis, or it's the highway, as they say.

I wish you a happy journey!

T. Franke link
2/7/2021 11:03:17 am

Frank: "Plato's story of Atlantis is either entirely true, or one entirely fictitious. There is no in-between to be had here."

That's exactly what religious fanatics say of their sacred texts. And what would be the result if we apply this method to other ancient texts? Everything would be fiction.

And then .... my method is not choosing something "in-between". My method is just the usual method, i.e. decoding what is really meant by looking at the historical context.

Tom M
2/1/2021 12:04:14 am

In 1966 I was 7 years old. I vividly remember watching Captain Kirk for the very first time and thinking I wanna be this guy! Smart, handsome, not afraid to kick some alien ass if need be, and always a ladies man. A real take charge man of action. Then came the mostly awful movies where his toupee looked more like a squirrel napping on his head than real hair. He got old and fat. And Bill Shatner the man, according to those that worked with him, was an egotistical ass hole. Now, at nearly 90 I watch him ham it up on this show and it’s painful to watch. And next month he and Giorgio Tsoukalos will host Ancient Aliens together!. Is there no end to the madness? Some people really do live too long. I guess what I’m saying is, for a 7 year old boy, Kirk was my James Dean. And although I understand Kirk and Shatner are not the same. I can’t see one without the other. There’s something to be said for your childhood TV heroes living too long. Do you ever wonder what James Dean would have become had he lived? Even Marlon Brando was a shadow of his former self in his later years. Ever see The Island of Dr Moreau? It’s painful.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
2/1/2021 09:52:52 am

It's funny how our impressions develop out of the period when we first encounter someone. I am young enough that the first Brando movie I watched actually was "The Island of Dr. Moreau," when I was teenager, and I can't really think of him as anything other than a weird old man in a muumuu, no matter what else I later saw.

My feeling is that if James Dean had lived, he would either have become an angry, bitter middle aged character actor or else flamed out spectacularly and vanished into the desert in whatever the 1950s version of selling art on Etsy was.

Reply
Barbara West
2/11/2021 11:35:46 pm

I was 14 when James Dean died. I lived in San Jose, California, and my neighbors were at the race track when they got the news.

I was at San Jose State as a Freshman in 1959, and I'd hear tales about the Smothers Brothers who were also taking classes. They were appearing at the Purple Onion in San Francisco (I think). I never did see them. Years later, I married Hal West. He and Tommy were Gymnasts together. I heard Tommy was a California State Champion Gymnast!
Before I met Hal West at Lockheed on the Hubble Telescope Program, I was actually dating Dale Dolby. He was the Chief Inventor at Ampex. His brother, Ray, had Dolby Labs in San Francisco. I'll be 80 this year. I like your column.

Barbara West
2/11/2021 11:17:45 pm

I thought Shatner was the cutest guy around. Then I worked for Bell Helicopter in Mirabel, Canada and had to take the daily jabs and remarks about us "stupid" Americans. They all considered themselves to be "10's. I thought they were lucky to be a "4".
When I discovered Shatner was Canadian, he wasn't so cute anymore...
I bought sheets at Sears (full price) the colors ran, and faded in the first wash. When I mentioned this fact to the Canadians, they said, "so what? - they all fade!" I didn't tell them they were buying "seconds". Canadians think they are 10's.i thought they were 4's.
My Work Visa was out at 6 months, so I drove back home in a snowstorm, got home Friday night. On Monday, They called and asked me if I wanted to come back. I said Hell no! I had given up my Apartment, sold or gave away the furniture I had bought, and packed my truck & drove hours and hours to get home.
Also, when a fellow gave me work, then forgot he needed to add to the work, he blamed me for not catching the extra changes. The men could not admit it was their fault... The clerks in the Stores were not nice when I told them in FRENCH that I didn't speak French - and asked them if they spoke English. Un Poo they replied disdainfully, when I replied we could speak in Spanish (in Spanish), all of a sudden, they had perfect English!

Reply
Tom M
2/1/2021 02:06:48 pm

I’m in no way suggesting Bill Shatner is on par with James Dean or Marlon Brando. Only that to a 7 year old boy, Shatner’s Kirk was larger than life.

Your point is well taken. I recall back in the 1980’s an older man I worked with at the time thought Elizabeth Taylor was the most beautiful woman he had ever seen. I remember thinking I just don’t see it. I saw a middle age, overweight woman who had this odd relationship with Micheal Jackson. The first movie I saw with Elizabeth Taylor was “The Taming of the Shrew”. And I thought a competent actress but not overly beautiful. Then I watched some of her early movies from the 1950’s and finally I could see why men of her generation were so taken by her.

It’s not just actors who fall prey to our lofty expectations. Had JFK lived, with his well documented sexual addiction, he’d have most likely turned into an old poon hound much like Bill Clinton. Rubbing shoulders with the Jeffery Epstein of his day. Bobby Kennedy, a mean old drunk, much like his younger brother Teddy. It’s difficult for all of us to age gracefully and not to succumb to our vices.

I could see Dean as an angry, intense character actor in his old age. Much like Dennis Hopper, Christopher Walken, and Harvey Ketiel . Growing old with a certain amount of dignity and composure. The again, he could have gone the way of George Michael. Drugs and illicit sex. Still a better way to go than whoring yourself to the likes of ghosts, Atlantis, Bigfoot, the chupacabra, and the like.

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        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
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        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
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        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
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        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
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        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
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        • Noah's Ark Cables
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      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
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        • Plane of Ether
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      • A Message from Mars
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      • Orville Wright on UFOs
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    • The Supernatural >
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      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
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      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
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      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
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      • The Second Satellite
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      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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